Fish is a relative term. They're players who were crushing the game 20-30 years ago and would be able to make a full time living off the game. Not because they were decent at the game, but because their opposition was so bad relative to them. However, transport them into a random mid-stakes cash game today and they would be regarded as a fish.
I got way over 3 decades of poker playing. I am a fish when it comes to certain poker games or aspects of them at least and a total fox in others. I have studied poker maths and odds basics in early 2000s and revisited that some years ago and still on that route with the more modern poker strategies. I just lack the motivation to grind poker enough to justify paying for learning. The learning part that I do is out of interest and love for the game(s). I am a fish for the better studied people, easy to acknowledge. My biggest edge is that I know most if not all forms of poker rather well. And the biggest edge is for live gaming as I play people really well and can extract tells from people and act my own well enough to get most people off the track. The leaks are that I tend to play a bit too many hands and that leads to unpleasant places with the desicions.
If the word fish is causing you problems, the mental game is defeating you already. Let it go, it doesn't matter and will only cause you to make more mistakes.
What do you think the "new" player is going to experience more: the idiot at their local casino who taunts every new player they win a hand against with a sarcastic "Nice hand, ya fish!", or the calm, neutral, factual description that SplitSuit describes? I freakin' guarantee it's going to be option 1. Maybe I'm outdated here but I started playing when "Bugsy's Club" was the big online poker site that everyone knew. (Anybody else remember that one?) You didn't start playing online, you graduated to it. I suspect that's often still the case although I may be wrong. I'd be interested to see the numbers. That said, the word itself isn't the problem, it's the player attitude, and there's unfortunately not much you can do about that. Bullies will find a way to bully. That said, "fish" is associated so much with an obnoxious mindset of driving new players away (who you should want around for your bank balance if nothing else!) that I for one would be happy to see it die.
"Everyone is doing the best they can." No they aren't. Fish show up to GAMBO. Many of them aren't even aware that it's possible to win at poker, or they simply don't care.
Maybe this is a category error on my part, but the definition of what you call a fish here (bottom 10%) is what I would call a donkey. A fish I think is something separate, a player who ostensibly knows in their head which hands they should be folding without question but they have poor impulse control and just HAVE to see the flop or just HAVE to see the showdown. Getting better for them is sometimes less about improving their understanding of the game and more about self-control. But that's just my interpretaton.
Now this I agree with! But turn it around. A new player's first exposure to "fish" - probably multiple first exposures - is probably going to be something thrown at them as an insult. So when someone like James, a poker strategist, starts using the same terms in his videos, what impression do you think that's gonna give them? Looking it from the new player's perspective?
@@H0lyMoley In the full podcast episode I linked to, I did specifically discuss videos vs commentary where audiences vary massively. My YT audience is a much lower % of "fish", so usage on this channel is very different. I wouldn't use the word "fish" when commentating on a produced game with a wider audience though.
@@ThePokerBank That is a good point regarding different audiences. As for your audience, say "new players" and I'd agree with you. Speaking personally, I don't claim to be anything special. There was a time in the mid-2000s when I think I could've gone pro, but that just wasn't the plan, so... eh. Nowadays I regard myself as mediocre at best, but I still at least try and keep up with things like range analysis (which was so, so, so far from being a "thing" when I started playing!) Like you say, it's about how much time you have to dedicate yourself to learning the game, and someone who does this professionally is obviously going to have the edge over a rec like me. That's ok, I don't mind being a medium-sized fish(!) in a small pond.
Of course it's a discriminating term, that's the whole point of it. Discriminating just means putting something into a category, something we all do every day. It's not inherently a bad thing.
yeah i agree to consider new players fish but i dont like calling them a fish in their faces, i just refer to them with others not in their faces. they might get offended and not donate
James, James, James... Listen, James... There is a general understanding of the term "fish". There are even poker dictionaries that define the term. So, it is not up to you to define it and regard that as law. It is, in general, a "derogatory" term. "Fishy" is usually an adjective but can also be used as a verb. "Recreational players" is the more adequate term to describe a less than average poker player. Although, recreational players do range from below average to about average. There are some that can actually play above average. A fish is just a constant losing player making bad decisions on the poker table. Below average players (your bottom 10%) are found on weekends at popular casinos or card rooms. But, I would say nowadays your average poker player plays better than what many people might think. I see poker players in levels as in a hierarchy. You have your beginners/rookies/novices, amateurs, experienced/intermediates, advanced/experts, and your professionals at different levels. With all that said, even your professionals can lose in a constant manner. Important to note: A higher level pro can view a lower level pro as "fish" to them and they will prove it!
