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Being from Alabama this more than hurts. For years and now what this ? What hurts me even more is the fine employees at Tiffin that helped to build this Company name. What a waste of years and quality control . Thanks for your honesty !
I don't know if it has to do with Alabama origin or with the manufacturer's manufacturing regulations (or lack of it), but I bought a Mercedes Benz R 350, manufactured in Alabama, that cost me a huge amount of money to keep on fixing. Nothing was a simple cheap fix, starting with an intake manifold, timing issues, all the way to a defective DVD player that kept me from using the GPS feature. I spent 10 K to keep on going until I finally sold it for way less than I paid. The result is that I will never in my life buy another Mercedes Benz, and will avoid buying anything manufactured in Alabama, just in case.
Some people will say stop blaming Thor, but Thor is an acquisition company and they acquire companies to make money and the only way to increase profits is to decrease product quality and that's done through cheaper labour and inferior supplies.
I have a Thor class C 1994 4 Winds motorhome...she was well built. Hanging in there well for her age...so glad she was well built when I see things like this.
The problem is if they allow these visible defects, what invisible problems are there? Electrical, plumbing, slides, seat/chair hardware, etc. Even worse, were any safety features compromised?
Well said. You know everything in these coaches is compromised in quality somehow. Tiffin is junk. Their frames are failing too. I don’t care if they make the frame they sell it.
Quality issues is exactly why my wife and I went with an outstanding pre owned Country Coach. Slightly outdated but incredible and solid craftsmanship!
Last year when we were shopping for a diesel pusher our eyes burned from the glues and formaldehyde they are using to slap these million dollar coaches together. Finally we drove 2400 miles to Oregon to purchase our 07 country Coach Affinity. We love it…
My wife and I had a Tiffin Phaeton built in 2022 and was to be delivered in July of 2022. We drove over 600 miles to trade in our travel trailer and take delivery. We had put down a $5000.00 non refundable deposit. As we started the walk-thru the exterior looked great, but then we started the interior. There were so many problems on the interior finishes and countertops we walked away from our deposit. I was under the assumption Tiffin was a quality product. I did write a letter to the President of the dealership and was able to get my deposit returned.
Why pay a deposit of 5k..and did not do the investigation before you buy the product..or doing the downpayment..is just foolish..for 5k$ you can get a auction salvage RV Trailer,that you can rebuilt...😂😂😂
My family (3 class A owners) went to both the Nashville and Huntsville RV show and we're shocked with the poor quality and feel of Tiffin RED, Phaeton and Bus. Those Thor cabinets made it all the way through the product line. The entire family just wrote off Tiffin as it's now just a Thor. Newmar is running away with it with Tiffins quality suicide.
I bought a 2023 Phaeton 36ft motorhome 8 mos ago and have been able to use it 2 weeks it was in the shop back and forth until July. We used it for 2 weeks lost hot water after 5 days and brought it home with a list of 15 issues after 2 more mos in the shop we finally got it back just in time for winter!! If I knew it was a Thor product I wouldn't have bought it the quality of the the motorhome is disgusting hopefully I've got everything fixed now. Thor owns 28% now the RV market do not buy any Thor product I feel like I've had a part time job dealing with this thing. My wife has cancer and we had trips lined up all summer hopefully hope she's going to be healthy enough to actually use it.
Well Bob made his money and in the process ruined the company. I own a wayfarer and just as bad. 3 sheets of quality control issues and not all fixed. This is very sad.
It is very sad how the Tiffin products went down hill since Thor bought them. I would not buy any Thor product. So sorry to hear your wife has cancer. My wife went through ovarian and uterine cancer and she has been cancer free for 31 years now. It was a scary time and thank God she made it through. I sure hope your wife can beat her cancer also. Prayers for your wife. God Bless.@@larrym1560
When the Tiffin family left Tiffin and the Miller family left Newmar, quality followed them out the door. It was inevitable and will never be reversed. We’re happy we bought our Newmar many years ago.
@@rankdill2841 that’s good news. I always had my heart set on a Tiffin as I just recently retired but this video kinda shied me away. Are you an employee of the company?
We met a couple with a new Tiffin Allegro Red recently and they’ve had a lot of issues with it. I toured it and really thought the workmanship and materials were not what I expected from a Tiffin. Thx for the videos. Really enjoy
Not just Tiffin, it is every RV company. I think Airstream has gone downhill more than anyone else, and prices are at an all time high. Cheaper quality, higher prices, great combination. Thanks for honest review.
I know Airstream sold a bit ago and quite possible Thor bought them and the quality I've heard is nothing like it used to be. My friends turned their Airstream camper van back with the lemon law and got a different on and just sold it at a loss. The RV manufacturing is gone down the tubes.
Love how you called this motor home out. That’s why I love your channel. Just went to the RV show in Salt Lake City and saw some of the same things on some of the 5th wheels.
We have the 2020 version of that coach and have nowhere near the kind of problems you pointed out. We love the floorplan and the neckbreaker TV isn't a problem because the two captains chairs at the front rotate and that's where we sit. (The passenger chair is also a recliner.) We also have a fireplace under the TV and a dishwasher rather than the oven. We did find some minor problems when we inspected the coach (which is always to be expected) but our dealer (King's Campers in Wausau, WI - they were phenomenal) and Tiffin took care of them. We've had the coach for three years this month and have had it from California to Vermont and from Canada to Texas. We did have a DEF failure but it was while we were near home and Cummins covered it under warranty. I'm not sure what's changing at Tiffin, but I hope they get a handle on it and soon.
As soon as we saw this video was coming out, we knew exactly which coach it would be. Greg and I were shocked when we walked inside this coach. Mr. Tiffin would be embarrassed to see the condition of this rig and know it was at a show. This does not compare in quality to the rigs we saw when shopping 2 years ago for our class A. Makes us glad we chose Newmar, but also sad to see this happening with Tiffin.
During 2020 and 2021, demand was so high that most manufacturers sacrificed quality to achieve quantity. Now that demand has dropped, they could go back to producing quality, but they have instead laid off workers and continued producing cheap stuff. I wouldn't buy a motorhome less than 15 - 20 years old, so so I know that I would get high quality. I recently bought a 1999 Tiffin Allegro Bus, for $30,000. Smartest choice I could ever have made. I look forward to see you guys somewhere during our travels.
Great review, very honest and fair. After 37 years in law enforcement for me, my wife and I are preparing for retirement in the next 12-18 months. We are looking to change from our 2019 40’ Keystone Montana 5th wheel and move to a Class A pulling an enclosed trailer to haul my new Harley Ultra Limited. Even though we bought our Montana new and it was built pre Covid, we noticed many of the same small issues you were pointing out with this Tiffin coach. We were very surprised that the dealership showed the unit without fixing several small but noticeable flaws on hinges, knobs, molding, wall paper, cabinet door alignment, and exterior seals around compartment doors and lights. We have owned a travel trailer, 30’ Class A gas motorhome, and a 5th wheel over the last 35 years. So we have some experience with RV’s, dealerships, and manufacturers. We successfully used the fact that the Montana was a 2019 model year and we were buying it after Labor Day weekend when the dealership was now selling 2020 units that were arriving on the lot, we also leveraged the many flaws we pointed out that needed repair before we would take it off the lot. Timing was right and we negotiated an outstanding purchase price. For the most part this purchase turned out to be a mistake on our part. Once they had our money the delays and excuses began and it took 60 days to get many of the small repairs done. Once we started using the 5th wheel it was back in the shop after every trip. Small issues that were allegedly fixed needed repair again, then bigger issues occurred with one of the axles and then twice with the 6 point leveling jack seals leaking hydronic fluid and system errors, etc. The repair issues now rolled into the Covid shutdown of the shop and lack of service and repair employees. Keystone was as hard to deal with as the dealership, honestly neither really cared. You know how it is, you want to tee off on them after every non-returned call, lie, rescheduled appointment, and every part always on back order. They even damaged my trailer tires on one side moving my trailer on their lot and had to replace two tires they punctured. But you can’t say anything, you have to bite your lip because you are literally at their mercy! Enough crying about the Montana, we use it at least once a month and sometimes twice a month for long weekend trips and continue to visit a repair center more often then we would like. So, we have done some minimal coach tours and have been drawn to Tiffin and Newmar Diesel coaches based on the RV communities reviews of both brands. We have made a few visits to dealers in CA our home state and to Nevada and Arizona. Unfortunately after retirement my wife and I will be leaving our beautiful home state of CA to retain our sanity, safety, faith, and financial stability. We are looking to pay cash for the coach and are not planning to full time RV, but will be using the coach an average of once to twice a month to travel through out the US. Obviously a quality coach is important and we are seeing much of what you saw in this review, poor craftsmanship and attention to detail. We don’t want to start off in a new Tiffin or Newmar the same way we did in the new Montana, feeling like our new trailer was the quality of a used trailer and missing trips or delaying trips because of shop time while repairs are completed. We learned a valuable lesson, the great negotiating points we used to save money on the front end cost us much more in downtime not using the unit or in extended warranty co-pays. We have seen a lot of changes in quality and definitely service in the last ten years. In the short time we have been looking at Tiffin and Newmar, we have came to the realization that we will most likely buy a 2015 to 2019 used coach with an extended warranty. With our budget being around $300k to $400k the new coaches we have looked at do not match the quality and craftsmanship depicted via Tiffin and Newmar websites, nor does it match with the RV communities reviews of both manufacturers for what we would expect in a new coach. I learn a lot watching your reviews and other popular RV UA-camrs videos. Unfortunately, I am not a popular and respected UA-camr with a loud voice within the RV community. Realistically, after buying a coach I don’t believe Tiffin, Newmar, or any dealership is going to make me a priority. We have always had a great sales experience, but the true test is everyday after you pull your new trailer or coach off the lot. What we have looked at new and used, it appears to us the better value is in a used pre-Covid built coach unless I were to finance an upper end model of Tiffin or Newmar, or look outside the two manufacturers. Thanks for letting me vent and I am all ears if you have any additional advice. I will continue to watch your reviews, thank you both for dedicating so much of your time to help the rest of us make informed decisions in the RV community.
