Thank you so much for the beginning of this video! I grew up in a verbally, emotionally, and sometimes physically abusive family, particularly a narcissistic abusive father. 8 years ago, i cut ties with my family as they tried to destroy me and my eternal marriage. It was such a hard choice to make and I've been told by so many members that I needed to repair family ties and forgive my dad because I was missing out on having him part of my life. I told my dad that if he worked to change and be better then I would happily welcome him back in to my life. 8 years later and he hasn't made a change at all and still blames me and mostly my husband for "letting Satan in to destroy the family", his words exactly. Elder Hollands talk that was quoted here brought so much peace to my heart. We also personally experienced prosperity after we cut ties as well.
Thank you brother Bytheway for mentioning that when the resurrected Savior came to this continent he came to the remaining righteous not just the Nephites. Being a Lamanite this means alot to me. When we meet the Savior, the color of my skin will not matter.
I like think that skin darkness oof lamanites refers to the darkness that covers each one of us as we depart/ obey the teachings of Jesus Christ, the inner/ outer darkness, instead of just “my skin”. Love your lessons. Thank you.
I usually listen to the podcast while driving or doing housework. I did that the first time through, but then I chose to go through a second time, following along in my scriptures. Wow! That gave me so much more understanding. I love seeing the covenant connection through all of these chapters,
These lessons are amazing. Thank you Dr. Jan for teaching us so much. I’ve always struggled with the skin of darkness thing. I just put it up on my shelf hoping someday to have more clarity on it. Since I joined the church back in 1981, I’ve had a shelf full of unknowns that have slowly but surely come off that shelf, and my questions have been answered. What a shame if would have been to discount the whole restoration because of some things that I did not yet understand.
So glad the doctrine relative to the “curse” has been better explained in recent years. As the only Hispanic child in my 8 yr old SS class in 1968 in Mesa AZ, when the lesson was on this story in 2nd nephi, I was the object used to teach that concept. Granted, my teacher was an 80 year old gentleman but to explain the mark that came upon the Lamanites, he said something to the effect of “so the lamanites were cursed with a skin of darkness” and pointing directly at me, That’s why her skin is BROWN!” Pretty sure up until that point, I never saw myself as any different from my classmates. All I knew was that I was the one who the teacher depended on to give him all the right answers when no one else would. So yeah, it’s pretty safe to say that concept has been misunderstood by a lot of people in the church over the years.
Wow no kidding! I'm so sorry that happened to you. I always find it really weird when people take that interpretation considering that Nephi and his people would not be considered "white". We have this weird view of whiteness and blackness now through eugenics and caste teaching that is so different to how people on Nephi's time would have viewed it, since they didn't have those centuries of history attached to these ideas. And that results in them saying and doing hurtful things 😥
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that I, the vassal, must wait upon the suzerain for answers or direction and I fear that, in the case of mental illness, we may have to wait the entirety of this mortal life. It is heart wrenching, as parents, to see a child/children suffer with this horrible disease. May God grant us the faith to actively endure the wait as we live after the manner of happiness.
Wow! What a wonderful discussion of the Covenant and skin of blackness. I always enjoy the podcasts which Dr. Martin is on. She is insightful and articulate. .
I am eighty and have read the Book of Mormon many times. I do the Come Follow Me program each week. I have never received a testimony of it one way or the other. Perhaps this will be the year. I have been with you for four years and really enjoy you Hank and John with your guest. Thank you very much.
Perhaps, because you have read it so many times, you already have a testimony of it. Some people feel warmth in their hearts, some people "hear" a thought, or feel a prompting, but sometimes it just feels right or makes sense and that is all we can go on, AND then for others, we have to first take the leap of faith before receiving the testimony (I think that is how it is for most people). 80 or 8 years old, its a daily journey; everyday, we have to make effort to seek truth and convert ourselves.
Thank you! I loved the discussion on the blessings and the curse, and the covenant focus and lens. I feel truly blessed and happy to deepen my knowledge of these doctrines and principles. Loved your insights, your feelings, your humor and your testimonies. Love from Portugal ❤❤.
The fact that Lehi promised blessings to the children of Laman and Lemuel tells me he did not discriminate. I am sure he is thrilled that many of his decendents have accepted the gospel - as Heavenly Father is as well. He wants all his children to return home to him😊
Thank you for an insightful and careful way to read about skin of blackness, Dr. Martin! Thank you Hank and John! I look forward to listening and learning with you guys and the scholars each week. Thank you for your time!
I loved this discussion! It brought things that were unclear into such focus for me. Thank you Dr. Martin, Hank and John, for the opportunities you give us each week to expand our knowledge and grow in the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Thank you so much for the covenant focus of this episode. It is so powerful! I love learning about the suzerainty style of covenants. After describing to my husband the covenant process Nephi went through to arrive at confidence and joy, he made the observation that it like the pattern of prayer Jesus taught and that we use today. I wonder if that isn’t coincidental! What a blessing! Thank you to Dr. Martin!
Thank you so much for your knowledge and wisdom of these truths of the Book of Mormon . Dr Jan Martin thank you , I have been truly feast in the scriptures .
Love this show! I teach the 9 & 10 year olds in Primary. They are a wonderful group of kids. I have found I need to learn about the topics of the lessons to be able to teach my kids. I use this podcast along with a couple of other podcasts to be able to prepare a good lesson. Thanks for all you do to help me.
Thank you for this podcast and the episode. My family has recently been split just like Nephi’s. This was a great reminder of the Lord’s covenant. I love that there were reminders of patience as we give things up to the Lord.
