Why GT Goku vs Goku Black Isn't Close!
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Super Saiyan 4 Goku vs Dragon Ball Super has been a long ongoing debate in the Dragon Ball community, so I thought I'd give my personal thoughts on the matchup of two alternate Goku's: GT Goku and Goku Black. Is GT Underrated or Overrated strength wise? Does SSJ4 easily beat Goku Black? Or Goku Black solo the verse? Lets find out!
#dragonball #dragonballz #dragonballGT #dragonballsuper #goku #powerscaling
“This is getting out of hand, now there are two monkeys!” -Lord Freezer
Goku Black: What a Siner"
@@JayJohnson-ls3eqCould’ve at least spelt sinner correctly 💀💀
@@HammerDownFellasdon’t hate on his spelling, hate on the somehow failed use of quotation marks 💀
I agree with everything, but Rose isn't his version of SSJ, it's his version of SSB/SSGSS. In the manga, we see Black use SSJ!
That's manga only.
@@Top_E_OfficialYeah if Rosé was actually just a variant Blue, show Black would be beyond overpowered cuz even in Base he was fucking up Blue Vegeta at one point.
In the anime it’s his version of ssj and in the manga it’s his version of ssb. It’s kind of weird.
And it kind of makes sense. If base goku black was able to somewhat keep up with ssb, there is no way that goku and vegeta would’ve been able to compete against goku black with a ssb multiplier if that makes sense. Also in dragon ball heroes he can use ssr2 and 3, so I doubt it’s his version of ssb because I guarantee you that dragon
Ball heroes would have made ssb2 and 3 if they could.
EXCELLENT WORK. LONK'S TAKES DRAGON BALL SUPER VS DRAGON BALL GT ISN'T CLOSE
No matter which continuity you look at it's equivalent to his ssb. As ssb is just god ki infused ssj. Goku black naturally has god ki and mentions that when using rose. He literally just has to turn off the god ki during the transformation for it to be ssj.
0:02 “you got kid goku” proceeds to show Goten
Whoosh
@@lonkstakes ima touch you
You're the stupid Goku
@@lonkstakes🤡
Whoosh
Super Saiyan 4 is the dopest design ever so he washes Goku Black 🗣️🗣️🗣️ #NoBias
DISCLAIMER
for the people who can't take a joke. THIS COMMENT IS A JOKE. Thanks for your time.
GRR NOWI I AM SO OFFENDED DYPU ARE SO WRONG GOKU BLAKC STOMPS SUPER SIAYAN 4 YOU ARE SULER OMEGA BIAS MR YPU SUCK!!!!!!!!
This is how I think but unironically
@@rblxcaviarbread990 yeah, definitely a joke 🌚...
@@aviemoreno9721 we need to speak our truth brudda, super saiyan 4 agenda will never die‼
Not the ukog 💀
The gt fanboys will somehow say Gogeta ss4 is even stronger than Beerus cuz he’s so cool
Every day
monkeygeta is nothing without games
I think it’s because people who say that likely grew up with the budokai or tenkaichi games and thought that unleashing the Big Bang Kamehameha was the coolest thing they could do
Well, he is cool
I think we need to be honest, do you really think Beerus can move so fast omega couldn’t see him? Only SSJ4 Gogeta can bro trust 🤡
Goku Black: We can go feat for feat
Ssj 4 Goku: F*ck that we can go fan for fan
Ssj4 Goku : Ya can only go casual to casual brother feats themselves don't go in ur favour.
Fr though GT Goku could go feat for feat with this black ass Goku
@@Neeyawbro?? Please word that better 😭
@@Neeyawbro WHAT
Fr GT Goku even after the 100 years timeskip and even SSj4 Gogeta is only carried by fans alone. The fans glaze them so much but in terms of actual feats Goku Black slams
Shhh we do not speak of the movie that shall
Not be named
I only just recently started watching shameless and was trying to figure out why I hated the “Steve” character so much without an actual reason. I can’t believe I had erased that film from my mind and the feelings remained. Weird
You can call Voldemort by its name and its totally fine. But NEVER talk about the other "thing" 😂
This video should have honestly been super saiyan 4 gogeta , versus goku, black
Gogeta would one tap him tho.
@@kuru-yami9416how
@@kuru-yami9416i mean tbh idk but unless he is Atleast above multiversal then he loses (since BOG Goku is easily universal and a Goku 100x or more Stronger fought black in a Stronger form)
@@Stopscrolling.P he is multiversal. BASE kid goku hasa feat above Ui Omen goku and its not even end of gt. He one shots a null dimension, again, in BASE, and nerfed too from being kid form. So power that by ssj4 sub fusion-level multiplier and mulltiply THAT again by fusion multiplier itself. Yeah, he will destroy goku black. Goku black needs to fuse with zamasu to win this. And thats not even considering change-state goku or 100 year skip goku in the equation. Super is broken, no doubt about that, but so is Gt and it always has been.
Ps: this is also ignoring the extra power gains from the time gap between that feat and end of shadow dragon saga.
@kuru-yami9416 all to most of the feats in GT are head Canon Goku destroys the Sugoro realm, an entire dimension that's similar to a hyperbolic time chamber, with a single Kamehameha. Vegeta in super Destroyed the hyperbolic time chamber in base form as well that's similar to sugoro realm. And any power gains in the gaps as you state are head Canon cause they can't be proven.
7:00 it isnt just his NORMAL Super saiyan. Because Zamasu has Devine Ki its His own version it SSJB. you literally show SSJ Black from the manga in the background at some point wtf 😂
It’s not its own version of ssjb it’s literally just his version of ssj in hero’s he can go rose 2 and 3. Him having divine ki in the form doesn’t mean it’s ssjb
@@mauricejohnson2351 In the manga Goku Black is able to use regular ssj.
@@fidelgames ik
Manga and anime are two separate continuities. In the manga, it is stated that Rosè is similar to Blue by Zamasu. However for the anime, it is stated by outside sources that Rosè is a twisted version of Super Saiyan.
So in the anime, Rosè is Super Saiyan, and in the manga Rosè is Blue.
Manga and anime are different, in the manga ssjr is treated as another version of ssjb (mind you ssjb is also just a version of ssj) while in the anime ssjr is treated as another version of regular ssj, it makes total sense this way because in no way goku black can use a version of ssjb eithout being able to use regular ssj ._. @fidelgames
The GT vs super debate has been going on for nearly a decade and no amount of up scaling on the GT side has evened the playing field. How do people still think the GT characters stand a chance?
That's because as a reminder, Super fanboys don't really know the scaling of GT nor do they know effectively all the guides and what they say
GT is in the toeiverse. That’s really how he wins, just that.
How do u still glaze dbs so much ? The hype sunk in pipe down brother . Sugoroku space feat solos
@@ChcksterSugoroku space feat is how he wins , other things or not doesn't matter
@@humanman9920The dimension that is compared to the HTC in guides? yeah great feat GT has
If SSJR Goku Black beats SSJ4 Goku, then imagine comparing SSJ4 Goku to UI Omen Goku in the TOP
As much as I love SS4, and SS4 Gogeta even more, its pretty obvious they’d get destroyed by most characters in DBS, let alone Goku Black.
People tend to forgot that in Dragon ball, what's new is always the strongest... Heck Dragon Ball super reached Omega shenron levels of powers and feats at the very first arc when he fought beerus
And Saiyan saga Vegeta already reached the level of power characters from ToP had , as Frieza threatened GoD Toppo with a planetary attack 😂
@@humanman9920 threaten toppo? The attack that toppo deleted using a finger nail worth of hakai?
Yeah and let's also ignore that freeza in Top is stronger than namek saga freeza, Can't believe I even have to say that, shows how delusional gt fans really is LMAO
Yeah facts
@@lelouchvibritannia1662he had to weaken to not kill someone tho
@@lelouchvibritannia1662 " Frieza in Top is stronger than Namek " no he's not according to ur own logic . So where's ur reason about why Frieza even thinks a planetary attack has a chance against Toppo ? I only see whining about why it should be false lmao . And ur poor little Frieza is actually trying there , while Omega shenron did his thing by just standing there using the weakest dragon's attack . Sugoroku space scaling simply debunks this delusional cap dbs glazers claim for Omega , after the fact that there is no indication of that being anywhere near his strongest attack but instead the opposite , when characters in db have actually had strongest attack just stated to have lower levels of power than they actually have .
So mastered ssj Goku is capped at planetary for his kamehameha only being stated capable of that much, and that makes weaker characters than him below planetary ? That's what u're saying . Cope
8:47 I have never seen a GT fan mention this.
Yea same here.
I've never seen ANYONE make that argument
@@user-wi9se5ll3j seventh moon on comicvine
Yeah nobody has said that
It kind of makes sense though.
Super says a couple of times that fusion is NOT a multiplication of the two parts, but rather the sum of them and THEN multiply said sum, in which case, God Goku couldn't be stronger than Super Vegito.
Once again, it's a case of Super being inconsistent as hell, making both sides arguable, and the reason why it's pointless trying to power scale its characters.
As a certified GT glazer, come on man... throw me a bone... please...
actually throw me the whole skeleton...
Gogeta is still pretty busted
uhh your gogeta is nice
Bro.. if that's not sarcasm , at least watch the series in sub , this video is cap times 100 . Ignoring info to downplaying just for the sake of downplaying with the logic " oh come on it just means what i say it does with no basis whatsoever and sometimes i'm gonna be *super nice* by admitting a fraction of the facts " , this has it all 😂
And i mean , wouldn't expect any less from the person who really tried to push dbz Vegito against GT Ssj4 once ain't no way 💀
@bigpoggers6507 I'll throw you more than a bone. I'll throw you a fact. Super baby threw a revenge deathball at gt goku, and Kibito Kai saved him with Kai kai but then dropped him. The death ball he threw warped the fabric and space time of the infinite realm between dimensions it violently shook it to the point Kibito Kai dropped Goku it even changed the color of how it looked and it caught kibito kai using kai kai which can instantly take hom to places like Zeno's palace instantly which is outside the universe. This feat from Super Baby is relative or slightly above ui sign goku shaking the null realm, and this is before baby reached his strongest form.
The room of spirit and time is never stated to be devoid of time, it just warps time. It's also never stated to be devoid of space, is mentioned to be infinite in size in a few guides though. Comparing it to the gt feat doesn't work.
It was also stated to be about the size of earth . Sugoroku space feat never had a quantifiable mention like the outright false claim made in this video to spread misinformation , instead after " between space and time where nobody from outside can help " and simply being above the reach of kais and their magic crystal ball as a whole , it was only supported into actually meaning infinite with " cheaters can wander here forever " and not just " oh it's just between space and time but that doesn't really mean anything just a magical little thing " claimed by this video .
Destroying the Sugoroku Space isn't even an impressive feat when you realize that characters as far back as the Buu saga have been capable of destroying individual 3D realms with their sheer power alone. Buu was going to destroy the Grand Kai's planet which was nearly universal in size, Goku has shook and even warped the afterlife when turning into a ssj3 multiple times, Gogeta in fusion reborn just from being created warped the entirety of hell, Buuhan's screaming was going to tear apart the entire universe 7 macrocosm, ect. GT Goku destroying a dimension in base means nothing because multiple characters have already done feats similar to this.
iirc the same guide said both HTC and Sugoroku space are without space and time so yeah GT fans cant stop hyping up stuff that dbd characters would do by flexing their muscles
@@JoaoVitor-ur8fk which guide is that? I haven't seen a statement like that for the hyperbolic time chamber even after looking for quite a while?
