I'm honestly don't know. There seems to be a lot of speculation but no good answers. I'm not the only one that has experienced problems. With some beekeepers it seems to be more of a maintenance treatment than a curative treatment. Some report that if you start with low counts it helps keep them low but if you start with high numbers it doesn't seem to bring them down. You may have seen my video that shows UGA and Auburn University doing research on Aluen Cap (Argentina version) with my bees and others in Alabama and Maryland that shows much the same results. I listened to Randy on a Zoom meeting in the Northeast tell beekeepers that the research done on Extended OA in Georgia a while back may have been done wrong in order to get such negative results but it was my bees and I can report that I was surprised at how precise the UGA crew followed the procedures and even so, I still ended up losing most of the colonies treated with it going into winter. The ones that survived did so because we followed up immediately with Apivar. The UGA crew was willing to let me intervene early when it became clear that things weren't going well, and I would probably lose a lot of colonies, but I told them to let it run it's course to make sure their data wasn't compromised. It seemed like they were hesitant to publish the negative results for a long time but I heard that it may have come out recently (I haven't seen it yet). I have a friend that currently runs 4500 colonies that followed Randy's procedures to a T and ended up loosing nearly half of his colonies because he assumed it was working when he put it on in September up north and didn't check back until late October after they had all been moved back to Florida. By then the rapidly expanding damage was obvious and he immediately began treating with something else to save them. He now admits that he should have been paying closer attention but he waited because he was very busy and thought it should be working because of everything he had read. All that having been said I do have several friends that are sideline beekeepers that keep it on continually and report good results most of the time. Because of their reports, and because it now seems to be OK to keep OA on during a nectar flow, I may need to take another close look at this.
I don’t trust it, nope nope nope. The worst thing about this all is the uncertainty of its efficacy. This is not acceptable. Where is that panic button ! I wonder what continuous treatment of that OAE will ultimately do to the hive, or the mites ability to tolerate it. Have they determined the mechanism it kills mites yet?
Couldn't help but notice the Grainger and McMaster Carr catalogs on your bookshelf. Always good to see fellow beekeepers that know which end of a screwdriver is the handle!
this was good but what happened it was 2 short, I am doing a treatment today high 47-48, keep the videos coming I enjoy every one of them. thank u for giving us your knowledge to help us keep our bees alive. Have a blessed day the 8 frame lids I got from u are the best I have ever bought u sell excellent bee equipment.
I do the same thing Bob. I use Apiguard in the summer after I pull supers and then hit the bees with OAV 3-4 times as we go into the winter. (I also try to post a video once a week on a Sunday haha) I find this really reduces the mites down to such a low level that spring treatment isn’t necessary and the bees can focus on the flow. Interesting about the dribble harming the exoskeleton. Did not know that. Good info!
Bob, your the man. Your videos are awesome and very informative. I have been following you for 2 yrs and you are my go to guy on the internet. Even if I know the information I’m tuning in. Thank you.
49F and sunny here today 12/4 in Eastern Pa, bees were flying so i felt good about a late-season OA vapor hit! Had about a dozen bees in each hive make their way out past the rag white as a ghost so hopefully, knocked em back good!
I do only dribble and I do it once. Dribble method maybe harmful to bees, but vaporizing is harmful to beekeeper. Good luck, and happy beekeeping to all!!!
I've found using a single dose of OA dribble with a modified BBOA technique to be very effective. Your brood break OA video discussion with Berry and Bartlett is one of my favorites. Thank you Bob for sharing ☺️
I've used single application OA dribble in late fall (mid Nov-mid Dec) for 4 years now. I see no Ill effects by following dosage closely. Come out in spring with mite counts of mostly 0 with an occasional 1. Just one application though. It's a maintenance/cleanup application not a reduction strategy. That I do in August with formic.
Southern Ontario here. I have had poor success driving down high mite counts with OAV in August and agree 100% with your comments on treating with OAV when capped brood is present. I'd like to read a study on damage to exoskeleton caused by dribble, If there is one please supply a reference if you can. Living where winter means snow from December until April/May (most years) I can identify a very extended period when colonies are broodless and ALL the mites are phoretic. An OA dribble in October/November when broodless and when bees are clustered can be invaluable. I doubt it would work nearly as well if bees are not clustered and probably be ineffective if brood is present. Yes, dribble is hard on the bees that ingest it and applying too much (or too frequently) will poison the colony as will a batch mixed too strong. There are very clearly defined formulations for dribble. The best beekeeping practises vary widely across different climate zones. Your videos travel instantly across all of them. I appreciate your knowledge and experience and especially your willingness to share.
My comments on the slight affects of the dribble method on the exoskeleton were based on comments and discussions I had with a couple of researchers I know. Neither one of them have any studies published on the subject but said it was just an observation. They both said it takes more than one application to have a great enough affect to show up as a problem. Thank you.
This year I do it like this. Spring 1st hive opening Apidez Honey flow 2 exteactions 3 x treatment bisanar Sunflower honey extraction 1 x ekopol ...... They claim that it is enough but I will check with oxalic acid vaporization
Bob, thank you for addressing this subject. I have been following Randy Oliver who uses the dribble method and considered using it this year. I appreciate your info and I am evaluating which method I will ultimately do. Guess I need to decide quickly.
One of the questions we all have to ask is, How are everyone's reports with this stuff when it comes to queen issues. I know we've seen MASSIVE queen sterilization from apistan, where we were switching out HUNDREDS of queens after a single low-dose of the stuff. And Formic slabs can outright just make a queen not very viable after the fact. I also see apiguard shock a yard of palleted hives, even at 25gram dosing. where it does toast the brood nest entirely out and then you lose that last bit of momentum you needed before winter. Especially in our area where it goes from WARM to freezing with no "in-between".