Thank you! The comments regarding the possible interpretations of the Lamanites' "skin of blackness" were particularly helpful, and I appreciated the reminder not to teach that as the curse or even a sign of the curse. Really helpful!
I TRUELY love and learn from your scripture discussions. I feel a (hopefully obvious) need to clarify the discussion on tattoos for today's day. The idea of tattoo's being a way for one to separate themselves from followers of Christ (or Nephi) MAY have been the case back then, but should NEVER be assumed to be the case today. Lead with love, and if there is other intent from the person (with tattoos), let them define it. Never assume you know someone's personal relationship with Christ. I loved Jon and Hank's comments right after that whole segment. I enjoyed the whole discussion on covenants!
Thank you for giving anyone who chooses an opportunity to come closer to Christ through the scriptures. I love learning and being taught by the Spirit. This time with you gives me exactly that. Oh how we all need it. It is sweet above all that is sweet. It is true. Thank you. Thank you.
Wow, this episode was so painful and enlightening. I sure loved it for that fact that it helped me make some sense of my own difficult upbringing and there was so much to connect on. I loved hearing Dr. Martin's insights and knowledge. I'm speechless, just wow, felt like a personal journey for me processing and still processing emotions that came up. However painful, I was so uplifted by the discussion and testimonies shared.
This podcast is such a great resource and blessing to so many of us. The guests that you have are so insightful and truly professional, scholars in deed. Thank you truly!
Thank you all for teaching me so many things that I didn't know about the Book Of Mormon! I love looking at it from a focus of our covents. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and thoughts on it this way! Thank you for providing me with more proof and information to know that this is the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!
Another good episode! We need to be careful in changing the order of scriptures, especially The Book of Mormon, because of who translated it, and by what authority. Thank you, Hank and John, always.
I would like to offer another explanation for the discussion of black skin. I believe that there were many people at this time throughout the world with black skin. Verse 21 says very specifically that the Lord caused a skin of blackness to come upon them (not that they made their own skin black through tattoos, animal hides, etc). Is it not possible that this was a very specific action, for a very limited group of people who simply needed to be separated from each other at this time? The Lord can use whatever methods He wants to use at any given time or place. As was mentioned, the black skin became irrelevant later in the Book of Mormon when righteous Lamanites and unrighteous Nephites mingled. Also, as was mentioned, the cursing was that they were separated from His presence. We may be trying too hard to explain this event in a culturally-appropriate context (and possibly for good reason, given events over the past couple hundred years).
I learned in an institute class many years ago that the cursing that came upon Laman and Lemual was that they were losing the Spirit of the Lord and that the dark skin was simply the mark. By repentance all of this could be rectified. I appreciate what I have been taught by Sister Martin to give me added understanding of all of this. The LAW of the Lord is to love everyone as He does. We must never judge others by their differences. We are all God's children.
I absolutely love these podcasts! My understanding is growing so much and I am so grateful for that. This week left me a little bit confused about the sign of the curse. In my studying I found myself reading excerpts from Joseph Fielding Smith, and he directly said the dark skin was a sign of the curse. I just want to make sure I am understanding thus correctly!! Any clarification would be so appreciated :)
I heard it said Happiness is a mater happenings which causes people to seek the things that the world tells us bring happiness, I like to substitute the word Peace for happiness because the only source of peace comes from God and Jesus Christ, no substitutes.
Great podcast. Really enjoy Dr. Martin as a guest speaker. She is super and so knowledgeable. I have a question: Isn't the American Indian of the Lamanite descendants ? They have dark and beautiful skin. Looks very natural; no tattoos or any thing that resembles what was spoken of this week. How do we explain their skin color? Thx
I wondered that too, but then I remembered that the Israelites (all the tribes), had mixed and intermixed DNA. Even Jesus didn't have a pure Judaic bloodline. I think that perhaps Lehi's and Ishmael's families already had a beautiful mix of DNA in their lines and perhaps there was light and dark skin already amongst them. And just another thought, the Cherokee have very light skin while other tribes have darker skin. Also, I believe that not all of America's Indigenous population come from Lehi's family. Just a thought...
First, I would say that "among the principle ancestors of" leaves room for others, and second, between the end of the BoM and the arrival of Columbus is about a thousand years. I also want to note that the BoM writers never mention the Lamanites getting differences in hair, facial features, etc., just skin and behaviors.
Wondering! Dr Martin mentioned that race was not an issue until more recently. In Numbers 12:1-5 Miriam was smitten because she was critical of her brother Moses who married an Ethiopian woman. Aren’t Ethiopians black?
I don’t find a reference to Sariah’s death. If she were alive at this time … I can not imagine her sorrow & pain having to choose between staying with Laman & Lemuel and their families or going with Nephi and his families and those that chose to separate.
The introduced new thoughts regarding “curse” is wonderful. But, there are also issues where we have to be concerned in latter days on importance of chg for secular concerns/message being more important than Gods doctrine or warping God’s law so as not to offend mortals. Same with all is well vs use of repentance to make well.
Teaching people to stay and forgive and forgive when they are being abused is enabling the abuse. Better to teach- no one deserves to be lied to, insulted, or controlled. Our marriages would be more celestial if this is what was taught. 💕 I personally think Nephi did not leave until after his father died because it would have been too difficult on Lehi to travel at that point, not because he needed to continue to give laman and Lemuel more chances to throw him in the ocean.
