Mystra can’t go an era without getting slain by another god it seems. She’s on her third or fourth, if you include Mystrl, incarnation and people still want to stab her.
She knows people will get mad if she just changes how magic works all at once just whenever, she instead uses the excuse of her "death" for a brand new security update on the weave, for "everyone's" benefit and safety of course :v)
To be fair to 5th editions lack of domains, they use them in a different way (mechanically) then earlier editions of the game. With the Subclass systems in place through 5e it makes sense for the gods to be condensed into their prime attributes so that their domain fits into a subclass the cleric wants to choose. Earlier editions had your god grant you additional weapons that you could use and informed the type of spells you could prepare while 5e has your god grant you a domain filled with abilities and domain spells for you to use.
@@bitharne100% It also allows to have clerics that don't follow a god but instead more than one or something like a shaman being an intermediary with the spiritual world
In the novels, there's a hint that Ao might report to someone even further behind. Not sure if that ever got expounded or remains a sneaky little hint that there might be someone even higher
@@bluebird3281well, yes and no. If they truly were we would either have all the books with all the lore so we don’t need to make shot up or no books and the dm has to write everything themselves.
I can barely imagine how much you have to search through years of content and books to gather this information and put it all together and do this amazing work, congratulations and thank you for another very interesting video. shout out from brazil
Hey no requests nor demands, but a solemn statement of: Ive watched your channel for over three years now, and Esper you truly are a grand teller of tales. Carry on.
13:28 I never expected to see one of my minis I shared on Reddit show up in a video. I am honoured XD Speaking of wich, I really should update and improve that mini
"With enemies, you know where they stand. But Neutrals? Who knows?" "What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
Gilean is one of the most neutral from dragonlance. I always thought the dispassionate observation and documentation of history was one of the most neutral things possible.
I think I’m gonna take an existing character from my setting who’s nature is completely ambiguous but the party _knows_ there’s something more to him & give him a Silvanus makeover. I intentionally hadn’t decided what he was yet, and I like this
Fangorn was neutral, but the D&D alignment system doesn’t fit in Tolkien. Hobbits (other than the Fellowship ones and bilbo) could be considered neutral in the same way, Neutral like regular people: mostly minding their own business and maybe even looking the other way when bad things happen to others, but capable of doing good or evil But yeah definitely not “True Neutral”. Honestly I’d call Illuvatar true neutral in a way close to the D&D meaning, tho Tolkien, having been spoiled by being convinced to be Christian, wouldnt see it that way. He somehow thought the Christian god wasn’t evil, for instance 🙄
Have you looked at how the deities are presented in "Explorer's Guide To Wildemount"? I know most, if not all, of them are versions of deities from the Forgotten Realms, but how they're presented in the book is interesting and I think they're different enough to be thought of as a separate pantheon that happens to have similarities.
Why not cover the Lady of Pain? Even though she is not technically a god (even punishes those who attempt to worship her as this could eventually turn her into a true god, which she apparently doesn't want), she is still divine somehow and Sigil is effectively her godly domain. She seems to be the epitome of True Neutrality along with an expression of what pain and suffering is caused by the clash of all the alignments across the planes. According to her origin story, she was daughter of another god, but didn't want to be a god so took a dip in the River Styx to forget her divinity. So she really does have divine origins.
About the wakeen thing in the end i think the whole thing about the gold becoming less and less valuable i think it's a show of her power even if she devalues gold she has so much and gains power from any commerce that she will quickly amass money once more and can be safely as extravagant as she wants
Definitely going to be using some of these deities in my setting! There’s so many gods in the forgotten realms it nice to have somebody sit down and talk about a few of them in this context. I would LOVE for you to do one of these for the most Chaotic Deity next!
I started with the blue boxed set in 1980. The changes up to 3.5 were mostly building off of older editions changing somethings, strengthening others and adding or changing lore. I don't know what the heck happened in 4th edition. To me it's the one edition I avoid except for some monsters. 5th edition has nerfed a lot of stuff and in many ways lost its grit to softer builds and themes. This is the corporate hand stirring the pot. Weaken the game and making it more cartoonish to attract new customers. the best thing about D&D is it's your game. You can ignore, modify or create new rules to fit your game. You are in charge of how gritty or fluffy your setting is. When you think of the core rulebooks, think of them as guides rather than rigid law. I still like a lot of stuff from 1st edition.
I would love to hear commentary from the neutral gods during Karsus' Folly. Silvanus: No problem, vegetation will cover this mess in time. Oghma: That was a really dumb idea... never again! Kossuth: Oooh, falling sky cities. Look at all the flames! Gond: Repairs are going to take time after that accident. Waukeen: That's going to be expensive. Io: None of those cities better crash land on a dragon. Ao: Nice try kid, so close to godhood but still a yard short.
Remember one character I had that wasn't a cleric but was instead a clerk of bralm as he wasnt neutral enough to requisition additional abilities but could still act as a notary for the party and provide other services for convenience's sake. Had bralm portrayed as a more corporate style overlord who wanted her followers to adhere to insect like efficiency and always provide appropriate reports and receipts whenever possible. Was good fun.
