Meg is a grand looking girl, very keen! A few suggestions. She has the interest and the power but does not have a "handle", she doesn't listen. This may be a result of her experiences with her previous owner. If she were mine, I would go back to the very beginning and teach her the basic commands. Sit, lie down, walk on, etc. and all this would be on a line/lead. I would not let her see a sheep for a good while. Once she is responding well on line, I would then keep her on line and go out into the field where she can see sheep (a distraction) and continue the on line training until she is consistent. Dogs to not generalize commands. So, when you train a command, let's say "sit", you start in an area with no distractions (perhaps in the barn without sheep). Then you go outside with a few distractions, then perhaps out by the road with traffic as a distraction, and then perhaps in the yard with children running and shouting. Finally, you go out by the pasture by the sheep, not in the field and then finally go into the field with the sheep. You train the command in at least 4 or 5 different setting with increasing distractions and eventually Meg realizes that "sit" means "sit" in all situations. If she backslides a bit, then you go back to the previous location with less distractions and work again until she is good then move on up. Also, give the command once and then follow through to make sure she does the command. Repetitive commands teaches the dog to ignore you. Tell her once and then follow through for her to demonstrate the command. Also, "stay" is an unnecessary command. "Sit" means sit until you decide it is time for her to move on. She does not get to decide when "sit" is done. Same with "lie down". She should remain so until told to "walk on", etc. She has to be consistent on lead until you even consider going off lead. At any time she regresses, go back to the previous level. Once you decide to show her sheep off lead, I would have the sheep in a round pen, say 6 to 8 meters diameter, so the sheep can move away but she cannot get to them. Have a very long line, 8 meters, and let it trail behind her. If she does not listen, then you can grab the line and have control and reinforce the command she missed. Once she is handling sheep in the pen well, then I would move onto a small group free perhaps inside your shed or a very small paddock with her on long line first and then offline. Once she is good there then progress to larger paddock and perhaps more sheep. (Goes back to increasing the distractions and training the same commands in multiple locations until she generalizes the work at hand). I realize this is a very slow process but, in her case, I think she was allowed to form bad habits, and these will be hard to overcome. Bad habits/behaviors are not forgotten, they are replaced with new ones /new training. And remember, when dogs get confused, they go back to the behavior that worked originally so she may go back to bad habits, and you may have to reinforce the new training (even go back on lead from time to time). Meg appears to be a wonderful dog but she looks to be a handful. She will be worth all the time and effort you have to put forth. Good luck!
Excellent summary, I deleted my feeble advice having read through yours. I think Meg is a worried dog judging by her tail between her legs probably needs confidence in her new owner, I am sure David will earn that in time.
I found Emma Gray’s patreon membership a huge help in learning how to train my dogs. If she is interested in the sheep she has potential. My young dog tends to go in like a bullet out of a gun. He gets them into a corner then doesn’t know what to do next. But given time and work he will be good.
There are just not enough hours in your days David: Family, Farming, Manufacturing and building that room in the house. Hope you can get a bit of help to get it finished. I enjoy your videos. 😊❤️
You have two good handy dogs there, I wouldn’t part with either. Meg just needs to start her training closer to the sheep, with less commands and you using your body movements to control the exercise, until she settles. All young dogs with a bit of push are frisky until they settle down after a few minutes. Until you have a good stop on her and a call off on her, leave a line on her, so you can grab her easily. Keep the sessions short 15 mins a day and call her off 3 or 4 times during the session to get her to realise that a call off doesn’t mean she won’t be going back to the sheep. With pushy harder dogs they need to feel they will get a chance to go back work and the trick is several call offs in a session tells them they will be going back to work which they love and they don’t know when the last call off will be. Many dogs become difficult to call off sheep because when they are called off 1. they aren’t allowed to work for days or weeks and it frustrates them.2. they are called off too soon in the session 3. the call off is harsh and the handler isn’t in the right position I.e. between the sheep and the dog.
Hi Wayne, Thank you for the advice and it makes perfect sense! Anytime I call Meg off she was reluctant and it was always the end of the session. Will definitely work on few call off's going forward.
