I almost dislocated my ring finger today, also I often get neck, shoulder, and back pains while playing the violinI also get violin hickeys all the time, although I’m already getting really good at it, ive been playing the violin for 7 months now, and I still get major pains so big thanks man!
I’ve actually got this request a lot! The problem is I’m not sure how to approach it. It would be different for each type of double stops! It would almost need a course. I’ll definitely give it more thought. If I could figure out how to make a video about double stops generally that’d be great.
Hi Murphy my main concern is my neck. When playing the violin it strains so much it hurts. And my left arm hurts to. I have lessons once a week but don’t have a violin so idk how to help it? Pls respond Ik it was 4 years ago 😭
Statins screw up muscles. How about that?. Im 71 and reducing statins x reduces muscles pain. PERIOD. This knowledge has come with age. Reduce statins , avoid pain and play better.
As an ancient for whom just about every movement in life causes some sort of ache, I certainly have developed trapezius muscle and left forearm and fingers pain. I sought out this video because I knew I saw something somewhere about pain and am glad it was you because your explanations are comprehensive, and solutions seem logical and doable. will try them. thank you so much.
I am 76 and practice about 2 hours every day. There is no way of becoming a performing artist. Recently I practiced too much and landed with impingement syndrome of the bowing arm shoulder. Just completed 5 days of physio with Ultrasound therapy. Unfortunately there is no "knowledgeable " tutor. Besides I can't afford even a professional player. I am much better and after 10 days of rest hope to start again.
Hi there, Ken here. I am a 64 year old retired professional concert level violist who was also a principle in several groups. I have also taught hundreds of kids and adults. I am also a composer, and at one time a cathedral choirmaster and organist. Yes, I was that busy! Anyway, in my life, I discovered that starting out on simple double-stops first, then scales makes a whole lot more sense. Why? Because double-stops train your ear and muscle memory to play IN TUNE! Otherwise, practicing scales (out of tune) is a waste of valuable time. One should practice the octave (0 - 3) first, then add the 4th finger (4 - 0) with above open string, then the 4 - 1 octave - string below. This "sets" the left hand for other double-stops. Next comes 1 - 4 in third position. Why? Because you can then check your first finger against the below open string. Then next comes the 1 - 4 in fourth position checking your first finger against the open string above. Understand the logic? In this way the player (violin and viola) leans not only to play in tune, but becomes familiar with four positions. Later the player should tackle the half-step octaves above the first finger in first position and below the first finger in third position. Then comes the scale in octaves! By now, the player has trained their ear to play scales IN TUNE! SIMPLE DOUBLE-STOPS SHOULD ALWAYS COME FIRST BEFORE SCALES. I am amazed that all these great teachers didn't start things off this way. Instead they stressed checking notes in double-stops as you play scales. Scales are for three things: 1 - velocity, 2 - for learning to play passages and patterns in a position and 3 - for shifting. I studied with MANY great teachers, conductors and musician from all over the world. Well Ken, what about finger independence? Both double-stop and scales cover that.
Even too much of a good thing, is bad and thus painful. All things in moderation folks; even learning! Going to a really good, Palmer Trained and Educated Graduate of the Palmer School and going to a really good Masseuse is a must. Proper exercising, stretching / stretches and nutrition is critical. Paganini was a loosey goosey guys.
Thanks for this. I’ve been practicing a little before getting a teacher. I know, a big no no but my forearm was hurting and you made me realize I’m pushing down too hard. It really shows how much I need a teacher.
Well, thanks for the try, but this does not solve it for me. Back in 2018, a wrist pain developed -- the side of the wrist below the little finger. The pain radiated below the palm of my hand and into the wrist area. Tried a physical therapist. Worthless. At 66, I guess my fiddling days are at rest in the treble clef.
Hi Tobiah, I undertook fixing my posture, I've always slouched which I attribute to reading as a kid and every day was chest day in my 20's. I didn't have the shoulder flexibility I needed and my shoulders have visibly shifted into a more correct posture, but the soft tissue hasn't followed and I can't practice with the violin out to the side at this time. Could you please make a video about what one can do while recovering from an injury? What can/should one study to make most effective use of the time? Would plucking be a beneficial exercise and how much? Thank you.
This is the best video of its kind, seriously. I watched it repeatedly and took notes; so much good info here. I've also read that the chin rest should be about a finger-width from your jaw when you look straight ahead... Even without a shoulder rest, and just a cloth to cushion my collarbone from the wood, I can't play with a chin rest at all, no matter how short it is. I know it's bad for the varnish but I've had a huge reduction in pain since removing the chin rest altogether.