@@ThePokerBank - You didn't point out all that I did. Not once did you say it is a derogatory term. You also never mentioned the term recreational players. So, no... it's not an agreement with you, it is an extension of information. Even though you might agree with me, I didn't take 9 minutes of soft spoken speech to share this...
I think Fish is a relative term and not an absolute as the original poster was trying to define. Against the average card room table near me...maybe a semi-pro/serious player....2-3 regs...2-3 experienced rec players and 2 non-experience rec players I'm likely in the reg-experience rec level of competence. I lose long term but slowly...having more winning sessions than losing (win a buy in 2 times and lose 2 or 3 the next time) I can be a fish at some of the bigger rooms, like in Vegas, when I'm up against pros and regs. Their study and experience have me playing sub-optimally against them and my losing sessions outnumber the winning ones. If you're a top 10% player, overall winning but maybe not at quit your job level rates.... but you're seated against top 1% players that only live on what they take out of your bankroll....you're the fish.
I would actually recommend an an occasional fishy/donk play especially when in a room of unknown players. I love being underestimated. As the good book says “pride comes before destruction.” Let the average player think they’re Phil Ivey haha…
Umm...depends on the field. Sure, I'm positive in live $50 mtts, but usually losing, min-cash or bubbling at $250+. That's ok, I don't have a $25k bankroll for mtts. Playing better players & studying is how I get better, so I have a regular social game with the serious players. Yep, I set aside money for those games, say $200, but that's not from my poker bankroll. Honestly, these guys play $1000 mtts, so when I [often] run deep against them, I'm cool with neg ev. No, I don't think I'm a fish there, I get in & battle for pots, but yeah, I'll follow up that Redchip email. I want to keep improving or what's the point? Ta.
Have you done a segment on how to overcome a table full of Fish? I play at Twin River in RI 1-2 cash game. I play fairly tight but almost every pot 6/7 people try to limp or limp call almost any raise. So I can beat 1,2 people but how do you beat 6 people ever time without raising outrageous all the time? Example I had 6 way all in for $159. I had AK and the hands that called me were J-10, AJ,KQ,5’s and 2’s. KQ won with Q on flop and River. I want to move up but don’t have bankroll for 2/5 yet
Part of it is raise sizing. Maybe make it more preflop if everybody calls your bets.Also, when multiway, you can pretty much play straight forward. I.e. six ways bet top pair top kicker or better. But pot control if called.
@@ThePokerBank James... when was the last time you were in a small-town casino with a three-whisky-strong "table captain" who says "nice hand, fish" to everyone he beats (because if he said what he wanted to say, which is "you're a stupid f--k", they'd just throw him out)? That's the "new player experience" of the word "fish". It's all about how it's used. In the vast majority of cases, I'd argue it's used in an insulting or demeaning way. You seem to regard it as a neutral term. Do you think the new player at the casino that night would think the same thing? It's not the word that's the problem, it's the attitude of the person using it. But then the word is so strongly connected TO the attitude that I would be quite happy to see it die. EDIT: I'll add to that, I definitely think the person in this example was being oversensitive, given that you didn't use the word about them at all! But as to your general point, no, we don't need to be adding to new players' stresses by using something as a term that they've probably only heard before as an insult, no matter how good our intentions might be.
@@H0lyMoley About the person who calls another person "fish" at the tables in a live game, they are going to sling an insulting word one way or the other. You could argue that them saying "fish" is far better than the other words they likely have in their insult vocabulary lol
@@ThePokerBank Now that, sadly, I agree with. And unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about that. I've been playing live poker for twenty-five plus years now (if some of my rather old-school terms in comments I've made on your previous videos haven't made that clear already!) And I've seen a few people thrown out of games for just constantly harrassing another player without any "bad language" whatsoever. All that said, I wouldn't ever use "fish" or "donk" because I've seen them used, in the vast majority of cases, as insults. I just keep them out of my poker vernacular. It's easier. (Sometimes they're used as incorrect insults, which is even more annoying for some reason. Especially online. A player calls someone who just played badly and lost a "donk". Dude, if they were a "donk", they would've won! Fish = bad player who loses. Donk = bad player who wins. If you're going to be an a--hole, at least get your terms right.)
