Loved the party of CRTs gag and the pissed off German, lol. Anyway, commendable effort, my good sir. I've always wanted to know or at least get a close estimate of the TVL on my consumer sets, just because. Great video as always, and I really appreciate the effort.
This is a neat concept, and you were very thorough with your testing. However, TVL is more than just the pitch of the stripes/mask on the picture tube. The alternating black and white lines are an important aspect, because there are other factors that affect the TVL. Spot size, chassis bandwidth/frequency response, and convergence can all play a part in how much horizontal resolution can be resolved. This is more a measure of the number of phosphor stripes in a given area. While this is certainly an important bottleneck of TVL, it is not a measurement of TVL itself. Nonetheless, great video, with great visuals. The amount of effort put into this video is very clear!
@@MarcoRetro316 For sure! Finding stuff on these things is pretty tough. If you get stumped or need some info, don't hesitate to reach out! If I don't know the answer, I can probably put you in touch with someone who would!
Great video! You have so much knowledge and explain it so well so people who have no idea what's going on (like me) can follow along. Keep up the great work!
Just gave this a shot. I have a 32" JVC D-Series AC-32D201 from August 2000. At factory settings, I took a photo of my RGB modded Famicom running Super Mario Bros. I followed the instructions and got 39 TV Lines across the very top of the pipe. 36 x 12.5 = 450 right on the dot. So that means that this set has 450 TV Lines. It's the nicest CRT I own. And I got it totally for free from a guy who was going to throw it out!
@@MarcoRetro316 Here's some more results to add to your xl sheet: 19" Memorex MVT2199 from September 2002 31 phosphors. 31 x 12.5 and round to the nearest 50 This TV has 400 TV Lines 14" Sensormatic RM314 from June 2001 27 phosphors. 27 x 12.5 and then round to the nearest 50. This TV has 350 TV Lines 14" Apex GT1417DV from September 2003 23 phosphors. 23 x 12.5 and then round to the nearest 50. This TV has 300 TV Lines
On my BVM-20F1U advertised at 900 TVL I approximated 800 using your method. Then on a Compaq FS7555 PC CRT I got 84 doots to count and got 1050. Counting the dot pitch was a little more difficult than the standard phosphors from 15Khz sets. My Sony 32" KVFS got 42x12.5 so somewhere between 500-550. Lastly my PVM-1354Q got 48 so dead on 600.
Interestingly I measured 77 lines on my 20F1 to estimate the TVL at 962.5, rounding it down to 950. The other numbers look close to expected. Thanks for trying this out sharing your results!
I don't have an NES but I tried raspberry pi via scart, PS2 NES emulator, and projected nested emulator on SNES original hardware and all had similar counts. My PVM 1953MD read 58 pipe lines for a TVL of 725 vs 600 spec, and my consumer Sony KV-36S42 via S video read 40 pipe lines for a TVL of 500. Interesting!
Thanks for trying it out. It’ll only get you so close to the actual resolvable TVL count but still useful for a ball park figure on consumer sets, 500 sounds about right
Thanks for this! Was able to pretty accurately measure the TVL count on my panasonic BTM1950y with this after being told on reddit they were soft looking monitors 🙄 It counted out above the advertised tvl count of 750tvl
I like Panasonic and JVC’s quoting TVL with “>” so you could brace for the worse case scenario it’s *only* 750. Some of my friends have the JVC equivalent and they’re super sharp monitors and better blacks than Sony
@@MarcoRetro316 Yeah, Me and my buddy who I get my pvms from have compared several of these panasonic monitors I mentioned next to various sony pvm's and bvm's and we both had the opinion that they were some of the best looking displays for 240p games... I had a guy on reddit say that he had one and that they were low tvl and dull/blurry displays... Ive never heard that opinion before so suggested his may have had a high hour tube or other issues, that started a back and forth comment thread about them arguing our points then I remembered this video and wanted to check for myself. Although this method may not be completely accurate it should give a rough estimate and a basis for people to compare tubes easily at home and have a ballpark figure for tvl count. I still have 2 of these mentioned panasonic btm1950s along with a crap-ton of sony pvms and think that these panasonic/jvc pro monitors are often overlooked and always amazed by the image every time I turn them on. How he calls them blurry" baffles me... On a side note... I got rid of my crt-emudriver 15kHz pc setup a couple years back so that I could use the pc for my arcade cab build. Ive been thinking about another 15kHz pc setup or maybe a 240p downscaling option just to play around with running some newer pixel art based games on a 15kHz crt. The crt-emudriver setup worked good but was a pain to setup and since sold the amd r9 380x video card I had used for the setup so been following your downscaling series.... I have not tried any downscaling options out there at this point and wondered if you had a suggestion for something decently simple to setup with acceptable performance for just getting 240p out of some newer pc games? Keep up the good work! I appreciate the amount of work and edits in your vids! I know they are super time consuming. Are you using davinci studio or something else?