I have experienced the very uncomfortable situation of setting a firm boundary with a neighbor who approached me for months whenever his wife wasn't around (also found out I wasn't the only single woman he was doing this to). I tried my best to avoid him; but when he did approach me, I would hardly be civil to him in hopes of discouraging his unwanted attentions. One time he approached me when a friend was with me and she, knowing nothing about this situation, told me 'when his wife dies, he will be on your doorstep'...ummm NO thank you. When I finally had to just outright tell him to leave me alone, he was deeply 'offended' and stomped away. Oh and did I mention this guy has a drone??? I do prayerfully seek to forgive him, but that will not include being friendly towards him nor having anything to do with him. And his wife still doesn't know what he's been doing. Now he lurks around when he can, but doesn't approach me.
Thank you for spending so much time breaking down the “skin of blackness” issue. That was super interesting! I do have one question though. If the concept of defining people by skin color wasn’t introduced until later in history then how can we also use the verse about “male and female, black and white, bond and free” to suggest that Nephi was inclusive of skin colors?
And since Joseph also found the sword of Laban we can assume he took that too:) which is a really cool bittersweet scene to envision. I’m sure he remembered the moment he got it. And also maybe thought about Moses and their exodus from Egypt
i get that there are many ways of "interpreting" scriptures, but sometimes it feels like we try too hard to put words into Gods mouth in order to pacify our own weak sensibilities.
I think we need to stop interpreting the Book of Mormon using our modern day culture. I think ancient peoples had much different opinions than we do today and that’s fine. We accept it as it is. Early church leaders had different attitudes towards race than we do today and we accept it. We don’t condemn it. We need to move on from getting riddled by anything that offends our modern day idea of racial equality. Racial equality is a very modern idea as from the last 60 years or so.
Last 60 years? The Civil war was all about slavery and the fact blacks were lesser. We do condemn some of the ideas of early church leaders regarding race. Some clearly false things have been said. The church has done a great job to move on from it but there are some troubling things that have been said and this verse has been used to justify some of those incorrect ideas
As a lifelong member of 70+ years, I am extremely dismayed by the black skin issue. My feeling is that by re-interpreting the black skin language in 2 Nephi by speculating that black skin may be a metaphorical concept, or to suggest that black skin could be referring to a tattoo (Logistically, would all the Lamanites get a tattoo? how would that even work?) or that the Lamanites were distinguished by dark clothes is ridiculous. Modern day prophets, the apostles, seers, and revelators, and the entire body of the church were unified in the concept that dark skin was such a heinous curse blacks were ineligible to hold the priesthood. How else can we interpret this scripture with the entire church practicing, embracing and validating the black and white standard until 1978?
The curse is not black skin. The curse is being separated from Gods presence. I don’t see anywhere in 2nd Nephi where it says “the curse was black skin” But yes I mostly agree with your take that we have a troubled past with regards to blacks and it’s a tough issue to reconcile.
@@arynnelson371 Try 2 Nephi 5: 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
@@clintsudweeksmusic8816 yes have read it so many times. The hardening of the hearts and losing the spirit is the curse. I can see how others would interpret it that way but I feel very confident in how I read it
Another way to look at the separation of Nephi and his brothers as covanental is to remember that all covenants are a separation and a healing. The separation is crucial so that there CAN be a covenant. Just so, the healing is also necessary. It is where Christ's atonement comes into play.
From LDS prophet, Prophet Brigham Young (1801-1877): When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the priesthood and of coming into the Kingdom of God and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity
I would be careful in our day and culture and time to equate pain or hurt with wrong doing. I have seen our day when pain and hurt has been used as a weapon to gain victimization status and use it to vilify another. I love Hank and his equating reproving another as dynamite. Most of the time I am hurt or offended and am tempted to equate it with verbal abuse, I know I have much pride and humility helps me to curb the lure to equate my initial pain with abuse. I wonder through time if abuse, especially “verbal” or “emotional” would be the same across time and cultures and ages. Physical abuse is much more clear.
Although I have usually enjoyed your podcasts, I lost some respect for it with this podcast. I agree that dark and loathsome can be any race and that we need to discuss this scripture with care and consideration for the feelings of others. I also agree that the dark skin was not the curse. However, 2 Nephi 5:21 reads "...the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." That is pretty straight forward. It does not say that they tattooed themselves, or that they wore dark animal skins. Let's treat each other with kindness and respect, let's acknowledge that every race has "good and bad", and let's be grateful that God loves all of his children and desires for all to enter into covenants with him; but let us not act as if God should be censored for what He has done in the name of being politically correct.
I wonder about this idea that has come to me, slavery was a difficult subject that came to a head in the Civil War, we have finally delt with it by putting down a heavy foot and saying outright - no more! Perhaps I have just been one of those who, though, as a child, never felt right about it, actually never had anything to say to people who were so sure that they were right about it. Which brings me to the point. People were in a rage about this topic of race for a very long time. It brought about abuse of all kinds and even murder. Any one who objected was automatically considered wrong and never listened to. There come a time when people who object seem to need to be still and Know that God is God and can do His own work 🙏 Until then, you don't have anything else to say - only your own feelings. Could it be that the time had finally come for all men in the Church who were worthy to receive The Presthood ? It is interesting to me that no one seemed to object at that time. Where as they may have before then. Was it just time. Did it have to do with safety. We aren't given more than we can bear. And if you remember how happy so many people were at the time - many were clamoring and even in an uproar - a complete reversal - as I saw it. There was no more death threat. ❤😊
I am confused. If racism didn’t exist then why did Nephi distinguish between black and white, bond and free, male and female…2 Nephi 26:33. I love the Book of Mormon and this type of thing does not diminish that or my testimony of it. I am just wondering about that. I thoroughly enjoy these podcasts. You do an awesome job.
