What’s even more crazy is that if you find all the Return to Ostagar codex entries, you find out it wasn’t Cailan’s idea to marry Celene. It was Eamon’s, and Cailan was pissed at the suggestion. Celene and Cailan most likely just wanted to put the occupation behind them and rebuild alliances and such. So if one wants to go with the theory that the “marriage alliance” rumour was a partial motive for Loghain to quit the battle at Ostagar, that would mean Loghain let Cailan die over a miscommunication…
@Ethan Schultz The marriage yes. Loghain didn't act because of a potential marriage he didn't know of. The invitation of the Orlaisien army and potential thawing of diplomatic relations were enough. Loghain essential was a hardliner still fighting an enemy whom had moved on.
@@mysticonthehill Orlais never lost interest in Ferelden. Celene just used a different approach; instead of conquering Ferelden by force, she sought to acquire ownership of it through marriage. We're talking about a woman who ascended her throne by assassinating the previous emperor; and an empire that has actual history of betraying Nevarra after the Third Blight. There's absolutely no way _they_ didn't have any ulterior motives. Hell, Gaspard himself said he wanted to invade Ferelden and Nevarra again.
It's a shame Loghain can be recruited only so late into the game. It feels like he was written for a longer role as a companion, rather than just the very end after the Landsmeet. His banter with the other companions and dialogue here, (during the DLC) indicates he would have spent more time in the Warden's company, rather than just the few days going to Redcliffe after the Landsmeet and then rushing back to Denerim to defeat the Blight.
Would there have been a lore-written way of having Loghain in our party early? perhaps Arl Howe backstabs him too, and we were only just in time to save him in Denerim and then escape. Though that'd also be hard to write, there'd need to be loads of reasons/explanations, and why the people of Ferelden should trust Howe's words over a War Hero. Either way, Loghain is fine where he is as an antagonist. Most well-written one at that.
@@AuroraExhale Wished that there was an option to do Denerim first, instead of later on in the game. Would've been good replay value, and getting to decide whether to follow Alistair's advice or Morrigan's.
Judging by some cut content on the Broken Circle quest it seems that originally you would be able to go to the Landsmeet immediately after healing Arl Eamon, even if you didn't complete the other main quests, so originally you might have been able to recruit Loghain way earlier.
Although I despise his deed of leaving Cailan to die and lying to the public about Grey Wardens' betrayal, I do agree about the King's attempt of marrying Celene as well as casting Anora, the woman who loves him, aside. Still, I don't regret killing Loghain (as the Warden). Even if the retreat to preserve lives of his soldiers as a justification, he should've never have crossed the Grey Wardens with slander.
I wanted to recruit him, it was a sound idea and my Warden was a pragmatist for the most part, but it was too much of a betrayal in regards to the comradary I spent the whole game building up with Alistair.
@@lytherael2309 at the end I half wanted to make him become a grey warden as a sort of penance for him, but instead I gave the kill to Alistar, who has more right than my character to kill logain.
I think Loghain's decision to quit the field can be debated on and on, and I'm not sure it's ever been confirmed whether or not it was an unwinnable fight. But I think from his perspective, he made a difficult but seemingly necessary choice, and when it came to dealing with the consequences of his decision he made piss poor and fucked up choices out of, again, a perceived necessity. He didn't want the Grey Wardens interfering with the preservation of the Ferelden throne or military so he sent hired killers after them. He didn't want an influential noble rallying forces against him and crowning a different ruler so he poisoned Eamon. Ironically, his decisions were very Orlesian. He did everything to consolidate power and the power of his daughter.
Loghain's VA is the stellar Simon Templeman, the same man who voiced Kain in the fantastic well written Legacy of Kain series. I loved that game series so much, the dark atmosphere, the complex characters and the stellar writing made some video games that felt more like great theater plays. Truly one of the best story driven RPGs ever made. Thus i always recognize him in other games and i go like a monkey: "oooh, ooooh, that is KAIN!!! oooh!!!" One of the best english voice actors i have ever heard in games. I hope he is still around on the scene.
Return to Ostigar would be chilling for me if we spent more time with Duncan and Calin in game more, but story wise I know all of our wardens spent weeks traveling with Duncan and probably a few days or more seeing and hearing how both Calin and Logain act. Maybe I could use it as writing fuel to make a story of my grey warden’s Adventures if I ever got around to it.