Green was a good choice because even on lower bandwidth signals like RF and composite it will be the cleanest with the least amount of horizontal smearing. Thats why you found very little discrepancy in your calculations across signal types up to RGB. I would guess that if someone calculated a number significantly lower than the advertised TVL, and their h width and focus was calibrared correctly, the bandwidth of the video amps must be quite poor. I have seen this illustrated by two TVs which share the same high resolution tube (matching part number) but have different TVL numbers advertised. I have seen as big as a 200 TVL discrepency just due to video amp bandwidth.
Hey Andy! In hindsight I overstated the correlation of phosphor line count with TVL’s as they aren’t one and the same, and the same tube can produce different TVL’s depending on the chassis design and like you said, bandwidth of the video amp among focus. I’ve long been learning from your stuff between your channel, interview on the CRP and the CRT database. It’s later bugged me not knowing your work at the time I put together my first video and referring to you as ‘someone who fixed their BVM jitter’. Anyway, thanks for tuning in!
@@MarcoRetro316 thank you for the kind words - I'm glad to have helped you with my efforts. I enjoy your videos, keep doing what you're doing! I wish I had the time and passion for video production.
You did the work for me on that one, lol! I have the exact same model, right here next to me. Love that thing, true 480p analog support, widescreen, it is a beautiful beast. 550 TVL, not bad at all!
@@MarcoRetro316only one correction (was surprised myself). TVL is counted in 3:3 aspect ratio, not 4:3. So 400 TVL monitor will have 400 distinct lines on 3/4 of the screen. While whole width will have 533 lines. A bit confusing metric, to put it mildly. If you have not missed this in your calculations than ratio works. If you have missed, than we should divide final number by 4 and multiple by 3 to get real TVL like if would be advertised, not total lines across whole screen.
Looks like I’ll need to revisit some sources as I’ve not heard of it measured in 3:3, just that the width must equal the visible height of the raster ie a perfect circle
@@MarcoRetro316 That is what I have meant by 3:3 square: since height is "3" in 4:3 aspect, it makes it 3:3 😂 So yes, seems everything is fine, cos no way my 21inch Trinitron is 170 TVL if it is wrong))
Actually I recounted and its 525(was slightly more overscan), also counted kx-27ps1 at 475, probably at an even 500 both. I have a hard time counting with composite signal. What is the alternative method with rgb?
I don't know if I did this right, I used xsnes on wii, super Mario world. I count 77 lines on my Sony HR36 which is 962.5 rounding down to 950. Its a super fine pitch display, but it was in widescreen so I think I need to make sure it's 4:3 to get the correct result, right?
I have a question. Does tv lines affect the picture sharpness from a console outputting an horizontal res of 320 on a tv with just 250 tv lines for example? or will a console outputting 640 horizontal res into a tv with 800 tv lines look sharper?
