Відео

Didn't know Wim Winters used "weapons", acted like an "ostrich", or "labeled himself a world expert." This certainly is "devasting" rhetoric, a "hydra with a hundred heads." Wim Winters just tells musicians, thankfully so, how to properly use a metronome

Patrick, this is quite serendipitous that I try to get a hold of you and have ran into this particular video to do so. I myself have been shado-banned by the Rick Beato and Adam Neely “music theory” channels. My arguments that were counter to their ideas about the nature of perfect pitch (absolute pitch) as well as my defense of A432hz Scientific Pitch reference received shocking hostile comments sections. To the level of mass hysteria. But it was only later than i began to suspect that not only was i being reported for “misinformation” (meaning disagreement), but that the channels began so not allow ANY comment’s at all. Or that the comments would never be seen, even by a single person. I do hope you see this, Mr. H. // I have an very particular color-association for each note and and over the years have come to indentify as emotive themes that come up for songwriters and composers depending of what key they choose. I just posted an expose of my feeling of B-major, and I used a clip of your explanation of the “angelic” and “fragile” essence B-major. I don’t want attach.a link because i want to make sure that the response here doesn’t get “disappeared.”( Sadly, I’m even trying to mask my syntax here simply to confuse the Al Gore Rhythm.). Mi video is called “How Ghostbusters was written in the key of ghosts,” or you can simply go to _The Acoustic Rabbit Hole_ here and find is as the most recent video (posted thiis Halloween, 2024). Thank you so much for all you do. _The Acoustic Rabbit Hole,_ Bent, New Mexico, USA

A simple consideration of what tempos will accurately express the character, meaning, feelings, structure of the pieces is enough to dismiss the theory and his absurd renditions. Calling it and them "authentic" is pure arrogance and travesty.

Umm... I hear a completely different prelude and fugue from this pianist. Yes, the prelude is in the 'gallante' style. But it's a masterpiece of this style. It could not have been written by Vivaldi, genius that he was. The twists and turns, the chromaticism, the harmonic contortions that Bach offers us--without the slightest hint of bravado, of scholasticism--all this was achieved by Bach as by no other composer. You can often find this in Bach. The D major prelude from Book II is in the style of (Domenico) Scarlatti. But it could not have been written by Scarlatti, genius that he too was. Bach borrowed from the best, but turned things his way. As for the fugue--again, I hear a very different piece. Rather than a lament, a season in hell, I feel a dance element, like the gigue from the g minor English suite, going through the piece. Perhaps they are dancing in hell, freed from the need to sing the staid, stately psalms of the angels. But I digress--Bach would certainly not have had any such thought. No one seems to have noticed that the chromatic second theme is five bars in length(!), but Bach fits it right in with the more conventional first theme, in ways that are at once clever and natural. I guess that's why no one seems to notice the anomaly. Bach weaves it into the texture so that it sounds completely natural--as the harmonic twists and turns in the prelude seem completely natural. Another thing I don't find in the literature--is this the first piece whose tonic key is g# minor? Well, certianly not: Book I preceded it by more than a decade. But did Bach pioneer this remote key? It was rarely used, even after Bach (except of course in sets of 24 preludes). A few pieces by Skryabin, a rarely played polonaise by Chopin--and of course the latter's etude in thirds. But no string quartets. No concerti. ANy sonatas? Google or UA-cam shows very little. And Bach certainly made up the relative major key, which is D# Major. Five sharps and two double-sharps. i've actually tried writing some bars of the prelude as notated in E Flat major. It simply does not work--no matter what even tempering may say. So my hearing of these pieces is quite different. Landowska's 1951 recording gives yet another, much more scholarly, view of the fugue. Glenn Gould's version (it's on UA-cam) is much closer to what I hear in the piece, although his stubborn earlier-than-thou touch, eschewing any legato, is not to my liking. Still, if I were playing on a harpsichord or clavichord, I would strive for Gould's interpretation. But no matter. De gustibus. As Beethoven remarked, Bach is an ocean, and we can look at the work from different perspectives. I enjoy listening, even as I shake my head.