I can only report my own casual observation which is that vaporization has very little issues with queens. That would be a good research project for someone which may have already been done.
Thanks Bob could u give some advice on switching from small honey sales retail to bulk honey sales wholesale and the requirements needed to sale to big packers? Luv your videos buddy please keep them coming.
Thanks, I agree about the comments. When I started making videos I realized how much can be gained by reading comments and answers and now I find myself doing it often on other videos.
Depending on what the weather lets us do we'll try for 7 to 10 days apart. We're hoping to start any day now (it's raining right now) and if we are able to do what we want we'll be done within 20 days.
The key is to make em fill up on syrup so ingestion is minimal..I spray em and make them clean it up and come back and dribble..my dribble is a $1 pump spray bottle, 4 sprays per seam is same math as dribble..very easy on the bees doing it this way compared to empty stomachs ,I know it supposed to hurt the exoskeleton but honestly not as bad as varroa drops a nice cluster..just my opinion from my experiences with it.Vape is nearly impossible to hurt bees unless their outta balance already though..as always good information !
Hi Bob, Thanks again for sharing your time and bee keeping skills. For those who may use candy/sugar boards, have you heard/experienced if residual OA on the surface of the candy board from OAV causes any ingestion issues?
I've not heard of anyone addressing that but it's a good question. I would guess (and it is just a guess) that the danger is much less with a candy board because with the liquid dribble method the bees are literally being invited to ingest it immediately and completely in what may end up being a higher concentration.
As someome who has used OA dribble for more than multiple decades the real research question I currently have been unable to source a clesr answer for is as to whether OA dribble fabricated with glycerin is; 1. More, less, or equally effective; 2 More, less or equally hard on the bees than that which is made up with sucrose. ?? Did a few tests myself but the data to gsrner a fully complete and acurrste answer requires a lot of dilignce and a large sample size than weve put in . Mabye next year.
Randy Oliver likes the glycerin better, he has a bunch of research behind it. Am still using sugar water myself and like the results I am getting, despite being never broodless. (mid-Florida)
Dibble with the glycerin recipe is used alot in Italy. And using an uncapping fork to remove around 500 brood cells, to make them broodless is winter common practice too. Fork + dribble is much better than hope + dribble
Hi JR. Check out these thre videos. ua-cam.com/video/ACqrvbNJC7w/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/nfbIZ9XMPOg/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/k3ZBC-BXAp4/v-deo.html
@BobBinnie you have mentioned that OA dribble shouldn't be used more than once per year, it was also mentioned by Jennifer Berry in one of your previous videos. My question is: do you mean only once per year in winter (treatment for overwintering bees) or in general (including the summer bees)? Can you please elaborate more on this? Thank you for your great videos! Greetings from Macedonia.
The main problem with dribble is that it is a bit hard on the bees therefore, in my opinion, it shouldn't be used twice until the colony population has replaced itself. Winter or summer.
Hi Bob, I was rewatching some videos trying to get the latest information on your late year OA treatment procedure. On May 30, 2021 you released a video entitled "Varroa Mite Treatment Results" where you stated you treat 3 times in late Nov/ early Dec using 2 grams of OA sublimation per deep box. In this video you say you'll be using 3 grams per deep box. I believe in another video you stated possibly using 4 grams per deep box. Can you tell me what your late Nov/ early Dec OA treatment procedure is in dose and interval please? I understand that temperature is important and expect we'll get a few more days between 42-48 degrees Fahrenheit in SE New Hampshire. Thank you.
Our plans this year are to treat two times approximately two weeks apart with 3 to 4 grams per box once the colonies are broodless. Recent research is showing that 3 grams does a good job with 4 being slightly better.
@@bobbinnie9872. After your response last month I watched a video called "Control Varroa in your honey bee colonies by Dr. Cameron Jack" where Dr. Jack discusses various OA dosages and the effects on his test colonies. Since Nov 17 I have treated 7 times with 4g / deep using both the ProVap (treatments 1 & 2) and the InstantVap (treatments 3-7). My colonies (I have six) are very healthy, in very good tightly sealed wooden-ware and were very productive this season. Since I am a hobbyist, and since we've been experiencing a shift in weather patterns in the northeast (I live in zone 6a, formerly zone 5b), I can plan treatments on those days when the weather is optimal (sunny and above 40 degrees). I see absolutely no ill effect on my colonies due to the OA. After treatment #1 I saw approximately 150 dead mites in one colony (Italian genetics from the southeast), maybe 100 in a second colony (same genetics) and minor drops (between 30-50) in four other colonies that have new queens from this Jun 2023. These new queens came from Troy Hall who has a queen breeding program in Plainfield, NH. I believe they are a Caucasian Carniolan mix. When counting the numbers from treatments #3 to #6, the numbers overall are very low, but they do jump due to emerging brood. For instance treatment #5 on Dec 9 gave me 0, 6, 0, 2, 6, 3 mites. Treatment #6 on Dec 15 gave me 2, 12, 1, 5, 5, 15. My last treatment (#7) was Dec 20. I'll be counting later today. As to the Pro and Instant Vaps, you are right that a large operation like yours would not benefit from the Instant Vap due to the cost of the batteries. You would need to invested batteries with double the amp hours. I have two DeWalt XR batteries (mfg dates 2017 & 2018 respectively), both 20V 5Ah and I need both to heat and treat all 6 of my colonies with the InstantVap. The InstantVap does work better. I need to set the heat higher for the amount of OA I'm using, so just ordered a DeWalt Flexvolt 20V/60V Max at 9Ah on Amazon for $139. Thank you Bob.