Veil of darkness, heart of darkness, darkness of mind and intent, spiritual darkness, marking skin, and wearing skins of darkness... Are all things that Nephi chose not to say. My niece, who we are adopting, is a very dark skinned daughter of Lehi, with a good and beautiful heart, as well as very beautiful physical features. And the heart is what God looks at: this is what makes us delightsome to God, or not. We are making this very hard, because we are afraid of racism. God is not racist, he lives all of his children. Nephi was not racist, these were his brethren and kin whom he loved. God put a physical mark to help people physically discern and not intermarry, for spiritual (not ethnic) purposes. If your heart is good, thatvis what matters. Your skin color does not matter. Delight in how God made you. Delight in the grace we all receive through Christ, and that we are all brothers and sisters, regardless of inherited physical traits.
I quickly want to point out that the description of race and prejudice based on color was used long before the 16 hundreds. Ancient writings from the classical period display judgement based on pigmentation, as well. And so do writings from Nordic people long before the middle ages. Also, the Egyptian identified people based on skin tone as well. Judging people based on skin tone is not actually a new phenomenon. Other than that, I love everything you guys are saying and this is a great video. I just wanted to point out that the idea that people didn't judge others based on skin tone until the 1600s, (or I've even heard from some not until the 1800s,) is a myth people keep repeating because it sounds nicer than the reality. Reality is humans have been judging each other based on these differences for a long time. Anyway. Done rambling. Great video. This is all.
Not always. It’s important to help family members who for emotional health and physical safety must step away from other family members. Enduring does not mean continuing in a manner of abuse. There is evil in this world and for some evil can be found within family units; abuse of parents from their children or child; sibling to sibling etc -the Book of Mormon has examples of this found in a fallen people in this mortal world. Separation doesn’t mean loss of love. It can also mean life and survival.
Look at the Celtic peoples of Scotland and Wales, were called celtic by the antient Romans of the Roman Empire in England, pictures of dark and light people meeting in a fresco in the building atop a pyramid in mexico City. Also Welch is similar to' Reformed Egyptian' according to some Welch Anthropology at BYU. The Tahiti people are possibly descend from the Nephites and Laminate so 'Tatooing' maybe the skin of darkness in the Laminites coloring their own skin and dressing less.
How can the skin of blackness be self-inflicted, by tattooing or by wearing black clothing, when it says that "the Lord God DID CAUSE a skin of blackness to come upon them."? I feel that if you are to deal with this scripture in an intellectually honest way, you really should have mentioned the difficulty with this phrase. It should have been addressed. I can hear from your tone that you have not achieved an A-HA moment on this subject. If you think you have then please explain how you reconcile this phrase.
I’m sorry, but this is kind of ridiculous the way you’re trying to explain away what is printed right there for everyone to see. God did change the color of the skin of the Lamanites. It wasn’t something they did to themselves like through a tattoo or something. God did it, and he did it to distinguish them from his covenant people. He did the same thing in other eras and areas throughout history to keep his covenant people from mixing their seed with those who were not covenant people. Can we just call it what it is? I mean after all, there really are people in this world with different skin colors. Who do you think made that happen if we are all descended from Adam and Eve? The answer is God did it. He made it happen. However, just because he did that, does not mean that anyone no matter what color they are cannot enjoy the blessings of the gospel and of salvation/exaltation. It was a different time then, and that’s the way God wanted it then. But now, in our time, things are different, we have a global population and the priesthood is no longer kept to a certain group in a certain area, but is available to all worthy males. This is part of the Latter day blessings. Never in history has the priesthood been available to all worthy males. This time is unique. We should rejoice in this fact and learn to love everyone and not judge anyone. It is part of our challenge in this day and age, to realize that in the past certain blessings of the gospel were only given to certain people and withheld from others, but now is the time to gather in everyone. God new this would be part of the challenges we would face in our day, which is why we now reject racism. But let’s stop pretending that the way things are now is how they have always been. There was a time when God forbid intermarrying between certain groups of people and he made their skins different colors so the people could distinguish such. But, that is not how it is today. This is how we should be teaching this, rather than try to apply today’s culture on past people. We should be teaching that just because it was a certain way in other times, does not mean it’s that way now.
Thank you so much for the beginning of this video! I grew up in a verbally, emotionally, and sometimes physically abusive family, particularly a narcissistic abusive father. 8 years ago, i cut ties with my family as they tried to destroy me and my eternal marriage. It was such a hard choice to make and I've been told by so many members that I needed to repair family ties and forgive my dad because I was missing out on having him part of my life. I told my dad that if he worked to change and be better then I would happily welcome him back in to my life. 8 years later and he hasn't made a change at all and still blames me and mostly my husband for "letting Satan in to destroy the family", his words exactly. Elder Hollands talk that was quoted here brought so much peace to my heart. We also personally experienced prosperity after we cut ties as well.
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Thank you brother Bytheway for mentioning that when the resurrected Savior came to this continent he came to the remaining righteous not just the Nephites. Being a Lamanite this means alot to me. When we meet the Savior, the color of my skin will not matter.
It’s the light in our eyes, whether it’s light or darkness
If you're a Lamanite, you are a descendant of Lehi which is pretty awesome!
I like think that skin darkness oof lamanites refers to the darkness that covers each one of us as we depart/ obey the teachings of Jesus Christ, the inner/ outer darkness, instead of just “my skin”. Love your lessons. Thank you.
I usually listen to the podcast while driving or doing housework. I did that the first time through, but then I chose to go through a second time, following along in my scriptures. Wow! That gave me so much more understanding. I love seeing the covenant connection through all of these chapters,
These lessons are amazing. Thank you Dr. Jan for teaching us so much. I’ve always struggled with the skin of darkness thing. I just put it up on my shelf hoping someday to have more clarity on it.