Get those lambs weighted David - work out what can go now thats in the paddocks, what needs a week or 2 in the shed to go to the factory and what needs more time - colour code them by weight (20-30 30-40 40-50 kgs) so you know how to shed them off as one lot goes to the factory, so it is not a full reweigh each time you have them in their groups, even if they are all in the same paddock together easy to shed off it they are coloured coded. Make hay $$$ while the sun shines
David you asked for help and recorded yourself showing everyone warts and all - I think if you are having the training problem with Meg then Pups might have the same problem to many commands with no clear direction - Pups is a softer dog than Meg - different dogs for different situations - Pups when there are lambs about - Meg for the rams and adult ewes - You might have to give Pups additional training as you learn more as well - We are always learning throughout our lives, we never stop
Trusting that they get it n the dog will trust you. My dog WONT go in if I'm thinking about her pulling a runner. But if I say let's go inside! Without fear of her running . ..She just goes inside.
Haha David, we had a red kelpie who must have thought his name was “come back you bl👀dy mongrel” because before we could stop the utility he’d be off and round the sheep. He was fast and somehow we got the job done but we had no control. He was a good snake dog too. Good luck with Meg.
Your correct no lambs coming in from Scotland and England .getting the lambs in of the fields and house over 40 kgs is a plan that necessary and hopefully rewarding 29:18
Just a tip when starting off working you let her off the leash and gave her a come bye and she rang straight at them, rather than doing that keep her stopped and you go half way between her and the sheep and then give her the come bye while you get to the sheep also, it will start her outrun it’s how I start them all here
Thanks for the tip Adam. Problem is when the lead comes off it's really hard to hold her for me to get between her and the sheep. She's very revved up at the start but goes off her after a minute. I think improving the lie down command will help..
You are working in too big an area, for initial training. If you can work Meg in a round pen it will give you a better chance at recognizing her body language "tells" and conditioning yourself to give her commands properly as well you can immediately give her a correction, because she'll only be a few feet away. "Lie down" is the correction because she wants to work the sheep and you are stopping her, it's like a reset button. But you have to have a good down on her first. At the very least I'd recommend sending Meg to a good trainer, to get her basic commands down pat, then go and work her with the trainer. Then bring her home and continue training yourself with her in a round pen at first, then graduate to smaller fields. Find a trainer with an ecollar set on vibrate where they put the collar on you and every time you repeat a command they give you a buzz. You'll soon stop. At the moment you're so inconsistent in your commands and can't actually read your dog, nor read where your dog is in relation to the sheep as to when you should give the next command; you aren't actually working with Meg, you are working against her. Unless you have someone correct you when you repeat commands you will have a hard time breaking the habit. I do agree with you she has a lot of potential, but as your goal is not to become a sheepdog trainer, my advice for Meg's sanity, would still be to pay a reputable exceptionally good sheepdog trainer, (do not leave her in the hands of someone mediocre) to fully train her and then take lessons with her at the trainers, then when you get her home you can enjoy her out in the fields and she can work for you every day instead of spending it in a kennel for another year, while you try to train her to a trustworthy level.
I know your lambs were every heavy there, but you mentioned they weren’t thriving for awhile and had gave loads of meal! In my opinion that’s down to your hay! Hay fills the stomach so they don’t eat as much meal! We feed straw for roughage and the lambs will spend more time eating meal putting on weight, instead of lying around full of hay! That’s just what we found anyway! Keep up the good work!
Thanks Patrick, no problem with them thriving once their all eating. I know what you mean about the hay & I've heard of some farmer feeding meal only & no roughage. Don't think I would risk it but would definitely give the straw a go!
I’d get sorted with all the commands in your outside yards there with 3 or 4 sheep, nice in close work, take your garden rake to block her off the sheep and guide her the right way with the commands, you’ll make great strides quick and once she has confidence in what your saying then go to a bigger and bigger area till your out in the field. I’ve often wondered if you could have a mezzanine in your sheds to stack your hay on, give you more sheep space under since you can grab bales with the digger?
Thanks Colin, I will definitely try work Meg a little closer for now! I'm sure the mezzanine floor would work as floor space is always an issue especially now with a shed fill of hay!
Simple put paw in collar makes her not as confident and tired quicker so you have time to get on top of her and slow her down and get her to sit and keep her listening to you if she listen she will do anything
Great video again! Do you think the lamb prices will stay strong or get even better now on the run up to Xmas and then on the run up to Ramadan and Easter in March / April time?