What do you think about the following:. Giving the queen a brood break on a queen excluder frame and then treating with oxalic acid? How effective would that be for mite treatment? How long does the brood break need to be? What time of the year is best for Chattanooga area?
That does work if done properly and now would be the time to do it. You would release the queen back to the rest of the colony a few days before all sealed brood disappears in the frames she's isolated from, throw away the frame she has been isolated on and then treat.
Hi Bob, I am new in beekeeping from Belgium with two hives since May, you said you apply 3 times not once or twice at the end of the video. is it through out whole year or the same month November? what is the calendar of your OA application? Many thanks
What's the time they are most likely to be broodless? I was thinking of doing treatments close together then (2 or 3 consecutive days if they're warm enough). I have a plan I call "treating to become treatment free". I think typical treatments will be thymol in summer, amitraz in fall, OAV right before and after the other treatments and in winter. I'll breed from resistant queens that I buy, and test each hive at least once a year.
The most likely time for broodless colonies in our area is early December. Breeding for resistance with colonies showing lower numbers than the rest of the yard is legit as long as there is at least a little pressure from mites. In other words not so much treatment that there are very few mights.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thanks. I did OAV on 12/5, and plan to do it on 12/21 and 12/22 with 40-43 F highs. For now, I will treat all colonies. In 3 years, I think queens will be good enough to skip the fall treatment. For breeding, I will graft from resistant queens I buy. I'll test all hives before the summer treatment, and the winners in fall.
Great video Bob! I see you said 3 grams per box. I have a Larob bees vaporizer and the caps only hold 3 grams so I should be doing two treatments back-to-back to get 6 grams in my double deep colonies correct?
I treated with Bovitraz 2 months ago. One week ago I treated with the oxalic acid, using the fogger. My question is, some of my very strong hives had maybe 200/300 mites on the bottom boards. These are very strong hives. Maybe 50/60 thousand bees. Could this be a problem? I should say that after treating with Bovatriz , I did several mite check’s using the dawn wash. My average mite count per 300 bees were 0 to 3 mites. What’s your thoughts on my mite level from treatment of the whole hive and finding 2/3 hundred mites on the bottom boards? Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
You don’t do dribble in winter. Most people who do it pull off honey supers then do the dribble at the same time. Use a weed sprayer or a gallon jug with a small hole in the lid.
Beeks here in NE IN do it in winter when broodless. Even when it is 35 degrees. The moisture doesn't seem to bother the bees. Reminds me of a saying I heard from a long time beek, wet bees are not dead bees but dead bees are wet.
Dribble is effective because it's used when colonies are broodless and bees are clustered. Too much and they ingest it. Take care to follow guidelines for formulation and application. A big syringe sounds like a PIA but it's actually fast and accurate. I am faster with dribble than vapor with less danger to my lungs. I recommend everyone who hasn't used it keep an open mind.
Thanks again Bob for sharing. I have already completed 1st in NE TN on Dec 1st at 2g/Deep Box and had planned to only do two like last year. Last year performed at 1g/Deep Box and 2X and had very low mite count in August; still treated with Apiguard out of an abundance of caution. But with 2022 findings/debate and ongoing studies for Oxalic Acid I upped to 2g/Deep Box this year, just curious which targets in grams (Single/Double/Nuc) you have decided on this year for your 3X treatment plan? Are targets and number of repeats the same for your Breeder Queen Colonies as Bee/Honey Production Colonies? And, do you treat a Nuc over double screen board the same as two independent colonies or allow for some if any upward carryover to Nuc? Thanks in advance! :)
We will be using 3 grams per deep box. My understanding, which comes from listening researchers, is that beyond 3 grams is the point at which we see diminishing returns or affects. Our breeders will only be getting one treatment and any nucs or colonies over a double screen board will be treated as an individual box.
Mr. Binnie, unless I missed here, can you touch on your interval between the 2 or 3X early winter/late fall oxalic acid vapor treatment? I went back and watched Part 3 of the Greg Rogers video series and I did not see it there either. Seems like you mentioned it in another, but dont see it in my notes.
The main thing is to do it when they are broodless which can vary from location to location and year to year. Last year our bees went broodless in November but started up again in December because it was unusually warm. This year it looks like December is going to work good. In many areas colonies will start laying again just after Christmas, especially if they are Italians.
When you vap the oxalic acid throug the entrance sometimes I see that a lot of propolis could interfere that this oxalic vap reaches the majority of bees. Could you recomend to clean propolis entrance before apply oxalic vap?
Hi Bob, have a question if a queen decides to swarm and the bees make a lot of swarm cells before they swarm if I move the old queen and leave the colony queenless do the bees make more queen cells, or do they just feed the existing swarm cells?
Kush... As Bob states. And / Also.. You could remove (cut out and Relocate or Mash Cells)... "IF you have another great Hive Colony ! AND breed some Good Quality Queen Cells of that instead. A Win, win. By taking a Frame of their Eggs, and or Graft. 👍 You get good Queen (Genetics) over the Swarm Cells the Original Hive 'made'. You have options. Rembering that you need to have Drones* : to Mate those Virgin Queens ! 😎 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 Happy Beekeeping 2022. 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 You don't say where your are or Time of Swarm 'process'. If it's a late Season one... their are less Drones, or many good quality Drones to do the deed. To that of late Spring or mid Summer... Just saying. 🙄
@@ME_MeAndMyBees I asked Bob to be ready for spring because I have to replace some old queens. So I'm thinking to remove the old queens and put 2 swarm closed cells per hive so I don't lose to much time and hope to have good queens.