Vous trouverez peut-être une explication à la résistance à la théorie/thèse de M. Winters chez Gaston Bachelard. Bachelard explique dans _La formation de l'esprit scientifique_ (1938). Pourquoi? Le métronome est un objet technique. Les artistes d'aujourd'hui font face à la technique tout comme ceux du 19e siècle : sans formation ils sont sujets à des obstacles épistémologiques exactement de la façon décrite par Bachelard. En passant, en écoutant votre vidéo, je remarque plusieurs sophismes qu'en anglais les logiciens nomment « strawman arguments ». Les accusations de complotisme, de religiosité, de fanatisme... Ne tiennent pas face à des documents musicologiques qui appuient la thèse de Winters. Vous auriez peut-être plus de succès en l'accusant de souffrir de l'effet Dunning-Krueger. Winters est un peu comme Michel Onfray : il a fait ses devoirs. Comme Onfray, Winters lit les archives. Il appuie sa thèse. Il comprend que les pianistes modernes sont sujets à des obstacles épistémologiques qui viennent de leur premier maître qui leur a dit : « Voici comment fonctionne un métronome... ». Le dogmatisme des conservatoires néglige l'histoire de l'utilisation du pendule et du fredonnement de mélodies par Galilée pour mesurer les durées et le pouls avant qu'il n'y ait les objets techniques comme des chronomètres et des métronomes. Winters est aussi dans le camp de Thomas Kuhn. Kuhn, dans _The Structure of Scientific Revolutions_ a inventé le mot « paradigm shift » pour décrire les scientifiques qui s'embarquent dans un projet incompréhensible pour les scientifiques plus anciens, habitué à enseigner leurs propres projets... Kuhn décrit cette résistance bien humaine avec charité. Pensez-vous qu'un scientifique, u un prof de piano, quiont bâti leur réputation, et qui ont fait leur carrière sur une autre thèse --- à propos des métronomes ou sur une physique d'avant Einstein --- vont soudainement faire volte-face et dire « Je me suis trompé toute ma vie. Wim Winters a raison. » Tout à fait improbable. Je pense que Bachelard, Kuhn et Onfray, par leur travail et leur méthode offre d'habiles contrepoids aux modes du complotisme et des arguments spécieux, sans considérer les les enregistrements accélérés jusqu'aux tempi notés par Czerny, ni les documents qui témoignent en faveur de la thèse de Winters. Félicitations malgré tout d'avoir produit quelques vidéos pour ce vaste UA-cam. Soyons un peu plus postmodernes (Lyotard) et pertinents. Examinons les obstacles qui nous ont été inculqués lorsque nous étions jeunes pianistes. Allons au-delà de l'effet Dunning-Kruger. Un de vrai doute --- pas cartésien, car Descartes rusait avec le doute, sachant que ce doute allait s'évanouir face à la certitude de l' existence d'un être divin. Non. Un vrai doute sur la genèse de nos opinions et de la solidité des propos de nos premiers maîtres. Cordialement,

I can not imagine that someone can improvise stretti with 4 voices and inversions on the spot.

Bartok's "Allegro Barbaro" received too much barbarous speeding treatnents.. + arrangements.. Bartok began to add too many metronome merkings in his works but advised his students to ignore them.. Use their initiative + imagination.. Would Weber"s Invitation to the Dance fit into Double beat..slowness ..it was choreigraphed as ",Spectre de la Rose" as were Works by Chopin as Les Sylphides!

First, the result of the theory espoused by Wim Winters and others is anything but disturbing. The music is amazing. It strikes the heart and makes classical music beautiful and good again. Second, Pianopat's description of Wim Winters' "conversion" is inaccurate in the highest degree. Third, it nothing but a slur to say that Wim Winters is saying that Chopin, Hadyn and others were not virtuosos! What a shocking misunderstanding of what Wim Winters is saying! So, right from the start it appears that Pianopat has not even begun to listen to what Wim Winters has said. Do better Mr. Pianopat! Merci!