Yeah also the subspace is a place between dimensions and it holds the room of spirit of time it its self is devoid of the concepts of space and time unlike the room of spirit of time which does have space and time 2 completely different realms
Base Goku Black beats on GT Goku letting him get countless zenkais till he gets bored.
Farming GT goku for exp is crazy lmao
@@lonkstakes The fact that Hyorinjutsu's version of Black basically did just that kinda shenanigannery is what makes me love that version so much
Idiot 😭😭
That's not true at all
Gt goku bullys tf outta black.
I completely forgot that Goku Black tanks Blue Vegeta's barrage and counters him with ease.
This is why I think the manga adding the middle step of him going Super Saiyan is better, because it'd be easier to swallow that SSJ4 GT Goku could beat Black while Black is in base, but once he starts transforming, GT Goku is cooked.
As someone so incredibly sick and tired of the endless GT Glazing, this makes me feel very, VERY happy
2:45 He does actually via the supposedly limit breaker thing in which he absorbs the power from gohan,trunks,Goten and pan then later Majuub.
A shoddy argument could be made that he is using SSJ3 + Great Ape, which explains the electric sparks, something that B-Vegeta lacked when he transformed into Golden Great Ape. This would be a 4000x multiplier and sufficient to bridge that gap that B-Vegeta has made.
This dosent really change anything though.
I doubt it because if he was truly utilizing the power of SSJ3 the power multiplier from him transforming into a Great Ape and absorbing that power into SSJ4 would be absolutely INSANE and would likely be way too much for Baby Vegeta to handle even as a Great Ape unless you believe the guide statements that say Super Baby 2 is actually Baby's form of SSJ3
Now tell them how kale solos dbgt
For anybody wondering, as stated by the Manga:
Oozaru: 10x base
SSj Multiplier: x50 base
SSj2 Multiplier: x2 of SSj (x100)
SSj3 Multiplier: x4 of SSj2 (x400)
SSG Multiplier: Unknown
SSGSS Multiplier: x50 of SSG
So if we are using logic
Oozaru (x10) x SSj (x50) = Super Oozaru (x500)
and considering the ssj2 and ssj3 multipliers are doubling, i'd say SSj4 ≈ (x500)(x8) = x4000
So, again, using logic
SSG is stronger than SSj3 (x400)
which means SSG = ~(x401)
with the SSj multiplier [SSB] (x50)
401 x 50 = x20,050
So in conclusion:
SSj4 = x4000
SSB = ~x20000
And base Goku Black ≈ SSj2 Goku
this would mean base Goku Black is ~x100 stronger than base goku
so Goku Black is sitting at roughly ~x2,000,000 at rose as compared to Base Goku
while Blue Goku is sitting at ~x20,000 as compared to Base Goku.
How strong GT Goku's base is, is up for debate considering GT is speculated to be 10 years from the end of Z. So GT Goku would need to be ~x501 stronger than DBS Goku to even be considered equal to Goku Black
Do you forget goku black berserk boost. After he use berserk he knocked out ssb vegeta. Then base goku black base not equal to ssj2 goku
Well, if we are really being fair here, Super Baby's deathball warped the fabric of space time in between dimensions, which is infinite. It was so devastating that it affected Kibito Kai's kai kai technique, which was shown by dbs to be instant.The death ball warped the color of it and was violently shaking to the point that Kibito Kai dropped Goku this feat is on the same level if not slightly better than UI Sign Goku but it doesn't really matter. Ss3 Goku in wrath of the dragon shook Heaven and hell which both are as big as the mortal universe not to mention the grand kai's planet as well which is arguably a better feat than ssg goku and beerus possibly destroying the mortal universe but it doesn't truly matter it's relative. GT Goku is a lot stronger than many think, try actually researching GT before making wrong assumptions.
Wah wah
@YaBoiMoi2750 For me, it's 2 in the morning, and the best thing you could come up with is "Wah wah" you've shown your intelligence, no need to have a conversation with you.
@@Saiyangod41205 get a job you’re up at 2 in the morning replying to yt comments
@@YaBoiMoi2750 You've shown your intelligence again. You are quite literally doing the same. 💀
@@Saiyangod41205Sugoroku space scale = " Between space and time where nobody from outside can help "
Outside kaioushin's reach completely and they can't even see in it
Capable of making one " wander forever " confirming its actual infinite instead of just " ooh just a little magical thing between space and time " this video tries to claim
And the video gets debunked
He's gonna at LEAST need Super Saiyan 5...
Well now that I think Toyotarou is officially in charge of Dragon ball there might actually be a chance of seeing he’s AF manga being finished maybe, would love to see it especially animated to
Lonk in the super 17 arc hell fighter 17 and 17 powering up caused hell and the living realm to collide and
super 17 is 50 times stronger than regular 17 and super sayin goku should scale to super 17 with ssj4
@@Lime-green-death-beam So they did a worse version of what buuhan did by himself?
@@lonkstakes this Is like asking why Kefla says "I can destroy a universe" despite Kale and Caulifla scaled way beyond Bog Goku
Gt goku is capable of handling goku black especially if you give him his 100 years post gt
He was already doing feats 1/5th the strength of God goku as a ssj3 in the janemba movie with all the multipliers he should be able to handle super goku black
I was hoping you would talk about the power ups ssj4 recieves as well as the other abilities it displayed that other forms dont have. Not even a mention of Elder Kais statement where he describes it like the ultimate form, kinda dissapointed that stuff was skimmed past.
well for one he did talk about ssj4's power up, and 2 elder kai saying ssj4 is like the ultimate form...Doesnt really matter??????
@@rblxcaviarbread990it does actually, the multiplier changes greatly from that. You would need to factor the base ssj4 multiplier plus the multiplier of the added potential. Thats because if ssj4 functioms the same way as elder kai describes the ultimate form then it should have that added function. We see in super that the ultimate forms multiplier isnt stagnant, it grows as the user does so it changes everything.
@@rblxcaviarbread990also he didnt, he listed a multiplier for baby saga. No mention for super full power or ultra full power was made nor were its other abilities mentioned. This was more of a baby saga ssj4 then shadow dragon.
Also, the fusion multiplier is exponential. Its not a A x B = its more of a A + B to the X power/degree =
@@CrucialMutual None of that really matters if he just gets one shot by Goku Black in base.
Just watched electrons video on black and bro the dragonball verse is way more op than we think
I feel like the only real argument that could be made, is off the assumption (a faulty assumption, but thats irrelevant to this point.), that Super is still canon to the GT timeline. Beyond that, you have to stretch pretty hard to get GT's power scaling to reach that of Super.
I love the Ssj4 transformation and wish it could somhow be added to Super.
It would be amazing to see a Ssj4 with God Ki and Kaio Ken stacked all on top of each other 😊.
On that note: i would also appreciate more of the Cast leard Kaio Ken because I believe it to be a very useful technique even if someone would only be able to handle the base Kaio Ken multiplier.
Edit: Imagine a Ssj4 Broly 😮
For starters, good video.
Second of all, I am a GT Fan, but not trying to be a GT Meat Rider rn, but I don’t really think you’re being too fair for GT Goku.
I mean, yeah you could say that when GT Goku first got SSJ4, SSJ4 could’ve been stronger then Potara Fusion (let’s say 40,000x as one of your boosts you brought up), but then again, you could say that SSJ4 would grow stronger just like the Ultimate Form, as SSJ4 (well, pretty sure it was Golden Great Ape, but would be the same for SSJ4 nonetheless) was said to be similar to the Ultimate Form, as both Forms draw out hidden battle power/potential to its Utmost Limits.
GT Gokus Base Form at the start of GT alone, would’ve also been far more powerful then a Base EoZ Goku (Base EoZ Goku would’ve been at least = if not stronger then a Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku, as EoZ Uub was stated to be greater/stronger then Kid Buu, and EoZ Goku didn’t even need to transform against Uub), GT Goku in the Baby Saga would’ve been stronger then he was at the start of GT, as he fight General Rildo, who was by far the strongest enemy Goku has faced in years before... well, you know, Baby, Super 17, and the Shadow Dragons, but since Super Baby 1 was stated to have the strongest energy ever felt in years, then it’s safe to say that he was far more powerful then SSJ Vegito, Super Baby 2 being even more powerful then Super Baby 1, and SSJ4 Goku (as stated by Elder Kai) wasn’t even using a fraction of his Power against Super Baby 2.
But I also think you’ve left out a little bit of an important statement about SSJ4.
GT Goku in the Shadow Dragon Saga did say when fighting Eis Shenron that SSJ4 “Learns and Adapts” (not the exact words he used, but the same thing nonetheless) as SSJ4 Adapted to Eis Shenrons Freezing Beam (and probably more things), which made Eis Shenrons Freezing Beam not work on him anymore, but it was shown that if a Skill that SSJ4 has adapted to hasn’t been used on it in a while, SSJ4 will lose its adaption to it, as shown when Omega used Eis Shenrons Freezing Beam against SSJ4 Goku, and it worked (pretty sure Omega even said something about it aswell).
But it was shown that SSJ4 (well, at least I think it was Ultra Full Power SSJ4) was able to adapt to being physically blind, as SSJ4 heightened GT Gokus senses soo much, to the point where SSJ4 was able to see Omegas Attacks before he even makes them, and was dodging without even thinking, SSJ4 was pretty much the OG UI back then when you think about it.
The dude is just glazing dbs , outright lying with claims like sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time . That feat already outscales all of dbs Goku , as most comparable place is world of void in scaling which dbs Goku shook by UI.
Also , Super baby 1 statement's implication of dbz Vegito's power , only applies to GT continuity , since the level established by dbz itself is far outclassed by sugoroku space feat , so it's only GT pushing him further by that statement and implying he goes that far , not dbz , so that implication can't apply to dbs.
@@humanman9920 I mean, I’d definitely agree that he was kinda, though not really, glazzing DBS, though to be fair, DBS has horrible power scaling, GT has bad scaling aswell, but it’s no where near the stink-ass that DBS has, as it’s all over the place and doesn’t make sense half of the time, the Goku Black Saga being one, if not the biggest examples of terrible scaling, I’d go into detail, but tbh, don’t feel like going into detail.
These are all things mentioned and used in the video?
With the exception of the adaptation ssj4 brings that you said in the comment. Which yea is an ability of the form, but isn't something that makes him any stronger, and isn't really gonna matter with such a gigantic gap between the two of them.
@@gojirarex5138 GT Gokus Base was never really mentioned in the Video, he pretty much just skipped to SSJ4s Multiplier (believed Multiplier), and lightly talked about some of GT Gokus feats.
But then again, DBS as a whole has pretty stupid and inconsistent power scaling, GT has bad power scaling aswell, but it’s not as bad as DBS, so because of how inconsistent DBS can be, then there’s really no telling if GT Goku would stack up to Goku Black, as I’ve said, I wasn’t in the mood to go into detail, but I’ll talk about it a little bit, SSJ2 Future Trunks couldn’t even compete with a Base Goku Black, Goku Blacks Base was = if not a bit stronger then a SSJ2 Goku, yet a SSJ2 Future Trunks only a couple of minutes after Goku Black left, is pretty much near if not = to a SSJ3 Goku... somehow?, Base Goku Black after his first fight with SSJ2 Goku, got his first actual Zenki/Boost, which put his Base at a level where he can casually take hits from a SSJB Vegeta, a newly obtained Rose Goku Black, was able to curb stomp a SSJB Vegeta without any effort, yet somehow a SSJ2 Future Trunks (before he even got SSJ Rage) was able to stand his ground against a Rose Goku Black, a SSJB Goku didn’t even fair any better against him aswell, hell SSJB Goku somehow struggled to a Immortal Zamasu (and last time I checked, being Immortal doesn’t make you stronger)
Gt fanboys gonna cry
😅😅 no we ain't this guy doesnt know much
@@theinvestigativemillennial9381 No one asked? Thanks for outing yourself tho.
