The Lingering Mystery of the Cocoanut Grove Nightclub Fire
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- Опубліковано 14 лис 2019
- Historians, filmmakers, researchers, and others have covered much of the Cocoanut Grove Nightclub fire, but there is a lingering mystery about the incident too. In this episode of Learn Something New™ from NFPA Journal®, Casey Grant offers some insight based on continued study of the tragic event.
Using modern fire modeling principles, it is apparent there are too many missing pieces to confirm why the fire traveled so fast. Too much is unknown about the interior finishes, the combustible materials in the construction, and whether there were other contributing factors. It remains a mystery nearly 80 years later.
The fact that 492 people died that fateful night in November 1942 should never be forgotten.
For more information, go to www.nfpa.org/cocoanutgrove.
©2019 National Fire Protection Association® (NFPA®). All rights reserved.
My dads entire family died in this fire when he was just 6 months old. It left him and his young brother orphaned. I visit this site every time I am in Boston to pay my respects to everyone and a side of my family I will never get to know or learn about. Thank you for your video.
Wow! So very sorry
There may be a Bigger Story at Play:
ua-cam.com/video/2HQDzZta_y4/v-deo.html
(Skip to 9min Mark)
My deepest condolences ❤️
So, very, sad. God Bless...
I am very sorry for your loss.
497 deaths. Absolutely insane! My heart genuinely aches for those people!
492.
As a fire investigator, I usually describe my job to other people as "trying to put the puzzle together with half the pieces burnt up". This is a good example showing that while we can still get a good sense of what the picture is, some of the pieces of evidence will never be found or known, and we will never know every single detail.
Too bad they didn't save more evidence. You'd think someone would figure A, that would be the 2nd deadliest US fire for a very long time, if not forever, beating The Great Chicago fire by 190 bodies (2 people got counted twice, the big bartender and a woman).
And 2, that we'd have much more sophisticated fire technology later on.
Also, there should be a movie on it as a cautionary tale, but what got saved is extremely small.
As a mother of 5 kids, I always tell my friends that finding out which kid spilled milk on the floor and didn't clean it up until the carpet had to be replaced is difficult, but not impossible. I'm relying on the fact that they will tell their wife or husband, and I'll find out from my daughter-in-law.
Storage costs money that the City of Boston 1942 didn’t have (still recovering from the Depression and currently in a fight to the death with Germany, Italy, Japan).
@@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823 NO IT WAS IROUQUIS THEATRE 602 PEOPLE
my aunt and uncle were there earlier that night in the melody room, my aunt was there with some girl friends and when my uncle arrive they stayed for just a little while; my uncle was a very intuitive man and he felt it was a fire trap with all the people in such a small location that he decide they needed to leave, several of my aunts girlfriends passed that night.
The BFD report noted leatherette covering high on the walls of the foyer, which would exude flammable gases when exposed to the fire coming from the Melody Lounge, and a ventilation fan on the opposite side of the foyer from the Melody Lounge entrance, which would literally suck the burning gas the length of the foyer.
My uncle Conrad died in fire. R.I.P. Conrad Sergienko
From what I've learned, the air conditioning system ran on methyl chloride. This is thought to be responsible for the fires' early and rapid surge. Sadly it was a perfect storm of causes that all lined up that fateful night.
The material of some of the chairs and the fact many victims displayed signs of cyanide poisoning has intrigued me for some time.
Have you compared it to The Station? It's identical in over 12+ ways: both in winter, both way overcrowded, both had an innocent fall guy (Biechle and Stanley Tomaschevski, sp?), both run by brothers, both overly concerned about their money to where they both had a woman either die or come near death guarding a cash box...
Winds of March Journey/Perry tribute band this is really interesting, I never noticed there were so many similarities between the two. So eerie. 😞
One documentary said one of the reasons why it spread so quickly in the melody lounge is because of an air conditioner that used methyl chloride as its refrigerant, and if this a/c was used throughout the building, it could also explain the speed
Yes, it clung to the ceiling.
