The oxford comma is the difference between going to a party with the strippers, Stalin, and Lenin, and going to a party with the strippers, Stalin and Lenin.
Extravagant Sobriquet you can choose to leave it out but any reasonable person would accompany such a choice understanding that it is you who is breaking the rules of grammar bc those state that in a list, a comma goes before the and. I learned this from a grammar textbook 40 years ago. It’s not that hard.
People who don't use Oxford commas tend to also be the people who say things like "an historical" or "exetera." Research also shows they kick puppies more.
MrC0MPUT3R "An house", "an horror", "an helicopter", "an hill", "an hurricane", "an horse"... see where I'm getting at? "An" only applies when the H is silent, e.g. "an hour", "an heir", "an honest", "an honor", and (depending on dialect) "an herb." You don't pronounce history as "eestory", unless you have a really thick cockney or French accent.
That is Standard Indonesian Writing, two object in list dont use comma. Comma is pause, two object in list, "you and I" said without pause. Three object in list, 1) ballerinas, 2) obama, 3) putin, then: Yesterday I met Ballerinas, Obama, and Putin. Two object in the list, explaining the name of ballerinas, then: Yesterday I met Ballerinas, Susan and Stephanie.
Nobody has ever argued for an Oxford comma between two items. That's because "three or more items" is part of the definition of the oxford comma: a comma placed before the final item in a list of three or more items. That's the only time you CAN use an oxford comma, and that's the only time you would call a comma an oxford comma. A comma between two items is just a regular comma, and it requires two separate phrases with a subject for both (independent clauses). "I went to the store, and I went to the pool" vs. "I went to the store and the pool."
I remember being taught back in the first or second grade that the Oxford comma was the only right way to end a list. I don't think I came across this debate until I was at least in college.
I don't think the dash is an appropriate substitute here (or a colon, for that matter.) If I'm not mistaken the dash implies that Rob Lowe and James Vanderbeek are Vox's copy editors the same way that "Just ask Vox's copy editors, Rob Lowe and James Vanderbeek" would. Using an Oxford comma would separate things: "Vox's copy editors, Robe Lowe, and James Vanderbeek." That makes "Vox's copy editors" a group of its own separate from the names that follow. I can't think of any way to separate that list into 3 exclusive items without an Oxford comma that doesn't include changing more than the punctuation, but there may be something I'm overlooking.
+mthmehris I think the point is that Rob Lowe and James van der Beek are *not* Vox's copy editors -- and the use of the Oxford Comma makes that at least marginally clearer.
Ahsim Nreiziev Whoops, yeah, you're totally right. The lack of the Oxford comma confused me. Thought they were being ironic and saying that Rob Lowe was a copy editor. Of course, comma or no, it'd make it much clearer to put the names first in the list followed by 'Vox's copy editors'
I am from Brazil, here, we use comma a lot. The rule is: In the end you use the comma after the word "and", but there´s no use of comma after "AND", because and is also a separator. You can use comma in a sentence like this: He likes potatoe, bread, tomatoes AND (no comma here) naked woman.
I'm sure others have pointed this out, but the examples that you corrected at the beginning and the end were not contextually correct Oxford commas. Those were just superfluous. Oxford commas are only used when the items are in the same list, not when the first item is a clarifier for two others. For instance, the sentence "I met the ballerinas, Obama and Putin" implies that Obama and Putin are ballerinas. If they are ballerinas, this is correct. However, saying "I met the ballerinas, Obama, and Putin" establishes the ballerinas as a separate entity from Obama and Putin. Likewise, the addition of an extra comma to form "copy editors, Rob Lowe, and James Van Der Beek" erroneously suggests that the copy editors are a separate entity from these two individuals.I'm a tad disappointed as the clarification between these ambiguous structures is perhaps the most important use of the Oxford comma.
But the copy editors ARE a separate entity from Rob Lowe and James Van Der Beek. He's talking about the copy editors at Vox, who are clearly not celebrities.
webbie99jj Oh... From the intonation of the narrator, I thought it was suggesting these people were copy editors. I wasn't aware that these people were celebrities. The actual copy editor's name is Bridgett Henwood, apparently. Thanks. I apologize! I'll keep the original comment for posterity though. Just know that I realise that I misunderstood.
+Alina Lynn Haha, that's why we need the Oxford comma! It helps differentiate between lists of three people and lists of two people with a clarifier/identifier at the beginning. Without it, people will think Rob Lowe works at Vox, and new tv shows won't hire him!
It comes majorly in handy when one (or all) the items you are listing are composite. ''So we went out and had steaks, sausage and onions, pasta, and green and yellow salad.'' As stated... it signals pauses and visually divides the items you are putting forth. I like it!
Usually, commas coincide with pauses in our speech. These pauses separate clauses in speech the way commas do in writing. In lists, people use a pause before the "and." It's "Toast (pause), eggs (pause), and bacon." No one says, "Toast (pause), eggsandbacon." This is why I cringe every time I see a sentence without that comma. It's unnatural.
no, that's wrong. i can see what you guys are getting at, but no. the "and" is a type of pause in itself, like a final announcement. the reason americans like this error is likely to do with 'big show' culture. americans are used to announcers/speakers pausing before an "and" in speech. however, in writing such a pause is frivolous and more than redundant.
gerard aygun I'm not talking about a huge pause, just a small one relative to the pace of speech outside lists. As for your comment regarding Americans, I don't know if I've ever seen a more pretentious comment in my life. Big show culture? Announcers? Do you really think Americans model their speech on game show announcers?
yes, i do think americans model in such a manner. in many circumstances this attitude appears attractive. another commenter mentioned something similar, so i do think its a valid point. during 'proper' or 'important' or 'significant' text the use of the oxford comma is unrequired. i understand the purpose you've described - "just a small one relative to the pace of speech outside lists" - but this is exactly the point. the "and" is not outside the list. the "and" is used normally. sufficient pauses have already been provided during previous commas. e.g. dave and sue went to the market. dave, and sue went to the market. the "and" is enough in itself. nigel, tony, frederick, paul, dave and sue went to the market. the purpose of the comma and pause is to substitute: nigel and tony and frederick and paul and dave and sue went to the market. american culture is excessively redundant. they crack nuts with sledgehammers. its cool, but improper. monster truck racing is cool but not required when discussing the holocaust, for example.
gerard aygun Jeez, you are so irritatingly pretentious. "Proper, important, and significant?" Are you aware that The United States Government Printing Office's style guide mandates the use of the Oxford Comma? Part of me wonders whether or not you've even met an American, because you seem to be under the impression that we all model our every mannerism and speech pattern after vapid game show barkers. There are some Americans out there who only live for dumb reality shows, monster trucks, and guns, but very few I've ever actually met. EDIT: To address your notes on two-item lists, the comma use here fits with the pause model perfectly. When people are only saying two items, there isn't usually a pause. For example, "eggs and bacon." No pause there. Throw in a third item and it becomes "toast (SMALL pause), eggs (SMALL pause), and bacon."
