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Reviewer caught CHEATING!
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- Опубліковано 9 жов 2017
- Multicore Enhancement (ASUS branding) type features have been around for a long time, but lately it seems like motherboard companies are pushing the feature further than ever. Today we talk about what this feature is and whether or not it should be ON by default!
Check out this article from Ian Cutress (Senior Editor Anandtech) regarding MCE - www.anandtech....
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Reviewer caught CHEATING! | JayzTwoCents
• Reviewer caught CHEATING!
JAYZTWOCENTS
/ jayztwocents
This is my comment for this video.
And this is my reply.
kickin knowledge
Nice comment bro
I came here for the comment..
Hi! Nice content. I got a comment stating my thoughts below, and I hope a well known youtuber like u can have a say in this matter.
"As you can see, you see nothing."
pandavova "AS YOU CAN SEE YOU ARE NOT DEAD".
Thank you lol. I thought I was going nuts!
yeah that always drives me crazy... with all that gear Jay has you'd think he'd setup a screen capture. If you need to keep Coconutmonkey busy - setup a tripod and get him to switch between camera(s) and screen capture instead
"As you can see, you know nothing, Jon Snow."
An alternative would be to adjust the exposure so that we can read what's on the screen. Here it's all washed out. I feel like Nicko is running the camera on full auto which is a waste with such elaborate equipment.
YOU CHEATED JAY
Paul's Hardware Shame on you Jay. Shame on you. Paul can read you like a book. Do not even try trick him! 😉
Paul's Hardware Your secret is out Jay! :P
Lol no YOU cheated!
on scrapyard wars season 5. REMEMBER I NEVER subscribe to cheaters!
Lol jk Man
I think Asus are the cheaters, I mean this would make it look like CPUs perform better on an Asus motherboard, when in reality it's essentially just being overclocked.
Waseem H honestly extra board features is a good thing. But AI tweaker can be a bit of a headache as sometimes people don't get a good chip and the auto setting can cause system instability until they are turned off.Had a client who we built a 6950x build with and AI Tweaker drove him mad because it was causing his system to crash. So even when his. Bios was on STOCK setting his system would crash anytime he tried to do a CPU intensive task.
"as you can see here" /pans cam directly into the glare of a million suns
Geez, I wish I had known about this a year ago. I then built a mini-ITX PC for a friend with an ASUS motherboard and a Core i7-6700K. Yeah, the i7 is a bit too much for a mini-ITX computer, I thought so too myself back then, but my friend insisted on getting an i7, so I just went along with it and made sure it had a good cooler on top of it. Temperature-wise it was borderline, but still okay, or so it seemed.
Recently my friend had been complaining that his PC was acting up and that even relatively simple games were stuttering like crazy. I already suspected it may have to do with CPU temperature throttling, and then I saw this video... So I took a look at his PC yesterday, and yeah, the CPU fan was constantly spinning up like a jet engine, it had collected a huge amount of dust compared to the other fans in the system, and temperatures were hitting 90 degrees already in the short 3DMark CPU Test. I can imagine what would happen if you run a CPU-intensive game for a longer period of time.
So I then opened up the BIOS menu (and updated the BIOS while I was at it) and sure enough, ASUS Multi-Core Enhancement was set to Auto (i.e. On). So I disabled that and disabled Turbo mode for good measure as well, so the 6700K just sticks to 4.0 GHz now. The fan no longer sounds like an airplane about to take off on Windows startup, temperatures don't get above 80 degrees under load, and my friend's game now runs at a rock-solid 60 fps in 1440p. Definitely something to keep an eye on in the future then.
Astfgl thanks for that info. I have a 6700k as well. I have no water cooling and a cheapish fan cooler. I do however have a atx case and de dust it every few months. I often monitor my temps and clock speed and I have no manual or automatic over clocks set up at all on anything as when I attempted to overclock the CPU to 4.13ghz it throttled really hard under load while by default the temps never go higher than 80°c from what I've seen and my fans are never really at 100%. My gpu locks at 75°c under load and my fans are only 60% on that. Yet I do have xmp on auto and never noticed anything past 4GHz and 1.3V.
my 6700k is at 4.6ghz with the stock gigabyte % upgrade shit in bios..........
with a corsair h110 + bitfenix prodigy case
50-60c max during the most intensive scenarios
I guess I should have specifically mentioned I had to work with a Fractal Design Node 202, which only allows air coolers up to 56 mm in height. There's no room for case fans to aid the CPU cooler, nor is an AIO liquid cooler an option, unless you take a hacksaw to the case and compromise on the graphics card like BitWit did a while ago. The best option here was the Cryorig C7, which is a terrific cooler but still has its limits. Keeping an i7 under 80 degrees is a challenge in that situation, and Asus enabling their MCE setting by default doesn't help.
IMO for sake of stability in long run, you should educate your friend basic maintenance instead of restricts processor's performance :D
I would love a picture-in-picture screen capture, as I'm not able to see ANYTHING when you just point the camera at the monitor. :(
Good point, actual good feedback from a comments section....tf
Normally it's more legible than that, he probably only quickly set up lights to do a rant video and didn't set them up in a way for us to be able to read the screen
Whole video is a bit overexposed, that's a real issue.
Actually it's happened in several recent videos, when they point to the screen we can barely see what's on it, I think they at least need to work on lighting and focus @JayzTwoCents
I had to concentrate, but I was able to read the numbers.
A product should work as advertised, if a motherboard's behavior is gonna deviate from the cpu's spec, it should be made very clear. Doing this stealthily sounds like a shady measure to make your motherboards look better than others in benchmarks.
The turbo clock speed of the 8700K is advertised as 4.7GHz and that is the speed the CPU was running at.
It's advertised to run at 4.7 GHz on 1 core, not all 6, you need more voltage/power to make it run that way.
Plus, Intel has gotten alot of free, but very much false, advertisement for Coffee Lake now. The most important tests are the first ones. Even with a correction (which this wasn't, since he didn't say to disregard his first review), the first video will be looked at before this one.
Yes free publicity for a paper launch. To fu** AMD they "launched" a product and every reviewer gave their communities the good news. Has somebody ever done something like it? Oh yes. Intel again. At the Athlon 64 X2 launch they "released" the Pentium D. And is everyone sure that ASUS is not working with Intel in this case? If most of the reviewers get the ASUS board for their intel, no wonder that Ryzen has the disantvantage.
