LET'S TALK TURBOS-DOES RICHARD HATE WATER/METH INJECTION?
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- THE LAST SEVERAL TIMES I HAVE TESTED WATER/METH INJECTION, IT HAS SHOW TO PRODUCE LESS POWER AND POOR DISTRIBUTION THAN A COMPARABLE INTERCOOLER, BUT THE CURE IS GOING TO BE PRE-TURBO INJECTION! I CAN'T WAIT TO TEST. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?
Suggested reading " Performance of a Supercharged Aero Engine " edited by Sir Stanley Hooker c1941 a series of tech manuals ,plus post war publications by Hooker , Liversedge et al by Rolls Rolls dealing with the development of the Rolls Royce Merlin among others . All the data needed has been around since the end of WW2 .
The doubling of output of the Merlin from 1000 bhp pre war to 2000 bhp by wars end , the use of Boeings high altitude plant to transform previous impirical methods of calculating effects of boost at altitude by real time analysis . The development of supercharger impellers , supercharging from single stage single speed through to 2 stage 2 speed . Effects of fuel injection to water/ methanol injection pre supercharger impeller . All the info required accessible in the British Library from as long as I can remember and probably now available from that source online.
The design of the Merlin engine cooling system is well known to many . We have 3 Merlin engines by R-R , Packhard and Buick at the museum . For those not as well versed , the Merlin a 4 valve per cylinder V12 , mimicked by most modern vehicle engines today , entered service with a crank driven supercharger with w/w inter and after cooling , using water ethanol from the US as the cooling medium for both engine and the charge coolers . The ethanol was replaced by glycol developed in the UK because of the inflammable nature of ethanol during handling and use . The main charge cooler housed in a separate unit , the after coolers integrated with the inlet manifold. The carburettor fitted upstream of the supercharger as was the later Bendix Stromberg then SU fuel injection . A sick through configuration . This resulted in full atomisation of fuel and as power levels increased beyond the capability of the 100/150 RON fuel being used , fuel injection then water glycol injection ro minimise detonation issues both injected straight into the primary supercharger impeller to ensure full atomisation at each stage of cooling on its long torturous route through the length of ducting into the cylinders . In our examples there is little evidence of etching or cavitation caused by injected spray hitting the impellers or drop out of fuel/water glycol in the inlet tract . Although these engines were recovered after crash damage ( 2 with crank failure 1 shot down) during the late stages of W 2 with at least one being close to its 100 hrs full service requirement, the combustion chambers and 2 spark plugs in each cylinder demonstrate excellent and controlled flame front propagation despite being compromised in their final moments.
Water glycol injection had been available to R-R throughout development of the Merlin but had not been used until power levels exceeded the higher levels of its designed output figure relying solely on its reliable and efficient induction charge cooling system .
Experience by using this knowledge on modern vehicle engines over the decades has shown that simply replacing a/a intercooler with the same size correctly designed w/w type results in dramatic net gains in power output after correcting A/F ratio in carburrated or injected engines , and should the need arise for further cooling of the induction charge by evaporation ( ideally one should not rely on yet another serviceable item like water/gl6col injection for several reasons) the approach adopted by Rolls Royce of pre impellor injection in the 1940s for atomisation has worked successfully and flawlessly and eliminates the need for expensive high pressure atomisation pumps . A well designed permanent induction cooling system should feature as a priority item every bit as much as the choice of pistons in the build of a high performance supercharged engine .
Richard. This may be controversial but here goes. Don't use methanol and just spray water. Meth was used for injection in ww2 fighter planes to stop freezing of the water. Straight water has much better cooling than any fuel including gas or meth. We run rich mixtures to allow extra fuel to cool combustion chamber. Water is much better. So run the correct amount of water only and increase timing AND raise AFR. Tuning is obviously needed but I believe you can go as lean as 13.x through the curve. You don't need meth as long as you aren't worried about freezing temps. Intercooler works great obviously but with added Straight water you benefit from less stress on exhaust valves, cleaning pistons etc. When 1cc of water flashes to steam it occupies 1600cc of space giving combustion process more 'torque '
I am a retired engineer who has worked on high pressure steam boilers my entire life. The power of converting water to steam cannot be forgotten.
