Something I love about the internet is you can find experts on just about anything and each one is deeply passionate about their respective subject. I love learning about 20th century and contemporary composers, and I'm glad I found a channel that can help me do that. Thanks!
I met his grandson some years ago and was invited into his home. Where I was shown various letters/paper/manuscripts and his furnishings that survived of his grandfather. I hope that there are still in the families possession. Thank you for this 'synopsis'
Webern was a great composer, I love his Symphony Op 21, specially the first movement, where he creates a very private, intimate and soft speaking world.
Beautiful and clear presentation of the vision of Webern. I'm a retired musicologist and wish my presentations on Webern in the classroom over the years had been as amazing! Keep up the good work!
My favorite Webern work is the Cantata Opus 29. The second movement is extraordinary for its long line, which is like that of a Mozart aria. The best performance I've heard is with Günter Wand, now out of print, I believe. Webern remarked that in time children in the streets would be singing his music, and this cantata really is immediately appealing.
This is an excellent, and compelling explanation of Webern's later work. There may be an article, as far as I know, yet unwritten, that compares the notion of minimalism as contrasted by Webern and Phillip Glass. Were I to engage, the title might be, "Why the music of Phillip Glass and Anton Webern are two sides of the minimalist coin" The contrast being, Glass takes small events, and repetitively elongates them through constant but subtle repetition and instrumental changes, while Webern succinctly condenses numerous ideas.
@@tribudeuno Lol back in my rock and roll days I couldn’t listen to most bands after hearing captain beefheart. And same thing happened again for the second Viennese. I still can’t say I know how to appreciate their work but they just made almost everyone else uninteresting in comparison
Been looking for a channel such as yours for a while, loving this stuff. Webern fucks with my head, many of his pieces I can't listen to in a single sitting due to its overwhelming intensity.... such a master
Thank you for this! I learned of Webern through a recent New Yorker magazine concert listing that described his music as "crystalline serialism". I had no idea what that meant, but it sounded interesting - and it is. You're right that I wouldn't put Webern on while doing the dishes, but I'm listening at work and, to my untrained ear, it is quite pleasing. (Quartet op. 22, Three Little Pieces, op. 11)
I have heard the story that Stravinsky, after intending to listen to Webern's music, quickly stopped listening, since he became worried that it would have too much of an impact on his own style. I kind of wish that you had gone into Webern's use of butterfly symmetry. I have also heard that Webern wrote short pieces since he believed that the human ear couldn't take extended serial music...
Concerning about brevity in Webern's twelve-tone technique. I studied this technique and I can say: IT IS EXTREMELY HARD TO DEAL WITH 12-TONE TECHNIQUE. Webern was a student of Medieval and Renaissance counterpoint, particularly that of Adrian Willaert. His Op. 21 uses, throughout the first movement, Medieval isorhrythmic technique to sctructure it. Webern wrote his music using counterpoint technique to structure his pieces, along with "mirrors" technique. And even having a "known" way of composing, it was for Webern hard do deliver something interesting. But he did and a lot. When you listen to dodecaphonic music, or even total serialism, you have to pay attention to fragments, blocks of chords, melodic cells, intervals. Webern knew he had not old forms to compose anymore (and listeners was not so used to 12-tone music). He created a very concise style to make music. Only the strict necessary stuff is in his musical creations. Nothing more.
Every few years I return to Webern and hear him anew. Yesterday it was Sinopoli's recording of the Symphony Op.21 that made me truly feel like I was "hearing" that piece. The interpretation by the performer really matters with Webern.
I love Webern. He was mentioned in a John Cage book I read and I was already prepared to listen to his work, also after having been an avid Schoenberg listener. I have also seen modern pieces performed at the Pierre Boulez concert hall in Berlin, I loved the crowd, we were all so thirsty for weird. 😂 It’s so good to see modern classical music live. It was conducted by Daniel Barenboim- amazing.
In 1998, I used Webern's Op. 5 to accompany the dance piece I choreographed after translating into movement those of Charles Baudelaire's poems that use cats as metaphors for sexuality. *insert deep breath - whew!* That work got me into the MFA program for dance at UCLA! Webern has been my favorite of all composers for a very long time. I think hearing you talk about his music existing outside of time and narrative has finally helped me understand why. You mentioned moments of ecstasy - or something to that effect - and that is the moment when it all finally fell into place for me (as the 30-second section of Op. 11 was on the screen). I was interested in presenting Baudelaire's maximum of intoxicated addiction and luxuriating sensuality against Webern's maximum of sober efficiency and ascetic logic. That intersection has been the place where I live artistically. I have Bipolar II Disorder, and for many years I was undiagnosed and/or improperly medicated. My emotions and thoughts were exhausting. I'm also very obsessive about layering nuanced perfection into everything I make. Comparing their lives, these two men were exact opposites in many ways, yet both ultimately ended tragically under circumstances that would have extinguished lesser artists' inspiration. I have always felt a deep kinship to both of them, from a creative perspective. Thankfully, I have found ways to establish stability that these two never enjoyed. In this video, you just helped me understand (after 25 years) why I felt/sensed so deeply that Webern's music is "perfect," even though researching him in the past has not helped - reading books that explain 12-tone rows is definitely a good way to gut my enjoyment of his compositions (and yet, I love it when they get past the math, and just highlight what has happened). Your point: It's not meant to be a narrative, or a sequence necessarily. It's made of individual cells that evolve in complex ways that might or might not be obvious, even under intense scrutiny. That was my mindscape for the 38 years while I was untreated. I experienced constant rapid cycling in my emotions and ideas. Every moment was simultaneously surrounded by everything else in a general context, but also detached, unpredictable, and inexplicable. Terrifying, yes; however, also very exhilarating. Whereas for "normal" people his music is offputting nonsense, to me it was matching pace with my shifting colors and outbursts. By the time I lost interest in a movement idea, Webern had already shifted focus to a new sound idea, too. Webern played to my mind and soul, and Baudelaire spoke to my body and heart. I have always heard music lovers say Webern's work is unlistenable. To your point, maybe they were trying to lose themselves in the structures and themes/variations/motifs/developments? I think all of this is different for dancers. We inhabit and manifest the music, without necessarily knowing/understanding the score and its underlying technical nuances. Perhaps we respond to it, rather than about it? All I know is that, regardless of whether it is listenable or not, Webern's music (despite itself/perhaps ironically) is extremely danceable.
While hitch hiking around The U.S. 79 to 81, I spent some time at I. U. Hanging out around with Dean of Jazz David Baker and the Composition dept. The music Dept was then a huge circular multi-story building. In that time before magnetic keys I was always mistaken for a student. Anyway the absolute reverence with which all the composers I met at that time held Anton Webern in really caught my attention. So I have to admit even though l love Berg (whose life wasn't as tragic) I sit up and pay strict attention when I listen to Webern cause its so distilled; if you don't it's vanished in the air.
thank you so much for your video. I remember attending in La Rochelle (France) in a music festival a conference about opus 10, with an orchestra demonstrating each measure of this wonderful jewel, how it was built and made sense. Great memory! I'm about to film a concert with pasacaille n°1 and your comment will help me a lot I'll try to see more of your videos
Totally agree with what you say here, especially about the fact that the post war composers mistook his means for 'ends'. I've loved listening and being challenged by his music for most of my adult life...I think my kids will look at life more forgivingly and patiently because I listen to Webern with them now.
my opinion on atonalism is that it is very interesting and beautiful but only if it is short. So I think he was right creating short movements in his work.
For me, Webern was the only composer who understood totally 12-tone technique and its possibilities of creation for a 20th century musical language. Schoenberg and Berg was still "poisoned" with Romanticist pathos and way of expressions typicals from the 19th. century. After 2nd Vienese School, I also like Babbit and Pierre Boulez 12-tone compositions (Le Marteau Sans Maitre is a genius' work).
Early in the century I attended a concert by a string quartet in Madrid, where I used to live. They program started with a string quartet by Mozart. I observed the people nearby and they seemed to be mesmerised, really enjoying themselves. I was bored, to say the least. The next piece they played was a string quartet by Webern. I noticed some people were fidgeting through their programs. It was not long before I had tears rolling down both cheeks. The music was so intense, just what I needed. I've heard his early work Ein Sommerwind played live on a couple of occasions. Unfortunately, it does not merit an opus number and is not included in either of my boxed sets of his "complete" works, one featuring Robert Craft as conductor and the other one with Pierre Boulez.
There’s a remarkable poem by Drew Milne called ‘A Broken Cast,’ dedicated to the memory of Webern. It can be found in Milne’s collected poems, In Darkest Capital (2017). Read it to see how the poet finds prosodic and other linguistic and poetic ‘equivalents’ for Webernian modes of expression. A great video, btw.