A very general answer: The more TVL to screen size ratio, the sharper the image and therefore will resolve the horizontal resolution up to a certain point. Both those scenarios will resolve the image just fine, obviously a display with 800 TVL would be miles sharper than anything at 250 TVL. 250 on a 9” PVM is somewhat sharp, but a 14” CRT would take a big hit in sharpness and you’d see vertical lines instead of prominent scanlines. 800 TVL on the other hand will look sharp at any realistic CRT size
@@MarcoRetro316 Thank you. That is interesting so there is a correlation beteween screen size and TVL, that is the bigger the screen size more TVL is needed to get a decent sharp picture. But my question is more related to the TVL and a console horizontal resolution, for example Capcom CPS games use an horizontal resolution of 384 and i have seen some games use a dither pattern in some graphics to simulate transparency. So my question is will the dithering pattern blend with a TVL of 300?, and will the dithering pattern be visible with a TVL of 400 or more?
@jsr734 I’m purely guessing but I’d agree with you that you’d have better dithering and blending with lower TVL, whereas higher TVL would bring out more horizontal detail
@@MarcoRetro316 Correct, i have always suspected that is the case. For example I play my Ps2 with component cables pluged to my lcd and i play Ratatouille i can see some dithering pattern in darker/shadow areas of the screen, but when i plug it to my Haier CRT 20" i cannot perceive any dithering as the CRT is incapable of resolving the dithering at the resolution the game is outputting, wich i think is 512 horizontaly.
Your method is unreliable as it depends heavily on Geometry calibrations of the TV like the Horizontal Size, Horizontal Bow, Phase and others. E.g.: if I stretch the HSIZE on my TV that pipe is going to be drawn with more lines. You need to first normalize the Geometry as best as possible on every TV you are measuring, THEN measure the pipe. Here's the (easier) method I use: set up 240p Test Suite's Grid pattern in a 320 horizontal resolution system (e.g., the PS1, Neo Geo), calibrate the Geometry as best as possible until all 20 squares are visible side to side and as straight as possible, take a macro shot with your phone of just one square and count the lines of the square (remember that they share one side with the next square, so count just one of the sides), then multiply by 15 to get the approximate TVL (if you multiply by 20 you'll get instead the total visible horizontal resolution, and we want TVLs). I just did this to my consumer Sony Wega KV-29FS140 (29 inches) and it gave me 570 TVL, so we can put it in the 550-600 TVL range. We can say that my TV (that I got for just $10) has as much TVLs as some of the most expensive PVMs out there.
Hey thanks for checking out the method. I did address that geometry will alter the result and I said that the image should be *appropriately* scanned, as geometry calibration is a whole other topic on its own. Thanks for explaining the grid method you’re using, what TVL estimation do you get on the KV-29FS140 by counting a portion of the grid? Our methods are essentially the same in principal, just with yours going into more detail about scaling the image prior. Around 550 does sound right for a set of that size. The number may sound like PVM territory if the TV were smaller, but at 29” it *must* have higher TVL to delineate horizontal resolution, otherwise there’d be coarse vertical stripes as you see on many smaller low end consumer sets. If it weren’t such a large set then I’d say it sounded unrealistically high. Either way, this is just an accessible way to get an estimation on consumer sets. Thanks again for the constructive comment
Yeah that TVL thing are just joke like Savon Pat explained all screens come from the same factory and from the same line, the only difference is that the ones with a more sharper image were used PVM and BVM. So they have already been tested at the factory before sold. TVL are guideline.
Guideline or not, Savon Pat has used TVL as an indication of a good picture, in a non-joking manner: "It’s a good 800-line tube. And the 20L5 is also a 800-line tube - or the 14L5 is an 800-line tube. So both of them can give you a really good picture." - Savon Pat, during interview with Bob from Retro RGB. I don't understand the TVL thing being mentioned as a joke or a gimmick by a few people quoting Savon Pat and others. You can clearly tell the difference between a high and a low and even medium TVL monitor next to each other, I have them right here, not to mention they can be counted pretty consistently. Please enlighten me on this, maybe you know something I don't. "Coming from the same factory/line" doesn't mean much, you can buy a $50 bottle of whiskey at the same distillery you could buy one for $1000.