So the 1700X with its cb-score of ~ 1530 is superior again to the 8700K with its real ~ 1410.
MCE? MultiCore what? That's Media Center Edition yo.
Yes, I know, I'm old.
Heh, and CGI is Common gateway interface. ;)
oh dear lord. flashbacks.
looooool
Well, i'm 20 and i laughed, so i guess i must be old then... Damn.
Kind of funny how now Intel has the hot running CPUs and AMD is running cool.
yeah in the old days it was the other way around.
@@ColdieHU The old days it was the opposite pentium 3 era and amd palomino
history repeats itslef. P4 vs. Athlon 64, same story
@@ColdieHU AMD were superior in the old days... Intel did nothing but good marketing and came ahead with the better silicon, they hijacked some good people from AMD and eventually got far ahead of the competition... Hopefully that won't last. I'm tired of Intel bullying their costumors with inadequate price ranges the moment their chip is 5% better...
W0ND3RB0Y AMD definitely wasnt superior in the old days. Are you high?
Reminds me of the old days when Asus would OC the FSB by one or two MHz to land in front when reviewed :D
Hahaha Hello fellow old head.
:D
+erazorCTF DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM :D
Phil is watching JayzTwoCents? Now you know you've hit the big time Jay. :D
+p4rc0pr3s1s LOL Ever since his "I quit my job for UA-cam" video :D
Since Intel stopped publishing per-core turbo frequencies, is there even a "true" frequency set anymore? So since they're just saying it's "up to" 4.7GHz, wouldn't it be just as correct if the Bios just applied that to all-core loads by default as MCE does?
TDP is becoming less and less accurate anyways, with thermal throttling being the norm instead of the exception.
TDP is something Intel want to keep low intentionally. The CPUs always draw more power than what their TDP is, the average consumer simply mixes up TDP with maximum average power draw the chip will have. I love how AMD simply decided to solder all their CPUs, because TR/Epyc needs it and because the 1800X and anything below it are just bins of the same chip.
Lasse Reinlaufen actually, intel processors consume much less power below the tdp when under normal load, especially the lower end non K cpu. When you apply a decent overclock, they will consumée much more than the tdp
Can agree. My 3570K runs 4.3 GHz all core and is not even close to reach it's 77W TDP (69W if you subtract the iGPU) Sadly can't get it higher without going crazy on Vcore.
bmxriderforlife1234 I know what TDP is, it is the amount of heat the chip is designed to dissipate. Intels chips run above their TDP even at stock settings because of the thermal toothpaste. TDP has nothing to do with actual draw in this case. AMDs Ryzen CPUs often dont hit their TDP even when overclocked.
Nizar El-Zarif Intels low-end CPUs are not competitive. The 7700K has insane Temp spikes even with good cooling and stock settings. It runs close to its TDP at stock but it is made for overclocking. The 6-core coffee lake CPUs always run above their TDP, even at the low clocks the i5 comes with.
I see Adored TV is causing problems for YT tech reviewers. love that guy for calling out bullshit results
Surprise Intel hasn't sent their equivalent of Mossad after him.
yeah, the guy's AMAZING
Issue is pepole who have published results with MCE enabled (unknowingly but found out later on)have not removed there reviews or articles or at least edit the title and captions to indicate that the results are based with MCE enabled and then they should have a link that points in towards the non MCE results
Yeah I'm subbed to JayzTwoCents, he's intelligent, but I'm also subbed to AdoredTV, that guy is a PC detective!
"equivalent" of Mossad? They could probably use the real Mossad, since Intel has people working in Israel.
Jay, please, for the love of all that's holy, don't include monitor closeup, as nothing is ever visible there. Instead, hook up frame grabber and drop screenshots from it into the video later.
Vatharian I second this motion
Same lol i tried squinting and all but alas I still couldn't read shit xD
What are you people watching on? I was able to read those numbers.
He could try another screen, the acer one like the one in this video is horrendous. Cant see a thing
The video is overexposed, everything is so washed out
So reviewers showing the 8700k with Asus boards were technically reviewing overclocked chips? Seems misleading then.
It is, but it's been a trend for literally years. Even with GPU's from all offerings.
They send out "Factory" overclocked.
3 years from this video, Jay is gonna hate that CoolerMaster case.
I had to look at when you posted, I thought I found Nostradamus.
I thought that too
I didn't really notice it but man the production quality has gone up a lot over the years.
I came for the clickbait. I stayed for the 1337 knowledge.
My friend had a 4770k that was heat throttling something fierce. I went in his bios and saw it was overclocked, and he was using a stock cooler because he assumed it was at stock speeds. He was hitting about 90c. This stuff does affect people, and he could have done damage to his pc.
"Damage" might be a little bit exaggerated - but constant throttling and under-performance is a big issue.
stock cooler on a K cpu :/
Exactly my thought. Why would anyone buy a K version and use the stock cooler? Good thing the newer K Processors don't come with the stock cooler anymore.
xCyal Some people just don't care.
LinkandSheik why the heck is he using a stock cooler on a k version. At least a 30 buck 212 Evo is would be a great improvement
That's a valid point you are making. Users SHOULD be informed on all power boosting features that result in an potential higher heat output & power usage.
P.S. I think I've heard that Intel are going disable support for MCE in the coming gen CPU's
Frederik K I'm not sure how Intel could disable MCE, I mean they can, but how would they disable MCE and leave overclocking enabled?
Same way they killed BCLK OC with Skylake non-K SKUs after a while.
tarqsharq That isn't the same though. Yes, Intel released a microcode update to disable BCLK overclocking on locked CPU'S, how are they going to disable what is essentially a vendor overclock for unlocked CPU's without stopping overclocking altogether?
Essentially what I'm saying is that Intel can't really do anything about MCE on a hardware level as long as Intel have unlocked CPU'S.
If Intel cuts MCE compatibility, AMD has the cores and the opportunity to draw out more of their CPUs with MCE so long as their heatsink can dissipate it.
Then what about Intel specified TDP that MB manufacturers secretly violating?
www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asrock-x299-oc-formula-atx-motherboard,5242-4.html
That certainly has an effect on temp and power draw, hasn't it?