Loghain is so weirdly written; you can see his obvious hatred for Orlais, and he knew about Cailan's deals with Orlais, for which he hated him, but if he didn't know about the possibility of marriage, then why did he plan this entire shit? His daughter was set to be the queen, with the possibility of manipulating Cailan into better decisions, yet he both sabotaged the kingdom before the battle and didn't allow for retreat when proposed. It's just so weird that he doesn't admit his miscalculations and tries to justify his retreat when there is no shown reason for his actions before and after the battle.
The deal was that Cailin would break his marriage with Anora and marry Celene to cement the alliance between Orlais and Ferelden which Loghain considers as treason thus leading to all the shit that went during Origins
You're wrong. He didn't know that Cailan planned to set Anora aside for Celene. Loghain retreated because the battle was a lost cause, not because he wanted to kill Cailan.
Every time I hear Loghain's voice, I immediately think it's Kain from "The Legacy of Kain" franchise talking. And not just because they share the same voice actor.
So much effort and brilliant writing for a character so hated that most players kill him anyway, this is why I love Origins. No matter people's personal stances on Loghain, there's no doubt he was written very well. I do not regret keeping him alive, sacrificing my friendship with Alistair. There was a blight to solve, and a bitter man to redeem. Alistair can live on without me, maybe one day even forgive me. Until then, Loghain has every chance to right his wrongs.
@@swordofkhaine8464 In order to make him king and giving Ferelden stability and peace while putting a battle hardened general to good use and giving him a chance to right some wrongs instead of throwing him away by chopping off his head? Yes. Every time.
@@swordofkhaine8464 I didn't "throw Alistair away", he got to rule as the king he was meant to be with a very capable queen at his side, while an accomplished and capable general joined the thinning Warden ranks to avoid death by poorly timed revenge. The only thing I lost was a friendship I could mend with time, and even if I couldn't that was a very small price to pay for a life. Loghain yielded. *Yielded.* I understood Alistair's anger but I would not execute a defeated opponent *in front of his own daughter* because of some twisted idea of righteousness. Alistair needed time to grieve, time that the blight didn't allow. Honestly, killing Loghain would do him more harm than good.
@@lurkman5581 Loghain's actions indicate losing touch with reality, due to his paranoia. Mentally he was not fit for service. He couldn't even hand-pick his allies well enough. He chose someone like Howe to be his ally. Nearly all of his decisions from the promise to Uldred to trying to assassinate the grey wardens to poisoning Eamon with Jowan (another incompetent character) were utter failures and had disastrous consequences for Fereldan. And we as players saw these things first-hand. Infact without the grey wardens' plot armour, Loghain would have delivered Fereldan straight to the blight and his arc from hero to villain would be complete.
It was planned that you could, for a while at least. I can't find it anymore but there was recorded dialogue for both of those men at Ostagar together.
@@willemvanstaden3292 Honestl,y I really dont think they could have a redemption arch together. Although Loghain isnt a bad guy, and I end up liking him, i really think Alistair has every right to hate his guts for what he did to.. well.. basically his family.
Ok, I just finished Return to Ostagar the other day, and I know it's clear that some graphical mods are being used here. But these cutscenes, are they mods too?
I'm sure youvebeen asked many times, but since I couldn't find any comments about it, is there any possible way for you to share your mod files for these cutscenes. I would really like to have these in my gane, similar to the bench eavesdropping mod. This would add an insane value to the experience
Unfortunately, the files are not in a state to be shared as mods, as I made them specifically for the recording. As it is right now, the cutscenes can only be triggered via console script, and they require the Warden to be in the area where the cutscene takes place. Sometimes, it is also necessary for the participating companions to be in the party, etc. Maybe I'll tweak them someday and turn them into actual mods, but that would take an enormous amount of time.
@@Makilita even if you release just a few of the cutscenes sprinkled around different areas, you would be an absolute LEGEND. These would literally be the best mods for this game, as it contributes a ton towards the experience and immersion. Thank you for replying nonetheless.
I never betray Alistair to save Loghain, so it's a little good to see how things are, with him there. Does not change my opinions about Loghain and his daughter. Dragon Age Origion is the best game(of DA-series) to describe Norwegian history and saga. Too bad the others ruin it, because the Americans complain that it is not American enough...