Good morning Mr Murphy. Ypu can't imagine how I am gratefull for this video (painstakingly learning violing for a year and experiencing left arm pain in trapezes and deltoids)
I see you also play without SR so I wanted to ask you if you know any cure for wrist tension? I tried out nearly everything and I just can't figure out the causes of the wrist tension during normal playing. Do you have any ideas how to reduce tension there?
Good tips, thank you. My main concern is my left elbow, especially when fingering the G string the elbow feels like it's in a very unnatural position, the elbow ligaments feel like they are being rotated in a very tense way. Not good! Pulling the left hand to the right (not so far back towards the left shoulder) helps the elbow but, as far as I know, that is not recommended technique. Any comments please? Thanks! Regards.
Assuming you are in fist position, it’s likely you’ve either assumed or been taught that you have to bring the elbow further forward as you go to lower strings. This is not necessarily true. Yes, the elbow will move a bit forward as you move towards the lower strings, but it should be very minimal AND you should have the elbow following the hand, not lead it. Try this: place all 4 fingers on the A string, in the formation “whole-step whole-step half-step” starting from 1st finger (it doesn’t matter whether you start on B or b-flat). Don’t press the string down, just let the fingers sit there. The fingers, hand, and arm SHOULD be very comfortable in this position. If not then you’ve got bigger problems. Anyway, if this is comfortable, move each finger to the D string, one at a time, WITHOUT moving the arm or hand. Your fingers will be in a slightly elongated position, but that is fine. Now adjust the hand an arm just enough so the fingers are not so elongated. You’ll find you barely had to move your elbow. Do this whole process again but going to the G-string. Again you’ll find that, if you move the fingers first, the arm and elbow barely have to move. I hope this helps. It’s very hard to give advice through text and to completely understand what people are asking for, but from what I think your problem is this should help.
@@MurphyMusicAcademy Thanks for the reply! That's good info. I'm a beginner so I'll have to work through all of that but I'm sure it applies to what's bothering me.
There are different schools of thought about how to hold the violin. Since I found this guy, I've used my chin less, actually figured out how to drop my left shoulder, and play with lot less tension. I move between playing with no shoulder rest and with one. I usually can't play challenging or new material/techniques without the shoulder rest, which I feel is related to familiarity. With the shoulder rest, I use it more or less just for the feeling of stability and to keep the chinrest stable so I can hook my jaw when shifting, which is still very new to me. Experimentation is the best way to find out what works for us and I don't trust anyone who sounds like their way is the only way. I like playing without the shoulder rest because there's more natural movement of the violin that flows with what I'm doing, which has taught me things about bowing and given me a better all around feel of manipulating the violin.
Sometimes thumb pain can be a normal process, but you very well could be squeezing too hard. Experiment with how lightly you can get away with depressing the string and still get a good sound
Boy your so energetic.. I do appreciate your knowledge levels.. very good content.. but please consider maintaining smooth well controlled speed of your speech so the listener will feel comfortable to feed you knowledge into their minds.. because it's like running a marathon.. all the best buddy..
Since I'm predominantly Lefthanded, I find holding the violin in my right hand comes naturally, and my Left hand does all the technical aspects of bowing. What do you think about that? Though that is not considered normal.
In my 40+ years teaching experience, since everyone has 2 hands, and everything feels awkward when first starting out, and both hands have so much to learn to do, and everyone has some aspects which will feel “ok” at first and some that may feel awkward for years as they gradually progress on the instrument, start with the traditional setup. Do I win a prize for the longest sentence ever? 😁 There are several reasons: violins come set up for the violin to be held in the left hand. The order of the strings, the height & curvature of the bridge, the way the strings are wound onto the pegs for tuning, the way the chin rest tilts toward the tailpiece, etc. It takes a lot of time & effort at a luthier’s shop to reverse a violin setup. It is not a matter of just holding it on the other side. Since 95% of our intermediate to more advanced playing is done in groups, small or large, with others who have learned the internationally accepted traditional setup, everyone’s instruments will be generally be facing the same direction, and everyone’s bows will generally be going the same direction. It is safer for the instruments, safer for the players, and it honestly just looks better. It does not matter whether you are self taught or not. Many people don’t know what their talents, progress, interests, and opportunities will be over the years to come. Someone who starts out thinking they’re just doing it for themselves, for fun, could end up playing with a small group of friends for awhile, then end up playing with a fiddling group or a community orchestra in just a few years. It is MUCH, MUCH harder to unlearn something and then try to do it a completely different way, than to just do it the generally accepted way in the first place. You can find things on UA-cam & other places that support both sides of the debate. For me, as a violin teacher for decades, I say go with the flow. There can, of course, be modifications made to an instrument to accommodate physical handicaps, of course. In a rare instance, it might even involve converting the instrument to be played with right hand holding the violin. However, then it is done for a specific reason, not just because to a beginner, certain aspects of playing feel weird, or awkward, or even painful to do. Some lessons online or in person can show you how to play without pain. That’s my $2.00 worth. 🎻
Murphy Music Academy Murphy Music Academy I’ve just started playing without a shoulder rest, and so far it’s great 👍 But how do you tune your violin without a shoulder rest? I’m having hard time tuning the violin without it, especially because I still have 4 fine tuners.