Think that only happens on Z chipset? Look at MSI H110m-D vs ASROCK H170 Pro4S:
www.tomshardware.com/reviews/msi-h110m-pro-d-lga-1151-micro-atx-motherboard,4688-2.html
And the similar power draw and temps on the another MSI H110 Grenade:
www.tomshardware.com/reviews/msi-h110m-grenade-micro-atx-lga-1151-motherboard,4884-2.html
"AS YOU CAN SEE..."
*Camera pans to screen*
WHAT CAN WE SEE JAY??
MCE is really great for CPU's like i5-8400 and R5 1600, *but* it should by no means be on by default. This is not only clearly a way for Asus to try and "trick" people into thinking that their MB's make's CPU's better than other MB's, and to have their MB's come out on top in benchmarks/reviews etc, but it also OC's the CPU without the user knowing it, and since most people don't actually monitor their hardware (temperature, voltage, etc) you might risk long term damage if your cooling is insufficient.
Not to mention Asus Z390 boards have SUPER toasty VRMs. So having an out of the box de facto overclock could lead to VRM instability over time, without users knowing it
No it should not. It should be disabled out of the box. Stock is stock.
vdochev Just because you are buying a k series CPU doesn't mean you plan on overclocking out of the box. Some people prefer to wait until their warranty runs out, then they overclock it to get a couple more years out of the CPU. Multi-Core enhancement is considered an overclock by Intel, thus it would void your warranty. Not only that, but Multi-Core enhance usually results in higher power consumption and higher voltage being pushed to the CPU than standard overclocking, due to the fact that it pushes more voltage than necessary to attain the higher clock speeds, shortening the lifespan of your CPU. Honestly, Multi-Core Enhancement is a stupid feature. If it works with non-k CPUs, then it sort of makes sense, but if you're buying a K series CPU, and a Z370 board, you shouldn't be using a pseudo automatic overclocking method on your CPU.
vdochev You realize you can set custom boost speeds when manually overclocking, right? Also, lots of people don't overclock out of the box. Not everyone has $2000 to speed on a new system every year, so they play it safe and wait for their CPU to not be pushing enough frames anymore, then they overclock to squeeze a bit more life out of it. My friend is still running his i7-4770K at stock speeds. It is still more than powerful enough for him, but 2 years down the line if it begins to bottleneck, he will overclock it to 4.5 GHz and get a nice 21% boost in performance. Overclocks aren't perment either smart-ass. The higher voltage degrades the CPU over time. People that ran their i7-2600K's at 5GHz out of the box back in 2011 are likely running them at 4.6-4.8 GHz today at the same or higher voltage.
vdochev And? So? Regardless, MCE should be disabled out of the box. *Stock is stock.* Stock is not overclocked. There is no in between here. Stability at stock is paramount and if MCE is enabled by default then the system is not 100% stable out of the box.
Also, regarding your naive comment about power consumption. Do you understand the laws of thermodynamics? Energy cannot be created or destroyed. What goes in, must come out. Higher the power consumption then higher the heat that must be dissipated. Caring about the power consumption of a certain component isn't just about the power consumption alone. It's also about temperatures and noise.
And besides, MCE is not a proper overclock, it shoves way too much voltage in to the CPU.
So far you've made no compelling arguments as to why it should be enabled by default. If the user so wishes, he or she can enable it if they wish. If an user buys a high-end motherboard, a K CPU and proper cooling, then he or she is probably going to be overclocking so enabling MCE by default makes no sense. If the user messes up their overclock, they should always feel safe that by resetting their UEFI/BIOS settings their system will be at 100% bone stock settings. If MCE is enabled by default, then the system is not going to be 100% stock at default settings which in turn can (and probably will) make troubleshooting difficult if they are experiencing instability with their system. If MCE is enabled by default, it is overclocking and can void your warranty and the manufacturer of the board is basically forcing their user to run the CPU out of spec if they have no idea what the hell that setting is even doing.
Well I mean, it's technically not "Overclocking", just allowing the CPU's max Turbo Boost to be applied to all cores instead of one. And just like normal Turbo Boost, it will throttle down way before hitting T-J Max. That's not overheating, that's simply Turbo Boost backing off. Overheating would be dropping below base clock speeds.
While it does add heat. I'm with the other guy, if you buy top of the line hardware, why are you skipping out on free performance? And Even Jay himself made a video on is overclocking safe. Remember he had a CPU running overclocked 100% of the time, with no speedstep enabled, so it always ran at it's max, for 7 years before the MOTHERBOARD gave out. Unless you loss the silicon lottery hard, you are most likely gonna replace the CPU due to natural upgrade before you kill it with overclocking... I know people are still scared of it, but then again, buy a non-K CPU and use the money you saved to buy a better GPU. Or more games.
You're not even understanding the feature. Turbo is turbo, is not what you think as "stock" (base frequency - P-state 1/P1). With MCE enabled people don't feel cheated; you will reach the advertised turbo (P-state 0 for 1 core/P01) on all cores, what a consumer would expect when reading the turbo frequency in the box. Intel has different turbos depending on the ENABLED [not in use, not active, ENABLED] cores in BIOS; in the case of 8700K: P01 = 4.7 GHz, P02 = 4.6 GHz, P04 = 4.4 GHz, P06 = 4.3 GHz. So, out of the box, if you don't have a feature like MCE, you'll never see the 4.7 GHz advertised in the box being reached; you'll feel cheated for seeing 4.3 GHz unless you explicitly overclock, which is fine if you have a "K" SKU. Now imagine someone with a 8700, never being able to reach the advertised 4.6 GHz in the box, he'll be limited to 4.3 GHz turbo ever wondering what happened to the supposed turbo boost indicated everywhere.
So yeah, to me: MCE should be enabled by default, is no overclock, is enforcing the advertised turbo, already tested by Intel, regardless of how many cores you have enabled. I repeat: P01 is a frequency-voltage point tested by Intel itself, per each part (not SKU, each silicon chip); is not the next Joe's overclocking values.
You're camera man keeps zooming in on the screen... but I can't read any of those values... ;)
Jeremiah VI are you watching on a phone? At 1080p they are readable
I'm watching on a 4k screen and I can't any detail on screen
Yeah, when the cameraman cant use the camera that's what happens. He found the zoom button and sort of the focus, now for the aperture, and shutters.