Hi Redford! Thanks for your intelectually enriching comment in the first place. I got the 'In Darkest Capital', but it does not contain a poem 'A Broken Cast' you are refering to. Any idea where else I might find it? Thanks a lot! R. JS
I am so ancient that the only access to all the known music of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern was through the Robert Craft CBS recordings. Now, on UA-cam, the performances of the opus 10 pieces run into double figures. At the time of writing I am back looking at those pieces but I am still absorbing the first movement, which is more surprising than ever. The final gesture (F repeated four times) sounds more and more like a cadence. It also subtly harks back to the opening three notes with the colouration. In between there is a journey, albeit some twenty odd seconds, but a journey it is. I admit that Webern is't for everybody, but everybody a least has the chance now to hear his music. I cannot tell you my glee when, on a TV serial, one character pulled out an LP of the the then quite new Boulez CBS set, which I bought almost as soon as it hit the shelves. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was the opening of the Symphony, opus 21. My mind followed the contours of the canons and I had to snap out of it to concentrate on the dialogue.
Bravo, very well done, 10 minutes very wel spent. Webern will always be my favourite composer. Dutch composer Willem Pijper had a similar comment as Schoenberg's (Sigh-Novel) by claiming that a single note of Webern is like a Mahler symphony.
Thanks again . I need this channel !I need to find some papers on opus 10. How many people recognized the importance of his work before and during WW2. Sad we lost so much . But what we do have is awfully difficult to hear . Betsy Jonas in your interview with her mentions this was the first work of Webern (Boulez championed him) she had a chance to hear . I've seen the score . He's famous for being a perfectionist and writing these miniatures full of "ideas,worth noticing " A few seconds of Boulez even to a deaf guy is eventladen and unforgettable . Webern -I've yet to discover but have owned a few scores over 30 years . Maybe now , I'll start the work (deciphering ) .What can be heard I wonder . "Months to unravel it all " The challenge will spur many to discover ...
The Op.7 4 pieces for Violin and Piano is a very affecting composition. I first heard it on a recital disc of Anne-Sophie Mutter w/Lambert Orkis. The program also included Prok.'s Sonata for Violin Op. 94a, Four Nocturnes by George Crumb, and Sonata for Violin by Respighi. I really like the Crumb composition.
Not to plug myself, but there's a video on my channel called "Christmas in Sunset Hills" that sets video footage of Christmas decorations in my town to the first of the Op. 7 pieces. I think it's a fitting visual accompaniment to the 'pointillism' of Webern's music.
The first time I heard Webern, I was in Awe of the absolute Intensity. It has the same effect, now after 40 some odd years. There is nothing quite like it. Thanks for your short documentary. Can you imagine an hour long documentary on the originator of Minimalism? Although, I'd watch that too, considering how much I love his music.
Nice summary! No, 10 minutes or 10 years won't do justice to Webern and his achievements, but what's presented here is the sum of a great effort. I've been enamored by Webern's work since the mid-80's when I got the six LP set of Boulez's famous compendium. Since the age of 19 I couldn't stop listening, and the sense of discovery with every gesture in all of Webern's pieces is like walking into a cathedral and marveling at the architects and masons who made it all possible. If anything, his music teaches the art of restraint.
Great video, thank you. Webern is one of my favourite composers. I hope you make more videos like this. Can you comment or make a video about who you think are the most innovative living composers?
It wasn't until I read the book of conversations between Robert Craft and Igor Stravinsky that I understood the true difference between early and 'middle-period' (as he was never granted a true late period) Webern- namely, that Webern was going through his own Neo-Classical phase. Webern wrote his String Quartet Op. 28 around the time Stravinsky wrote Dumbarton Oaks, and while vastly different in scale and musical grammar, both look backwards towards Classical forms, and we can describe both using terms we'd use to generalize capital-'C' Classical music- stately, architectonic, and perhaps the slightest bit dry. There was also the tempering influence of Schoenberg's method, whose deployment I'm convinced was largely motivated by the fact both Schoenberg and Webern were struggling with extended forms in a free atonal musical grammar, despite Schoenberg's high-minded rationalizations otherwise. My own preferences lean towards Webern's early miniatures, even if I find myself listening to the later works more often. His interest in early music makes sense to me, as I can hear fleeting suggestions of plainsong in parts of those early works, and ostinato sections that remind me of Perotin. On the other end, in the second Cantata, I almost hear him reconnecting with Romanticism- but a florid, love-of-God-and-nature Romanticism, rather than the tortured expressionism of Mahler and Schoenberg.
This video was very enlightening. I've enjoyed op 7 Vier Stucke played by Isaac Stern and Webern's op 11 for cello and piano. I have not yet been able to warm up to the variations for piano. I'm going to play them on the piano until they make sense to me. I'll give every piece of Webern involving piano the attention it deserves. (Takemitsu's Rain Sketches are based on Webern so I'll relearn those pieces too. ) . Thanks for the excellent video.
You're welcome. The early lieder (for soprano and piano) are worth looking at. There is a complete edition of those pieces from Carl Fischer that is inexpensive and worth having. They are great pieces and hardly ever performed. There is also an early Rondo for piano, written in a post-Brahmsian style. www.amazon.com/VF10-Anton-Webern-Collection/dp/0825856590
I like Webern's brand of "minimalism". All the spaces in between the sounds seem to give me time to process wtf just happened. The lack of repetition keeps me on my toes. When there is repetition, it is subtle. As opposed to the minimalism of Reich, Riley or Glass where the repetition is constant and deliberate; the repetition serves a purpose but my brain gets bored af. The way I see it, Webern's music offers a challenge or an mental exercise while still being concise and substantive. Again, as opposed to composers in the 80s who exploited the complexity of Webern's work in their own compositions, of which I view to be "complexity for the sake of complexity". There's more to Webern's music than just it's compositional difficulty. There's some serious emotions to be found... That's just my opinion :) Love you, Samuel!
Thank you for this insightful video. One thought that came to mind while listening to Webern was that my appreciation of his music might partly stem from my experiences with other music: his music feels so concise because the sounds reference other music with precision, so that they act as tokens of other music. Though I can't test if this is really the case, since I can't forget the music I've heard in the past. Some of the most powerful music I've heard either way.
I think that's absolutely right. When you listen to Webern, you can't help but hear it through the lens of the music that preceded it historically (especially from a gestural / affective point of view, since Webern is steeped in late romanticism) -- and to hear it negatively, in terms of the ways in which it is different from that music. I think that's what some listeners find so challenging about it.
I don't think so much of the very short pieces being outside time but as the last left overs. vestuges of time In particular the example you gave above. I think it opens a wrench into the bowels of time. time. It comes from that whole process of removing extraneous formaily in time until a last shred of development is left over in Webern Once when introducing Webern to friends witha very brief piece It is dark - imagine a flash of lightning which permits you to catch a glimpse of a leaf, a twig and .he feathers of a bird This helped to fix the musical images. Webern was a self-a effacing man. I hear this even in the Passacaglia But Ithink he got to the pinit where he thought he could withdraw and let the twelve tones speak for themselves, a fetish I prefer the atonal works of Webern and Schoenberg, before getting stuck in the twelve tone system, Alban Berg never did get stuck in them. It's true that Webern had a great influence after the war, But Boulez who started as a Webernian, changed his mind and prefered the freeer structures of Alban Berg. All open to dicussion
Benjamin Woollard Thank you, I'm thrilled to hear that -- it's why I started the channel. Jazz isn't my area of expertise although I do enjoy it. Hope to hear from you again.
You should add suggestions with regards to the chronology, i think. Or actually just more annotation in general: every time i'm watching your lectures -- there are names of works mentioned, frequently in multiple languages and it's sometimes hard to catch or to keep track of them once i'm through the video and want to look them up. Maybe type them out in the description of the video as if in "Works mentioned" or something! A bit narcissistic of me, probably, but it's just jaw-dropping how you know them all by heart and the specificity. Great insight, thank you!
Thank you for this, Webern is the composer who influences me the most. I consider all of his work to be a romantic gesture. Everything is incredibly beautiful once the aesthetic is understood. Hearing the first chord in the piano part of his "4 pieces for violin and piano" was the exact moment I understood it all, seems strange but it's true.
I am appreciating Your comment about Herr Anton von Webern and , humbly saying that , I would rather follow Your indication, in order to try and understand his compositionsBest Rgards by the way : I would be since some decade, a humble book pupil of Herr Arnold Schoenberg
Beautifully put together video Samuel. Thank you. You make some very relevant points. I particularly think your thoughts on how musical events happen in a mature Webern composition very significant. Especially in regard to temporal perception. The music of Webern is profoundly emotional and you highlight this fact. Far too much time is spent IMHO examining the process and not the visceral effects of A W's art. I think Webern's own comment about his early opuses ( "They are all about the death of my mother") is indicative of an emotional reaction. So why do so many people still want to approach this music as if they were in a composition analysis class? Or to put it another way don't other people have mothers too?!? Exposure is clearly the starting point and (as you rightly say) repetition. In fact a composition like Op. 11 would probably benefit from being performed and heard twice at a recital. Eventually (well hopefully) the penny will drop and these magically condensed musical worlds will reveal themselves to the attentive listener for what they are: Superbly constructed tapestries of sound. Exquisite in their miniature detail. It is (I cannot stress enough) highly emotional music. Almost tragic at times in its pathos. Explosive moments followed by profound silences. But also graceful and tender at other times. The novel in a sigh comment by Schoenberg really says it all. Some may believe elitism and the ivory tower to be the true home for Webern and his art but I think not. It speaks for and of humanity and the human condition as much as say Van Gough, Euripides, Tarkovsky, Shakespeare et al.