Thank you for the candor. If someone has a problem with the issues that you've shown, the problem isn't JUST with the RV. "It is what it is". Keep doing these videos and never be a "sell-out" to glaring issues. We love the honesty! Mr. Tiffin should see this video, too. He would knock heads if he knew his name was being muddied by this shoddy work.
Guys, have you reached out to Tiffin for comments on this coach? I would love to see/hear their response about some of the issues you've pointed out on this unit AND if this was mfg'd by the "new" Tiffin. Keep up the good work! Y'all Be Safe!
Mr. Tiffin is in his eighties. He has been made aware of MANY quality issues with Tiffins coming off the line. Tiffin Facebook groups are full of these stories. He no longer owns the company, and the resulting difference in quality is very obvious. He’s more of a figurehead now, with credibility in the Tiffin name diminishing at a rate that nearly matches the decline in quality. Many of us don’t blame him. Mr. Tiffin tries to help customers with problems, but how much can he really do? He has a right to do what he wants with his life, and Thor was apparently there when he was ready to sell. But it’s foolish for anyone to place as much stock in the Tiffin name anymore. It doesn’t mean nearly as much as it used to. You buy a new Tiffin now, and you should be prepared to “rough it”, but not so “smoothly.”
We owned a brand new 2020 bus and had the same type of issues you see in this video! Exterior paint had drips. Air bag leveling leaked. The bay doors though seemingly solid leaked when driving through rain. Molding popped off when slides came in. Microwave was mounted incorrectly and sagged. Water came in the closet when driving through rain. Fireplace in bedroom was wired incorrectly and didn’t work and the wiring was a rats nest behind it. Beauty was skin deep for sure! The worst was the headlights! We drove once at night and could not see anything (no exaggeration)! Completely unsafe. It truly was one of our biggest disappointment and ENDLESS issues! I’m sure I’ve forgotten many of the details.
I like the fact that you will tell the truth about what you see especially since it may offend dealers and manufacurers but help us consumers in the end. Thanks
Lee Tiffin is the President of the Tiffin division. He’s going along with everything Thor has done. No one would buy them now, but the folks who don’t do their research do buy them. Such a shame for Tiffin
It's typical of what's been going on in the rv industry the last few years. Prices have gone out of site and the quality and materials used have gone down. Sad but it seems to be more common these days. Older used rv's seem to be more and more the way to go. To me, much better quality in the older units unless you can afford the really high end units. Just my two cents. 🙂
You are 100 percent correct. I own a 1998 32ft Excel fifth wheel and I wouldn't trade it for any of the new production fifth wheels. We have been going to RV shows recently and quite honestly I am disgusted with the cheap materials and low quality, even the 150,000.00 grand design did not impress. There is no way any of these new RVs will last the 25 years my excel has and it's still going, good as new.
Mj and Izzy I thought that's why people trust you and believe in you was because you two always tell your viewers the truth and what they should know to make a big decision like buying an RV....
I can’t be believe the condition of this Tiffin. I like Tiffins. I never seen a class A look like this. Hopefully they can fix the issues. Thank you Izzy and MJ for showing this Rv.
I looked at a high end Tiffin just last week. The first thing I do is inspect the roof. I was surprised to find butt connectors and pieces of cut wire embedded in the sealant. It looked as though they swept the roof before the sealant was dry and all that trash stuck in the dicor. Sloppy work to say the least.
@@anthonylicwinko9142 I placed that comment before the video was released. As a subscriber I got a pre-notification for that video once released. My comments refer to the Novi, RV show I went early Feb. and looked at Tiffin Class A‘s. Until now I considered Tiffin‘s and Newmars equally for their „Amish quality craftsmanship“ but it seems not any more. I do own a 2017 Newmar Canyon Star floor plan 3710 and I am very pleased with quality and craftsmanship. I rather do improvements to my current Class A than buying a new one. The MSRP prices went up so much. Even good > 30% discounts still make the new Class A’s very expensive. My favorite Class A is still a Newmar Dutch Star maybe buy a used one ☝️.
I was also at the MARVC RV show in Michigan last month, I looked at the Red, Open Road, and. Allegro Bus, I was very disappointed in the lack of quality and craftsmanship. Tiffin has definitely changed in the wrong direction. I also looked at Newmar, and was very pleased to see their quality was still there.
For sure I will stick to my 2013 Tiffin Allegro with only 20000 miles. My rig still look good and run like new. The quality is there. But I feel so sad to see this happening to this brand. Bod Tiffin is a very respectable person who work so hard to built a reputable company caring about customers satisfaction.
We noticed the difference with quality at the Hershey show! (Where we had the privilege of meeting you) We agree with you 100%. My husband was watching you guys and I walked in and asked is that a ForestRiver?
This is such a shame. Tiffin has always been one of my favorites, but seeing this is sad. The cabinetry has always been a strong point for Tiffin, but that looks awful! Every Tiffin I've ever looked at was gorgeous with beautiful cabinets. If I ever buy a motorhome, it'll be an older model around 07 or 08 because back then quality was a priority. Love the videos guys, keep 'em coming!
I have a 2016 40' Tiffin Bus with 110,000 miles on it. This is our second MH, the first being a Country Coach that we had for ten years and put 105,000 miles on. The Tiffin has been a good MH. We have had problems with it, but that kind of goes with the territory. We have looked at a lot of new Tiffin MH, at shows and on the road, and they just don't seem to be made as well as in the past. This whole decline in workmanship seemed to develop during the COVID years and when Thor bought out Tiffin. Just an observation on my part. We were in Red Bay in July and we did hear rumors that the service center was going to move, but they were just rumors. Did not hear anything about the factory moving.
I would never buy a brand new RV just for these reasons actually. And if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t even buy a production RV at all if I had the money. I hear horror stories of people not being able to use their brand new $300K+ rigs as the dealership works out the bugs. Not on my dime. And we love your honesty! Stay real.
We were fortunate to buy an 2019 Open Road in 2020 after going back and forth between Tiffin and Newmar. The deciding facter came down to liking the floor-plan of the Tiffin better. Even then the cabinetry wasn't really up to snuff (I've had to repair several drawers that have fallen in) but overall it's been great. Then we went to the 2022 Tiffin rally in Rock Springs, WY and the 2023 models they were "showing off" were a revelation. As this video said, you could tell when walking in that the quality just wasn't there, the details weren't there, the materials looked and felt cheap, everything was plane. This was a rally of Tiffin fans, loyal customers, and everyone we talked to felt the same, it was massively disappointing. Even the dealers who were there realized the reaction was not going well and started bringing in different rigs from further out, which were better but still not up to previous quality. It's very sad. Ironically we toured some Vanleigh trailers there and really liked them, the traditional Tiffin quality seemed to be on full display there. So it was really shocking to us when they canceled the line in early 2023! We're looking to trade this in soon, but we have no idea which brand to go to now... maybe Newmar is now best for ~35' gassers.
My husband and I have owned 2 Tiffins, purchased new, a 2017 Red and 2020 Phaeton. Both have had issues but I think more cabinetry problems in the Phaeton. Both have had slide issues. The Phaeton will likely be our last DP. As we get older, I would like to downsize to a class c but probably not Tiffin.
Great review of this coach. I agree there has been a lot of corners cut. I think no matter who makes the coach they will unfortunately cut a lot of corners resulting in constant fixes and extended warranties. I have no issue paying for quality workmanship but unfortunately in the RV world everyone goes into it expecting problems. I think the manufacturers need to alter course on that and produce the best quality product they can and stand behind it.
I have an older American Coach that is very well put together. I like the layout on this 23 featured, but my 19 year old American Coach appears to have much much higher levels of fit and finish. Of all the things you pointed out we have none of that on ours, even though it's older. I'm hearing that tiffin quality is slipping.
A huge difference between pre covid and post covid. Also, pre Thor and pre Winnebago purchases. We got our Tiffin early 2020 (pre covid and pre Thor purchase). We spent a year looking at Newmar and Tiffin RV's and both were very comparable in fit, finish and quality. My wife just liked the floor plan better in the Tiffin so that's what we went with. In our travels we have met a lot of other tiffin owners and you can see the 2021 and 2022 + units are not quite up to par. Even the paint job is not as smooth. Definitively, buy pre covid.
Fully agree with your assessment. We have a 2020 Phaeton 40IH which has had its "normal" share of quality issues, all taken care of or well supported by Tiffin. I can't say enough about the positive support I have received from all Tiffin employees. They will go above and beyond. I went to the Novi, MI show, just for fun, and the Phaeton and RED they had on display were both very disappointing, and I didn't even look very closely at the workmanship. I don't know what's driving the lack of attention to detail, but I'm not convinced that Thor is the issue. Also, pricing is getting stupid. Our MSRP was $380K and now a RED is significantly more than our Phaeton was only 3 years ago. Just glad we bought when we did and have what we have.