I'm pretty sure Michael Rosen just had a doc about this on BBC radio 4. The show is called Word of mouth. If I remember correctly they trace punctuation back to the Greeks and verticals marks they placed on text to indicate a break. This was associated with Paragraphos which is where we get the word paragraph. I'll have to relisten to the show again but I think they discuss the comma.
My complaint about the Oxford comma is actually summed up in the end plate: "You want a pause for each item in a list" This is not true. If a list in a sentence ends with an "and" the bleed in speech is intentional. Think about the way the "and" is read, the bleed lets the listener or reader know that the list is coming to and an end. With the pause the Oxford comma intends, the end of the list more or less comes a "surprise". It also depends on the intended termination of the list. I will acknowledge that at times the Oxford comma does provide clarity. Though for most of modes of speech, and writing it does not. Press me for specifics: I will likely fail to provide them.
The word "and" does NOT imply a pause. Consider this sentence. "My parents, a nun and a priest gave me a dirty look when I laughed in church." Without a comma before "and" it's rather ambiguous and it looks like you are saying that your parents are a nun and a priest INSTEAD of a nun, a priest, and your parents all shot you a dirty look. Even if you drop the comma and list your parents at the end it STILL sounds like you are grouping the priest and your parents together and the nun is different category or something. So the implication that the word "and" automatically conveys a pause is just a shitty argument. Be clear and be consistent! That's the essence of grammar!
Not a native speaker but if my parents were a nun and a priest I'd say it and therefore write it like this: "My parents, a nun and a priest, gave me a dirty look when I laughed in church." Notice the comma after priest because I'd leave a pause in my speech that I'd not leave if they were three different people. Also the pause after "my parents" would be longer in this version.
What's the problem with only using it when necessary? If I order ham, egg and chips it's totally obvious that 'egg' and 'chips' are separates items. An Oxford comma in this situation breaks up the flow of the sentence IMHO. However in other circumstances an Oxford comma is vital for clarity. Can we just use our brains and use commas with discretion?
Why not just make it a rule to always use it. Commas don't hinder anything, they just make them clearer. Why can't English have the simple rule to have a comma at every item of a list. English is complicated enough. When skimming through a text, a simple comma helps you understand better.
+NewTroll but assuming Oxford comma usage does make this clear. If everyone used the Oxford comma, then in your first sentence no one would assume that JFK and Stalin were with each other. It's the inconsistency that causes confusion.
I think the oxford comma is important in delineating items in lists that contain multiple instances of the word "and", especially those with known pairs or groups. For example, "I like listening to Police, Simon and Garfunkel, and Duran Duran" or "My favorite Elgar compositions are the Pomp and Circumstances Marches, Violin Concerto in B minor, and the Introduction and Allegro for string quartet." Especially in that last one, the commas just make things look more organized.
I have a best-fit approach to using the oxford comma. If I think it causes confusion then I may not use it, but if it creates more clarity then I use it. Punctuation is just a tool to portray meaning and tone better in written English so it needn't always follow absolute rules.
I always use Oxford commas. I am not surprised that printers and publishers advocate for its disuse, because not using it saves them money. This is especially the case for newspapers in mass production.
In my language there is never a comma before the "and" so in these rare cases we have to guess what you mean, but I now rally appreciate putting a comma there, it truly makes it clear what you're trying to say.
When you're reading a simple list out loud (at least in British English), the 'and' at the end fills the the gap where prior items have pauses. You should always be careful with grammar before and after a list and, if you are, you shouldn't need a serial comma.
I use it, and I was using it before I knew what it was because it sounded nicer, and more correct in words, and on paper. Teachers always marked me down for it, and I occasionally asked why, but I never got a straight answer.
I'd only encountered this argument within the past few years. Honestly, the oxford common feels natural in many ways and can even create confusion when not used at the right time. To not use it usually means you need to add more words to clarify and it just makes more sense to have one small comma instead of two-three more clarifying words.
This is the most random video and subject ever, but as a writer I realised I love commas. They just allow for a more in depth explanation without using simple sentences.
This is the rule I learned as an editor and typesetter: If you're not writing for a publication which specifically states whether the Oxford comma should be used, then you may use it at your own discretion, so long as you are consistent with its use (or, if in your case you eschew it, lack of use). I personally prefer it because it visually separates list items, and its habitual use means not having to worry about confusion if one listed item is a phrase that already includes "and".
Which is easier to read? My three favorite comparisons are, apples and oranges, apples and bananas and bananas and oranges. My three favorite comparisons are, apples and oranges, apples and bananas, and bananas and oranges.
neither. my three favourite comparisons are: apples with oranges, apples with bananas and bananas with oranges. perhaps a semi colon could be used also.
When I have to explain the usage of commas to people I use the example of a compound noun, without the comma you're looking at a compound noun (such as bow and arrow), while with the comma you're looking at a list (such as gun, and rifle). The most important thing is to be consistent with the usage within a single document, which ever side of the issue you take.
The Oxford comma is useful when the writer might lose the reader with complicated text. It's otherwise completely useless in a simple list because the brain will automatically interpret the word "and" as a pause. There is no need for a double pause. Keeping the "and" is important to give the reader a queue that the end of the list has arrived.
yes ted, exactly. i completely agree. grammar, convention, logic and congruence. not: grammar, convention, logic and and congruence. if the text is that complicated, it ought be remade.
