Looking at the board for microcontrollers... you do know there are ARM microcontrollers, right? With like 2MB of flash and 256k of RAM that can run GUI applications. Not all ARM processors have multiple cores and run at GHz speeds. Secondly, a lower speed is not necessarily a bad thing. Depends how much speed you need. You want to use a GPIO pin to turn something on and off? An ATMega8 running at 8MHz will be more than fast enough. For most applications 20MHz seems to be enough, since everyone uses Arduino these days, unfortunately. But with ARMs, if you need, you can get up to 200MHz. And since we're talking about ARM, they run on 3.3V and can interface with all those wireless modules directly. Sometimes they even have on chip USB and Ethernet controllers. How much convenient can it get? Also, if you program in C/C++ as opposed to assembly, the speed of the processor doesn't go down. I expected you guys to know this. Actually, the efficiency of the code goes down. And even that is debatable. Compilers are quite good, especially with C. The performance impact is minimal in most cases. I really find it sad that the community is still stuck with Arduino. It's great if you're learning, sure, but it's not the only platform out there. It's slow and it's limited in connectivity. And it's expensive compared to ARM boards. Just look up the Discovery series from ST. Or if you feel nostalgic about Arduino, the Nucleo series. It has Arduino compatible headers and the IDE feels like Arduino as well. Both of them are dirt cheap, costing around $10. You'll thank me later. /end_ARM_rant
Microcontrollers doesn't mean an old 8MHZ ATMEL arduino. now we have STM32F4 with 180MHZ and an ARM cortexM4 core. and also the NXP microcontrollers uses also ARM cortexM4 which frequency reach the 200MHZ. so you have to compare the ARM CortexM series for micronctrollers and the ARM CortexA CPU For mobile devices. The STM32F4 have a dedicate Ethernet controller, DMA, SDIO, CAN ..... and lot of other things
The plant rotating can be done using discrete logic, but you should stay away from 555. Start with a watch crystal and divide the frequency down to the time you need. For example use a watch crystal, a CD4060, and a CD4017, by chaining them dividing the clock down to to a frequency of about once per 8 minutes. You can trigger your circuit on that.
This is brilliant as I have often pondered this with the various ideas I've contemplated on when trying to figure out projects to do. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
ARM says nothing about the system being or not being a microcontroller, it only says something about the architecture. The ARM M0, M0+, M3, M4 are all microcontrollers. Also, microcontrollers can be way quicker than 16mhz. M3 and M4 systems are about tenfold of that.
I got the STM32f7. I think it's considered a micro-controller on a fast ARM chip. It runs at 200MHZ. I guess it must be somewhere between the average MCU and the Pi. IT starts up right away like an MCU and uses its own libraries. It's fast enough to keep speed in C. It can do a lot of Pi like stuff without too much trouble but is actually an MCU. It also comes with built-in Ethernet, etc...
Yes, ARMs are microcontrollers. So is the Raspberry Pi for that matter. He just put it at a higher level because it's easy to get an OS onto it (typically Linux). The OS can make getting into hardware a lot easier for a software engineer.
Ben, first I would like to thank you for all the amazing builds that you do, giving inspiration to the hobbyist community. In this video you mentioned a strength and weakness of the microcontroller is the libraries needed for the project. I was wondering, if at all possible, you could explain the process on how to make your own libraries for a project.
In many specialized tasks, a microcontroller and an FPGA working together would totally murder any general purpose CPU implementation (in regards of price, performance and power consumption), but working with FPGA's isn't exactly electronics 101 level stuff...
Very old post, but for those finding their way here ... Xilinx, which is one of (or may be) the biggest FPGA manufacturers out there does let you use their tools for free. There are limitations of course, but for a hobbiest not likely something you'd run into as the truely high density/high performance parts are extremely expensive. Digilent is a good source for Xilinx FPGA dev boards and PIC microcontroller boards. They even have dev boards of the XIlinx Zynq based FPGAs which have a dual-core ARM Cortex A9 inside them for about $200.
Fpga are programmed as application specific band not flexible like cpus that can do anything. Implementing a cpu in fpga is slower and more power consuming
Thanks Ben. Very, Very, Very Helpful video/overview for me. I've been pretty well out of touch with component level for several years. Just ordered a Raspberry Pi 3 and looking to integrate to CNC. Thanks
Now I gotta do a video explaining when to use certain mods and their advantages and disadvantages. Typically everyone throws an ME system down in techy mods even if it's not entirely necessary for the task at hand. There's always piping systems and barrels/DSUs/filing cabinets for item storage as well, some where it makes sense to integrate with an ME system and some where it doesn't.
Totally agree with learning discretes first. My first project I did was an electronic play panel for the kids cubby with a keypad, couple of joysticks etc. So I had a demultiplexer chip feeding ULN2803's for lights, etc, etc. Then found these things called Arduino's. Found I only needed a wire loom. Life became awesome :) Then started on a few MCU's and recently compiled Android to work with a specific touchscreen on an Odroid. Couldn't have done any of it without learning the basics.
I see SO many projects these days that are so much better suited for microcontrollers than the RPi, yet people still think the RPi is the way to go for whatever reason...
If all you are doing is putting together the project just to learn and you will take it apart later, then you should have both so you can see how it is different. For robotics and motion control in which timing is critical, it is useful to install a real time OS on the RPi rather than the default. I know what you mean though. For a digital camera that you want to turn on quickly, get a shot, then turn off, it is better to have the micro-controller than to have to boot up Linux then shut it down each time. But maybe installing a completely different OS will make the RPi faster to turn on and off.
Hey Ben. I have a broken laptop and i took it apart removing a lot of buttons. Can you please make a video on how I can program those keys as hot keys and use it on any other computer? This would be very helpful. thank you.