Thanks for making an honest video. I have the 2022 Red 360 and there are quite a few issues. I will be taking it to Red bay for full correction. sample. the vacuum wasn't working, when I looked behind the panel I found the hose was not connected. Also found the CO alarm was not even wired. some of the panels on the draws are a bit twisted not straight. And like you guys found the bathroom and bedroom sliding doors are off shaky. The sofa within a few days a seam came open. Living area I noticed a wet area on the wood from the AC. got quite a few more but will leave at that.
Like Klondiken we bought an older Triple E Commander and it is lovely and super quality construction. All solid wood not a picture of wood on thin pressed cardboard. Canada 🇨🇦
We agree with you guys, and first noticed it at the Tampa show that the Beautiful Former Tiffin wood work is no longer present. Tiffin is dead and has officially finally become a Thor-iffin, however the prices are still at Tiffin previous quality levels. What a shame, That’s why we will purchase a solid pre 2010 diesel pusher, ie: Tiffin, Newmar, Monaco family, American Coach, and early Fleetwoods.
We owned a pre-Thor 2021 Tiffin 38 KA and we loved that coach. There were a few quality issues, but everything was fixed in the Red Bay service center. We have been considering getting another 38 KA because we like the look of the new models. After watching this video, I think I'll wait until they can sort out the quality issues, or look at other manufacturers. Sad to see what has happened to Tiffin.
We just recently went through a new Tiffin at the RV show in Toronto Ontario and immediately my eyes were drawn to crooked walls! We were shocked at the overall build quality and it’s such a shame as they always known for assembling a well built coach. Now that I have seen it for myself Tiffin has been crossed off our brand choices.
We have a 2022 Open Road (gasser) that was built in 2021. IMHO it was built waaaaaaaayyyy too quickly. We submitted the order in late July 2021 and were told it would take 5-6 months to delivery. It was delivered to our SoCal dealer in mid-October. It had so many fit-and-finish issues inside (especially cabinetry) and outside (including paint) we refused to take delivery till stuff was fixed. Of course AFTER we took delivery and had driven it from our SoCal dealer to our home in Northern Cal, much more surfaced, including more cabinetry issues, non-functioning solar, poorly performing water heater (Truma) and screwed up slides. And then there were the four or five recalls we’ve had so far with work delayed by parts unavailability. All of the fit-and-finish issues should have been caught before our coach ever left the factory. Same with the non-functioning solar and screwed up Truma. We are not new to RVing. Before we purchased the Tiffin, we had a Phoenix Cruiser for nearly six years. We only had one recall in all that time, excellent fit-and-finish overall, and no major issues. We are extremely disappointed with Tiffin, and will never buy a new Tiffin again.
Yes I see lots of pore quality. Things like you pointed out plus things like using countersunk screws and not countersinking the metal they are installed in. Things like using those 3" long self drilling/tapping screws to hold 2 pieces of metal that might be .030 thick. Not painting or sealing wood in the structure or priming painting metal used in construction.
Sad to see this as I have an older Open Road..but when I went to 2022 Hershey Show I saw a lot of issues in a model I was looking at. I do know Tiffin does repair things but driving to Red Bay and waiting can be time consuming. I am really surprised at the wood work issues.
Thor has the downward reputation from their corner-cutting on quality craftsmanship, lack of attention to detail. If you don’t want to be called out for shitty craftsmanship, then start paying attention to detail! Thor has the reputation they’ve earned. Individuals who go ahead and still purchase RV’s produced by Thor, have no room to complain when their $300,000-plus RV starts coming apart within the first 3,000 miles. That is what happens when you ignore reviews before making your purchase!
I have a 2018 Thor Venesian 40a that I bought with 5,000 miles on it in 2020.and we Love it, it has had some issues but I fix most of them myself because I put 10,000 miles a year on mine and I don’t have time for it to sit in a RV dealer repair shop.
Bought Thor class a in20…couldn’t wait to get it outta our hands before it’s warranty. Found 15 stored tiffin with bunks we needed, she’s been a thrill to own, one solid piece of equipment we have already driven 20k+ ….hate to see declines all over our lands actually, not just here..Thanks, we expected THIS
I know that Tiffin, in the last year or so, was purchased by Thor, BUT the Tiffin’s would feel “embarrassed” at the “shoddy workmanship” in this coach. The good news, according to a recent issue of Tiffin’s magazine, Roughing it Smoothly, the Tiffin’s are refocusing their efforts on the quality workmanship that they have built their name upon. It’s too bad that this RV showed poorly, but as is customary for Tiffin, the staff and employees would “make it right.” I don’t own a Tiffin, and I don’t own a travel trailer, motor home, or any camping type vehicle. However, I plan on purchasing a Tiffin diesel in the future. Thanks for making, and sharing your informative videos.
You are right on in your assessment. This is NOT what I would expect from Tiffin. We've seriously looked at a couple Tiffins when we were shopping. I really liked the smaller Breeze we looked at years ago (and still we we bought). But when we got our current motorhome, we decided even the base level Tiffin was a step in luxury up from what we were looking at. As you said, this looks like a entry level unit. The austere bathroom, kind of cheap finish, and more-or-less basic interior is not what one expects from Tiffin and certainly not at that price point. I will say from your Newmar gas chassis review at the same show, it is clear that Newmar has done better in keeping their identity under their new ownership than Tiffin. Were I not familiar with Tiffin and this were the first one I ever saw, I'd probably cross the brand off my list altogether.
I got my Tiffin Phaeton in mid Feb. got a week in it in July came back with 15 more items to be fixed so it's been in the shop ever since. Bottom line I just put it up for sale on consignment will probably loose $100,000 I'm done with motorhomes Tiffin sold to Thor and they have destroyed the once fine company. Thor owns 28% of the RV market.
I had very bad carpal tunnel in both wrists back in the 90’s. I couldn’t even pick up a brush or a tooth brush. I was working in a commercial kitchen at the time. I didn’t have the time to play around. We did major catering. My chiropractor at the time treated me and taught me how to get the little bones in my wrist to line up correctly. I have not needed surgery at all ever. My Mom had surgery on both wrists and still had issues.
We bought a 2012 Tiffin Allegro Breeze 32BR and the quality is outstanding. I've heard and seen comments from current Thor based Tiffin's and I know Leigh Tiffin keeps stating that Tiffin is run by Tiffin but we can see that they have to use Thor parts and possibly designs. We are going to hang onto this rig for a long time, hopefully the MaxxForce 7 continues to perform as well as it has for 12 years.
We went to RV show in Dallas yesterday. Very disappointed in the current Tiffin products, from the Red straight thru the 45 allegro bus. In laws have a 2015 Allegro Bus that is amazing still at 9 years old. High quality that you would expect. These new Tiffins had shoddy workmanship and materials throughout.
I live in Elkhart County, Indiana. The RV capital of the world. I am a minor supplier to many of the top RV brands. I find these videos interesting. I do know that the pay is way down from where it used to be and that drug use is a big problem. I also know that from my experience, management in these local companies are very good people. However, most are owned by Thor and a very few others and must meet profit goals that are dictated to them.
We purchase a new 2022 34PA in the Summer of 2022. There was so much wrong with it (2 pages to be exact) that Tiffin agreed to pick it up and make the repairs at Red Bay. They kept our unit for 5 months! The repair people I spoke with at Tiffin were very nice and just as disappointed in the condition of our new Tiffin. We had everything from exterior paint issue to fit and finish issues inside the coach. I could go on and on. Tiffin delivered our unit back to us with our list completed. I would give them a 9 out of 10 on exterior paint repairs and a 10 on the interior repairs. Between the selling dealer and Tiffin, they have had our unit longer than we have. Bob Tiffin did extend our warranty.
We have been shopping for a motorhome for 4 years. We were not willing to pay "COVID" prices so took a break. Tiffin was our dream coach. This year as prices seem to normalize a bit we began our search again. Every Tiffin (we were shopping for Allegro Bus models) toured had the quality issues you are seeing in this Red Model. We were shocked to say the least at the poor quality of the coaches. In the end we have purchased a different brand.
Just one more example of how the RV industry has sunken to a new level of "to hell with quality and just grab as much money as you can!" RV manufacturers need to be held accountable for their actions and people should just stop buying their garbage. I'd tell anyone to avoid just about all of the stuff that has been built in the past five years and look for a quality used unit. If you get a used rig at the right price, it's well worth your time to make some upgrades such a new furniture, replace worn items such as a sink or faucet. We downsized from a 2012 Bay Star (Newmar) to a 2015 Winnebago Via and yes, the rig shows it's age a bit, but not that we've had it for almost a year, I can say that it was well built and should serve us well for quite some time. Thanks for producing videos that inform potential buyers of what to look for when shopping for an RV. So many of the reviewers just provide "walk throughs" that aren't any different than what the dealers produce. We need more reviews that point out the poor-quality control, especially with companies that were once family owned and know for quality and that after being bought by larger companies are now marginal in quality control and workmanship such as Tiffin and Jayco. I have my concerns about Newmar now that it is owned by Winnebago, which is also making quite a few rigs with problems. Keep up the good work!