I always get angry when my teachers don't use the Oxford comma. They are VERY underrated and I LOVE THEM!!!! IF YOURE AN ENGLISH TEACHER AND YOU ARE AN ENGLISH MAJOR, USE THE DAMN COMMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay okay. I hate to do this, but I am actually quite vehemently against the Oxford comma because it doesn't function well in syntax. It creates ambiguity when you provide a long nominal clause in a list. Take for instance, this sentence: "I would like to eat the cherries, bananas, and dark chocolate bits with low sugar. " I know that since we are talking about this, you may not see why this would be confusing, but when first encountering this sentence, my mind would see the comma before the "and" and expect a independent clause to come after it. It is best to give one symbolic feature to one meaning instead of two to reduce confusion. In this way, when I read a sentence with a comma before it, I will be able to read it quickly and not be distracted from the argument.
I know its lame I am commenting on my comment, but... when we have these discussion, sound is not important - clarity is. My argument against the Oxford comma is that it distracts and reduces clarity. We don't use commas for pauses - they have actual syntactic purposes to add clarity to writing.
Since you guys made a video on punctuation, I might as well dump 2 video recommendations: "The En-Dash & Em-Dash", "That Space Between Two Quotations" (ex. "And I said: "Yo, waddup!?" ")
I don't know what the actual term to the second one is. I do know that some printing companies use it though. I recall reading about in some grammar guide...
I didn't know this was a thing and all my childhood I've battled with this issue of weather I should use a comma before the word and or not! Thanks for enlightening me! I'm never going to say no to the Oxford comma again! :D
To me, the Oxford comma is crucial to simulating how we list things vocally. "Red, white, and blue" sounds exactly how I'd say it out loud. "Red, white and blue" sounds like someone saying "red whiteandblue." It's probably just me, though.
Chicago Manual of the Style recommends the serial comma. This is the guide followed by major book publishers, so it's rules can be considered more or less standard. "Chicago strongly recommends this widely practiced usage, blessed by Fowler and other authorities, since it prevents ambiguity." (CMOS, section 6.18). The serial comma is also recommended by Strunk and White's "Elements of Style," which is the top selling style guide. (It's Rule No. 2.) The AP Stylebook, which does not recommend the serial comma, is identified with newspaper writing.
Vox, you left out the most compelling argument for the Oxford comma. If I were to say, "Ask your mom, a dog, and your dad" then the schoolboy listener may believe I am calling his mom a dog. Not very nice. This problem can be easily eliminated by getting rid of the Oxford comma. Now I'm still a believer in the use of it, but there are compelling arguments against the Oxford comma besides the flow of the writing. I just use it because that's what my mom, a grammar genius, and my dad told me to do.
Without an oxford comma, it seems like an interjection: A pirate, an officer and a criminal. As if it describes the first object. With the comma, it looks like a list: A pirate, an officer, and a criminal
In school I would be downgraded in papers for using the Oxford commas, and when I asked my teachers why they downgraded me they just thought it was just wrongly punctuated.
That's because most teachers don't care about facilitating knowledge. A lot of them, especially in college, just want you to do work their way, and will mark you down unless you do.
I use it consistently, my teachers don't seem to dislike it at all, some even applaud me for using it (my first language is Norwegian, and I use it when writing in said language as well)
The Oxford comma is often used to help clarify a complicated sentence. Instead of adding the comma after 'and', the sentence should just be re-composed. For example: 'I like my friends, James and Paul.' Instead of adding an Oxford comma, the sentence should be re-ordered: 'I like James, Paul and my friends.'
The Oxford Comma can also be confusing for example: "Just ask Vox's copy editor, Rob Lowe, and James Van Der Beek." This sentence could refer to 3 people or two depending on whether the commas following "editor" are referring to the name of the copy editor or another person.
I think that problem is best solved by placing "Vox's copy editor" last in the list, i.e, Rob Low, James Van Der Beek[,] and Vox's copy editor. Alas, punctuation lacks the special power of being able to eliminate all of language's innate ambiguity.
I like how the Chinese uses commas for lists, they have a seperate comma that's facing the opposite direction of a comma to use as a separation between things in a list. For example, Apple, oranges, and bananas would be: 苹果、橘子和香蕉。 苹果: Apple, 橘子: Orange, 香蕉: Banana, 和: And The comma itself means "and" so using the word "and" for the last item on the list wouldn't be confusing because the list comma needs to have the word "and" at the end to finish the sentence.
It's interesting to note how other languages do or don't use it - I know that French, for one, doesn't use the Oxford comma, and Chinese has its own special comma for lists only (a kind of backward-facing comma: 、) and also tends not to use the word "and," making the issue rather moot.
I find this odd because in lists like, "Bob and Jim" I was taught in school that you didn't need a comma with only two items but lists with 3 items needed an oxford comma.
It should be used at times. It helps in express some ideas better, but shouldn't be used all the time. Just say the sentence in your mind and if there's a pause, type the comma.
I feel like that's actually a misconception about the comma. Its not about pauses (although it can be a little bit) it's about the subject matter. When the subject changes you add a comma. Example: I didn't like the gallery, the pictures were really dull. You could also maybe replace the comma with this ;
We invited the strippers, Stalin and JFK. We invited the strippers, Stalin, and JFK. I'm not sure I want to see Stalin naked. Tell me the Oxford comma isn't important now huh?
I say as I forget to put a comma between now and huh. (You don't need the Oxford Comma with just 2 words though because there is no previous part of the list to confuse the meaning)
I think that the oxford comma is like this; "I love my cats, Jamie and Ella" article 1 = article 2 + article 3 "I love my cats, Jamie, and Ella" breaks that equation. If it's something that can't be compared into a group of the first article, like "I like planes, grass and fish" then it isn't *needed*, but if it can be, it is.
"This, that, these and those." "And" is not a subject within the list, it is a connective between two subjects. This, that, these, and those" "And those" is now a subject. No longer referring to "those". In the context of a list, commas are no longer breaks in sentences but substitutes for "and". This makes the list quicker and easier to write while becoming less repetitive. (This, that), (those and these).
You don't use the Oxford comma before every "and". Your example, editors Rob Lowe and James van der Beek, doesn't take a comma - the list has to contain at least 3 items. The rationale for it is that an item in a list might itself contain an "and":: for example:"For breakfast, I had toast, ham and eggs, and coffee.""