I always saw Goku absorbing SSG into base as a temporary boost. He can still fight at that level of power but he isn't God level every time you see him. Every fight in Super that involves Goku using a normal SSJ transformation is Goku fighting a character who isn't God level. Too many examples to count so I'll make it quick. In the universe 6 tournament, base Goku needed SSJ against Frost who Piccolo stood a chance again, the same Piccolo who had trouble with a Frieza soldier. Super Saiyan Blue or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the result of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan meaning when he uses the yellow forms, he's not using the power of a Super Saiyan God. So no, Cabba and SSJ2 Future Trunks weren't stronger than BOG God Goku(Although Trunks surpasses it in Rage).
Believe it or not, there is a way to find a decent multiplier for SSG. Vados in the tournament of power says Potara combines both of their full powers and multiplies by that by 10s of times. At it's lowest Vegito is Goku's full power + Vegeta's full power x 20. Let's say Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta are both ones.
Goku: 1
SSJ3 Goku 400
Vegeta: 1
Vegeta: 100
Base Vegito = (400 + 100) 20
Base Vegito = 10,000
SSJ3 Vegito = 4,000,000
SSG Goku > SS3 Vegito.
At it's lowest, SSG is at least 4,000,000 times base according to the Super anime's own scaling via Vados which is likely a retcon to the daizenshuu. It also just goes to show you how much of a beast Vegito and Zamasu were. This is a downplay by the way. I excluded the rival boost and ignored statements implying Vegito is stronger than a hypothetical fusion between Goku and Gohan.
Here's my take. So we know Strongest form 1 Baby has the greatest Saiyan power if we are to believe Goku was including SSJ Vegito. If strongest form 2 is to be compared to SSJ3, then Strongest form Baby 2 is 8 times stronger than a fighter who's a bit stronger than a Buu Saga SSJ3 Vegito. This would be impressive but remember, Base GT Goku is already stronger than Z SSJ3 Goku but BOG Goku wasn't much stronger than base End of Z Goku. By going SSG for the first time, Goku was able to reach power comparable to Strongest Form 2 Baby and only continued to tap into the full strength of the form. Ironically, the stronger you think Base Goku is, the more SSG eclipses SSJ4 in power since if Base go was as strong as say... SSJ3 Gotenks, he'd need less of a power up to achieve what SSG Goku achieved. Whether you believe Goku's base is God level or if it's something he taps into like a transformation, God forms are formidable enough on their own to be a major threat in the GT timeline. Goku Black Arc Goku and Vegeta are also much stronger than in ROF and they get stronger in the Black arc while having a 50 times boost on top of SSG. It's safe to say that Goku Black would most likely beat GT Goku.
Exactly, i mean he can use his ssj god power whitout transforming, but that doesnt mean its his base form.
Another example is goku ssj3 against trunks ssj2, if he really did absorb ssj god power, his base would be more than enough
@@nunobatista5822 I thought about that too but I didn't want my comment to get redundant. Legit everytime we see SSJ forms, he's fighting a Buu saga tier or below character. Everytime we've seen Goku doing SSG like things outside the form, he's been in base and when he goes SSJ while using that power, he goes blue instead. Pretop, Goku is shown to be at Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level in SSJ2(Gohan gets a power up after this but it's said he regained his power). If Goku just absorbed God into base, it wouldn't make sense because Goku would be stacking SSG on top of SSG. Everything in the anime goes against the notion that Goku's base is just God level.
meanwhile goku fighting beerus later in base:
@@ghostslord-23 Yeah, base form, not normal Super Saiyan. He can use God power in base, but he's not always using God power. The lore behind Super Saiyan blue supports this. Outside of the beerus fight, where SSG wore out but not the power, we never see SSJ-SSJ3 fight at godly levels again. Goku CAN stack SSJ on top of a godly base, but when he does, it's Super Saiyan Blue.
@@phantomrogue7894 actually goku absorbed the power but it didnt become god ki
ssg still has a multiplier, and ssjb is ssjg x ssj
2:38 rage Shannon was able to take the times 10 Kamehameha. Later Goku stated that Nova Shenron is stronger than the other dragons through dialogue about the power he was sensing from him. This is while they were both suppress.
Send Shenron tanks the times 10 Kamehameha add Goku surpass the same with super full power Saiyan 4 and matches him when he becomes Omega shenron. Then Goku in base similar to how Vegeta was able to catch up to Jiren's punches, Goku was able to start seeing Omega Shenron coming at them and ended up surpassing him and hold back his negative Karma ball which is an infinite amount of energy infinitely densed.
Goku Black wins through feats but if we could see an actual scale of how strong Base GT Goku is, we would be able to see the true extent of GT Goku's powers. Doesn't matter how much powerscaling someone does for each character, feats are everything especially in a show like Dragon Ball where even a single extra trait makes a world of a difference in a fight
9:45 Base Goku (GT) was also stated to be stonger than Vegtio SSJ.
No he dominated Rildo who was stated stronger than Buu by him . But Sugoroku space feat that he did later outscales all of dbs Goku
@@humanman9920 GT Goku is a stronger EoZ Goku by 5+ years by the start of the series. EoZ Goku is already stated to be the strongest in all of Z including Vegito.
@@humanman9920No he doesn't lol. Did you not watch the video?
@@siei3i37 The video is wrong
Alternative title: how many fingers does base end of BOG Goku need to defeat Ssj4 GT Goku?
Like a quarter of a finger? I think G4 dies if Bog goku breathes too hard
GT beats super
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse it doesn't
Base bog goku
@@kaique_candoStops training regularly huh? Let's see... spent his childhood training... trained again to the point he baffled Tien&co at the end of DB... was the strongest Z-warrior around besides his son's potential... spent a year training in the afterlife... trained relentlessly for Namek... trained new techniques on Yardrat... trained for 3 years straight for the androids, then one more for Cell... and spent his time in the afterlife training so hard he broke the realm of possibility by achieving the mind boggling SSJ3.
While BOG Goku might be slightly weaker than end of Buu saga Goku, him stopping his training is so wrong I'm impressed you would even try the argument.
Ok, i agree with the overall result but i disagree with the scaling, specifically the gt part. I have scaled both series myself, so i see a lot of problems with this scale.
Let's go over gt goku, at the start of gt, he is unquantifiabley stronger than his z self. So, not much till the rildo fight, Where he directly states that rildo is stronger than buu and by extension goku himself, we don't know which buu but it's safe to assume it's kid buu since he was the last one to fight goku. Kid buu was a ssj3 level opponent so, base goku is now 400 times stronger as well. Later he fights baby, who destroys him while in ssj3 despite being in his base (ssj form), baby later gets a multipler similar to ssj3, so 8 times or 3200 times stronger than base goku (who himself is 400 times stronger than his z self in base). Goku in great ape destroys him, now here's my biggest gripe with your scaling. Gold great ape isn't ssj x great ape, it's a different form all together, to my knowledge nowhere is it stated that it's ssj great ape. Anyways great ape will be a 3200 x multiplier, goku then turns ssj4 which baby matches in his great ape form which according to my calculations, should also be a 8 x multiplier from ssj3. Therefore, ssj4 is 64x ssj3 or 25,600x base. Goku then uses super full power ssj4, which should atleast be 10x as powerful since baby uses a death ball on him which should be above goku's 10x kamehameha, which baby matched with his auper galick gun. So, sfssj4 should he atleast 256,000 times base or 640 times ssj3.
In the super 17 arc, goku just gets 8 times stronger with no much else to say. Majuub, who was able to fight baby in his strongest form 2, was completely destroyed by 17. Goku in ssj was able to fight evenly with 17, so 8 x stronger. Finally let's get to the shadow dragons arc, not much happens till the fight against nova. Where goku randomly states that base nova is the strongest enemy yet, putting him above 17 and rage shenron, characters with power comparable or greater than goku's 10x kamehameha. Therefore, goku randomly gets stronger than his previous strongest level of power with ssj4. So goku's max power (with ssj4) essentially got squared, truly gt stands for goku time. Any syn arrives and goku gets 10x stronger due again, syn walking of a 10x kamehameha. So that's it, Goku should be a total of 20.9 quadrillion times stronger than his z self's base or 52.4 trillion times stronger than his z self's ssj3 form. I genuinely didn't know it will get THIS high but makes sense.
Anyways, i agree with super scale but I won't scale it here because it's just verrrrrrrrrrry long and don't wanna write it, just know even base black can dogwalk gt goku at his peak
Nope , baseless assumption about kid buu , statement about " Buu " will apply to whichever character is Buu .
Later , clearly dominates Super baby 2 in Golden ozaru not just matching , lowest multiplier combination for that being 10x ssj3 , 4000x base . Ssj4 and full power estimations are fine These are lowballs that are set in stone not caps .
Proper observation on sugoroku space and its feat is all that's needed to debunk this video with the outright false claims it made about it specifically , Base GT Goku since that feat is outscaling all of dbs Goku whose best feat was shaking a place on a similar scale in UI , let alone Goku black.
@@humanman9920 Sure. I agree with the buu stuff, I was just making a convenient assumption and also the fact that kid buu was final boss of dbz. Since the other buu's will require much more scaling to do and it's pretty exhausting but I think the overall powerups should remain the same as they don't have much to do with the buu statement.
The multipliers I am using are calculated without taking whose stronger into account as it is very inconsistent to scale power difference in dragon, it ranges from a few percent difference to multiple times different. Too inconsistent, so I just ignore it to avoid too much speculation. So, yes, it's lowball but it's the only scale that has validity.
No. Hard disagree, the suguroku space has basically no scaling around it. It's literally just an dimension, no real statements about size or anything for that matter, watch ssjryu's debunk of Saiyan scholar, he makes valid points against it. All we have about it is that was stated to be 'eternal', which could mean a number of things, it's mostly refer to the endless flow of time or something basically just that it's forever lasting. This doesn't really hold up, since time is infinite for anything even for a nugget. The point is, it's just a dimension of unknown size and has time in it that just so happens to be in the middle of time and space, which doesn't really mean anything. Btw before you bring up the immortal raccoons to prove it has no time, they just stopped aging there, it's ambiguous how that happened.
Also dbs Goku's best feat isn't shaking the world of void. That's literally one of the weaker feats in the series, it's just universal+ due to shaking an infinite dimension, it's more of speed feat to be fair. It just solidly gives Goku infinite speed and inaccessible speed, as the world of void apparently not having time. Anyways if we are talking about the best feats in the series, it will either be the potential timeline busting one which i really don't wanna discuss, it's A whole headache or outscaling beerus and Champa (anime only), where those two can casually destroy their respective universal macrocosms, it's like twice the power of anything in GT at maximum due to their being only one universe in GT but it's irrelevant in the argument.
Since ssg at the START of super could destroy the entire universe 7 macrocosm pretty easily, he would scale from Low multiversal to multiversal on the lower end to potentially 5D, due to the afterlife having statements for dimensional transcendence but it's up to you to decide. Btw omega shenron scales to this and by extension gogeta too but we are talking about Goku in the shadow dragons Arc in ssj4, he doesn't but does scale to universal+ with end of gt Goku probably scaling above this. But the problem is the sheer increase in power present in super, he just keep getting stronger and stronger randomly, like in the manga in the manga ssj Goku black beats up blue Vegeta, like it's like beating up guy who is more than a Ssj3 fusion x 50 times power. Like ssb is no joke, that thing is a fucking monster. So I think manga Goku black is better match than anime Goku, who is even more ridiculous than this.