@@crt_rex Joke or the catch is that all monitor are just same line they just handpicked better for PVM and BVM. It was very long time myth that they would come different manufactory line. I could offer the same analogy. You have 2 different wine that are made same company, method and same everything else but different year and still one is more valued than the other because quality it offer year when was made. Even if you do everything the same way there are always variables like a good vintage means that the weather was well balanced throughout the year. The vines received ideal amounts of rain and sun. Factory have line where tubes come out they tested them and then chose whether they fit a cheaper TV or PVM or even BVM.
@@Random.Walker. By "monitor are just the same" I'm assuming you mean the glass tube? Because yes, I mean, it's a glass tube, but the monitors are definitely not the same, you can tell by just carrying them, the weight on higher quality monitors tend to be substantially heavier, and my cheaper consumer CRTs are much lighter. It's like holding a cheap game controller without artificial weights inside and a very good quality one. But I'm thinking you meant the glass tube, and if so, then yes. But that they would pick the best out of the same assembly line is not really revelatory, that is done with many things like that, even produce such as eggs and potatoes are graded and separated on the line according to size or quality, and even color. From what I understand on what Savon Pat says, and what I would assume on the little knowledge I have is that all the high quality internal components that go into a top of the line monitor, in conjunction with the tube is what makes a high TVL monitor good. But yeah, as the quote above says, he did mention TVLs, it's right there, just saying.
I tested with a (27 JVC I ART) flat screen and got 36 lines so 450 line count total then I tested my (32 inch JVC D- Series) curved glass and got the same number 36 ehhhh looks like JVC was BS lying about 700 line count 😅
Thanks for trying it out! 450 is reasonable for a consumer 27”, though is a tad low for a 32” set. I’d assume the 32” may have a vertical ‘screen door’ appearance up close rather than juicy scanlines if the TVL to screen size ratio is that low.
Thanks for bearing with me while I tried this out. The SNES version of Super Mario All Stars doesn’t draw the pipe exactly the same and there is no top row, just uniform green lines. If I count those with the SNES on my consumer Grundig CRT there were 33 green lines, whilst 36 on the NES. Now this will muddy things even more but just going off this one user case, I guess you could multiply the SNES pipe lines by 13.6, seeing the SNES version drew the pipe with about 9% fewer lines
Loved the party of CRTs gag and the pissed off German, lol. Anyway, commendable effort, my good sir. I've always wanted to know or at least get a close estimate of the TVL on my consumer sets, just because. Great video as always, and I really appreciate the effort.
Thanks Rex :) at the very least it should give a close estimate
This is a neat concept, and you were very thorough with your testing. However, TVL is more than just the pitch of the stripes/mask on the picture tube. The alternating black and white lines are an important aspect, because there are other factors that affect the TVL. Spot size, chassis bandwidth/frequency response, and convergence can all play a part in how much horizontal resolution can be resolved. This is more a measure of the number of phosphor stripes in a given area. While this is certainly an important bottleneck of TVL, it is not a measurement of TVL itself.
Nonetheless, great video, with great visuals. The amount of effort put into this video is very clear!
Thanks so much for elaborating, the feedback is very much appreciated and welcomed! It was a labour of love and I’m still learning on this journey
@@MarcoRetro316 For sure! Finding stuff on these things is pretty tough. If you get stumped or need some info, don't hesitate to reach out! If I don't know the answer, I can probably put you in touch with someone who would!
@ShankMods That’s a very humble offer that I’ll gladly take you up on when I’m in a pickle. Thanks!
Great video! You have so much knowledge and explain it so well so people who have no idea what's going on (like me) can follow along. Keep up the great work!
Thank you kindly!
You should have way more subs -- these videos are very well done!
Thanks! It was a lot of fun making this video
appreciate the in depth testing of these amazing CRTs!
Ah your’re very welcome!
Just gave this a shot. I have a 32" JVC D-Series AC-32D201 from August 2000. At factory settings, I took a photo of my RGB modded Famicom running Super Mario Bros. I followed the instructions and got 39 TV Lines across the very top of the pipe.