Chiffon decorations, ropes, wires, and wire insulation, and I like how he mentioned hydrocarbon refrigerants ... almost unheard of in most of the later half of the 20th century. This was before most modern dropped ceilings. This fire has more commonalities with naval and submarine fires than with any other building fires of the era. I think it was ventilation and confined spaces that contributed to the spread, along with some kind of spreading mechanism that was unique to the venue.
@@JamesMangle Well, I hear that only mechanical engineering lecturers in Australia can utilize hydrocarbon refrigerants in vehicles, so at least those are safe!
It must have something to do with the way the air was circulating and the particular angles between the various levels of rooms in the club. Think of the King's Cross fire in the London Subway, and the fires on the Star and the Yarmouth Castle cruise ships. Probably, the decorating materials on the walls and ceilings combined with blocked exits and panicked people becoming entrapped by one another, like The Station tragedy, had a lot to do with the high death toll.
A reconstruction of the Kings Cross fire showed that the shape of the tunnels caused the fire to behave in a blow torch effect ... maybe that happened at the Grove due to the shape of foyer
Didn’t this flash over effect happen at the MGM grand fire in Las Vegas 1980 . It started as a small fire but once the fire entered the casino flammable materials in the casino went up in flames in a matter of seconds.
Sounds a lot like the Dupont Plaza Hotel fire in 1986 as well.
Excellent presentation on what precautions to take in a niteclub...Be aware of the location of a fire exit...a mental map of how to get there...flee before you burn, etc...
Very interesting! I like this new series!
What was really bad was the fact that even when customers were trying to flee, staff were stopping them demanding paychecks.
Combustible material aside, you mean to say as large as this establishment was, even in comparison to modern day nightclubs - and like the fire incidents of the last two decades, this place _STILL_ had only _ONE_ accessible entrance for _all_ patrons?
The revolving door main entrance on Piedmont Street. Staff had a better survival rate because of knowledge of a kitchen door and windows. Other exits were locked or hidden to prevent bill jumpers from leaving.
Crazy how this tragedy occurred many years after The Triangle Shirt Waist Fire in NYC. Although not a commercial workplace but a club, you’d have thought we would have learned and prevented or reduced the extent of this fire based on the history of Triangle. Sad day.
The explosive, fast movement of the fire is similar to what happened here in Las Vegas in Nov.1980. the old MGM/now Bally's resort. Electrical fire at East end of complex somehow turned into a fast moving fireball. Went thru the main casino and out the main entrance with such force it set fire to a parked car and a valet. Most of the 87 dead were guests in upper floors overcome by smoke. But the firemen responded qwivkly enough that it was kept to bottom two floors of a 30 story bldg. Thereby saving HUNDREDS OF LIVES. BUT NO memorial placque honors them. There should be.
I think everywhere a tragedy has occurred, there needs to be a memorial marker for all the victims who lost their lives and for those injured
All should be remembered...
No one should ever be forgotten...
The Coconut Grove disaster is a mystery to me. It also reminds me of the Our Lady Of The Angles fire that occurred on December 1, 1958 in the City of Chicago that claimed the lives of 92 innocent children and 3 teaching Nuns. In that fire that was arson, the fire got a stronghold before anyone noticed it. The building was of brick construction but had wood interior construction as well as years of floor wax, highly varnished and painted walls that fed the fire. Due to the lack of fire safety equipment, and there was no second floor fire door the fire raced up the staircase and worked it's way into a pipe chase that went from the basement all the way to the cockloft. The origin of the fire was in the basement of the North staircase. It was started in a cardboard barrel by a student that tossed 3 or 4 lit matches into the barrel then returned to class. The students were trapped in second floor classrooms. These classrooms had the glass transoms that once the fire dropped into the hallway, the super heated gasses blasted through them setting the rooms alight.
May all that were lost in those fires rest in peace. They did not die in vein, as many fire safety laws were enacted and to this day protect the public. If anyone wants to find more information on the OLA fire, there is a website OLAFIRE.COM. I highly recommend it. Stay safe Brothers and Sisters.