They are only going one way in my opinion but it's a gamble when buying store lambs but I'm hanging on and that's really what this Sunday's video is about...
You didn’t seem to do much wrong with her there, maybe just let her off a bit closer to the sheep but bar that I didn’t see much wrong. Putting sides on her and getting her to stop and come back are your first steps generally. Then again I’m no expert either. 😂
Depends on the time of year. 21kg early in the year up 23kg this time of year. Our fat cover are graded from 1 lean to 5 very fat. I've yet to have a lamb over a 4 so not a major issue with my breed becoming over fat..
I think pops is a fine dog David. You can be a little harsh on her as she's better than a lot of "good" dogs out there. The new dog will settle with loads of work once you get sides on her. Mine was strong willed too but a few hard days in a row quietened her.
Meg is a grand looking girl, very keen! A few suggestions. She has the interest and the power but does not have a "handle", she doesn't listen. This may be a result of her experiences with her previous owner. If she were mine, I would go back to the very beginning and teach her the basic commands. Sit, lie down, walk on, etc. and all this would be on a line/lead. I would not let her see a sheep for a good while. Once she is responding well on line, I would then keep her on line and go out into the field where she can see sheep (a distraction) and continue the on line training until she is consistent. Dogs to not generalize commands. So, when you train a command, let's say "sit", you start in an area with no distractions (perhaps in the barn without sheep). Then you go outside with a few distractions, then perhaps out by the road with traffic as a distraction, and then perhaps in the yard with children running and shouting. Finally, you go out by the pasture by the sheep, not in the field and then finally go into the field with the sheep. You train the command in at least 4 or 5 different setting with increasing distractions and eventually Meg realizes that "sit" means "sit" in all situations. If she backslides a bit, then you go back to the previous location with less distractions and work again until she is good then move on up. Also, give the command once and then follow through to make sure she does the command. Repetitive commands teaches the dog to ignore you. Tell her once and then follow through for her to demonstrate the command. Also, "stay" is an unnecessary command. "Sit" means sit until you decide it is time for her to move on. She does not get to decide when "sit" is done. Same with "lie down". She should remain so until told to "walk on", etc. She has to be consistent on lead until you even consider going off lead. At any time she regresses, go back to the previous level.
Once you decide to show her sheep off lead, I would have the sheep in a round pen, say 6 to 8 meters diameter, so the sheep can move away but she cannot get to them. Have a very long line, 8 meters, and let it trail behind her. If she does not listen, then you can grab the line and have control and reinforce the command she missed. Once she is handling sheep in the pen well, then I would move onto a small group free perhaps inside your shed or a very small paddock with her on long line first and then offline. Once she is good there then progress to larger paddock and perhaps more sheep. (Goes back to increasing the distractions and training the same commands in multiple locations until she generalizes the work at hand).
I realize this is a very slow process but, in her case, I think she was allowed to form bad habits, and these will be hard to overcome. Bad habits/behaviors are not forgotten, they are replaced with new ones /new training. And remember, when dogs get confused, they go back to the behavior that worked originally so she may go back to bad habits, and you may have to reinforce the new training (even go back on lead from time to time).
Meg appears to be a wonderful dog but she looks to be a handful. She will be worth all the time and effort you have to put forth. Good luck!
Excellent summary, I deleted my feeble advice having read through yours. I think Meg is a worried dog judging by her tail between her legs probably needs confidence in her new owner, I am sure David will earn that in time.
I found Emma Gray’s patreon membership a huge help in learning how to train my dogs. If she is interested in the sheep she has potential. My young dog tends to go in like a bullet out of a gun. He gets them into a corner then doesn’t know what to do next. But given time and work he will be good.
There are just not enough hours in your days David: Family, Farming, Manufacturing and building that room in the house.
Hope you can get a bit of help to get it finished.
I enjoy your videos. 😊❤️
Thank you Linda 😊
My little one has the same ear muffs im thinking of wearing it in the mart someday be some job for bidding with 😂😂😂
wish you all the best for lots of money for your sheep.