36 x 12.5 = 450 right on the dot.
So that means that this set has 450 TV Lines. It's the nicest CRT I own. And I got it totally for free from a guy who was going to throw it out!
Nice one! Thanks for giving it a shot
@@MarcoRetro316 Here's some more results to add to your xl sheet:
19" Memorex MVT2199 from September 2002 31 phosphors.
31 x 12.5 and round to the nearest 50
This TV has 400 TV Lines
14" Sensormatic RM314 from June 2001 27 phosphors.
27 x 12.5 and then round to the nearest 50.
This TV has 350 TV Lines
14" Apex GT1417DV from September 2003 23 phosphors.
23 x 12.5 and then round to the nearest 50.
This TV has 300 TV Lines
Legend!
Great video! I hope this gets more views!
Thanks!
On my BVM-20F1U advertised at 900 TVL I approximated 800 using your method. Then on a Compaq FS7555 PC CRT I got 84 doots to count and got 1050. Counting the dot pitch was a little more difficult than the standard phosphors from 15Khz sets. My Sony 32" KVFS got 42x12.5 so somewhere between 500-550. Lastly my PVM-1354Q got 48 so dead on 600.
Interestingly I measured 77 lines on my 20F1 to estimate the TVL at 962.5, rounding it down to 950. The other numbers look close to expected. Thanks for trying this out sharing your results!
Great content! Thank you. Your channel is excellent. Congratulations.
Thank you and glad you enjoyed it!
I listened carefully to the background music and remembered that first is "Madou Monogatari I - Main BGM (Floors 1-10) (Genesis_MD)". Very catchy.
Very close but impressive nonetheless. The intro is Memories from Puyo Puyo Genesis/MD. It sounds almost the same as Floors though
@@MarcoRetro316 Same game series more or less like spinoff.
I don't have an NES but I tried raspberry pi via scart, PS2 NES emulator, and projected nested emulator on SNES original hardware and all had similar counts. My PVM 1953MD read 58 pipe lines for a TVL of 725 vs 600 spec, and my consumer Sony KV-36S42 via S video read 40 pipe lines for a TVL of 500. Interesting!
Thanks for trying it out. It’ll only get you so close to the actual resolvable TVL count but still useful for a ball park figure on consumer sets, 500 sounds about right
Incredible content.
Thanks for this! Was able to pretty accurately measure the TVL count on my panasonic BTM1950y with this after being told on reddit they were soft looking monitors 🙄
It counted out above the advertised tvl count of 750tvl
I like Panasonic and JVC’s quoting TVL with “>” so you could brace for the worse case scenario it’s *only* 750. Some of my friends have the JVC equivalent and they’re super sharp monitors and better blacks than Sony
@@MarcoRetro316 Yeah, Me and my buddy who I get my pvms from have compared several of these panasonic monitors I mentioned next to various sony pvm's and bvm's and we both had the opinion that they were some of the best looking displays for 240p games... I had a guy on reddit say that he had one and that they were low tvl and dull/blurry displays... Ive never heard that opinion before so suggested his may have had a high hour tube or other issues, that started a back and forth comment thread about them arguing our points then I remembered this video and wanted to check for myself. Although this method may not be completely accurate it should give a rough estimate and a basis for people to compare tubes easily at home and have a ballpark figure for tvl count. I still have 2 of these mentioned panasonic btm1950s along with a crap-ton of sony pvms and think that these panasonic/jvc pro monitors are often overlooked and always amazed by the image every time I turn them on. How he calls them blurry" baffles me...
On a side note... I got rid of my crt-emudriver 15kHz pc setup a couple years back so that I could use the pc for my arcade cab build. Ive been thinking about another 15kHz pc setup or maybe a 240p downscaling option just to play around with running some newer pixel art based games on a 15kHz crt. The crt-emudriver setup worked good but was a pain to setup and since sold the amd r9 380x video card I had used for the setup so been following your downscaling series.... I have not tried any downscaling options out there at this point and wondered if you had a suggestion for something decently simple to setup with acceptable performance for just getting 240p out of some newer pc games?