@@pragyankalita7848" basically no scaling around it , no statements about size or anything " false . Stated " between time and space where nobody from outside can help " with the supporting statement of being capable of making one " wander forever " which confirms it being infinite . Not just " eternal " , " time is infinite for anything even a nugget " being false equivalence as nugget isn't a living thing that is stated to wander forever in it . Being the highest infinity so far stated simply not having time and space isn't " unknown size ".
" before u bring up this argument , it's ambiguous how that happened , but it doesn't have the obvious reason that this place has explicit statements for " 😂 Sure bud , saying everything that doesn't match up with this presumption based on false reason ya just presented is not a good argument .
Potential timeline busting isn't Goku's feat , don't see how that's clearly above either when RDB's power reaches outside time and space and further than the kaioshin's reach from the bottom of mortal universe while threatening existence erasure against the basic rules of the world of living and afterlife and even by the indirect hit making Goku stuck between life and death which are binary oppositions scaling this power upto outerversal scale .
Shadow dragon arc characters scale leagues above that. As Base Goku's sugoroku space feat is already on a higher scale . Omega effortlessly k*lling the universe with the weakest method possible , using the black aura ability from the weakest dragon also shown like the weakest attack he has since that's the only time he uses that and not when he's royally pissed or backed into a corner , only using regular attacks or negative karma ball that is stated to have the negative energy of all seven dragons , while also having no more things to destroy in the continuity after sugoroku space is already , doesn't exactly favour dbs characters as people try to say . Infact , using a feat like this even if it WAS through his strongest attack in a hypothetical scenario , would still be faulty logic as even that is shown wrong before in dragon ball . As mastered ssj Goku was also only stated capable of destroying earth with his kamehameha when characters since saiyan saga have been planet busting level . Before even mentioning dbs has outright statements like Frieza really threatening GoD Toppo with a planetary attack , Whis saying " there's no way i can stop the power strong enough to end the world " making dbs characters scaling more questionable than anything else . In comparison to all that , using Omega's feat as a cap to greater scaling feats from before when he's still destroying all that exists with the weakest method possible , is at best a reach .
@@humanman9920 I still disagree with the suguroku space being infinite. It's stated to be between space and time, can you please explain how it makes it biggest infinity ever stated in the dbz verse? When the clearly much much bigger universe exists. Between space and time is just it's location, it has nothing to with anything else. As for the wander forever statement, it's rather vague but let's give you that. That would make base gt Goku high universal (for destroying an infinite dimension or universe). That's the maximum for it cause it doesn't have any statements for dimensionality. That's literally a fodder feat in comparison to most of dbz and super.
Now on the timeline, it's a super structure that contains the 12 universes (which are as big as the universe 7 or just the default dbz universe.) and the neutral space (the space between universes and which covers the rest of the multiverse, stated by Champa). Alright, we know each universe is atleast low multiversal with their size being infinite, then the timeline should be atleast 5 to 6 dimensional, due to it containing both the universes and the neutral space. Guess what? Merged zamasu was able infiltrate and occupy a timeline. So anyone stronger than or equal to zamasu should be there as well, Goku in black Arc implied he was capable of doing something if he had a senzu buttttttttttt this is pretty wonky. We don't even need it in this argument.
Lastly, Omega shenron is indeed doing it passively but it's rather slow. It wasn't stated to be instant like with bog Goku. It's more like disease to universe than outright destruction to be fair but it still qualifies to be low multiversal. Same with gogeta but not with Goku himself. Gt Goku on his own doesn't scale to universal destruction, he's at best universal+ (due to scaling above the living world). It would be unjust to give Goku scaling to omega just because they are from the Same verse, it's like saying super Goku scales to zeno.
As for gogeta and Omega, they are probably relevant up until the Ui omen Goku, as that's when they reach duo universe busting powers. It's wayy higher than anything possible for gt, cause it only has 1 universe that's all. Though it is only the case if they stack up in numerical scaling. But that's all.
Also dude stop, this debate ain't going nowhere. If you reply I can't myself from debating 😭. It's a habit from reddit.
@@pragyankalita7848 Disagreeing doesn't change facts tho . One can't " wander forever " in a place that either has limited time or space hence the supporting statement refers to it being infinite sized and due to not having time and space its infinite scale is the greatest . " clearly much bigger universe " based on what ? Where's ur proof ? A diagram showing it bigger ? Statement establishing its outside time and space like the subspace let alone sugoroku space which kaioushin can't even reach unlike the rest of the universe and subspace ? " is just its location , nothing to do with anything else " Learn what the words u use mean first . Not being bound by space and time means its scale is bound to be potentially greater. To prove it isn't u need something proving it's smaller or simply limited in size , yet the statements only say the opposite instead . Not really vague that's all that is needed to give an understanding about what it exactly means by " between time and space " . Correction , high multiversal , beyond time and space infinite is a greater infinite than ones not stated simply beyond time and space , it doesn't only humiliate dbz feats badly but also outscales all of dbs Goku upto now , and that's the lowball after ignoring the strong implications it has for being above life and death as well since Goku is stuck between them in it which are binary oppositions being beyond which at the same time would make it outerversal , but at worst world of void from dbs only matches and Baby's RDB is still outerversal for not only catching Goku from the subspace outside space and time Kibito kai was travelling through with IT , after being used in the living world the bottom of db universe sphere and warping Goku to a dimension even further beyond time and space where kais can't reach , but also put him between life and death .
" occupy a timeline " Doesn't change the fact there's no new place on the level of sugoroku space shown being taken over cuz that's world of void . Zamasu taking over the other universes in a timeline gets him to subspace level that's the " neutral spaces " u're talking about " not belonging to any world " , sugoroku space is one step further as Kibito kai who travels through subspace in IT can't reach it . U do infact need that and more , which u don't have.
" wasn't stated to be instant like BoG Goku " and where exactly was BoG feat stated to be instant ? If anything it was shown longer with their long 3 punch and beam clashes implied to be capable enough , while for Omega's Old kai said " soon " and told Kibito kai there was nowhere to run to . " more like a disease than outright destruction " and same goes for Zamasu's feat that u mentioned and more so than Omega since in his there was no destruction involved . He's already high universal for *accidently* shaking hell and heaven , high multiversal for destroying sugoroku space . Not giving him Omega's scaling through his weakest attack doesn't change anything , and yet in terms of properly scaling to him he did destroy him with Ssj4 dragon fist and Omega only came back with his broken regeneration immortality he got from one of the other dragons .
" probably " isn't a valid argument / reasoning / proof . " duo universe busting powers " Finite amount of lower infinites don't match a higher infinite that is sugoroku space.
Oh no 😭 what will people ever do this redditor is saying he'll continue the debate with his desperate ass " finite amount of multiple universes are higher than a greater infinite , double universe busting power 🥺 " reasoning . Replying doesn't change the fact that it's clear all u can do is make a poor attempt at downplaying GT scaling with " oh but dbs did this and this pls it's greate- uhh.. probably come on it's just greater 😭 " If u have something of value to add u're welcome to , otherwise no need to waste everyone's time .
I don't understand why Dragon Ball fans are so judgmental and toxic towards GT. I don’t argue with the fact that SS4 Goku will lose to DBS Goku from the arc, for example Zamasu, (Without taking into account, a hundred years later Goku). But I am indignant at many videos, edits and surveys where people simply underestimate and trivially underestimate GT
I like both of these Gokus. One has the sickest SSJ form EVER, and the other has a sword for a weapon. But I agree, there’s just not enough info to help support SSJ 4’s case 😞
finally someone that is not just glazing for gt honesty it's been like a trend at this point
Cant believe that some people in the comments genuinely think that gt has outerversal feats just cause baby can warp reality like thats a really crazy thing like its never been done before, or that omega shenron was destorying a universe slowly instantly scales higher than beerus and its outer. Fucking gt mega fans are crazy
It's not about warping reality , it's the scale of cosmology his power reached by doing that , and yes that is outerversal , this video outright lying about it having quantifiable space and time doesn't change the fact that it's a completely baseless claim and a wild reach , especially when it's stated capable of making one " wander forever " as a supporting statement confirms the earlier statement doesn't just mean a magical little thing this video calls it but actually infinite beyond all the previous realms , if the kais simply not being able to reach it while they can do that to other realms or the subspace itself this video claims sugoroku space to be in , wasn't already enough . Yes that scale of a feat has really not been done before in dragon ball .
Omega shenron destroying universe from the ability that comes from the weakest dragon , just ending everything with negative energy coming out of his existence doesn't help the case of dbs or downplaying GT , from no angle is that attack supposed to be his strongest , as he used negative karma ball the thing made from the negative energy of all seven dragons whenever either he's royally pissed or backed into a corner .
This Omega shenron logic is like saying nobody before Mastered ssj Goku was planet buster cuz his strongest attack was only stated strong enough to destroy earth . Hell it's worse , cuz Omega's case is evidently using his weakest method , while mastered Goku ssj is actually using his strongest attack .
Them making Omega take his time with the weakest attack to destroy all that the continuity even has left after sugoroku space is already gone , doesn't mean he's capped there just because some people would like him to be , especially when previous feats show outerverscale by a pretty good backing on sugoroku space being above all previous realms .
Destroying the Sugoroku Space isn't even an impressive feat when you realize that characters as far back as the Buu saga have been capable of destroying individual 3D realms with their sheer power alone. Buu was going to destroy the Grand Kai's planet which was nearly universal in size, Goku has shook and even warped the afterlife when turning into a ssj3 multiple times, Gogeta in fusion reborn just from being created warped the entirety of hell, Buuhan's screaming was going to tear apart the entire universe 7 macrocosm, ect. GT Goku destroying a dimension in base means nothing because multiple characters have already done feats similar to this.
@@ashuraomega1000 Literally this. Like I know that sometimes doing feats doesn't mean that you can tank said feats too, but when you realize that Buu saga characters have been doing this for a while, it kinda defeats your entire argument.
I understand that you don't like GT but you need to stop using what you want to build your narrative about its scaling
💯 Ikr it's ridiculous how this much misinformation is just out here being called proper scaling lmao
No, he's actually right.Multiple other people have set the exact same things
You shouldve seen the diabolical take he made the last time for GT scaling. He said everyone in Buu saga was suppressed so according to him Buu Saga Vegito should be able to compete with Baby and Super Vegito slams all of GT LOL actual clown takes
@@fidelgameswow hes fucking slow
@@zefsavage4851 how he's right? By ignoring half of gt?
That picture of goku black in the thumbnail actually goes hard
The only crazy scaling I’ve seen for GT is when people scale Omega Shenron. Which is universal and higher.