This is a wonderful video. Some very important arguments are missing: Beethoven's metronome markings for uneven meters which are equally fast and just don't fit the double beat theory. And no one mentions Quantz's "Versuch einer Anweisung die Flute traversiere zu spielen" - probably because it was written before the invention of MM. But Quantz takes 80 beats per minute as a basis for proposing tempi for different contemporary musical characters in relation to his basic 80 bpm. (If you are interested I can explain his method in more detail) Some of his proposed tempi are extremely fast! The book was written only a few years before W.A. birth and it is extremely improbable that "tempo" slowed down at the end of the 18th century and accelerated extremely at the end of the 19th century. And let us not forget M's own instructions for his invention which for me are totally unambiguous. But for me the strongest (maybe for lots of people the weakest) argument is psychology. (But which modern detective would not take psychology into account). People have always strived to perform at their best and to show their abilities- why shouldn't they (sometimes) have played at top speed, just to show off (which is not a claim made by me, since historical musical "duels" are richly documented)? And as you said, it is completely improbable that they could not perform faster than Wim's proposed tempi: Lots of them had lots of time to practice and didn't have all the distractions of our modern times. Scientific practice methods (in contrast to sports) have only got some influence in recent years. And finally (sorry, since you are a pianist, too). Only a pianist could have thought of such a theory. Ask any wind player or singer how they like the double beat theory... Kind regards

👏👏

Some of the hardest pieces ever written there. Amazing stuff.

This Tempest is really ... tempestuous at that speed !!! 🤣😂🤣This is ludicrous to play at that ... slowness ! (And I guess it must also be quite painful.) Well done . 🙃

Wim is a fraud

Bravo Patrick!

A humble pianist with extraordinary skills.

You are my favorite pianist of the generation after Schiff and Aimard : musicality, skill, intellect, integrity. A real Künstler.

Fantastic played

Beautiful playing!

I wish you complete this series :)

Even Aldo Roberto Pessolano can not keep up with Czerny's tempi in single beat: ua-cam.com/video/Igr6xny5GAc/v-deo.htmlsi=cfaUjqH2NYZnxIKy Here he plays half note = 81-82, but 96 is indicated!!! Other example: ua-cam.com/video/FhBzBQdkTc4/v-deo.htmlsi=GkUlItI4PJcqwHlD he plays with incredible speed!!! But unfortunately it's not enough, he plays the half note = 108 for a few bars and then slows down to 100 at the end. Are there people who are able to play the whole piece at 108? Was Czerny a superhuman who wrote exercises for extraterrestrials?

thx inter3sting

I learnt this as a teenager. So versatile and fluid. Great to improvise with.

Ignore Winters. Don't waste your time on this man. I would like to meet the singers who can apply this nonsense in f.e.Mozart Operas. Collective hyperventilation is a given.

Thank you for making this video. There is an unfortunate scarcity of material on this wonderful piece. Great performance too!

Other than the obvious lack of conviction and enthusiasm in the playing, it sounds fine to me at this tempo.

Yeah, Winter's "theory" is amazing in the sense that apparently many people actually believe it! As others have said, if I use the Whole Beat theory, I transform from an amateur pianist with my tech limit as the Beethoven Sonata 8 and turn into oner capable of playing the Op 57 with no trouble. The concept of whole beat is absurd.

Whether this is the intended speed or not, why do you have to be nasty and call it a "pseudo theory". It is a theory. I happen to enjoy these tempos better than the usual ones, for what that's worth (both playing and listening). And this way you can play legatos with finger swapping and that faster bit with right hand below left works.

Anyone else find it impossible to hear the subject of the fugue in D major, hearing it as G major instead? (melody starting on a big V - I, then ending on the dominant)

Remarquable ! Merci. Vous avez entièrement raison. Cet ostinato est celui de la Passion selon St Jean en effer.

Et la suite?

From a purely technical standpoint, any of Medtner's sonatas are better than Rachmaninoff's solo sonatas (cello sonata is more sound from the perspective of compositional technique). I don't find them interchangeable because their spirit is different enough, and so it doesn't matter which is better because we cannot really substitute either for the other.

I know this is coming late to a party long ended, but I think there is still an unexplored consequence of the double-beat idea. If Wim claims that Don Giovani lasted 5 hours (beating out Tristan by 70 years!), and that operas in general were of such extreme length, one has to wonder what other performance art was like as well. For instance, if we think of opera as the equivalent of stage plays with music, and how recitatives are supposed to mimic spoken word in a way, then wouldn't this imply that stage plays would ALSO be taking ~3-5 hours? If all music was slower back then, would aristocrats be doing waltzes for 10-15 minutes, per dance? Would peasants listen and dance to a mazurka that lasted 10 minutes? Would sung masses take nearly 3 hours long? Would priests and monks who sung the Divine office every day spend over an hour on each of the 6 hours? There are real world consequences for doubling the length of all music, such that people would hardly have time to do anything else!