Keep up the good work! I appreciate the amount of work and edits in your vids! I know they are super time consuming. Are you using davinci studio or something else?
Great Video!
Glad you enjoyed it :)
Giving your video a like because you too have an A/V Famicom with a Famicom N8.
My brother from another Japanese mother 🤝
cool stuff dude! just tested my 28 inch philips 28pt4456, counted 41 pipe lines so 512.5 or 500tvl with your method
Thanks! That sounds like a fair number for a 28” consumer tube
Green was a good choice because even on lower bandwidth signals like RF and composite it will be the cleanest with the least amount of horizontal smearing. Thats why you found very little discrepancy in your calculations across signal types up to RGB.
I would guess that if someone calculated a number significantly lower than the advertised TVL, and their h width and focus was calibrared correctly, the bandwidth of the video amps must be quite poor.
I have seen this illustrated by two TVs which share the same high resolution tube (matching part number) but have different TVL numbers advertised. I have seen as big as a 200 TVL discrepency just due to video amp bandwidth.
Hey Andy! In hindsight I overstated the correlation of phosphor line count with TVL’s as they aren’t one and the same, and the same tube can produce different TVL’s depending on the chassis design and like you said, bandwidth of the video amp among focus.
I’ve long been learning from your stuff between your channel, interview on the CRP and the CRT database. It’s later bugged me not knowing your work at the time I put together my first video and referring to you as ‘someone who fixed their BVM jitter’. Anyway, thanks for tuning in!
@@MarcoRetro316 thank you for the kind words - I'm glad to have helped you with my efforts. I enjoy your videos, keep doing what you're doing! I wish I had the time and passion for video production.
PVM 2950 has 500 - 525 TVLINE
I just tried it with my Thomson 33MS24E (33'). 500TVL exactly.
Nice!
Excellent ass video
Nice video, apparently my 21" $5 Trinitron has 350 TV lines
In the name of science!
Sony kv29fx30 41 dots. About 510 lines
Sounds correct for a consumer set of that size
Panasonic TX-36PD50, 550 tvl 👍🏻
You did the work for me on that one, lol! I have the exact same model, right here next to me. Love that thing, true 480p analog support, widescreen, it is a beautiful beast. 550 TVL, not bad at all!
You are real MVP
A high honour indeed. Thank you!
@@MarcoRetro316only one correction (was surprised myself). TVL is counted in 3:3 aspect ratio, not 4:3. So 400 TVL monitor will have 400 distinct lines on 3/4 of the screen. While whole width will have 533 lines. A bit confusing metric, to put it mildly. If you have not missed this in your calculations than ratio works. If you have missed, than we should divide final number by 4 and multiple by 3 to get real TVL like if would be advertised, not total lines across whole screen.
Looks like I’ll need to revisit some sources as I’ve not heard of it measured in 3:3, just that the width must equal the visible height of the raster ie a perfect circle
@@MarcoRetro316 That is what I have meant by 3:3 square: since height is "3" in 4:3 aspect, it makes it 3:3 😂 So yes, seems everything is fine, cos no way my 21inch Trinitron is 170 TVL if it is wrong))
@@kuroikensai202 oof 170 TVL 🤮 haha I’d be guessing around 350
Sony PVM-2730qm: 587-600 TVL, tested with NES.
Thanks, very close to the advertised 600.
Actually I recounted and its 525(was slightly more overscan), also counted kx-27ps1 at 475, probably at an even 500 both. I have a hard time counting with composite signal. What is the alternative method with rgb?
@@SamsungS-or1qf composite will have some colour bleed but it should be similar, if not the same to RGB
5:38 Nintendo game on Atari Monitor is a pretty blursed thing to see XD
On my Sony KV310 32” I got 525 tv lines using your method
Thanks for giving it a try. It’s a ball-park figure but it’ll get close enough to the actual number
I don't know if I did this right, I used xsnes on wii, super Mario world.