I am a new beekeeper with one hive. I don't have an oxalic vaporization tool yet. Is there anything else I can do at this time of the year to treat for mites in the Chattanooga, TN area? I used Apiguard in September...I know that was a little late. I'm still learning...
The dribble method is an option as long as you only do it one time and the equipment needed is less than vaporization. You may actually have the tools necessary already. I would recommend looking at Randy Oliver's web site for more details. scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-dribble-tips/
@@mindylabean8363 Re x1 Hive ! You dont need the Volume of OA that many suggest .... Often the quantity makes a Litre ! That can do dozens of Hives. Tip : 1) Mist your Bees with a 1:1 Syrup, even add a bit of Hive Alive (Nutrition Boost Tonic.) 2) Then do your OA Trickle (Dribble Stateside !) Recipe : Work out how many Seams of Bees your Hive might have. (Is it a Langstroth, a Nuc, or another type ?) Then do reverse Maths... See below. **🙃 Each Seam needs a "Trickle of x5ml** of OA Solution", trickled via a large Syringe... (My Vets give me free x 60ml Volume ones... when Dog gets a Check Up.) Or Amazon some... Human 5ml Medicine ones work too.... But you need to Draw up Repeatedly, when Bee Gloves on, is a hassel ! 😵💫 You need : Oxalic Acid Crystal's/Powder. Get 'Wood Bleach, or OA from Pool Suppliers, OA is more Expensive off Bee Stores ! 🤔 Some White Sugar, and some Warm Water. And a Container NOT for Food Prep, or Storage. You need : 7.5 Grams per x100ml of Warm Water, shake together to Dissolve. Then add x100g Grams of White Sugar. Shake up again. Cool, use immediately (or on the Day made.) Any left over pour away, do not use later ! Hope this helps. 😎 ** This makes x200ml when made up. You eg on a Hive of Langstroth have x10 Frames, but x9 Seams of Bees (Spaces between Frames is a Seam !) In Winter here in Dec here in Scotland 🏴, a x10 Frame Box might only have eg x5, or x6 Seams of 'Winter Bees of Physiology' so make OA Solution, and Dose at 5ml per Seam...Trickle Solution up and down the Seam, so Bees all get a little bit on their Backs. Do slowly but steadily. 👍 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 Happy Beekeeping 2022. 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 I like OA Trickle. It's easy, doable on a small Scale (eg Hobby Beekeeper.) Vap or Sublimation needs to Kit, Goggles, a Respiration Mask. Yikes !!! 🥴
Hey Bob! One of my question is pending. I hope you could help me solving this riddle. I got some colony deaths and significant colony absconding despite significant richness in food resources. I could not figure out why exactly! The colony deaths were found Just after oxalic acid vaporization treatment. The colonies were treated with fluvalinate by the Beekeeper with whom I had purchased the bees to begin with just about a month earlier. Did it cause poisoning due to synergistic effects of drugs ? Also, about a month and half of these deaths, i was hit with significant colony absconding for no apparent reason! Was that a continuation of those synergistic effects? If so, why such delay in absconding? I have decided to replace all old frames with new ones asap, but till that happens, i have stopped all treatments! Kindly guide me here with your experience! Regards 🙏
Tau- fluvalinate is well know for having bad synergistic interactions with many other compounds and oxalic acid is one of them. The problem is that fluvalinate is absorbed by beeswax, builds up with repeated applications, and persists in comb for a very long time. It's possible that this is your problem.
@@charlesoneill466 "Apistan" strips, which at one time was the mite treatment of choice in the US. It is still available in some catalogs but in my opinion it should be removed for the reasons listed above. It can also be found in "Maverick" which was once commonly used as an off label treatment for mites.
Across western Canada those extended OA application methods have worked very well. Your experience is different.
Why do you think ?
I'm honestly don't know. There seems to be a lot of speculation but no good answers. I'm not the only one that has experienced problems. With some beekeepers it seems to be more of a maintenance treatment than a curative treatment. Some report that if you start with low counts it helps keep them low but if you start with high numbers it doesn't seem to bring them down. You may have seen my video that shows UGA and Auburn University doing research on Aluen Cap (Argentina version) with my bees and others in Alabama and Maryland that shows much the same results. I listened to Randy on a Zoom meeting in the Northeast tell beekeepers that the research done on Extended OA in Georgia a while back may have been done wrong in order to get such negative results but it was my bees and I can report that I was surprised at how precise the UGA crew followed the procedures and even so, I still ended up losing most of the colonies treated with it going into winter. The ones that survived did so because we followed up immediately with Apivar. The UGA crew was willing to let me intervene early when it became clear that things weren't going well, and I would probably lose a lot of colonies, but I told them to let it run it's course to make sure their data wasn't compromised. It seemed like they were hesitant to publish the negative results for a long time but I heard that it may have come out recently (I haven't seen it yet).
I have a friend that currently runs 4500 colonies that followed Randy's procedures to a T and ended up loosing nearly half of his colonies because he assumed it was working when he put it on in September up north and didn't check back until late October after they had all been moved back to Florida. By then the rapidly expanding damage was obvious and he immediately began treating with something else to save them. He now admits that he should have been paying closer attention but he waited because he was very busy and thought it should be working because of everything he had read. All that having been said I do have several friends that are sideline beekeepers that keep it on continually and report good results most of the time. Because of their reports, and because it now seems to be OK to keep OA on during a nectar flow, I may need to take another close look at this.
I don’t trust it, nope nope nope. The worst thing about this all is the uncertainty of its efficacy. This is not acceptable. Where is that panic button !
I wonder what continuous treatment of that OAE will ultimately do to the hive, or the mites ability to tolerate it.