Also water is cheap. Meth is not. An issue that can be detrimental spraying pre turbo is something called steam erosion. Personally I wouldn't do that. Directly after throttle body or port injection is safer imo. Pre turbo may cause flashing to steam way to early and erosion should be a concern
Sounds like David Vizard
@@paulchang3336yet vizard runs preturbo water injection.
Water meth injection pre roots blower is great! Run many track laps in up to 40 deg C ambient using that. But if you let the nozzle block through lack of checking and cleaning....well, it didn't end well for the pistons!
Yes - a bold statement, let's see.. Proceed to testing please..
intercooler and water/meth for those of us without access to e85
Yup, this
Yep
The guy with the heating problem needs to test to see if exhaust is in the water. They make kits for it.
I run it pre-turbo.... on a draw through setup. Very long intake runners/manifold. Air cooled engine with super hot cylinder head temps. coming in at 10lbs, it really solves detonation problems, and provides a noticeable power boost. The issue i have be told, is damage to the turbo impeller. but for me, its worth the trouble. Very space limited so this works.
Turbo v-dubs are legit
You only get blade damage if the nozzle doesn’t mist very well.
I’ve been looking to experiment on this but I haven’t had the opportunity to do so. I’m currently spraying post intercooler.
@@BrodeyDoverosx
Small pre-turbo nozzle increases density/efficiency while post turbo is more effective at cooling the charge.
Run a test using 100% methonal because water does not burn. Running 100% methonal with 91 or 93 octane will turn fuel into a flex fuel.
Using a Holley Methonal kit at max psi atimizes fuel better. Along with boost will flow through a EFI intake just fine.
Water/meth pre Intercooler will pool in the intercooler. I’ve personally Had this happen on my Cummins.
Doesn't happen on all setups, I run pre turbo and don't have a water pooling issue.
What about kits that are per cylinder? That should solve the distribution problem. I'm looking at doing it on my Focus ST to solve carbon buildup, plus a catch can.
95oct (US 91?) and 50/50 water meth is very similar to C16 as far as tuning goes. I would always recommend an intercooler regardless unless packaging isn't an option and pre turbo or nozzles in the volute (comp housing) is not detrimental to the comp wheel or pooling in the intercooler...
How about reaching out to any water methanol injection specialist and asking them for feedback as they are more than happy to give quantities used and where
DO YOU HAVE DISTRIBUTION DATA (AF IN ALL CYLINDERS)? I WELCOME MORE INFO FROM RELIABLE SOURCES. OFTEN TIMES PEOPLE WHO SELL PRODUCTS, DO NOT PROVIDE ACCURATE INFO ON TESTING THOSE PRODUCTS.
@@richardholdener1727I bet aquamist has that info.
if your running an inline engine with a hyper tune intake manifold, distribution is pretty even pre throttle body.
I have made some well over 600 whp on pump fuel with water meth on a 2jz. I have since added a second meth kit that is pure meth multi port for over 700 whp on pump. both systems work pretty good together.
a long-runner ls intake and short runner after market 2J intake are quite different
it does work very well and port injection is easy to tap a thread the 6 injectors into intake runners on a 2jz and works better on the street than e85 because meth injection only works when the motor is hot and boosting not cold starts and cruising like e85 filling your motor oil with condensation. Also it's cheaper to run daily to work.
@@sean.d7171 That is exactly right
@A2J_Tim I think Richard is not a fan of methanol injection because its unsafe and like a bandaid compared to e85 and hes right but some of us have to use it, no e85 at the pump in New Zealand only 98ron same as US 93. We use it for knock suppression not cooling we have intercoolers. Best trick is to put a pressure switch on the methanol line that enables high boost map so if it drops pressure It goes back to the pump gas tune before it even gets a chance to melt pistons.