I would just point out that an oxford comma would rather spoil the first line of the final stanza of Robert Frost's poem "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening". The woods are lovely, dark and deep ...
It is extrage, while speaking I feel that the pause is more common after the "and" not before. Also the pause(s) can be placed around the "and" with many different styles. on my personal opinion a coma next to an "and" usually stands for more than a pause, as the pause around the "and" would be kind of made in any case, so a coma before an "and" just for a pause is more like an excess in puntuacion.
If there are only two items in a sentence, it doesn't require a comma before the "and". Ex. Rick and Daryl went on a run. However, if there are three or more items, it does indeed require a comma before the "and". Ex. Rick, Daryl, and Carl went on a run.
Depends. If it's a list of three or more, I generally use a comma before "and" like such: The Harmitcraft fans tend to get all worked up when Xisuma, Rendog, and Python get up to their shenanigans. If it's only two items, I skip the comma: When the first two Logfellas, Xisuma and Rendog, ran around taking everyone's saplings, the fans reacted badly.
Whenever I see sentences to illustrate the need for the Oxford comma, I'm reminded of all those famous bands, like The Comets and Bill Haley, The Supremes and Diana Ross, The Banshees and Siouxsie,....
Just that the example sentences they use seem contrived. Putting the plurals before the names seems unidiomatic with or without the commas. When he reads the sentences, the names sound like appositives regardless of how he punctuates. I think whether or not you are pro or con on the Oxford comma, the sentences used to show why we need it aren't idiomatic.
Your "copy editor" example (as well as the other example) is not the correct use of the Oxford comma. Oxford commas appear in a list greater than two: "The house's four rooms were painted green, blue, yellow, and red." Your example only includes two objects on your list, therefore no comma, let alone an Oxford comma, is necessary. This is an incredible oversight on a video about the punctuation and the person at the end advocating it.
From the examples (and some of the narrative) I get the impression that the author doesn't get the reason for the Oxford comma, which is that in a series there are sometimes multiple items within a set (a and b, c and d, e and f and g, and h), requiring a comma after 'g' in this case, and that such comma usage in cases when not so required merely provides consistency of style.
The oxford comma is the difference between going to a party with the strippers, Stalin, and Lenin, and going to a party with the strippers, Stalin and Lenin.
You know, that would probably appeal to a lot of people as stripper names just for the great story you get out of it
Both of those things mean the same thing
Oxford commas are 🦆 ing ungrammatical, you don't place commas before "and"
Extravagant Sobriquet you can choose to leave it out but any reasonable person would accompany such a choice understanding that it is you who is breaking the rules of grammar bc those state that in a list, a comma goes before the and. I learned this from a grammar textbook 40 years ago. It’s not that hard.
agree 100% but it also doesn't make sense to phrase it like that when you can just write 'stalin, lenin and the strippers.' no confusion
ratsalad why reword the sentence when you can just add a comma?
People who don't use Oxford commas tend to also be the people who say things like "an historical" or "exetera." Research also shows they kick puppies more.
and "suficed to say"
Not to mention "I no how this stuff works"
omg "Sufficed to say".
I use Oxford commas and I still say "an history." It just sounds weird otherwise.
MrC0MPUT3R "An house", "an horror", "an helicopter", "an hill", "an hurricane", "an horse"... see where I'm getting at?
"An" only applies when the H is silent, e.g. "an hour", "an heir", "an honest", "an honor", and (depending on dialect) "an herb."
You don't pronounce history as "eestory", unless you have a really thick cockney or French accent.
For me, two items in a list don't get it. Anything 3 and longer does get it though
^
Philosophical Hotdog yep.
That is Standard Indonesian Writing, two object in list dont use comma. Comma is pause, two object in list, "you and I" said without pause.
Three object in list, 1) ballerinas, 2) obama, 3) putin, then:
Yesterday I met Ballerinas, Obama, and Putin.
Two object in the list, explaining the name of ballerinas, then:
Yesterday I met Ballerinas, Susan and Stephanie.
Nobody has ever argued for an Oxford comma between two items. That's because "three or more items" is part of the definition of the oxford comma: a comma placed before the final item in a list of three or more items. That's the only time you CAN use an oxford comma, and that's the only time you would call a comma an oxford comma. A comma between two items is just a regular comma, and it requires two separate phrases with a subject for both (independent clauses). "I went to the store, and I went to the pool" vs. "I went to the store and the pool."
You’re right!
I remember being taught back in the first or second grade that the Oxford comma was the only right way to end a list. I don't think I came across this debate until I was at least in college.
"Just ask Vox's copy editors - Rob Lowe and James Vanderbeek"
God bless the dash...
I disagree on the colon as the subsequent list is a bit too short. Regardless, either would be better in that sentence than that blasphemous comma.
I don't think the dash is an appropriate substitute here (or a colon, for that matter.) If I'm not mistaken the dash implies that Rob Lowe and James Vanderbeek are Vox's copy editors the same way that "Just ask Vox's copy editors, Rob Lowe and James Vanderbeek" would.
Using an Oxford comma would separate things: "Vox's copy editors, Robe Lowe, and James Vanderbeek." That makes "Vox's copy editors" a group of its own separate from the names that follow.
I can't think of any way to separate that list into 3 exclusive items without an Oxford comma that doesn't include changing more than the punctuation, but there may be something I'm overlooking.
I prefer the parenthesis, at least that's what we use in spanish.
+mthmehris
I think the point is that Rob Lowe and James van der Beek are *not* Vox's copy editors -- and the use of the Oxford Comma makes that at least marginally clearer.
Ahsim Nreiziev Whoops, yeah, you're totally right. The lack of the Oxford comma confused me. Thought they were being ironic and saying that Rob Lowe was a copy editor.
Of course, comma or no, it'd make it much clearer to put the names first in the list followed by 'Vox's copy editors'
Kind of embarrassed about how quickly I clicked on a video about punctuation
Saaaame!
It's Vox! You're always gonna click it
Gotye
It's always good to be punctual.
i h\guess you were very PUNCTUAL!
My parents, Barack Obama and Michelle Obama don't use it so why should I?
Because you're a liar!
+Peshwin how so?