Space Folk I let it rest on my literal shoulder, and it is ok if it sags down a bit. Your chin can hold onto the violin enough to get your hand up to the fine tuners. After a while you get used to it. Also, if you are switching from shoulder rest to non shoulder rest I’d suggest looking into pads. The function differently than rests as they don’t anchor the fiddle in one place and you will still have to hold the fiddle in your left hand to make it work, but can help fill out some space. While one can certainly learn to play with nothing extra on the violin, for those of us who started with a rest (this includes me) pads are either a great transitional option or just something you’ll keep doing. While I feel comfortable to demonstrate in lessons without a pad, if I’m doing a serious performance I still use one. My choice is a small folded towel under my shirt.
I almost dislocated my ring finger today, also I often get neck, shoulder, and back pains while playing the violinI also get violin hickeys all the time, although I’m already getting really good at it, ive been playing the violin for 7 months now, and I still get major pains so big thanks man!
How about a video on double stops...something like common pitfalls of double stops and how to avoid them. Great videos!
I’ve actually got this request a lot! The problem is I’m not sure how to approach it. It would be different for each type of double stops! It would almost need a course. I’ll definitely give it more thought. If I could figure out how to make a video about double stops generally that’d be great.
I can't avoid double stops.i always accidentally hit another string while playing
Hi Murphy my main concern is my neck. When playing the violin it strains so much it hurts. And my left arm hurts to. I have lessons once a week but don’t have a violin so idk how to help it?
Pls respond Ik it was 4 years ago 😭
Mr Murphy, I get the opposite pain. My deltoids (the lateral) are always on fire after lifting my violin for 10min.
Where I’m told the left elbow should be is painful.
Does violin hurt your finger like guitar?
not as much but yes
No
Yes it certainly can make sure callousus
If you’re a guitarist and violinist, then basically no.
Statins screw up muscles. How about that?. Im 71 and reducing statins x reduces muscles pain. PERIOD. This knowledge has come with age. Reduce statins , avoid pain and play better.
I refused to take statins for this reason. It's like they induced fibromyalgia!
As an ancient for whom just about every movement in life causes some sort of ache, I certainly have developed trapezius muscle and left forearm and fingers pain. I sought out this video because I knew I saw something somewhere about pain and am glad it was you because your explanations are comprehensive, and solutions seem logical and doable. will try them. thank you so much.
I am 76 and practice about 2 hours every day. There is no way of becoming a performing artist.
Recently I practiced too much and landed with impingement syndrome of the bowing arm shoulder.
Just completed 5 days of physio with
Ultrasound therapy.
Unfortunately there is no "knowledgeable " tutor. Besides I can't afford even a professional player.
I am much better and after 10 days of rest hope to start again.
a pullup bar is pretty great for becoming aware of your upper chest and back muscles, also a fun and great excerise.
Hi there, Ken here. I am a 64 year old retired professional concert level violist who was also a principle in several groups. I have also taught hundreds of kids and adults. I am also a composer, and at one time a cathedral choirmaster and organist. Yes, I was that busy! Anyway, in my life, I discovered that starting out on simple double-stops first, then scales makes a whole lot more sense. Why? Because double-stops train your ear and muscle memory to play IN TUNE! Otherwise, practicing scales (out of tune) is a waste of valuable time. One should practice the octave (0 - 3) first, then add the 4th finger (4 - 0) with above open string, then the 4 - 1 octave - string below. This "sets" the left hand for other double-stops. Next comes 1 - 4 in third position. Why? Because you can then check your first finger against the below open string. Then next comes the 1 - 4 in fourth position checking your first finger against the open string above. Understand the logic? In this way the player (violin and viola) leans not only to play in tune, but becomes familiar with four positions. Later the player should tackle the half-step octaves above the first finger in first position and below the first finger in third position. Then comes the scale in octaves! By now, the player has trained their ear to play scales IN TUNE! SIMPLE DOUBLE-STOPS SHOULD ALWAYS COME FIRST BEFORE SCALES. I am amazed that all these great teachers didn't start things off this way. Instead they stressed checking notes in double-stops as you play scales. Scales are for three things: 1 - velocity, 2 - for learning to play passages and patterns in a position and 3 - for shifting. I studied with MANY great teachers, conductors and musician from all over the world. Well Ken, what about finger independence? Both double-stop and scales cover that.