Have they determined the mechanism it kills mites yet?
Ian, do you have video about y I ur OAE method formula?
Oh no, I have not used that method yet. Hope it’s registered this coming season
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog I've heard lots of theories about how it works but nothing definitive.
Couldn't help but notice the Grainger and McMaster Carr catalogs on your bookshelf. Always good to see fellow beekeepers that know which end of a screwdriver is the handle!
this was good but what happened it was 2 short, I am doing a treatment today high 47-48, keep the videos coming I enjoy every one of them. thank u for giving us your knowledge to help us keep our bees alive. Have a blessed day the 8 frame lids I got from u are the best I have ever bought u sell excellent bee equipment.
Thanks Frances
I do the same thing Bob. I use Apiguard in the summer after I pull supers and then hit the bees with OAV 3-4 times as we go into the winter. (I also try to post a video once a week on a Sunday haha) I find this really reduces the mites down to such a low level that spring treatment isn’t necessary and the bees can focus on the flow. Interesting about the dribble harming the exoskeleton. Did not know that. Good info!
This is the same treatment I use. I am going to try varroxsan this year during the winter.
I used this year Apivar, I have not used OA yet, Thanks for sharing God bless
I've never used the dribble method, but heard it works great. Thanks Bob, Happy holidays, good health to you and your family. God bless
Bob, your the man. Your videos are awesome and very informative. I have been following you for 2 yrs and you are my go to guy on the internet. Even if I know the information I’m tuning in. Thank you.
49F and sunny here today 12/4 in Eastern Pa, bees were flying so i felt good about a late-season OA vapor hit! Had about a dozen bees in each hive make their way out past the rag white as a ghost so hopefully, knocked em back good!
I do only dribble and I do it once. Dribble method maybe harmful to bees, but vaporizing is harmful to beekeeper. Good luck, and happy beekeeping to all!!!
I've found using a single dose of OA dribble with a modified BBOA technique to be very effective. Your brood break OA video discussion with Berry and Bartlett is one of my favorites. Thank you Bob for sharing ☺️
I've used single application OA dribble in late fall (mid Nov-mid Dec) for 4 years now. I see no Ill effects by following dosage closely. Come out in spring with mite counts of mostly 0 with an occasional 1. Just one application though. It's a maintenance/cleanup application not a reduction strategy. That I do in August with formic.
@@bradsmith3303 Assume you have a good brood break during that time. My climate is mild so my bees don't stop rearing brood.
Hello Bob. Great video. I'm waiting this morning for the temperature to rise up enough. To do my first round of oxalic acid treatments
Thanks for your videos, Bob, and all your knowledge. I'm getting all set up to do the oxalic acid.
Thank you Bob!
3 is the number.
I’m a fan of the dribble method. I use it in December each year when broodless. No vapor during the year. I use Apivar or Apiguard late summer.
Southern Ontario here. I have had poor success driving down high mite counts with OAV in August and agree 100% with your comments on treating with OAV when capped brood is present. I'd like to read a study on damage to exoskeleton caused by dribble, If there is one please supply a reference if you can. Living where winter means snow from December until April/May (most years) I can identify a very extended period when colonies are broodless and ALL the mites are phoretic. An OA dribble in October/November when broodless and when bees are clustered can be invaluable. I doubt it would work nearly as well if bees are not clustered and probably be ineffective if brood is present. Yes, dribble is hard on the bees that ingest it and applying too much (or too frequently) will poison the colony as will a batch mixed too strong. There are very clearly defined formulations for dribble. The best beekeeping practises vary widely across different climate zones. Your videos travel instantly across all of them. I appreciate your knowledge and experience and especially your willingness to share.
My comments on the slight affects of the dribble method on the exoskeleton were based on comments and discussions I had with a couple of researchers I know. Neither one of them have any studies published on the subject but said it was just an observation. They both said it takes more than one application to have a great enough affect to show up as a problem. Thank you.
Great channel. Love your store. Good cabinet guy.
Thanks. Cabinet guy?
@@bobbinnie9872 builds your super
Have order junk wouldn't go together correctly. You wood product have always worked
This year I do it like this.
Spring 1st hive opening Apidez
Honey flow 2 exteactions
3 x treatment bisanar
Sunflower honey extraction
1 x ekopol
......
They claim that it is enough but I will check with oxalic acid vaporization
Read some place, perhaps Randy, that if you use glycerin + OA for dribble rather than sucrose, the bees do not ingest it and it is less hard on them.
Thanks, Bob! Great to see you again!
👍
Bob, thank you for addressing this subject. I have been following Randy Oliver who uses the dribble method and considered using it this year. I appreciate your info and I am evaluating which method I will ultimately do. Guess I need to decide quickly.
Hi Al. Dribble works. You just have to be mindful of what can happen with repeated applications.
One of the questions we all have to ask is, How are everyone's reports with this stuff when it comes to queen issues. I know we've seen MASSIVE queen sterilization from apistan, where we were switching out HUNDREDS of queens after a single low-dose of the stuff. And Formic slabs can outright just make a queen not very viable after the fact. I also see apiguard shock a yard of palleted hives, even at 25gram dosing. where it does toast the brood nest entirely out and then you lose that last bit of momentum you needed before winter. Especially in our area where it goes from WARM to freezing with no "in-between".
I can only report my own casual observation which is that vaporization has very little issues with queens. That would be a good research project for someone which may have already been done.
@@bobbinnie9872 Good to know! I think I will try it out next season and see how this does compared to my current routine.
Thanks Bob could u give some advice on switching from small honey sales retail to bulk honey sales wholesale and the requirements needed to sale to big packers? Luv your videos buddy please keep them coming.