+Billsa He didn't get it :D
+Billsa without the Oxford comma, it appears as if you are claiming that you are one of the presidential daughters of the United States of America.
Exactly
I am from Brazil, here, we use comma a lot. The rule is: In the end you use the comma after the word "and", but there´s no use of comma after "AND", because and is also a separator. You can use comma in a sentence like this: He likes potatoe, bread, tomatoes AND (no comma here) naked woman.
It's the same here in Mexico. No comma after "and".
Same in Argentina. I think it's like this on all latin-based languages.
It's the same in Dutch. If you are listing things, there is no comma between the last two tings if there is also "and" between those words
No comma should ever be used after "and" like that. But the question is whether there should be a comma before the "and." And the answer is "Yes."
In the Russian we do the same.
I saw this was about the Oxford comma, and just had to watch it immediately.
Yassir Douslimi I just had to include a comma in my comment about commas, didn't I?
Comma splice. Rookie mistake.
Carlos was a little bit like Ackley, that way.
born an oxford comma, die an oxford comma
#MakeGrammarGreatAgain
I'm sure others have pointed this out, but the examples that you corrected at the beginning and the end were not contextually correct Oxford commas. Those were just superfluous. Oxford commas are only used when the items are in the same list, not when the first item is a clarifier for two others. For instance, the sentence "I met the ballerinas, Obama and Putin" implies that Obama and Putin are ballerinas. If they are ballerinas, this is correct. However, saying "I met the ballerinas, Obama, and Putin" establishes the ballerinas as a separate entity from Obama and Putin. Likewise, the addition of an extra comma to form "copy editors, Rob Lowe, and James Van Der Beek" erroneously suggests that the copy editors are a separate entity from these two individuals.I'm a tad disappointed as the clarification between these ambiguous structures is perhaps the most important use of the Oxford comma.
Thank you so much for giving such good examples. I was thinking the same thing.
But the copy editors ARE a separate entity from Rob Lowe and James Van Der Beek. He's talking about the copy editors at Vox, who are clearly not celebrities.
webbie99jj Oh... From the intonation of the narrator, I thought it was suggesting these people were copy editors. I wasn't aware that these people were celebrities. The actual copy editor's name is Bridgett Henwood, apparently. Thanks. I apologize!
I'll keep the original comment for posterity though. Just know that I realise that I misunderstood.
Why not just put "copy editors" at the end of the sentence instead? I agree with Kweli on this.
+Alina Lynn Haha, that's why we need the Oxford comma! It helps differentiate between lists of three people and lists of two people with a clarifier/identifier at the beginning. Without it, people will think Rob Lowe works at Vox, and new tv shows won't hire him!
I thought it was going to be about different comma _designs_...
Me too :D
except of course that would be maybe the most boring video ever produced
Well... in Mandarin, there is a punctuation, used to dictate multiple items... should we adopt that?
How can you think? You're a wooden bowl...
in your opinion maybe. but OP and at least 16 others seemingly disagree.
It comes majorly in handy when one (or all) the items you are listing are composite. ''So we went out and had steaks, sausage and onions, pasta, and green and yellow salad.'' As stated... it signals pauses and visually divides the items you are putting forth. I like it!
I can't believe ya'll didn't seize the opportunity to use Vampire weekend's Oxford Comma.
Usually, commas coincide with pauses in our speech. These pauses separate clauses in speech the way commas do in writing. In lists, people use a pause before the "and." It's "Toast (pause), eggs (pause), and bacon." No one says, "Toast (pause), eggsandbacon." This is why I cringe every time I see a sentence without that comma. It's unnatural.
no, that's wrong. i can see what you guys are getting at, but no. the "and" is a type of pause in itself, like a final announcement. the reason americans like this error is likely to do with 'big show' culture. americans are used to announcers/speakers pausing before an "and" in speech. however, in writing such a pause is frivolous and more than redundant.
gerard aygun
I'm not talking about a huge pause, just a small one relative to the pace of speech outside lists. As for your comment regarding Americans, I don't know if I've ever seen a more pretentious comment in my life. Big show culture? Announcers? Do you really think Americans model their speech on game show announcers?
yes, i do think americans model in such a manner. in many circumstances this attitude appears attractive. another commenter mentioned something similar, so i do think its a valid point.
during 'proper' or 'important' or 'significant' text the use of the oxford comma is unrequired. i understand the purpose you've described - "just a small one relative to the pace of speech outside lists" - but this is exactly the point.
the "and" is not outside the list.
the "and" is used normally.
sufficient pauses have already been provided during previous commas.
e.g. dave and sue went to the market.
dave, and sue went to the market.
the "and" is enough in itself.
nigel, tony, frederick, paul, dave and sue went to the market.
the purpose of the comma and pause is to substitute:
nigel and tony and frederick and paul and dave and sue went to the market.
american culture is excessively redundant. they crack nuts with sledgehammers. its cool, but improper.
monster truck racing is cool but not required when discussing the holocaust, for example.
notice how literally no one has liked either of your comments here
gerard aygun
Jeez, you are so irritatingly pretentious. "Proper, important, and significant?" Are you aware that The United States Government Printing Office's style guide mandates the use of the Oxford Comma? Part of me wonders whether or not you've even met an American, because you seem to be under the impression that we all model our every mannerism and speech pattern after vapid game show barkers. There are some Americans out there who only live for dumb reality shows, monster trucks, and guns, but very few I've ever actually met.
EDIT: To address your notes on two-item lists, the comma use here fits with the pause model perfectly. When people are only saying two items, there isn't usually a pause. For example, "eggs and bacon." No pause there. Throw in a third item and it becomes "toast (SMALL pause), eggs (SMALL pause), and bacon."
my high school English teacher owes me back at least one letter grade for all the points she took off for my use of this fine little comma
Hey Vox, how come you guys aren't on the Snapchat explore section anymore? Your snap stories were the only ones I looked forward to :(
I know!!! I was wondering the same thing!
A comma has a pause at the end of its clause, whereas a kitten has claws at the ends of its paws.