So what are FPGA:s good for in the scheme of things? Display control, PWM, communications, etc. control logic? I'm quite new to FPGAs and for me (even though I like them) I'm kinda starting to just call them "Field Programmable Graphics Adapters" ;D
All of that ... but what FPGAs excel at is performing parallel tasks. For example it can do all of those things independently and at the same time. But if you find yourself just making a big state machine, a processor can do that easier and cheaper. Think of something like an Ethernet Switch where it's just routing bits, LOTS of bits, on multiple ports. That's something an FPGA could do really well and a processor would fail at. Most consumer electronics will use an FPGA as a prototype/development platform and use the resulting HDL to create an ASIC which is vastly cheaper in a production environment.
Most do use ARMs, but for the software. The actual routing of the bits from port to port do not. On development platforms you'd find an FPGA, on production consumer units you'd probably find an ASIC which is much cheaper at scale.
thanks for enlightening me, it's always interesting to know the ins and outs on why certain tech is used by engineers. What about a DSP or DSC, it that just for analog processing? Perhaps that's what the WiFi component of wireless routers use. So much tech, but most people here just throw away the router when changing internet contract and get an identical new one unfortunately.
Now what about FPGAs? Since I get a multi-core MPU (e.g. quad ARM Cortex-A53 + quad A57), a reasonably good MCU (e.g. based on pAVR) and all required glue logic all in one chip. Or their smaller siblings, PLDs?
the question is to make a non-logical reasoning program inside a logic circuit. if you want to detect your dog with a micro controller, you don't need a camera. you can use a ldr or a ultrasonic transducer. you either measure distance as a image of the dog, or different brightnesses as the features of the dog and its presence. the chip, dont need to see the dog as an image, but can see it as a 2d line, either by distance or brightness. the number of variables needed for detecting the dog can proably be reduced to 6. there is a way to make a 3d image with a ultrasonic sensor by using two motors, by making the chip read the surrounding by turnning the sensor fourth and back or in a circle and then move it down in small steps. that could map a 3d image like a printer just like you do with a laser range finder. the same can be done with an ldr. the difference is that the ultrasonic sensor make the image by difference in distance but the ldr make an image by shades of gray and interprate distance by the width of a shade of gray using a counter until the shade of gray changes and the width of the shape of gray can vary in lenght based on the actual distance. the chip just need to tell apart distances by comparing lenghts. i think of working with the limitations of a chip rather than trying to find one that fits expectation. a small 8 bit microcontroller is enough for andvanced programming if you know how to save bits by limit the numbers of memoriable variables to a minimum. the microcontroller don't need to see the dog like we do to drive a meechanism. there is no reason why it need to see with a camera to do simple tasks like the dog. we could even use a sound sensor by only detecting key pitches as the dog and act there after, or use a range sensor to detected the dog passing by. a moveable eye would be important anyway as it does a better job at detecting objects. a microcontroller don't need to remeber anything other that what happens in the moment to do most tasks we think of as intelligent. we can use a sd card for extended memories of events and learning or a flash expansion chip. learning in a microcontroller chould be an extention, just as synthetic feelings. i actually found out that without a thinking algoritms, there was no way to integrate a emotion program as the emotion program needed a system that acted between inputs and outputs to function as could not work just by itself like i wanted it to work. emotions in a mcu is just a bunch of variables that reperesent expressions of feelings like different moods like sad and angry and many more. we only need one variable for each emotion and the increment or decrement the variable depend on the degree of volume or intensity of a emotion. for example angry, the higher the number the more mad it reacts but it can express many feelings at the same time but where one overpower the other. artifical feelings have to be interprated as mechanistic to be understood and not alive as they are only interaction routines made to alter the flavior of the executions of its thinking routines. i think that neural net is a wate of resoruces and time as it is just a cracking program just like a code lock decrypter but for natural things and its better to make a program learn by association based logic by combining many inputs superstiously and then write it as a memory on a external flash drive. most variables chould be recycled for other purposes by different routines. only some of them need to be permanent until data is written to external drive. accessing external memory will be done based on current active memores in the internal micro chip storage so what ever the computer remember in the present and act on inputs, it can only remeber from external drive information that is closely related to its internal memory. its like a simmilar to a simmilar to a simmilar data that is the process of artificial memory. you dont solve problems by using bigger computers. you solve them by makeing smarter code. its important that you can use one subroutine that can be used by many subroutines to reduce data size so one routine can borrow somthing from another. a really small micro controller will just be much dumber that a bigger one and mostly because of the diffeence in internal storage.
BTW. ARM (or MIPS) cpus take more space and often require external parts: RAM, program ROM, IO protection, sometimes they will require multiple external voltage sources. On the other hand they have often embeded peripherals like: usb, midi, etc. they also have huge computing power. *SO CHOOSE WISELY WHAT YOUR PROJECT NEEDS :D*
Ben, I think you should do a Teardown and exploration of the Razer Nabu. The new fitness band from Razer. They are currently in demand and can only be purchased by Razer Insider special orders but they should be coming out in the stores soon. It would be cool for you to decode the way the bands can sense each other and then with a high five swap facebook and twitter infos.
I disagree with your annotation at 6:40. Programming in assembly doesn't necessarily generate faster code than using a good optimizing compiler. Compilers are able to write out what, to a human, would be an absolute wreck of assembly code but minimizes the number of clock cycles necessary, while a human would write code that's at least partly readable at the expense of those extra clock cycles. In order to write better assembly code, you'd either have to know every detail about the chip you're working with, organize your code into something less than legible, or both.