Thanks for the info Bob.
Thanks for the videos. I enjoy them and the comments.
Thanks, I agree about the comments. When I started making videos I realized how much can be gained by reading comments and answers and now I find myself doing it often on other videos.
thank you
Great information 👍 thanks again what is the time between the treatments and when will you do the last one ?
Depending on what the weather lets us do we'll try for 7 to 10 days apart. We're hoping to start any day now (it's raining right now) and if we are able to do what we want we'll be done within 20 days.
Thanks for the good info.
Thanks Bob!!
I love your videos
Thanks for sharing
Good Morning Bob !
And a very good morning to you. 👍
The key is to make em fill up on syrup so ingestion is minimal..I spray em and make them clean it up and come back and dribble..my dribble is a $1 pump spray bottle, 4 sprays per seam is same math as dribble..very easy on the bees doing it this way compared to empty stomachs ,I know it supposed to hurt the exoskeleton but honestly not as bad as varroa drops a nice cluster..just my opinion from my experiences with it.Vape is nearly impossible to hurt bees unless their outta balance already though..as always good information !
Good tip, thank you.
Hi Bob, Thanks again for sharing your time and bee keeping skills. For those who may use candy/sugar boards, have you heard/experienced if residual OA on the surface of the candy board from OAV causes any ingestion issues?
I've not heard of anyone addressing that but it's a good question. I would guess (and it is just a guess) that the danger is much less with a candy board because with the liquid dribble method the bees are literally being invited to ingest it immediately and completely in what may end up being a higher concentration.
As someome who has used OA dribble for more than multiple decades the real research question I currently have been unable to source a clesr answer for is as to whether OA dribble fabricated with glycerin is; 1. More, less, or equally effective; 2 More, less or equally hard on the bees than that which is made up with sucrose.
??
Did a few tests myself but the data to gsrner a fully complete and acurrste answer requires a lot of dilignce and a large sample size than weve put in .
Mabye next year.
Please let us know what you find.
Randy Oliver likes the glycerin better, he has a bunch of research behind it. Am still using sugar water myself and like the results I am getting, despite being never broodless. (mid-Florida)
Dibble with the glycerin recipe is used alot in Italy. And using an uncapping fork to remove around 500 brood cells, to make them broodless is winter common practice too. Fork + dribble is much better than hope + dribble
@@researcherAmateur At what consentration?Randy olivers recipe?
Dribble now for three years - haven't had a count over 1% for 2 . . .
Bob, can you do a demo video of how you do the OA vapor treatment. Thanks
Hi JR. Check out these thre videos. ua-cam.com/video/ACqrvbNJC7w/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/nfbIZ9XMPOg/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/k3ZBC-BXAp4/v-deo.html
@BobBinnie you have mentioned that OA dribble shouldn't be used more than once per year, it was also mentioned by Jennifer Berry in one of your previous videos. My question is: do you mean only once per year in winter (treatment for overwintering bees) or in general (including the summer bees)? Can you please elaborate more on this?
Thank you for your great videos!
Greetings from Macedonia.
The main problem with dribble is that it is a bit hard on the bees therefore, in my opinion, it shouldn't be used twice until the colony population has replaced itself. Winter or summer.
Hi Bob,
I was rewatching some videos trying to get the latest information on your late year OA treatment procedure. On May 30, 2021 you released a video entitled "Varroa Mite Treatment Results" where you stated you treat 3 times in late Nov/ early Dec using 2 grams of OA sublimation per deep box. In this video you say you'll be using 3 grams per deep box. I believe in another video you stated possibly using 4 grams per deep box. Can you tell me what your late Nov/ early Dec OA treatment procedure is in dose and interval please? I understand that temperature is important and expect we'll get a few more days between 42-48 degrees Fahrenheit in SE New Hampshire. Thank you.
Our plans this year are to treat two times approximately two weeks apart with 3 to 4 grams per box once the colonies are broodless. Recent research is showing that 3 grams does a good job with 4 being slightly better.
@@bobbinnie9872. After your response last month I watched a video called "Control Varroa in your honey bee colonies by Dr. Cameron Jack" where Dr. Jack discusses various OA dosages and the effects on his test colonies. Since Nov 17 I have treated 7 times with 4g / deep using both the ProVap (treatments 1 & 2) and the InstantVap (treatments 3-7). My colonies (I have six) are very healthy, in very good tightly sealed wooden-ware and were very productive this season.
Since I am a hobbyist, and since we've been experiencing a shift in weather patterns in the northeast (I live in zone 6a, formerly zone 5b), I can plan treatments on those days when the weather is optimal (sunny and above 40 degrees). I see absolutely no ill effect on my colonies due to the OA. After treatment #1 I saw approximately 150 dead mites in one colony (Italian genetics from the southeast), maybe 100 in a second colony (same genetics) and minor drops (between 30-50) in four other colonies that have new queens from this Jun 2023. These new queens came from Troy Hall who has a queen breeding program in Plainfield, NH. I believe they are a Caucasian Carniolan mix.
When counting the numbers from treatments #3 to #6, the numbers overall are very low, but they do jump due to emerging brood. For instance treatment #5 on Dec 9 gave me 0, 6, 0, 2, 6, 3 mites. Treatment #6 on Dec 15 gave me 2, 12, 1, 5, 5, 15. My last treatment (#7) was Dec 20. I'll be counting later today.
