The Undead and Trolls in Norse Sagas (with Ármann Jakobsson)
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- Опубліковано 30 жов 2019
- Happy Halloween! Professor Ármann Jakobsson (University of Iceland) answers questions about the undead, trolls, and other paranormal beings in Norse mythology and sagas from Patreon supporters of Dr. Jackson Crawford (University of Colorado) in a Patreon-exclusive Crowdcast conversation recorded October 30, 2019. See more of Professor Ármann Jakobsson's work at hi.academia.edu/%C3%81rmannJa... (includes a bibliography of all published work).
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit JacksonWCrawford.com (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
Jackson Crawford’s translation of Hávamál, with complete Old Norse text: www.hackettpublishing.com/the...
Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Poetic Edda: www.hackettpublishing.com/the...
Audiobook: www.audible.com/pd/The-Poetic...
Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Saga of the Volsungs: www.hackettpublishing.com/the...
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I was speaking with an old German at a book show many years ago, and he said when he was a child parents would tell their children to "be good or the Swedes will get you!"
Leftover fear from the Thirty Years War.
One thing not mentioned in the "troll"-discussion is that at least in Swedish (don't know about Icelandic) "trollkarl" ("troll man") is the word for wizard, and trollkvinna/trollpacka ("troll woman/troll hag") is the word for witch. Although I don't know whether these are just later inventions based on the word "trolla" ("to troll/do magic") or something that has deeper origins...
Torbjörn Källström We here in Iceland use the name tröllkarl or Þurs for a male troll and tröllskessa for the female troll. I am from Reykjavik and our dominant mountain seen from Reykjavik is named after a tröllskrssa. Her name is Esja and I understand there is a mountain in Norway with the same name also named after the same tröllskessa. And I understand that it is locaded in the visinity where our fyrst Icelandic settler’s home in Norway.
Interesting, reminds of "Demon King" (魔王) in Japanese (I may read too much manga. Am in fact reading an isekai right now), maou. The ma (魔) part has a rather broad meaning and can include demons or witches. Mahou (魔法) is witch craft or magic in general. Akuma (悪魔) refers to a devil, or The Devil, specifically.
See my comment. The word was WIDELY used until very late and still used in everyday language. (eller hur? :) )
I've been to Iceland a few times and when you're out in the middle of nowhere, the best way to describe it is that I feel like I need to tip toe. In such an environment it's easy to understand how one would come to believe in something beyond the mundane. Magical place. Happy Halloween!
@free democracy that's exactly it
A telling story from an old BaIinese friend, who said “ people stopped seeing dogs with human faces when electricity was introduced. It was common before.”
What a great interview. I like how easy you are on your guest. You give them plenty of room, don't interrupt them, but offer your own knowledge and plenty of humor.
For everyone interested: Professor Ármann Jakobsson offers (some of) his literature on his website as free downloads.
This made my day. Thank you.
Lol the "stats of a troll", its those dang d&d players. Though imagine a roleplaying game where trolls had the powers they do in translated texts. The whole party would be so confused as they get killed by the shapechanging homeless man they payed no mind too.
Lol you totally mentioned d&d later in the video.
Don't mind me actually watching this vídeo for game-prep inspiration
Two brilliant minds brought together for a remarkable hour.
Thank you so much for gifting us with such an opportunity.
The way he speaks about us wrongly thinking as trolls almost as a species, reminds me of how people think about fairies now too. Fey meant enchanted, so it referred more to an unspecified supernatural being, rather the specific winged fairy image we hold in our minds today.
@J T Elf is a Germanic word but my own theory is also that fairies and elves are the same thing. My guess is they evolved out of a general Indo-European belief that the dead inhabited natural spaces that had special significance like burial mounds, hence the idea that the fey live underground or inside the earth somehow. Neither elves nor fairies have a specific form but they're often associated with the Otherworld and places of burial. It's also worth remembering that Celtic and Germanic speaking peoples have shared a continent for thousands of years and theres always been a lot of cultural exchange, meaning concepts like fairy, elf, dwarf, and troll were ever really fixed and may broadly refer to the same thing.
I think saying that troll is just general term for something strange and scary is probably right, so elves/fairies qualify as trolls because they're very strange and scary.