@@sean.d7171 I disagree with the bandaide statement, I have been using meth systems for 20 years, I have a few snow kits on 1 car with no saftys and its never failed me, How ever I do an inspection and testing on the system once a year. On another car I have I have an aqua mist system that has a few built in saftys than can trigger the waste gate back to spring pressure, that system has never failed me aswell. My pure system is completely controlled by my ecu and its basically a fuel system with fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator. I will never burn e85 for the reasons you previously mentioned and I get more driving out of a tank of pump gas, no need to burn high octane fuel until its needed.
On my setup I run the nozzle in the Turbo outlet in the compressor housing. Pro Meth told me to do it for my setup to get the most cooling. Only run meth water mix for cooling and the simple look. this goes into two pipes, twins, into the hat and blows through a Super Sniper EFI into a Performer RPM Air gap. this is feeding a 306 SBF 8.6Cr engine. I guess my question is your testing results mainly for new style fuel injected engines?
I think this is a great test and am very interested to learn about how the distribution changes and the temperature drop. I'm more interested to see you try this on a car that is a full car; not just the engine, up on the dyno, and have you do a tune to see how far you can increase the boost pressure, and DIRECTLY compare it to the exact same car with the fuel changed out to E50-E85, how far you can tune up the boost pressure and what the HP and Torque graph results are from each application that will result in what power and torque actually make it to the road.
Is there a difference also using E85 or water-methanol on different injection type engines; direct injection/port injection/direct+port injection?
yes there is-and testing on any other dyno shows similar differential changes
Water/Meth injection is the bomb. Pd blower pre rotor with 50 gph nozzle prometh pump will fix your issues
Thanks for all your work testing and sharing your knowledge! Helping a frustrating community out haha. I’m sure you’ve been asked this question already but I guess I haven’t heard the answer yet, is there a different LS intake manifold that has better distribution?
maybe a Hi Ram
If you run a MAF, it works without messing up the AFR, Using speed density, it will get messed up AFR. Ideally you want it to cut immediately any time the injectors cut, like when you unexpectedly hit the rev limiter much sooner. It breaks pistons. Water on it's own works really well without any risk of broken pistons.
Methanol doesn't break pistons, detonation does
@@100pyatt it detonates when it's very lean. No fuel plus a bit of methanol
@@1magnitit would be leaner if there wasn’t methanol. You’re not making any sense.
If you run liquids into the compressor it will erode it over time.
Not such a problem with a titanium compressor wheel.
Yes I try telling novices about this. It destroys the compressor from erosion if injected pre turbo
I would not recommend changing pe and enrichment ramp in just not worth it all stock 60e trans just use it for going back and forth and keep throttle under 50%
I can’t get anything higher than 94 unless they’ll sell me some at the regional airport….. we can’t get E-85 in Canada.
Should there really be any water meth existing after the pre turbo injection? The correct amount (in my experience) is the amount which can be vaporized within the turbine and volute sections of the turbo.
I want to see pre vrs post (no ic) then pre vrs add a2aic no meth. I know ic work and that almost all applications benefit. I just think whacking the spray with 100krpm blades is cool. Would the ic do like a condenser in a/c… if you ran pre with any ic? I imagine a high pressure/high temp gas going in condensed across the ic you will have high pressure/lower temp gas or liquid? What’s it do?
How about propane?
Look up some of the liquid injected Propane systems. Charge cooling and high octane! 👍
Split into 8 nozzles and try port injection. Also apparently using meth injection pre-turbo aparently inproves turbo flow?
Yes but it will erode the compressor wheel eventually being very damaged
Hey Richard good morning what are you gonna do to video about methanon injection with an air-to-air
Yes please!!
Can’t wait to see 100% meth into the turbo!
Distribution?
Psi gain?
Cooler air?
Knock resistance/spark advance capability?
Hey richard I've been wondering for years, could you theoretically run 30 pounds of boost with straight water injection in the right proportion of water and 91 octane pump gas?
Just run methanol port injection on each port and 100% meth and a presure switche on the meth fuel line that triggers the high boost tune. That way its much safer
Why don’t you measure individual exhaust runner temps or better still lambda?
THAT IS THE PLAN
Hi i've gotten great results with my water meth setup it's a 50/50 mix using race cheetah methanol in my ford territory turbo barra i6 on 21psi and Aussie 98 octane.