This is news to me. Every American I’ve heard from love the game fervently. I haven’t heard of these said complaints. 2 came out terrible because it was rushed out and 3 wasn’t that bad. But again corporate interference hobbled it out the door because they wouldn’t let the devs and writers do the thing they are good at for marketability sake. So if by Americans you mean the shareholders and CEOs then yes you would be correct
@@ShadowProject01 . I actually think DAI wasn't that good, and DA2 was good (just not as good as Origins) but could had been better if it hadn't been rushed.
What’s even more crazy is that if you find all the Return to Ostagar codex entries, you find out it wasn’t Cailan’s idea to marry Celene. It was Eamon’s, and Cailan was pissed at the suggestion. Celene and Cailan most likely just wanted to put the occupation behind them and rebuild alliances and such.
So if one wants to go with the theory that the “marriage alliance” rumour was a partial motive for Loghain to quit the battle at Ostagar, that would mean Loghain let Cailan die over a miscommunication…
So what you're telling me is that Eamon is the real villain here
Ah miscommunication, he who felled kingdoms and end relationships with a single breath.
@Ethan Schultz The marriage yes. Loghain didn't act because of a potential marriage he didn't know of. The invitation of the Orlaisien army and potential thawing of diplomatic relations were enough. Loghain essential was a hardliner still fighting an enemy whom had moved on.
@@mysticonthehill Orlais never lost interest in Ferelden. Celene just used a different approach; instead of conquering Ferelden by force, she sought to acquire ownership of it through marriage.
We're talking about a woman who ascended her throne by assassinating the previous emperor; and an empire that has actual history of betraying Nevarra after the Third Blight. There's absolutely no way _they_ didn't have any ulterior motives.
Hell, Gaspard himself said he wanted to invade Ferelden and Nevarra again.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 dont forget that Celene burned down alienages too
precisely why I always let Celene die in Inquisition and put Briala in charge
I wonder how a conversation between Wyenne and Flemeth would've been like.
It's a shame Loghain can be recruited only so late into the game. It feels like he was written for a longer role as a companion, rather than just the very end after the Landsmeet. His banter with the other companions and dialogue here, (during the DLC) indicates he would have spent more time in the Warden's company, rather than just the few days going to Redcliffe after the Landsmeet and then rushing back to Denerim to defeat the Blight.
Would there have been a lore-written way of having Loghain in our party early? perhaps Arl Howe backstabs him too, and we were only just in time to save him in Denerim and then escape. Though that'd also be hard to write, there'd need to be loads of reasons/explanations, and why the people of Ferelden should trust Howe's words over a War Hero.
Either way, Loghain is fine where he is as an antagonist. Most well-written one at that.
@@AuroraExhale Wished that there was an option to do Denerim first, instead of later on in the game. Would've been good replay value, and getting to decide whether to follow Alistair's advice or Morrigan's.
Judging by some cut content on the Broken Circle quest it seems that originally you would be able to go to the Landsmeet immediately after healing Arl Eamon, even if you didn't complete the other main quests, so originally you might have been able to recruit Loghain way earlier.
@@kikaioshin6700are you referring to loghain having his own dream in the fade with maric and Cailan
@@laningsmith9163 that and there would be an option to try to free Alistair from his trance in the fade by reminding that he was the king of Ferelden
Although I despise his deed of leaving Cailan to die and lying to the public about Grey Wardens' betrayal, I do agree about the King's attempt of marrying Celene as well as casting Anora, the woman who loves him, aside.
Still, I don't regret killing Loghain (as the Warden). Even if the retreat to preserve lives of his soldiers as a justification, he should've never have crossed the Grey Wardens with slander.
Or an assassination attempt. He did hire Zevran to kill the grey warden
@@ShadowProject01 which extends my point.
I wanted to recruit him, it was a sound idea and my Warden was a pragmatist for the most part, but it was too much of a betrayal in regards to the comradary I spent the whole game building up with Alistair.
@@lytherael2309 at the end I half wanted to make him become a grey warden as a sort of penance for him, but instead I gave the kill to Alistar, who has more right than my character to kill logain.