Just for record: I am writing a kernel for the RPi that will work very similar to the arduino (other than that you have to put your code on SD card) but I am trying to make it as simple as possible :) hope it turns out good, and will be used. :)
Raspberry Pi: For when you're interfacing a bunch of things, displaying images, or communicating back and forth via ethernet/bluetooth/etc. Basically anything you want an actual computer to do. MCU: for when you're doing ONE task (could be a single complex thread) and maybe transmitting data over USB. Things start to get hairy when you try to do everything with them. Discreet logic: To help the RPI or MCU control some kind of output (eg. scrolling LED display) There are also FPGAs for complex tasks where things need to happen asynchronously. They're like Discreet logic on steroids. Custom ASICs are the same, but completely custom designed, WAY cheaper, and not programmable.
discrete logic can also be considered, for example, when one doesn't have enough GPIO pins do drive things directly. say, when using the RPi B+ and not having enough pins for all the I/O signals needed (say, for all the motor control signals and limit switches and similar, one may end up wanting to use some shift-registers or similar). well, and a lot of what I am doing requires using a lot of external electronics which the RPi is hooked into, such as boosting the outputs to more usable levels. say, the RPi is hooked into some low-power TO92 transistors (to get from low mA to higher mA), which in turn are hooked up to some power-transistors (to get from mA to several amps or more), for example MJE3055T or IRF540N or MJW18020 or similar, which are used for more of the work. as for using the RPi for real-time, it is kind of messy, but can be done. using an RPi + microcontrollers could be better (with the RPi dealing with high-level tasks and the MCUs dealing with motors and switches), but this adds some cost. well, and then there are PLCs, ..., but they are expensive...
What you said about discrete logic is basically what I was trying to say anyway. I agree with your assessment of the RPi for realtime applications. I recently used one to control a set of cameras and a couple stepper motors in order to take pictures of an object from a user-defined set of angles. The documentation was mostly me apologizing to the users for the messy implementation: "It works, but you have to do this procedure on boot, set the camera up like this, do the hokey pokey, and hold your tongue at this exact angle." That project was a nightmare of bad engineering. I forgot to mention PLCs. They're nice for control systems... but they tend to be restricted to industrial applications.
Falcrist in my case, I ended up using a custom scheduler (and also messing with OS scheduler priorities and similar) to get good timing latencies, but this basically eats the CPU and doesn't really play well with other stuff. but, yeah, much of this is for running steppers and BLDC motors and similar. I did develop a specialized VM which was plugged into the real-time scheduler, and is able to run code in time that would otherwise be spent in the delay loop, but as-is the implementation is a bit immature and code runs a fair bit slower than native (it is run in an interpreter). the language used by the compiler for the VM is (more or less) C. for PLCs, apart from size and cost, I guess it depends a lot on what one wants to build. for small portable electronics, probably not. but if it is a little larger and everything can be run at 24 volts or similar, probably a better fit. like, unlike with an RPi, there is less need to step up or step down the signals, say, because they are 24v and several amps can be pulled over the I/O pins. though, in my case, most of my stuff tends to operate at 12v.
Gordon Chin I did my time and I want out, so effusive Fate, it doesn't cut, the soul is not so vibrant The reckoning, the sickening Packaging, subversion, pseudo-sacrosanct, perversion
(14 minutes) The RasPi also has built in WIFI now. So you could setup a Tunnel, and, monitor that camera via anywhere. Or have a Server log screenshot every 30 sec, for instance ?
I have a question the raspberry pi is a lot more powerful than the original DS in terms of hardware. So is it possible to have 2 screens that output different things on the pi much like the DS? I haven't messed with one yet, but I assume it would be possible within the OS, right?
linux can handle multiple screen, keyboards and mouses, users so you can make it so it feels like 2 computers. However, X.org (the display server) only gets hardware acceleration for one screen. So video games must be on one screen. But you can try to tweak 2 screens to make Xorg believe that there is only one screen (you use some active adaptators, maybe matrox ones)
Jean r interesting! I have a linux machine with 2 screens myself, and it would always play games on the primary screen only. However, games I make in blender that I set to run in fullscreen mode run right in the middle, which makes half of the game camera visible from one screen, and the other half visible on the other. Maybe there is some code in the blenderplayer that makes it do what it does...?
To me, the biggest downside of using the Raspberry Pi in an electronics project is the need to power it down correctly to avoid SD card corruption. People expect to be able to flip a switch and immediately turn off a device. But the Raspberry Pi requires an orderly shutdown or else it may not boot the next time you power it on. With this is mind, the Raspberry Pi is less suitable for many headless electronics projects.
Hey Ben, i'm 17 years old and where i live at that age avery student must do a reserch project. I have done a calculator using arduino, lcd and membrane keypad. Its really cool but i would like to move on to soldering complex wiring and more cool stuff that isn't so limited and imobile. So i notice that the Arduino has this chip in the middle which im sure its a microcontroler. My question is, how do you move on from an Arduino that has already made software and pin connection to actual microcontrolers, 555 timers and stuff you do? I love your videos and i have had many inspiration for electonics and engeniering from you. Keep making awsome vids.
One friend of mine turned his raspberry pi into a gameboy/nes miniconsole which was pretty awesome, it was awesome to play oldschool pokemon and oldschool doom,zelda,super mario :)
A big problem of SD cards is that the flash memory used in them is of very low quality. Often a 8GB SD card contains a 64GB flash memory. But most of the flash is disabled because it's defective. This is also why SD cards with a lot of storage capacity are more expensive than smaller SD cards. Also a Raspi doesn't really write a lot to the SD card if you don't manually instruct it to do so. There is a tmpfs on /tmp that's used for almost all actions that require saving some data temporarily.
Well C compilers might decrease speed in while loops and parts like this, *BUT a good c compiler is better than bad ASM programmer* example: avrGcc will add an extra instruction in to a while loop even if it's empty. So each enpty loop will take 6 clk. But from what i saw when my friend was making similar program in ASM was complete horor. he made a mistake of moving data from pin register to Rn register and didn't used JLRQ (jump if lower or equal to 0) so that together took 10 clk.
I have to disagree in regards to the comparison of c and assembly: Most compilers are so well optimized that they convert c code way more efficient to machine code/assembly than a human can do. Sometimes it is more efficient to program in assembly, like in a driver for a video card, but this people really now what they do and they only code fragments in assembly and the rest still is coded in c. So for people who do not have written code in assembly for a very long time it does not rent any more, to learn it just for performance reasons. I'm sure experts will agree with me in that point, but that does not mean it wouldn't rent to learn the basics of assembly at all. I think it is a very good way to understand how microcontroller and cpus work. Maybe someone of the older, more expierienced people could share his opinion about the topic with us?