Sure would help to turn down the brightness on the screen for the camera as well.. ;/
Now I understand what really happened with Linus's Power consumption results. His Stock power consumption and Temps (163W and 92C) were higher than Overclocked (151W and 89C). The stock was the real overclocked one! He said it was partially a firmware bug!
MCE is an overclock so basically the benchmark that has MCE on by default are a false benchmark for stock speed, all the reviewer need to redo the test now.
Remember this only applies to ASUS boards. Other board partners don't have MCE on by default. So if they did the review with a different board and didn't turn it on the review is perfectly fair.
MSI Gaming boards have it on by default aswell. They just call it different.
Like right now.
No they dont, you have the benchmarks from other sources anyway, why would you want to see the exact same results again?
You gotta do screen captures. It's almost impossible to see when you say " Look right here".
Agreed. Also, What screen/config app is he going to when he says "Let's enable performance mode" at 8:12 ? It's clearly not the BIOS screen.
Rajeev Shankar Lmao he knows I’m sure he had to at some point see the clips that have to much exposer
@@tasdau that's the windows power management plans
@@tasdau I'm guessing it's the Windows power plan options where you choose either balanced or performance mode.
This is just hilarious that they have a warning when enabling XMP... Couldn't agree more, XMP enabled by default and MCE disabled and with a switch in basic menu. Also why don't they just call it Enabled/Disabled like everything else?
XMP enabled by default is a bad idea, compatibility issues happen and you just have to look at Ryzen for this. Hell on my Ryzen system I've used 3 different BIOS versions which have all reacted differently to XMP being active, on the first the speed would revert back to 2133 in Windows (despite being 3200 in the BIOS) and on the second version Windows would always just crash during boot. The third most recent version I put on last week made things worse as the system doesn't even POST which causes the BIOS to reset everything back to default when I try XMP, so you could imagine the infinite loop I'd be in if XMP was enabled by default.
There should definitely be a prompt. Make it easy for people to activate once you start it, if they want to take the "risk".
Tut tut, Intel shipping out their best binned chips to reviewers and ASUS automatically overclocking.
Not misleading at all.
They don't ship the best chips to reviewers. Watch linus's vid on "are review sample CPUs cherry picked? $H!T Viewers say part 1"
@@saminhossain750 Don't trust a person that gets "free" stuff to test out to be 100% true in the review. If they were honest in the reviews they wouldn't get shit sent to them anymore
Great video, thank you.
But would the cameraman please learn how to use the exposure settings? All your videos are overexposed and white levels completely blown out. I don’t know if your post processing, but if you are, use lab settings on the camera, so it brings the levels nice and low so that you can post process the image after, without over saturation of colours, or blown highlights.
No, my videos are NOT over exposed... the monitor is a light source, so naturally exposing for the monitor would UNDER EXPOSE the rest of the shots. Not to sound like an ass, but I narrate the numbers and I might very well add a capture card for later on, however I am not soliciting advice on how to shoot or expose. Thanks though.
JayzTwoCents Can the exposure not be adjusted on the fly to account for light sources?
Jay is a good guy. Jay sees an exposure based comment and replies. Be like Jay
JayzTwoCents - Respectfully, yes some of them are, and please calm down when your talking to people that only respect you and what your doing, and are only trying to offer advice to help. At the end of the day, your a UA-camr, not a professional cinematographer, and many people are saying about the exposure of many of your videos in the comments. Respectfully, don’t be above taking some criticism from time to time, as well as offers of advice. Taking these as a personal attack every time will only serve to alienate you from your fanbase in the long run.
Tone P
UA-camr*
yeah was confused for a while as to why my 2600k runs at 3.8 instead of 3.4 on my ASUS board.
Also brightness and exposure of this video gave me a headache.
its normal with the 2600k cpus. Nothing to do with the Asus motherboard
In terms of XMP, you have to be careful on lower end motherboards. Had 1600 ram running at 1333 base, but when I enabled XMP, it basically bricked my PC. After about 9 reboots, finally got back to bios, and turned XMP off, now it runs fine. I am running A8-5600K on a A55 chipset Gigabyte board (16GB ram). Apparently the board has a max RAM speed it can handle, or else it won't boot properly. I am upgrading in a week to a R5 3600 with MSI B450 Tomahawk Max.
In my best sarcastic jay voice..
"Butttt jay-aaaa... the pump is sitting above the radiator..."
LoL
So you're saying some of the "stock" benchmarks where actually overclocked? To me that seems a bit misleading...
Well, it's actually "stock" since the Asus board comes like that out of the box.
its not outside of the speed rating its just at max turbo clock.
TheTechOasis which only effects 1 or 2 cores so yes it is out of spec
U camera man really needs to learn manual exposure man. It's just embarrassing to point at a bright LCD screen with everything blown out.
It impeded the information getting across to you?
@Ludak021
Ahhh, ....
jaaa
it IS manually exposed... too bright to begin with, jay is bright, everything is bright, only the wall behind is normal (aka if they properly exposed the table area, the monitor wouldnt be so bright either, though still a concern for all the people watching on crappy uncalibrated monitors with white crush)
Dude, every reviewer should have standards high as yours. Thanks for what you're doing for the community. ❤
This was a really sly ploy by Intel, bunch of respected reviewers came out and said "yup, Intel is better for gaming than AMD again", and the damage is done, scores are shown as higher than AMD, and all the sheep will flock to buy i5-s and i7-s.
To be fair Jay you should have put the same (or similar) air cooler on the Intel processor when doing the tests, and the score wouldn't be that high, it doesn't matter that you suspect it will run hot, it is what it is, why give it a crutch?
Apparently adding $200 plus to platform cost so Intel doesn't throttle or overheat and shut down when benchmarking against Ryzen is considered "equal".
I don't really blame the reviewers here, but I just wanna scream when I see Intel system with Kraken X62 benched against a Ryzen with a stock cooler or a Hyper 212.
And the liquid cooled Intel hits 90c under load/stress testing, and no one loses their minds.
Instead they delid and apply liquid metal, remount the X62 or custom loop, and test again, against the same air cooled Ryzen, which OC's easily on a budget cooler, and call the Intel a winner.
At least a discussion on this is being had currently amongst the top reviewers.