As to the Pro and Instant Vaps, you are right that a large operation like yours would not benefit from the Instant Vap due to the cost of the batteries. You would need to invested batteries with double the amp hours. I have two DeWalt XR batteries (mfg dates 2017 & 2018 respectively), both 20V 5Ah and I need both to heat and treat all 6 of my colonies with the InstantVap. The InstantVap does work better. I need to set the heat higher for the amount of OA I'm using, so just ordered a DeWalt Flexvolt 20V/60V Max at 9Ah on Amazon for $139.
Thank you Bob.
What do you think about the following:.
Giving the queen a brood break on a queen excluder frame and then treating with oxalic acid? How effective would that be for mite treatment? How long does the brood break need to be? What time of the year is best for Chattanooga area?
That does work if done properly and now would be the time to do it. You would release the queen back to the rest of the colony a few days before all sealed brood disappears in the frames she's isolated from, throw away the frame she has been isolated on and then treat.
Hi Bob, I am new in beekeeping from Belgium with two hives since May, you said you apply 3 times not once or twice at the end of the video. is it through out whole year or the same month November? what is the calendar of your OA application? Many thanks
We do this during the broodless period in winter. In our area this can be late November through mid December.
What's the time they are most likely to be broodless? I was thinking of doing treatments close together then (2 or 3 consecutive days if they're warm enough). I have a plan I call "treating to become treatment free". I think typical treatments will be thymol in summer, amitraz in fall, OAV right before and after the other treatments and in winter. I'll breed from resistant queens that I buy, and test each hive at least once a year.
The most likely time for broodless colonies in our area is early December. Breeding for resistance with colonies showing lower numbers than the rest of the yard is legit as long as there is at least a little pressure from mites. In other words not so much treatment that there are very few mights.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thanks. I did OAV on 12/5, and plan to do it on 12/21 and 12/22 with 40-43 F highs. For now, I will treat all colonies. In 3 years, I think queens will be good enough to skip the fall treatment. For breeding, I will graft from resistant queens I buy. I'll test all hives before the summer treatment, and the winners in fall.
Great video Bob! I see you said 3 grams per box. I have a Larob bees vaporizer and the caps only hold 3 grams so I should be doing two treatments back-to-back to get 6 grams in my double deep colonies correct?
That sounds correct. Perhaps Larob has a bigger cap available?
Is oxalic acid dihydrate another name for oxalic acid
Are they the same?
I treated with Bovitraz 2 months ago. One week ago I treated with the oxalic acid, using the fogger. My question is, some of my very strong hives had maybe 200/300 mites on the bottom boards. These are very strong hives. Maybe 50/60 thousand bees. Could this be a problem? I should say that after treating with Bovatriz , I did several mite check’s using the dawn wash. My average mite count per 300 bees were 0 to 3 mites. What’s your thoughts on my mite level from treatment of the whole hive and finding 2/3 hundred mites on the bottom boards? Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
I never understand the desire to drip liquid all over bees in winter. OAV
You don’t do dribble in winter. Most people who do it pull off honey supers then do the dribble at the same time. Use a weed sprayer or a gallon jug with a small hole in the lid.
Beeks here in NE IN do it in winter when broodless. Even when it is 35 degrees. The moisture doesn't seem to bother the bees. Reminds me of a saying I heard from a long time beek, wet bees are not dead bees but dead bees are wet.
Dribble is effective because it's used when colonies are broodless and bees are clustered. Too much and they ingest it. Take care to follow guidelines for formulation and application. A big syringe sounds like a PIA but it's actually fast and accurate. I am faster with dribble than vapor with less danger to my lungs. I recommend everyone who hasn't used it keep an open mind.
@@fshrgy99 I did vapor today. It is a pain in the face mask…
@@3Beehivesto300 lol.... A pain in the massk :)
Thanks again Bob for sharing. I have already completed 1st in NE TN on Dec 1st at 2g/Deep Box and had planned to only do two like last year. Last year performed at 1g/Deep Box and 2X and had very low mite count in August; still treated with Apiguard out of an abundance of caution. But with 2022 findings/debate and ongoing studies for Oxalic Acid I upped to 2g/Deep Box this year, just curious which targets in grams (Single/Double/Nuc) you have decided on this year for your 3X treatment plan? Are targets and number of repeats the same for your Breeder Queen Colonies as Bee/Honey Production Colonies? And, do you treat a Nuc over double screen board the same as two independent colonies or allow for some if any upward carryover to Nuc? Thanks in advance! :)
We will be using 3 grams per deep box. My understanding, which comes from listening researchers, is that beyond 3 grams is the point at which we see diminishing returns or affects. Our breeders will only be getting one treatment and any nucs or colonies over a double screen board will be treated as an individual box.
Mr. Binnie, unless I missed here, can you touch on your interval between the 2 or 3X early winter/late fall oxalic acid vapor treatment? I went back and watched Part 3 of the Greg Rogers video series and I did not see it there either. Seems like you mentioned it in another, but dont see it in my notes.
We like to do it 7 to 10 days apart.
I do it once in November, once December, once January. Give or take a week or two or three…
Bob, maybe I missed it, but when do you do your OAV treatment in the winter. I've heard mid to late December and in to January.
The main thing is to do it when they are broodless which can vary from location to location and year to year. Last year our bees went broodless in November but started up again in December because it was unusually warm. This year it looks like December is going to work good. In many areas colonies will start laying again just after Christmas, especially if they are Italians.
I wanted to add a pollen patty for the winter. Is there a best time in relation to OA treatments?
I think it's safe anytime.
Bob,
If you use oxalic vaporization cid on a hive, and it dies over the winter, would it be OK to spin out remaining honey for personal use?
My opinion is yes.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thank you.
When you vap the oxalic acid throug the entrance sometimes I see that a lot of propolis could interfere that this oxalic vap reaches the majority of bees. Could you recomend to clean propolis entrance before apply oxalic vap?