I think Loghain's decision to quit the field can be debated on and on, and I'm not sure it's ever been confirmed whether or not it was an unwinnable fight. But I think from his perspective, he made a difficult but seemingly necessary choice, and when it came to dealing with the consequences of his decision he made piss poor and fucked up choices out of, again, a perceived necessity. He didn't want the Grey Wardens interfering with the preservation of the Ferelden throne or military so he sent hired killers after them. He didn't want an influential noble rallying forces against him and crowning a different ruler so he poisoned Eamon.
Ironically, his decisions were very Orlesian. He did everything to consolidate power and the power of his daughter.
Loghain's VA is the stellar Simon Templeman, the same man who voiced Kain in the fantastic well written Legacy of Kain series. I loved that game series so much, the dark atmosphere, the complex characters and the stellar writing made some video games that felt more like great theater plays. Truly one of the best story driven RPGs ever made. Thus i always recognize him in other games and i go like a monkey: "oooh, ooooh, that is KAIN!!! oooh!!!"
One of the best english voice actors i have ever heard in games. I hope he is still around on the scene.
i was very sad when he didn't reprise his role as narrator for the tactics ogre remake intro 😢
he also voices admiral gerrel in mass effect!
My god this is so much better than I thought. And the banter between Loghain and Wynne. Fantastic.
Return to Ostigar would be chilling for me if we spent more time with Duncan and Calin in game more, but story wise I know all of our wardens spent weeks traveling with Duncan and probably a few days or more seeing and hearing how both Calin and Logain act.
Maybe I could use it as writing fuel to make a story of my grey warden’s Adventures if I ever got around to it.
a story fact i love is that each “origin” role occurs in the game. You just so happened to be the one Duncan found. Is it fate or chance?
Wynne/Loghain banter feels more appropriate for the grim setting in Ostagar's ruins in my opinion.
Ooo that's right, there are DLCs.
Completely forgot about that 😅
We can't leave out the DLCs like Awakening or Witch Hunt. You know the most memorable DLCs and not the most forgotten.
Loghain is so weirdly written; you can see his obvious hatred for Orlais, and he knew about Cailan's deals with Orlais, for which he hated him, but if he didn't know about the possibility of marriage, then why did he plan this entire shit? His daughter was set to be the queen, with the possibility of manipulating Cailan into better decisions, yet he both sabotaged the kingdom before the battle and didn't allow for retreat when proposed. It's just so weird that he doesn't admit his miscalculations and tries to justify his retreat when there is no shown reason for his actions before and after the battle.
Some people are idiots, including BioWare characters
One answer: power maddens
The deal was that Cailin would break his marriage with Anora and marry Celene to cement the alliance between Orlais and Ferelden which Loghain considers as treason thus leading to all the shit that went during Origins
@@ZrodyApo . And that was Eamon's plans, NOT Cailan's.
You're wrong. He didn't know that Cailan planned to set Anora aside for Celene. Loghain retreated because the battle was a lost cause, not because he wanted to kill Cailan.
OH HELL YEAH, I WAS WAITING FOR THIS
Every time I hear Loghain's voice, I immediately think it's Kain from "The Legacy of Kain" franchise talking. And not just because they share the same voice actor.
So much effort and brilliant writing for a character so hated that most players kill him anyway, this is why I love Origins. No matter people's personal stances on Loghain, there's no doubt he was written very well.
I do not regret keeping him alive, sacrificing my friendship with Alistair. There was a blight to solve, and a bitter man to redeem. Alistair can live on without me, maybe one day even forgive me. Until then, Loghain has every chance to right his wrongs.
there's a blight to solve so you remove the guy who's been with you throughout the journey, and replace him with medieval Alex Jones.
@@swordofkhaine8464
In order to make him king and giving Ferelden stability and peace while putting a battle hardened general to good use and giving him a chance to right some wrongs instead of throwing him away by chopping off his head? Yes. Every time.
@@swordofkhaine8464 I didn't "throw Alistair away", he got to rule as the king he was meant to be with a very capable queen at his side, while an accomplished and capable general joined the thinning Warden ranks to avoid death by poorly timed revenge. The only thing I lost was a friendship I could mend with time, and even if I couldn't that was a very small price to pay for a life.
Loghain yielded. *Yielded.* I understood Alistair's anger but I would not execute a defeated opponent *in front of his own daughter* because of some twisted idea of righteousness. Alistair needed time to grieve, time that the blight didn't allow.