I'm pretty sure Michael Rosen just had a doc about this on BBC radio 4. The show is called Word of mouth. If I remember correctly they trace punctuation back to the Greeks and verticals marks they placed on text to indicate a break. This was associated with Paragraphos which is where we get the word paragraph. I'll have to relisten to the show again but I think they discuss the comma.
in brazilian portuguese,the comma is essential for the understanding of the language
My complaint about the Oxford comma is actually summed up in the end plate: "You want a pause for each item in a list"
This is not true.
If a list in a sentence ends with an "and" the bleed in speech is intentional. Think about the way the "and" is read, the bleed lets the listener or reader know that the list is coming to and an end. With the pause the Oxford comma intends, the end of the list more or less comes a "surprise".
It also depends on the intended termination of the list. I will acknowledge that at times the Oxford comma does provide clarity. Though for most of modes of speech, and writing it does not.
Press me for specifics: I will likely fail to provide them.
yes, i completely agree with you.
the "and" is a type of pause in itself. adding a comma to a comma is silly.
The word "and" does NOT imply a pause. Consider this sentence. "My parents, a nun and a priest gave me a dirty look when I laughed in church."
Without a comma before "and" it's rather ambiguous and it looks like you are saying that your parents are a nun and a priest INSTEAD of a nun, a priest, and your parents all shot you a dirty look. Even if you drop the comma and list your parents at the end it STILL sounds like you are grouping the priest and your parents together and the nun is different category or something.
So the implication that the word "and" automatically conveys a pause is just a shitty argument. Be clear and be consistent! That's the essence of grammar!
Not a native speaker but if my parents were a nun and a priest I'd say it and therefore write it like this: "My parents, a nun and a priest, gave me a dirty look when I laughed in church."
Notice the comma after priest because I'd leave a pause in my speech that I'd not leave if they were three different people. Also the pause after "my parents" would be longer in this version.
I love Vox videos because they are so beautifully made, and then a bonus on top of that is the fact that the topics are so interesting.
What's the problem with only using it when necessary? If I order ham, egg and chips it's totally obvious that 'egg' and 'chips' are separates items. An Oxford comma in this situation breaks up the flow of the sentence IMHO. However in other circumstances an Oxford comma is vital for clarity. Can we just use our brains and use commas with discretion?
Why not just make it a rule to always use it. Commas don't hinder anything, they just make them clearer. Why can't English have the simple rule to have a comma at every item of a list. English is complicated enough. When skimming through a text, a simple comma helps you understand better.
+NewTroll but assuming Oxford comma usage does make this clear. If everyone used the Oxford comma, then in your first sentence no one would assume that JFK and Stalin were with each other. It's the inconsistency that causes confusion.
I don't see why not. When you use it only when it's needed, it shows that you understand the Oxford comma.
"who gives a f*ck about an Oxford comma" shout out to vampire weekend
"I've seen those English dramas too. They're cruel."
Video beat you to it
First thing I sang when I saw the video title hahaha
Wow its about time Vox got the attention they deserve on their channel!! These videos are absolutely amazing!!!! Keep up the good work 👍
I think the oxford comma is important in delineating items in lists that contain multiple instances of the word "and", especially those with known pairs or groups. For example, "I like listening to Police, Simon and Garfunkel, and Duran Duran" or "My favorite Elgar compositions are the Pomp and Circumstances Marches, Violin Concerto in B minor, and the Introduction and Allegro for string quartet." Especially in that last one, the commas just make things look more organized.
But if you really wanna
Leave put that Oxford comma
Uh huh, uh huh,
Leave out that Oxford comma
0:08 "EEEEAND James Van Der Beek"
I'm jammin' to the African instrumentals in this video while listening to a debate that will NEVER end. lol Good job though. #TeamOxfordComma
Yeah man lovin it, I think it's Kenyan soukous!
best #
Punctuation in general is wonderful.😍
A panda walks into a bar eats, shoots, and leaves.
A panda walks into a bar, eats shoots, and leaves. 🌿
I loved the visuals in this video!
I was taught to use the Oxford Comma in school, so I use it in essays, sentences, and comments.
I have a best-fit approach to using the oxford comma. If I think it causes confusion then I may not use it, but if it creates more clarity then I use it. Punctuation is just a tool to portray meaning and tone better in written English so it needn't always follow absolute rules.
I always use Oxford commas. I am not surprised that printers and publishers advocate for its disuse, because not using it saves them money. This is especially the case for newspapers in mass production.
"Give me Oxford commas or give me death!" - famous American dude Patrick Henry
I always use the Oxford comma.
In my language there is never a comma before the "and" so in these rare cases we have to guess what you mean, but I now rally appreciate putting a comma there, it truly makes it clear what you're trying to say.
When you're reading a simple list out loud (at least in British English), the 'and' at the end fills the the gap where prior items have pauses. You should always be careful with grammar before and after a list and, if you are, you shouldn't need a serial comma.
I use it, and I was using it before I knew what it was because it sounded nicer, and more correct in words, and on paper. Teachers always marked me down for it, and I occasionally asked why, but I never got a straight answer.
I'd only encountered this argument within the past few years. Honestly, the oxford common feels natural in many ways and can even create confusion when not used at the right time. To not use it usually means you need to add more words to clarify and it just makes more sense to have one small comma instead of two-three more clarifying words.
This is the most random video and subject ever, but as a writer I realised I love commas. They just allow for a more in depth explanation without using simple sentences.
This is the rule I learned as an editor and typesetter:
If you're not writing for a publication which specifically states whether the Oxford comma should be used, then you may use it at your own discretion, so long as you are consistent with its use (or, if in your case you eschew it, lack of use).
I personally prefer it because it visually separates list items, and its habitual use means not having to worry about confusion if one listed item is a phrase that already includes "and".
I only use it in sentences with three or more objects
Which is easier to read?
My three favorite comparisons are, apples and oranges, apples and bananas and bananas and oranges.
My three favorite comparisons are, apples and oranges, apples and bananas, and bananas and oranges.
2nd
2nd
In ap style, Oxford comma is used in the 2 nd example only for clarity
I'd personally change the first comma to a colon and use the 2nd example.
neither.
my three favourite comparisons are: apples with oranges, apples with bananas and bananas with oranges.
perhaps a semi colon could be used also.
When I have to explain the usage of commas to people I use the example of a compound noun, without the comma you're looking at a compound noun (such as bow and arrow), while with the comma you're looking at a list (such as gun, and rifle). The most important thing is to be consistent with the usage within a single document, which ever side of the issue you take.