Do not change a thing, regarding your integrity! We want “BRUTAL but OBJECTIVE” Honesty about what you are seeing about fit & finish, and lack of build quality!!!! If you say nothing, companies will take a country mile if you give them an inch!! The only way…. THE ONLY WAY build & design quality improves is if YOU HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE!! YOU GUYS DO YOU!! Stay STRONG, we - depend - on - you!!!
Wow! $350k with crooked outlets and uneven door knobs? At an RV show? And that's just what you can see in the living space. What about the mechanics and drive train? That's embarrassing. Someone at Tiffin needs to start knocking heads.
$360K for a new RV that will depreciate immediately after driving of the lot. Better to spend half the $ and do a bus conversion. Get exactly what you want built, safer to drive and operate because of USDOT build quality standards for commercial vehicles.
I have a 2008 Allegro Bus and I would rather have this due to the build quality than a newer Tiffin, even though its starting to have those little annoying issues pop up I know this was built better. In my opinion, the quality started to go down after they were bought out by Thor, as well as Newmar I believe. Not sure what the quality on the new Newmars is, maybe you could find and compare the new Newmar models with older before Thor models. Thanks for another great informative vid, friends of our were looking at Tiffin at the Daytona show and said all the same things.
We have a 2016 Tiffin 32SA and we see what you are seeing as far as a reduction in quality and attention to detail. We thought of trading but after seeing such a significant decline in overall quality and assembly we will keep ours. The cabinetry in ours as well as overall construction is far better than what Tiffin has rolled out in the last two years. As a Tiffin fan it is very disappointing.
I popped back this morning just to check I hadn’t had a nightmare whilst viewing your video. I would like someone to interview the Tiffin family for their own thoughts about what’s happening with their company. It’s worse than I thought as I saw so much more and I’m just stunned by the shoddy workmanship of an expensive class A motorhome. I don’t think you could make it worse if you tried & I know it’s been one of your favourite brands. If other companies go this route then I foresee numerous companies going into liquidation and leaving their customers with tons of issues to repair. It’s definitely the low mileage second hand market that is attracting me more. Perhaps a Country Coach or something of similar quality beacons and always with an independent inspection before and after the purchase. I’m completely devastated by Tiffin and just stunned by how low they have sunk in their craftsmanship. No nightmare here it’s Tiffin who should be having them. It’s a brilliant video of the quality of made in America in 22/23/24 if they last that long 😢🫣💥☄️🔥💫
Appreciate the honesty! I would have expected that the show models would be gone through to ensure they represent the manufacturer in the best light. Certainly doesn’t appear that way though.
I have a 2018 Tiffin Open Road. It's a truck. This is our 3rd MH and first Class A. It's a truck. I sold our 2013 Winnebago Aspect Class C with outstanding workmanship. While the cabinetry in our Tiffin (it's a truck) is good, the Winnebago was incredibly well built. Everything in our Tiffin truck works. I can travel practically worry-free because I spend thousands of dollars every year keeping it well maintained. Exterior paint on a dump truck is as good as the paint on our Tiffin truck. Two days ago, I had an independent RV repair shop install new tires. I heard employees discuss the downward spiral of Tiffin. Tiffin will no longer custom make their diesel chassis. Freightliner will make them and put a Tiffin label on them. Thor has sold off paint divisions and Tiffin's fiberglass division. I toured the Tiffin truck plant and met Mr. Tiffin. A member of our tour group asked why he sold the Tiffin company with its stellar reputation to Thor, a company with the worst reputation. He said it wasn't his decision. He had retired and the younger generation of his family had made the decision to sell out. While I like my Tiffin truck - I keep calling it that because, although on location it has all of the comforts of home, it rides and handles like a bloated cement mixer - when buying a motorhome, have fun. Enjoy the road and the great outdoors, and remember that your RV is YOURS. You have to maintain it and keep it up and make constant improvements. Keep smiling. Keep throwing money at your RV. I hope to see you on the road!
I watch y’all because of the content AND your delivery of the content. Don’t worry about the potential haters, be you it’s what we like…😊 I haven’t been in a Tiffin lately but (at least on this coach) the fit and finish was not worthy of the price. Hopefully the industry improves soon. Keep up the good work and thank you for the videos!
The entire industry has lost it's way, way over charging for the 2nd rate products they now produce. Good old capitalism at work, I hope it bankrupts all of them so the learn how to do and honest job building coaches again.
Tiffin actually builds a RHD version of these Allegros with the Cummins diesels for Australia. They are very much a niche RV sell one a month. Unfortunately they are a paved road motorhome and other aspects like the wood paneling is not well liked here.
They might have forgot to inspect that unit prior to taking it to an RV Show…that dealer should never have taken delivery of that Tiffin Allegro Red…their feet needs to be held to the fire also on this one…Don’t Pass on Poor Quality….Don’t accept poor quality…now they have to work with Tiffin Warranty Department because they didn’t do their due diligence…Thank you ERV for excellent review
We ordered a new 2019 Tiffin Red 37pa and picked it up July 2019. MSRP was $281k and purchased price $199,600. No way would I buy one now due to the Hugh price increases. The same one today is well over $100k MSRP. We full time in our Tiffin. We had some issue with it over the last 3 years, mainly minor cosmetic. We are in Red Bay now and are having some of our upholstery recovered due to peeling and some minor paint work. We will probably get all our furniture recovered in a couple of years with real Ultraleather. Overall we still enjoy living in our Tiffin especially after adding solar and lithium batteries.
Wife and I even almost 3 years ago looked at Tiffin Wayfarer before Thor and it was very sloppy. Wires shoved and unorganized and I even cut my finger checking out bed support. We saved about 50K and got a gas Entegra Odyssey and was built much better.
Sorry I haven't gotten to watch all the videos lately. Working way to much the last couple of weeks. I love the honestly of y'all's videos. Sad that Thor has dumb down the quality. We will not look towards them for quality anymore.
Thank you so much. You guys are great. We own a 2015 Allegro Open Road 32SA and we love it. But we agree that the newer one seem to be built with less care and quality. You can't help but think the sell out to Thor was a good thing. We are to old to get another Motorhome so we are very thankful for the one we have. Seems like a lot of items built today are just not built with pride in work. So sad.
I own a 2000 Tiffin Allegro. 16k miles. V10 Ford Still like brand new. But I'm done RV ing. It's now parked on my lakefront property being used as my getaway cabin on the weekends
We have a 2004 Tiffin Allegro, and the woodwork in ours makes this one look like something from Walmart. Just another example showing that when you are shelling out a lot of money for an RV, always get it inspected by a certified inspector. Yes, even one brand new on the showroom floor.
I have to agree with you. I have a 2003 Fleetwood American Eagle. the build quality is fantastic! all the wood cabinets are well made. I have heated floors that work great. you just can't get that quality anymore. quality control has gone out the window. what a shame.
I bought my '19 Tiffin Phaeton new and this Allegro Red does not resemble any Tiffin I looked at back then. This is shameful. The other huge problem from my perspective is the show price is $100,000 more than what I paid for an all electric Phaeton 40IH that has every option except solar. If we were in the market today that coach would definitely not be on our list to buy.
I knew as soon as I heard that Tiffin was acquired by Thor that the "Tiffin Quality" would drop significantly. It's very disheartening but Thor does lower the quality of everything they take over. The Tiffin name will never be the same.
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Being from Alabama this more than hurts. For years and now what this ? What hurts me even more is the fine employees at Tiffin that helped to build this Company name. What a waste of years and quality control . Thanks for your honesty !
I don't know if it has to do with Alabama origin or with the manufacturer's manufacturing regulations (or lack of it), but I bought a Mercedes Benz R 350, manufactured in Alabama, that cost me a huge amount of money to keep on fixing. Nothing was a simple cheap fix, starting with an intake manifold, timing issues, all the way to a defective DVD player that kept me from using the GPS feature. I spent 10 K to keep on going until I finally sold it for way less than I paid.
The result is that I will never in my life buy another Mercedes Benz, and will avoid buying anything manufactured in Alabama, just in case.
Some people will say stop blaming Thor, but Thor is an acquisition company and they acquire companies to make money and the only way to increase profits is to decrease product quality and that's done through cheaper labour and inferior supplies.
totally agree and their ROOFS SUCK!
THOR bought them to make money from them.
and look what they have done to Airstream also..not impressed at all
I have a Thor class C 1994 4 Winds motorhome...she was well built.
Hanging in there well for her age...so glad she was well built when I see things like this.
Hang on to that 1994, that's the key to it's longevity.
The problem is if they allow these visible defects, what invisible problems are there? Electrical, plumbing, slides, seat/chair hardware, etc. Even worse, were any safety features compromised?
Well said. You know everything in these coaches is compromised in quality somehow. Tiffin is junk. Their frames are failing too. I don’t care if they make the frame they sell it.
Imagine that. A successful family-owned company bought out by a big corporation and it goes down in flames within 2-3 years. How shocking.
A sad story that is playing out all over America.
Agreed. Nothing new to see here. Make money asap and customer be damned.
Quality issues is exactly why my wife and I went with an outstanding pre owned Country Coach. Slightly outdated but incredible and solid craftsmanship!