The biggest obstacle goku black is going against in the GT timeline is that GT goku would kill him ON THE SPOT, he wouldn’t waste time to see how strong he is, also vegeta is cool with fusing
You know who else was perfectly fine with fusing?
that’s objectively incorrect. GT Goku still “wastes time” to see how strong his opponents are. He did this with the Sigma force, his first time fighting Baby Vegeta as he literally mentions how excited his body feels fighting Baby. He literally is smiling when Baby is destroying him. He also fought to see how strong Nuova is. SSJ4 Gogeta would do nothing to Black anyway
@@lonkstakesyeah yeah merged zamasu merks GT,just pointing out how the only reason goku black lives is that super goku wanted to test his power
He can’t bc base goku black is far durable for him
@@liammcguire1954 there’s a difference between how he perceives someone who’s no real threat to him like the sigma force,and someone who he sees as a threat and wants to take out,the second baby got out of vegetas body he killed him on the spot,and super 17,and all the shadow dragons,nova shenron was the chillest of the dragons
Pop out and show them Lonk
Thank you so much goat
2:05 False , there's no reason to assume he'd be holding back more against him than he was against others as before Ssj2 Vegeta he didn't only not feel the need to dodge but simply tank the attacks effortlessly , there is no reason for him to make any similar expression to the one he does after taking Goku's punch and getting thrown to the other side of the world , this theory clearly contradicts Super 17's way of playing with his opponents / holding back upto now and is only based on a presumption that Goku hasn't gotten stronger instead of an actual good reason to prove it.
" no way to prove he actually got stronger " Equally punch clashes against Super 17 and throws him to the other side of the earth hurting him pretty damn good with the gut punch and he has to block it with the hand the next time Goku does it , also Goku being the first opponent he absorbs ki blasts of . Also no that's not just " 8x " but upwards of 64x as Super baby 2 itself is stated to resemble ssj3 in GT Perfect Files who Majuub dominated to the point Baby had to inflate his muscles like the grade 2 or 3 ssj back in the day to beat Majuub in the beam clash .
2:33 Syn literally tanked Ssj4 Goku's 10x kamehameha in their first fight . Increased full power Ssj4 Goku overwhelms him in every sense of the word .
2:40 Yes he does he destroyed him with the dragon fist and pretty much won if not for his broken regeneration ability that he got from one of the other dragons bringing him back . Final explosion is also implied to have the same level of effect which falls in line with Super 17 after having absorbed 10x kamehameha getting significantly injured by it and only surviving because of putting up a special barrier at the last moment .
2:55 The statement on screen literally says " more than an even match " and is shown to get clearly dominated by him...
3:32 No u're not , saying it " resembles ssj3 " as a general statement without specifying anything means the statement applies as an overall so including one of the most important aspects of it as well , it's more different in looks than it is similar anyway so there's no meaning of just making that statement for just some little similarity in looks without even mentioning it , so it's pretty blatantly giving an understanding of that form overall by comparing it to ssj3.
5:56 No they don't , what is the basis of saying that ? HTC only has slowed time and about the size of the earth , Sugoroku space has no quantified anything . Stated capable of making people " wander forever " which confirms what " between space and time " should actually mean making it leagues beyond HTC , it's also above life and death as it restores Goku's clothes and body in it by default while other statements between Sugoro and Goku saying he's not dead yet but not back to life either , the reference of sanzu river giving a clear idea of its nature as that's a place between the living and the dead , which doesn't exist in dragon ball as we know it because this is the first time anyone is shown reaching sugoroku space and never before whenever they went to afterlife , Sugoro also says this place is worse in severity. Baby with his RDB also says Goku wouldn't be able to come back to life after that which also confirms this transcends everything else from before as anyone too overwhelmed in power is supposed to go to afterlife before this point . Supreme kais are also stated to have no power in it ,see it or reach it even though according to this " oh this is just that subspace " theory they should be able to as they already travel it in their instant teleportation and are stated to be watching over the entire world . Saying HTC is comparable to this place is completely baseless and a reach , other than the fact that in the feats themselves Goku makes Sugoroku space explode while in Buu saga characters only made small holes through HTC which again is not at all comparable to Sugoroku space in any case .
9:47 Nah bro how can we be super nice and admit an absolute fact that is proven both by statements and the ridiculous shown feats in the show both establishing Dbz Vegito losing way before Ssj4 Goku even appears ? Being too kind to GT there not outright ignoring the info come on now .
9:55 No it's not , it's higher than the very lowball estimation we have with concrete evidence not " possible quantifications " as the level of dominations aren't taken into account and golden ozaru can literally be assigned any multiplier over ssj3 and it wouldn't be wrong by default , evidence pointing to a higher multiplier than this lowball we conclude for some understanding isn't unreasonable just because . 40,000x is a bare minimum not a cap .
10:13 That's GT's continuity though , the level dbz itself established Vegito far surpassed with the Sugoroku space feat , so GT implying Vegito was stronger and getting him a bit further is exclusive to GT's continuity and scaling , can't be applied to Super , which only scales off the level shown in dbz or their own additional scaling statements .
Sugoroku space is just established above in scaling which is just Base GT Goku , let alone Ssj4 who tanks RDB no effort the same attack that sent him there all the way from the bottom of mortal universe by an indirect hit . The place from dbs similar in scale to it is world of void which it took dbs Goku UI to even shake let alone destroy like GT Goku did .
Omega's feat helps with nothing as he's stated capable of destroying all that exists in that continuity after sugoroku space already got destroyed by base Goku , by his weakest possible method in every sense of the word , not only the black aura ability he uses while doing that comes from the weakest and first dragon Goku encountered , but even Omega never uses this power whenever he should be using his strongest attack whether he's royally pissed at Gogeta 4 or backed into a corner by the Goku holding a spirit bomb who is somehow withstanding his regular hits while it's heavily implied he's neither alive nor dead which is when he's stated to have entered the change state and later showing the existence itself which seems on the level of something like sugoroku space. He only ever used that ability when he's in the most comfortable position against the opponents , k*lling the universe by just standing there menacingly . Characters not attempting to destroy something doesn't mean they can't . U're saying mastered ssj Goku in Cell saga was just planet level for the statement of his well charged kamehameha from above only being stated capable of destroying earth ? And that less strong characters don't scale to planet level and way above because of not scaling to him ? Ssj4 Goku wins easily .
oh this is almost always overlooked about goku's ssj1 transformation in GT and the golden great ape oozaru multiplier, and,
Yes my good man what i am about to tell you is a cutting edge source i delved deep in finding in what supports goku ssj1 in gt being a 100× multiplier if u take a look at el manga legendario transformations for trunks ssj1 grade3 it says- (him getting it) gave him a 10× multiplier but with many draw backs and goku's ssj1 grade4 is above that giving it a higher multiplier this also means his other transformation would be a higher multiplier aswell making rildo statements valid also putting golden great ape oozaru at a 1000× instead of a 500 times multiplier.
3:41 if this number is true then golden uzairu cannot be 10 times Super Saiyan 1 where it is only 500 times stronger if it was 10 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 then your numbers will make more sense. However this doesn't make any sense either still because he still has the Revenge death ball which is an evil spirit bomb and it is exponentially above him as that is his ultimate move. A move that would easily be able to take out a golden uzoaru by being exponentially above it.
1:00 he never talks about shadow dragons saga goku 😐
Even in this video, he stopped at the baby saga. Probably because he knows that 99% of Goku's growth happens after the baby saga.
@@Top_E_OfficialHe also straight up lied about Sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time cuz he knows most people didn't watch or don't remember gt. It instead has supporting evidence of the opposite with " wander forever " and being established outside the reach of the kais when they can casually travel the subspace he's claiming sugoroku space is in , with HTC that just has slower time and about the size of earth just an alternate dimension in mortal universe 😂
@humanman9920 Yeah, that guide comparing HBTC to sugoroku was weird. They are both totally different. HBTC clearly has time it's only much slower than Earth 1 year = 1 day. Sugoroku doesn't have any time since the tunaki child didn't age at all after playing 33 million games in a row. And without time, there is no space either.
Guides are bs most of the time. Anyway, I only the show as a source.
@@Top_E_Official It also only says that about the subspace that these are linked to not the dimensions themselves , space and time descriptions of HTC confirm it's on a way lower level than Sugoroku space.
You shouldve seen his last take about GT. He genuinely believes that SSJ Buu Saga Vegito slams all of GT LOL
You saying you're gonna be "as nice to GT as you can be" already tells me your bias
No, it means he’s giving the most lenient interpretations of power scaling possible for GT. Which he did
@@Rl55322No he didn't , he called admitting absolute facts well established in the series being " super nice " , ignoring a bunch of info about the increases , downplaying the Super 17 arc one saying pretty much " he suddenly started holding back and making that constipated impression from a punch of Goku because i say so " , outright lied about sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time comparing it to HTC and claiming that proves he's not just some confused person but a complete coper . What did i even expect from the dude who really tried to push dbz Vegito against GT Ssj4 Goku once , and he still hasn't given up saying " i'm super nice " for admitting the fact of dbz Vegito being outclassed way before Ssj4's introduction which is established both by statements and shown feats in the series , i was the dumb one thinking he may have worked on things...
I disagree with the GT Goku argument, but I like the way you explained Goku Black.
He's lowballing GT Goku, he didn't even brought up the universal spirit bomb aka Change state Goku in this video!
@@truthbehind8319Doesn't matter what you bring up he still can't be scaled to BoG Godku since he's weaker than Omega either way, and imo Omegas feat isn't as good as the BoG one. BoG is almost destroying the Macrocosm as collateral damage, while actively trying to not do it. Omegas feat is more like, his negative Ki is like a "poison" that will eventually destroy the universe.
@@good8619 Dude, actually Omega feat is more powerful then BOG, He was destroying the universe while standing still! And "his negative Ki is like a "poison" that will eventually destroy the universe. " Where do you find in GT that it would be a slow process when, the Kais where going to run, unlike BOG do your research before you try to school me!
@@truthbehind8319 There is no change state goku, even if there was he has 0 feats. Only feat he might have is tanking omega's blasts but goku is always tanking blasts with the spirit bomb he tanks attacks from final form frieza who's 20x stronger, kid buu whos over 400x stronger than him. So it wouldn't be hard for him to tank omega's blasts.
@@truthbehind8319he said he was using ss4 goku from the shadow dragon arcs not “changed state” goku
so a couple things, first of all the guide scan that says "perhaps even stronger than super saiyan 4!" the actual japanese more accurately translates to 'it may even be as strong as super saiyan 4' which clearly flips the dynamic of that piece of scaling, also gt specifically follows the anime continuity, in the anime we clearly see vegito being pushed close to his limit towards the end of the buu fight after buus rage amp, and we acknowledge base gt goku as being well above buu, im not saying that goku black is weaker than ssj4 goku because we dont know how much stronger goku got between the bog arc and goku black arc, assumedly alot, but ssj4 goku is definitely far above god goku just because fat buu does better than goku in ssj3 against beerus, and logically base gt goku would be far above this
GT Goku in the base shook the entire realm of the afterlife by simply strengthening his ki, and this action threatened to destroy it... GT Goku is stronger than DBS Goku, at least until the movie Resurrection F.
Even that Buu scaling only works if you correlate GT to Z. Which in itself has issues
It isn't and gt goku is 10yrs after z and keeps up with the scaling and isn't on super bs "Gt" Goku Outscales In Feats Since he is consistent with his dbz counterpart buuhan was going to rip open dimensions base gt goku is fighting beings more powerful then buu or even buuhan ssj4 goku on top of basically getting autododges would outscale and fodder rose form black goku not even close in terms of forms yes rose at base has a higher amp character-wise with there amps hell no
I always liked the thought experiment of equating both SSG and SSJ4 to fusion as both are compared to that power a few times in the story. So this is throwing a bone to everyone and giving both forms some common ground. From there people can see for themselves how things would go down even in a 1:1 scenario. Does Goku Black decimate SSG in Rose? Yes, definitely. Did he decimate SSB in Rose? Yes, definitely. So even in what I would call a best case scenario for SSJ4, Goku Black stomps like Omega Shenron.