My understanding of the label fish, is that the better players, the "sharks", are going to eat them alive. And it is less about simply being new, but being new and bad and really unaware of how bad you are. I think you can be a poker noob, and not necessarily a fish.
If you call someone a fish, you are judging his game. And judging something has an element of opinion inherently (if you realise that or not). For that reason, by definition, this judgement of yours cannot be „facts“. An opinion can never be a fact, as the letter requires an objective element whereas an opinion is subjective. So, you are not making sense (even though I do get your point which is „deal with it, it’s not that bad to be called a fish“).
@@ThePokerBank I've put myself weeks behind but I think I recognize my mistakes. It's all due to my emotional game. Once I control that, I can gain back what I lost. I will get better and I will get back in the green. You're a huge help to get me there. 💕
People are just too "woke" can't accept that their play is sometimes bad at some frequency, no matter what you do in life. You'll always be a fish as a beginner.
Poker is mentally brutal. If you can’t handle the gentle sting of being called a fish, poker is not for you. Play Go Fish instead. Also, calling it discrimination is just ridiculous and ignorant to what discrimination actually entails.
If you're making any of these 10 BEGINNER MISTAKES, you might be a poker fish: ua-cam.com/video/rkBgqwycGNw/v-deo.html
Fish is a relative term. They're players who were crushing the game 20-30 years ago and would be able to make a full time living off the game. Not because they were decent at the game, but because their opposition was so bad relative to them. However, transport them into a random mid-stakes cash game today and they would be regarded as a fish.
Definitely. Even 12-15 years ago on pokerstars it was shooting fish in a barrel. The skill level has increased so much since then.
I got way over 3 decades of poker playing. I am a fish when it comes to certain poker games or aspects of them at least and a total fox in others. I have studied poker maths and odds basics in early 2000s and revisited that some years ago and still on that route with the more modern poker strategies. I just lack the motivation to grind poker enough to justify paying for learning. The learning part that I do is out of interest and love for the game(s).
I am a fish for the better studied people, easy to acknowledge. My biggest edge is that I know most if not all forms of poker rather well. And the biggest edge is for live gaming as I play people really well and can extract tells from people and act my own well enough to get most people off the track. The leaks are that I tend to play a bit too many hands and that leads to unpleasant places with the desicions.
Nicely said!
If the word fish is causing you problems, the mental game is defeating you already. Let it go, it doesn't matter and will only cause you to make more mistakes.
So true.
What do you think the "new" player is going to experience more: the idiot at their local casino who taunts every new player they win a hand against with a sarcastic "Nice hand, ya fish!", or the calm, neutral, factual description that SplitSuit describes? I freakin' guarantee it's going to be option 1. Maybe I'm outdated here but I started playing when "Bugsy's Club" was the big online poker site that everyone knew. (Anybody else remember that one?) You didn't start playing online, you graduated to it. I suspect that's often still the case although I may be wrong. I'd be interested to see the numbers.
That said, the word itself isn't the problem, it's the player attitude, and there's unfortunately not much you can do about that. Bullies will find a way to bully. That said, "fish" is associated so much with an obnoxious mindset of driving new players away (who you should want around for your bank balance if nothing else!) that I for one would be happy to see it die.
"Everyone is doing the best they can." No they aren't. Fish show up to GAMBO. Many of them aren't even aware that it's possible to win at poker, or they simply don't care.
👍
I’m unashamedly a fish, everyone’s gotta start somewhere
Yes indeed!
2:26 if you can't handle being called a fish, you probably a fish
Just a great video for poker and outside of poker. We’ll done split suit. Loved it!
Cheers JK!
Maybe this is a category error on my part, but the definition of what you call a fish here (bottom 10%) is what I would call a donkey.
A fish I think is something separate, a player who ostensibly knows in their head which hands they should be folding without question but they have poor impulse control and just HAVE to see the flop or just HAVE to see the showdown.
Getting better for them is sometimes less about improving their understanding of the game and more about self-control.
But that's just my interpretaton.
We could slice and dice jargon/categories all day, but I 100% agree that improvement in impulse control would be a far better usage of time =)
Good video...I've been playing about 10 years and still make donk plays and still make fishy plays; it doesn't define me as a person or a player.
Nicely said!
Now this I agree with! But turn it around. A new player's first exposure to "fish" - probably multiple first exposures - is probably going to be something thrown at them as an insult. So when someone like James, a poker strategist, starts using the same terms in his videos, what impression do you think that's gonna give them? Looking it from the new player's perspective?
