Testing The Water-Methanol Injection Method On A 572 Big Block - Horsepower S15, E17
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Water/methanol injection has been used successfully since World War II as a way to enhance power by increasing octane. HorsePower conducts a pair of first-ever tests - one for naturally-aspirated engines, another for turbo engines. The results may astonish you.
Man, to be 20 years younger and use this new technology. This old line mechanic can only enjoy this technology from the comfort of his recliner!
If you are referring to water meth injection it was used in the oldsmobile turbo jet fire back in early 60s. They called it turbo rocket fluid or something
8😅😅mg GG
Yes Beats the days 1986 when I used my little sisters swing set with a 2x8 across the top and a come a long to pull my engine out of my 79 Z28. Rebuild in a #3 wash tub in Diesel fuel.
The main training base for the P-47 and the B-29 was at Wendover Nevada. You can still visit the airfield by car or even fly into the field today. The P-47 was an amazing aircraft.
500mph is wild considering planes were invented not that long ago
My uncle used water injection in his motorhome back in the 70s to get better fuel economy.
Mallory made a great kit back in the late 60's.
Stumbled across the back in the 70. Readymade kits were unheard of back then, so we made our own. Yes, it works. In a boosted application I can see this being a lot of help. IAT.
Edelbrock made one, Varajection. I used it on a Chevy powered olds F-85/Cutlass with a turbo, and a homemade nitrous coupler I made in HS shop class, (thanks Mr. Goo, RIP ) to spin the turbo up. Turbo lag was a drag back then.
We used them on Corvairs. I also used them on high compression engines. Big difference on both.
German fighter planes in ww2 used water/methanol injection (MW50) boosting performance by about 100 hp (75 kW) on the BMW 801 and DB 605 engines
Pratt & Whitney R2800
Produced 400hp more
Unknown to most people.
Some Rolls Royce Merlin’s ran straight water.
Water powered Merlin’s:)
And B29 Wright - pure water powered engines
They started on gas, warned to operating temp, then switched over to pure water powered
Oldsmobile in the early 60's used a turbocharged 215 CI aluminum engine that had alcohol/water injection to prevent pre-ignition. They called it Rocket fuel, I believe. It was not very successful, and the Corvair Spyder Turbo outperformed it and lived a lot longer. Chevrolet used ignition timing and a smaller carb to limit boost.
I think the Problem with the Oldsmobile was simply the fact that car owners didn't keep the water / Methanl tank full .
Automotive turbocharging was in its infancy. The turbo Pontiac 301 with a Rochester carb was better after 20 or so years research. The American engine that really got turbos on factory autos was the Buick Regal and Grand Nationals with electronic controls. Tamed the beast (fuel metering) for street and once tuners figured out how to hack the modules it was a hot rodders dream.
@@daledavies2334 My modified '79 Z-28 Camaro always ate stock Grand Nationals and the Turbo Pace Car Trans Am for Lunch .. I am sure they can be made to be faster.. Also I have 110 HP Nitrous kit on it .
@@mikeskidmore6754Comparing your modified Camaro to a stock Regal of Grand National is not a fair comparison. You also do not explain just what modifications you performed. Those turbo Regals and Grand Nationals with ported heads, aftermarket cam, turbo, injectors and a tune are rapid vehicles. So we need to compare apples to apples or oranges to oranges.
Which in some areas can be a real pain in the ass trying to plan a road trip when you have to plan out where the gas stations are that actually have e85 can sometimes put you in almost an hour out of the way I know from experience
Would have been nice to see a baseline run on the 93 without the methanol so that you get a good accurate idea of how much horsepower gain you get with the methanol instead of doing a baseline on the race gas or do both tests do the water methanol with the race gas and then do the water methanol with the 98 so you can see horsepower gains on both fuels
I don't think the engine would run right on 93 alone. Would knock.
@@samuelriester1419 Yeah I think you are right. I don't think a lot of people understand the way you get more power with water/meth injection is that it allows you to run higher compression and advance timing (static and dynamic, but usually dynamic for the spoolie boys)
because the limiting factor of higher power potential fuels for NA motors will always be the inability to shove enough air into the cylinders. So quite literally, the only thing water/meth could accomplish would be decreasing combustion gas temps allowing for higher compression or more timing advance.
Hence why, a motor not tuned for it (NA ones especially) will reap little to no benefit from water/meth injection. (they sprinkled this information in the video I thought I should condense it)
NA ones especially because pretty much the only thing they can change without huge mods would be timing.
Chances are by running 93, they'd have to cut timing so much it'd just be worthless. That engine was designed for race gas, anything else and it'll knock just like you said.
THE engine was already designed to run off race gas with no problems. If they added the water methanol kit to it, I don't think there would have been a change.
This is a really informative video good work guys, and the back up research tek was great - thanks
Great vid, really enjoyed!!! 👍👍👍
Engine masters did a test like this and they found adding water to the methanol almost hydro locked the cylinders. Pure methanol they found made the most and ran perfectly.
I wonder if they added too much. I have a Water/Meth set-up on my BMW 335D and it works just fine. Probably comes down to how well it atomizes the mixture.