And this is before trying to figure out the difference in strength between base DBS Goku and base GT Goku.
Nope , this is pretty poorly made video at best . The things Goku black beats in dbs don't matter if the sugoroku space feat of GT outscales all of him .
And the difference in strength comes out pretty big , since Dbs Goku needed UI to shake the level of place GT Goku destroyed in base .
I like the idea on paper, but I can't condone it. The Vegito that Goku mentioned in Battle of Gods is the Original Manga's, who all we know is impossibly (but vaguely) stronger than everyone in the Buu Saga. At best upscaling off Solar System to Multi-Solar System level fighters. ANIME Vegito (which is what GT Goku and Baby Vegeta are referencing if they mean him with "Saiya Power," as well as the Anime Guide*) is an entirely different beast. He was able to totally stop Buuhan's Outside Space, which via his raw power was going to bust the *Macrocosm.* To put it simply, Anime Vegito (albeit as a SSJ) is already equal to DBS Goku at Battle of Gods. And that's ignoring how in the Anime, Kid Buu was stronger than Buuhan, so Goku likely was at that level anyway.
*From what I understand, the Anime Guide was talking about the relevant power given by Fusion itself versus SSJ4's power boost, not SSJ4 GOKU and Z-Vegito's LITERAL power.
Pretty sure the video already countered Sugoroku space dude. But I'll add a bit more info for anyone still hung up about it. Baby hit Kibito Kai which sent him off course while travelling in the void and it sent Goku flying into the space. Land of the Kais and the mortal plane are within the same universe so whatever void he's travelling through shouldn't even be a separate dimension and even if it is Sugroku clearly exists within a greater expanse so the space itself is not infinite. The chance gods are not omniscient and omnipresent beings of their own realm, if they were they'd know someone was cheating. When breaking out, Goku's power is directly compared to a galaxy in strength and he strikes a hole in space time like Buu would. Goku is lost in the void and need kibito kai to break him out, so Goku cannot break free from the infinite void himself. Finally, Goku gets trapped in Hell later, so once again he can't break free from another dimension and needed help.
GT goes to great lengths to undermine the feats moreso than most other things, which is actually pretty respectable. This *could* have been turned into something stupid but I think the writing in-universe shuts it down.
@@wolfgod6443No it didn't brother , but i'd like to see u try . " Baby hit Kibito which sent him off course travelling in the void and it sent Goku flying into that space "
Nope
" I had no idea that the evil power would have such force . It *warped* him into a different dimension of space "
" whatever void he's travelling through shouldn't even be a separate dimension " doesn't change the fact that Sugoroku space is as he can't reach it unlike the space he was travelling through . " clearly exists within a greater expanse so the space itself is not infinite " That's not how it works , entire universe in dragon ball is a greater expanse yet the mortal universe is stated infinite . Also , it doesn't physically exist on the same plane as the rest of the universe to be even limited by its space when it's stated to be between space and time and the supporting statement " wander forever " confirming its infinite size . Goku spawns into the unrecognizable void Kibito kai is able to reach after he destroyed Sugoroku space and isn't already there with some explosion happening .
" compared to a galaxy in strength " Never happened , if that's another weird thing from the dub that's not valid here . " need Kibito kai to break him out " He never broke him out but only took him to kaioshin realm , false presumption about Goku's power without him even trying to clash it against the void he was in. Kibito kai being able to reach it already makes it lower in scaling than Sugoroku space .
" can't break free from another dimension and needed help " after he accidently shook heaven and hell by just charging ki in base from hell and had to stop saying " oops , guess i went a bit overboard " lmao , he can do something doesn't mean he's literally gonna destroy important realms of his universe messing up the balance even more than it already was. He only needed help to get to earth without completely blowing up hell and even heaven considering his power just mistakenly reached there , which falls in line with sugoroku space feat cuz he's easily strong enough to destroy hell after that.
Don't know what u mean by " undermine " there , but ur comment was just a failed attempt at disproving something well established , ur whole reasoning is " why isn't Golu going around destroying everything after that like a mindless monster ? Because he can't " doesn't really work other than the fact that ya didn't disprove the feat itself in the first place. Nothing stupid there , GT took the dimensional scaling Buu saga started to the next levels , dbs Goku just happens to not have gone that far yet .
Great Video! 👍
bruh i saw this coming before i even clicked lmoa
Great video feats in super just outclass what is shown in GT
Hi can you make a video on the strength of gogeta blue. Nice video btw.
uhhh maybe, his scaling is pretty brief
@@lonkstakes thanks man. Would appreciate it. Like maybe a gogeta vs ui goku from the top kinda thing.
@@seansean250There is a unquantifiable difference in strength between base goku in these so ui would slam
Especially coz dbs broly follows manga canon hence the lack of blovolution and ssbkk
Unless you wanna argue stamina in which case it’s whether or not goku can win before mui runs out
This whole "gT maSsIvElY oUtScAlEs sUpEr lOl" thing was popularized by Official Divine and Kazi and I absolutely hate it
Edit: Not saying Divine and Kazi are bad scalers, they're not but their take on GT's scaling is absolutely abysmal
No one asked
Yeah and worst all those two are already reaching by scaling Dragon Ball Characters to be outerversal.
It does beat super
Gt goku destroyed a entire dimension in base
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse was it stated to be infinite cuz vegeta destroyed the time chamber which is infinite
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse the guy in the video also skipped over that he defeated omega shenron and by him just existing was going to destroy the macrocosm of universe7 including infinite realms
Destroying the Sugoroku Space isn't even an impressive feat when you realize that characters as far back as the Buu saga have been capable of destroying individual 3D realms with their sheer power alone. Buu was going to destroy the Grand Kai's planet which was nearly universal in size, Goku has shook and even warped the afterlife when turning into a ssj3 multiple times, Gogeta in fusion reborn just from being created warped the entirety of hell, Buuhan's screaming was going to tear apart the entire universe 7 macrocosm, ect. GT Goku destroying a dimension in base means nothing because multiple characters have already done feats similar to this.
DBS Super Goku is universal to multiversal no one else keeps up with the DBZ scaling making what you are saying right now inconsistent by your logic the universal feat should not be anything crazy yet GT Goku is beating beings way stronger than Buu in base character-wise DBS goku is not doing anything to Goku unless he uses UI and even then UI Goku's form would just run out of stamina since both of them get similar hax if power amps were something crazy yeah sure DBS forms take it but character-wise with adding amps and hax no gt goku is dimensional which is above universal mui goku shakes the void which is not even dimensional still if you want to have a close mind and be simple about it dbs Goku claps I guess scaling wise no unless it is the forms.
3:52 Actually if you take this statement than that means that Super Baby 2 is actually as strong as the hypothetical Vegito ssj3 that goku thinks can’t take on beerus
10:02 You can take it even higher since the statement includes super Vegito which is an additional multiplier on top of that
Honestly, I think having fusion as AxB is broken cause think of it as Goku being 100, Vegeta being 99, MUI being 50 and UE being 51. AxB of Goku and Vegeta would be stronger than Goku x MUI or Vegeta x UE which is downright unreal. That would mean Vegito and Gogeta in DBS were already way beyond MUI and the upcoming UE Vegeta.
It is what it is. Although it is highly debatable in the community about just how big is the fusion multiplier. Some ways this could make sense is if we look at the growth of power of some of this characters. Super saiyan blue or god multipliers are very high and they themselves are debatable. But let's say super saiyan God is about as strong or stronger then a Hypothetical super saiyan vegito from battle of gods as goku said in the battle of god arc. Base vegito in the Daizenshuu is stated to be stronger then super saiyan 3. At a low ball let's say base vegito is over 400x stronger then goku's base. Then in super saiyan vegito is 20,000x. Assume that's the god multiplier for simplicity and low ball. Since super saiyan blue is 50x super saiyan God. Super saiyan blue should be 1,000,000x. Let us assume that goku in base is a 2 . Then in super saiyan blue he would be 2,000,000x. The super exciting guidebook says that it is AxB likely referring to base goku x base vegeta. Not some ssj goku times ssj vegeta. Even seth or many other scalers have explained it a lot better. Going by this multiplier base vegito would be 4. This is absolutely nonsense as with how the dbs portrays him he should many times higher then blue goku. But then again this could be that it is us assuming 1 in our powerscale. The multiplier really is supposed to be not a single fighter getting a set increase by a transformation. But literally magnifying his strength with almost his strength. Which would make base vegito so much stronger then blue goku and blue vegeta combined that it would be broken. Their are some theories saying how it might make sense. Also don't worry about the ultra instinct multiplier. Ultra instinct by all interpretations going by guides,scans and almost everything is literally implied to be above fusion. Atleast super saiyan blue level fusions. I mean even though dragon ball heroes isn't canon, it has atleast canon form multipliers. Goku and vegeta fuse and then vegito in super saiyan blue kaioken times 20( I know you might think i am yapping. But this is what happened.) That vegito peak power fights cumber. But vegito loses and defuses. Then goku literally goes ultra instinct and dominates cumber. Again absurd, messy and inconsistent. I know.☠☠☠
i think this was very clear from the beginning =)
but i'm confused about the part where "people think SS God is not as strong as fusions" and then proceed to list all the different reasons why fusions ARE indeed stronger than SS God
Pre SSJG Amp Fusion is inferior, but after the God Amp Fusion is superior because both fusees are much stronger.
@@yfr7759 yes, Goku felt the ki he couldn't feel and determined with complete clarity that the fusions were not stronger than Beerus
makes sense
Would have preferred to see golden frieza vs goku black
Super has ventured through multiversal feats, GT didn't. Nuff said.
Aren’t the movies also canon in GT? Should scale that accordingly too
Not really.
GT is suppose to be cannon to the original DBZ anime.
The only movies u could argue are cannon to Gt are Dead Zone and Coolers revenge due to the Garlic filler arc and Cooler’s brief cameo in the Super 17 arc
They are but people like to ignore that
People insist they are but they're really not lmfao. The movies have way too many contrasting stories and plot holes to fit them together in one cohesive timeline, let alone GT's timeline
they are but even if you ignore this scaling "Gt" Goku Outscales In Feats Since he is consistent with his dbz counterpart buuhan was going to rip open dimensions base gt goku is fighting beings more powerful then buu or even buuhan ssj4 goku on top of basically getting autododges would outscale and fodder rose form black goku not even close in terms of forms yes rose at base has a higher amp character-wise with there amps hell no
@@ashuraomega1000 it's true but he does not even need it to beat even base form super goku
bro didn’t even scale anything he just multiplied and didn’t even use gt’s best feats to make goku black look good..
F*ck power scaling. Ss4 is still the best dragon ball transformation. It has cool design and great lore behind it. All transformation in super only color swap lol
Facts
That’s all you GT fans say “it’s just a recolor” first of all Super Saiyan God has a nice lore behind it. And Ultra Instinct is actually based on a real life concept. And Ultra Instinct SLAMS Super Saiyan 4 that goofy hairy ape of a Form. And UI is way cooler than SSJ4 in my opinion anyway
@@Jakedasnake0426I agree that UI slams but Goku with a mullet goes kinda hard.
In your dreams
Great video!
Thank god you didn't GT glaze lol
Yeah he just glazed Super
@@furiousgamerxz5141You're just mad that GT's scaling pales in comparison to super.
@@siei3i37 nah I’m not mad, I’m used to people thinking that GT pales in comparison cause they didn’t pay attention when watching
@@furiousgamerxz5141 We did. It still doesn't compare.