Honestly, killing Loghain would do him more harm than good.
@@lurkman5581 Loghain's actions indicate losing touch with reality, due to his paranoia. Mentally he was not fit for service.
He couldn't even hand-pick his allies well enough. He chose someone like Howe to be his ally. Nearly all of his decisions from the promise to Uldred to trying to assassinate the grey wardens to poisoning Eamon with Jowan (another incompetent character) were utter failures and had disastrous consequences for Fereldan.
And we as players saw these things first-hand.
Infact without the grey wardens' plot armour, Loghain would have delivered Fereldan straight to the blight and his arc from hero to villain would be complete.
@@Hawaiian_Pizza_Enjoyer military and political affairs are very consequential. You don't get to do what Loghain did and walk away with an apology.
That comment from Wynne to Alistair about waking up beside each other has me Wondering how a romance between her would've been like.
Why can't we have both Alistair AND Loghain as companions? Both are well-written
I think it's very obvious the reason Alistair doesn't like Loghain.
Do you really not know why? LMAO
@@CrossandWire I know WHY - but it would have been nice to have them both; like with a redemption arch quest between Alistair and Loghain...
It was planned that you could, for a while at least. I can't find it anymore but there was recorded dialogue for both of those men at Ostagar together.
@@willemvanstaden3292 Honestl,y I really dont think they could have a redemption arch together. Although Loghain isnt a bad guy, and I end up liking him, i really think Alistair has every right to hate his guts for what he did to.. well.. basically his family.
peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reason.
0:39 oh she actually called him son
Ok, I just finished Return to Ostagar the other day, and I know it's clear that some graphical mods are being used here. But these cutscenes, are they mods too?
amazing
Ew what the fuck did you do to my girl Wynne
I'm sure youvebeen asked many times, but since I couldn't find any comments about it, is there any possible way for you to share your mod files for these cutscenes. I would really like to have these in my gane, similar to the bench eavesdropping mod. This would add an insane value to the experience
Unfortunately, the files are not in a state to be shared as mods, as I made them specifically for the recording. As it is right now, the cutscenes can only be triggered via console script, and they require the Warden to be in the area where the cutscene takes place. Sometimes, it is also necessary for the participating companions to be in the party, etc.
Maybe I'll tweak them someday and turn them into actual mods, but that would take an enormous amount of time.
@@Makilita even if you release just a few of the cutscenes sprinkled around different areas, you would be an absolute LEGEND. These would literally be the best mods for this game, as it contributes a ton towards the experience and immersion. Thank you for replying nonetheless.
I've never played this dlc. So you're telling me Cailan could have hooked up with Celene, and this was never brought up in Inquisition?!
Your female Warden is really beautiful, congratulations.
How do the graphics look so real in this video. Not for 360 and PS3. Which dont know for p.c.
So are all the locked rooms chests etc you can only open as rogue character....are those accessible in return to ostagar? Im just wondering 🤔
I never betray Alistair to save Loghain, so it's a little good to see how things are, with him there.
Does not change my opinions about Loghain and his daughter.
Dragon Age Origion is the best game(of DA-series) to describe Norwegian history and saga.
Too bad the others ruin it, because the Americans complain that it is not American enough...
@YourLadyKnight It truly is amazing all the insane crap people come up with to complain about
This is news to me. Every American I’ve heard from love the game fervently. I haven’t heard of these said complaints.
2 came out terrible because it was rushed out and 3 wasn’t that bad. But again corporate interference hobbled it out the door because they wouldn’t let the devs and writers do the thing they are good at for marketability sake. So if by Americans you mean the shareholders and CEOs then yes you would be correct
@@ShadowProject01 . I actually think DAI wasn't that good, and DA2 was good (just not as good as Origins) but could had been better if it hadn't been rushed.
lol last time I checked, BioWare is a Canadian company.
@@JhonPittsburg Inquisition is a bad game
Что за причёска у главной героини ? Это мод ? Подскажите, пожалуйста, название... Могла бы поставить в свою игру...
These cutscenes do not exist on console weird
They also don't exist on pc, I believe it is modded
Vids author used a toolset to create these cutscenes. There is nothing like this in any version of the game.
The dialogue is just spoken as you walk around the overworld and discover hidden items
read the video description