I would of argued Mystra Mistryl as being a Neutral ACTUAL god than Karsus, which was only for a very brief moment Mystryl has to allow the magic to happen regardless of intentions
Will you cover the Eberron pantheon? It’s a unique pantheon from the multiverse, with Tiamat being the only recognizable name with a starkly different origin.
Amazing to find this video and your channel! I'm playing a Knowledge Cleric/Glamour Bard of Oghma in a long term campaign so far, but had no idea about some of these details. It works though, as my pc only recently connected with the real Oghma by sheer chance in a crazy event. (The world has a fake pantheon that's managing to hide our side of the world from the view of the real gods)
Most of these "true" neutral had strong tendencies chaotic or lawful. I wonder if Vesper read most of the Forgotten Realms books because true neutral is an ideal idea. Neutral Gods generally follow the good idea of self-preservation to fight evil from becoming the dominant force. Neutral or Good Gods generally don't try to become an overt dominant power.
Poor Karsus, imagine thinking that you had finally achieved your wildest dreams, the kind people tell you would absolutely never happen, and right as your moment of triumph has reached it's crescendo, you die.
All things considered stealing a gods power seems like a better move than selling your soul to three gods but hey if liches are your speed you can grind it out to demilichdom.. godhood isn’t for everyone!
Gond to me is the most respectable and admirable god, as I feel he embodies the most human qualities in humans: knowledge, creativity, curiosity and productivity. where there's gond, there's guaranteed to be an advanced civilization.
Currently 2am, very tired but can’t sleep so I’m listening lore videos to help… tell me why I read this title as Neutral Gods of the MCU and was THOROUGHLY confused when the audio started 😂
I think that a good "true neutral" god in real life is the hindu Vishnu. Yes, he is good in character, but he is concerned mostly with maintaining balance in the cosmos, he is the preserver after all. When an age of humanity becomes too orderly, he sends a chaotic avatar to make things freer, and when the world is too chaotic he sends a lawful avatar to bring order. Too bad he isn't in D&D.
Am I the one wrong about karsuses folly? Karsus successfully cast avatar. He became mistryl she only killed them selves because he wasn’t able to maintain the weave. Her killing herself didn’t destroy the weave, him becoming mystryll did. Her killing them and making mystra was what saved it. But it was too late. Netherill was destroyed. His plan was perfect if only he chose any god other than mystryl.
If you are a follower of Gond, you can't really use a weapon against anyone, because you always have to assume that they also worship Gond or being high skilled craftsman.
he did it to combat a threat that was threating netheril, but that doesn't make him nessary a good person. the laws of Netheril empire, and by exstention his city were flawed, as it was an magocracy With an class system that threated non-human and non mages as second class citizens He also was arrogant, believing that the gods were nothing more than people who had mastered magic that wasn't discovered yet and when he casts his spell that he wielded that same magic. Here's a quote about his personality: _"He acted like an excited child most of the time, and his tantrums were to be avoided at all cost. He could be warm and friendly or ruthless and tyrannical; there really wasn't anything in between."_
@@Crazor2000 Netheril was one of the most powerful polities in Faerun and they were being smashed the Phaerimm, who turned fertle land into desert that persists to this day I don't know for certain if the elves, Shou Lung or gods could have stopped them, but the war lasted decades and no one had intervened to resolve this apocalyptic crisis, which leads me surmise they were unable to help rather than unwilling to. So imo this is a world-ending crisis. Therefore if one god has to take an L and reincarnate to preserve the common good then so be it. And yes magocractic tyranny is bad, but being gobbled up or melted by slugs is worse. I'm sure he was an arrogant guy, most powerful people are. But it's clear he acted for the benefit of something larger than himself.
@@williamhenry8914 yes, but good intentions does not make a good person. actions do matter as much as intention. He spent over an decade developing a 12th level spell, so he could have made many things that could have helped win the war if he spent his efforts on other spells. why did he make the spell so he could get the power of a god? Part of it was because he wanted to stop the Phaerimm, but it was not the sole reason. His second reason was because he was wanted the powers of the gods, and believed this spell would make him an equal. a quote:_"greed for the power of the deities themselves caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people."_ It was not soly for just his people, it was also a goal to extend his own power into the realm of the deities. i wouldn't call him a bad guy, and his goal of getting rid of the phaerimm was noble, but i would hardly call him a good person. his actions were reckless, killed a lot of people (although unintentionally), and didn't care for the consequenses for the magic until it caught up with him. heck, he nearly crashed his city before his big spell when experimenting with heavy magic.
@@Crazor2000 Good intentions are the basis of what makes a good person, that shouldn't be controversial. Good people try to do good, and even if they fail they are not evil for trying to do good. There are further considerations but that's a baseline anyone can agree with. As for him being selfish, I'm sure you can find some people who thought he was. But why should we believe them? Powerful people always have critics, so how do we know they were not themselves simply jealous or misguided? Primary sources can be liars too, or just wrong. As for recklessness, it was indeed but there was a world-ending crisis going on. When your choices are take a reckless gamble and maybe survive or play it 'safe' and the Phaerimm destroy Faerun, then its time to be reckless. And it's great he was because the Phaerimm were defeated and Faerun survived.