I really want to make a small Rpi computer. I'm not a electrotechnic expert. So something simple would be nice. What can i do with a rasberry? Can i conect a usb wifi adapter?
Given the lower power usage, higher power, and since recently lower price of ARM MCUs I really wouldn't bother with an Atmega or Pic anymore. And you can put off using an SBC until you really need one instead of using one not because you need the power but because an 8 bit few 10s of mhz device just can't cut it.
what about those mini pc that are available for 1/2 of the pi price and they have way more powerful cpu? example MK809? you can install linux on them and do tons of stuff with simple and cheap hardware interface. maybe some kind of project based on them here on TBHS?
I don't know where you are finding ones less than the £25 for a pi? Also it seems the 809 already runs Linux out of the box, albeit android. In still unsure where the gpio is tho.
£25 = $38US + taxes so for this by using pi you get 32bit with 512MB RAM around 500MHz and you can find MK809 for $30US on aliexpress (not 1/2 price but you can find earlier versions much cheaper and still way more powerful than pi b+) with 128bit 2GB RAM 1.2GHz QuadCore processor. as i said MK809 doesnt have GPIO but you can make external hardware for $10US that will have as much as you want IOs. anyway there is chinese clone as good as Raspberry PI called Banana PI cheaper too.
Yep I can see the attraction if both the mk809 and the banana pi, mostly because they are better but also the banana pi has sata and much more 'stuff' on board.
Alistair Mitchell the thing is i am such person who hate when a company and peoples promoting its devices puts additional price just for the brand and we all know that those devices are all made in china. i love how chinese peoples are smart and when you give them product to produce it for you they make clone of it and sell the same device with similar name cheaper :) brand charging works only in the first world countries but they loose customers from the third world countries (like mine) where there are more peoples interesting in DIY stuff because we have way lower income. we do more DIY and we learn more than using ready to use products. if i sit down and disassemble MK809 and learn how it works so i can use it in a project i will learn way more than any other person that is using Raspberry PI for example.
No I completely agree, many people knock Chinese clones and in some cases with good reason, but for the most part they are quality products at a fraction of the price. Of course this is not true for all users, but many users of the raspberry pi will never delve any deeper into the hardware or software side of it. They will most likely use it for the novelty of such an item, maybe a small server or a home theatre thing but that is not what it was aimed to be used for. Experimentation and exploration.
I'm still confuse about microcontroller, like what it actually is and how it works. Can someone explain that to me? and what language do we use to program them?
They're processors that also have peripherals built into them. Peripherals are things like UART, I2C, SPI, CAN, PWM, Timers, A/D, DAC, etc etc. Different chips will have a different selection built in depending on the application being targeted. Small ones are cheap, under a dollar or two, and big ones can be had for a couple bucks more. They're typically programmed in C. In the old days, they were programmed in Assembly, but compilers have improved enough these days to make that rarely necessary.
Oh wow !!!!!!! .. . . I Like the "Glue Logic" robot props on that !! I am sad I did not think of it first, LOL. BUT maybe I can make a slightly different one? I will ponder this.
Skype is smooth because it reduces quality with a slower connection to keep frames. Also, skype uses (a variant of) UDP which means it doesn't check that the image has been received so it can just spend all it's time sending images
What about my Intel Edison? What would you say is the best use for it? I'm thinking about making a R/C car controlled with a racing wheel over wifi, I've also thought about attaching a camera to it.. Anyway, I have a website where I log my project called edison-rc.se/ so check it out in the coming months if you're interested ;)
Ben - I've love to see you do a project using the new Spark Photon: www.spark.io/. This solves the problem you mention about microcontrollers being difficult to hook up to the internet. It seems like it would make it really easy to Internet-enable lots of things, especially with the cloud API they provide - even program via cloud/wifi.
MCU ´s are great but , it is even cooler to make a durable reliable circuits with discreet logic .. not for up to date engineers , but for tinkerers and freaks like me.. and you .. and the other guy... DISCREET LOGIC FTW!
Looking at the board for microcontrollers... you do know there are ARM microcontrollers, right? With like 2MB of flash and 256k of RAM that can run GUI applications. Not all ARM processors have multiple cores and run at GHz speeds.
Secondly, a lower speed is not necessarily a bad thing. Depends how much speed you need. You want to use a GPIO pin to turn something on and off? An ATMega8 running at 8MHz will be more than fast enough. For most applications 20MHz seems to be enough, since everyone uses Arduino these days, unfortunately. But with ARMs, if you need, you can get up to 200MHz.
And since we're talking about ARM, they run on 3.3V and can interface with all those wireless modules directly. Sometimes they even have on chip USB and Ethernet controllers. How much convenient can it get?
Also, if you program in C/C++ as opposed to assembly, the speed of the processor doesn't go down. I expected you guys to know this. Actually, the efficiency of the code goes down. And even that is debatable. Compilers are quite good, especially with C. The performance impact is minimal in most cases.
I really find it sad that the community is still stuck with Arduino. It's great if you're learning, sure, but it's not the only platform out there. It's slow and it's limited in connectivity. And it's expensive compared to ARM boards. Just look up the Discovery series from ST. Or if you feel nostalgic about Arduino, the Nucleo series. It has Arduino compatible headers and the IDE feels like Arduino as well. Both of them are dirt cheap, costing around $10. You'll thank me later.
/end_ARM_rant
Cristi Neagu if you get an official Arduino, it costs more than some models of the Raspberry Pi and has less features than any of the models.
Microcontrollers doesn't mean an old 8MHZ ATMEL arduino.
now we have STM32F4 with 180MHZ and an ARM cortexM4 core. and also the NXP microcontrollers uses also ARM cortexM4 which frequency reach the 200MHZ.
so you have to compare the ARM CortexM series for micronctrollers and the ARM CortexA CPU For mobile devices.