@@siei3i37 clearly you didn’t since you believe GT doesn’t compare to Super, I don’t know if you just didn’t pay attention to GT or you believe the video which very clearly leaves things out and changes things when it comes to GT
GT redemption, we gotta carry it fr
I think all you would have to say, Is base form Goku black is as strong as if not stronger than an angel trained super Saiyan 2 Goku with God ki infused into base......... Which means he's already closed in the gap between him and Beerus. Thousands of times stronger than super Saiyan 4 at its peak
GT Goku wins because i said so and i am so based frfr 😮💀🗿
GT Goku outscales by Sugoroku space feat , this bros manipulation by outright claiming false things like " has quantifiable space and time " literally comparing to HTC is next level
@@humanman9920Not even remotely true. Nothing in GT compares to Super.
The only feat that DBS has is that Goku BoG feat which is arguably possible by the Buu Saga. Besides, Baby's Revenge Death Ball feat, Omega Shenron's Radiation Feat, Base GT Goku's Hell Feat, and Sugoroku space feat are all on the same level if not higher.
The gt scaling is buns 💀
Wait till you hear his take about how he thinks Buu Saga Vegito slams all of GT
@@fidelgames Crazy
Just like GT as a show
Even with your downplaying Manga Args, manga Goku Black slams.
The Manga just scales over the anime
@@IsaiahJones-rw1pc Fax
This is missing alot of scaling and he didnt debunk anything as he didnt mention anything to debunk except for the time argument *ill get back to that*
If we are going by feats and not multipliers then this is alot closer
People really hate the kid buu is stronger then buuhan argument because apparently "it dosent make any sense" *but a lotta powerscaling has weird logic in dragon ball especially in the og anime which is the one gt follows* but as he said Goku could be referring to either
But all goku needs to do to scale to BoG macrocosm feat is be able to surpass buu in base
If his super sayain 3 at the time scaled to a universe and he manages to be stronger then that
Then all that needs to be done is for him to surpass his current ssj3 in base which i believe i recall certain scales mentioning with Uub
Then that would make his siper sayain 3 that was stronger than a universal base being 400x a universe and him surpassing that in base would allow him to be 400x universal in base
He would then be abive macrocosm level as super goku would also continue to grow
Making both of them the same level of tier destruction
And thats if you dont take friezas statement about enough power to destroy the universe in the frieza saga seriously as then both versions of goku would have been macrocosm level a long time ago
But i thought id mention that
Also the suguroku space real tired of people downplaying that
He didnt destroy the game he destroyed that entire space time and it is stated that the river sanzu flows through there which is an afterlife in mythology that in the dragon ball universe would be separate to the normal afterlife but still likely be just like the river sanzu
As dragon balls mortal realm also takes direct inspiration from ours and is infinite
Im not super good at doing multiplier scaling so i dont know if what you saod was accurate or not
But both gokus far surpass their original vegito counterparts by an undetermined amount
As even in BoG we have no idea how close Goku actually got to beerus as beerus wasnt even doing his best at all
We both know their stronger than vegito
The daizenshu statement dosent hold any water because it can be interpreted so many ways and if you take it super literally it would flat out be wrong and contradict GTs own story itself
Thebother arguments make more sense
If it were a gt vegito *they use Z because there isn't a picture of GT vegiro* then of course it would be stronger
And if it were fusion itself
This might be controversial to say but fusion will always be stronger than the 2s individual parts and transformation multipliers because it can always scale to them through powering up
The fusion abilities are busted
Also for 100 years goku
That could be then forgetting or a better argument
Once again goes back to what i was saying
It is referring to GT gogeta as an entity not simply his shadow dragons counterpart
Because once again if 100 years goku fused with vegeta and went super sayain 4
Then shadow dragons gogeta would be wiped in an instant
There is literally no basis to say he didnt get stronger as that is literally Gokus goal in life and in GT vegeta trains to protect earth and has no reason to stop
Buuhan was only gonna destroy mortal universe not all of it , but statement about " Buu " applies to whichever character is Buu , the argument about which Buu it is meaningless , the statement is simply claiming a new character stronger than the past villain so it should be taken as that .
Sugoroku space feat outscales all of dbs Goku and this video like in general about other things as well , is misinformative.
this fight can actually happen in a different time line
As a gt meat rider, I will say that you’ve got some pretty acceptable scaling for gt, but the only I personally have a problem with is your suguroku space segment, I don’t understand where you got the idea that it’s not as impressive as people think. Suguroku space is outright stated to exist without the concept of space and time and exists between dimensions. It’s basically the exact same place as the world of void in dbs. And base gt goku one shots it while it took the strongest of the tournament of power to even sake it.
I dont think its as insane as people say because that same guide describes the time chamber the exact same way. And thats the size of a planet, and has a flow of time
@@Bruh-zu5pl the same description is given to the HBTC so not that impressive.
@@lonkstakes the time chamber is an example of a pocket dimension since it has a finite space, it’s it’s own dimension whereas Suguroku space exists between dimensions like the world of void. Yes while the guide gives it the same description, we can obviously see in z that that’s simply not the case, the guides are tricky and inconsistent as hell so I personally use dialogue or visuals from the show itself to make the arguments I make
To add onto what others have said, sugoroku space was already in the process of collapsing all on its own, so I’d argue that feat doesn’t actually scale.
@seawarrior954 That's not true. Only the game was collapsing. The gods of that realm wanted to keep Goku in there forever, so why would they make it collapse? Exactly makes no sense.
I dont neccecarily disagree, but I also think you still downplay GT Goku. "Baby is the soonest you can say GT passed Vegito" argument for example. Saying this is like saying "Trunks is ONLY Stronger then Teen Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 in the Black Arc, because that's what Goku compared him too when they fought."
Also while it's true that BABY ARC super saiyan 4 might have that level of power, the GT Perfect Files say that SSJ4 is "The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!"
This also ignores Goku beat Gohan and Goten as Super Saiyans in his base form, both of which FAR surpass Buuhan, meaning that base Goku should be stronger if not NEAR Vegito's power in base, let alone Super Baby Vegeta.
Wow the Super glazing in this video is CRAZY
Not really
He's not glazing Super, but he is downplaying GT
@@mist0804 to be fair I do actually kinda agree with his take that Super Baby 1 is the soonest a character in GT surpasses the power of Z Vegito
1 word from me is which gt goku are we talking about? Like kakarot/primitive gt goku/ssj4 or just gt kid goku or is it gt kid goku when he absorbed the dragon balls?
3:41 actually he is a lot stronger than this because he absorbed the energy of four Saiyans who were stronger than the four Super Saiyans that gave Goku energy in Battle of Gods that made him feel super strong but was only concerned about not feeling like a God when he was trying to become a God and surpass Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto.
Baby then proceeds to power up even more by absorbing the energy of everybody he is controlling which includes 17, 18, Z fighters, everybody on the lookout, and anybody else that is really strong or considered strong on that planet.
gt goku needs 0 cope feats not only is the movie scaling with gt goku and thanks to his instincts he basically has a pseudo UI which he won't need but for just gt goku "Gt" Goku Outscales In Feats Since he is consistent with his dbz counterpart buuhan was going to rip open dimensions base gt goku is fighting beings more powerful then buu or even buuhan ssj4 goku on top of basically getting autododges would outscale and fodder rose form black goku not even close in terms of forms yes rose at base has a higher amp character-wise with there amps hell no
Sorry but there are some things in this video I disagree with (no hard feelings).
1. 1:54 There is evidence that Goku got stronger in the "Super 17 Arc", base Gohan in the "Super 17 Arc" is shown to be somewhat on par with base Rild and base Goku was able to effortlessly defeat that same Gohan who was in his ssj 1 or 2 form back in the "Baby Arc". When ssj Goku was fighting super 17 he was surprised that non of is attacks did anything to him, keep in mind that Goku is well aware that 17 defeat everyone that crossed his path including Majuub who was strong enough to hold his own against Super Baby 2, thus telling us that ssj Goku at that time was stronger than Majuub.
2. 7:55 Goku didn't convert the ssj god ki into his regular base form ki, now I'm not saying that Goku didn't absorbed the power at all but base off of what I've seen in the anime and B.O.G film Goku didn't convert it into normal ki that mortals use but instead by absorbing the god ki Goku ended up gaining two pools of ki inside his body that being the god ki and his own ki. This makes sense given that in the anime when Goku said he didn't felt any changes in power and he was in his ssj1 form and if Goku really had converted the god ki into his regular ki then Goku would have either been in his ssj3 form since it's implying that he is still going all out at that point or Goku would have released that he's even stronger than before since he's only outputting 12.5% of his power. While yes the others can sense Goku's ki at that point their reaction to Goku's ki didn't imply that Goku got exponentially more powerful then he was before and while Beerus did answer Goku's question on the matter it was more like Beerus was giving an educational guess since prior to the answer Beerus was confused as to what was going with Goku and when Goku asked Beerus what was going on Beerus said "how should I know". So yeah Goku's regular base form didn't surpass the ssj god power he used against Beerus earlier on in the fight.
3. 10:13 false since Goku has long surpass Vegerot early on in GT since base Goku is stronger than Kid Buu who is way stronger than an in raged Buuhan who's vice shout barrier was so strong that Super Vegito had to use a lot more of his ssj1 form's power if not the full power of the form to break through it.
4. 10:30 There's a video from Broku that can explain why this part of the video is wrong so I recommend you check it out.
Link to the video
ua-cam.com/video/8Q-IZUSApnA/v-deo.htmlsi=BN_0-9o9cqQR91O2
Problem: Pure Boo is not stronger than Super Boo
@@2-bit567 in the manga probably, but the anime which GT & SUPER follows after is a completely different story (except for the SUPER manga).
@@jordandavilabrown294
No, it's been stated a few times that Boohan is the strongest.
@@2-bit567 false, it's been stated in the anime and some guidebooks that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.
@@jordandavilabrown294 alr now sorry but you're going in the section of the db fandom reserved for idiots
kid buu is only more dangerous, not stronger
End of gt goku has entered the chat
@@michaeljosiahwarren3350 Featless fodder.
He's featless lmao
SSJ4 Gogeta victim
Kefla victim
@@mishaamyousuf1834 kefla is too much
I know this is all for fun and games but how are there still people down in the comments that still believe anything GT comes close to anything Super? 💀
Because people don't know how to actually Powerscale Super. They overblow it and underrate DBGT.
Because u literally just watched a misinforming video that u liked the narrative of ? And people who actually watch the series before claiming sh*t exist ?
@@humanman9920 Indeed! 👊👊✊✊
goku black has access to regular super Saiyan; i think rose is moreso a blue or ssg counterpart, since black likens it to him (a God) controlling a saiyan's power
I have some...criticisms.
1) Goku absolutely scales to Omega, albeit at his ABSOLUTE STRONGEST (Ultimate Attack). Once he achieves Super Full Power Super Saiyan 4, he's able to use the Super Dragon Fist to overcome the 10x strength increase Syn Shenron got and totally blow him apart. The only reason why he doesn't win right there is because Omega has access to Rage Shenron's regenerative abilities, allowing him to come back from being literally splattered across the battlefield. Whilst this does mean his normal attacks don't scale, I do think this is worth noting.