* full disclosure. R5 1600x in a Crosshair 6 here. And loving it. :)
Intel never stopped being better for gaming...so?
I do agree with the cooling tho, reviewers are a little too attached to their LGA1150/1 water cooling systems, they should perform these tests with comparable 3rd party coolers or at least an Intel cooler comparable to the stock AMD one. It's not like there aren't fantastic air coolers out there that are even as good as these cheap all in one water coolers at cooling the CPU (even if the heat is dispersed in the system heating the entire PC a bit, it's still comparable).
my 6700k @ 4.6ghz stays at 50-60c during the most intensive tests on a corsair h110 inside a tiny case
Ashelor my delidded 8700k at 5.1ghz 1,35v under load never hits more than 60c while gaming with an x62 kraken, which definitely is not an overkill cooler for a $400 cpu.
games dont use all threads at max at all, plus 4.3 to 4.7 isnt that big of a difference to change more than a few fps, intel would still be better for specifically 120fps+ games
No they shouldn't.
There's a chance that a customer who live in a hot area, such as South East Asia or Africa,...etc, cannot handle all the voltage increase and thus decrease life expectancy of his/her CPU, a very important component that should outlive most, if not all other components inside the pc.
Its also unethical and unfair for Intel's rivals, mainly AMD, for them to do so.
At first, customers will see the that intel cpus got some kind of special "feature", which it is not, that enable them to have massive advantage over AMD CPUs. It's gonna be very misleading and harmful for people who are not enthusiasts, since i'm pretty sure that most average customers will not notice that their cpu is being killed by the heat, as most will unlikely to have knowledge about system monitoring softwares, and they will probably not notice the performance decrease caused by thermal throttling. There's one thing i know for sure, is that normal customers will definitely choose Intel over AMD, since they follow the brand power that Intel has developed for almost a decade, and will say no to every kind of CPU which is not Intel.
One example of an average gamer:
I have friends who play games on his laptops and pc a lot, and he doesn't even notice the difference between 18 and 60fps, hell he doesn't even notice the mouse delay either. His laptop's GPU reached 95 decreases most of the time, and he didn't know that. The laptop is dead btw, now he got a pc that has horrible p/p but still strong enough for him to play games. It cost around $1600 USD, and its around 50%-80% slower than my 2 years old PC, which costs around $1400 at the time of purchase.
Excelent point...
What is p/p?
Stupid point, it only boost when there's enough headroom temperature. When you are beginning to peak the maximum temperature it'll throttle the boost and reduce your voltage.
FYI I didn't actually read your comment, it's too long, I just assume it's you trying to be smart about the "boosting all cores" thing.
Is your friend a rock??
I think anything that could possibly cause instability should be "explained"by adding a notice if the board has determined MCE will be on. Just a line of text that says, "We have determined MCE could be helpful - If instability occurs - set MCE to off."
I blame Russia.
Look up what happened with Kaspersky. You're joke isn't as far off as you might think.
Confirmed Russia hacked his BIOS just like the US election!!!!!11one1
EU say Kapersky did nothing.
covfefe lake
MCE should be off if you're comparing one stock cpu to another stock cpu. Comparing a stock cpu against another cpu that is essentially a 4.7Ghz OC on all six cores isn't a factual comparison. Intel loves it I'm sure, and I'm also sure they knew exactly what they were doing when they conveniently sent the Asus boards to reviewers with binned 8700k chips.
Sneaky, sneaky Intel.
T51B1 they aren’t even binned, most 8700ks can do 4.9ghz even. mine hits 5.1, but some have hit as high as 5.3
The thermal paste goes back further than Haswell. They started doing it consistently with Ivy Bridge. In fact, Sandy Bridge could often be overclocked to pretty much match overclocked Ivy Bridge in performance for this very reason.
ManWithBeard1990 yea i had both before i jump to ryzen. Sandy soldered runs cool ->ivy lousy Tim makes cpu runs hot af. My ryzen under normal usage with oc never goes above 60 degree, so loving the cool temp.
I'm still on Kaveri and Puma+ until I graduate engineering school. Then I'll be able to afford new hardware.
Jay, I'd rather not have XMP enabled by default.
Here is my reasoning: so I bought G.SKILL RGB Trident Z memory (16GB) which was rated to run at 3200mhz.
So I went into the BIOS, and enabled XMP. I saved and rebooted... it did not post. The system kept shutting off and turning back on several times, because it the motherboard knew something was wrong and automatically reset to defaults and put me back into UEFI BIOS.
So, I downclocked my memory a bit, and now it's running fine.
The problem with having it on default is, if there is a memory speed issue, your system will not post. Reseting to defaults won't work, because XMP would be enabled by default. If XMP was default enabled on my motherboard, I would've been mega fucked.
We do not, and cannot afford to just swap out the memory when there is an issue. You're privileged enough to have that luxury; not us.
that is the primary reason not to have any overclocking enabled by default. getting bad ram is not unheard of, even ones that cant even run at jdec speeds.
I agree with this, i've noticed a few times when you enable xmp the system will become unstable, i believe different board manufacturers set voltages differently. Gamers nexus did a video on this per manufacturer differences but only for cpu.
I know on my gigabyte board if i set xmp. it crashes and sometimes i catch the mem voltage at like 1.75v. But if I set the mem multiplier and the voltage manually then its 100% stable.
This is with a pack of Corsair vengeance pro.
Lol then you should have returned your ram.
Was you just using 1 stick of ram? or 2 x8 gig sticks? Most new boards use duel Memory which means you need 2 sticks of same size to get the best performance. Just a thought.
Zeorymer300 your build is down while you wait for ram because you cant switch to jdecc default in the mean time, as you can never post. it is possible the next ram kit will also be defective.
Well done to come back to this topic JayzTwoCents. And no, a feature like this should be off by default. Let us please decide where to go with the settings ourselves.
Is this on intel AND AMD Asus board? Or just on intel Asus boards?
I suspect it's for all boards. It's a "motherboard technology", not a CPU one.
I did check now some threads, AMD users also debate about MCE.