@@williamhenry8914 the part was not from some random npc quote, it was the writers themself calling him selfish. you know the autors of the book that describe netheril. there is a difference between a character in story calling him selfish, in the book, and the people who designed him. I think that is kinda a reliable narrator, since it's people who made him. You have to keep in mind that the is a difference between a primairy source in an historical text, and the authors who made up the character in the book describing his actions as a guide on what he is like and what his background is. they are calling him childish, greedy for power of the gods and a tyrant. You talk about that his intentions were good, but good intentions can lead to horrible actions to justify it for "the greater good" or doing something that seems good in the moment but has horrible consequenses. it leads to a very, "The end justifies the means" way of doing things. sure having good intentions can make it feel less bad, but it doesn't justify always the action. In this case, his reckless attempt to grab at the powers of a god, got thousands of people killed and nearly destroyed the weave. i get giving people benefit of the doubt, but when does a good intention really justify the deaths that he unintentionally created? and you talk about how he was great because the Phaerimm were defeated and faerun suvived, but that was not thanks to him. in fact he made situation actually worse. the phearimm weren't defeated by him, in fact his volly basically ended the empire of netheril forever and killed everybody in the floating cities that crashed down thanks to his choice, and giving the Phaerimm freedom to focus on the next target, which was an dwarven empire they destroyed. all those deaths are because he messed up and lost the war. in fact the once that defeated the phaerimm was the Sharn, basically creatures that hate life draining magic, and the war between them resulted in the sharn sealing the Phaerimm later with what was called the "Sharn wall". I wouldn't describe him as evil, but he has done a lot of things that destroyed peoples life, killed them and let to widespread destruction due to his own recklessness
suggest looking at some pathfinder gods (sure not officially dnd but has some interesting gods and fairly similar setting) they have some pretty good ones like Cayden Cailean the drunken hero a popular chaotic good deity who was a mortal who became a god after a night of drinking and a bet Lamashtu the mother of monsters and a primary enemy of the demon lord Pazuzu (much like in their real life depictions) Desna cg godess of travelers and the stars Pharasma goddess of birth and death and fate also the main deity of death of the setting Shelyn the goddess of love and beauty and related things as well as her half brother zon kuthon god of pain and mutilation maybe compare some shared deities like both versions of asmodeus Nocticula the former queen of succubus but now a goddess of redemption and art Naderi the deity of forbidden and tragic romance the dragon gods apsu patron of good dragons like metallics as well as husband to tiamat and father to the patron deity of evil dragons dahak, or the lessor divine power categories like (also suggest looking into some of the unique or semi unique outsider types they are some fairly good ones that surpass some of their dnd equivalents by a good amount) asura rana's (as well as maybe talk about the asura themselves) some demon lords like pazuzu archdevils Empyreal lord which are exceptionally high ranking and powerful celestials of the 4 types angels (ng), archons (LG), azata (CG also similar to good fey and would say much better then their dnd equivalaent group) agathion (NG and bit more naturalistic then angels) velstrac/kyton demagogues (also kytons are much better then their dnd equivalents they aren't devils but their own type of fiend so more lore on them) also for dnd gods suggest covering vhaeraun one of my favorite of the dnd deities
I think this series would be improved if you clarified the videos in it are specifically for the Forgotten Realms in their titles, or removed that limitation and discussed D&D's deities as a whole. Either'd work really.
I've gone back and forth on the best way to do titles. Ended up settling on just "D&D" for more traction and easier for people to recognize what it is, then I put Forgotten Realms on the thumbnail. But I'm still in doubt. Maybe it could be "Who Is the Most Neutral God in D&D? (Forgotten Realms)" My worry there is the title is getting a little too long.
@@esperthebarddamned if you do and all that. For the casual audience these videos will be most attracting the Forgotten Realms and D&D are synonymous. Your announcement in the video, and perhaps the byline in the description is good enough. Nobody in 2023 is keeping up with Greyhawk for example.
Deities are always setting specific and don't have any overlap unless specifically noted. So covering D&D deities as a whole would still need to be divided up by settings.
IMO the lady of pain would be the most neutral as she doesn't want worship does little to interfere in the philosophical conundrums the factions embody. doesn't seem to can about anything but the city of doors and its subjects. she doesn't talk she just arrives and does what she does. she may be less or more than a god, nothing is said. also, another one would be primus. my list wouldn't have AO due to being too lawful or karsus for not really being a god. IMO Ao is the embodiment of law, the lady of pain neutrality and thurizdun of chaos.
You should read the Avatar series from the Forgotten Realms series if you haven't already. It's a trilogy followed by a duology, that features the gods as main characters, especially the last two, as well as showing mortals becoming gods. Starts off a bit weak, but gets much better and more relevant to deific lore as it goes on. One detail is that Mystra , goddess of magic, is able to see the pov of any other god (or believes she can at least) and thinks that all of them (bar herself, and she might be wrong) are monomaniacal and can't see outside of their portfolio, to the point she takes her high priest to an insane asylum and compares the gods to the inmates there. Oghma is a recurring character in those books and try as he might, while he can change the nature of his divine realm to however he likes, he can't imagine it as anything other than different kinds of infinite library.