2) GT Goku definitely increases in power. While the Super 17 moment is a bit shakey, I'll admit, there's other instances. Such as Goku needed a SSJ Kamehameha for Luud, but was facing the *stronger* Rildo in Base just fine. The same applies to fighters like Ledgic. Goku outright NEEDED SSJ to defeat him (and he trounced him handily), but Rildo was *stronger* than Ledric and Goku was fighting him in his Base form just fine. Whilst I won't claim it's a surefire 50x multiplier, it definitely means that Goku was getting more powerful as the series progressed. There are other minor things too-Such as Saiyan Tails, (Kid Goku outright states in OG Dragon Ball his power increased once he regained his tail) or Zenkai Boosts (passive amps in power from recovery, which we know exist in GT, because Goku literally uses one to become immune to Eis Shenron's abilities...without actually recovering. Somehow.) While I agree most of his increases simply aren't quantifiable, he necessarily does jump in power at multiple instances. (This is also not mentioning how the GT Perfect Files says Gohan didn't slack off, so you can directly use him as a measuring stick of power, too. Goku also states he wants to face Uub with "100% of my strength" in EoZ, and Vegeta says "You say that as if he's EVEN STRONGER THAN YOU," implying that even untrained Uub was about the level of Kid Buu).
3) You didn't really cover how the Z Anime's powerscaling directly feeds into GT. For example, you said that if we wanted to equalize feats, we'd be generously scaling GT Goku to Omega's Macrocosm Bust to his absolute strongest, whereas Base Super Goku was already above that. But this isn't true. If you scale off of Buu (which you fully give in this video), then Goku would upscale from Buuhan's Macrocosm Bust via his massively amped Vice Shout. Furthermore, Goku in Z gets massively more powerful thanks to Filler Tomfoolery. Like how he was at 1/100th his strength within Buu according to a guide, but was fighting an Ultimate Gohan "Just as strong as the Original" as a mere SSJ (or SSJ2). This also goes for films, as I believe certain ones are canon to GT. Wrath of the Dragon (Trunks has Tapion's Sword, Dragon Fist), Cooler (his cameo, Daizenshuu 7 Timeline), Dead Zone (Garlic Jr. Saga in Z, the return of the Sacred Water used to cure people in that Saga), and potentially Fusion Reborn (depending on how you interpret GT Perfect Files 2 saying that SSJ4 Gogeta is the same/evolved version of Fusion Reborn Gogeta, and which of the varying TLs is correct. It could just mean metacontextually, as a producer perspective, not canon, or it could be literal. I've also seen a TL on it simply saying that Gogeta first appeared in Fusion Reborn, and not explicitly connecting them. However, I am admittedly a bit biased on this one, as whilst Vegeta did know Fusion in the Original Manga, when they fail it the second round, Goku accuses Vegeta failing via his index finger-Which is how he failed in Fusion Reborn. An implicit reference. Also, in almost every arrow connecting images in the Files, it's meant to be literal, but I would freely understand if you didn't since the data is simply so vague.)
4) You also failed to account for various other factors. For example, while Black may be stronger, does his speed scale to GT Goku's? I mean, Black's best speed feat is likely being upscaled to the Macrocosm Bust. But Base Goku in Z was able to fly from Heaven to Hell in minutes. How do those compare? What about how GT Goku can absorb attacks from his enemies to gain further strength, like how he absorbed the Golden Oozaru Revenge Death Ball in FPSSJ4? (Which was so powerful it distorted the space-time of Kibitoshin's Kai Kai technique and dropped Goku into that Sugoroku Space.) Or how GT Goku's Zenkai's allow him to seemingly outright gain ability resistances, like Rage's Lightning, Oceanus' Whirlwind Spin, Eis' ice, etc. no longer being effective on him when used by Omega later.
This has been a pretty long comment, so my next one will be positives. Cont.
Cont.
While all of what I said I stand by, I will list positives/things I agreed with.
I definitely agree that GT Goku is much harder to quantify, and that his amps are hard to nail down in a way that doesn't limit him in some fashion. I think, overall, Black probably is the faster of the two. While you didn't mention it and left it implicit, from what I can nail down exactly, whilst GT Goku massively upscales from the Heaven to Hell travel feat by unimaginable numbers, I'm pretty sure the BoG shockwaves are faster. (My main criticism was you not bringing it up/comparing them directly). I firmly stand with your decision not to attempt to quantify the Change State, since we know nothing about it entirely outside of the fact it allowed GT Goku to tank attacks from Omega.
I also stand with your decision on Blutz Waves. While Bulma does blast Baby with Ultra Blutz Waves, it's only ever implied to amplify one's Saiyan Body to ACHIEVE levels of power via physiology, not actually boost power on it's own. For example, if Bulma blasted Baby with Blutz Waves one off from attaining Golden Oozaru, it's never implied that they would gain strength. The power increase solely comes from the forms they attain with those Blutz Waves. I will say that Blutz Waves do give some type of energy to Saiyans, though, as Bulma was able to *restore* Golden Oozaru Baby back to his former power with them.
Similarly, I always thought using Majuub as a means to gauge GT Goku's growth (the Super 17 moment specifically) was incredibly weird, since 17 was holding back. Now, how much he was is certainly up for debate. Also, I think it should be noted that while 17 was holding back, it wasn't signicantly so. None of the other fighters required their Ki to be absorbed at all, so Goku requiring it could imply a difference in strength. Not to mention he took full force attacks from everyone, but only Goku's punch sent him across the Earth. However, I still think it's overall very sketchy, and I'm glad you voiced that here.
Edit 2: I also like how you didn't use Sugoroku as a feat, because that statement is misinterpreted. While Goku definitely busts the dimension, the Timeless-Spaceless location is actually the Larger Subspace that CONTAINS those Dimensions (Smaller Subspaces), not the Dimensions in general. So it's totally unquantifiable outside of the fact Goku can affect space-time with Energy Blasts.
Overall, given how you definitely overlooked a lot of factors for GT, I don't think I can agree for your reasons, but I think Black would win nonetheless. Personally, due to the massive amount of upscaling GT Goku has compared to Black, I think he's stronger. But I believe Black's superior speed, hax abilities, and insane growth factor would result in, over time, him overcoming the gap and utterly beating GT Goku in battle.
P.S. One last thing I disagree with is not treating the Golden Oozarus between Goku and Baby as equivalent. They're the same form, and Golden Oozaru's description is applicable to all who attain it. Especially because it naturally leads into SSJ4, which is a Limit Breaker/Potential Unlock.
Edit: Also, I disagree with cross referencing Vegito's. BOG Goku was referring to DBZ Manga Vegito (as DBS, anime AND Manga, are sequels to the Original Manga). DBGT is the sequel to the Z-Anime. Meaning they simply AREN'T the same, and as such you cannot use them to debunk one another. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that guide was talking about the multiplier of Fusion itself against SSJ4, not Vegito's power specifically, though I admittedly don't speak JP and as such have to rely on the validity of Translations across the internet.
Edit 2: Also, Base Goku's power affects Yemma's office in Episode 43 of GT whilst he's in Hell, which is also a pretty significant feat, since it directly parallels/links into Fusion Reborn Goku doing it with SSJ3. Putting more support on the power increase Goku got, but also in how he upscales from everything prior, and in general is just a good feat to use regardless.
@@redreaper9622Sugoroku space scale and feat debunks this video , not the misinformation about it presented in this by outright false claims as it having quantifiable space and time , but the actual one .
I think it's dishonest to say that the god form multiplier is consistently as high as it was during the ritual. Broly was still being affected by Super Saiyan Vegeta's attacks when the latter became God and while he did toy with base Broly just by getting the oozaru amp Broly closed the gap. The Kefla point is still kinda valid, as Caulifla and Kale were about Goku's level in 2, yet her fusion dominated God form even in base. That's a point for fusion>. Though he was weakened to begin with so that's also on the table. So arguing Rosè is a higher amp than fusion is illogical, it's just Super Saiyan by like 5 guides. HE was stronger than Blue. Not the form.
Goku does scale to Omega. To some extent. The Dragon Fist was done by normal SS4, as we don't see that red energy from when he was powered up against Baby or Syn before. It's also kinda dumb to say they don't scale to his aura alone when Goku and Vegeta did stun him a few times with attacks.
Black stomps anyway though, just far higher scaling chain and growth.
The form can still be argued as high as it was during its initial use. Ikari Broly can just be argued to be far higher than a normal Oozaru amp.
@@yfr7759 With no evidence. Broly powered up after that amp, sure, but that's just Broly's growth, no evidence for a stronger form
yeah that’s fair
Except the fact that Sugoroku space simply outscales all of dbs Goku and black , and this video is overall dishonest , of course also specifically with the copium claims about sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time ( because i say so ) argument and comparing it to HTC.
@@humanman9920 So you have zero evidence at all. Well too bad
Suguro space exists in the macrocosm.
Why you gotta do SSJ4 Goku like that 😭. He’s being bullied worse than Trunks
he didn't do anything, he's just way weaker
Because fans love to hate on ssj4 even though Toei themselves the creators of GT and Super made him equal to blue
@@freezasama5802 SSJ4 ain’t equal to Blue. Heroes doesn’t count as those are different versions of Goku that are far stronger than their main and original counterparts. Xeno Goku has some god ki unlike his original GT counterpart as he went through the events of Battle of Gods. SSG has better feats than SSJ4
@@liammcguire1954 loser
@@liammcguire1954 incorrect
Watch out for the toieverse arguments lmao
I dont really think the movies take place within gt or super.
Well both super anime and GT arent canon so they are canon to the Toei verse so that's not a bad argument to make
@@freezasama5802 The toeiverse isn’t a real thing.
@@thelettucebarrel7784 yes it is
@@freezasama5802 No, it isn’t.
well said! amazing video
2:00 actually that would be true because 17 was just standing there while he was actually fighting goku. Even Gohan and his Kamehameha wave was expected to do something despite Oob being there. Then you have Vegeta who Powers up and was able to push 17 a little bit. This shows that in this moment he was above everybody else. Than Goku comes in and does far better than vegeta.
Kazi on his way to spread misinformation and shit takes about his favorite fursuit guy being outversal:
Deadass one of Kazi's arguments for Goku's growth was saying SECOND FORM FRIEZA is UNIVERSAL. Like. The ONE FROM NAMEK. Not only is that MASSIVELY incorrect but even if it was true, that ONLY makes Super outscale harder.
Who the hell is Kazi
@@gigawarman12 he's the guy spreading around the outerversal GT bullshit.
@@xeratovildan9871 okay then
Sorry but
Technically by said statements
Frieza could be that strong in his second form
It doesn't make sense but that's too damn bad bud
King Vegeta could wave away 3 planets in the same show on screen but Frieza throwing a punch doesn't blow away the entire solar system of namek
Dragon Ball characters can be strong enough to do something and not do it
Doesn't make sense but by your dumbass logic
Well
DBS and GT Goku are actually rock level because and their opponents get stopped by cliffs and the ground instead of shooting straight through them
Sometimes they get caught on them
And other times they go through them
Oh and Frieza is confident throwing big rocks will hurt his opponents
Dragon Ball is actually below rock level
Cant believe you guys can't get it through your heads 😺
Oh yeah by the way funny guy
Fursuit?
You a fake ass fan
You realize of dragon ball and Z is full of anthropomorphic animals
And the king is a damn dog
They get healing beans from a sleepy cat
And in Super most of the gods of destruction are animals
Like do you even watch dragon ball?
That's not even mentioning some of the contenders of the T.O.P
Unfortunately even if you gave Gt SSj4 gogeta then it still wouldnt be close
I could’ve made the video Gogeta, but Goku vs Goku is thematically better
SSJ4 Gogeta getting done in worse than Vegeta did when he first fought Black
🤣 Sure
No he's not he's about the same
@@Zenkai2718 idiot
Sugoroku space > Dbs Goku
So sjj4 wins
Just watch Saiyan Scholar's scale videos, you are way off