Since I joined the church back in 1981, I’ve had a shelf full of unknowns that have slowly but surely come off that shelf, and my questions have been answered.
What a shame if would have been to discount the whole restoration because of some things that I did not yet understand.
So glad the doctrine relative to the “curse” has been better explained in recent years. As the only Hispanic child in my 8 yr old SS class in 1968 in Mesa AZ, when the lesson was on this story in 2nd nephi, I was the object used to teach that concept.
Granted, my teacher was an 80 year old gentleman but to explain the mark that came upon the Lamanites, he said something to the effect of “so the lamanites were cursed with a skin of darkness” and pointing directly at me, That’s why her skin is BROWN!”
Pretty sure up until that point, I never saw myself as any different from my classmates. All I knew was that I was the one who the teacher depended on to give him all the right answers when no one else would. So yeah, it’s pretty safe to say that concept has been misunderstood by a lot of people in the church over the years.
Wow no kidding! I'm so sorry that happened to you. I always find it really weird when people take that interpretation considering that Nephi and his people would not be considered "white". We have this weird view of whiteness and blackness now through eugenics and caste teaching that is so different to how people on Nephi's time would have viewed it, since they didn't have those centuries of history attached to these ideas. And that results in them saying and doing hurtful things 😥
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that I, the vassal, must wait upon the suzerain for answers or direction and I fear that, in the case of mental illness, we may have to wait the entirety of this mortal life. It is heart wrenching, as parents, to see a child/children suffer with this horrible disease. May God grant us the faith to actively endure the wait as we live after the manner of happiness.
Wow! What a wonderful discussion of the Covenant and skin of blackness. I always enjoy the podcasts which Dr. Martin is on. She is insightful and articulate. .
I am eighty and have read the Book of Mormon many times. I do the Come Follow Me program each week. I have never received a testimony of it one way or the other. Perhaps this will be the year. I have been with you for four years and really enjoy you Hank and John with your guest. Thank you very much.
Perhaps, because you have read it so many times, you already have a testimony of it. Some people feel warmth in their hearts, some people "hear" a thought, or feel a prompting, but sometimes it just feels right or makes sense and that is all we can go on, AND then for others, we have to first take the leap of faith before receiving the testimony (I think that is how it is for most people). 80 or 8 years old, its a daily journey; everyday, we have to make effort to seek truth and convert ourselves.
Thank you! I loved the discussion on the blessings and the curse, and the covenant focus and lens. I feel truly blessed and happy to deepen my knowledge of these doctrines and principles. Loved your insights, your feelings, your humor and your testimonies. Love from Portugal ❤❤.
The fact that Lehi promised blessings to the children of Laman and Lemuel tells me he did not discriminate. I am sure he is thrilled that many of his decendents have accepted the gospel - as Heavenly Father is as well. He wants all his children to return home to him😊
So much of this weeks teachings were so helpful to me. Thank you so much.
Thank you for an insightful and careful way to read about skin of blackness, Dr. Martin! Thank you Hank and John! I look forward to listening and learning with you guys and the scholars each week. Thank you for your time!
I loved this discussion! It brought things that were unclear into such focus for me. Thank you Dr. Martin, Hank and John, for the opportunities you give us each week to expand our knowledge and grow in the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Thank you so much for the covenant focus of this episode. It is so powerful! I love learning about the suzerainty style of covenants. After describing to my husband the covenant process Nephi went through to arrive at confidence and joy, he made the observation that it like the pattern of prayer Jesus taught and that we use today. I wonder if that isn’t coincidental! What a blessing! Thank you to Dr. Martin!
Thank you so much for your knowledge and wisdom of these truths of the Book of Mormon . Dr Jan Martin thank you , I have been truly feast in the scriptures .
Love this show! I teach the 9 & 10 year olds in Primary. They are a wonderful group of kids. I have found I need to learn about the topics of the lessons to be able to teach my kids. I use this podcast along with a couple of other podcasts to be able to prepare a good lesson. Thanks for all you do to help me.
Thank you for this podcast and the episode. My family has recently been split just like Nephi’s. This was a great reminder of the Lord’s covenant. I love that there were reminders of patience as we give things up to the Lord.
Thank you! The comments regarding the possible interpretations of the Lamanites' "skin of blackness" were particularly helpful, and I appreciated the reminder not to teach that as the curse or even a sign of the curse. Really helpful!
awesome episode!
I TRUELY love and learn from your scripture discussions. I feel a (hopefully obvious) need to clarify the discussion on tattoos for today's day. The idea of tattoo's being a way for one to separate themselves from followers of Christ (or Nephi) MAY have been the case back then, but should NEVER be assumed to be the case today. Lead with love, and if there is other intent from the person (with tattoos), let them define it. Never assume you know someone's personal relationship with Christ. I loved Jon and Hank's comments right after that whole segment. I enjoyed the whole discussion on covenants!
Hermoso! Beautiful!
Insightful and informative. I enjoyed this episode very much, thank you!
Thank you for talking about boundaries. I think it is a very important topic.❤
It was a blessing to spend time with you 3! Thank you!
Always love your podcast. My husband and I make watching it the first thing we do on Sunday mornings. ❤❤
Thank you for giving anyone who chooses an opportunity to come closer to Christ through the scriptures. I love learning and being taught by the Spirit. This time with you gives me exactly that. Oh how we all need it. It is sweet above all that is sweet. It is true. Thank you. Thank you.