When building with the ASUS 2170 Pro gaming with a 6700k for my brother, this caused SO many issues. I got the CPU+Mobo+ 16 gb 3000 mhz blue ram for $355, so i was doing testing. Doing everything with default made the voltage go up to 1.4v, and temps were 95c with a 280mm cooler. The case is awful for front rads (P400s TG) but when i did my custom voltage to 1.3, turning MCE off, and doing multiplier changes to 4.6 droped the max temps to 82c. Obviously if it was in a better airflow case those temps would be lower (currently at 4.4ghz @ 1.25v and never goes above 71) since the games he plays are fps capped at 120 fps (blade and soul and some other steam games).
They need to fix "Stock" voltages and core multipliers because with everything at default, it may look like the cpu is faulty and something is wrong, when its clearly the motherboards settings being shipped like that.
I have a p400 too with a 280mm aio on the front and my temps barely hit 60c after half an hour of synthetic load.
cpu is Ryzen 1700 ocd to 4GHz with 1.4v.
It's not the case, it's the toothpaste special your cpu has under its ihs.
That's why Intel isn't gonna say the boost clock for the cores again
It’s like selling you a BMW M5 with the iDrive system defaulted to “track”, but not telling you. Then you’re left to wonder why you’re only getting 15mpg and it needs serviced every 5,000 miles.
I work for a computer parts retailer and we've had multiple issues with computers being unstable, when XMP is disabled. Enabling XMP has always solved it for us. In the almost 3 years I've been working at that place, I've not once seen stability issues arise from enabling XMP.
What would happen if MCE is enabled and a 8700K with a feeble cooler (i.e. Intel Stock Cooler) is used? Will the board adjust the parameters accordingly or will it heat up the cpu until throttling kicks in?
heat up until throttle
^ i thought so, ty for clarifying
The 8700k comes with a stock cooler? I thought they ditched the stock coolers on “k” series.... Anyway, no fire but maybe as close as it can get xD
Nope, the 8700K does not include a stock cooler from Intel (That's why I wrote the "i.e." before I mentioned the cooler in the OP). As far as I can see they're all WOF (Without Fan) packages - at least here in Germany.
And now my room is a lot cooler. Thanks Jay.
Yeah by 1 Degree, also its Autumn and Winter is coming, to have 1 Degree more in your room isn't that bad :P
As an ex-system builder I would like to know what is going on in a system when I build it. Obviously I would read up on the BIOS to see if there is anything new happening, but as you mentioned Jay, the options have been in systems for a little bit so would likely go unnoticed at first. A first time builder however possibly would have no clue and would potentially damage hardware due to inadequate cooling because of this feature. At the very least, there should be something on the first page of the manual or the first page of the BIOS section explaining that this is on.
Due to Intel's heat spreader issues/cheapness, I going to be using AMD for the next couple generations, They have tested way better on heat transfer.
ARR SHADOWMAN I mean... you COULD delid and then relid your IHS with new thermal paste and silicone sealant, I wouldn't recommend it at all but... it does work, and I do think it's absolute bullshit you the consumer would have to do at all that because of their shoddy manufacturing
My Ryzen Threadripper 1950X soldered on heatspreader. Top temp I have seen in the full of a heat wave in Australia, 64c.
No i’ve done it on my 8700k, 26c drop without resealing. i’d totally recommend it if you can shell out 30 or so bucks for a proper tool.
England is my city Just buy better cooler and better thermal paste and you are good
@@tenshi7angel still runs hotter than my intel and l live in adelaide where heat waves are the norm
OFF !!!!
*chanting* "TURN OFF THE LIG... MCE!!!"
I wish you would use screen capture in your vids instead of filming the glare off the monitor. Other than that - great stuff again :)
Disliked for the non-related clickbait title.
Not at all, I am about to buy 1700X.
What does the title have to do with AMD/Intel? Nothing, so what the hell are you on about?
KittehCat No rewiewer was caught cheating so the title was click bait. If there was cheating, it was Asus that cheated.
Calling someone Intel fanboy or Android fanboy etc is a quite immature way to debate and done by people unable to submit real arguments. You indirectly called yourself "child".
This is the reason why them Chief engineers took the decision to have MCE on by default: division of tasks. In their corporate minds, people who buy these motherboards and the accompanying overclockable CPU's (like i7-7700K, 8700K, etc) ONLY use them for gaming and other power intensive tasks. In their minds, the clients have 1 PC that they use for gaming, at least 1 laptop for web browsing and all the other less intensive tasks, 1 HTPC, 1 tablet for reading stuff or watching videos before going to sleep, 2 smartphones, a 2 story house in the suburbs and AT LEAST two cars in the garage (well the last two parts could be excluded :). Like why would you ever watch JayzTwoCents videos on your i7-8700K/GTX 1080Ti gaming rig when it's much more confortable and power efficient to watch them on your MacBook or your 65'' 4K QLED SmartTV connected to the HTPC? Get it? That's how rich people think.
If it can't be handled by a base-model cooling solution, then it should be off by default. That said, it's nothing they can't remedy with a BIOS update. Thing is though, why would anyone buy a 'K' Sku with a crappy cooler?
Chiriac Puiu - I agree. But honestly, if ppl don't know how to properly cool their CPU, then they really shouldn't be building PC's, in the first place. But you're right, they'll still do it & mobo makers should protect those ppl from harming their hardware, at stock specs.
Chiriac Puiu - That's a fair point.
why does this look like it was filmed 2 years ago?
nvm its cause my computers crap =(
vaids nomiss someone needs covfefe pond
Because your computer is crap.
Someone forgot to white balance, everything looks a little washed out.
Cameras in 2015 were pretty close to cameras now.
Absolutely right Jay. Asus or any other company for that matter should have warnings put for ANY settings that would put the system board into a high-heat situation. This is not only saving their butts, but its also improving the commercial user experience. Transparency is too big of an is too big of an issue. You're a good man for bringing this important topic to light. A company like ASUS should know better.
I think the user should be warned about ME being on by default. For me it doesn't matter since I do research, read reviews, and go through the bios myself when I get it. However, for users that are not aware I have seen it causing instability issues and crashes, high temperatures, increased power usage. These are things the consumer has a right to know, even the filthy casual non tinkering one :)
Asus is smart company, people will buy their MBs cause CPU runs better by default.
This is a serious problem. People would choose Coffee Lake over Ryzen due to benchmarks reported by reviewers while having the settings enabled/auto and not mentioning it. This was the case for reviewers with lots of subscribers/influence. You can find a more in depth explanation in AdoredTV
Also, you should use screenshots instead
I choose Kaby Lake over Ryzen.