At the final part is really fantastic 🎉

Thank you very much to make those series of VDO explaining story of all pieces Java suite in detail. We all love Java and INDONESIA !!!

Will anyone help me? I was unfortunate enough to find a video of this Prelude and Fugue performed by Thomas Hughes. I was shocked by his playing and information. Because of the shock, I was unable to inform him in a matter-of-fact manner, his grave lack of knowlegde so provoked me, that I expressed myself disrespectfully and rudely. After the shock had dropped somewhat, I realized my mistake, deleted my post, and wrote a new - 100% factual, showing Wim Winters videos and other UA-cam-videos. That post was deleted. Okay, I understand his anger after my first disrespectful attempt, but someone has to tell him he hrave flaws he conveys in his video. I have not yet learned to mention a link in a comment, therefore you guys have to search yourself: «Praeludium & Fuga XXI in Bb major book I Thomas Hughes.» He concludes quite provocatievely: «So, enjoy the piece in its historical accuracy!» I am prevented from commenting, but someone needs to make him aware of factual errors that should be changed.

these videos deserve more views!

I think you try quite hard to make it sound as unconvincing as possible.

ua-cam.com/video/0oh5v8hhs3Y/v-deo.html

Exactly what Beethoven intended. All you have to do is make the playback speed 2x.

Amazinf analysis! Loved it

Bravo! The walking bass emphasizes the retrospective nature of the set-the constantly shifting harmonies, in contrast to the more galant pieces, in which Bach gives us a simpler bass line, often a drum bass, or even a Murky bass.

I found WW channel quite interesting in many regards but his double-beat theory confuses me and not the least because its so horribly unmusical.

Maelzel’s instructions says the following. ‘Each single beat or tick is PART OF the intended time. And should be counted as such. But NOT the two beats produced by the motion from one side to the other.’ That means if the motion from one side to the other is NOT …PART OF the intended time. It IS the intended time. Thus making it whole beat.

I want to thank you again for this wonderfull Bach series that to me has become the point of reference since you released it two years ago. It is the most authoritative and insightfull analysis of the WTK. I think that it was a sophism in the historical performance practice - ranging from the motoric approach in Richter and Gould to the more advanced ideas on articulation and ornaments in Leonardt or Schiff - to avoid any romantic impulses in playing Bach. We have such a large repertoire to chose from today that it becomes possible to save your extacy for Scriabin, your fire for Albeniz, your mysticism for Messiaen, your humanity for Schubert, your gallanteries for Mozart, your profundity for Bruckner and your tears for Chopin. Bach ovioulsy did not have that luxury. He had to express the full range of human emotions in his own music. Your playing shows a side of Bach that is so obvious (the human, devotional, spiritual, mystical side) that it is almost incomprehensible that this aspect has been ignored for so long in favour of autistic motorisms, joyless dogma's or gallant superficialities. This quality is probably most apparent in your approach of the ornaments. Instead of the Schiff ornaments that are charming gallant mannerisms (that would be totally out of place in Debussy) your ornaments have a mystical quality that does not only suit many different styles but in the end brings out the devotional spriritual aspect of Bach (probably the most essential part of his art) better then gallant mannerisms could ever do. You have become one of my favorite modern pianists.

We have spent the last 3 years hearing people use the accusation of conspiracy theory . It is the most anti intellectual condesending means of arguing an opposing point of view. These people deserve nothing but our distain. Bravo Wim, continue your passionate erudite envestigations. ...

The arguments presented in your video are compelling and presented in an articulate and comprehensive manner. Thank you! One of the most compelling arguments against Wim's claims is the fact that we do in fact know the actual duration of pieces as reported even during their debut performances. This alone should settle the argument, IMHO.

Pat, please don't fall into despair, there is life beyond Wim Winters' channel. I think, the discussion is necessary, so it isn't the best sollution to exclude anybody. Even if his/her arguments are in our opinion pointless.

I think I am still alive. Only the battery on my device is dying

At one point in time the music witch decided to make music go really fast. It was April 1st 1851. But now our Wim has figured it out. And is now leading us back correcting the spell.

Haha, right. And imagine each other click on the off