"The mechanical brain does not secrete thought "as the liver does bile," as the earlier materialists claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day." Norbert Wiener, Cybernetics p132 Thoughts are not "IN" the mind. Thoughts are "OF" the mind.
I think that's very, *very* possible. And plausible. If you look at the two major options, materialism and idealism, both have things yet to explain. Materialism still has consciousness itself to explain - some folks claim that we "know how it works," but that's bogus. No one has actually presented a working model, and I suspect there isn't one. Idealism, on the other hand, needs to show in detail why our physical perceptions result in the observed laws of physics. One way to do that would be to show how interacting minds had to result in things like quantum fields - once you get there, then the rest of physics falls on top. It's similar to the direction Donald Hoffman is working in. So the way I look at it both camps have questions to answer, but I just see the idealists as having a better chance of succeeding. I've spent years, literally, trying to perceive an avenue to consciousness in mainstream physics, and I've just come up completely empty. They say "never say never," and I agree, but wow - I think materialism has a tough row to hoe here.
"Perhaps looking for reality outside of the mind is going the wrong way." Pretty much just as the ancient Greeks told us. Reality is spirituality, not physics. Physics can only describe. Spirituality is what motivates.
Amanda Gefter's quote @16:38 is astonishingly in agreement with the Samkhya Philosophy, and can also be the Vedantic philosophy if we include the Universe as a projection of the consciousness itself.
8:37 "Why can´t we humans achieve this?". If you would look at humans from a far, it would look much more complex than an ant colony. Just looking around my room, nothing here is made by me. How is that not collective intelligence?
Since there are a lot of Quotes here's one that's adequate to the last part: "One who looks outside, dreams. One who looks inside, awakes" ~Carl G. Jung🌈💚
Valid name dropping as he is not claiming it's his idea but more like showing what great minds have come up with …. everything we learn comes from someone else....doesn't it?
What a poor presentation! His speech on “Who controls the world” (TED-Talk) was by far better, even though I would not agree to the solution he presented. But at least, he was acknowledging that “reality” outside of human mind exists by analyzing the economic interaction in the financial world. Now, he ends up - after reciting a bunch of quotes from representatives of subjectivism, constructivism, positivism and other idealistic orientations - with the remarkable insight that “looking for reality outside of our mind is the wrong way”. Perhaps he could ask the survivors of the recent tornadoes in the USA if there exists an objective world, “reality”, outside of their mind. He should better study the history of philosophic thought, before compromising himself with this callow presentation. I feel sorry for him.
8:40 - I'd say we *do* achieve it. Human civilization has accomplished far, FAR more than what we'd all together have individually achieved had we no culture and society. We work together and thereby achive amazing things. And of course we're far from perfect - not doubting that. But you really just can't say we haven't risen above our status as individual beings. It just doesn't "feel" like a big deal because we do it all the time and take it for granted.
We can super organize humanity by bonding on our instinct! Giving the super organizm a pulse is all that's needed to manifest this new evolutionary species. Groovism is the belief in the power of music & uniting humanity with One Groove!!!
I've pondered things like that before. Have you ever seen the movie Jacobs Ladder? It's a similar situation with a soldier shot and dying in the Vietnam war and yet in his mind he returns home and lives a twenty year life as a postman with a wife and friends all all that goes with living life. If you are afraid you are still lying in that field I can tell you that you are not but why should you believe me? After all the guy in Jacobs Ladder believed all the people in his life were real as well. The best I can do is to say that experiences are what matter most and regardless of whether you are having those experiences in a physical body or in your mind while laying in a field after a car accident those experiences are still valid. Experiencing Disney World is experiencing Disney World whether it's through your physical body or through your mind/soul. Experiencing standing in line at a steak house on a busy Friday night is just as valid whether it is in your mind or in physical reality. To the observer (you) the experience is the same either way and the people that love you still love you whether you are in a field or standing in line at the steak house with them.
"temporary" implies that "time" exists separately as a reality without the need of a subject, that is the consciousness! But if the universe is indeed a collection of information created and experienced at the same time by the consciousness, then time and causality is a part of that information treasure too, which means, the consciousness might well transcend the notion of time, therefore could be "timeless" and the "temporary" word can't be applied to it, rather the world outside that the consciousness is experiencing is probably temporary!