I count 77 lines on my Sony HR36 which is 962.5 rounding down to 950.
Its a super fine pitch display, but it was in widescreen so I think I need to make sure it's 4:3 to get the correct result, right?
Yes you’d need to have the video in 4:3 to not stretch the pipe out
I have a question. Does tv lines affect the picture sharpness from a console outputting an horizontal res of 320 on a tv with just 250 tv lines for example? or will a console outputting 640 horizontal res into a tv with 800 tv lines look sharper?
A very general answer: The more TVL to screen size ratio, the sharper the image and therefore will resolve the horizontal resolution up to a certain point. Both those scenarios will resolve the image just fine, obviously a display with 800 TVL would be miles sharper than anything at 250 TVL. 250 on a 9” PVM is somewhat sharp, but a 14” CRT would take a big hit in sharpness and you’d see vertical lines instead of prominent scanlines. 800 TVL on the other hand will look sharp at any realistic CRT size
@@MarcoRetro316 Thank you. That is interesting so there is a correlation beteween screen size and TVL, that is the bigger the screen size more TVL is needed to get a decent sharp picture. But my question is more related to the TVL and a console horizontal resolution, for example Capcom CPS games use an horizontal resolution of 384 and i have seen some games use a dither pattern in some graphics to simulate transparency. So my question is will the dithering pattern blend with a TVL of 300?, and will the dithering pattern be visible with a TVL of 400 or more?
@jsr734 I’m purely guessing but I’d agree with you that you’d have better dithering and blending with lower TVL, whereas higher TVL would bring out more horizontal detail
@@MarcoRetro316 Correct, i have always suspected that is the case. For example I play my Ps2 with component cables pluged to my lcd and i play Ratatouille i can see some dithering pattern in darker/shadow areas of the screen, but when i plug it to my Haier CRT 20" i cannot perceive any dithering as the CRT is incapable of resolving the dithering at the resolution the game is outputting, wich i think is 512 horizontaly.
Your method is unreliable as it depends heavily on Geometry calibrations of the TV like the Horizontal Size, Horizontal Bow, Phase and others. E.g.: if I stretch the HSIZE on my TV that pipe is going to be drawn with more lines. You need to first normalize the Geometry as best as possible on every TV you are measuring, THEN measure the pipe. Here's the (easier) method I use: set up 240p Test Suite's Grid pattern in a 320 horizontal resolution system (e.g., the PS1, Neo Geo), calibrate the Geometry as best as possible until all 20 squares are visible side to side and as straight as possible, take a macro shot with your phone of just one square and count the lines of the square (remember that they share one side with the next square, so count just one of the sides), then multiply by 15 to get the approximate TVL (if you multiply by 20 you'll get instead the total visible horizontal resolution, and we want TVLs).
I just did this to my consumer Sony Wega KV-29FS140 (29 inches) and it gave me 570 TVL, so we can put it in the 550-600 TVL range. We can say that my TV (that I got for just $10) has as much TVLs as some of the most expensive PVMs out there.
Hey thanks for checking out the method. I did address that geometry will alter the result and I said that the image should be *appropriately* scanned, as geometry calibration is a whole other topic on its own. Thanks for explaining the grid method you’re using, what TVL estimation do you get on the KV-29FS140 by counting a portion of the grid? Our methods are essentially the same in principal, just with yours going into more detail about scaling the image prior. Around 550 does sound right for a set of that size. The number may sound like PVM territory if the TV were smaller, but at 29” it *must* have higher TVL to delineate horizontal resolution, otherwise there’d be coarse vertical stripes as you see on many smaller low end consumer sets. If it weren’t such a large set then I’d say it sounded unrealistically high. Either way, this is just an accessible way to get an estimation on consumer sets. Thanks again for the constructive comment
Yeah that TVL thing are just joke like Savon Pat explained all screens come from the same factory and from the same line, the only difference is that the ones with a more sharper image were used PVM and BVM. So they have already been tested at the factory before sold. TVL are guideline.