Jesus Fernandez let's be honest here AMD was going to cash it on no matter what because they're garbage and always going to be second best even threadripper Falls to the I9
@@ghfhgfuuu I just wonder what do you think about AMD and Intel now? I'm not exactly angry at you, rather curious why you were so against AMD and said it would always be worse then Intel.
@@jannegrey593 because at the time all those years ago INTEL did smash AMD especially when it came to gaming performance. Also if you have to preface with the fact that you're not mad then that usually means you actually are mad. How do I feel now after a few years passed? I feel like AMD once the second generation chips came out turned a huge corner and really matured and everything after that point absolutely stuck it to Intel especially with their pricing since Intel never really pulled its head out of its own ass when it came to dropping price over time like AMD would with their chips. Performance wise AMD has improved a lot and it has caught up with Intel, but when it comes to gaming performance and benchmark scores as far as gaming Intel still beats them but you have to pay a ridiculous price usually. I may very well make an AMD PC one of these years but as of right now it's the wrong time.
The test method may have to be enhanced by first estimating the results for each and every benchmark test to be run. Then after the real test results have been obtained, investigate deviations exceeding tolerance by comparing actual results with expected results. That's a common method in engineering: A test script should consist of the individual test cases or measurement tasks and the respective expected (estimated) results. That's a good way how to systematically find possible errors, failures, anomalies or erroneous deviations. And in this specific case it does make you immune against some of the manufacturer's marketing claims - which is to be expected from professionals.
The prompt that they threw up when you enabled it after it being turned off was what I would expect from a company. Perhaps ASUS tests each board, and MCE was turned on last, but it was forgotten that they needed to turn it off before shipping the mobo. That's just my bit of conjecture. I don't use ASUS mobo's, but this was a nice tidbit that I hadn't heard about yet. Thanks for the info, JTC.
think there is a bit of overexposure going on in this video
GamersNexus had stability problems with 'default' (aka default overclocking) settings...
At the moment I'm leaning towards shippping with that feature off and putting some kind of blurb on the box "Your cpu performance can be improved by enabling MCE but you should consider upgrading your cooling first." or something to that effect.
I don't understand why so many comments down here say that this is a clickbait. I'm considering buying an ASUS mobo for my new personal build (I don't know which one yet as I'm hesitating between 3 models from MSI, ASUS and Gigabyte), and I didn't know about their default MCE setting which is important to be aware of (at least from a builder stand point, as well as benchmarking results of those mobo). For me, this isn't a clickbait but rather an informative little clip, thanks Jayz
How will MCE work with non-K SKUs?
That's a good question.
That's a good question.
It will be amazing to get an i5-8400 at 4 GHz on all cores, right? Overclock over nothing ... Well, adequate cooling is required. But, it should be very very amazing. Right? Right?
MCE only fixes the i5 8400 at its all core turbo of 3.8 GHz, up from 2.8 GHz base, according to Techpowerup.
Bayonet still, 1 Ghz is huge.. is hyper 212 adequate for this "overclocking" and is there any draw back from this method?
It makes the Ryzen vs Intel at non-overclocked tests totally invalid, of course. I also am reluctant to view any of the new Coffee Lake benchmarks as accurate until retail samples are available.
+1 for MCE prompt upon first boot, with a detailed explanation what MCE actually does.
Another +1 for enabling XMP by default because if RAM has a profile, it can run it and it doesnt cause additional heat or power consumption that is worth mentioning.
Never understood why it has to be enabled manually in the first place.
Anyone who buys a $500 Mobo then sticks a stock cooler on the CPU needs to have their PCMR membership card pulled and revoked. *PERIOD*.
yep
MCE should be off by default. The MB maker can't know what kind of cooling system the buyer will use and whether it would be enough to keep the CPU from overheating with MCE enabled.
Did you really need to use such a clickbaity title? You even uploaded it with another title, or am I misremembering? Shame.
Chill your shit if it says video your ass ain’t gonna watch it and he makes no money it’s marketing views = money so you need a clickbait to get views because as I’ve stated if the video title said video 099 or sum shit like that your not interested because it doesn’t pull you in the same shit is with books
absolutely. it shouldn't be on by default, and it should inform anyone that enables it as to what it entails.
Processors have Thermal ratings, but something like this changes those ratings. similarly, Motherboards are designed to support the Processors available on that Socket, but not all of them are built to handle Overclocking well.
because this type of thing can make real impact on the stress the Motherboard receives as well as to how well the Thermals will be managed - it's really important that this stuff isn't interfering with default operation. because as you say it is not that uncommon for users to not know much about their system, and therefore the Manufacturers COULD in some situations be creating extra wear or instability on systems than any of the Manufacturers are intending for!
I want to thank you. I have intel Kaby Lake i7 7700 that was roasting itself when I would render a video( room temp 65 f core temps 85 c for a half hour or more). I didn’t know about this setting in the uefi so I disabled it and now am running at most 65 c.
Turns out my asrock motherboard was overclocking my cpu from 3.6 ghtz to 4.4! There is were the heat was coming from!
TL;DR: Intel's paste isn't that shitty, they just use too much adhesive on the IHS.
I was researching Intel's thermal issues over the past few days. Interestingly enough, the paste Intel uses may not be all that shitty. Instead, it may be a combination of 2 factors, 1 of which any tech youtuber will cringe at. First, Intel uses a LOT of thermal paste, to the point where most tech-savvy people will scream "TOO MUCH!!!" But this alone may not be the culprit, what may be the actual culprit is the adhesive that Intel uses to adhere the IHS to the pcb. The amount of adhesive they use raises the IHS up and away from the die, but the thermal paste closes the gap, so to speak. So the fact that the IHS is too far from the actual die and the thermal paste is being used to make up for the gap may be the actual culprit.
This may explain why "de-lidding" has been so effective at dropping temps by as much as 20C. When people de-lid their processor and they go to re-adhere the IHS to the pcb, they use a more reasonable amount of adhesive, and so the gap is closed and thermal transfer is far more efficient.
And as far as I know, the reason for switching to thermal paste is because that while it is less efficient than soldering, it has long-term viability.