The STM32F4 have a dedicate Ethernet controller, DMA, SDIO, CAN ..... and lot of other things
TizanaMenYo
Z80 or bust (jk)
The plant rotating can be done using discrete logic, but you should stay away from 555. Start with a watch crystal and divide the frequency down to the time you need. For example use a watch crystal, a CD4060, and a CD4017, by chaining them dividing the clock down to to a frequency of about once per 8 minutes. You can trigger your circuit on that.
陈北宗 yeah 555s can be significantly inaccurate with longer delay times.
This is brilliant as I have often pondered this with the various ideas I've contemplated on when trying to figure out projects to do. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
ARM says nothing about the system being or not being a microcontroller, it only says something about the architecture. The ARM M0, M0+, M3, M4 are all microcontrollers. Also, microcontrollers can be way quicker than 16mhz. M3 and M4 systems are about tenfold of that.
I got the STM32f7. I think it's considered a micro-controller on a fast ARM chip. It runs at 200MHZ. I guess it must be somewhere between the average MCU and the Pi. IT starts up right away like an MCU and uses its own libraries. It's fast enough to keep speed in C. It can do a lot of Pi like stuff without too much trouble but is actually an MCU.
It also comes with built-in Ethernet, etc...
Yes, ARMs are microcontrollers. So is the Raspberry Pi for that matter. He just put it at a higher level because it's easy to get an OS onto it (typically Linux). The OS can make getting into hardware a lot easier for a software engineer.
Ben, first I would like to thank you for all the amazing builds that you do, giving inspiration to the hobbyist community. In this video you mentioned a strength and weakness of the microcontroller is the libraries needed for the project. I was wondering, if at all possible, you could explain the process on how to make your own libraries for a project.
In many specialized tasks, a microcontroller and an FPGA working together would totally murder any general purpose CPU implementation (in regards of price, performance and power consumption), but working with FPGA's isn't exactly electronics 101 level stuff...
yes FPGAs are cool. Making your own specialized hardware in software.
Karri Koivusalo Mikael Murstam
Very old post, but for those finding their way here ... Xilinx, which is one of (or may be) the biggest FPGA manufacturers out there does let you use their tools for free. There are limitations of course, but for a hobbiest not likely something you'd run into as the truely high density/high performance parts are extremely expensive. Digilent is a good source for Xilinx FPGA dev boards and PIC microcontroller boards. They even have dev boards of the XIlinx Zynq based FPGAs which have a dual-core ARM Cortex A9 inside them for about $200.
Fpga are programmed as application specific band not flexible like cpus that can do anything. Implementing a cpu in fpga is slower and more power consuming
Thanks Ben. Very, Very, Very Helpful video/overview for me. I've been pretty well out of touch with component level for several years.
Just ordered a Raspberry Pi 3 and looking to integrate to CNC.
Thanks
Hey Ben can you build a stereo from scratch?
Now I gotta do a video explaining when to use certain mods and their advantages and disadvantages. Typically everyone throws an ME system down in techy mods even if it's not entirely necessary for the task at hand. There's always piping systems and barrels/DSUs/filing cabinets for item storage as well, some where it makes sense to integrate with an ME system and some where it doesn't.
Totally agree with learning discretes first. My first project I did was an electronic play panel for the kids cubby with a keypad, couple of joysticks etc. So I had a demultiplexer chip feeding ULN2803's for lights, etc, etc. Then found these things called Arduino's. Found I only needed a wire loom. Life became awesome :) Then started on a few MCU's and recently compiled Android to work with a specific touchscreen on an Odroid. Couldn't have done any of it without learning the basics.
I see SO many projects these days that are so much better suited for microcontrollers than the RPi, yet people still think the RPi is the way to go for whatever reason...
If all you are doing is putting together the project just to learn and you will take it apart later, then you should have both so you can see how it is different. For robotics and motion control in which timing is critical, it is useful to install a real time OS on the RPi rather than the default. I know what you mean though. For a digital camera that you want to turn on quickly, get a shot, then turn off, it is better to have the micro-controller than to have to boot up Linux then shut it down each time. But maybe installing a completely different OS will make the RPi faster to turn on and off.
Hey Ben. I have a broken laptop and i took it apart removing a lot of buttons. Can you please make a video on how I can program those keys as hot keys and use it on any other computer? This would be very helpful. thank you.
So what are FPGA:s good for in the scheme of things? Display control, PWM, communications, etc. control logic?
I'm quite new to FPGAs and for me (even though I like them) I'm kinda starting to just call them "Field Programmable Graphics Adapters" ;D
All of that ... but what FPGAs excel at is performing parallel tasks. For example it can do all of those things independently and at the same time. But if you find yourself just making a big state machine, a processor can do that easier and cheaper. Think of something like an Ethernet Switch where it's just routing bits, LOTS of bits, on multiple ports. That's something an FPGA could do really well and a processor would fail at. Most consumer electronics will use an FPGA as a prototype/development platform and use the resulting HDL to create an ASIC which is vastly cheaper in a production environment.
djocapn but in reality don't routers just use ARM?
Most do use ARMs, but for the software. The actual routing of the bits from port to port do not. On development platforms you'd find an FPGA, on production consumer units you'd probably find an ASIC which is much cheaper at scale.
thanks for enlightening me, it's always interesting to know the ins and outs on why certain tech is used by engineers. What about a DSP or DSC, it that just for analog processing? Perhaps that's what the WiFi component of wireless routers use. So much tech, but most people here just throw away the router when changing internet contract and get an identical new one unfortunately.