Last year when we were shopping for a diesel pusher our eyes burned from the glues and formaldehyde they are using to slap these million dollar coaches together. Finally we drove 2400 miles to Oregon to purchase our 07 country Coach Affinity. We love it…
My wife and I had a Tiffin Phaeton built in 2022 and was to be delivered in July of 2022. We drove over 600 miles to trade in our travel trailer and take delivery. We had put down a $5000.00 non refundable deposit. As we started the walk-thru the exterior looked great, but then we started the interior. There were so many problems on the interior finishes and countertops we walked away from our deposit. I was under the assumption Tiffin was a quality product. I did write a letter to the President of the dealership and was able to get my deposit returned.
What an absolute shame!
Why pay a deposit of 5k..and did not do the investigation before you buy the product..or doing the downpayment..is just foolish..for 5k$ you can get a auction salvage RV Trailer,that you can rebuilt...😂😂😂
Congrats to you for the smart move.
You dodged a bullet. Good call on walkn
I've heard so many Tiffin horror stories, I can't believe people still buy them.
My family (3 class A owners) went to both the Nashville and Huntsville RV show and we're shocked with the poor quality and feel of Tiffin RED, Phaeton and Bus. Those Thor cabinets made it all the way through the product line. The entire family just wrote off Tiffin as it's now just a Thor. Newmar is running away with it with Tiffins quality suicide.
I bought a 2023 Phaeton 36ft motorhome 8 mos ago and have been able to use it 2 weeks it was in the shop back and forth until July. We used it for 2 weeks lost hot water after 5 days and brought it home with a list of 15 issues after 2 more mos in the shop we finally got it back just in time for winter!! If I knew it was a Thor product I wouldn't have bought it the quality of the the motorhome is disgusting hopefully I've got everything fixed now. Thor owns 28% now the RV market do not buy any Thor product I feel like I've had a part time job dealing with this thing. My wife has cancer and we had trips lined up all summer hopefully hope she's going to be healthy enough to actually use it.
Well Bob made his money and in the process ruined the company. I own a wayfarer and just as bad. 3 sheets of quality control issues and not all fixed. This is very sad.
It is very sad how the Tiffin products went down hill since Thor bought them. I would not buy any Thor product. So sorry to hear your wife has cancer. My wife went through ovarian and uterine cancer and she has been cancer free for 31 years now. It was a scary time and thank God she made it through. I sure hope your wife can beat her cancer also. Prayers for your wife. God Bless.@@larrym1560
@@larrym1560get a lawyer. Trust me
@@lucasbragg9493 No I don’t think he ruined the company,he has always been good for tor the company.
When the Tiffin family left Tiffin and the Miller family left Newmar, quality followed them out the door. It was inevitable and will never be reversed. We’re happy we bought our Newmar many years ago.
They never left. Bob is there every day and Lee is the president of tiffins. Van also still works there.
@@rankdill2841 if those guys are still, then why the drop in quality?
@@Riker-eq2yv actually right now we are pushing out the best quality I’ve seen in many years. It will take a bit to see it, but you will.
@@rankdill2841 that’s good news. I always had my heart set on a Tiffin as I just recently retired but this video kinda shied me away. Are you an employee of the company?
@@rankdill2841 I’m south of Tampa and I think I just may do that. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my comment.
We met a couple with a new Tiffin Allegro Red recently and they’ve had a lot of issues with it. I toured it and really thought the workmanship and materials were not what I expected from a Tiffin. Thx for the videos. Really enjoy
Not just Tiffin, it is every RV company. I think Airstream has gone downhill more than anyone else, and prices are at an all time high. Cheaper quality, higher prices, great combination. Thanks for honest review.
I know Airstream sold a bit ago and quite possible Thor bought them and the quality I've heard is nothing like it used to be. My friends turned their Airstream camper van back with the lemon law and got a different on and just sold it at a loss. The RV manufacturing is gone down the tubes.
Love how you called this motor home out. That’s why I love your channel. Just went to the RV show in Salt Lake City and saw some of the same things on some of the 5th wheels.
So it's a problem with the 5th wheel too
We have the 2020 version of that coach and have nowhere near the kind of problems you pointed out. We love the floorplan and the neckbreaker TV isn't a problem because the two captains chairs at the front rotate and that's where we sit. (The passenger chair is also a recliner.) We also have a fireplace under the TV and a dishwasher rather than the oven. We did find some minor problems when we inspected the coach (which is always to be expected) but our dealer (King's Campers in Wausau, WI - they were phenomenal) and Tiffin took care of them.
We've had the coach for three years this month and have had it from California to Vermont and from Canada to Texas. We did have a DEF failure but it was while we were near home and Cummins covered it under warranty.
I'm not sure what's changing at Tiffin, but I hope they get a handle on it and soon.
As soon as we saw this video was coming out, we knew exactly which coach it would be. Greg and I were shocked when we walked inside this coach. Mr. Tiffin would be embarrassed to see the condition of this rig and know it was at a show. This does not compare in quality to the rigs we saw when shopping 2 years ago for our class A. Makes us glad we chose Newmar, but also sad to see this happening with Tiffin.
During 2020 and 2021, demand was so high that most manufacturers sacrificed quality to achieve quantity. Now that demand has dropped, they could go back to producing quality, but they have instead laid off workers and continued producing cheap stuff. I wouldn't buy a motorhome less than 15 - 20 years old, so so I know that I would get high quality. I recently bought a 1999 Tiffin Allegro Bus, for $30,000. Smartest choice I could ever have made. I look forward to see you guys somewhere during our travels.
excellent decision
Great review, very honest and fair. After 37 years in law enforcement for me, my wife and I are preparing for retirement in the next 12-18 months. We are looking to change from our 2019 40’ Keystone Montana 5th wheel and move to a Class A pulling an enclosed trailer to haul my new Harley Ultra Limited. Even though we bought our Montana new and it was built pre Covid, we noticed many of the same small issues you were pointing out with this Tiffin coach. We were very surprised that the dealership showed the unit without fixing several small but noticeable flaws on hinges, knobs, molding, wall paper, cabinet door alignment, and exterior seals around compartment doors and lights. We have owned a travel trailer, 30’ Class A gas motorhome, and a 5th wheel over the last 35 years. So we have some experience with RV’s, dealerships, and manufacturers. We successfully used the fact that the Montana was a 2019 model year and we were buying it after Labor Day weekend when the dealership was now selling 2020 units that were arriving on the lot, we also leveraged the many flaws we pointed out that needed repair before we would take it off the lot. Timing was right and we negotiated an outstanding purchase price. For the most part this purchase turned out to be a mistake on our part. Once they had our money the delays and excuses began and it took 60 days to get many of the small repairs done. Once we started using the 5th wheel it was back in the shop after every trip. Small issues that were allegedly fixed needed repair again, then bigger issues occurred with one of the axles and then twice with the 6 point leveling jack seals leaking hydronic fluid and system errors, etc. The repair issues now rolled into the Covid shutdown of the shop and lack of service and repair employees. Keystone was as hard to deal with as the dealership, honestly neither really cared. You know how it is, you want to tee off on them after every non-returned call, lie, rescheduled appointment, and every part always on back order. They even damaged my trailer tires on one side moving my trailer on their lot and had to replace two tires they punctured. But you can’t say anything, you have to bite your lip because you are literally at their mercy! Enough crying about the Montana, we use it at least once a month and sometimes twice a month for long weekend trips and continue to visit a repair center more often then we would like. So, we have done some minimal coach tours and have been drawn to Tiffin and Newmar Diesel coaches based on the RV communities reviews of both brands. We have made a few visits to dealers in CA our home state and to Nevada and Arizona. Unfortunately after retirement my wife and I will be leaving our beautiful home state of CA to retain our sanity, safety, faith, and financial stability. We are looking to pay cash for the coach and are not planning to full time RV, but will be using the coach an average of once to twice a month to travel through out the US. Obviously a quality coach is important and we are seeing much of what you saw in this review, poor craftsmanship and attention to detail. We don’t want to start off in a new Tiffin or Newmar the same way we did in the new Montana, feeling like our new trailer was the quality of a used trailer and missing trips or delaying trips because of shop time while repairs are completed. We learned a valuable lesson, the great negotiating points we used to save money on the front end cost us much more in downtime not using the unit or in extended warranty co-pays. We have seen a lot of changes in quality and definitely service in the last ten years. In the short time we have been looking at Tiffin and Newmar, we have came to the realization that we will most likely buy a 2015 to 2019 used coach with an extended warranty. With our budget being around $300k to $400k the new coaches we have looked at do not match the quality and craftsmanship depicted via Tiffin and Newmar websites, nor does it match with the RV communities reviews of both manufacturers for what we would expect in a new coach. I learn a lot watching your reviews and other popular RV UA-camrs videos. Unfortunately, I am not a popular and respected UA-camr with a loud voice within the RV community. Realistically, after buying a coach I don’t believe Tiffin, Newmar, or any dealership is going to make me a priority. We have always had a great sales experience, but the true test is everyday after you pull your new trailer or coach off the lot. What we have looked at new and used, it appears to us the better value is in a used pre-Covid built coach unless I were to finance an upper end model of Tiffin or Newmar, or look outside the two manufacturers. Thanks for letting me vent and I am all ears if you have any additional advice. I will continue to watch your reviews, thank you both for dedicating so much of your time to help the rest of us make informed decisions in the RV community.
Thank you for the candor. If someone has a problem with the issues that you've shown, the problem isn't JUST with the RV. "It is what it is".
Keep doing these videos and never be a "sell-out" to glaring issues. We love the honesty!