You didn't mention one of the most interesting and contrary aspects of Gond, it's due to his will that The Forgotten Realms doesn't have (many) firearms. black powder exist but he wills it to be inert and nonexplosive. You have to use magical explosive powder if you want guns. Out of universe, makes sense, gives an explanation why guns are not around despite artificers making golems and other "high" tech things. In universe, maybe so he and those he favors can be more in control over weapon ideas/creation, not sure really.
I am surprised, no mention of the Lady of Pain? I am not sure if she is technically considered a god, but for that matter, Ao isn't technically a god either. What would you say about her neutrality?
15:23 In regards to Waukeen I find it pretty weird to make the godess of wealth and money true neutral. I can see how it makes sense that such a deity should be neutral on the good/evil axis as money can be used for good or ill. Although even this is debateable as you could make good points why money is evil. But it gets really weird on the chaotic/lawful axis. Money is always based on a contract which entails basically an entire society. Paper and digital money even more so, but even a currency that is based on valuable metals like gold kinda is. Gold has no inherent value. Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it automatically has value. Society just kinda agreed on gold being valuable and a sign of status. If people stopped doing that, gold-based currencies would become wortless. Coins have to be minted, given out and they come with regulations. Wealth thrives most in places with the rule of law because being an entrepeneur in a lawless land usually dosn't go very well as someone strong is likely to come along and take everything from you. More complicated forms of econmy (like the proto-capitalis mercantilism in the rich cities on the Sword Coast) produces far more wealth than simple ones. And the more advanced such economies and societies become, the more orderly and lawful they have to be to continue their function. If I were to design a deity of money and wealth, I would definetely make them lawful. Either lawful neutral or lawful evil.
22:42 Is Ao really the most neutral deity, though? He is clearly neutral on the good/evil axis, no argument there. But it seems to me like he is not totally neutral on the lawful/chaotic axis and prefers the former. It's quite telling that the only god he didn't send to Toril during the time of troubles was Helm, who is the embodiment of lawfulness. He got really angry because the tables of fate were stolen e.g. someone endagered the previous order. Ao is lawful neutral or at least he is true neutral with a tendency towards law.
Lol waukeens gold coin nunchunks sound hilarious Of course a god of trades tool of destruction is the best at destroying wealth Imagine challenging her a battle of commerce And she whips out the the coinchucks like [Behold, with each swing a million coins shall spread across the realms] And she proceeds to do her best bruce lee impression all the while all your money becomes worthless
Mystra can’t go an era without getting slain by another god it seems. She’s on her third or fourth, if you include Mystrl, incarnation and people still want to stab her.
I also found that peculiar. Not sure if it's an interesting quirk that she has a repeating tragedy, or if it's just declining storytelling quality.
She really should have reincarnation as a domain.
She knows people will get mad if she just changes how magic works all at once just whenever, she instead uses the excuse of her "death" for a brand new security update on the weave, for "everyone's" benefit and safety of course :v)
@@esperthebard might be a mix of both, as funny it is to me that Mystra has that horrible luck
Gods can take the domains of another god by killing them, and magic is a very coveted one.
Waukeen's weapon of choice is just the divine version of sticking a few rolls of quarters in a sock
Ah yes, Ao. Or as I like to call him, the DM
Nah Ao is Ed Greenwood
Sorry bud but the one that is above Ao is the DM
To be fair to 5th editions lack of domains, they use them in a different way (mechanically) then earlier editions of the game. With the Subclass systems in place through 5e it makes sense for the gods to be condensed into their prime attributes so that their domain fits into a subclass the cleric wants to choose. Earlier editions had your god grant you additional weapons that you could use and informed the type of spells you could prepare while 5e has your god grant you a domain filled with abilities and domain spells for you to use.
One thing 5e does right; but people fight it for some reason.
@@bitharne Agreed!
@@bitharne100%
It also allows to have clerics that don't follow a god but instead more than one or something like a shaman being an intermediary with the spiritual world
In the novels, there's a hint that Ao might report to someone even further behind. Not sure if that ever got expounded or remains a sneaky little hint that there might be someone even higher
I might be reading too into it....but wouldn't that just be the DM?
He answers to the writers.
@@user-zz3sn8ky7zI believe your right
@@godspeedhero3671Who themselves are servants of the DM
@@bluebird3281well, yes and no. If they truly were we would either have all the books with all the lore so we don’t need to make shot up or no books and the dm has to write everything themselves.
I love Karsus. He made a helluva impact on the world... before turning into a super bleeding boulder ghost.
... Man, vestiges are wild, aren't they?
I can barely imagine how much you have to search through years of content and books to gather this information and put it all together and do this amazing work, congratulations and thank you for another very interesting video. shout out from brazil
Valeu mesmo!
Hey no requests nor demands, but a solemn statement of: Ive watched your channel for over three years now, and Esper you truly are a grand teller of tales. Carry on.
Were Demon Lords a lot stronger in earlier editions? I can't imagine a 5e Demon Lord managing to imprison a full deity, like Graz'zt did with Waukeen.
13:28 I never expected to see one of my minis I shared on Reddit show up in a video. I am honoured XD
Speaking of wich, I really should update and improve that mini
"With enemies, you know where they stand. But Neutrals? Who knows?"
"What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
"Tell my wife, hello"
Gilean is one of the most neutral from dragonlance. I always thought the dispassionate observation and documentation of history was one of the most neutral things possible.