Fey and fairy mean different things to me personally, and fairy is much narrower than fey.
this is AMAZING!!!!! Thank you for sharing this special video for your Patreon supporters.. Thank you!!!
Great Video! Thank you for this interview. I am a huge fan of Ármann's work, constantly coming across it in my research. It was very nice to have such a civil conversation between two scholars
The discussion on the translation of "dragur" or the undead in Icelandic and Old Norse traditions was interesting. I would settle on "revenant" being the best English translation, the emphasis of the corporeal undead returning to haunt the living. However, it is a somewhat more obscure term.
Incredibly interesting video, absolute delight!
Damn. Can't put my finger on it but I get a really good vibe from Professor Jakobsson. He seems like a cool dude
How did I not know about this channel, this is awesome I could listen to this for hours.
This was a really interesting discussion! Thanks for the content :)
Such an Interesting topic. Keep it up!
Fantastic presentation. Thank you both!
Thank you for this !
Great video! Happy Halloween everyone!
Great content!
It would be helpful to have a glossary! TYVM for the fine discussion.
And interesting note on the blueness associated with the corpse/undead. The University of Alaska Fairbanks has a well documented steppe bison mummy that they call "Babe" ( the name of Paul Bunyons Blue ox) because when it was discovered thawing out of a glacier the bacterial/flora gave it a distinctive blue color. Iceland/Alaska share a similar climate. I wonder of old/ancient corpses maybe actually appeared Blue.
Corpses always have a bluish tint to them. We don't normally see corpses directly anymore, so this knowledge is no longer common. Today, when people see corpses, they're either fake, as in movies and television, or they are coated in makeup, as seen at open-casket funerals. Living human skin (regardless of skin color) is partially transparent, and so you can see the blood beneath it, which gives living skin a pinkish tint. When we die, the blood changes in color from red to a black color, which is part of the skin's color change. The other (main) cause is livor mortis. Livor mortis is the process by which the blood drains out of the parts of the body which are furthest from the ground, and pools in the parts nearest the ground. Skin itself, with no blood in it, is greyish-blue. In death, the skin on the side of the body we look at drains of blood and becomes greyish-blue. The skin on the other side of the body becomes black. And, of course, the color of the skin is also tinted by melanin, which doesn't leave, but even so, even black people's skin has a blue tint when drained of blood.
"The debate has just begun" --Jakobsson
I like that idea very much
Skål :) and keep up the exelent work
This is a really great discussion! Great video to listen to.. two masterminds of different aspects of Old Norse knowledge, traditions & beliefs. Edit: Yes! I see that entirely too often Prof. Jakobsson... the women are seen as objects of beauty and allure but it is an interesting man that sees and recognizes a sharp woman's intellect! Much love! Thank you both!
I like how a big takeaway is that the supernatural are vague things, perhaps because no one at the time needed to be told or perhaps because they just were vague, without a DnD stat block. Then we also have a discussion of the general level of threat posed by the boogeyman.
It is interesting. Comparing it to Japanese, yokai is a very broad term that can refer to specific types of shape changers (henge yokai as I recall), or the undead like ghosts and vampires, or goblins.
Excellent stream and Professor Jakobsson was very articulate and precise with his answers, which I appreciated. It is interesting how the term "Troll" went from spiritual horrors like draugr into just this physical manifestation of tusked Orcs.
He and his twin brother became semi well known in Iceland in a popular high school trivia competition and were pretty much unbeatable. There younger sister was also pretty good at school and is now the Prime minister of Iceland.
awesome!
He released the spooky for the poor 😢
Happy Halloween!
Many famous passages from the Sagas and Edda reference nature such as „drangi" as a good man, and Gunnar's line; „Fögur er hlíðin svo að mér hefir hún aldrei jafnfögur sýnst" - and the incredible descriptions of Ragnarök in Edda. Ofc these are often metaphors and kenningar that refer to people but that's what the beauty of nature offers us; a way to express our feelings with metaphors. And the beauty of Icelandic nature is plentiful and has most certainly influenced the Sagas.
In the transcriptions from the witchtrials of Bohuslän as late as 1670:s, the accusations are always that someone is a "trollkona" (trollwoman) or using "trollkonster" (trollarts/trollcrafts). Words like "häxa" (fr. German Hexe meaning witch) is simply not used unless you are from the more educated class. A few men are on trial for being "trollkarl".