Thanks for making this video, it was great. I prefer his early works, his later works can be really hard to listen to. I recommend you to listen Takashi YOSHIMATSU - Threnody to Toki , there are some elements of Takashi's music that remind me of Anton von Weberns later works.
It's fabulous music is old Webern. As an improvising composer my earlier days were full of long pieces and as I've matured the pieces have become shorter, in many respects I have no control over that.
my record store guy highly recommended i pick up a of Webern album he just came across. i love unusual atonal music, but didn't love Webern all that much. given this video though, i will defiantly listen to it harder. nice video.
I'm watching this video because I just saw the video of The Mike Douglas Show where the legendary musician Frank Zappa said he liked listening to Anton Von Webem. No surprising to me, now that I see this video and see the correlation between the two in being unusual composers. Here is the link of that interview and Frank mentions Anton at the ten minutes and eight seconds point of that video. ua-cam.com/video/kSPdg4yPwAg/v-deo.html
I could never get into Zappa's music, and it's not for want of trying. For his 'art music' Zappa was adept at capturing the surface of modernist music, without ever capturing the animating ideas. If you want to piss off a music snob, tell them Kip Winger is ten times the composer Zappa is- a contrarian opinion that also has the benefit of being true.
I have loved Webern my entire life and you sir, made a damn awesome video!! Your choice of orchestral piece was a very good one, it shows how you can be overwhelmed by the lush beauty which washes over you. I don't really understand how people couldn't fall in love with his works. I actually *like* using his music behind processes, like oil painting. You have a stark room with a bright light and you play his entire works on a loop. Wow! it really gets up into you and affects the painting. Thank you again for a video I really enjoyed! If you find the time please listen to my new form of music, Omni in Spirit melody 3. ua-cam.com/video/6hSdOFElzcM/v-deo.html
I wish it were possible for someone to explain what is going on in pieces from such as Webern for a general listener with no theoretical musical background. Indeed, given the brevity of the second movement discussed in this post, Webern may be the ideal candidate for such an explication. From this post I can extrapolate why Webern composed as he did but not how. I would like to know WHAT is going on musically in his work. For example: what is going on harmonically in, say, this second movement: both in regards to the relations between the individual instruments and also in the piece as a whole. Again, what is going on temporally within such work? One thing has always puzzled me in particular about the Avante Garde: I understand the Modernist thrust to "make it new" and can clearly see how this would work in fine art or literature but, given that musical intonation is governed by physics - ie: that consonant relations between intervals on the Western Major Scale are governed by "sympathetic" vibrational frequencies at key points along that scale weren't composers such as Webern tilting at windmills? Take 12 tone music: excuse my crassness but, does such a system "work" purely because someone said it does and then runs with it? Again, if this is the case isn't it being obtuse for the sake of it? For a literal example of what I'm getting at: Won't a b5 triad chord always produce that tri-tone dissonance because the physical laws governing the harmonic relations between the notes of the chord produce this dissonance? If this reading is correct I could get with someone composing music that is knowingly dissonant - ie in order to represent harrowing or traumatic experience or abstract concepts for example but what I struggle with is when composers devise systems seemingly in order to theoretically legitimise such dissonance as being harmonically sound. Again, if one was to take, say, a suspended chord, the overall affect produced is generally felt to be unresolved and, thus, begging a final "solid" chord to achieve resolution. Do composers such as Webern believe such chordal functions / affects as this to be due to nothing more than tradition and familiarity as opposed to a quirk of Human psychology? (Indeed, I'm not certain which is true myself! Do we commonly hear suspended chords as unresolved because of hundreds of years of convention or is it something that is hard wired, so to speak? If it is purely due to convention then I "get" what Schoenberg, Webern were up to. If it IS "hard-wired" however, what was the point?). Alright, I'm playing Devil's Advocate somewhat here; I do enjoy the work of many Modernist composers but I do think that there would be much to be gained if someone were able to explain to the layman in simple, none technical language, what is going on, not philosophically but MUSICALLY with someone like Webern. Somebody once claimed something along the lines of this: logic and theory can be extended to THEORETICALLY prove just about anything on paper; even that an elephant can hang suspended from a cliff side with its tail being attached to nothing more than a daisy. Our lived experience does not re-in force this however. I guess what this statement suggests is that "The map is not the territory" and, In our current discussion, this then begs the question: what constitutes music? Is any organised sound valid as music as long as it "works on paper", theoretically and intellectually irrespective of the aural result? Is work from such as Schoenberg and Webern given the time of day purely because the composers were trained musicians coming from conservatories and could demonstrate an intellectual framework underpinning their work? Would such an intellectual framework be discernible to an audience if asked to discern between a work by Webern and that of a completely untrained musician producing dissonant sound on a stage? When does "music" dissolve into "noise" and vice versa? What's the sound of one hand clapping? I think Tom Cruise as Jerry Maguire (I think!?!) said it best: "Explain it to me as if I were a child"!
Alright there's a lot going on in this comment that I haven't even read all of it but I just wanted to answer right away that 12-tone music doesn't work "just because". It's a system to create atonal music, it was developed to make such music because classical Western harmonic theory didn't have a method of doing so. Now if you're meaning is atonal music itself just made for the sake of doing it, that's on your own taste. Personally I think it is an effective method when used on certain things. One example I can think of is most obviously in horror film scores. Atonality is inherently a bit creepy, it sounds like someone doing all the "wrong" things. But there are just pieces of atonal music I enjoy generally, perhaps you might also someday. Hope this was somewhat insightful.
Yes, thank you. I take your point and I'm in agreement. It doesn't quite solve my problem and I suspect this is primarily because I expressed myself poorly in my original post. I shouldn't have used 12 tone music as an example because I wasn't primarily meaning to refer to atonality or tonal ambiguity. In simple terms my points can be boiled down to this: 1/ is / was composing entire works or building entire careers on foundations of dissonance a pointless task or fools errand? And, 2/ Given that consonance is explained by physical laws, is attempting to musically legitimise entire works of dissonance by recourse to complex theory nothing more than a sophistry? I obviously take your point on the use of dissonance for affect in film music and I would extend this and posit that dissonance is very effective in any number of settings. However, such use is - generally - used sparingly, in instances and this is how such instances retain their affect and utility. I am, however, firstly, unconvinced that entire works (or indeed, entire careers) based on dissonance have utility or validity as "music" outside of the rarified environment of the conservatoire and, secondly, very dubious that the theory underpinning and legitimising such musical dissonance is anything more than a self validating construct aimed at fellow members of the conservatoire and making sense only to the same. As such, this could only serve to render such music as an elitist intellectual exercise and, whilst free expression and experimentation in the arts is a MUST and something I would defend to the hilt, any music that is intelligible only to the intellects of a tutored elite struggles to be legitimately useful in my book. I would posit that, whether for a film score or not, your average none musician could achieve a dissonant piece much, much easier than they could achieve consonance...... with recourse to absolutely no theory what so ever. Again, can I just finish by reiterating that I do personally enjoy many Modernist works and, I AM playing Devil's Advocate here somewhat. However, I am serious in my critique and questioning here. Thanks again for your post.
@@beefheart1410 _"Is work from such as Schoenberg and Webern given the time of day purely because the composers were trained musicians coming from conservatories and could demonstrate an intellectual framework underpinning their work?"_ Schoenberg and Webern are given the time of day because people- including myself- find value in their work. The Second Viennese school were the apotheosis of three centuries of increasing chromaticism and dissonance (and rhythmic complexity, let's not forget!) in Western music. If consonant note relations were the name of the game, I could play a C Major chord on the keyboard, have my bull mastiff sleep on the sustain pedal, go make a sandwich, and out-consonance Bach!
I think is analysis is seriously flawed in his claim that Webern's music is not developmental. This is to totally miss Webern's real contribution. In fact, Webern's short, highly charged compositions are developmental in a profound sense. Each piece is an unfolding of material - and for those whose ear has been trained and attuned to 12 tone music, understand and recognize, on a global level, which notes have not yet appeared in an unfolding of the tone row, and are able to anticipate what is to come - both melodically, and in terms of the kind of intervals which will imminently appear. If that is not development - I don't know what is. Only the uninitiated perceive these pieces as a serious of unconnected events.
Great video! Hey, that map looking thing on the wall (what is it? Transylvania?), behind your right shoulder is a centimeter or two off of being perfectly straight. Please attend to this. Thank you.
@@samuel_andreyev If you insist. Of course, if the camera was off kilter, all the other frames would be off, too. Maybe you've been listening to too much Weburn and Van Vliet? Yes, I think that's it. At any rate, I'm enjoying your videos immensely. Thanks! You're quite the scholar. Your audience is small, but that will change in the next 100+ years or so.
One of his violinist colleagues-- Krasner, I think-- thought that Webern's death was a 'suicide by cop'. He had turned his idealism and German personality to see only the best of the Nazi regime, and at the end of the war he realized that he had completely backed the wrong horse. So he deliberately went outside after curfew and lit a cigarette in a place that a sentry would see him. That was the theory, anyway. Not sure if any scholars have bought the idea.