Wow, this episode was so painful and enlightening. I sure loved it for that fact that it helped me make some sense of my own difficult upbringing and there was so much to connect on. I loved hearing Dr. Martin's insights and knowledge. I'm speechless, just wow, felt like a personal journey for me processing and still processing emotions that came up. However painful, I was so uplifted by the discussion and testimonies shared.
This podcast is such a huge blessing in my life. I am humbled every week by the insights and Spirit it gives me. Thank you!
This podcast is such a great resource and blessing to so many of us. The guests that you have are so insightful and truly professional, scholars in deed. Thank you truly!
Thank you for all you do.
I love the idea of sharing possible options and explanations. I listened twice to more deeply remember the options. Thank you!
I love the insights that you and your guests to help understand the scriptures better! Thank you.
We have been taught very well. I really appreciate this clear instruction.
Thanks for the insights on the skin of blackness. That clarified some of my ongoing thoughts, giving me increased possibilities to consider.
Thank you all for teaching me so many things that I didn't know about the Book Of Mormon! I love looking at it from a focus of our covents. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and thoughts on it this way! Thank you for providing me with more proof and information to know that this is the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!
Thank you for all of the guests that you have. It sure has and continues to help me better understand the Book of Mormon...I again THANK YOU..
I especially loved the idea’s presentation on skin tone. Thanks so much
Wonderful! Thank you! ❤🇨🇦
This has been so enlightening! Thank you for sharing this 🙏 I am learning so much🙂💕
Amazing New perspectives on the Color issue!!!!
Wow! What an amazing focus on Christ and our covenants with Him. Thank you, thank you!
Another good episode! We need to be careful in changing the order of scriptures, especially The Book of Mormon, because of who translated it, and by what authority. Thank you, Hank and John, always.
Thank you very much😍👏
I’ve studied a lot about the “skin of blackness.” I would love the articles Dr Martin mentioned about this topic!
Thank you all l can see the Book of Mormon as my favorite
Love the explanations here!
I would like to offer another explanation for the discussion of black skin. I believe that there were many people at this time throughout the world with black skin. Verse 21 says very specifically that the Lord caused a skin of blackness to come upon them (not that they made their own skin black through tattoos, animal hides, etc). Is it not possible that this was a very specific action, for a very limited group of people who simply needed to be separated from each other at this time? The Lord can use whatever methods He wants to use at any given time or place. As was mentioned, the black skin became irrelevant later in the Book of Mormon when righteous Lamanites and unrighteous Nephites mingled. Also, as was mentioned, the cursing was that they were separated from His presence. We may be trying too hard to explain this event in a culturally-appropriate context (and possibly for good reason, given events over the past couple hundred years).
I learned in an institute class many years ago that the cursing that came upon Laman and Lemual was that they were losing the Spirit of the Lord and that the dark skin was simply the mark. By repentance all of this could be rectified. I appreciate what I have been taught by Sister Martin to give me added understanding of all of this. The LAW of the Lord is to love everyone as He does. We must never judge others by their differences. We are all God's children.
Thank you Dr. Martin!
I absolutely love these podcasts! My understanding is growing so much and I am so grateful for that. This week left me a little bit confused about the sign of the curse. In my studying I found myself reading excerpts from Joseph Fielding Smith, and he directly said the dark skin was a sign of the curse. I just want to make sure I am understanding thus correctly!! Any clarification would be so appreciated :)
I heard it said Happiness is a mater happenings which causes people to seek the things that the world tells us bring happiness, I like to substitute the word Peace for happiness because the only source of peace comes from God and Jesus Christ, no substitutes.
Great podcast. Really enjoy Dr. Martin as a guest speaker. She is super and so knowledgeable. I have a question: Isn't the American Indian of the Lamanite descendants ? They have dark and beautiful skin. Looks very natural; no tattoos or any thing that resembles what was spoken of this week. How do we explain their skin color? Thx
I wondered that too, but then I remembered that the Israelites (all the tribes), had mixed and intermixed DNA. Even Jesus didn't have a pure Judaic bloodline. I think that perhaps Lehi's and Ishmael's families already had a beautiful mix of DNA in their lines and perhaps there was light and dark skin already amongst them. And just another thought, the Cherokee have very light skin while other tribes have darker skin. Also, I believe that not all of America's Indigenous population come from Lehi's family. Just a thought...
First, I would say that "among the principle ancestors of" leaves room for others, and second, between the end of the BoM and the arrival of Columbus is about a thousand years. I also want to note that the BoM writers never mention the Lamanites getting differences in hair, facial features, etc., just skin and behaviors.
Wondering! Dr Martin mentioned that race was not an issue until more recently. In Numbers 12:1-5 Miriam was smitten because she was critical of her brother Moses who married an Ethiopian woman. Aren’t Ethiopians black?
I don’t find a reference to Sariah’s death. If she were alive at this time … I can not imagine her sorrow & pain having to choose between staying with Laman & Lemuel and their families or going with Nephi and his families and those that chose to separate.
The introduced new thoughts regarding “curse” is wonderful. But, there are also issues where we have to be concerned in latter days on importance of chg for secular concerns/message being more important than Gods doctrine or warping God’s law so as not to offend mortals. Same with all is well vs use of repentance to make well.
Great discussion!!
Teaching people to stay and forgive and forgive when they are being abused is enabling the abuse. Better to teach- no one deserves to be lied to, insulted, or controlled. Our marriages would be more celestial if this is what was taught. 💕
I personally think Nephi did not leave until after his father died because it would have been too difficult on Lehi to travel at that point, not because he needed to continue to give laman and Lemuel more chances to throw him in the ocean.