I found the bit around 28:00 very interesting that old people were not well respected in medieval Norse society.
It's not that surprising, considering the belief that you had to die in combat to go to Valhal. I don't know that one would give rise to the other, but they do seem to go hand in hand.
You could see the idea of aftergangr that someone has in a very literal sense overstayed their welcome.
@@merlith4650 Many tribal societies highly value the old. A very prominent example for a tribal society living in a harsh environment that makes respects for elders a prime value of their society would be the Circassians. Consider how the elderly are transmitting knowledge and tribal lore, especially in societies where there is no (widespread) literacy. And also let's not forget that in militaristic Sparta some of the most important men where those of the Gerousia, all aged over 60.
6:20 What word is more prominent than drauger?
Took a few minutes to realize that I have Ármann’s book open in a tab on my computer. Just a chapter in but cool coincidence.
this video is $(/&$ AMAZING! i loved it! plus i got to know about Mr. Jakonsson!
What word is Jakobsson talking about around 21:12-21:50?
Dísir. Dr. Crawford does have a slightly longer video with a few more attestations at this link: ua-cam.com/video/n4Bfs3Vpchc/v-deo.html but Professor Jakobsson's correct-- it's really very ambiguous as to what they actually are (much like the other terms in the video, heh).
10:00 this was basically my thesis for my anthropology paper my Junior year of college.
Jackson, could you add some subtitles of the terms you talk about to easier follow your discussion.
Could "troll" be the Biblical "giants"?
And did you discuss the "huldufolk" - similar to Norw. "hulder"?
Wow!
At minute 17. He mentioned a name of a woman from sagas. "A very clever person" and I simply can't hear her name. Somebody write her name for me herr, please?
That would be Guðrun Ósvífrsdóttir, from Laxdæla saga. Professor Jakobsson has a full paper on her (and her oft-ignored cleverness) at this link, if that might be of interest: www.academia.edu/1348128/_Laxd%C3%A6la_Dreaming_A_Saga_Heroine_Invents_Her_Own_Life_Leeds_Studies_in_English_new_ser._39_2008_33_51
@@stellanathaniel3198 brilliant thank you so very much.
There is a folk magic called Trolldom. I don't know much about it, honestly, just remembered it from stuff I've read before. Trolls seem to almost be necromancers? This was a really fasconating video. As always.
Troldom is more like evil magic. I don't know if they use the concept in Iceland, but they don't in the Faroes (Though there is a concept of being trøllabundin (Bound by evil magic/trolls)). It is much more of a Scandinavian thing as witches and wizards are known as troldman and troldkvinde (with varying spelling) in Scandinavian countries.
trollbunden; spellbound;fascinated. also bound by magic
I think there is a bit of a similar situation with the idea of the Irish faerie. What is a faerie or fairy? You can't really say it is just one thing. There's many kinds of them, they don't always have a set of well defined powers, etc. The terms álf and 'troll' seem similar. Troll, of course, connotes something negative and harmful, whereas álf seems more neutral. At least usually.
stats of trolls and elves are needed in games and comics bec people enjoy making them fight and need the stats to help make up stories and who might win.
When the icelandic bards would make reference to something, a ship for instance, it could not be referred to as a ship, rather a wave steed or something much more clever than that.
Vikings had a very complicated way of expressing poetry.
Icelandic bards were in great demand in European Royal Courts.
Other examples of European clever speech would be Cockney rhyming slang.
Zombie in english refers very specifically to an undead creature that mostly if not entirey lacks free will.
Interesting
That was interesting towards the end with the losing of limbs like the eye of Odin that then gives him knowledge. I wonder if Tyr losing his arm gives him something? Is this a common thing? I figure it's like the part of the body already having made the journey to that other world it gains something? So disabilities could have been seen in a very different light spiritually?
The reward for Tyr losing his arm is Fenrir getting chained. There's deep symbolism there.
But also, since it seems like they saw ghosts as material creatures, it's a very interesting idea that losing a body part actually means you've a spiritual link thru it. If that's so, we could see it as Tyr having both a material and a spiritual arm, which gives me some interesting stuff to think about...