I have a peculiar request for you. Have you ever read Adorno's Philosophy of new music? If so, would you care to comment on it? I'm a philosopher and I invested a lot of efforts in his work, but the musical aspects of it are sometimes beyond my grasp. I'm curious if it has any resonance with contemporary composers. I assume a lot of what he says is common ground now, but still, I don't know of any philosopher who has talked of music so extensively. I'm posting this here because of course Adorno was very interested in Webern's music. What you said about it in this video gives me a clearer picture why. I personally have a lot of problems getting beyond Mahler and romanticism in general. I can barely see the subjectivity in something like Webern's music. In fact, I seem to remember that Adorno stated one of the goal of the second Viennese school was to eliminate subjectivity from music altogether... and he would say this ultimately results in the most subjective of musical pieces. I understand the dialectics of it but I have no idea what this means from a musical standpoint.
87Julius Thank you for this very interesting question. I have read Adorno's Philosophy of New Music, but I'll refrain from commenting in detail on that work because I've heard it's not particularly well-translated, and my German is not yet solid enough to attempt to read it in the original. I can't speak for my colleagues, but for me Adorno's influence has been non-existent. I find it irrelevant when someone who is not primarily a musician (I know Adorno studied with Berg and composed at various points) philosophizes about what he thinks composers should be doing. However, I can understand how philosophers would find his work compelling. I also object to his characterization of Stravinsky in the book. Stravinsky and Schoenberg had more in common than he indicates, and both relied to a great extend on neoclassical forms to provide a scaffolding for their works in the interwar period. As for an absence of subjectivity in Webern, I don't recall any such assertion in Adorno, but it would surprise me, as Webern wrote intensely subjective music, fusing renaissance rigour with post romantic expressive excess. However, in Adorno's defense, it took a long time for Webern's aesthetic project to be properly understood. Best regards.
Thank you for taking the time to answer. Just to precise my point, I didn't say that Adorno said there was no subjectivity in Webern - quite the contrary in fact, he considered his music to be supremely subjective. I doubt you could accuse him of not understanding Webern. It's me, personally, that doesn't understand Webern. As a listener, I can't find subjectivity in his work like I can in something like Mahler. I don't see any subjectivity in Webern and atonal music other than the expression of anguish... which, of course, is quite subjective. But if his entire music expresses anguish, then there is no contrast, no joy, no sadness, no anger, no hope, no amusement, no relief. Anguish in fact might just be the subject loosing himself, losing the ability to feel other less extreme emotions. As you say here, Webern had a difficult life and lived in supremely difficult times. That makes his music difficult to approach. I'm not sure one can even connect with someone else's anguish, as anguish seems to me to have grounds in a feeling of isolation, of being cut off from the world. To me, the music of this period is an expression of anguish, which again is both totally subjective and totally objective. In one of your videos on the sonata, you mention the "home" where music has to come back to. But I don't see any of that in Webern ; there's no safe environment in his music. There's nothing to come back to. These composers had effectively their homes torn apart from them. I would think the violence of it all was the objective component of the music. To me that makes it very opaque.
Thanks for your response. Lots of composers had terrible lives and lived in difficult times -- Schubert, Schumann, Beethoven, Mozart and many others come to mind. I wouldn't say that this fact makes their music particularly difficult to approach. As for Webern only expressing anguish, I would argue that there is in fact a range of emotional expression in Webern if you look for it, but you have to listen to many different pieces. The earlier works are indeed, sometimes (but not always) rather tortured sounding. What is particular with him is the fact that he only occupies the register of the paroxysm, of the absolute identification of the subject with his or her emotional state. Thus, we have either absolute ecstasy, or absolute anguish, with little in between. The later works are remarkable, I think, for the extraordinary air of peacefulness and repose that flows out of them. Listen to the Variations for Orchestra, or the piano Variations. Of course, I can't teach you to appreciate the emotive qualities of Webern; on some level, it either speaks to you or it doesn't. Finally, the idea of the 'home' in the sonata form is manifest in Webern as well, but it sinks down to a very deep structural level that can perhaps be felt, but not always easily understood only by listening to the music. Again, it may take intensive listening to become sensitized to these phenomena, but it doesn't mean they aren't at play in the music. Best regards.
I'm sure this is obvious, probably even intentional, but if you took the name "Webern" out of this analysis, this video is almost indistinguishable from your analysis of Frownland.
I'm always surprised that nobody mentions that Webern was a convinced Nazi, while in much "greyer" cases like Furtwängler it is mentioned all the time. This doesn't change that he is one of the most significant composers of the 20. century. However , it is also part of who he was, there is a great deal of ideology also in his music.
That's not true. His letters show he was far from enthusiastic about the Nazi party. His biographers go into this subject at some depth (Moldenhauer, Galliari et al). The Nazis ruined Webern's livelihood. Although his son was a party member.
@@samuel_andreyev It is true that he was not part of the party establishment, however ideologically he was fully committed, and much more so than Furtwängler, and a fervent admirer of Hitler.
Interesting commentary, BUT, this composers name is Anton Webern NOT Anton von Webern as you call him in 1st second of vid. Hard to confuse him with (1786 - 1826).
I quite like his music, but just that lack of linear trajectory is main problem with Webern´s music for me. For me music must have drive and must go from point A to point B. Fortunately Webern was smart enought and know, that this kind of music music is bearable only for short period of time so his compositions is often very small.
I can understand that. It's clearly not for everyone. I wonder what you think about pre-baroque music? Because it, too, is more or less devoid of 'drive', being more focused on short movements and very localized resolutions of dissonances without much in the way of a strong directionality. Best regards.
The problen with Webern is that his music is so reduced that it does not give the average listener much to hang on to. If one goes far enough in that direction only sceintific analyses remains to unearth the subtlety and then such output, on average, becomes music for scholars. It's the age old problem of weighing originality against accesibility.
@@samuel_andreyev I didn't talk about the average listener, now did I? I do however grant you I used the word "average". As per my ealier remark here about recognition: My definition of a broad enough acceptence would already be to touch a "mass" of people big enough to guarantee the composer a good income but also a basis for long term recognition. Talking of atonal tendencies: You would do me a very big favour by listening to my latest piece: The Griffon And The Bringer Of Fire ( www.brassee.com/electronicmusic.html#griffon ). I assure you it will not hurt (much). :-)
Eugene Sedita Yes. Hans and Rosaleen Moldenhauer wrote what is still the definitive biography in English. It's out of print but used copies are not hard to find.
Something I love about the internet is you can find experts on just about anything and each one is deeply passionate about their respective subject. I love learning about 20th century and contemporary composers, and I'm glad I found a channel that can help me do that. Thanks!
I met his grandson some years ago and was invited into his home. Where I was shown various letters/paper/manuscripts and his furnishings that survived of his grandfather. I hope that there are still in the families possession. Thank you for this 'synopsis'
How interesting! this was in Austria?
i like how the red book right besides your right shoulder forms the number one due to the over books covering it..
Nice.
That would be the left shoulder, no? Good find though.
Webern was a great composer, I love his Symphony Op 21, specially the first movement, where he creates a very private, intimate and soft speaking world.
Beautiful and clear presentation of the vision of Webern. I'm a retired musicologist and wish my presentations on Webern in
the classroom over the years had been as amazing! Keep up the good work!
My favorite Webern work is the Cantata Opus 29. The second movement is extraordinary for its long line, which is like that of a Mozart aria. The best performance I've heard is with Günter Wand, now out of print, I believe. Webern remarked that in time children in the streets would be singing his music, and this cantata really is immediately appealing.
This is an excellent, and compelling explanation of Webern's later work. There may be an article, as far as I know, yet unwritten, that compares the notion of minimalism as contrasted by Webern and Phillip Glass. Were I to engage, the title might be, "Why the music of Phillip Glass and Anton Webern are two sides of the minimalist coin" The contrast being, Glass takes small events, and repetitively elongates them through constant but subtle repetition and instrumental changes, while Webern succinctly condenses numerous ideas.
“You’re not going to throw on a Webern CD while you’re doing the dishes.”
I beg to differ...
I try, but my girlfriend seems to prefer something a little more, uh, conventional. So I switch to Berg or Varese, and we’re all good.
@@curiousnomad I love your girlfriend
Cool
You can't hurt me, I listen to Beefheart...
@@tribudeuno Lol back in my rock and roll days I couldn’t listen to most bands after hearing captain beefheart. And same thing happened again for the second Viennese. I still can’t say I know how to appreciate their work but they just made almost everyone else uninteresting in comparison
Been looking for a channel such as yours for a while, loving this stuff. Webern fucks with my head, many of his pieces I can't listen to in a single sitting due to its overwhelming intensity.... such a master
HallMonitor So glad to hear you like the channel. Looking forward to hearing from you again.
Thank you for this! I learned of Webern through a recent New Yorker magazine concert listing that described his music as "crystalline serialism". I had no idea what that meant, but it sounded interesting - and it is. You're right that I wouldn't put Webern on while doing the dishes, but I'm listening at work and, to my untrained ear, it is quite pleasing. (Quartet op. 22, Three Little Pieces, op. 11)
Thank you for the information!