Wow once again Esper goes above and beyond and thoroughly delivers on a whole category of the pantheon I completely forgot about!
What is it that makes a god turn neutral? Want for power? Lust for gold? Or are they just born with a heart full of neutrality?
I just woke up, so this is gonna be a treat. Thanks Esper.
good morning!
@@alfredobelloni3258morning!
Thank you too, enjoy!
I think I’m gonna take an existing character from my setting who’s nature is completely ambiguous but the party _knows_ there’s something more to him & give him a Silvanus makeover.
I intentionally hadn’t decided what he was yet, and I like this
That list of "true neutral" pop-culture characters is making me lose braincells. Tyrion, Snape, and Treebeard are NOT true neutral
Fangorn was neutral, but the D&D alignment system doesn’t fit in Tolkien.
Hobbits (other than the Fellowship ones and bilbo) could be considered neutral in the same way,
Neutral like regular people: mostly minding their own business and maybe even looking the other way when bad things happen to others, but capable of doing good or evil
But yeah definitely not “True Neutral”.
Honestly I’d call Illuvatar true neutral in a way close to the D&D meaning, tho Tolkien, having been spoiled by being convinced to be Christian, wouldnt see it that way.
He somehow thought the Christian god wasn’t evil, for instance 🙄
Wow, Silvanus is an environmentalist. Very based.
This series nostalgically reminds me of Faiths and Pantheons and Deities and demigods from 3e
Have you looked at how the deities are presented in "Explorer's Guide To Wildemount"? I know most, if not all, of them are versions of deities from the Forgotten Realms, but how they're presented in the book is interesting and I think they're different enough to be thought of as a separate pantheon that happens to have similarities.
Why not cover the Lady of Pain? Even though she is not technically a god (even punishes those who attempt to worship her as this could eventually turn her into a true god, which she apparently doesn't want), she is still divine somehow and Sigil is effectively her godly domain. She seems to be the epitome of True Neutrality along with an expression of what pain and suffering is caused by the clash of all the alignments across the planes. According to her origin story, she was daughter of another god, but didn't want to be a god so took a dip in the River Styx to forget her divinity. So she really does have divine origins.
Are you _trying_ to get mazed, berk??
Ravdnloft does have religions that no one talks about, but there is also mystara a setting where Mortals can ascend to godhood
Well done, enjoyed thoroughly! Next video: the most good aligned god? :)
About the wakeen thing in the end i think the whole thing about the gold becoming less and less valuable i think it's a show of her power even if she devalues gold she has so much and gains power from any commerce that she will quickly amass money once more and can be safely as extravagant as she wants
Definitely going to be using some of these deities in my setting! There’s so many gods in the forgotten realms it nice to have somebody sit down and talk about a few of them in this context.
I would LOVE for you to do one of these for the most Chaotic Deity next!
As someone who has only played 5e, could you make a ranking video or overview of each edition with pros and cons?
I started with the blue boxed set in 1980. The changes up to 3.5 were mostly building off of older editions changing somethings, strengthening others and adding or changing lore.
I don't know what the heck happened in 4th edition. To me it's the one edition I avoid except for some monsters. 5th edition has nerfed a lot of stuff and in many ways lost its grit
to softer builds and themes. This is the corporate hand stirring the pot. Weaken the game and making it more cartoonish to attract new customers.
the best thing about D&D is it's your game. You can ignore, modify or create new rules to fit your game. You are in charge of how gritty or fluffy your setting is.
When you think of the core rulebooks, think of them as guides rather than rigid law. I still like a lot of stuff from 1st edition.
Try pathfinder
I would love to hear commentary from the neutral gods during Karsus' Folly.
Silvanus: No problem, vegetation will cover this mess in time.
Oghma: That was a really dumb idea... never again!
Kossuth: Oooh, falling sky cities. Look at all the flames!
Gond: Repairs are going to take time after that accident.
Waukeen: That's going to be expensive.
Io: None of those cities better crash land on a dragon.
Ao: Nice try kid, so close to godhood but still a yard short.
Semuania typical non-lizard behavior.
Remember one character I had that wasn't a cleric but was instead a clerk of bralm as he wasnt neutral enough to requisition additional abilities but could still act as a notary for the party and provide other services for convenience's sake.
Had bralm portrayed as a more corporate style overlord who wanted her followers to adhere to insect like efficiency and always provide appropriate reports and receipts whenever possible.
Was good fun.
If you are doing other gods, please do Dragonlance!
These gods are so interesting! A great representation of Plato's god in Euthyphro, all beholden to something prior.
Ao is the system admin that just keeps the whole thing running
The whole time you were talking about *WAUKEEN* and calling her *JOAQUIM.* 🤣
I would of argued Mystra Mistryl as being a Neutral ACTUAL god than Karsus, which was only for a very brief moment
Mystryl has to allow the magic to happen regardless of intentions
Will you cover the Eberron pantheon? It’s a unique pantheon from the multiverse, with Tiamat being the only recognizable name with a starkly different origin.
It would b awesome to see you go thru the gods of D&D's Exandria setting.
I’m pretty sure Karsus actually had the domain of hubris for a brief moment.