I’m not sure that a body-spirit dyad was even a ‘thing’ in the pre-Christian North. It seems to be a distinctly Christian way of conceiving the human being - or the human-shaped deity.
The origin of Boogie Man is from the seventeenth century and is derived from the savage reputation of Bugis pirates from what is noe the island of Sulawesi in Indonesia.
Could there have been snake species in Scandinavia in earlier warm climate periods thousands of years ago, or even more recently? (Before 500/550 CE)
There are snakes in scandinavia. Just not very many.
@@Ossian-dr1vr Thanks! Hard to be sure of that kind of thing from Texas lol
In Minecraft all non human creatures are referred to as "Mobs" and to me that word has a negative connotation like troll, so it always surprises me when my children refer to something like a Cow or Chicken as a "Mob".
Fun little fact: his sister is the prime minister of Iceland.
in japan, my guess is vampires, undead, elf, troll, dwarf, etc. can be called yokai or kami. Some yokai or kami can be worshipped and these can be called gods.
Came for the nerdish topic. Stayed cause gorgeous.
I plan to read some of Armann Jakobsson's stuff soon, but a few things he said about trolls kind of jumped out at me as sounding like wild men. Being supernatural, but corporal. Being thought as shapeshifters and whatnot. Also, there is a modern term for wild men and its bigfoot and some of the researches for this elusive creature believe them to be more supernatural than zoological.
Like giants (not gigantes or Jotnar), or ogres.
If it's corporeal, is it really a ghost?
46:49 maybe Troll will have you for supper :P ye ye
Etymology certainly can have explanatory value. If we can show how an Old Norse word comes from a certain Proto-Germanic or Proto-Indo-European word with a broader, narrower or different meaning that can absolutely inform us when choosing between rivalling hypotheses about this word or its concept, especially if we contextualise it with other data (written sources, archaeology, other etymologies). Knowledge about a more distant past changes the probabilities of theories of later developments. Kinda like phylogenetic bracketing in paleontology (where when a new species is found this can rearrange the phylogenetic tree and change our assessment of later taxa).
People probably want to know those stats because they want to use them in some sort of TTRPG.
💙
Using Frakenstein for the monster makes sense because he would probably end up being given the surname of his creator.
Right up to 29:05 then gone!
He has a tough time interjecting there for a few minutes. Haha
how connected are these beings to clouds at varied altitudes..... dwarves are small low mists fog clouds or gases in caves, elfes alps are the higher clouds winds storms mountain height clouds...... looking like they enter stone or distant mountains or the seas..... sickness is easily gained from cold fog winds?
drauger or dew... mist fog cloud vapor spirit
The whole being in two places at once that he talked about sounds exactly like astral travel and is present in many a werewolf myths as well
I'm not a hundred percent certain about the norse tradition, but I recall reading an account about witches during the colonial period and even earlier during the inquisitorial period near Spain, and witches would often leave their bodies in the forms of animals. Good witches even gave accounts of their souls "riding" animals to fight other evil witches. Some evidence of being a witch was someone observing the accused witch of being in a death like sleep until an animal 'familiar' returned to the witch with their absent spirit. I wonder if this method of soul travel/transformation was what was envisioned by some form of werewolves. That rather than transforming into wolves, their souls entered into the skins of wolves and they ran around that way while their human bodies waited for them to come back.
I think I even remember a witch trial where the witch was accused of having her soul be in an animal while she was on trial saying that her human body was being moved by some foul magic while her soul was watching from a crow overhead. So, that could be another method of being in two places at once.
29:00 Golden!
58:58 Guðbrand whoseson?
Guðbrandur Vigfússon
Thank you both!
About elves, I forget if you brought this up in your previous video about elves, but I think I remember hearing somewhere that the concept of elves might be foreign to Scandinavia and is a tagalong concept from contact with other cultures, similar to the Vanir. (and who is king of elfland? Frey the Vanir) It's tempting to interpret elves as a distant echo of the Mediterranean Dryad or Nymph, or the Gaelic Sidhe/Sith, or even the Indian Yaksha, but who the heck knows or could ever know? If you want to learn about elves, you're better off looking for English or German sources, which suggests to me that Norse sources are vague about elves because elves are not native to Scandinavia. But I'm not a professor, just an enthusiast, I'd be eager to hear a more informed position.