Been running this with one 600hp nozzle after the throttle body for a year and a half and race at the drags at least 15 times no issues.
Having said that makes me wonder if i should go to a direct injection setup,to make sure each cylinder gets its fair share.
Independent Motorsport in Victoria run port water meth with very good result on some of there Territory Turbo’s. They have a UA-cam video on it too on there channel 👍
Any damage to turbo impeller with injecting water/methanol pre turbo?
Same as with a carby pre turbo.
@@1magnit thanks
Pre-Turbo injection causes Erosion Damage to the compressor wheel. Been there, done that several times.
@@100pyatt You did it wrong and didn't learn the first time.
If the water meth vaporizes in the intake runner then due to latent heat of evaporation it shouldn’t matter where the evaporation happens in the intake stream. As long as it does the cooling effect will take place. The amount of time shouldn’t have any affect.
I have seen intake runners on methanol cars ice up after a pass/dyno run, this would lead me to believe that you should be able to get the same cooling affects
Full meth cars burn a shit load for meth. I highly doubt you could get comparable results from the very small amount injected by 1 nozzle.
@@Dwarfgrinder I know you wouldn’t get the same amount of cooling my point was it can occur in a short distance/time.
How about 100% meth injection on a single plane manifold and a TB? Shouldn't that improve mixture distribution? How about port 100% meth injection on a fast with the injectors in the ports inside the manifold or in the ports?
I have a question I asked this question before but didn't get an answer back I know you're a busy man what do you believe to be the maximum horsepower of a 351 Windsor OEM block can't handle
WE HAVE DONE 1,100 HP SO FAR
@@richardholdener1727 Also, the faster you spin it, the more peak loads are inertia and momentum-related, and not so much combustion.
Depending on application as well, a short dyno run with lower coolant temps is very different than a half mile top speed attempt
if liquid wont evenly distribute through the runners.. your theory.. how does a carby work??
HAVE YOU MEASURED AF DISTRIBUTION TO THE CYLINDERS ON A CARBURETED MOTOR? I HAVE
@@richardholdener1727 no but I had twin egt's on a 13bt on pump fuel running 28psi with pre turbo wi? Both read the same, the thing is e85 isn't ready available everywhere in the world, most of your tests are on e85 and low boost, mine ran the same wi setup as green brothers racing.. on a street car , what is the point of e85 when you get around 30% less fuel economy and can't fill it up anywhere besides carrying extra drums of fuel with you, I think you should re run a test with a smaller engine.. out of the USA like here in Australia most boosted engines are 4 and 6 cyl and highish compression these days, run it up on pump gas to 20ish, then put it on a proper wi setup on it and see how much boost it will take, that's a real world test in my opinion.. especially with e85 not easily available. Also how many factory manifolds flow exactly the same amount of air to each runner?? Pretty much none but they still work 👌
Does water injection reduce or eliminate the need to change the ring gap or lower compression?
no on ring gap
Pre turbo injection is ignorant not only is it hard on the impeller and the centrifugal nature of the turbo compresses the water back out of suspension and against the outside of the housing.
It’s worth a test. So much speculation. I tend to think there will be some problems.
@@hondatech5000 I've been wrong before testing proves everything.
@@hondatech5000 tested 80 years ago.
@@V8Lenny and the results are???
David Vizard does this but nozzle must spray super fine droplets that basically evaporates before hitting impeller
100% meth may not pool in the intercooler. I think water will...
Both will tried it before 😂 but I swear by pre turbo but it's much better at the end of a turbos efficiency island. It's great at making a small turbo think it's big. The science behind it I hear works by raising the air density coming into the turbo and also the heat being lost in compression via phase change also helps make the compressor more efficient at higher flow rates. Ex I have a neon with a 20g that's at the limit of the turbo all the dome pressure all the time kinda thing and it actually picks up 5psi with meth pre turbo. Big think is the air going into the turbo on a 90°f day was dipping down into the sub zero range with chilled meth on a small nozzle. I will say if you have an ls mani or something like that I still think your gonna have Issues with distribution unless you have a nozzle in each runner.
Dyno testing diesel water/methanol video?
DIESEL?