The official cause of the school fire was "undetermined". At the time of igniton, several students took papers there to the bins. It is specuated that one had lit a cigarette and disposed of it improperly.
@@Episcopalianacolyte Hi, Officially, it was undetermined. I have read every book published and is friends with one of the survivors. The feeling is that it was arson committed by a ten year old student that had come from a dysfunctional family. You can google the fire on the internet and discover the name of the person who started the fire. He has since passed away but the name is out there.
@@JohnM1774 either way, it is still a trajedy.
Absolutely. Those children and Sisters must have been so freighted. I know my friend was but also was at peace having his faith. Thank God he was able to be rescued along with his class by Father Hund and Janitor Mr. James Raymond. May they Rest in Peace.
My mom wanted to go. The place was so packed.her and girlfriend’s were not let in ,they went back to their hotel room. Thank God they were sent back .I would not be here today . Love you MOM you have gone to long today.
The closed caption for this video is horrendous!
My grandfather handled one of the many lawsuits filed after the fire
Other sources older than this say as a matter of fact that the rapid spread was driven by highly flammable methyl chloride refrigerant. Like it's no mystery at all.
It's consistent with a lot of information including descriptions of the fire at its outbreak, the smell of the smoke, and the location of air conditioning condenser units on the opposite side of the wall where the fire started. There is one conundrum, though: methyl chloride is heavier than air, so something had to concentrate it at ceiling level. Jack Deady was the son of one of the original investigators and an amateur researcher who gave talks at NFPA events, and he proposed a solution that methyl chloride, leaking from condensers near street level, accumulated in the enclosed space above the false ceiling of the basement Melody Lounge. There are some intriguing details of the outbreak of fire: some witnesses described it as a "flash" and it was a persistent fire in the fronds of the palm decoration that resisted dousing with water. Ignition of such decorations had occurred before in the Melody Lounge and they had been quickly extinguished with water. The fire only started to spread when the decoration was pulled away from the false ceiling, taking with it a triangular piece of plywood that had enclosed the corner of the false ceiling. I think that is quite significant. Methyl chloride trapped above the false ceiling would pour through the opening driven by density and spread the fire above the false ceiling as it mixed with oxygen rushing in from below. The flame front along the false ceiling was faint blue. How bright is a flame burning pure methyl chloride? Could methyl chloride have leaked through the false ceiling and been ignited by Tomaszewski's match? Would a methyl chloride fire be disguised by the brighter flames from the fronds that were in turn ignited by a methyl chloride fire? Was a methyl chloride fire re-igniting the fronds after they were doused with water?
There is some indication of previous ignition within the wall that evening. Witnesses reported that the wall had been uncomfortably hot, which suggests that methyl chloride could have been ignited within it, either burning out burning slowly for lack of oxygen. Researcher Charles Kenney proposed that the fire ignited due to an electrical fault within the wall. If that is the case, the fire breaking through at the corner and igniting the fronds was a highly unfortunate coincidence for Tomaszewski.
@@gcrav If the corner of the false ceiling opened up and the space was full of MeCl, it would have caused a powerful flashover the moment it opened with all that MeCl mixing with fresh O2. I like that theory. It wouldn't pour out like water, but one little flame would set off powerful currents to mix the gasses.
So Kenney says the fire started in the wall (which might have warmed the MeCl in the false ceiling, priming it for flashover?), then ignited the tree, but does he comment on the burning tree as the ignition source for the MeCl in the false ceiling? It seems to me an electrical fire in the wall would have to have been pretty big (and quite obvious) to ignite the tree.
Was Tomaszewski the busboy? I don't think for a minute his match started the fire. I think that, regardless of the actual cause, it was a tragic coincidence for him.
it was heat that night from weather.a club jammed full people giving massive loads of body heat into what what effectually an underground oven.you get to a much faster Flash over.yhe interesting fire coparison to this fire was the mgm grand in las vegas.compare the interior shots and body shots between the two.i survived the heald of free enterprise where it was the cold that killed therr
When you haven't got all the pieces, strip it back to what you do know: fuel heat and oxygen (or oxidiser).