Mr. Tiffin should see this video, too. He would knock heads if he knew his name was being muddied by this shoddy work.
Guys, have you reached out to Tiffin for comments on this coach? I would love to see/hear their response about some of the issues you've pointed out on this unit AND if this was mfg'd by the "new" Tiffin. Keep up the good work!
Y'all Be Safe!
Mr. Tiffin is in his eighties. He has been made aware of MANY quality issues with Tiffins coming off the line. Tiffin Facebook groups are full of these stories. He no longer owns the company, and the resulting difference in quality is very obvious. He’s more of a figurehead now, with credibility in the Tiffin name diminishing at a rate that nearly matches the decline in quality. Many of us don’t blame him. Mr. Tiffin tries to help customers with problems, but how much can he really do? He has a right to do what he wants with his life, and Thor was apparently there when he was ready to sell. But it’s foolish for anyone to place as much stock in the Tiffin name anymore. It doesn’t mean nearly as much as it used to. You buy a new Tiffin now, and you should be prepared to “rough it”, but not so “smoothly.”
I truly believe Bob Tiffin is not liking what is going on with his product. Great review of that coach. Glad you didn't pull any punches.
We owned a brand new 2020 bus and had the same type of issues you see in this video! Exterior paint had drips. Air bag leveling leaked. The bay doors though seemingly solid leaked when driving through rain. Molding popped off when slides came in. Microwave was mounted incorrectly and sagged. Water came in the closet when driving through rain. Fireplace in bedroom was wired incorrectly and didn’t work and the wiring was a rats nest behind it. Beauty was skin deep for sure! The worst was the headlights! We drove once at night and could not see anything (no exaggeration)! Completely unsafe. It truly was one of our biggest disappointment and ENDLESS issues! I’m sure I’ve forgotten many of the details.
I've had 2 Newmars and a Tiffin. None of them had good headlights. At least the Newmars had fog lights that helped.
This is such a shame. Where is their pride in quality? I love your honesty, thank you for the tour.
I like the fact that you will tell the truth about what you see especially since it may offend dealers and manufacurers but help us consumers in the end. Thanks
I know Tiffin sold their family business for a tidy sum but, I’m sure Bob Tiffin would be so sad to see this level of quality being churned out.😢
Lee Tiffin is the President of the Tiffin division. He’s going along with everything Thor has done. No one would buy them now, but the folks who don’t do their research do buy them. Such a shame for Tiffin
Hey, Bob took the money and ran. Besides a Tiffin still runs the company.
It's typical of what's been going on in the rv industry the last few years. Prices have gone out of site and the quality and materials used have gone down. Sad but it seems to be more common these days. Older used rv's seem to be more and more the way to go. To me, much better quality in the older units unless you can afford the really high end units. Just my two cents. 🙂
You are 100 percent correct. I own a 1998 32ft Excel fifth wheel and I wouldn't trade it for any of the new production fifth wheels. We have been going to RV shows recently and quite honestly I am disgusted with the cheap materials and low quality, even the 150,000.00 grand design did not impress. There is no way any of these new RVs will last the 25 years my excel has and it's still going, good as new.
Mj and Izzy I thought that's why people trust you and believe in you was because you two always tell your viewers the truth and what they should know to make a big decision like buying an RV....
Right on!
I can’t be believe the condition of this Tiffin. I like Tiffins. I never seen a class A look like this. Hopefully they can fix the issues. Thank you Izzy and MJ for showing this Rv.
I totally agree!
I watch y’all because of your honesty on reviews. This helps me for when I go from pull to coach. Thank you!!
I looked at a high end Tiffin just last week. The first thing I do is inspect the roof. I was surprised to find butt connectors and pieces of cut wire embedded in the sealant. It looked as though they swept the roof before the sealant was dry and all that trash stuck in the dicor. Sloppy work to say the least.
We were not impressed with the Tiffin’s at the Novi RV show in Michigan 3 weeks ago. It seemed the quality is not the same any more as it used to be.
We were in Novi as well- thought the exact same thing.
Just wondering how this comment can be posted 4 days ago when the video was only posted 15 hours ago ?
@@anthonylicwinko9142 I placed that comment before the video was released. As a subscriber I got a pre-notification for that video once released. My comments refer to the Novi, RV show I went early Feb. and looked at Tiffin Class A‘s. Until now I considered Tiffin‘s and Newmars equally for their „Amish quality craftsmanship“ but it seems not any more. I do own a 2017 Newmar Canyon Star floor plan 3710 and I am very pleased with quality and craftsmanship. I rather do improvements to my current Class A than buying a new one. The MSRP prices went up so much. Even good > 30% discounts still make the new Class A’s very expensive. My favorite Class A is still a Newmar Dutch Star maybe buy a used one ☝️.
I was also at the MARVC RV show in Michigan last month, I looked at the Red, Open Road, and. Allegro Bus, I was very disappointed in the lack of quality and craftsmanship. Tiffin has definitely changed in the wrong direction. I also looked at Newmar, and was very pleased to see their quality was still there.
For sure I will stick to my 2013 Tiffin Allegro with only 20000 miles. My rig still look good and run like new. The quality is there. But I feel so sad to see this happening to this brand. Bod Tiffin is a very respectable person who work so hard to built a reputable company caring about customers satisfaction.
We noticed the difference with quality at the Hershey show! (Where we had the privilege of meeting you) We agree with you 100%.
My husband was watching you guys and I walked in and asked is that a ForestRiver?
Grreeaatt video. Most people would miss these construction flaws which are really unforgivable on a brand new motorhome
This is such a shame. Tiffin has always been one of my favorites, but seeing this is sad. The cabinetry has always been a strong point for Tiffin, but that looks awful! Every Tiffin I've ever looked at was gorgeous with beautiful cabinets. If I ever buy a motorhome, it'll be an older model around 07 or 08 because back then quality was a priority. Love the videos guys, keep 'em coming!
Our 2010 35QBA is definitely nicer finish quality than that!!!
Brutally Honest Thank you! Keep the honesty coming
You bet
Thanks for your honesty and attention to detail (unlike the assemblers of that motorhome). I'll be watching more. Thanks again.
I have a 2016 40' Tiffin Bus with 110,000 miles on it. This is our second MH, the first being a Country Coach that we had for ten years and put 105,000 miles on. The Tiffin has been a good MH. We have had problems with it, but that kind of goes with the territory. We have looked at a lot of new Tiffin MH, at shows and on the road, and they just don't seem to be made as well as in the past. This whole decline in workmanship seemed to develop during the COVID years and when Thor bought out Tiffin. Just an observation on my part. We were in Red Bay in July and we did hear rumors that the service center was going to move, but they were just rumors. Did not hear anything about the factory moving.
I would never buy a brand new RV just for these reasons actually. And if I’m being honest, I wouldn’t even buy a production RV at all if I had the money. I hear horror stories of people not being able to use their brand new $300K+ rigs as the dealership works out the bugs. Not on my dime. And we love your honesty! Stay real.
Hey very honest and candid review. Really appreciated your honesty. We have friends that have a Tiffin allegro 2015 and it is built a lot better.
WOW guys! I can tell it was a hard call to tell it like it is. Good job.
We were fortunate to buy an 2019 Open Road in 2020 after going back and forth between Tiffin and Newmar. The deciding facter came down to liking the floor-plan of the Tiffin better. Even then the cabinetry wasn't really up to snuff (I've had to repair several drawers that have fallen in) but overall it's been great. Then we went to the 2022 Tiffin rally in Rock Springs, WY and the 2023 models they were "showing off" were a revelation. As this video said, you could tell when walking in that the quality just wasn't there, the details weren't there, the materials looked and felt cheap, everything was plane. This was a rally of Tiffin fans, loyal customers, and everyone we talked to felt the same, it was massively disappointing. Even the dealers who were there realized the reaction was not going well and started bringing in different rigs from further out, which were better but still not up to previous quality. It's very sad.
Ironically we toured some Vanleigh trailers there and really liked them, the traditional Tiffin quality seemed to be on full display there. So it was really shocking to us when they canceled the line in early 2023! We're looking to trade this in soon, but we have no idea which brand to go to now... maybe Newmar is now best for ~35' gassers.
This is an eye opener. For $360K not what I would expect. Thanks for this review.
My husband and I have owned 2 Tiffins, purchased new, a 2017 Red and 2020 Phaeton. Both have had issues but I think more cabinetry problems in the Phaeton. Both have had slide issues. The Phaeton will likely be our last DP. As we get older, I would like to downsize to a class c but probably not Tiffin.
Great review of this coach. I agree there has been a lot of corners cut. I think no matter who makes the coach they will unfortunately cut a lot of corners resulting in constant fixes and extended warranties. I have no issue paying for quality workmanship but unfortunately in the RV world everyone goes into it expecting problems. I think the manufacturers need to alter course on that and produce the best quality product they can and stand behind it.
I have an older American Coach that is very well put together. I like the layout on this 23 featured, but my 19 year old American Coach appears to have much much higher levels of fit and finish. Of all the things you pointed out we have none of that on ours, even though it's older. I'm hearing that tiffin quality is slipping.
A huge difference between pre covid and post covid. Also, pre Thor and pre Winnebago purchases. We got our Tiffin early 2020 (pre covid and pre Thor purchase). We spent a year looking at Newmar and Tiffin RV's and both were very comparable in fit, finish and quality. My wife just liked the floor plan better in the Tiffin so that's what we went with. In our travels we have met a lot of other tiffin owners and you can see the 2021 and 2022 + units are not quite up to par. Even the paint job is not as smooth. Definitively, buy pre covid.