Havamal (71) mention some things that might be seen as disabilities. Blindness and lost limbs, but in the context of how they might overcome those hindrances.
Their capability is mentioned rather than focusing on the problems, I wondered if that was so they wouldn't be looked down upon.
And doesn't Loki mock Tyr for loosing his hand. Seems you are not less of a (hu)man if you have some ”disability” just quirky or not in the strickt sense like the others.
This is the link to the Disability Before Disability project that Professor Jakobsson is a part of and mentions in the video, if that might be of interest: twitter.com/DbeforeDhi
You should go on Joe Rogens podcast.
(Everybody liked that)
as Christians, we are still dealing with ambiguity *now*. I can only imagine how vague the pagan religions must get
Well, you'd know which god to blame
Very interesting, it may be a strange comparison but in modern satanism Satan is not a being to worship but rather a the concept of the other path. To make one doubt what they are told and challenge the common knowledge of what is good.
The Screwtape Letters reads like an inadvertent whistleblower’s account of such folly.
Apologies if I am being a troll and not just making relevant commentary: @25:00 the good Dr. Jakobsson mentions Hermione Granger from “Harry Potter” being in two places at once. In “The Prisoner of Azkaban” Hermione had a large class load due to her excellence in her studies of magic. However, she was having scheduling conflicts because her required courses for her academic studies began conflicting with her advanced-courses because the Professors would be holding these different classes on or about the same time of day. So, Hermione was given a Time Spinner - a time-magic device that allows the wearer to alter their point in chronological time without altering their position in physical space. (Gotta love magic that doesn’t need wormholes.) This allowed Hermione to attend her core classes and then use the Time Spinner to rewind her point in time so she could attend her advanced classes simultaneously. Thus, via time-magic Hermione appeared to be in two different places at the same time because for a limited time she literally was in both places.
I'm curious about what beings were the Trolls Thor was said to be smiting in the East to explain why Thor wasn't part of a story, like the building of the Walls of Asgard had Thor Thwomping Trolls in the first half of the story. I'm thinking these Trolls may have been maybe malicious giants. I'm also curious as to the nature of Trolls, Dwarves and Dark Elves, like could Troll be actually somewhat interchangeable with Svartalfar? And Nidvallir was the home of the Dwarves, but dwarfs are interchangeable with Dark Evles?
they don't care about the northern lights at least probably partially because there was nothing special about them when you see them every year. The norse probably got used to them,
Dragon could maybe be of Christian influence. Angels are often depicted as being humanoid, but Satan, and his fallen angels, are referred to as dragons and serpents. And so I wouldn't find it far fetched to refer to an evil or deceitful person as a dragon or serpent. I think a good example of this in modern culture, which is based off of nordic culture is Grima Wormtongue. Understanding that in old english worm would have been more so rendered as wurm or wyrm and meant so serpent or dragon. And so with a name like wormtongue he is effectively called forked tongue or liar by name. And so I kind of wonder if such a character, if written in old norse times, would have been described as a dragon.
That could just as easily be simply medieval european artistic conventions. Mythological angels are like really weird and are not humans with wings. So, I would think that this is simply more of a regional thing.
+
Seems norse magic was outside the normal average life, but occasionally happened to kings and commoners and it was sort of in the land and woods kind of randomly and happenstance or bad luck? But seems christianity seperated the supernatural into special places, i.e. heaven, hell, as a commodity thats limited access by special trained priests?
But in the 1900s seems magic /supernatural/ metaphysical was getting back to being accesses by the common people as counter culture or underground culture, but in the New Age commumities now, its getting main strean and commodified all over again and over saturated to where now theres special trained astrologer's school and herbal healer school and ayahuasca shaman school. So now who are the "normal" "commoners". Seems similar pattern in egypt too, the old kingdom, had special priests and magic was just for pharoah as god and in service to him, but by cleopatras time, in the later kingdom, there was alexandria, that was a whole city of commodified magic as a religion, exporting commodified "god's family lineage" idea, to the greeks and romans myths who developed complex god-family's lineages and importing the ideas of commodified versions of composite animal creatures like sumerian "cat sphinx gate guards" and "dog sphinx toilet guards" ("composite animal" book ref., 'The Centaur's Smile') which led to eventually every sumerian house had statues and figurines everywhere. And the first mainstream example of sumerian imports was the Temple of Zeus had bowls adorned with centaurs and with in 100 years italian vases were mass produced with satyrs and gryphons and centaurs, et cetera.