This video is about tension and pain
Thank you for this! My neck is killing me ! I hope this fixes it.
Even too much of a good thing, is bad and thus painful. All things in moderation folks; even learning! Going to a really good, Palmer Trained and Educated Graduate of the Palmer School and going to a really good Masseuse is a must. Proper exercising, stretching / stretches and nutrition is critical. Paganini was a loosey goosey guys.
My shoulders are on fire after an hour
Thanks for this. I’ve been practicing a little before getting a teacher. I know, a big no no but my forearm was hurting and you made me realize I’m pushing down too hard. It really shows how much I need a teacher.
Well, thanks for the try, but this does not solve it for me. Back in 2018, a wrist pain developed -- the side of the wrist below the little finger. The pain radiated below the palm of my hand and into the wrist area. Tried a physical therapist. Worthless. At 66, I guess my fiddling days are at rest in the treble clef.
Hi Tobiah, I undertook fixing my posture, I've always slouched which I attribute to reading as a kid and every day was chest day in my 20's. I didn't have the shoulder flexibility I needed and my shoulders have visibly shifted into a more correct posture, but the soft tissue hasn't followed and I can't practice with the violin out to the side at this time. Could you please make a video about what one can do while recovering from an injury? What can/should one study to make most effective use of the time? Would plucking be a beneficial exercise and how much? Thank you.
This is the best video of its kind, seriously. I watched it repeatedly and took notes; so much good info here. I've also read that the chin rest should be about a finger-width from your jaw when you look straight ahead... Even without a shoulder rest, and just a cloth to cushion my collarbone from the wood, I can't play with a chin rest at all, no matter how short it is. I know it's bad for the varnish but I've had a huge reduction in pain since removing the chin rest altogether.
Here’s something I learned from Alexander Technique. Don’t bear down on the bow, rather push up on the violin.
How does one relax the wrists?
Good morning Mr Murphy. Ypu can't imagine how I am gratefull for this video (painstakingly learning violing for a year and experiencing left arm pain in trapezes and deltoids)
You have very important information, please talk a little slower at times. Thanks
İ had to find out this video before my carpal tunnel
No problem with pain, I use a rest, it helps a lot. Pain of others who listen, that's another story
I feel pain in my left shoulder because it is getting tired of keeping the hole arm in that position. How can I fix it?
Ok I have serious tension and pain dang 😢
I see you also play without SR so I wanted to ask you if you know any cure for wrist tension? I tried out nearly everything and I just can't figure out the causes of the wrist tension during normal playing. Do you have any ideas how to reduce tension there?
Great video, as expected 👍
But how did you watch the whole thing that fast? 😆
@@MurphyMusicAcademy lol
sangat membantu ! matur suksma
Good tips, thank you. My main concern is my left elbow, especially when fingering the G string the elbow feels like it's in a very unnatural position, the elbow ligaments feel like they are being rotated in a very tense way. Not good! Pulling the left hand to the right (not so far back towards the left shoulder) helps the elbow but, as far as I know, that is not recommended technique. Any comments please? Thanks!
Regards.
Assuming you are in fist position, it’s likely you’ve either assumed or been taught that you have to bring the elbow further forward as you go to lower strings. This is not necessarily true. Yes, the elbow will move a bit forward as you move towards the lower strings, but it should be very minimal AND you should have the elbow following the hand, not lead it.
Try this: place all 4 fingers on the A string, in the formation “whole-step whole-step half-step” starting from 1st finger (it doesn’t matter whether you start on B or b-flat). Don’t press the string down, just let the fingers sit there. The fingers, hand, and arm SHOULD be very comfortable in this position. If not then you’ve got bigger problems.
Anyway, if this is comfortable, move each finger to the D string, one at a time, WITHOUT moving the arm or hand. Your fingers will be in a slightly elongated position, but that is fine. Now adjust the hand an arm just enough so the fingers are not so elongated. You’ll find you barely had to move your elbow. Do this whole process again but going to the G-string. Again you’ll find that, if you move the fingers first, the arm and elbow barely have to move.
I hope this helps. It’s very hard to give advice through text and to completely understand what people are asking for, but from what I think your problem is this should help.
@@MurphyMusicAcademy Thanks for the reply! That's good info. I'm a beginner so I'll have to work through all of that but I'm sure it applies to what's bothering me.