I have heard the story that Stravinsky, after intending to listen to Webern's music, quickly stopped listening, since he became worried that it would have too much of an impact on his own style. I kind of wish that you had gone into Webern's use of butterfly symmetry. I have also heard that Webern wrote short pieces since he believed that the human ear couldn't take extended serial music...
look to my sonata N2, thanks
Concerning about brevity in Webern's twelve-tone technique. I studied this technique and I can say: IT IS EXTREMELY HARD TO DEAL WITH 12-TONE TECHNIQUE. Webern was a student of Medieval and Renaissance counterpoint, particularly that of Adrian Willaert. His Op. 21 uses, throughout the first movement, Medieval isorhrythmic technique to sctructure it. Webern wrote his music using counterpoint technique to structure his pieces, along with "mirrors" technique. And even having a "known" way of composing, it was for Webern hard do deliver something interesting. But he did and a lot. When you listen to dodecaphonic music, or even total serialism, you have to pay attention to fragments, blocks of chords, melodic cells, intervals. Webern knew he had not old forms to compose anymore (and listeners was not so used to 12-tone music). He created a very concise style to make music. Only the strict necessary stuff is in his musical creations. Nothing more.
Every few years I return to Webern and hear him anew. Yesterday it was Sinopoli's recording of the Symphony Op.21 that made me truly feel like I was "hearing" that piece. The interpretation by the performer really matters with Webern.
This is a very interesting channel, thank you! It is great to hear an expert talk about things we love.
I think "instants of almost limitless potential to signify" is the best in-a-nutshell description of Webern's music I've ever heard.
I'm so glad I found this channel!
Thanks for the informative simplicity (if that makes any sense)
Thanks for that very nice enticing introduction!
I loved your vid.
I listened to the Op.11 example at .25 speed. Still incredibly dense.
Listening to Webern while food shopping was fun.
I love Webern. He was mentioned in a John Cage book I read and I was already prepared to listen to his work, also after having been an avid Schoenberg listener. I have also seen modern pieces performed at the Pierre Boulez concert hall in Berlin, I loved the crowd, we were all so thirsty for weird. 😂 It’s so good to see modern classical music live. It was conducted by Daniel Barenboim- amazing.
Absolutely brilliant explanation of such an exceptional composer. Thank you.
Love the Slow Movement for String Quartet from 1905.
In 1998, I used Webern's Op. 5 to accompany the dance piece I choreographed after translating into movement those of Charles Baudelaire's poems that use cats as metaphors for sexuality. *insert deep breath - whew!* That work got me into the MFA program for dance at UCLA!
Webern has been my favorite of all composers for a very long time. I think hearing you talk about his music existing outside of time and narrative has finally helped me understand why. You mentioned moments of ecstasy - or something to that effect - and that is the moment when it all finally fell into place for me (as the 30-second section of Op. 11 was on the screen). I was interested in presenting Baudelaire's maximum of intoxicated addiction and luxuriating sensuality against Webern's maximum of sober efficiency and ascetic logic. That intersection has been the place where I live artistically.
I have Bipolar II Disorder, and for many years I was undiagnosed and/or improperly medicated. My emotions and thoughts were exhausting. I'm also very obsessive about layering nuanced perfection into everything I make. Comparing their lives, these two men were exact opposites in many ways, yet both ultimately ended tragically under circumstances that would have extinguished lesser artists' inspiration. I have always felt a deep kinship to both of them, from a creative perspective. Thankfully, I have found ways to establish stability that these two never enjoyed.
In this video, you just helped me understand (after 25 years) why I felt/sensed so deeply that Webern's music is "perfect," even though researching him in the past has not helped - reading books that explain 12-tone rows is definitely a good way to gut my enjoyment of his compositions (and yet, I love it when they get past the math, and just highlight what has happened). Your point: It's not meant to be a narrative, or a sequence necessarily. It's made of individual cells that evolve in complex ways that might or might not be obvious, even under intense scrutiny.
That was my mindscape for the 38 years while I was untreated.
I experienced constant rapid cycling in my emotions and ideas. Every moment was simultaneously surrounded by everything else in a general context, but also detached, unpredictable, and inexplicable. Terrifying, yes; however, also very exhilarating. Whereas for "normal" people his music is offputting nonsense, to me it was matching pace with my shifting colors and outbursts. By the time I lost interest in a movement idea, Webern had already shifted focus to a new sound idea, too. Webern played to my mind and soul, and Baudelaire spoke to my body and heart.
I have always heard music lovers say Webern's work is unlistenable. To your point, maybe they were trying to lose themselves in the structures and themes/variations/motifs/developments? I think all of this is different for dancers. We inhabit and manifest the music, without necessarily knowing/understanding the score and its underlying technical nuances. Perhaps we respond to it, rather than about it? All I know is that, regardless of whether it is listenable or not, Webern's music (despite itself/perhaps ironically) is extremely danceable.
fascinating. you made my evening.
A fascinating discourse on this composer, very articulate and persuasive...
While hitch hiking around The U.S. 79 to 81, I spent some time at I. U. Hanging out around with Dean of Jazz David Baker and the Composition dept. The music Dept was then a huge circular multi-story building. In that time before magnetic keys I was always mistaken for a student. Anyway the absolute reverence with which all the composers I met at that time held Anton Webern in really caught my attention. So I have to admit even though l love Berg (whose life wasn't as tragic) I sit up and pay strict attention when I listen to Webern cause its so distilled; if you don't it's vanished in the air.
Excellent short summary and good rebuttals to those who don't show respect for serial music.
What a riveting presentation! Brilliant! Thank you!
Webern actual minimalism no repitition distilled condensed elegant chilling important I like it.
No repetitions!?! The first movement of his Symphonie Op. 28 has two sections, both repeated in full!
thank you so much for your video. I remember attending in La Rochelle (France) in a music festival a conference about opus 10, with an orchestra demonstrating each measure of this wonderful jewel, how it was built and made sense. Great memory!
I'm about to film a concert with pasacaille n°1 and your comment will help me a lot
I'll try to see more of your videos
M P I'm very glad it was helpful for you -- I love those orchestral pieces, there's always some new detail to discover in them. Best regards.
Totally agree with what you say here, especially about the fact that the post war composers mistook his means for 'ends'. I've loved listening and being challenged by his music for most of my adult life...I think my kids will look at life more forgivingly and patiently because I listen to Webern with them now.
Rediscover Ease Alexander Technique Well, Webern dreamed of a day when children would be whistling his music.. :)
my opinion on atonalism is that it is very interesting and beautiful but only if it is short. So I think he was right creating short movements in his work.
For me, Webern was the only composer who understood totally 12-tone technique and its possibilities of creation for a 20th century musical language. Schoenberg and Berg was still "poisoned" with Romanticist pathos and way of expressions typicals from the 19th. century. After 2nd Vienese School, I also like Babbit and Pierre Boulez 12-tone compositions (Le Marteau Sans Maitre is a genius' work).
To be remembered at all is already a precious gift.
yes, im work in my sonata N2 now, i post the first movement on YT, a week ago, its more like boulez, but with touch of webern poetic.
Early in the century I attended a concert by a string quartet in Madrid, where I used to live. They program started with a string quartet by Mozart. I observed the people nearby and they seemed to be mesmerised, really enjoying themselves. I was bored, to say the least. The next piece they played was a string quartet by Webern. I noticed some people were fidgeting through their programs. It was not long before I had tears rolling down both cheeks. The music was so intense, just what I needed. I've heard his early work Ein Sommerwind played live on a couple of occasions. Unfortunately, it does not merit an opus number and is not included in either of my boxed sets of his "complete" works, one featuring Robert Craft as conductor and the other one with Pierre Boulez.
I love his music... so hauntingly beautiful! I like to say his musical style is "maximalism."
thank you for uploading about anton webern
There’s a remarkable poem by Drew Milne called ‘A Broken Cast,’ dedicated to the memory of Webern. It can be found in Milne’s collected poems, In Darkest Capital (2017). Read it to see how the poet finds prosodic and other linguistic and poetic ‘equivalents’ for Webernian modes of expression. A great video, btw.
Hi Redford! Thanks for your intelectually enriching comment in the first place. I got the 'In Darkest Capital', but it does not contain a poem 'A Broken Cast' you are refering to. Any idea where else I might find it? Thanks a lot! R. JS
I am so ancient that the only access to all the known music of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern was through the Robert Craft CBS recordings. Now, on UA-cam, the performances of the opus 10 pieces run into double figures. At the time of writing I am back looking at those pieces but I am still absorbing the first movement, which is more surprising than ever. The final gesture (F repeated four times) sounds more and more like a cadence. It also subtly harks back to the opening three notes with the colouration. In between there is a journey, albeit some twenty odd seconds, but a journey it is.
I admit that Webern is't for everybody, but everybody a least has the chance now to hear his music.
I cannot tell you my glee when, on a TV serial, one character pulled out an LP of the the then quite new Boulez CBS set, which I bought almost as soon as it hit the shelves. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was the opening of the Symphony, opus 21. My mind followed the contours of the canons and I had to snap out of it to concentrate on the dialogue.
Thank you for making this wonderful video….