I appreciate your effort! Binging on your content regularly
Amazing to find this video and your channel! I'm playing a Knowledge Cleric/Glamour Bard of Oghma in a long term campaign so far, but had no idea about some of these details.
It works though, as my pc only recently connected with the real Oghma by sheer chance in a crazy event. (The world has a fake pantheon that's managing to hide our side of the world from the view of the real gods)
Now Esper what I want to hear is what you would do to improve the DnD pantheon in order to make it more meaningful.
So Oghma was the god of the Overton window..
Most of these "true" neutral had strong tendencies chaotic or lawful. I wonder if Vesper read most of the Forgotten Realms books because true neutral is an ideal idea. Neutral Gods generally follow the good idea of self-preservation to fight evil from becoming the dominant force. Neutral or Good Gods generally don't try to become an overt dominant power.
I would argue the various non-evil elemental lord to be the most neutral
"All I know is my gut says maybe"
- neutral president, Futurama
I think if I ascended I would be the god of good science (knowledge & artificing).
Don't know if Ao would allow that
Poor Karsus, imagine thinking that you had finally achieved your wildest dreams, the kind people tell you would absolutely never happen, and right as your moment of triumph has reached it's crescendo, you die.
All things considered stealing a gods power seems like a better move than selling your soul to three gods but hey if liches are your speed you can grind it out to demilichdom.. godhood isn’t for everyone!
Hey esper , I’m planning a party of divine proportions and want to know who I should invite . In other words , who’s the most chaotic god / goddess
Gond to me is the most respectable and admirable god, as I feel he embodies the most human qualities in humans: knowledge, creativity, curiosity and productivity. where there's gond, there's guaranteed to be an advanced civilization.
"I have no strong feelings, one way or another."
Currently 2am, very tired but can’t sleep so I’m listening lore videos to help… tell me why I read this title as Neutral Gods of the MCU and was THOROUGHLY confused when the audio started 😂
AO is a bean capable of shaping worlds.
Just starting the video but I'm gonna say my lord Sardior.
I would like to see how gods of toril compare to Kryn
Like this is peak esper content
now i am thinking who is the most good god
Personal faves: Sylvanus, Grond and Oghma.
I think that a good "true neutral" god in real life is the hindu Vishnu. Yes, he is good in character, but he is concerned mostly with maintaining balance in the cosmos, he is the preserver after all. When an age of humanity becomes too orderly, he sends a chaotic avatar to make things freer, and when the world is too chaotic he sends a lawful avatar to bring order. Too bad he isn't in D&D.
Hoping to see the good gods soon!
2nd sertar from thor ragnorok
Excuse my bad spelling
I love d&d more drizzt and his companions.
would love to see celestian mentioned next time 🙏🙏
Ioun is a pretty solid neutral deity her goal is to just spread knowledge throughout the multiverse
Am I the one wrong about karsuses folly? Karsus successfully cast avatar. He became mistryl she only killed them selves because he wasn’t able to maintain the weave. Her killing herself didn’t destroy the weave, him becoming mystryll did. Her killing them and making mystra was what saved it. But it was too late. Netherill was destroyed. His plan was perfect if only he chose any god other than mystryl.
If you are a follower of Gond, you can't really use a weapon against anyone, because you always have to assume that they also worship Gond or being high skilled craftsman.
Wait a minute, didn't Karsus want Mystra's power to save Netheril and potentially the whole world rather than for himself?
he did it to combat a threat that was threating netheril, but that doesn't make him nessary a good person. the laws of Netheril empire, and by exstention his city were flawed, as it was an magocracy With an class system that threated non-human and non mages as second class citizens
He also was arrogant, believing that the gods were nothing more than people who had mastered magic that wasn't discovered yet and when he casts his spell that he wielded that same magic. Here's a quote about his personality: _"He acted like an excited child most of the time, and his tantrums were to be avoided at all cost. He could be warm and friendly or ruthless and tyrannical; there really wasn't anything in between."_
@@Crazor2000 Netheril was one of the most powerful polities in Faerun and they were being smashed the Phaerimm, who turned fertle land into desert that persists to this day I don't know for certain if the elves, Shou Lung or gods could have stopped them, but the war lasted decades and no one had intervened to resolve this apocalyptic crisis, which leads me surmise they were unable to help rather than unwilling to.
So imo this is a world-ending crisis. Therefore if one god has to take an L and reincarnate to preserve the common good then so be it. And yes magocractic tyranny is bad, but being gobbled up or melted by slugs is worse.
I'm sure he was an arrogant guy, most powerful people are. But it's clear he acted for the benefit of something larger than himself.
@@williamhenry8914 yes, but good intentions does not make a good person. actions do matter as much as intention. He spent over an decade developing a 12th level spell, so he could have made many things that could have helped win the war if he spent his efforts on other spells. why did he make the spell so he could get the power of a god? Part of it was because he wanted to stop the Phaerimm, but it was not the sole reason. His second reason was because he was wanted the powers of the gods, and believed this spell would make him an equal. a quote:_"greed for the power of the deities themselves caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people."_
It was not soly for just his people, it was also a goal to extend his own power into the realm of the deities. i wouldn't call him a bad guy, and his goal of getting rid of the phaerimm was noble, but i would hardly call him a good person. his actions were reckless, killed a lot of people (although unintentionally), and didn't care for the consequenses for the magic until it caught up with him. heck, he nearly crashed his city before his big spell when experimenting with heavy magic.