I have experienced the very uncomfortable situation of setting a firm boundary with a neighbor who approached me for months whenever his wife wasn't around (also found out I wasn't the only single woman he was doing this to). I tried my best to avoid him; but when he did approach me, I would hardly be civil to him in hopes of discouraging his unwanted attentions. One time he approached me when a friend was with me and she, knowing nothing about this situation, told me 'when his wife dies, he will be on your doorstep'...ummm NO thank you. When I finally had to just outright tell him to leave me alone, he was deeply 'offended' and stomped away. Oh and did I mention this guy has a drone??? I do prayerfully seek to forgive him, but that will not include being friendly towards him nor having anything to do with him. And his wife still doesn't know what he's been doing. Now he lurks around when he can, but doesn't approach me.
Thx! ❤
Wow I loved all the possibilities for what skin of blackness means! Especially the animal skins! Such cool theories !!!
And the tattoos!!!
Thank you for spending so much time breaking down the “skin of blackness” issue. That was super interesting! I do have one question though. If the concept of defining people by skin color wasn’t introduced until later in history then how can we also use the verse about “male and female, black and white, bond and free” to suggest that Nephi was inclusive of skin colors?
And since Joseph also found the sword of Laban we can assume he took that too:) which is a really cool bittersweet scene to envision. I’m sure he remembered the moment he got it. And also maybe thought about Moses and their exodus from Egypt
i get that there are many ways of "interpreting" scriptures, but sometimes it feels like we try too hard to put words into Gods mouth in order to pacify our own weak sensibilities.
I think we need to stop interpreting the Book of Mormon using our modern day culture. I think ancient peoples had much different opinions than we do today and that’s fine. We accept it as it is. Early church leaders had different attitudes towards race than we do today and we accept it. We don’t condemn it. We need to move on from getting riddled by anything that offends our modern day idea of racial equality. Racial equality is a very modern idea as from the last 60 years or so.
Yes! Very disappointed in this episode and with John and Hank, sadly.
Racial equity is a more recent concept. Racial equality has always been preached as in God loves all His children.
Last 60 years? The Civil war was all about slavery and the fact blacks were lesser. We do condemn some of the ideas of early church leaders regarding race. Some clearly false things have been said. The church has done a great job to move on from it but there are some troubling things that have been said and this verse has been used to justify some of those incorrect ideas
As a lifelong member of 70+ years, I am extremely dismayed by the black skin issue. My feeling is that by re-interpreting the black skin language in 2 Nephi by speculating that black skin may be a metaphorical concept, or to suggest that black skin could be referring to a tattoo (Logistically, would all the Lamanites get a tattoo? how would that even work?) or that the Lamanites were distinguished by dark clothes is ridiculous. Modern day prophets, the apostles, seers, and revelators, and the entire body of the church were unified in the concept that dark skin was such a heinous curse blacks were ineligible to hold the priesthood. How else can we interpret this scripture with the entire church practicing, embracing and validating the black and white standard until 1978?
The curse is not black skin. The curse is being separated from Gods presence. I don’t see anywhere in 2nd Nephi where it says “the curse was black skin” But yes I mostly agree with your take that we have a troubled past with regards to blacks and it’s a tough issue to reconcile.
@@arynnelson371 Try 2 Nephi 5: 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
@@clintsudweeksmusic8816 yes have read it so many times. The hardening of the hearts and losing the spirit is the curse. I can see how others would interpret it that way but I feel very confident in how I read it
Another way to look at the separation of Nephi and his brothers as covanental is to remember that all covenants are a separation and a healing. The separation is crucial so that there CAN be a covenant. Just so, the healing is also necessary. It is where Christ's atonement comes into play.
From LDS prophet, Prophet Brigham Young (1801-1877):
When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the priesthood and of coming into the Kingdom of God and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity
I would be careful in our day and culture and time to equate pain or hurt with wrong doing. I have seen our day when pain and hurt has been used as a weapon to gain victimization status and use it to vilify another. I love Hank and his equating reproving another as dynamite. Most of the time I am hurt or offended and am tempted to equate it with verbal abuse, I know I have much pride and humility helps me to curb the lure to equate my initial pain with abuse. I wonder through time if abuse, especially “verbal” or “emotional” would be the same across time and cultures and ages. Physical abuse is much more clear.
Although I have usually enjoyed your podcasts, I lost some respect for it with this podcast. I agree that dark and loathsome can be any race and that we need to discuss this scripture with care and consideration for the feelings of others. I also agree that the dark skin was not the curse. However, 2 Nephi 5:21 reads "...the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." That is pretty straight forward. It does not say that they tattooed themselves, or that they wore dark animal skins. Let's treat each other with kindness and respect, let's acknowledge that every race has "good and bad", and let's be grateful that God loves all of his children and desires for all to enter into covenants with him; but let us not act as if God should be censored for what He has done in the name of being politically correct.
Thank you for saying this. I agree 100%! This sounds like philosophies of men mingled with scripture, literally!
This is yet another great episode. Thanks Dr. Jan for helping us see the Convenat language and give us such great insights.
I wonder about this idea that has come to me, slavery was a difficult subject that came to a head in the Civil War, we have finally delt with it by putting down a heavy foot and saying outright - no more!
Perhaps I have just been one of those who, though, as a child, never felt right about it, actually never had anything to say to people who were so sure that they were right about it.
Which brings me to the point.
People were in a rage about this topic of race for a very long time. It brought about abuse of all kinds and even murder.
Any one who objected was automatically considered wrong and never listened to.
There come a time when people who object seem to need to be still and
Know that God is God and can do His own work 🙏
Until then, you don't have anything else to say - only your own feelings.