Bravo, very well done, 10 minutes very wel spent. Webern will always be my favourite composer. Dutch composer Willem Pijper had a similar comment as Schoenberg's (Sigh-Novel) by claiming that a single note of Webern is like a Mahler symphony.
Loving your lecture! Thank you!
Thank you for making this video.
It's my pleasure. Thanks for making your way here.
Thanks again . I need this channel !I need to find some papers on opus 10. How many people recognized the importance of his work before and during WW2. Sad we lost so much . But what we do have is awfully difficult to hear . Betsy Jonas in your interview with her mentions this was the first work of Webern (Boulez championed him) she had a chance to hear . I've seen the score . He's famous for being a perfectionist and writing these miniatures full of "ideas,worth noticing " A few seconds of Boulez even to a deaf guy is eventladen and unforgettable . Webern -I've yet to discover but have owned a few scores over 30 years . Maybe now , I'll start the work (deciphering ) .What can be heard I wonder . "Months to unravel it all " The challenge will spur many to discover ...
The Op.7 4 pieces for Violin and Piano is a very affecting composition. I first heard it on a recital disc of Anne-Sophie Mutter w/Lambert Orkis. The program also included Prok.'s Sonata for Violin Op. 94a, Four Nocturnes by George Crumb, and Sonata for Violin by Respighi. I really like the Crumb composition.
Not to plug myself, but there's a video on my channel called "Christmas in Sunset Hills" that sets video footage of Christmas decorations in my town to the first of the Op. 7 pieces. I think it's a fitting visual accompaniment to the 'pointillism' of Webern's music.
A great intelegent review. Thanks
You're welcome, thanks for watching.
Subconscious motives wrote behaviors not to be confused with observership.
I dearly love what came through the man.
Thank you so much.
The first time I heard Webern, I was in Awe of the absolute Intensity. It has the same effect, now after 40 some odd years. There is nothing quite like it. Thanks for your short documentary. Can you imagine an hour long documentary on the originator of Minimalism? Although, I'd watch that too, considering how much I love his music.
Masterful Presentation !
Nice summary! No, 10 minutes or 10 years won't do justice to Webern and his achievements, but what's presented here is the sum of a great effort. I've been enamored by Webern's work since the mid-80's when I got the six LP set of Boulez's famous compendium. Since the age of 19 I couldn't stop listening, and the sense of discovery with every gesture in all of Webern's pieces is like walking into a cathedral and marveling at the architects and masons who made it all possible. If anything, his music teaches the art of restraint.
Great video, thank you. Webern is one of my favourite composers. I hope you make more videos like this.
Can you comment or make a video about who you think are the most innovative living composers?
At the moment, I'm listening to Heinz Holliger, Rebecca Saunders, Helmut Lachenmann, Franck Bedrossian, Mark Andre, Unsuk Chin..
Ze X I'm an oboist as well! Holliger's music is definitely strange. You have to be in the mood :)
Ze X Cool! Holliger's a great musician. I interviewed him in Saarbrucken a few years ago -- perhaps I'll post it here..
Thank you Samuel
Well said.
It wasn't until I read the book of conversations between Robert Craft and Igor Stravinsky that I understood the true difference between early and 'middle-period' (as he was never granted a true late period) Webern- namely, that Webern was going through his own Neo-Classical phase. Webern wrote his String Quartet Op. 28 around the time Stravinsky wrote Dumbarton Oaks, and while vastly different in scale and musical grammar, both look backwards towards Classical forms, and we can describe both using terms we'd use to generalize capital-'C' Classical music- stately, architectonic, and perhaps the slightest bit dry. There was also the tempering influence of Schoenberg's method, whose deployment I'm convinced was largely motivated by the fact both Schoenberg and Webern were struggling with extended forms in a free atonal musical grammar, despite Schoenberg's high-minded rationalizations otherwise.
My own preferences lean towards Webern's early miniatures, even if I find myself listening to the later works more often. His interest in early music makes sense to me, as I can hear fleeting suggestions of plainsong in parts of those early works, and ostinato sections that remind me of Perotin. On the other end, in the second Cantata, I almost hear him reconnecting with Romanticism- but a florid, love-of-God-and-nature Romanticism, rather than the tortured expressionism of Mahler and Schoenberg.
Instructions unclear, threw a Webern CD in the dishwasher.
Good stuff mang, Keep up the good work.
This is a great video, thank you!
very interesting and, especially, helpful. thank you
'It's like eating Octopus' - wonderful!
This video was very enlightening. I've enjoyed op 7 Vier Stucke played by Isaac Stern and Webern's op 11 for cello and piano. I have not yet been able to warm up to the variations for piano. I'm going to play them on the piano until they make sense to me. I'll give every piece of Webern involving piano the attention it deserves. (Takemitsu's Rain Sketches are based on Webern so I'll relearn those pieces too. ) . Thanks for the excellent video.
You're welcome. The early lieder (for soprano and piano) are worth looking at. There is a complete edition of those pieces from Carl Fischer that is inexpensive and worth having. They are great pieces and hardly ever performed. There is also an early Rondo for piano, written in a post-Brahmsian style.
www.amazon.com/VF10-Anton-Webern-Collection/dp/0825856590
I like Webern's brand of "minimalism". All the spaces in between the sounds seem to give me time to process wtf just happened. The lack of repetition keeps me on my toes. When there is repetition, it is subtle. As opposed to the minimalism of Reich, Riley or Glass where the repetition is constant and deliberate; the repetition serves a purpose but my brain gets bored af. The way I see it, Webern's music offers a challenge or an mental exercise while still being concise and substantive. Again, as opposed to composers in the 80s who exploited the complexity of Webern's work in their own compositions, of which I view to be "complexity for the sake of complexity". There's more to Webern's music than just it's compositional difficulty. There's some serious emotions to be found... That's just my opinion :) Love you, Samuel!
Thank you for this insightful video. One thought that came to mind while listening to Webern was that my appreciation of his music might partly stem from my experiences with other music: his music feels so concise because the sounds reference other music with precision, so that they act as tokens of other music. Though I can't test if this is really the case, since I can't forget the music I've heard in the past. Some of the most powerful music I've heard either way.
I think that's absolutely right. When you listen to Webern, you can't help but hear it through the lens of the music that preceded it historically (especially from a gestural / affective point of view, since Webern is steeped in late romanticism) -- and to hear it negatively, in terms of the ways in which it is different from that music. I think that's what some listeners find so challenging about it.
I don't think so much of the very short pieces being outside time but as the last left overs. vestuges of time In particular the example you gave above. I think it opens a wrench into the bowels of time. time. It comes from that whole process of removing extraneous formaily in time until a last shred of development is left over in Webern Once when introducing Webern to friends witha very brief piece It is dark - imagine a flash of lightning which permits you to catch a glimpse of a leaf, a twig and .he feathers of a bird This helped to fix the musical images. Webern was a self-a effacing man. I hear this even in the Passacaglia But Ithink he got to the pinit where he thought he could withdraw and let the twelve tones speak for themselves, a fetish I prefer the atonal works of Webern and Schoenberg, before getting stuck in the twelve tone system, Alban Berg never did get stuck in them. It's true that Webern had a great influence after the war, But Boulez who started as a Webernian, changed his mind and prefered the freeer structures of Alban Berg. All open to dicussion
Amazing channel man! Never been able to appreciate classical music before I started watching your videos. Any chance of seeing some Jazz analysis?
Benjamin Woollard Thank you, I'm thrilled to hear that -- it's why I started the channel. Jazz isn't my area of expertise although I do enjoy it. Hope to hear from you again.
Nicely done!
You should add suggestions with regards to the chronology, i think. Or actually just more annotation in general: every time i'm watching your lectures -- there are names of works mentioned, frequently in multiple languages and it's sometimes hard to catch or to keep track of them once i'm through the video and want to look them up. Maybe type them out in the description of the video as if in "Works mentioned" or something! A bit narcissistic of me, probably, but it's just jaw-dropping how you know them all by heart and the specificity. Great insight, thank you!
Thanks for your feedback -- I'm adding the names of works mentioned in the video description.
LANGSAMER SATZ, a string quartet written in 1905, is his finest work! It's TONAL!!
OKAY!!!
Thank you for this, Webern is the composer who influences me the most. I consider all of his work to be a romantic gesture. Everything is incredibly beautiful once the aesthetic is understood. Hearing the first chord in the piano part of his "4 pieces for violin and piano" was the exact moment I understood it all, seems strange but it's true.
Nick Satie it doesn't seem strange. For me it was the op. 5 string quartet..
Yeah, I swear it was an almost mystical experience listening to the 5th movement of that for the first time.
I am appreciating Your comment about Herr Anton von Webern and , humbly saying that , I would rather follow Your indication, in order to try and understand his compositionsBest Rgards by the way : I would be since some decade, a humble book pupil of Herr Arnold Schoenberg
Thank you for your kind words. I'm planning a Schoenberg video -- stay tuned!
Brilliant! I loved it.
Beautifully put together video Samuel. Thank you.
You make some very relevant points. I particularly think your thoughts on how musical events happen in a mature Webern composition very significant. Especially in regard to temporal perception.
The music of Webern is profoundly emotional and you highlight this fact.