Is Troll another word for Trall or Thrall? As a slave.
Etymology 'thrall': Old Norse þræll, from Proto-Germanic *þragilaz, *þrahilaz, *þrēhilaz, from the root *þreh-, *þreg-, *þrag- ‘to run’, from Proto-Indo-European *trāgʰ- (“pull, drag, race, run”).
Etymology 'troll': From Norwegian or Swedish troll or Danish trold, from Old Norse trǫll (“witch, mage, conjurer”) (compare Icelandic tröll), related to Middle High German trolle (“spook, wraith, monster, ogre”).[1] From Proto-Germanic *truzlą (“a supernatural being; demon; fiend; giant; monster”). Norwegian fortrylle (“to bewitch”), Norwegian and Danish trylle (“to conjure”) and Swedish trolla (“to conjure”). Doublet of droll.
So I think it is a pretty clear no to there being a connection.
What questions, pray tell, have the humanities answered, that science does not acknowledge?
@@Catonius Hi, I have a degree in philosophy. My question was considerably more specific than what your answer implies.
I absolutely love this convo!! And Tolkien is like Lewis Carroll; they are a gateway drug to the esoteric. ❤ most of the dwarves in the hobbit are named after the old Norse archons. I noticed that while reading the Prose Edda.
Since this became sort of a major point, I just want to mention that internet "trolls" originally comes from the term "trolling" i.e. the annoying people go fishing for people that they can annoy. Just goes to show how idiotic the English language can be. Of course, people think of the annoying ones as like the monster rather than like the fisherman nowadays, so I think what was said about them is still valid. But as a linguistics channel, I hope you find it interesting.
Indeed. It is one of my pet peeves. Troll aka ‘trawl’, raking up the seabed until all is murky and sea and seabed become indistinguishable.
I believe the word Vampire 🧛🏻 🧛🏻♂️ 🧛🏻♀️ comes from the Greek word να πιει (Greek, nah pee) - to drink. I believe that transliteration of the verb να πιει over and over again caused να πιει to become ναπιει and eventually was rewritten as “vampire.” @Jackson Crawford I also believe that this occurred because of the mispronunciation of π by Anglophones (English Speakers). Anglophones pronounce π as (pye) or pie 🥧, but the correct pronunciation of π is actually (pee) not pie. 🥧 Thus because να (nah) looks like a (vah) put it together ναπιει = (vah-m-pie-r).
@@Valerio_the_wandering_sprite empirical data and dates?
Hey dude u would make a great guest on Joe Rogans show, in a way its too bad you didnt watch the vikings show, so you cant pick apart all the historical inaccuracies and other silly things in it (for a lot of kids today, most of their knowledge about vikings comes from that show i think)
Also, theres this cool channel called "voices from the past" here on youtube where the dude reads old letters and descriptions from the past straight from the source, but translated of course. for example he read a proclamation from king Knut of England to his people (or perhaps it was a letter to someone i dont remember). but since you speak old norse, perhaps you could make a collaboration with him and read something from that time it would be so much cooler in the original language.
Baldur and Hodur are glaring examples of the sagas providing contradicting sympathies. Hodur is impossible to define as malevolent, to the extent that the author surely cannot have failed to notice that they were eliciting the sympathy of the reader, turning us to some degree against the gods.
I personally think that Medieval Norse culture didn't have rigid connections with entities or species and a specific need for benevolence and malevolence. I'd even apply that to the Eddic Heroes who arguably both deserve and meet fairly horrific ends.
Whether this is latter christian injection or genuine pagan stuff is, I know, not clear, but many better attested early religions have the gods judged and ridiculed in a style that would be a risky herecy even now.
love the videos btw :)
😂😂😂
My strong opinion is that dinosaurs are bs and the monsters of folklore were real.
"Were?" :o