I wonder if any forensic samples of combustion residue from this fire still exist
What kind of fire would behave like this?
Lack of burn damage to the interior plus the survivor testimony indicates the fire was very fast. Is the physical evidence consistent with the survivor testimony?
To me, a draft driven shock wave through such a maze.
Look at The Station. It was gone and engulfed in under 3 minutes. Completely destroyed. Nothing left. The Grove took about 12 minutes total. And was of course, a set of brick buildings.
The Iroquois was another one. A fireball got thrown into the crowd when they opened the stage door to let the smoke out.
I feel so badly for the young 15 year old whose actions may or may not have ignited the fire. He wasn’t charged, as the reason for the fire to start is unknown. Still, his name is included in nearly every bit of media I’ve watched or read on the incident. I’m not suggesting that his name be wiped from official records - sanitizing history is not something I want to encourage - however, something about naming him on a UA-cam video or a seems unfair. Even if the match he lit did ignite the flammable material, it was accidental, and the fire spread as it did due to the cost cutting of the owner and the inspector turning a blind eye to the problem. I fear that he blamed himself for the rest of his life.
An excelerent was used for that fire to move that fast. And those revolving doors, that glass could have been shattered with a dining room chair ! People panicked and that's what caused so many people to die, it wasn't safety measures, People panicked.
In Elementary School We always had Fire Prevention Week, Stop, drop and roll if you are on fire, stay as close to the floor as possible, crawl out, stay in a single file. If the door is hot, there's a fire behind it.
50 Years Old and I still remember what my Hometown Fire Department taught Us in Elementary School.
It WAS safety measures. Exit doors for emergency exits were locked or boarded up to prevent patrons from leaving without paying.. Not sure if there were fire sprinklers in the building but there should have been and weren't. Yes people paniced I'd panic oto if the emergency exit was locked shut.
An accelerant does not need to be used for a fire to spread fast. Fires need Oxygen, heat, and fuel, you can add a chemical reaction but it isn’t needed.
The fronds that caught fire first were made of flammable material. People did panic but that was because doors were locked and they couldn’t escape. The windows were boarded up so they couldn’t be smashed. There was one exit and it was a revolving door. Stop, drop, and roll doesn’t save you if there is no exit. When the revolving door finally broke it flooded the fire with oxygen incinerating all the people by the door. 50 years old, you should still remember how to research and not accuse victims of causing their own death due to lack of safety measures.
Shape of the building?
bro why i get drunk and wagch this man IL sobbing like a bitchrn
Hey it's EricSurf6 at 1:24
Sure is! I came to the comments to see if anyone else noticed and knew of him! Get Some!
Cest de la pur mise en scène, dans une situation pareille cest pas la police une normale va apelle dabord, surtout au vous avez juste prevu de la chasser et non la boter. En plus cest quelle amusement menuisier la a fait, donc il a cassé porte la 😂comme ca hin. Prenez moi au sérieux svp
Warning for people with sensitive ears or misophonia. Do not listen to this with headphones. Great story but alot of smacking sounds and high pitch S sounds. Listen without headphones on a low volume.
Was Boston a Democratic-run city back then? I guess I'll googolplex it.
Pffttt... of _course_ it was! Boston has a history of electing grifters and criminals to feed at the public trough!
The owner of the club was a total weasel. He had been a lawyer for a prior mob owner gunned down during Prohibition. The owner was close with the Democratic municipal power structure. He had contributed a lot to the current mayor , Maurice Tobin. A ledger was found in the ruins of the club with all the free entertainment and dining given to municipal and state bigwigs. Unfortunately it was in code and the owner wouldn't talk.
The owner had mob ties, did he maybe douse the building with accelerant with plans to torch the place at some point for the insurance money?
NO THE COCONUT GROVE WAS A MONEY MACHINE
No it wasn't heavily insured. The owner was more of a generic sleazeball, though he had gotten the place from the estate of the Prohibition era mobster who was gunned down. The owner was paying off municipal officials to cut corners at the club.