@@H0lyMoley I'd suggest we should strongly discourage poker players from insulting other players in any manner.
@@H0lyMoley In the full podcast episode I linked to, I did specifically discuss videos vs commentary where audiences vary massively. My YT audience is a much lower % of "fish", so usage on this channel is very different. I wouldn't use the word "fish" when commentating on a produced game with a wider audience though.
@@ThePokerBank That is a good point regarding different audiences. As for your audience, say "new players" and I'd agree with you. Speaking personally, I don't claim to be anything special. There was a time in the mid-2000s when I think I could've gone pro, but that just wasn't the plan, so... eh. Nowadays I regard myself as mediocre at best, but I still at least try and keep up with things like range analysis (which was so, so, so far from being a "thing" when I started playing!) Like you say, it's about how much time you have to dedicate yourself to learning the game, and someone who does this professionally is obviously going to have the edge over a rec like me. That's ok, I don't mind being a medium-sized fish(!) in a small pond.
Of course it's a discriminating term, that's the whole point of it. Discriminating just means putting something into a category, something we all do every day. It's not inherently a bad thing.
yeah i agree to consider new players fish but i dont like calling them a fish in their faces, i just refer to them with others not in their faces. they might get offended and not donate
correct.
James, James, James... Listen, James... There is a general understanding of the term "fish". There are even poker dictionaries that define the term. So, it is not up to you to define it and regard that as law. It is, in general, a "derogatory" term. "Fishy" is usually an adjective but can also be used as a verb. "Recreational players" is the more adequate term to describe a less than average poker player. Although, recreational players do range from below average to about average. There are some that can actually play above average. A fish is just a constant losing player making bad decisions on the poker table. Below average players (your bottom 10%) are found on weekends at popular casinos or card rooms. But, I would say nowadays your average poker player plays better than what many people might think. I see poker players in levels as in a hierarchy. You have your beginners/rookies/novices, amateurs, experienced/intermediates, advanced/experts, and your professionals at different levels. With all that said, even your professionals can lose in a constant manner. Important to note: A higher level pro can view a lower level pro as "fish" to them and they will prove it!
That's a lot of words to say that you agree with me.
@@ThePokerBank - You didn't point out all that I did. Not once did you say it is a derogatory term. You also never mentioned the term recreational players. So, no... it's not an agreement with you, it is an extension of information. Even though you might agree with me, I didn't take 9 minutes of soft spoken speech to share this...
I think Fish is a relative term and not an absolute as the original poster was trying to define.
Against the average card room table near me...maybe a semi-pro/serious player....2-3 regs...2-3 experienced rec players and 2 non-experience rec players I'm likely in the reg-experience rec level of competence. I lose long term but slowly...having more winning sessions than losing (win a buy in 2 times and lose 2 or 3 the next time)
I can be a fish at some of the bigger rooms, like in Vegas, when I'm up against pros and regs. Their study and experience have me playing sub-optimally against them and my losing sessions outnumber the winning ones.
If you're a top 10% player, overall winning but maybe not at quit your job level rates.... but you're seated against top 1% players that only live on what they take out of your bankroll....you're the fish.
this video is packed to the gills with logic.
so you thought it was fin-tastic?
@@ThePokerBank yes...pescadelic
😆
I would actually recommend an an occasional fishy/donk play especially when in a room of unknown players. I love being underestimated. As the good book says “pride comes before destruction.” Let the average player think they’re Phil Ivey haha…
I'm a fish at swimming.
...ummm...wait a second.
lol
Everybody is a fish sometimes. It’s called tilt.
Umm...depends on the field. Sure, I'm positive in live $50 mtts, but usually losing, min-cash or bubbling at $250+. That's ok, I don't have a $25k bankroll for mtts. Playing better players & studying is how I get better, so I have a regular social game with the serious players. Yep, I set aside money for those games, say $200, but that's not from my poker bankroll.
Honestly, these guys play $1000 mtts, so when I [often] run deep against them, I'm cool with neg ev. No, I don't think I'm a fish there, I get in & battle for pots, but yeah, I'll follow up that Redchip email. I want to keep improving or what's the point? Ta.