@@MikeyB_1972 engine masters season 6 episode 98. They tried water-meth injection on a boosted LS (because everyone and their mother has a boosted ls nowadays) and the water-meth mixture would only work to a certain degree, when they put straight methanol into it they made way more power. If you can I'd check it out sometime, your BMW would probably have some noticeable power gains
Snow performance has been doing this for yrs never had any issues with there system,I'd have to actually see the tests they ran to believe that it almost hydolocked there engine! Been building motors for 30yrs never even heard of this issue! And all I run is big boost 4 and v8 engines!
I’d bet so, meth is like 118+octane. Its like Nitrous’s cousin. Of course it’s better when by itself then watered down. Problem is that requires a lot of extra fuel and not every engine has room to spare in there fuel system to pump more, because without it, your back to lean/ engine knocking problems unfortunately.
@port nut injecting methanol makes it richer because youre adding fuel
I live in Michigan and I don’t really consider the UP where Michigan Tech is located to be in the Midwest… That’s more like southern Canada.
Well the first thing you should have done was made a test with the 93 octane to show how much it dropped the horsepower after not using race fuel then proceeded to make your test with methanol water injection, I think they would have been more feasible for us the viewers.
Had one of these on a 90 Zr-R-1
Night and day difference....putting one on my carb
d musclecar. Ought to be able to lock out the ignition without as much concern.
Drill and tap your plenum or any spacer its an easy setup
USe 50/50 dont start tossing straight methanol at it youll regret it Esp without forged pistons
You should do a better job of researching the P-47
It had a very short range due to fuel consumption and not being that aerodynamic, but the Pratt and Whitney R-2800 (2800 cid) would consume about 60 gallons per hour in combat (less when not balls to the wall). The long distances the bombers went, and the time to form up caused the P-47 to use a lot of fuel, and it was unable to escort further and the German border at best. No other fighter could do much better but the R-2800 was supercharged and turbocharged so that it could fly as high as the bombers. Ceiling height was important and fighters like the P-51B with a Allison engine could not perform well at higher altitudes (they were supercharged only). When the P-51 received the Rolls Royce engine with a better supercharger that is when it became famous. It had the altitude requirements, had long range due to the increased fuel capacity and efficeincy of the Rolls Royce Merlin engine, and could escort bombers to Berlin and back.
The Jug was a big durable fighter but becasue of its short legs, it was used in ground support where it acceled.
Great job men
This Video was really starting to get interesting when they went to Houghton Tech and snowed the L-S-3 Engine.. then they didn't do anything with it ..
Run your test engine on 93 Octane gasoline .. then race Gas .. then 93 octane with water meth Injection and also run it on E-85 ..
I am looking for a very compact unit for a 1203 CC air cooled Motorcycle that makes 103 HP stock and calls to run on 91 Octane with 10.5-1 compression stock .
The real test would be to do what David Vizard has done: 14:1 or higher on 87 octane and water injection.
Right the 1060hp 632 BBC
Makes the 572 kids stuff
lol we did dyno wars over 2 days, all plug brands including E3 on SBC, BBC540 and 347SBF. Well dyno numbers dont lie NGK, and good ol champion, came out almost mirrored on TOP every time. E3 second too worse plug all three engines. EPM enginnering said he gets similar results on his motorcycle engines with E3 again not coming out near the top
0:40 The 'Spitfire' Is the fastest propeller driven aircraft & the first to approach 'the sound barrier'.
Lol 😂
Always wanted to try this on a roots blower.
it works ok I use it on my magnusun c5, c6 and am putting it on my Ford Lightning soon as well as my C7 Z06.
I have Ford Ranger 4.0 V6 with a Eaton m90 strapped to it using water injection. It keeps the intake and exhaust temps cooler for sure.
Finally a truly killer segment! My question is is there a limit to how long you can continuously run water methanol into an engine is it just for a short burst. Of time or should you have the capability could you run it for say an hour
Cools the engine so I run full time.
The water/meth runs only during high load or high boost, 75%+ throttle or high airflow. So it doesn't spray all that much. It can spray for as long as there is high boost on the motor. The highly atomized water is supposed to evaporate completely before reaching the cylinder and that is what cools the air. The methanol cools too but also acts as a fuel AND octane improver. That is my understanding of all this.
Depending on the nozzle size. But usually just only a few minutes. It's really only ever being used at WOT. For my own truck a gallon of water usually last a tank of gas depending how heavy my foot is.
Indefinitely
Some engine are WATER POWERED….
Most people don’t know that:)
Haha that wiper fluid meth mod was cool.
I have an opinion about using this on a street car though. Look you can pay 10 cents more per gallon of higher octane fuel and only spend a buck for 10 gallons OF PUMP GAS, or you can spend 3 bucks or more for washer fluid PER GALLON. On a street application it makes no sense. On a race application thats different. Detonation is a big problem but shouldn't be for a street application if you built the motor right.