The Oxford comma is useful when the writer might lose the reader with complicated text. It's otherwise completely useless in a simple list because the brain will automatically interpret the word "and" as a pause. There is no need for a double pause. Keeping the "and" is important to give the reader a queue that the end of the list has arrived.
But why assume? It makes an ass out of u and me.
yes ted, exactly. i completely agree.
grammar, convention, logic and congruence.
not:
grammar, convention, logic and and congruence.
if the text is that complicated, it ought be remade.
I always get angry when my teachers don't use the Oxford comma. They are VERY underrated and I LOVE THEM!!!! IF YOURE AN ENGLISH TEACHER AND YOU ARE AN ENGLISH MAJOR, USE THE DAMN COMMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also think that using the comma for listing more than 2 ideas is stupid. But using it for more than 2 is ESSENTIAL FOR ME
I believe you left out an exclamation mark.
Ken Busch I literally do not care about any other punctuation or grammar tool in English other than the Oxford comma
It's you're not youre
Okay okay. I hate to do this, but I am actually quite vehemently against the Oxford comma because it doesn't function well in syntax. It creates ambiguity when you provide a long nominal clause in a list. Take for instance, this sentence: "I would like to eat the cherries, bananas, and dark chocolate bits with low sugar. " I know that since we are talking about this, you may not see why this would be confusing, but when first encountering this sentence, my mind would see the comma before the "and" and expect a independent clause to come after it. It is best to give one symbolic feature to one meaning instead of two to reduce confusion. In this way, when I read a sentence with a comma before it, I will be able to read it quickly and not be distracted from the argument.
I know its lame I am commenting on my comment, but... when we have these discussion, sound is not important - clarity is. My argument against the Oxford comma is that it distracts and reduces clarity. We don't use commas for pauses - they have actual syntactic purposes to add clarity to writing.
Since you guys made a video on punctuation, I might as well dump 2 video recommendations:
"The En-Dash & Em-Dash",
"That Space Between Two Quotations" (ex. "And I said: "Yo, waddup!?" ")
I don't know what the actual term to the second one is. I do know that some printing companies use it though. I recall reading about in some grammar guide...
Only other editors/writers think about this...
I think about this and I'm neither.
nah, I kinda hate writing but I love the Oxford comma lol
“oxford comma vampire weekend” :))
I didn't know this was a thing and all my childhood I've battled with this issue of weather I should use a comma before the word and or not! Thanks for enlightening me! I'm never going to say no to the Oxford comma again! :D
Good on you friend! :D
This is my favorite song. So great to get a history of how they came up with the song.
"Commas equal pauses..." but only in the absence of an actual pause like "and".
Without the oxford comma, it makes it seem like the last two items of a list are grouped together
wait, so you don't need to use commas in english? does that mean I am finally free?
To me, the Oxford comma is crucial to simulating how we list things vocally. "Red, white, and blue" sounds exactly how I'd say it out loud. "Red, white and blue" sounds like someone saying "red whiteandblue." It's probably just me, though.
I was always taught not to use the serial comma until I came across the argument in high school. I still don't use it today.
Chicago Manual of the Style recommends the serial comma. This is the guide followed by major book publishers, so it's rules can be considered more or less standard. "Chicago strongly recommends this widely practiced usage, blessed by Fowler and other authorities, since it prevents ambiguity." (CMOS, section 6.18). The serial comma is also recommended by Strunk and White's "Elements of Style," which is the top selling style guide. (It's Rule No. 2.) The AP Stylebook, which does not recommend the serial comma, is identified with newspaper writing.
Am I the only one who didn't know this existed till now?
yes lol
No
No, but I'm English.
Vox, you left out the most compelling argument for the Oxford comma. If I were to say, "Ask your mom, a dog, and your dad" then the schoolboy listener may believe I am calling his mom a dog. Not very nice. This problem can be easily eliminated by getting rid of the Oxford comma.
Now I'm still a believer in the use of it, but there are compelling arguments against the Oxford comma besides the flow of the writing. I just use it because that's what my mom, a grammar genius, and my dad told me to do.
Oxford comma all the way!
The funny thing is when you added that oxford in the beginning when it wasn't even necessary.
Lets eat Grandma!
Lets eat, Grandma!
Punctuation saves lives
*stops seasoning grandma with pepper*
Awww....
This is actually the first time I've heard about the oxford comma, it literally wasn't taught at my school.
Without an oxford comma, it seems like an interjection: A pirate, an officer and a criminal. As if it describes the first object. With the comma, it looks like a list: A pirate, an officer, and a criminal
In school I would be downgraded in papers for using the Oxford commas, and when I asked my teachers why they downgraded me they just thought it was just wrongly punctuated.
That's because most teachers don't care about facilitating knowledge. A lot of them, especially in college, just want you to do work their way, and will mark you down unless you do.
I use it consistently, my teachers don't seem to dislike it at all, some even applaud me for using it (my first language is Norwegian, and I use it when writing in said language as well)
NewTroll I go to school in the Oslo region in Norway, and I can confirm that varying teacher quality isn't exclusive to the US
The Oxford comma is often used to help clarify a complicated sentence. Instead of adding the comma after 'and', the sentence should just be re-composed.
For example:
'I like my friends, James and Paul.'
Instead of adding an Oxford comma, the sentence should be re-ordered:
'I like James, Paul and my friends.'
The Oxford Comma can also be confusing for example: "Just ask Vox's copy editor, Rob Lowe, and James Van Der Beek." This sentence could refer to 3 people or two depending on whether the commas following "editor" are referring to the name of the copy editor or another person.
I think that problem is best solved by placing "Vox's copy editor" last in the list, i.e, Rob Low, James Van Der Beek[,] and Vox's copy editor. Alas, punctuation lacks the special power of being able to eliminate all of language's innate ambiguity.
I like how the Chinese uses commas for lists, they have a seperate comma that's facing the opposite direction of a comma to use as a separation between things in a list.