Nicely said =)
Have you done a segment on how to overcome a table full of Fish? I play at Twin River in RI 1-2 cash game. I play fairly tight but almost every pot 6/7 people try to limp or limp call almost any raise. So I can beat 1,2 people but how do you beat 6 people ever time without raising outrageous all the time? Example I had 6 way all in for $159. I had AK and the hands that called me were J-10, AJ,KQ,5’s and 2’s. KQ won with Q on flop and River. I want to move up but don’t have bankroll for 2/5 yet
Part of it is raise sizing. Maybe make it more preflop if everybody calls your bets.Also, when multiway, you can pretty much play straight forward. I.e. six ways bet top pair top kicker or better. But pot control if called.
I have! ua-cam.com/video/UwXZcLHs1Y8/v-deo.html
sometimes i need to became fish..in order to catch big fish..
If a big fish could identify a fish, how big of a fish are they really?
Ooooh, we got a snowflake.. Thanks for helping turning is into not fish anymore, James ;)!
Glad to help!
@@ThePokerBank James... when was the last time you were in a small-town casino with a three-whisky-strong "table captain" who says "nice hand, fish" to everyone he beats (because if he said what he wanted to say, which is "you're a stupid f--k", they'd just throw him out)? That's the "new player experience" of the word "fish".
It's all about how it's used. In the vast majority of cases, I'd argue it's used in an insulting or demeaning way. You seem to regard it as a neutral term. Do you think the new player at the casino that night would think the same thing?
It's not the word that's the problem, it's the attitude of the person using it. But then the word is so strongly connected TO the attitude that I would be quite happy to see it die.
EDIT: I'll add to that, I definitely think the person in this example was being oversensitive, given that you didn't use the word about them at all! But as to your general point, no, we don't need to be adding to new players' stresses by using something as a term that they've probably only heard before as an insult, no matter how good our intentions might be.
@@H0lyMoley About the person who calls another person "fish" at the tables in a live game, they are going to sling an insulting word one way or the other. You could argue that them saying "fish" is far better than the other words they likely have in their insult vocabulary lol
@@ThePokerBank Now that, sadly, I agree with. And unfortunately there's not a lot you can do about that. I've been playing live poker for twenty-five plus years now (if some of my rather old-school terms in comments I've made on your previous videos haven't made that clear already!) And I've seen a few people thrown out of games for just constantly harrassing another player without any "bad language" whatsoever. All that said, I wouldn't ever use "fish" or "donk" because I've seen them used, in the vast majority of cases, as insults. I just keep them out of my poker vernacular. It's easier.
(Sometimes they're used as incorrect insults, which is even more annoying for some reason. Especially online. A player calls someone who just played badly and lost a "donk". Dude, if they were a "donk", they would've won! Fish = bad player who loses. Donk = bad player who wins. If you're going to be an a--hole, at least get your terms right.)
@@H0lyMoleyI‘d say people these days simply need to get a thicker skin. This is Poker - they better be able to handle a little stress, wtf 😂..
My understanding of the label fish, is that the better players, the "sharks", are going to eat them alive. And it is less about simply being new, but being new and bad and really unaware of how bad you are. I think you can be a poker noob, and not necessarily a fish.
Fair.
Depends on the game I'm playing
If you call someone a fish, you are judging his game. And judging something has an element of opinion inherently (if you realise that or not). For that reason, by definition, this judgement of yours cannot be „facts“. An opinion can never be a fact, as the letter requires an objective element whereas an opinion is subjective. So, you are not making sense (even though I do get your point which is „deal with it, it’s not that bad to be called a fish“).
Someone offended by calling them a fish, amazing. You sir are obviously anti-fishite 😂
Yes
My bankroll will reflect the answer.
⚖
@@ThePokerBank I've put myself weeks behind but I think I recognize my mistakes. It's all due to my emotional game. Once I control that, I can gain back what I lost. I will get better and I will get back in the green. You're a huge help to get me there. 💕
@@idrisbalavakos cheers Idris! And just making sure you didn't miss this bankroll video: ua-cam.com/video/lLGrIO0C5tE/v-deo.html
People are just too "woke" can't accept that their play is sometimes bad at some frequency, no matter what you do in life. You'll always be a fish as a beginner.
No.
golfish, puntastic
👍
Poker is mentally brutal. If you can’t handle the gentle sting of being called a fish, poker is not for you. Play Go Fish instead.
Also, calling it discrimination is just ridiculous and ignorant to what discrimination actually entails.
Yup. Dare I say, there are "bigger fish to fry" lol
So you’re a poker fish. Goofball
I'm scared to watch.
It's going to be okay, Knish.
When you are scared, you are a fish 😬
You'll be OK =)