Now what about FPGAs? Since I get a multi-core MPU (e.g. quad ARM Cortex-A53 + quad A57), a reasonably good MCU (e.g. based on pAVR) and all required glue logic all in one chip. Or their smaller siblings, PLDs?
the question is to make a non-logical reasoning program inside a logic circuit. if you want to detect your dog with a micro controller, you don't need a camera. you can use a ldr or a ultrasonic transducer. you either measure distance as a image of the dog, or different brightnesses as the features of the dog and its presence. the chip, dont need to see the dog as an image, but can see it as a 2d line, either by distance or brightness. the number of variables needed for detecting the dog can proably be reduced to 6. there is a way to make a 3d image with a ultrasonic sensor by using two motors, by making the chip read the surrounding by turnning the sensor fourth and back or in a circle and then move it down in small steps. that could map a 3d image like a printer just like you do with a laser range finder. the same can be done with an ldr. the difference is that the ultrasonic sensor make the image by difference in distance but the ldr make an image by shades of gray and interprate distance by the width of a shade of gray using a counter until the shade of gray changes and the width of the shape of gray can vary in lenght based on the actual distance. the chip just need to tell apart distances by comparing lenghts. i think of working with the limitations of a chip rather than trying to find one that fits expectation. a small 8 bit microcontroller is enough for andvanced programming if you know how to save bits by limit the numbers of memoriable variables to a minimum. the microcontroller don't need to see the dog like we do to drive a meechanism. there is no reason why it need to see with a camera to do simple tasks like the dog. we could even use a sound sensor by only detecting key pitches as the dog and act there after, or use a range sensor to detected the dog passing by. a moveable eye would be important anyway as it does a better job at detecting objects. a microcontroller don't need to remeber anything other that what happens in the moment to do most tasks we think of as intelligent. we can use a sd card for extended memories of events and learning or a flash expansion chip. learning in a microcontroller chould be an extention, just as synthetic feelings. i actually found out that without a thinking algoritms, there was no way to integrate a emotion program as the emotion program needed a system that acted between inputs and outputs to function as could not work just by itself like i wanted it to work. emotions in a mcu is just a bunch of variables that reperesent expressions of feelings like different moods like sad and angry and many more. we only need one variable for each emotion and the increment or decrement the variable depend on the degree of volume or intensity of a emotion. for example angry, the higher the number the more mad it reacts but it can express many feelings at the same time but where one overpower the other. artifical feelings have to be interprated as mechanistic to be understood and not alive as they are only interaction routines made to alter the flavior of the executions of its thinking routines. i think that neural net is a wate of resoruces and time as it is just a cracking program just like a code lock decrypter but for natural things and its better to make a program learn by association based logic by combining many inputs superstiously and then write it as a memory on a external flash drive. most variables chould be recycled for other purposes by different routines. only some of them need to be permanent until data is written to external drive. accessing external memory will be done based on current active memores in the internal micro chip storage so what ever the computer remember in the present and act on inputs, it can only remeber from external drive information that is closely related to its internal memory. its like a simmilar to a simmilar to a simmilar data that is the process of artificial memory. you dont solve problems by using bigger computers. you solve them by makeing smarter code. its important that you can use one subroutine that can be used by many subroutines to reduce data size so one routine can borrow somthing from another. a really small micro controller will just be much dumber that a bigger one and mostly because of the diffeence in internal storage.
BTW. ARM (or MIPS) cpus take more space and often require external parts: RAM, program ROM, IO protection, sometimes they will require multiple external voltage sources. On the other hand they have often embeded peripherals like: usb, midi, etc. they also have huge computing power.
*SO CHOOSE WISELY WHAT YOUR PROJECT NEEDS :D*
Ben, I think you should do a Teardown and exploration of the Razer Nabu. The new fitness band from Razer. They are currently in demand and can only be purchased by Razer Insider special orders but they should be coming out in the stores soon. It would be cool for you to decode the way the bands can sense each other and then with a high five swap facebook and twitter infos.
I disagree with your annotation at 6:40. Programming in assembly doesn't necessarily generate faster code than using a good optimizing compiler. Compilers are able to write out what, to a human, would be an absolute wreck of assembly code but minimizes the number of clock cycles necessary, while a human would write code that's at least partly readable at the expense of those extra clock cycles. In order to write better assembly code, you'd either have to know every detail about the chip you're working with, organize your code into something less than legible, or both.
Hey ben what books you recommend to get started in electronics ?? I would like to do some projects with my son he's 11 thanks
Just for record: I am writing a kernel for the RPi that will work very similar to the arduino (other than that you have to put your code on SD card) but I am trying to make it as simple as possible :) hope it turns out good, and will be used. :)
Nice Video. I wonder if you could do an episode on the Intel Galileo gen2 or Intel Edison boards?
Thanks.
Hey Ben, What about a FPGA?
Raspberry Pi: For when you're interfacing a bunch of things, displaying images, or communicating back and forth via ethernet/bluetooth/etc. Basically anything you want an actual computer to do.
MCU: for when you're doing ONE task (could be a single complex thread) and maybe transmitting data over USB. Things start to get hairy when you try to do everything with them.
Discreet logic: To help the RPI or MCU control some kind of output (eg. scrolling LED display)
There are also FPGAs for complex tasks where things need to happen asynchronously. They're like Discreet logic on steroids. Custom ASICs are the same, but completely custom designed, WAY cheaper, and not programmable.
discrete logic can also be considered, for example, when one doesn't have enough GPIO pins do drive things directly. say, when using the RPi B+ and not having enough pins for all the I/O signals needed (say, for all the motor control signals and limit switches and similar, one may end up wanting to use some shift-registers or similar).
well, and a lot of what I am doing requires using a lot of external electronics which the RPi is hooked into, such as boosting the outputs to more usable levels. say, the RPi is hooked into some low-power TO92 transistors (to get from low mA to higher mA), which in turn are hooked up to some power-transistors (to get from mA to several amps or more), for example MJE3055T or IRF540N or MJW18020 or similar, which are used for more of the work.
as for using the RPi for real-time, it is kind of messy, but can be done.
using an RPi + microcontrollers could be better (with the RPi dealing with high-level tasks and the MCUs dealing with motors and switches), but this adds some cost.
well, and then there are PLCs, ..., but they are expensive...