Nice to see the main man has landed he looks well
Yes pops is good dog
The new will settle down
Don't over work her take time you asked for help good
Great video❤
Thanks Martin, slow and steady wins the race 😀
You have two good handy dogs there, I wouldn’t part with either. Meg just needs to start her training closer to the sheep, with less commands and you using your body movements to control the exercise, until she settles. All young dogs with a bit of push are frisky until they settle down after a few minutes. Until you have a good stop on her and a call off on her, leave a line on her, so you can grab her easily. Keep the sessions short 15 mins a day and call her off 3 or 4 times during the session to get her to realise that a call off doesn’t mean she won’t be going back to the sheep. With pushy harder dogs they need to feel they will get a chance to go back work and the trick is several call offs in a session tells them they will be going back to work which they love and they don’t know when the last call off will be. Many dogs become difficult to call off sheep because when they are called off 1. they aren’t allowed to work for days or weeks and it frustrates them.2. they are called off too soon in the session 3. the call off is harsh and the handler isn’t in the right position I.e. between the sheep and the dog.
Hi Wayne, Thank you for the advice and it makes perfect sense! Anytime I call Meg off she was reluctant and it was always the end of the session. Will definitely work on few call off's going forward.
Cracking video as always. Keep up the good work lad
Only recently discovered the channel very interesting keep up the good work
Thanks & Welcome aboard!
Get those lambs weighted David - work out what can go now thats in the paddocks, what needs a week or 2 in the shed to go to the factory and what needs more time - colour code them by weight (20-30 30-40 40-50 kgs) so you know how to shed them off as one lot goes to the factory, so it is not a full reweigh each time you have them in their groups, even if they are all in the same paddock together easy to shed off it they are coloured coded. Make hay $$$ while the sun shines
David you asked for help and recorded yourself showing everyone warts and all - I think if you are having the training problem with Meg then Pups might have the same problem to many commands with no clear direction - Pups is a softer dog than Meg - different dogs for different situations - Pups when there are lambs about - Meg for the rams and adult ewes - You might have to give Pups additional training as you learn more as well - We are always learning throughout our lives, we never stop
Trusting that they get it n the dog will trust you. My dog WONT go in if I'm thinking about her pulling a runner. But if I say let's go inside! Without fear of her running . ..She just goes inside.
@@maryburton-majure5350 They do feel what you are feeling
Haha David, we had a red kelpie who must have thought his name was “come back you
bl👀dy mongrel” because before we could stop the utility he’d be off and round the sheep. He was fast and somehow we got the job done but we had no control. He was a good snake dog too. Good luck with Meg.
Hi David and Robbie, Enya might feel very well but she sure is very vocal and helpful today. All business 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
She is a great little helper ❤️
Another great video 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Your correct no lambs coming in from Scotland and England .getting the lambs in of the fields and house over 40 kgs is a plan that necessary and hopefully rewarding 29:18
Great video. Need more fabrication content. Love to see you make up a steel frame shed 👍
Coming soon!
Coming soon!
Just a tip when starting off working you let her off the leash and gave her a come bye and she rang straight at them, rather than doing that keep her stopped and you go half way between her and the sheep and then give her the come bye while you get to the sheep also, it will start her outrun it’s how I start them all here
Thanks for the tip Adam. Problem is when the lead comes off it's really hard to hold her for me to get between her and the sheep. She's very revved up at the start but goes off her after a minute. I think improving the lie down command will help..
Ya get Christmas out that room good video as usually
Good video
Thanks Mark
Great video David them lambs were big great lambs tho 👌
Thanks Gary 👌
Good job.... I think the best dog will be the one you work the most....
Good stuff
👍
You are working in too big an area, for initial training. If you can work Meg in a round pen it will give you a better chance at recognizing her body language "tells" and conditioning yourself to give her commands properly as well you can immediately give her a correction, because she'll only be a few feet away. "Lie down" is the correction because she wants to work the sheep and you are stopping her, it's like a reset button. But you have to have a good down on her first.
At the very least I'd recommend sending Meg to a good trainer, to get her basic commands down pat, then go and work her with the trainer. Then bring her home and continue training yourself with her in a round pen at first, then graduate to smaller fields. Find a trainer with an ecollar set on vibrate where they put the collar on you and every time you repeat a command they give you a buzz. You'll soon stop.
At the moment you're so inconsistent in your commands and can't actually read your dog, nor read where your dog is in relation to the sheep as to when you should give the next command; you aren't actually working with Meg, you are working against her. Unless you have someone correct you when you repeat commands you will have a hard time breaking the habit.