@@Crazor2000 Good intentions are the basis of what makes a good person, that shouldn't be controversial. Good people try to do good, and even if they fail they are not evil for trying to do good. There are further considerations but that's a baseline anyone can agree with.
As for him being selfish, I'm sure you can find some people who thought he was. But why should we believe them? Powerful people always have critics, so how do we know they were not themselves simply jealous or misguided? Primary sources can be liars too, or just wrong.
As for recklessness, it was indeed but there was a world-ending crisis going on. When your choices are take a reckless gamble and maybe survive or play it 'safe' and the Phaerimm destroy Faerun, then its time to be reckless. And it's great he was because the Phaerimm were defeated and Faerun survived.
@@williamhenry8914 the part was not from some random npc quote, it was the writers themself calling him selfish. you know the autors of the book that describe netheril.
there is a difference between a character in story calling him selfish, in the book, and the people who designed him. I think that is kinda a reliable narrator, since it's people who made him. You have to keep in mind that the is a difference between a primairy source in an historical text, and the authors who made up the character in the book describing his actions as a guide on what he is like and what his background is. they are calling him childish, greedy for power of the gods and a tyrant.
You talk about that his intentions were good, but good intentions can lead to horrible actions to justify it for "the greater good" or doing something that seems good in the moment but has horrible consequenses. it leads to a very, "The end justifies the means" way of doing things. sure having good intentions can make it feel less bad, but it doesn't justify always the action. In this case, his reckless attempt to grab at the powers of a god, got thousands of people killed and nearly destroyed the weave. i get giving people benefit of the doubt, but when does a good intention really justify the deaths that he unintentionally created?
and you talk about how he was great because the Phaerimm were defeated and faerun suvived, but that was not thanks to him. in fact he made situation actually worse. the phearimm weren't defeated by him, in fact his volly basically ended the empire of netheril forever and killed everybody in the floating cities that crashed down thanks to his choice, and giving the Phaerimm freedom to focus on the next target, which was an dwarven empire they destroyed. all those deaths are because he messed up and lost the war.
in fact the once that defeated the phaerimm was the Sharn, basically creatures that hate life draining magic, and the war between them resulted in the sharn sealing the Phaerimm later with what was called the "Sharn wall".
I wouldn't describe him as evil, but he has done a lot of things that destroyed peoples life, killed them and let to widespread destruction due to his own recklessness
suggest looking at some pathfinder gods (sure not officially dnd but has some interesting gods and fairly similar setting) they have some pretty good ones like
Cayden Cailean the drunken hero a popular chaotic good deity who was a mortal who became a god after a night of drinking and a bet
Lamashtu the mother of monsters and a primary enemy of the demon lord Pazuzu (much like in their real life depictions)
Desna cg godess of travelers and the stars
Pharasma goddess of birth and death and fate also the main deity of death of the setting
Shelyn the goddess of love and beauty and related things as well as her half brother zon kuthon god of pain and mutilation
maybe compare some shared deities like both versions of asmodeus
Nocticula the former queen of succubus but now a goddess of redemption and art
Naderi the deity of forbidden and tragic romance
the dragon gods apsu patron of good dragons like metallics as well as husband to tiamat and father to the patron deity of evil dragons dahak,
or the lessor divine power categories like (also suggest looking into some of the unique or semi unique outsider types they are some fairly good ones that surpass some of their dnd equivalents by a good amount)
asura rana's (as well as maybe talk about the asura themselves)
some demon lords like pazuzu
archdevils
Empyreal lord which are exceptionally high ranking and powerful celestials of the 4 types angels (ng), archons (LG), azata (CG also similar to good fey and would say much better then their dnd equivalaent group) agathion (NG and bit more naturalistic then angels)
velstrac/kyton demagogues (also kytons are much better then their dnd equivalents they aren't devils but their own type of fiend so more lore on them)
also for dnd gods suggest covering vhaeraun one of my favorite of the dnd deities
Wait, but what about the La- [sounds of being flayed alive]
how many times was killed the poor Mystra?
What makes a man turn Neutral? Gold? Lust for Power? Or were they just Born with a Heart full of Neutrality!!!! you sicken me
I think this series would be improved if you clarified the videos in it are specifically for the Forgotten Realms in their titles, or removed that limitation and discussed D&D's deities as a whole. Either'd work really.
I've gone back and forth on the best way to do titles. Ended up settling on just "D&D" for more traction and easier for people to recognize what it is, then I put Forgotten Realms on the thumbnail. But I'm still in doubt. Maybe it could be "Who Is the Most Neutral God in D&D? (Forgotten Realms)" My worry there is the title is getting a little too long.
@@esperthebarddamned if you do and all that. For the casual audience these videos will be most attracting the Forgotten Realms and D&D are synonymous. Your announcement in the video, and perhaps the byline in the description is good enough. Nobody in 2023 is keeping up with Greyhawk for example.
Deities are always setting specific and don't have any overlap unless specifically noted. So covering D&D deities as a whole would still need to be divided up by settings.