If you have an entrance blocked by propolis it could necessary.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thanks Bob!!. I'm from Barcelona. 👍
Hi Bob, have a question if a queen decides to swarm and the bees make a lot of swarm cells before they swarm if I move the old queen and leave the colony queenless do the bees make more queen cells, or do they just feed the existing swarm cells?
I believe they go with cells already started.
@@bobbinnie9872 thank you for helping to understand the bee world 🍻
Kush...
As Bob states. And / Also..
You could remove (cut out and Relocate or Mash Cells)... "IF you have another great Hive Colony ! AND breed some Good Quality Queen Cells of that instead. A Win, win.
By taking a Frame of their Eggs, and or Graft. 👍
You get good Queen (Genetics) over the Swarm Cells the Original Hive 'made'. You have options.
Rembering that you need to have Drones* : to Mate those Virgin Queens ! 😎
🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝
Happy Beekeeping 2022.
🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝
You don't say where your are or Time of Swarm 'process'.
If it's a late Season one... their are less Drones, or many good quality Drones to do the deed.
To that of late Spring or mid Summer... Just saying. 🙄
@@ME_MeAndMyBees I asked Bob to be ready for spring because I have to replace some old queens. So I'm thinking to remove the old queens and put 2 swarm closed cells per hive so I don't lose to much time and hope to have good queens.
How many grams of oxalic acid do you use by vaporization?
2.5 to 3 per deep box.
I am a new beekeeper with one hive. I don't have an oxalic vaporization tool yet. Is there anything else I can do at this time of the year to treat for mites in the Chattanooga, TN area? I used Apiguard in September...I know that was a little late. I'm still learning...
The dribble method is an option as long as you only do it one time and the equipment needed is less than vaporization. You may actually have the tools necessary already. I would recommend looking at Randy Oliver's web site for more details. scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-dribble-tips/
@@bobbinnie9872 Thank you! I will use the dribble method this one time. I just got a little concerned when you mentioned it could harm the bees.
@@mindylabean8363 Re x1 Hive ! You dont need the Volume of OA that many suggest .... Often the quantity makes a Litre ! That can do dozens of Hives.
Tip :
1) Mist your Bees with a 1:1 Syrup, even add a bit of Hive Alive (Nutrition Boost Tonic.)
2) Then do your OA Trickle (Dribble Stateside !)
Recipe : Work out how many Seams of Bees your Hive might have. (Is it a Langstroth, a Nuc, or another type ?)
Then do reverse Maths... See below. **🙃
Each Seam needs a "Trickle of x5ml** of OA Solution", trickled via a large Syringe... (My Vets give me free x 60ml Volume ones... when Dog gets a Check Up.) Or Amazon some...
Human 5ml Medicine ones work too.... But you need to Draw up Repeatedly, when Bee Gloves on, is a hassel ! 😵💫
You need :
Oxalic Acid Crystal's/Powder. Get 'Wood Bleach, or OA from Pool Suppliers, OA is more Expensive off Bee Stores ! 🤔
Some White Sugar, and some Warm Water. And a Container NOT for Food Prep, or Storage.
You need : 7.5 Grams per x100ml of Warm Water, shake together to Dissolve. Then add x100g Grams of White Sugar. Shake up again. Cool, use immediately (or on the Day made.) Any left over pour away, do not use later !
Hope this helps. 😎
** This makes x200ml when made up. You eg on a Hive of Langstroth have x10 Frames, but x9 Seams of Bees (Spaces between Frames is a Seam !)
In Winter here in Dec here in Scotland 🏴, a x10 Frame Box might only have eg x5, or x6 Seams of 'Winter Bees of Physiology' so make OA Solution, and Dose at 5ml per Seam...Trickle Solution up and down the Seam, so Bees all get a little bit on their Backs. Do slowly but steadily. 👍
🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝
Happy Beekeeping 2022.
🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝
I like OA Trickle. It's easy, doable on a small Scale (eg Hobby Beekeeper.) Vap or Sublimation needs to Kit, Goggles, a Respiration Mask. Yikes !!! 🥴
👏👏👏👏👏
Sorry if I missed it… 3 grams per box? How many days apart for treatments?
3 grams per box, 7 to 10 days apart.
🤗👍✌💝
👍
How many days between each of your three vaporization treatments?
We try for 7 to 10.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thank you
Hey Bob! One of my question is pending. I hope you could help me solving this riddle. I got some colony deaths and significant colony absconding despite significant richness in food resources. I could not figure out why exactly! The colony deaths were found Just after oxalic acid vaporization treatment. The colonies were treated with fluvalinate by the Beekeeper with whom I had purchased the bees to begin with just about a month earlier. Did it cause poisoning due to synergistic effects of drugs ? Also, about a month and half of these deaths, i was hit with significant colony absconding for no apparent reason! Was that a continuation of those synergistic effects? If so, why such delay in absconding? I have decided to replace all old frames with new ones asap, but till that happens, i have stopped all treatments! Kindly guide me here with your experience! Regards 🙏
Tau- fluvalinate is well know for having bad synergistic interactions with many other compounds and oxalic acid is one of them. The problem is that fluvalinate is absorbed by beeswax, builds up with repeated applications, and persists in comb for a very long time. It's possible that this is your problem.
What product is Tau flauvinate found in?
@@charlesoneill466 apistan
@@charlesoneill466 "Apistan" strips, which at one time was the mite treatment of choice in the US. It is still available in some catalogs but in my opinion it should be removed for the reasons listed above. It can also be found in "Maverick" which was once commonly used as an off label treatment for mites.
thank you
Thank you