I do agree with you she has a lot of potential, but as your goal is not to become a sheepdog trainer, my advice for Meg's sanity, would still be to pay a reputable exceptionally good sheepdog trainer, (do not leave her in the hands of someone mediocre) to fully train her and then take lessons with her at the trainers, then when you get her home you can enjoy her out in the fields and she can work for you every day instead of spending it in a kennel for another year, while you try to train her to a trustworthy level.
Thank you for the feedback. Are you sheepdog trainer yourself?
I know your lambs were every heavy there, but you mentioned they weren’t thriving for awhile and had gave loads of meal! In my opinion that’s down to your hay! Hay fills the stomach so they don’t eat as much meal! We feed straw for roughage and the lambs will spend more time eating meal putting on weight, instead of lying around full of hay! That’s just what we found anyway! Keep up the good work!
Thanks Patrick, no problem with them thriving once their all eating. I know what you mean about the hay & I've heard of some farmer feeding meal only & no roughage. Don't think I would risk it but would definitely give the straw a go!
If you get Meg trained up will Robbie get the P45.
He wasn't that good in the mud last year 😂😂
I’d get sorted with all the commands in your outside yards there with 3 or 4 sheep, nice in close work, take your garden rake to block her off the sheep and guide her the right way with the commands, you’ll make great strides quick and once she has confidence in what your saying then go to a bigger and bigger area till your out in the field.
I’ve often wondered if you could have a mezzanine in your sheds to stack your hay on, give you more sheep space under since you can grab bales with the digger?
Thanks Colin, I will definitely try work Meg a little closer for now! I'm sure the mezzanine floor would work as floor space is always an issue especially now with a shed fill of hay!
Get the sheep and meg in a round pen, or keep meg outside the pen. Keep her on a long line. Good luck with her. It will help with control
Simple put paw in collar makes her not as confident and tired quicker so you have time to get on top of her and slow her down and get her to sit and keep her listening to you if she listen she will do anything
Good man himself
Great video again! Do you think the lamb prices will stay strong or get even better now on the run up to Xmas and then on the run up to Ramadan and Easter in March / April time?
They are only going one way in my opinion but it's a gamble when buying store lambs but I'm hanging on and that's really what this Sunday's video is about...
@ can’t wait. Always look forward and watch your videos as soon as they come out. Good video today too!
Great Irish farmer
You didn’t seem to do much wrong with her there, maybe just let her off a bit closer to the sheep but bar that I didn’t see much wrong. Putting sides on her and getting her to stop and come back are your first steps generally. Then again I’m no expert either. 😂
Would these not be better to take these to the mart?
Definitely some of them, I'll chat about it in this Sunday's video.
You could do with a "Mystic Meg" on your team.
Spread lime across in the pens - agrical ( no dust ) keep feet right .
You could be better in the mart with those over fit lambs. Great stock
what is your factory desired weight? ours is 27 kg on the rail with 3-18mm back fat. The boss lady is a bit of a hard ticket. lol
Depends on the time of year. 21kg early in the year up 23kg this time of year. Our fat cover are graded from 1 lean to 5 very fat. I've yet to have a lamb over a 4 so not a major issue with my breed becoming over fat..
Would you have gotten on better in the mart with them heavy lambs?
You’re a bit harsh on Pops many of farmers would be glad to have her
I think your right be lost without her!
Did you think of processing the heavy lambs to sell to family and friends or on the web 👍🏻💰🐑
Them heavy lambs are ideal for butchers, land those to the mart?!
Butchers wouldn't want ram lambs this time of year.
What is ave daily weight gain on what amount of meal per day.
I wouldnt b giving away free meat to the factory with them over weight lambs go to mart u get paid for every kg
Wonder you didn't go to the mart and not get penalised in the factory.
Hi
Would mart be better for overweight lambs ?
I do find with those killing lambs way over the weight you get better money letting them fight for them in the mart. No 23kgs there.
Hard to get it right .u want to weigh every two weeks.
I think pops is a fine dog David. You can be a little harsh on her as she's better than a lot of "good" dogs out there.
The new dog will settle with loads of work once you get sides on her. Mine was strong willed too but a few hard days in a row quietened her.
You are right, I'm harsh saying that about Pops, she has her faults but I'd be lost without her.....👌
@sheepschool365 you did a tidy job on training her. She has a big outrun. Did you try run 2 together yet?