Fully agree with your assessment. We have a 2020 Phaeton 40IH which has had its "normal" share of quality issues, all taken care of or well supported by Tiffin. I can't say enough about the positive support I have received from all Tiffin employees. They will go above and beyond. I went to the Novi, MI show, just for fun, and the Phaeton and RED they had on display were both very disappointing, and I didn't even look very closely at the workmanship. I don't know what's driving the lack of attention to detail, but I'm not convinced that Thor is the issue. Also, pricing is getting stupid. Our MSRP was $380K and now a RED is significantly more than our Phaeton was only 3 years ago. Just glad we bought when we did and have what we have.
Being OCD mtself, I appreciate the things you guys pointed out. It's a shame that the quality has decreased.
Still loving my 07 Monaco!
Thanks for making an honest video. I have the 2022 Red 360 and there are quite a few issues. I will be taking it to Red bay for full correction. sample. the vacuum wasn't working, when I looked behind the panel I found the hose was not connected. Also found the CO alarm was not even wired. some of the panels on the draws are a bit twisted not straight. And like you guys found the bathroom and bedroom sliding doors are off shaky. The sofa within a few days a seam came open. Living area I noticed a wet area on the wood from the AC. got quite a few more but will leave at that.
Sorry to hear. Seems like quality control and PDI does not exist
Like Klondiken we bought an older Triple E Commander and it is lovely and super quality construction. All solid wood not a picture of wood on thin pressed cardboard. Canada 🇨🇦
We agree with you guys, and first noticed it at the Tampa show that the Beautiful Former Tiffin wood work is no longer present. Tiffin is dead and has officially finally become a Thor-iffin, however the prices are still at Tiffin previous quality levels. What a shame, That’s why we will purchase a solid pre 2010 diesel pusher, ie: Tiffin, Newmar, Monaco family, American Coach, and early Fleetwoods.
We owned a pre-Thor 2021 Tiffin 38 KA and we loved that coach. There were a few quality issues, but everything was fixed in the Red Bay service center. We have been considering getting another 38 KA because we like the look of the new models. After watching this video, I think I'll wait until they can sort out the quality issues, or look at other manufacturers. Sad to see what has happened to Tiffin.
We just recently went through a new Tiffin at the RV show in Toronto Ontario and immediately my eyes were drawn to crooked walls! We were shocked at the overall build quality and it’s such a shame as they always known for assembling a well built coach. Now that I have seen it for myself Tiffin has been crossed off our brand choices.
I don't understand why Thor buys all these companies, 28% of the market share, then attempts to run them into the ground?
We have a 2022 Open Road (gasser) that was built in 2021. IMHO it was built waaaaaaaayyyy too quickly. We submitted the order in late July 2021 and were told it would take 5-6 months to delivery. It was delivered to our SoCal dealer in mid-October. It had so many fit-and-finish issues inside (especially cabinetry) and outside (including paint) we refused to take delivery till stuff was fixed. Of course AFTER we took delivery and had driven it from our SoCal dealer to our home in Northern Cal, much more surfaced, including more cabinetry issues, non-functioning solar, poorly performing water heater (Truma) and screwed up slides. And then there were the four or five recalls we’ve had so far with work delayed by parts unavailability. All of the fit-and-finish issues should have been caught before our coach ever left the factory. Same with the non-functioning solar and screwed up Truma. We are not new to RVing. Before we purchased the Tiffin, we had a Phoenix Cruiser for nearly six years. We only had one recall in all that time, excellent fit-and-finish overall, and no major issues. We are extremely disappointed with Tiffin, and will never buy a new Tiffin again.
Thanks for sharing
Yes I see lots of pore quality. Things like you pointed out plus things like using countersunk screws and not countersinking the metal they are installed in. Things like using those 3" long self drilling/tapping screws to hold 2 pieces of metal that might be .030 thick. Not painting or sealing wood in the structure or priming painting metal used in construction.
Sad to see this as I have an older Open Road..but when I went to 2022 Hershey Show I saw a lot of issues in a model I was looking at. I do know Tiffin does repair things but driving to Red Bay and waiting can be time consuming. I am really surprised at the wood work issues.
Thor has the downward reputation from their corner-cutting on quality craftsmanship, lack of attention to detail. If you don’t want to be called out for shitty craftsmanship, then start paying attention to detail! Thor has the reputation they’ve earned. Individuals who go ahead and still purchase RV’s produced by Thor, have no room to complain when their $300,000-plus RV starts coming apart within the first 3,000 miles. That is what happens when you ignore reviews before making your purchase!
Wow, I can't believe it. You guys nailed it. Great job.
Thanks so much!
I have a 2018 Thor Venesian 40a that I bought with 5,000 miles on it in 2020.and we Love it, it has had some issues but I fix most of them myself because I put 10,000 miles a year on mine and I don’t have time for it to sit in a RV dealer repair shop.
Bought Thor class a in20…couldn’t wait to get it outta our hands before it’s warranty. Found 15 stored tiffin with bunks we needed, she’s been a thrill to own, one solid piece of equipment we have already driven 20k+ ….hate to see declines all over our lands actually, not just here..Thanks, we expected THIS
Well said.
I know that Tiffin, in the last year or so, was purchased by Thor, BUT the Tiffin’s would feel “embarrassed” at the “shoddy workmanship” in this coach. The good news, according to a recent issue of Tiffin’s magazine, Roughing it Smoothly, the Tiffin’s are refocusing their efforts on the quality workmanship that they have built their name upon. It’s too bad that this RV showed poorly, but as is customary for Tiffin, the staff and employees would “make it right.” I don’t own a Tiffin, and I don’t own a travel trailer, motor home, or any camping type vehicle. However, I plan on purchasing a Tiffin diesel in the future. Thanks for making, and sharing your informative videos.
You are right on in your assessment. This is NOT what I would expect from Tiffin. We've seriously looked at a couple Tiffins when we were shopping. I really liked the smaller Breeze we looked at years ago (and still we we bought). But when we got our current motorhome, we decided even the base level Tiffin was a step in luxury up from what we were looking at. As you said, this looks like a entry level unit. The austere bathroom, kind of cheap finish, and more-or-less basic interior is not what one expects from Tiffin and certainly not at that price point. I will say from your Newmar gas chassis review at the same show, it is clear that Newmar has done better in keeping their identity under their new ownership than Tiffin. Were I not familiar with Tiffin and this were the first one I ever saw, I'd probably cross the brand off my list altogether.
I got my Tiffin Phaeton in mid Feb. got a week in it in July came back with 15 more items to be fixed so it's been in the shop ever since. Bottom line I just put it up for sale on consignment will probably loose $100,000 I'm done with motorhomes Tiffin sold to Thor and they have destroyed the once fine company. Thor owns 28% of the RV market.
Thanks for your honesty. I have noticed some of the same quality (lack of it) in these coaches.
I had very bad carpal tunnel in both wrists back in the 90’s. I couldn’t even pick up a brush or a tooth brush. I was working in a commercial kitchen at the time. I didn’t have the time to play around. We did major catering. My chiropractor at the time treated me and taught me how to get the little bones in my wrist to line up correctly. I have not needed surgery at all ever. My Mom had surgery on both wrists and still had issues.
Thank you guys it’s a good thing to know!
We bought a 2012 Tiffin Allegro Breeze 32BR and the quality is outstanding. I've heard and seen comments from current Thor based Tiffin's and I know Leigh Tiffin keeps stating that Tiffin is run by Tiffin but we can see that they have to use Thor parts and possibly designs. We are going to hang onto this rig for a long time, hopefully the MaxxForce 7 continues to perform as well as it has for 12 years.
thank you great reporting
We went to RV show in Dallas yesterday. Very disappointed in the current Tiffin products, from the Red straight thru the 45 allegro bus. In laws have a 2015 Allegro Bus that is amazing still at 9 years old. High quality that you would expect. These new Tiffins had shoddy workmanship and materials throughout.
I live in Elkhart County, Indiana. The RV capital of the world.
I am a minor supplier to many of the top RV brands.
I find these videos interesting.
I do know that the pay is way down from where it used to be and that drug use is a big problem.
I also know that from my experience, management in these local companies are very good people.
However, most are owned by Thor and a very few others and must meet profit goals that are dictated to them.
We purchase a new 2022 34PA in the Summer of 2022. There was so much wrong with it (2 pages to be exact) that Tiffin agreed to pick it up and make the repairs at Red Bay. They kept our unit for 5 months! The repair people I spoke with at Tiffin were very nice and just as disappointed in the condition of our new Tiffin. We had everything from exterior paint issue to fit and finish issues inside the coach. I could go on and on. Tiffin delivered our unit back to us with our list completed. I would give them a 9 out of 10 on exterior paint repairs and a 10 on the interior repairs. Between the selling dealer and Tiffin, they have had our unit longer than we have. Bob Tiffin did extend our warranty.
At the St. Louis show we saw the quality and 'luxury' of the Tiffin units just wasn't the same as even a few years ago. Sad to see.
Thanks for your honesty.