I had a bad idea, to play a neutral extremist in Dragonlance
IMO the lady of pain would be the most neutral as she doesn't want worship does little to interfere in the philosophical conundrums the factions embody. doesn't seem to can about anything but the city of doors and its subjects. she doesn't talk she just arrives and does what she does. she may be less or more than a god, nothing is said. also, another one would be primus. my list wouldn't have AO due to being too lawful or karsus for not really being a god. IMO Ao is the embodiment of law, the lady of pain neutrality and thurizdun of chaos.
You should read the Avatar series from the Forgotten Realms series if you haven't already.
It's a trilogy followed by a duology, that features the gods as main characters, especially the last two, as well as showing mortals becoming gods.
Starts off a bit weak, but gets much better and more relevant to deific lore as it goes on.
One detail is that Mystra , goddess of magic, is able to see the pov of any other god (or believes she can at least) and thinks that all of them (bar herself, and she might be wrong) are monomaniacal and can't see outside of their portfolio, to the point she takes her high priest to an insane asylum and compares the gods to the inmates there.
Oghma is a recurring character in those books and try as he might, while he can change the nature of his divine realm to however he likes, he can't imagine it as anything other than different kinds of infinite library.
The first neutral god sounds like a skin walker/windigo.
Do dark sun
You didn't mention one of the most interesting and contrary aspects of Gond, it's due to his will that The Forgotten Realms doesn't have (many) firearms. black powder exist but he wills it to be inert and nonexplosive. You have to use magical explosive powder if you want guns. Out of universe, makes sense, gives an explanation why guns are not around despite artificers making golems and other "high" tech things. In universe, maybe so he and those he favors can be more in control over weapon ideas/creation, not sure really.
Can you please talk about Uvuudaum!?
Where did you find those illustrations of all the priests? I've been looking everywhere for it.
They're from the old "Faiths & Avatars" and "Powers & Pantheons" FR supplements, IIRC.
I am surprised, no mention of the Lady of Pain? I am not sure if she is technically considered a god, but for that matter, Ao isn't technically a god either. What would you say about her neutrality?
The lady didn't let him do it, he would have died
Ao. Ayo?
What image is that at 0:40 I looks interesting
15:23 In regards to Waukeen I find it pretty weird to make the godess of wealth and money true neutral. I can see how it makes sense that such a deity should be neutral on the good/evil axis as money can be used for good or ill. Although even this is debateable as you could make good points why money is evil.
But it gets really weird on the chaotic/lawful axis. Money is always based on a contract which entails basically an entire society. Paper and digital money even more so, but even a currency that is based on valuable metals like gold kinda is. Gold has no inherent value. Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it automatically has value. Society just kinda agreed on gold being valuable and a sign of status. If people stopped doing that, gold-based currencies would become wortless. Coins have to be minted, given out and they come with regulations. Wealth thrives most in places with the rule of law because being an entrepeneur in a lawless land usually dosn't go very well as someone strong is likely to come along and take everything from you. More complicated forms of econmy (like the proto-capitalis mercantilism in the rich cities on the Sword Coast) produces far more wealth than simple ones. And the more advanced such economies and societies become, the more orderly and lawful they have to be to continue their function.
If I were to design a deity of money and wealth, I would definetely make them lawful. Either lawful neutral or lawful evil.
I overthink things too lmaoo
22:42 Is Ao really the most neutral deity, though? He is clearly neutral on the good/evil axis, no argument there. But it seems to me like he is not totally neutral on the lawful/chaotic axis and prefers the former. It's quite telling that the only god he didn't send to Toril during the time of troubles was Helm, who is the embodiment of lawfulness. He got really angry because the tables of fate were stolen e.g. someone endagered the previous order. Ao is lawful neutral or at least he is true neutral with a tendency towards law.
No mention of the lady of pain?
The lady of pain is very powerful but she is not a deity
Ao is the immortal couch potato.
Lol waukeens gold coin nunchunks sound hilarious
Of course a god of trades tool of destruction is the best at destroying wealth
Imagine challenging her a battle of commerce
And she whips out the the coinchucks like
[Behold, with each swing a million coins shall spread across the realms]
And she proceeds to do her best bruce lee impression all the while all your money becomes worthless
Oghma god of knowledge hands down is the most neutral god of Forgotten Realms
Every time i hear sylvanus, i think of Warcraft. But
hey lemme guess what most of these comments are gonna be... "man things were better back then"
who is the most neutral god in dnd, also known as who would win the dgaf war,
Ah, you misunderstand Waukeen. Gold is not the sole currency. If she turns gold worthless then she'll corner the silver market!
Let's go!!!!!!
True/Chaotic are the most dangerous. You have no idea how they are going to react ..
I genuinely have so much distain for neutral beings. I think that standing by and watching terrible things is in itself evil.
haha nothing more "good" than deciding your POV is the "correct" one and imposing it universally
@@apokatastasian2831Oh snap, touche
Sloth pride AND envy holy shit lol
Helm?
if its a stealth bomber why can i see it?
> waukeen just exfoliating gold all over the place
Explains a lot about 5e's economy I guess.
Ao is extreme neutrality.
Your quote from Han Solo is indicative of a Chaotic Neutral attitude, not Neutral.