Far too much time is spent IMHO examining the process and not the visceral effects of A W's art.
I think Webern's own comment about his early opuses ( "They are all about the death of my mother") is indicative of an emotional reaction. So why do so many people still want to approach this music as if they were in a composition analysis class? Or to put it another way don't other people have mothers too?!?
Exposure is clearly the starting point and (as you rightly say) repetition. In fact a composition like Op. 11 would probably benefit from being performed and heard twice at a recital.
Eventually (well hopefully) the penny will drop and these magically condensed musical worlds will reveal themselves to the attentive listener for what they are: Superbly constructed tapestries of sound. Exquisite in their miniature detail.
It is (I cannot stress enough) highly emotional music. Almost tragic at times in its pathos. Explosive moments followed by profound silences. But also graceful and tender at other times. The novel in a sigh comment by Schoenberg really says it all.
Some may believe elitism and the ivory tower to be the true home for Webern and his art but I think not. It speaks for and of humanity and the human condition as much as say Van Gough, Euripides, Tarkovsky, Shakespeare et al.
Absolutely agree
thanks so much for the video
Thanks for making this video, it was great. I prefer his early works, his later works can be really hard to listen to. I recommend you to listen Takashi YOSHIMATSU - Threnody to Toki , there are some elements of Takashi's music that remind me of Anton von Weberns later works.
Stern Ritter Thank you. I'll check out Yoshimatsu.
It's fabulous music is old Webern. As an improvising composer my earlier days were full of long pieces and as I've matured the pieces have become shorter, in many respects I have no control over that.
Thanks for this.
amazing video!
great video
my record store guy highly recommended i pick up a of Webern album he just came across. i love unusual atonal music, but didn't love Webern all that much. given this video though, i will defiantly listen to it harder. nice video.
Thanks Zach. Appreciate your taking the time to write.
Can you please do a George Crumb explained in 10 minutes?
Really good 👍
Samuel Andreyev, Thank you for this . Well done. Well thought out and well explained. Are you a pianist? Repertoire on UA-cam ?
Much appreciated.
I'm watching this video because I just saw the video of The Mike Douglas Show where the legendary musician Frank Zappa said he liked listening to Anton Von Webem. No surprising to me, now that I see this video and see the correlation between the two in being unusual composers. Here is the link of that interview and Frank mentions Anton at the ten minutes and eight seconds point of that video. ua-cam.com/video/kSPdg4yPwAg/v-deo.html
I could never get into Zappa's music, and it's not for want of trying. For his 'art music' Zappa was adept at capturing the surface of modernist music, without ever capturing the animating ideas. If you want to piss off a music snob, tell them Kip Winger is ten times the composer Zappa is- a contrarian opinion that also has the benefit of being true.
@@DeflatingAtheism Well, good thing we all have the freedom to like what we like and not be swayed by others. Right Mr. Deflater ??
My octopus in music is the singing in piece like Wozzeck or Lulu; all the rest tastes good to me
The truly consequential question is: _Can Humor Belong In 12-tone?_
Try the Passacaglia. It's great!
Frank Zappa brought me here.
me too
I have loved Webern my entire life and you sir, made a damn awesome video!! Your choice of orchestral piece was a very good one, it shows how you can be overwhelmed by the lush beauty which washes over you. I don't really understand how people couldn't fall in love with his works. I actually *like* using his music behind processes, like oil painting. You have a stark room with a bright light and you play his entire works on a loop. Wow! it really gets up into you and affects the painting. Thank you again for a video I really enjoyed!
If you find the time please listen to my new form of music, Omni in Spirit melody 3.
ua-cam.com/video/6hSdOFElzcM/v-deo.html
I wish it were possible for someone to explain what is going on in pieces from such as Webern for a general listener with no theoretical musical background. Indeed, given the brevity of the second movement discussed in this post, Webern may be the ideal candidate for such an explication.
From this post I can extrapolate why Webern composed as he did but not how. I would like to know WHAT is going on musically in his work. For example: what is going on harmonically in, say, this second movement: both in regards to the relations between the individual instruments and also in the piece as a whole.
Again, what is going on temporally within such work?
One thing has always puzzled me in particular about the Avante Garde: I understand the Modernist thrust to "make it new" and can clearly see how this would work in fine art or literature but, given that musical intonation is governed by physics - ie: that consonant relations between intervals on the Western Major Scale are governed by "sympathetic" vibrational frequencies at key points along that scale weren't composers such as Webern tilting at windmills?
Take 12 tone music: excuse my crassness but, does such a system "work" purely because someone said it does and then runs with it? Again, if this is the case isn't it being obtuse for the sake of it?
For a literal example of what I'm getting at: Won't a b5 triad chord always produce that tri-tone dissonance because the physical laws governing the harmonic relations between the notes of the chord produce this dissonance?
If this reading is correct I could get with someone composing music that is knowingly dissonant - ie in order to represent harrowing or traumatic experience or abstract concepts for example but what I struggle with is when composers devise systems seemingly in order to theoretically legitimise such dissonance as being harmonically sound.
Again, if one was to take, say, a suspended chord, the overall affect produced is generally felt to be unresolved and, thus, begging a final "solid" chord to achieve resolution. Do composers such as Webern believe such chordal functions / affects as this to be due to nothing more than tradition and familiarity as opposed to a quirk of Human psychology? (Indeed, I'm not certain which is true myself! Do we commonly hear suspended chords as unresolved because of hundreds of years of convention or is it something that is hard wired, so to speak? If it is purely due to convention then I "get" what Schoenberg, Webern were up to. If it IS "hard-wired" however, what was the point?).
Alright, I'm playing Devil's Advocate somewhat here; I do enjoy the work of many Modernist composers but I do think that there would be much to be gained if someone were able to explain to the layman in simple, none technical language, what is going on, not philosophically but MUSICALLY with someone like Webern.
Somebody once claimed something along the lines of this: logic and theory can be extended to THEORETICALLY prove just about anything on paper; even that an elephant can hang suspended from a cliff side with its tail being attached to nothing more than a daisy. Our lived experience does not re-in force this however. I guess what this statement suggests is that "The map is not the territory" and, In our current discussion, this then begs the question: what constitutes music? Is any organised sound valid as music as long as it "works on paper", theoretically and intellectually irrespective of the aural result? Is work from such as Schoenberg and Webern given the time of day purely because the composers were trained musicians coming from conservatories and could demonstrate an intellectual framework underpinning their work? Would such an intellectual framework be discernible to an audience if asked to discern between a work by Webern and that of a completely untrained musician producing dissonant sound on a stage? When does "music" dissolve into "noise" and vice versa?
What's the sound of one hand clapping?
I think Tom Cruise as Jerry Maguire (I think!?!) said it best: "Explain it to me as if I were a child"!
Alright there's a lot going on in this comment that I haven't even read all of it but I just wanted to answer right away that 12-tone music doesn't work "just because". It's a system to create atonal music, it was developed to make such music because classical Western harmonic theory didn't have a method of doing so. Now if you're meaning is atonal music itself just made for the sake of doing it, that's on your own taste. Personally I think it is an effective method when used on certain things. One example I can think of is most obviously in horror film scores. Atonality is inherently a bit creepy, it sounds like someone doing all the "wrong" things. But there are just pieces of atonal music I enjoy generally, perhaps you might also someday. Hope this was somewhat insightful.
Yes, thank you. I take your point and I'm in agreement. It doesn't quite solve my problem and I suspect this is primarily because I expressed myself poorly in my original post.
I shouldn't have used 12 tone music as an example because I wasn't primarily meaning to refer to atonality or tonal ambiguity.
In simple terms my points can be boiled down to this: 1/ is / was composing entire works or building entire careers on foundations of dissonance a pointless task or fools errand? And, 2/ Given that consonance is explained by physical laws, is attempting to musically legitimise entire works of dissonance by recourse to complex theory nothing more than a sophistry?
I obviously take your point on the use of dissonance for affect in film music and I would extend this and posit that dissonance is very effective in any number of settings. However, such use is - generally - used sparingly, in instances and this is how such instances retain their affect and utility. I am, however, firstly, unconvinced that entire works (or indeed, entire careers) based on dissonance have utility or validity as "music" outside of the rarified environment of the conservatoire and, secondly, very dubious that the theory underpinning and legitimising such musical dissonance is anything more than a self validating construct aimed at fellow members of the conservatoire and making sense only to the same.
As such, this could only serve to render such music as an elitist intellectual exercise and, whilst free expression and experimentation in the arts is a MUST and something I would defend to the hilt, any music that is intelligible only to the intellects of a tutored elite struggles to be legitimately useful in my book.
I would posit that, whether for a film score or not, your average none musician could achieve a dissonant piece much, much easier than they could achieve consonance...... with recourse to absolutely no theory what so ever.
Again, can I just finish by reiterating that I do personally enjoy many Modernist works and, I AM playing Devil's Advocate here somewhat. However, I am serious in my critique and questioning here.
Thanks again for your post.