We have been shopping for a motorhome for 4 years. We were not willing to pay "COVID" prices so took a break. Tiffin was our dream coach. This year as prices seem to normalize a bit we began our search again. Every Tiffin (we were shopping for Allegro Bus models) toured had the quality issues you are seeing in this Red Model. We were shocked to say the least at the poor quality of the coaches. In the end we have purchased a different brand.
What brand did you go with and why? Starting our research and any input is welcomed.
Just one more example of how the RV industry has sunken to a new level of "to hell with quality and just grab as much money as you can!" RV manufacturers need to be held accountable for their actions and people should just stop buying their garbage. I'd tell anyone to avoid just about all of the stuff that has been built in the past five years and look for a quality used unit. If you get a used rig at the right price, it's well worth your time to make some upgrades such a new furniture, replace worn items such as a sink or faucet. We downsized from a 2012 Bay Star (Newmar) to a 2015 Winnebago Via and yes, the rig shows it's age a bit, but not that we've had it for almost a year, I can say that it was well built and should serve us well for quite some time. Thanks for producing videos that inform potential buyers of what to look for when shopping for an RV. So many of the reviewers just provide "walk throughs" that aren't any different than what the dealers produce. We need more reviews that point out the poor-quality control, especially with companies that were once family owned and know for quality and that after being bought by larger companies are now marginal in quality control and workmanship such as Tiffin and Jayco. I have my concerns about Newmar now that it is owned by Winnebago, which is also making quite a few rigs with problems. Keep up the good work!
Do not change a thing, regarding your integrity! We want “BRUTAL but OBJECTIVE” Honesty about what you are seeing about fit & finish, and lack of build quality!!!! If you say nothing, companies will take a country mile if you give them an inch!! The only way…. THE ONLY WAY build & design quality improves is if YOU HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE!! YOU GUYS DO YOU!! Stay STRONG, we - depend - on - you!!!
Wow! $350k with crooked outlets and uneven door knobs? At an RV show?
And that's just what you can see in the living space.
What about the mechanics and drive train?
That's embarrassing.
Someone at Tiffin needs to start knocking heads.
$360K for a new RV that will depreciate immediately after driving of the lot. Better to spend half the $ and do a bus conversion. Get exactly what you want built, safer to drive and operate because of USDOT build quality standards for commercial vehicles.
I have a 2008 Allegro Bus and I would rather have this due to the build quality than a newer Tiffin, even though its starting to have those little annoying issues pop up I know this was built better. In my opinion, the quality started to go down after they were bought out by Thor, as well as Newmar I believe. Not sure what the quality on the new Newmars is, maybe you could find and compare the new Newmar models with older before Thor models. Thanks for another great informative vid, friends of our were looking at Tiffin at the Daytona show and said all the same things.
We have a 2016 Tiffin 32SA and we see what you are seeing as far as a reduction in quality and attention to detail. We thought of trading but after seeing such a significant decline in overall quality and assembly we will keep ours. The cabinetry in ours as well as overall construction is far better than what Tiffin has rolled out in the last two years. As a Tiffin fan it is very disappointing.
I popped back this morning just to check I hadn’t had a nightmare whilst viewing your video.
I would like someone to interview the Tiffin family for their own thoughts about what’s happening with their company.
It’s worse than I thought as I saw so much more and I’m just stunned by the shoddy workmanship of an expensive class A motorhome. I don’t think you could make it worse if you tried & I know it’s been one of your favourite brands.
If other companies go this route then I foresee numerous companies going into liquidation and leaving their customers with tons of issues to repair. It’s definitely the low mileage second hand market that is attracting me more. Perhaps a Country Coach or something of similar quality beacons and always with an independent inspection before and after the purchase.
I’m completely devastated by Tiffin and just stunned by how low they have sunk in their craftsmanship. No nightmare here it’s Tiffin who should be having them.
It’s a brilliant video of the quality of made in America in 22/23/24 if they last that long 😢🫣💥☄️🔥💫
Appreciate the honesty! I would have expected that the show models would be gone through to ensure they represent the manufacturer in the best light. Certainly doesn’t appear that way though.
I have a 2018 Tiffin Open Road. It's a truck. This is our 3rd MH and first Class A. It's a truck. I sold our 2013 Winnebago Aspect Class C with outstanding workmanship. While the cabinetry in our Tiffin (it's a truck) is good, the Winnebago was incredibly well built. Everything in our Tiffin truck works. I can travel practically worry-free because I spend thousands of dollars every year keeping it well maintained. Exterior paint on a dump truck is as good as the paint on our Tiffin truck. Two days ago, I had an independent RV repair shop install new tires. I heard employees discuss the downward spiral of Tiffin. Tiffin will no longer custom make their diesel chassis. Freightliner will make them and put a Tiffin label on them. Thor has sold off paint divisions and Tiffin's fiberglass division. I toured the Tiffin truck plant and met Mr. Tiffin. A member of our tour group asked why he sold the Tiffin company with its stellar reputation to Thor, a company with the worst reputation. He said it wasn't his decision. He had retired and the younger generation of his family had made the decision to sell out. While I like my Tiffin truck - I keep calling it that because, although on location it has all of the comforts of home, it rides and handles like a bloated cement mixer - when buying a motorhome, have fun. Enjoy the road and the great outdoors, and remember that your RV is YOURS. You have to maintain it and keep it up and make constant improvements. Keep smiling. Keep throwing money at your RV. I hope to see you on the road!
Agree on the lack of quality. We will keep our Wanderlodge.
Our first coach and a beast 25 years ago. Much better made than our 22 Tiffin Phaeton.
I watch y’all because of the content AND your delivery of the content. Don’t worry about the potential haters, be you it’s what we like…😊 I haven’t been in a Tiffin lately but (at least on this coach) the fit and finish was not worthy of the price. Hopefully the industry improves soon. Keep up the good work and thank you for the videos!
Appreciate that
The entire industry has lost it's way, way over charging for the 2nd rate products they now produce. Good old capitalism at work, I hope it bankrupts all of them so the learn how to do and honest job building coaches again.
Tiffin actually builds a RHD version of these Allegros with the Cummins diesels for Australia. They are very much a niche RV sell one a month. Unfortunately they are a paved road motorhome and other aspects like the wood paneling is not well liked here.
I have a Thor Challenger -- 2011 32VS. The cabinetry is first class
They might have forgot to inspect that unit prior to taking it to an RV Show…that dealer should never have taken delivery of that Tiffin Allegro Red…their feet needs to be held to the fire also on this one…Don’t Pass on Poor Quality….Don’t accept poor quality…now they have to work with Tiffin Warranty Department because they didn’t do their due diligence…Thank you ERV for excellent review
We ordered a new 2019 Tiffin Red 37pa and picked it up July 2019. MSRP was $281k and purchased price $199,600. No way would I buy one now due to the Hugh price increases. The same one today is well over $100k MSRP. We full time in our Tiffin. We had some issue with it over the last 3 years, mainly minor cosmetic. We are in Red Bay now and are having some of our upholstery recovered due to peeling and some minor paint work. We will probably get all our furniture recovered in a couple of years with real Ultraleather. Overall we still enjoy living in our Tiffin especially after adding solar and lithium batteries.
Wife and I even almost 3 years ago looked at Tiffin Wayfarer before Thor and it was very sloppy. Wires shoved and unorganized and I even cut my finger checking out bed support. We saved about 50K and got a gas Entegra Odyssey and was built much better.
Sorry I haven't gotten to watch all the videos lately. Working way to much the last couple of weeks. I love the honestly of y'all's videos. Sad that Thor has dumb down the quality. We will not look towards them for quality anymore.
Thank you so much. You guys are great. We own a 2015 Allegro Open Road 32SA and we love it. But we agree that the newer one seem to be built with less care and quality. You can't help but think the sell out to Thor was a good thing. We are to old to get another Motorhome so we are very thankful for the one we have. Seems like a lot of items built today are just not built with pride in work. So sad.
I own a 2000 Tiffin Allegro. 16k miles. V10 Ford
Still like brand new. But I'm done RV ing.
It's now parked on my lakefront property being used as my getaway cabin on the weekends
I'd take one look at those cabinets and It would nix any further interest that I might have in this coach!
We have a 2004 Tiffin Allegro, and the woodwork in ours makes this one look like something from Walmart. Just another example showing that when you are shelling out a lot of money for an RV, always get it inspected by a certified inspector. Yes, even one brand new on the showroom floor.
Thanks for sharing
I would feel ripped off paying 300k for that crap.
I am feeling pretty good about our 1997 Gulfstream. Still solid after 26 years.
I have to agree with you. I have a 2003 Fleetwood American Eagle. the build quality is fantastic! all the wood cabinets are well made. I have heated floors that work great. you just can't get that quality anymore. quality control has gone out the window. what a shame.
I bought my '19 Tiffin Phaeton new and this Allegro Red does not resemble any Tiffin I looked at back then. This is shameful. The other huge problem from my perspective is the show price is $100,000 more than what I paid for an all electric Phaeton 40IH that has every option except solar. If we were in the market today that coach would definitely not be on our list to buy.
That’s almost exactly the price I paid for my ‘21 Dutch Star. No comparison.
We met Megean from Newmar today at a show at Bish’s RV in Junction City, OR. After talking to her we are even more sold on buying a Newmar.
I knew as soon as I heard that Tiffin was acquired by Thor that the "Tiffin Quality" would drop significantly. It's very disheartening but Thor does lower the quality of everything they take over. The Tiffin name will never be the same.
Def destroys engines