I am Confused. every other violinist who talks about how told violin that i have heard of tells you to primarily to hold the violin with the chin.
There are different schools of thought about how to hold the violin. Since I found this guy, I've used my chin less, actually figured out how to drop my left shoulder, and play with lot less tension. I move between playing with no shoulder rest and with one. I usually can't play challenging or new material/techniques without the shoulder rest, which I feel is related to familiarity. With the shoulder rest, I use it more or less just for the feeling of stability and to keep the chinrest stable so I can hook my jaw when shifting, which is still very new to me. Experimentation is the best way to find out what works for us and I don't trust anyone who sounds like their way is the only way. I like playing without the shoulder rest because there's more natural movement of the violin that flows with what I'm doing, which has taught me things about bowing and given me a better all around feel of manipulating the violin.
❤
My pain is in my hand between the thumb and index. Am I squeezing to hard or is it something I need to overcome and gain endurance
Sometimes thumb pain can be a normal process, but you very well could be squeezing too hard. Experiment with how lightly you can get away with depressing the string and still get a good sound
Boy your so energetic.. I do appreciate your knowledge levels.. very good content.. but please consider maintaining smooth well controlled speed of your speech so the listener will feel comfortable to feed you knowledge into their minds.. because it's like running a marathon.. all the best buddy..
If something is bothering you about others maybe You should work on You.
@@pluutoop yes u please do that.. don't come inbetween others..
Since I'm predominantly Lefthanded, I find holding the violin in my right hand comes naturally, and my Left hand does all the technical aspects of bowing. What do you think about that? Though that is not considered normal.
If it feels normal to you than it's normal.
Is a left handed accepted into orchestras?
In my 40+ years teaching experience, since everyone has 2 hands, and everything feels awkward when first starting out, and both hands have so much to learn to do, and everyone has some aspects which will feel “ok” at first and some that may feel awkward for years as they gradually progress on the instrument, start with the traditional setup.
Do I win a prize for the longest sentence ever? 😁
There are several reasons: violins come set up for the violin to be held in the left hand. The order of the strings, the height & curvature of the bridge, the way the strings are wound onto the pegs for tuning, the way the chin rest tilts toward the tailpiece, etc. It takes a lot of time & effort at a luthier’s shop to reverse a violin setup. It is not a matter of just holding it on the other side.
Since 95% of our intermediate to more advanced playing is done in groups, small or large, with others who have learned the internationally accepted traditional setup, everyone’s instruments will be generally be facing the same direction, and everyone’s bows will generally be going the same direction. It is safer for the instruments, safer for the players, and it honestly just looks better.
It does not matter whether you are self taught or not. Many people don’t know what their talents, progress, interests, and opportunities will be over the years to come. Someone who starts out thinking they’re just doing it for themselves, for fun, could end up playing with a small group of friends for awhile, then end up playing with a fiddling group or a community orchestra in just a few years. It is MUCH, MUCH harder to unlearn something and then try to do it a completely different way, than to just do it the generally accepted way in the first place.
You can find things on UA-cam & other places that support both sides of the debate. For me, as a violin teacher for decades, I say go with the flow.
There can, of course, be modifications made to an instrument to accommodate physical handicaps, of course. In a rare instance, it might even involve converting the instrument to be played with right hand holding the violin. However, then it is done for a specific reason, not just because to a beginner, certain aspects of playing feel weird, or awkward, or even painful to do. Some lessons online or in person can show you how to play without pain.
That’s my $2.00 worth. 🎻
Nice! Could you make a video on how to memorize the score?
I could do some strategies to help memorization, but the whole “it’s a muscle that gets stronger as you use it” is kind of true
Murphy Music Academy Murphy Music Academy I’ve just started playing without a shoulder rest, and so far it’s great 👍 But how do you tune your violin without a shoulder rest? I’m having hard time tuning the violin without it, especially because I still have 4 fine tuners.
Space Folk I let it rest on my literal shoulder, and it is ok if it sags down a bit. Your chin can hold onto the violin enough to get your hand up to the fine tuners. After a while you get used to it. Also, if you are switching from shoulder rest to non shoulder rest I’d suggest looking into pads. The function differently than rests as they don’t anchor the fiddle in one place and you will still have to hold the fiddle in your left hand to make it work, but can help fill out some space. While one can certainly learn to play with nothing extra on the violin, for those of us who started with a rest (this includes me) pads are either a great transitional option or just something you’ll keep doing. While I feel comfortable to demonstrate in lessons without a pad, if I’m doing a serious performance I still use one. My choice is a small folded towel under my shirt.
Murphy Music Academy Thank you 🙏
Cut the crap in the beginning and this is a great video