What you said about discrete logic is basically what I was trying to say anyway.
I agree with your assessment of the RPi for realtime applications. I recently used one to control a set of cameras and a couple stepper motors in order to take pictures of an object from a user-defined set of angles.
The documentation was mostly me apologizing to the users for the messy implementation: "It works, but you have to do this procedure on boot, set the camera up like this, do the hokey pokey, and hold your tongue at this exact angle." That project was a nightmare of bad engineering.
I forgot to mention PLCs. They're nice for control systems... but they tend to be restricted to industrial applications.
Falcrist
in my case, I ended up using a custom scheduler (and also messing with OS scheduler priorities and similar) to get good timing latencies, but this basically eats the CPU and doesn't really play well with other stuff.
but, yeah, much of this is for running steppers and BLDC motors and similar.
I did develop a specialized VM which was plugged into the real-time scheduler, and is able to run code in time that would otherwise be spent in the delay loop, but as-is the implementation is a bit immature and code runs a fair bit slower than native (it is run in an interpreter).
the language used by the compiler for the VM is (more or less) C.
for PLCs, apart from size and cost, I guess it depends a lot on what one wants to build.
for small portable electronics, probably not. but if it is a little larger and everything can be run at 24 volts or similar, probably a better fit.
like, unlike with an RPi, there is less need to step up or step down the signals, say, because they are 24v and several amps can be pulled over the I/O pins.
though, in my case, most of my stuff tends to operate at 12v.
Welcome to the 301+ club.
Wasssaaap!
Gordon Chin
Whoa, calm down 😂 haha
Gordon Chin I did my time and I want out, so effusive
Fate, it doesn't cut, the soul is not so vibrant
The reckoning, the sickening
Packaging, subversion, pseudo-sacrosanct, perversion
Is Alyson back yet?
When does one use an FPGA?
(14 minutes) The RasPi also has built in WIFI now. So you could setup a Tunnel, and, monitor that camera via anywhere. Or have a Server log screenshot every 30 sec, for instance ?
Why is Ben's name in the 'Special Thanks' section of the credits in Modern Warfare 2?
Another great video! Thanks.
I have a question
the raspberry pi is a lot more powerful than the original DS in terms of hardware. So is it possible to have 2 screens that output different things on the pi much like the DS? I haven't messed with one yet, but I assume it would be possible within the OS, right?
linux can handle multiple screen, keyboards and mouses, users so you can make it so it feels like 2 computers. However, X.org (the display server) only gets hardware acceleration for one screen. So video games must be on one screen.
But you can try to tweak 2 screens to make Xorg believe that there is only one screen (you use some active adaptators, maybe matrox ones)
Jean r interesting! I have a linux machine with 2 screens myself, and it would always play games on the primary screen only. However, games I make in blender that I set to run in fullscreen mode run right in the middle, which makes half of the game camera visible from one screen, and the other half visible on the other. Maybe there is some code in the blenderplayer that makes it do what it does...?
To me, the biggest downside of using the Raspberry Pi in an electronics project is the need to power it down correctly to avoid SD card corruption. People expect to be able to flip a switch and immediately turn off a device. But the Raspberry Pi requires an orderly shutdown or else it may not boot the next time you power it on. With this is mind, the Raspberry Pi is less suitable for many headless electronics projects.
Hey Ben, i'm 17 years old and where i live at that age avery student must do a reserch project. I have done a calculator using arduino, lcd and membrane keypad. Its really cool but i would like to move on to soldering complex wiring and more cool stuff that isn't so limited and imobile. So i notice that the Arduino has this chip in the middle which im sure its a microcontroler.
My question is, how do you move on from an Arduino that has already made software and pin connection to actual microcontrolers, 555 timers and stuff you do?
I love your videos and i have had many inspiration for electonics and engeniering from you. Keep making awsome vids.
One friend of mine turned his raspberry pi into a gameboy/nes miniconsole which was pretty awesome, it was awesome to play oldschool pokemon and oldschool doom,zelda,super mario :)
What about Part 4 of the Xbox One Portable? When's that coming?
A big problem of SD cards is that the flash memory used in them is of very low quality. Often a 8GB SD card contains a 64GB flash memory. But most of the flash is disabled because it's defective. This is also why SD cards with a lot of storage capacity are more expensive than smaller SD cards.
Also a Raspi doesn't really write a lot to the SD card if you don't manually instruct it to do so. There is a tmpfs on /tmp that's used for almost all actions that require saving some data temporarily.
Also power consumption. A Pi pulls 500+ mah. Microcontrollers more like 40ish mah.
What about BeagleBone Black?
Well C compilers might decrease speed in while loops and parts like this, *BUT a good c compiler is better than bad ASM programmer*
example:
avrGcc will add an extra instruction in to a while loop even if it's empty. So each enpty loop will take 6 clk. But from what i saw when my friend was making similar program in ASM was complete horor. he made a mistake of moving data from pin register to Rn register and didn't used JLRQ (jump if lower or equal to 0) so that together took 10 clk.
I have to disagree in regards to the comparison of c and assembly:
Most compilers are so well optimized that they convert c code way more efficient to machine code/assembly than a human can do.
Sometimes it is more efficient to program in assembly, like in a driver for a video card, but this people really now what they do and they only code fragments in assembly and the rest still is coded in c. So for people who do not have written code in assembly for a very long time it does not rent any more, to learn it just for performance reasons. I'm sure experts will agree with me in that point, but that does not mean it wouldn't rent to learn the basics of assembly at all. I think it is a very good way to understand how microcontroller and cpus work. Maybe someone of the older, more expierienced people could share his opinion about the topic with us?
How about a video about Rasberry Pi alternatives? I want to make digital binoculars and I don't want to use a Pi because I'm stubborn.
I really want to make a small Rpi computer. I'm not a electrotechnic expert. So something simple would be nice. What can i do with a rasberry? Can i conect a usb wifi adapter?
Great video Ben
Love the Show, Ben your great!!