Could it be that the time had finally come for all men in the Church who were worthy to receive The Presthood ?
It is interesting to me that no one seemed to object at that time.
Where as they may have before then.
Was it just time.
Did it have to do with safety. We aren't given more than we can bear.
And if you remember how happy so many people were
at the time - many were clamoring and even in an uproar - a complete
reversal - as I saw it.
There was no more death threat. ❤😊
I am confused. If racism didn’t exist then why did Nephi distinguish between black and white, bond and free, male and female…2 Nephi 26:33. I love the Book of Mormon and this type of thing does not diminish that or my testimony of it. I am just wondering about that. I thoroughly enjoy these podcasts. You do an awesome job.
These are simply adjectives to indicate there are obvious differences, but those differences don't keep us from God. Only our choices do.
Great discussion as always.❤
What is this treaty Dr Martin speaks of?
The Suzerainty Treaty is explained in part 1.
2 Nephi 5:23 “…And the Lord spake it, and it was done.”
Veil of darkness, heart of darkness, darkness of mind and intent, spiritual darkness, marking skin, and wearing skins of darkness... Are all things that Nephi chose not to say.
My niece, who we are adopting, is a very dark skinned daughter of Lehi, with a good and beautiful heart, as well as very beautiful physical features. And the heart is what God looks at: this is what makes us delightsome to God, or not.
We are making this very hard, because we are afraid of racism.
God is not racist, he lives all of his children.
Nephi was not racist, these were his brethren and kin whom he loved.
God put a physical mark to help people physically discern and not intermarry, for spiritual (not ethnic) purposes.
If your heart is good, thatvis what matters. Your skin color does not matter. Delight in how God made you.
Delight in the grace we all receive through Christ, and that we are all brothers and sisters, regardless of inherited physical traits.
💙💙
I’ve heard that the Lamanite people no longer had the “light” of the gospel so they became “dark”. Not related to skin color.
I quickly want to point out that the description of race and prejudice based on color was used long before the 16 hundreds. Ancient writings from the classical period display judgement based on pigmentation, as well. And so do writings from Nordic people long before the middle ages. Also, the Egyptian identified people based on skin tone as well. Judging people based on skin tone is not actually a new phenomenon. Other than that, I love everything you guys are saying and this is a great video. I just wanted to point out that the idea that people didn't judge others based on skin tone until the 1600s, (or I've even heard from some not until the 1800s,) is a myth people keep repeating because it sounds nicer than the reality. Reality is humans have been judging each other based on these differences for a long time. Anyway. Done rambling. Great video. This is all.
How do I access the show notes to find the references to “darkness” that was mentioned?
❤ 50:07
Be careful about setting boundaries with family members. Enduring with and loving family works better.
Not always. It’s important to help family members who for emotional health and physical safety must step away from other family members. Enduring does not mean continuing in a manner of abuse. There is evil in this world and for some evil can be found within family units; abuse of parents from their children or child; sibling to sibling etc -the Book of Mormon has examples of this found in a fallen people in this mortal world. Separation doesn’t mean loss of love. It can also mean life and survival.
Look at the Celtic peoples of Scotland and Wales, were called celtic by the antient Romans of the Roman Empire in England, pictures of dark and light people meeting in a fresco in the building atop a pyramid in mexico City. Also Welch is similar to' Reformed Egyptian' according to some Welch Anthropology at BYU. The Tahiti people are possibly descend from the Nephites and Laminate so 'Tatooing' maybe the skin of darkness in the Laminites coloring their own skin and dressing less.
How can the skin of blackness be self-inflicted, by tattooing or by wearing black clothing, when it says that "the Lord God DID CAUSE a skin of blackness to come upon them."? I feel that if you are to deal with this scripture in an intellectually honest way, you really should have mentioned the difficulty with this phrase. It should have been addressed. I can hear from your tone that you have not achieved an A-HA moment on this subject. If you think you have then please explain how you reconcile this phrase.
I’m sorry, but this is kind of ridiculous the way you’re trying to explain away what is printed right there for everyone to see. God did change the color of the skin of the Lamanites. It wasn’t something they did to themselves like through a tattoo or something. God did it, and he did it to distinguish them from his covenant people. He did the same thing in other eras and areas throughout history to keep his covenant people from mixing their seed with those who were not covenant people. Can we just call it what it is? I mean after all, there really are people in this world with different skin colors. Who do you think made that happen if we are all descended from Adam and Eve? The answer is God did it. He made it happen.
However, just because he did that, does not mean that anyone no matter what color they are cannot enjoy the blessings of the gospel and of salvation/exaltation. It was a different time then, and that’s the way God wanted it then. But now, in our time, things are different, we have a global population and the priesthood is no longer kept to a certain group in a certain area, but is available to all worthy males. This is part of the Latter day blessings. Never in history has the priesthood been available to all worthy males. This time is unique. We should rejoice in this fact and learn to love everyone and not judge anyone. It is part of our challenge in this day and age, to realize that in the past certain blessings of the gospel were only given to certain people and withheld from others, but now is the time to gather in everyone.
God new this would be part of the challenges we would face in our day, which is why we now reject racism. But let’s stop pretending that the way things are now is how they have always been. There was a time when God forbid intermarrying between certain groups of people and he made their skins different colors so the people could distinguish such. But, that is not how it is today. This is how we should be teaching this, rather than try to apply today’s culture on past people. We should be teaching that just because it was a certain way in other times, does not mean it’s that way now.
Thank you so much for all the amazing insights into the Book of Mormon. I feel so blessed to be able to listen and follow your podcast.