I have been preaching this since the 3770k. No one listens, so I just gave up. The issue is indeed the distance between the IHS and die when used in conjunction with TIM. I have tested this myself way back by remounting the IHS with the stock TIM and the temperature drop was immediate and within margin of error when using a different TIM. God the amount of Internet arguments I have had over this and yours is the first comment I have even seen that touches on the subject.
Fucking sheeple....sheesh.
The long term viability that you mention is claimed to be due to the ever shrinking die manufacturing.
Intel claims that after "X" number of heating and cooling cycles damage can occur (cracks) on such a low nm die when using solder.
AMD Ryzen uses two small pads of Indium solder with gold plating on the inside of the IHS @14nm so I don't know about the validity of Intel's claims, I am not qualified to argue the point other to say "AMD can manage it."
it's an interesting video, and it's good you made it, but this has nothing to do with a reviewer cheating, and is thus your title is clickbait.
100% Jayz, the issue I find is that ALL this stuff should be off by default so there is complete transparency for stock hardware while minimizing potential conflict issues. The fact that Ram speeds are sold on their OC readings is an absolute joke. All hardware speeds and performance readings should be based on stock settings and those settings should be set at exactly that, stock! More and more of these 'options' are turned on and have the potential to create so much conflict for those wanting to understand or achieve out of the box performance and stability. It's wrong and it's not the right direction :'(
The last soldered mainstream CPU was Sandy Bridge, Ivy bridge was the first that used thermal paste and was being delidded for better cooling. Naked Ivy was a popular addition from EK to mount the waterblock on a bare Ivy Bridge die with more precision and reduce possibility of damaging the CPU.
On my Haswell 4690 HTPC, I can enable the MCE equivalent on my Asrock board, but it doesnt take any effect due to Intel an Intel Micro Code update that prevents locked CPUs from boosting all cores to max turbo. I suspect that they would have this in place already for the 8 series CPUs, so it would only be effective for K series CPUs. The Anandtech article was posted around Ivy Bridge, when MCE really started showing up on Z77 motherboards. Intel cracked down on it in Haswell so people would be forced to purchase K CPUs to get faster all core speeds.
I suspect that Kyle may have some underlying configuration issues beyond MCE not being enabled that makes his score lower. Could be a poor bios config by Gigabyte if he is on the Aorus?
Its good that you put this information out in the open. I feel that MCE should never be on by default, especially when there are few options to choose from in a CPU lineup where non overclockers will purchase K CPUs and not purchase additional cooling. The voltages set by AUTO are typically way too high for the speeds achieved, as can be seen in this video. Manually, you could probably run 4.7ghz on all cores with close to the default voltage.
Why is LTT not able to make informative videos like this? Gets views and much likes. Also easy editing...
they big too big if business to give a damn about enthusiast demographic. too niche of a market this one. now they need to cater to the mass 'consumers'.
this is not new.... my z97 hero 4790K does this by default. 4.4ghz on all cores at 1.278v
I just assemble yesterday my new rig (Maximus X Hero / 8700K / 32gb of ram 3200MhZ). My CPU is cooled by a Kraken X62. I started Prime 95 and the temp went up to 95 degrees. After disabling MCE the temp was maxed out at 70 degrees. Tonight I will figured out how to keep the core to 4.3GhZ all the time.
after use default setting in 2 years my computer start to random crash. i notice temp are high even with 3rd big fan.
now i disable mce and turbo boost. temp are cool and my computer run normal without crash.
thq for sharing
Boring ads, more *your* ads please!
It's disabled by default on my MB
Gigabyte Aorus
He stated this was an ASUS thing...
Rekt
It's off on mine by default I believe. I've got an Asus Z170-AR
Did you put XMP on ?
Wow! I didnt know that Memory doesn't run at advertised speeds, Thanks Jay. I'm thinking of building my first gaming pc in the next few months and I didn't know that.
:)
A friend of mind had bought a 7700K a while back and on an MSI motherboard. Benchmarking out of the box showed all cores running the turbo frequency of 4.6ghz. That was before any settings changes in the BIOS. I couldn't figure out then why it was doing it, but it seems MSI is also turning on their multicore enhancement feature by default.
YOLO.... seriously? Unsubscribed!
Did jay gain weight? He's more...plump than usual.
*JayzSwoleCents*
Oh Asus overclocking by default is absolutely an issue. It burned by 6900K, because I didn't know. Thanks Asus. Cost me a fortune.
As someone building their first PC and also happens to have bought an Asus motherboard running an i5, I'm extremely glad I came across this video!
Jay you looked triggered as never before (angry?), and also tired. Long nights of working are noticeable. Take a break and a long nap sir. Great vid. thanks.
I'd be angry too if I was conned by Intel and Asus.
Clickbait
Boo hoo
JAYZ THIS VIDEO WAS SO HELPFUL!~!!~!~!~~ i swear ive spent well over 1000 hours in the past year watching tech videos and researching computer parts all for fun and to someday build my own gaming/productivity/enthusiast desktop, but i never even knew mce**, or whatever, was a feature. having this knowledge and getting to understand these performance variants really helps me understand what i'm looking at. especially when i'm trying to compare apples to apples between ryzen and iten. this new 8th gen launch being what it is, proper results will be even more important. again thanks.
My old desktop PC was a i7-4790K on a MSI Z97 Gaming 3 board. The motherboard utilities defaulted to overclocking the CPU to 4.5GHz on all cores (I think it was the Command Centre app). This caused major issues for me as one of the pins on the cooler that I was using was broken and my CPU was thermal throttling under medium loads. Setting the CPU to run at 4GHz base with the staggered boost depending on how many cores were under load kept the CPU from hitting TjMax under heavier loads until I got a new cooler
I came here because of AdoredTV
Its hard when you have to explain everything to peasant
Fabulous FAM *looks at your pfp* hmm yeah i get it
I had no idea what MCE was, I did however disable it right away since I didn't know its purpose. I do think it should be off by default with a warning like you mentioned for x.m.p.
Jay, I am glad you made this video. I just got my Asus Maximus X Hero and the i7 8700k CPU and I have the Kraken x63 AIO and my core temps were spiking in the 80's and my CAM software was sending me notifications that my CPU was overheating. I removed the MCE and my temps are in the mid 40's idle to 70's load. I would like to have my build OC but with temps like scares me.