Given the lower power usage, higher power, and since recently lower price of ARM MCUs I really wouldn't bother with an Atmega or Pic anymore. And you can put off using an SBC until you really need one instead of using one not because you need the power but because an 8 bit few 10s of mhz device just can't cut it.
what about those mini pc that are available for 1/2 of the pi price and they have way more powerful cpu? example MK809? you can install linux on them and do tons of stuff with simple and cheap hardware interface. maybe some kind of project based on them here on TBHS?
I don't know where you are finding ones less than the £25 for a pi? Also it seems the 809 already runs Linux out of the box, albeit android. In still unsure where the gpio is tho.
£25 = $38US + taxes so for this by using pi you get 32bit with 512MB RAM around 500MHz and you can find MK809 for $30US on aliexpress (not 1/2 price but you can find earlier versions much cheaper and still way more powerful than pi b+) with 128bit 2GB RAM 1.2GHz QuadCore processor. as i said MK809 doesnt have GPIO but you can make external hardware for $10US that will have as much as you want IOs. anyway there is chinese clone as good as Raspberry PI called Banana PI cheaper too.
Yep I can see the attraction if both the mk809 and the banana pi, mostly because they are better but also the banana pi has sata and much more 'stuff' on board.
Alistair Mitchell
the thing is i am such person who hate when a company and peoples promoting its devices puts additional price just for the brand and we all know that those devices are all made in china. i love how chinese peoples are smart and when you give them product to produce it for you they make clone of it and sell the same device with similar name cheaper :) brand charging works only in the first world countries but they loose customers from the third world countries (like mine) where there are more peoples interesting in DIY stuff because we have way lower income. we do more DIY and we learn more than using ready to use products. if i sit down and disassemble MK809 and learn how it works so i can use it in a project i will learn way more than any other person that is using Raspberry PI for example.
No I completely agree, many people knock Chinese clones and in some cases with good reason, but for the most part they are quality products at a fraction of the price. Of course this is not true for all users, but many users of the raspberry pi will never delve any deeper into the hardware or software side of it. They will most likely use it for the novelty of such an item, maybe a small server or a home theatre thing but that is not what it was aimed to be used for. Experimentation and exploration.
I'm still confuse about microcontroller, like what it actually is and how it works. Can someone explain that to me? and what language do we use to program them?
kenneth kumentas makershed shop seems to put ARM system into the microcontroller category
They're processors that also have peripherals built into them. Peripherals are things like UART, I2C, SPI, CAN, PWM, Timers, A/D, DAC, etc etc. Different chips will have a different selection built in depending on the application being targeted. Small ones are cheap, under a dollar or two, and big ones can be had for a couple bucks more. They're typically programmed in C. In the old days, they were programmed in Assembly, but compilers have improved enough these days to make that rarely necessary.
yeah, each project has an addapted "device", but I think a project with a weaker "device" is a more challenging and pleasurable project, right ?
Build a board from scratch that can run C.
Thanks very informative
Nice video Ben!
Oh wow !!!!!!! .. . . I Like the "Glue Logic" robot props on that !! I am sad I did not think of it first, LOL. BUT maybe I can make a slightly different one? I will ponder this.
Thanks Ben!!!
#42 viewer, always watching Ben's videos to learn new things.
Why web feeds so laggy like those on dog treats. Not just that but even professional cameras. Where as skype is smooth!
Wat
Skype is smooth because it reduces quality with a slower connection to keep frames. Also, skype uses (a variant of) UDP which means it doesn't check that the image has been received so it can just spend all it's time sending images
In general, web stuff is fairly unoptimized.
Hey ben! Build a tube amp :)
someone had us a UDOO? it is good?
Ben could you make a portable wii plz I really want to see one that good plz and thank you for reading
What about my Intel Edison? What would you say is the best use for it?
I'm thinking about making a R/C car controlled with a racing wheel over wifi, I've also thought about attaching a camera to it.. Anyway, I have a website where I log my project called edison-rc.se/ so check it out in the coming months if you're interested ;)
then what is an arduino
It's a microcontroller. A really, really, REALLY old one.
Blimey its a scope band with measurement contest time to take a breath
In "The Seeds of Doom" (1976) the plants rotate you!
in ref 4:40 keeping it discreet wqs just not logical... captain ;-o
hey ben what ever became of memory resister memory ,It was supposed to be the next big thing.
Can you build a raspberry pi cluster computer
already made. Kano team ran Crysis on 30 raspberries pi
Use the raspberry pi b+ for mAking a MP4 player
"1/2Meg program space", I wish. I'm happy to get 64K words.
Make your own gaming console. Maby a benstation or a benbox or What you want to call it
Linux has real time stuff off you need it. Probably requires special work though.
Mod a PS1 to play PS2 games.
Make a raspberry pi tablet
Ben Heck! build a portable Beaglebone Black video game console
Z80.
68000.
Yamaha.
(Put blue hedgehog 3moji here)
Ben - I've love to see you do a project using the new Spark Photon: www.spark.io/. This solves the problem you mention about microcontrollers being difficult to hook up to the internet. It seems like it would make it really easy to Internet-enable lots of things, especially with the cloud API they provide - even program via cloud/wifi.
i like your videos
make a ps4 and xbone tablet
the ultimate all in one consisting a ps4 and xbone in one tablet
u should have strengths, weaknesses, and note worthy
do playstation 4 portable.
Make a Xbox tv
i love arduino . it can do most projects
Cubietruck is much more better than a "berry pie"
Or if you are resource deprived, use the old *Eee* *PC* and use *Android*.
make l2andrlR2 on a psvita
You should make your own ps4 phone
MCU ´s are great but , it is even cooler to make a durable reliable circuits with discreet logic .. not for up to date engineers , but for tinkerers and freaks like me.. and you .. and the other guy...
DISCREET LOGIC FTW!
18th
I am the 20th viewer and the 1st commenter yay
Ok maybe not first commenter
First
Fifth