Guideline or not, Savon Pat has used TVL as an indication of a good picture, in a non-joking manner:
"It’s a good 800-line tube. And the 20L5 is also a 800-line tube - or the 14L5 is an 800-line tube. So both of them can give you a really good picture."
- Savon Pat, during interview with Bob from Retro RGB.
I don't understand the TVL thing being mentioned as a joke or a gimmick by a few people quoting Savon Pat and others. You can clearly tell the difference between a high and a low and even medium TVL monitor next to each other, I have them right here, not to mention they can be counted pretty consistently.
Please enlighten me on this, maybe you know something I don't. "Coming from the same factory/line" doesn't mean much, you can buy a $50 bottle of whiskey at the same distillery you could buy one for $1000.
@@crt_rex Joke or the catch is that all monitor are just same line they just handpicked better for PVM and BVM. It was very long time myth that they would come different manufactory line.
I could offer the same analogy. You have 2 different wine that are made same company, method and same everything else but different year and still one is more valued than the other because quality it offer year when was made.
Even if you do everything the same way there are always variables like a good vintage means that the weather was well balanced throughout the year. The vines received ideal amounts of rain and sun.
Factory have line where tubes come out they tested them and then chose whether they fit a cheaper TV or PVM or even BVM.
@@Random.Walker. By "monitor are just the same" I'm assuming you mean the glass tube? Because yes, I mean, it's a glass tube, but the monitors are definitely not the same, you can tell by just carrying them, the weight on higher quality monitors tend to be substantially heavier, and my cheaper consumer CRTs are much lighter. It's like holding a cheap game controller without artificial weights inside and a very good quality one.
But I'm thinking you meant the glass tube, and if so, then yes. But that they would pick the best out of the same assembly line is not really revelatory, that is done with many things like that, even produce such as eggs and potatoes are graded and separated on the line according to size or quality, and even color.
From what I understand on what Savon Pat says, and what I would assume on the little knowledge I have is that all the high quality internal components that go into a top of the line monitor, in conjunction with the tube is what makes a high TVL monitor good. But yeah, as the quote above says, he did mention TVLs, it's right there, just saying.
I tested with a (27 JVC I ART) flat screen and got 36 lines so 450 line count total then I tested my (32 inch JVC D- Series) curved glass and got the same number 36 ehhhh looks like JVC was BS lying about 700 line count 😅
Thanks for trying it out! 450 is reasonable for a consumer 27”, though is a tad low for a 32” set. I’d assume the 32” may have a vertical ‘screen door’ appearance up close rather than juicy scanlines if the TVL to screen size ratio is that low.
What the best way to play Mario bros on SNES?
Not for estimating TVL, but to simply play Mario Bros on the SNES, Super Mario All Stars
@@MarcoRetro316 thanks but the question was for the estimating tvl.
Will nes emulator on everdrive x7 n64
Or even nes emulator on ps1 work fine?
@haloharry97 of those methods, I did try the PS1’s NES emulator and it was equivalent in drawing the pipe as original hardware
@@MarcoRetro316 idk if i did it correct but my 32 inch JVC got 450 lines
@@haloharry97 it sounds on the lower side for a 32”
Would this work with snes super mario all stars version?
I personally haven’t tried it but I’ll have a look when I get a chance to see if they both draw the pipe in the same manor
@@MarcoRetro316 thank you, I appreciate it.
Thanks for bearing with me while I tried this out. The SNES version of Super Mario All Stars doesn’t draw the pipe exactly the same and there is no top row, just uniform green lines. If I count those with the SNES on my consumer Grundig CRT there were 33 green lines, whilst 36 on the NES. Now this will muddy things even more but just going off this one user case, I guess you could multiply the SNES pipe lines by 13.6, seeing the SNES version drew the pipe with about 9% fewer lines
@@MarcoRetro316 you're the man. Most people wouldn't have gone through the trouble. Thank you