@Richard Holdener would love to see some dyno tests spraying water/methanol on a diesel engine, after the intercooler.
Wrong channel for diesel, it's been tested though
@@travispfannmuller7717 do you happen to have any good links?
Intercooler and Water Meth? i am more interested in the octane boosting/on demand aspect of water/meth injection personally. Where i would hit a detonation limit for 91 octane, i may be able to go abit farther with water/meth....
Good way to blow you combo up if the water meth skips a beat, best thing to do is tune for whatever octane you have and then the water meth gives you a safety margin
@@11ride4life Still fuel limited then :(
@@ritchardposterior262
If you are interested in reliability then yes, still fuel limited. I have seen more than one combo get blown up when someone was relying on meth injection and it wasn’t always due to the methanol system having a hiccup, at least once we confirmed it was due to uneven distribution of the water/meth that car specifically was using the water/meth not only to cool the intake charge, but as a way to get around the use of race fuel and because of that, cost him a motor. Due to that experience, I learned that it was best to use it as added insurance, instead of depending on it to make your combo work.
This may sound a bit extreme but I don’t know your budget or set up, but the best way I have seen to run 91 octane the majority of the time, but still have seamless transition to high boost/high power is to run a second small fuel cell and complete 2nd fuel system including rails and of course injectors. It obviously requires a standalone ECU and isn’t cheap but it gives you the best of both worlds. I helped set up a turbo viper that made nearly 2000 hp and drove around on 91 octane most of the time and had a small 5 gallon fuel cell in the trunk full of the VP import (around 123 octane, oxygenated & leaded) this was done primarily because he did not want to be limited only to gas stations that carried E85, and funny as it sounds he wanted better fuel mileage than the E85 would have had, and as well as the horrendous fuel mileage E85 is intensely hydroscopic and does not store, or keep very well/long. Due to all of the aforementioned reasons, as well as the fact that the owner of the car mostly uses it on the street and didn’t want to have to stop constantly for fuel.
@@11ride4life Dude, thank you for sharing. this is the information that no one talks about. i really appreciate it.
Could you use another set of injectors in the intake manifold that would shoot water methanol and and run with Holley fuel controller were you could build a map?
I think it’s the next step into properly tuning these systems as using a dump it in and hope method works, but what is used other than afr and egt and actually measuring the air temperature and power output at given timing to tune an un referenced introduction of water and meth? Most systems I’ve seen like snow or aem are a bit crude
Would it be better to run dual fuel systems. One system to run from idle to 3/4 throttle with 93 octane . Second system to run from 3/4 to wot with higher octane fuel instead? Just wondering?
I've seen people do this with isopropyl alcohol, so yes, it works
Um,,, injecting meth is a bad idea: so I have heard.
But I started as soon as he mentioned it..
Too late then I suppose.
At least my house and car are REALLY clean now..😂
If it lowered the charge temps as indicated by the IAT sensor... it WOULD make more power, period. The data is garbage when using wet thermocouples or thermistors. They report falsely cool temps. You can't get the charge temps down much past the boiling point of the fluid. Its been dyno tested and proven with the compound diesel and small engine guys. You absolutely can cool the the charge temps down around 150* With 100%* meth. *if* you spray enough. The kits out there don't even come close to the volumes needed. That will never happen with 50/50 mixes. Regardless of what the saturated IAT tells you. Will never be better than a good IC, but can be good enough to reach peoples power goals. I run twin 78/75's on a 5.3. without an IC and pre turbo meth inj. 5.50 1/8th mile car.
you statement is incorrect, period
@@richardholdener1727 Math, science, and testing says other wise. If you knock X degrees off the charge temp. you will pick up "Y" amount of power. Just as an intercooler does. Its not knocking the reported amount off the charge temp. Its why you don't see the same power increase at like reported IAT's. Back it up with direct port w the same volume of fluid to eliminate you distribution issues. It will NOT pick up the same power as an IC... Non intercooled, methanol won't be a fluid when its injected at any decent boost level as it flashes to a gas at 150*. I max out the GM IAT before the 1/8th at 250* plus. So it will distribute more evenly than a liquid.