Where I live 93 octane costs $0.80 a gallon more. If I can run 87 octane instead of 93, I can save $16.00 a tankful. The kit for a n/a efi car costs $600.00 + $6.00 a gallon for the fluid, it pays for itself in 10k miles. Something to consider
You're completely missing the point of the kit. When used properly it makes the octane over 100, which here is like $15 a gallon at the pump. It's not designed to allow you to put cheap gas in your engine and then spray meth to bring it back up. I would put the highest available octane at the pump and then let the meth keep the charge Temps down and timing high. For supercharged cars it helps a ton. I've been contemplating running a system like this on my procharged 19 gt but I think I'll just go e85 since it is everywhere In san diego
This aged horribly lol. It's a dollar difference where I'm at thanks to odj...
Gallon of meth lasts me quite a while on the street
This system cools the intake charge, little different than running higher octane.
Had one of these systems they truly do work you can feel it noticeably
Done this for almost 10 years ago..
I have a 1990 Thunderbird SC with 14 Lb of Boost , I wonder how much more power my car will make?
Do you make one for my Harley-Davidson it's a 59 FLH
What about at 75/25 meth to water ratio? You still get the benefits of the added water, also whial having almost pure fuel. What does everyone think? 🤔🤔🤔
(Sorry. New to engine building) lol
There isn't much benefit and it also makes it a lot more dangerous if there is a leak. You can't ship anything with over 50% methanol in it either. I use to mix my own but it was because it was way cheaper and I actually ran with less methanol 30/70. Buying and mixing is to much a hassle though. I just use 100% distilled water now.
I'm sorry, I was expecting much more. I had a 496ci BBC @ 11.TO 1 that made 730 hp. Where did all the power go?
They reduced the octane..
Wrong camshaft lobe separation angle
What was the timing with race fuel?
Self tapping screws…. How cheep is that? ;)
Water and methanol doesn't increases octane index. What it does is reduce temperatures in combustion chamber, what means you can use a higher compression ratio or even use a worst gasoline in the engine without damaging anything. sorry my english is bad, i need to improve.
That's actually incorrect. Methanol does in fact increase the octane rating of the mix. It also cools, but the cooling effect comes mainly from water, which has a significantly higher cooling capacity compared to fuel.
For a more comparable baseline the race fuel run should have been done with the spacer plate in place.
@@bigboreracing356 But we don't really know, do we? 700 hp, 572 ci mo plenum mo bettah maybe. The maybe is the issue\.
@@bigboreracing356 Money isn't the issue, the plate was already in hand. It's a question of scientific method. If it's to be a test of tune/hp for race gas vs tune/hp for pump gas + water/methanol then that should be the only variable.
@@bigboreracing356 I won't go that far, for all I know the difference may not have amounted to much. It's just an unaccounted difference that caught my attention.
Also with that being said you need to burn twice as much e85 to get the same horsepower as race gas so are you really saving any money
You burn 20-25% more e85 than pump gas due to being less dense. It is a wash with pump gas vs e85 distance because you can't go as far on e85 but it's cheaper, also e85's octane is around 105 and burns cooler than race gas. You can increase timing with meth or e85 only prob with meth is if you have high timing and pump gas and the meth pump fails there is a good chance you'll loose your engine if your doing a pull and don't notice in time
Bmw and Porsche both have water injection cooling in their gt cars
I have a 2016 Ecodiesel, not alot is available for upgrades for these engines. You guys ever set up a diesel with water/Meth kit? If so who makes a kit to make it work reliably?
Go with nitrous
Propane is a much safer option.
@@callmesomething1425 who makes a kit??
should have used 87 not a fan of e85 ethanol if one wants good clean fuel propane or methane CNG gas is the ticket emissions what emissions lol
It was the germans with MW50 in bf109s that used this first. not americans.....
Two Time World Champs.. To the Victor's rewrite history!!
Sir Harry Ricardo developed the water injection system.
They didn’t get a baseline hp and torque on the 93 octane big block before adding the methane injection
Because it would probably detonate and blowup the motor. They are showing you that you can use water injection as a replacement for expensive high octane race gas.
@@Samophlan I think they said they took 10* of timing out for the 93, so it would have run fine, but obviously not had the same amount of hp as the race fuel . They ended up with 40* total timing with 93 and meth, I'm not sure where total timing was with just race fuel.
Can just supply the methanol through a vacuum nozel on a Weber?
maybe drill/tap elsewhere
Yeah e85 is great for making power and yes your motor loves it but your rubber fuel lines your rubber seals and all your other little stuff in your fuel system don't like it so how much is it really going to cost you in the long run but I mean if your big picture is power and you don't care about throwing away money on replacement parts all the time that's fine and dandy that's the part that OEM Ford and GM and Dodge don't like to tell you about
So could this be used on a daily driver?
Yes even with 13:1 / 14:1 compression.
You only need the water injection under load and wide open throttle
I feel the dump I just took made more power
8:59 lmaooo I thought I was witnessing a white people/dad meme unfolding live.
FOUR hundred miles an hour.
must be boat anchor day
Nope. The Ford 6.0 diesel is one tho
I'd be ashamed of that garbage installation they did.
Skip the water all together it is not necessary....