@@beefheart1410 _"Is work from such as Schoenberg and Webern given the time of day purely because the composers were trained musicians coming from conservatories and could demonstrate an intellectual framework underpinning their work?"_
Schoenberg and Webern are given the time of day because people- including myself- find value in their work. The Second Viennese school were the apotheosis of three centuries of increasing chromaticism and dissonance (and rhythmic complexity, let's not forget!) in Western music. If consonant note relations were the name of the game, I could play a C Major chord on the keyboard, have my bull mastiff sleep on the sustain pedal, go make a sandwich, and out-consonance Bach!
I think is analysis is seriously flawed in his claim that Webern's music is not developmental. This is to totally miss Webern's real contribution. In fact, Webern's short, highly charged compositions are developmental in a profound sense. Each piece is an unfolding of material - and for those whose ear has been trained and attuned to 12 tone music, understand and recognize, on a global level, which notes have not yet appeared in an unfolding of the tone row, and are able to anticipate what is to come - both melodically, and in terms of the kind of intervals which will imminently appear. If that is not development - I don't know what is. Only the uninitiated perceive these pieces as a serious of unconnected events.
they’re not collected linearly is what he’s trying to explain
It sounds fine while doing dishes! But water & dish clatter noise do interfere w/ clarity.
Great video! Hey, that map looking thing on the wall (what is it? Transylvania?), behind your right shoulder is a centimeter or two off of being perfectly straight. Please attend to this. Thank you.
It's an old map of Switzerland, and it is in fact quite perfectly level. My camera was slightly off kilter ;)
@@samuel_andreyev If you insist. Of course, if the camera was off kilter, all the other frames would be off, too. Maybe you've been listening to too much Weburn and Van Vliet? Yes, I think that's it.
At any rate, I'm enjoying your videos immensely. Thanks! You're quite the scholar. Your audience is small, but that will change in the next 100+ years or so.
Which recording of Webern's work made by Boulez do you prefer, the one from 1991 or the one from 2000?
Reptile estrin The later one, definitely. The earlier set is quite stiff..
Samuel Andreyev thanks again.
One of his violinist colleagues-- Krasner, I think-- thought that Webern's death was a 'suicide by cop'. He had turned his idealism and German personality to see only the best of the Nazi regime, and at the end of the war he realized that he had completely backed the wrong horse. So he deliberately went outside after curfew and lit a cigarette in a place that a sentry would see him. That was the theory, anyway. Not sure if any scholars have bought the idea.
Now I'm hungry for octopus
Max, watch "My Octopus Teacher" on Netflix. You'll swear off eating Octopus forever!
I have a peculiar request for you. Have you ever read Adorno's Philosophy of new music? If so, would you care to comment on it? I'm a philosopher and I invested a lot of efforts in his work, but the musical aspects of it are sometimes beyond my grasp. I'm curious if it has any resonance with contemporary composers. I assume a lot of what he says is common ground now, but still, I don't know of any philosopher who has talked of music so extensively.
I'm posting this here because of course Adorno was very interested in Webern's music. What you said about it in this video gives me a clearer picture why. I personally have a lot of problems getting beyond Mahler and romanticism in general. I can barely see the subjectivity in something like Webern's music. In fact, I seem to remember that Adorno stated one of the goal of the second Viennese school was to eliminate subjectivity from music altogether... and he would say this ultimately results in the most subjective of musical pieces. I understand the dialectics of it but I have no idea what this means from a musical standpoint.
87Julius Thank you for this very interesting question. I have read Adorno's Philosophy of New Music, but I'll refrain from commenting in detail on that work because I've heard it's not particularly well-translated, and my German is not yet solid enough to attempt to read it in the original. I can't speak for my colleagues, but for me Adorno's influence has been non-existent. I find it irrelevant when someone who is not primarily a musician (I know Adorno studied with Berg and composed at various points) philosophizes about what he thinks composers should be doing. However, I can understand how philosophers would find his work compelling. I also object to his characterization of Stravinsky in the book. Stravinsky and Schoenberg had more in common than he indicates, and both relied to a great extend on neoclassical forms to provide a scaffolding for their works in the interwar period. As for an absence of subjectivity in Webern, I don't recall any such assertion in Adorno, but it would surprise me, as Webern wrote intensely subjective music, fusing renaissance rigour with post romantic expressive excess. However, in Adorno's defense, it took a long time for Webern's aesthetic project to be properly understood. Best regards.
Thank you for taking the time to answer. Just to precise my point, I didn't say that Adorno said there was no subjectivity in Webern - quite the contrary in fact, he considered his music to be supremely subjective. I doubt you could accuse him of not understanding Webern. It's me, personally, that doesn't understand Webern. As a listener, I can't find subjectivity in his work like I can in something like Mahler. I don't see any subjectivity in Webern and atonal music other than the expression of anguish... which, of course, is quite subjective. But if his entire music expresses anguish, then there is no contrast, no joy, no sadness, no anger, no hope, no amusement, no relief. Anguish in fact might just be the subject loosing himself, losing the ability to feel other less extreme emotions. As you say here, Webern had a difficult life and lived in supremely difficult times. That makes his music difficult to approach. I'm not sure one can even connect with someone else's anguish, as anguish seems to me to have grounds in a feeling of isolation, of being cut off from the world. To me, the music of this period is an expression of anguish, which again is both totally subjective and totally objective. In one of your videos on the sonata, you mention the "home" where music has to come back to. But I don't see any of that in Webern ; there's no safe environment in his music. There's nothing to come back to. These composers had effectively their homes torn apart from them. I would think the violence of it all was the objective component of the music. To me that makes it very opaque.
Thanks for your response. Lots of composers had terrible lives and lived in difficult times -- Schubert, Schumann, Beethoven, Mozart and many others come to mind. I wouldn't say that this fact makes their music particularly difficult to approach. As for Webern only expressing anguish, I would argue that there is in fact a range of emotional expression in Webern if you look for it, but you have to listen to many different pieces. The earlier works are indeed, sometimes (but not always) rather tortured sounding. What is particular with him is the fact that he only occupies the register of the paroxysm, of the absolute identification of the subject with his or her emotional state. Thus, we have either absolute ecstasy, or absolute anguish, with little in between. The later works are remarkable, I think, for the extraordinary air of peacefulness and repose that flows out of them. Listen to the Variations for Orchestra, or the piano Variations. Of course, I can't teach you to appreciate the emotive qualities of Webern; on some level, it either speaks to you or it doesn't. Finally, the idea of the 'home' in the sonata form is manifest in Webern as well, but it sinks down to a very deep structural level that can perhaps be felt, but not always easily understood only by listening to the music. Again, it may take intensive listening to become sensitized to these phenomena, but it doesn't mean they aren't at play in the music. Best regards.
What books you got in your background?
Beto Moya That's a portion of my score library.
I'm sure this is obvious, probably even intentional, but if you took the name "Webern" out of this analysis, this video is almost indistinguishable from your analysis of Frownland.
I'm always surprised that nobody mentions that Webern was a convinced Nazi, while in much "greyer" cases like Furtwängler it is mentioned all the time. This doesn't change that he is one of the most significant composers of the 20. century. However , it is also part of who he was, there is a great deal of ideology also in his music.
That's not true. His letters show he was far from enthusiastic about the Nazi party. His biographers go into this subject at some depth (Moldenhauer, Galliari et al). The Nazis ruined Webern's livelihood. Although his son was a party member.
@@samuel_andreyev It is true that he was not part of the party establishment, however ideologically he was fully committed, and much more so than Furtwängler, and a fervent admirer of Hitler.
Interesting commentary, BUT, this composers name is Anton Webern NOT Anton von Webern as you call him in 1st second of vid. Hard to confuse him with (1786 - 1826).
I quite like his music, but just that lack of linear trajectory is main problem with Webern´s music for me. For me music must have drive and must go from point A to point B. Fortunately Webern was smart enought and know, that this kind of music music is bearable only for short period of time so his compositions is often very small.
I can understand that. It's clearly not for everyone. I wonder what you think about pre-baroque music? Because it, too, is more or less devoid of 'drive', being more focused on short movements and very localized resolutions of dissonances without much in the way of a strong directionality. Best regards.
The problen with Webern is that his music is so reduced that it does not give the average listener much to hang on to. If one goes far enough in that direction only sceintific analyses remains to unearth the subtlety and then such output, on average, becomes music for scholars. It's the age old problem of weighing originality against accesibility.
Ok. But who is the 'average listener'? I've bever met any such creature, only individuals with often surprisingly wide-ranging affinities.
@@samuel_andreyev I didn't talk about the average listener, now did I? I do however grant you I used the word "average". As per my ealier remark here about recognition: My definition of a broad enough acceptence would already be to touch a "mass" of people big enough to guarantee the composer a good income but also a basis for long term recognition. Talking of atonal tendencies: You would do me a very big favour by listening to my latest piece: The Griffon And The Bringer Of Fire ( www.brassee.com/electronicmusic.html#griffon ). I assure you it will not hurt (much). :-)
Is there a biography of him that you like? Please leave a note. Ty.
Eugene Sedita Yes. Hans and Rosaleen Moldenhauer wrote what is still the definitive biography in English. It's out of print but used copies are not hard to find.
Samuel Andreyev Thanks Samuel.
The American soldier who accidently shot Webern committed suicide because he could not live with what he had done.
Not exactly, he died of alcoholism in 1955.