For example, Apple, oranges, and bananas would be: 苹果、橘子和香蕉。
苹果: Apple, 橘子: Orange, 香蕉: Banana, 和: And
The comma itself means "and" so using the word "and" for the last item on the list wouldn't be confusing because the list comma needs to have the word "and" at the end to finish the sentence.
never been this early before wow this is really cool and exclusive everyone compliment me
Spontaneous HIV.
never been this early before, wow, this is really cool and exclusive, everyone compliment me.
You are about to be attacked by the grammar Nazis for this post.
It's interesting to note how other languages do or don't use it - I know that French, for one, doesn't use the Oxford comma, and Chinese has its own special comma for lists only (a kind of backward-facing comma: 、) and also tends not to use the word "and," making the issue rather moot.
I find this odd because in lists like, "Bob and Jim" I was taught in school that you didn't need a comma with only two items but lists with 3 items needed an oxford comma.
yeah, i was kind of confused about the first use of the oxford comma in the video.
Is that an Oxford style shoe on the Oxford comma? I love that.
It should be used at times. It helps in express some ideas better, but shouldn't be used all the time. Just say the sentence in your mind and if there's a pause, type the comma.
I feel like that's actually a misconception about the comma. Its not about pauses (although it can be a little bit) it's about the subject matter. When the subject changes you add a comma.
Example: I didn't like the gallery, the pictures were really dull.
You could also maybe replace the comma with this ;
Can we just talk about how amazing those colorized photos were?
Never use a comma between this and that, and always (use a comma) when the separate parts can be sentences on their own.
I learned that you used the Oxford comma indefinitely, so I'll use it regardless of whether it is deemed incorrect.
Nah, you don't need that pause when there is the "and". I think it reads better without it.
Now I have that song by Vampire Weekend stuck in my head ...
Whether it is writing a essay, book, or Journal. I always use the Oxford comma.
We invited the strippers, Stalin and JFK.
We invited the strippers, Stalin, and JFK.
I'm not sure I want to see Stalin naked. Tell me the Oxford comma isn't important now huh?
I say as I forget to put a comma between now and huh. (You don't need the Oxford Comma with just 2 words though because there is no previous part of the list to confuse the meaning)
I just don't understand why anyone would be against them. They are fundamental to a sensible language
I think that the oxford comma is like this;
"I love my cats, Jamie and Ella" article 1 = article 2 + article 3
"I love my cats, Jamie, and Ella" breaks that equation. If it's something that can't be compared into a group of the first article, like "I like planes, grass and fish" then it isn't *needed*, but if it can be, it is.
"This, that, these and those."
"And" is not a subject within the list, it is a connective between two subjects.
This, that, these, and those"
"And those" is now a subject. No longer referring to "those".
In the context of a list, commas are no longer breaks in sentences but substitutes for "and".
This makes the list quicker and easier to write while becoming less repetitive.
(This, that), (those and these).
You don't use the Oxford comma before every "and". Your example, editors Rob Lowe and James van der Beek, doesn't take a comma - the list has to contain at least 3 items. The rationale for it is that an item in a list might itself contain an "and":: for example:"For breakfast, I had toast, ham and eggs, and coffee.""
When I was in kindergarten my teacher told us we could put a comma before if we wanted to and that usually books didn't to save ink
I was just about to look up how to play Oxford Comma by Vampire Weekend.
I agree. Use the Oxford comma and write well if it creates confusion.
Rearrange the sentence so that copy editor is at the end of the list, so it doesn't imply either celebrity is the editor.
I would just point out that an oxford comma would rather spoil the first line of the final stanza of Robert Frost's poem "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening".
The woods are lovely, dark and deep ...
You'll notice that poems are a bit different than 'normal' writing.
+GayDicks420 good point, gaydicks420
+Zane Dietlin ... God the Internet is weird. I never thought I would read the sentence, "good point gaydicks420" in polite discussion.
That is because 'dark and deep' are a adjective pair within their own clause.
Ok, I thought I was the only one using the Oxford comma, not literally.
Loooooove the music at the end!!
It is extrage, while speaking I feel that the pause is more common after the "and" not before. Also the pause(s) can be placed around the "and" with many different styles. on my personal opinion a coma next to an "and" usually stands for more than a pause, as the pause around the "and" would be kind of made in any case, so a coma before an "and" just for a pause is more like an excess in puntuacion.
i just took it that 'and' provides the pause/separation instead of a comma as well as showing an end to the list.
I thought commas didn't go before "and" ?
No, they definitely can. (At least that's what I was taught)
If there are only two items in a sentence, it doesn't require a comma before the "and". Ex. Rick and Daryl went on a run. However, if there are three or more items, it does indeed require a comma before the "and". Ex. Rick, Daryl, and Carl went on a run.
you can. its one of the pros of not living in a dictatorship, you can put a comma wherever you, dam, well, please,
Depends. If it's a list of three or more, I generally use a comma before "and" like such: The Harmitcraft fans tend to get all worked up when Xisuma, Rendog, and Python get up to their shenanigans.
If it's only two items, I skip the comma: When the first two Logfellas, Xisuma and Rendog, ran around taking everyone's saplings, the fans reacted badly.
Commas don't go after "and" in a list, and in a list of only two items would also not go before the and.
Whenever I see sentences to illustrate the need for the Oxford comma, I'm reminded of all those famous bands, like The Comets and Bill Haley, The Supremes and Diana Ross, The Banshees and Siouxsie,....
I'm not entirely sure what your point is here...
Just that the example sentences they use seem contrived. Putting the plurals before the names seems unidiomatic with or without the commas. When he reads the sentences, the names sound like appositives regardless of how he punctuates. I think whether or not you are pro or con on the Oxford comma, the sentences used to show why we need it aren't idiomatic.
Your "copy editor" example (as well as the other example) is not the correct use of the Oxford comma. Oxford commas appear in a list greater than two: "The house's four rooms were painted green, blue, yellow, and red." Your example only includes two objects on your list, therefore no comma, let alone an Oxford comma, is necessary. This is an incredible oversight on a video about the punctuation and the person at the end advocating it.
When you get a creepy 30 second ad that can't be skipped. :(
From the examples (and some of the narrative) I get the impression that the author doesn't get the reason for the Oxford comma, which is that in a series there are sometimes multiple items within a set (a and b, c and d, e and f and g, and h), requiring a comma after 'g' in this case, and that such comma usage in cases when not so required merely provides consistency of style.