I'd love to have a long discussion with this guy, but this was a mediocre talk at best. Your basic College Paper -- aggregate a bunch of information (in this case quotes) and spew it out in such a way that it sounds like a point of view with a news story ending "who knows, we'll, see, time will tell, maybe this, maybe that".
+jNode -- Ok, I've scanned through enough of your blog to get the gist and again I come away wanting for lack of original content and ideas. I'm just as intrigued as you are with the "deception of perception" (hey, that's a line you don't get say everyday) and I get all that. Things are not what they appear to be...at all. So let's talk about how things might be. What are your ideas, possibilities, and so forth? I'm sure you've watched the Chalmers TED talk. That was pretty good, but still. It seems like everyone is afraid to slap their dick on the table and propose some shit. My theory is that we do not exist and we are completely fooled by consciousness. When I say "we" I mean the conscious we. Self is just a concept in our minds....and that is all we are...abstractions. Narcissistic abstractions as it turns out -- "I can think of me, therefore I am special." This alone is a huge red flag when it comes to explaining who and what we are and what the hell is going on because self reflection is, by definition, a narcissistic act and deep down every swinging person KNOWS they are special and will naturally gravitate to anything that confirms that, confirms what they already knew. My theory is we are not special at all. That consciousness is nothing more that a pattern detection system, a damn good one as it turns out, but a system nonetheless and not any more important than the system governing breathing or the system regulating body temperature or the system.... Consciousness and that little narcissistic prick self are just evolutionary accidents. My theory also contends that self is recreated every morning you wake up. You literally are a brand new copy every single day. It doesn't feel this way, obviously. Instead it feels as though there is a unbroken link of continuity all the way back to your earliest memories. And yet when we examine these memories and compare to "self" now, we see different people, and the further you go back, the more unlikely it is that you were actually that person. You weren't that person. That was another self who had his day. Today is yours and it will evaporate tonight when you go to sleep and while you sleep the brain will update "self" and have a fresh copy for you in the morning. well, not you, the next day you. There was a very intriguing line in your talk, but you didn't expand on it. Something like "Far from being the center of activity, consciousness rest on a distant edge"...something like that. I googled it and David Eagleman is the source. I have had this same notion for sometime now that consciousness is just wisp of smoke off the fire in the brain. It's clear "we" are not in control of much of anything as compared to all the millions and millions of processes that are going on inside our body, controlled by the brain and other systems, but it just may be we are not control of anything. Just look at the studies that have cast doubt on Free Will. I also think that emotion plays big role in defining or giving rise to consciousness. That it is emotion which provides us with the "feeling" of being in the present moment. That perhaps emotion is the ingredient that projects us as a presence in space time. The notion of all this being a computer simulation is intriguing, sort of. But it just begets what is the reality of the computer? It doesn't get you very far. The multiverse is fascinating as hell so simple and elegant that it's a DUH truth. Of course it's a multiverse. The one that I keep struggling with is "why something?" Nothing is abhorrent but is far simpler than something. I dont think anyone has the handle on that question. Krauss's theory still starts from something and just calls it nothing. So...what are your ideas? What do you think?
+cseeger1 well, first of all, you are absolutely right. there will be little original content in "the illusion of knowledge". but that is also the point. we are arguably not lacking more knowledge at the moment. in fact, we are drowning in information. what is perhaps missing, is a bigger picture. taking a step back and connecting the existing dots---a synthesis of existing knowledge. I truly believe we have enough puzzle pieces and now should slowly try and start to assemble them. (for original work see for instance medium.com/@jnode/at-the dawn-of-human-collective-intelligence-5113f2d97de9#.yyrm2t9m8 or www.springer.com/us/book/9783642334238 ) I am also happy to see that more and more people are starting to question the everyday reality that presents itself when we wake up. and hence question the essence and reality of our own existence. I agree with the ideas you are proposing. on a personal level, it all boils down to the following for me, expressed in the last seconds of the talk: "But if we all really are in charge of our own universe, made of pure information, it is essential for us to look for wisdom and truth within ourselves. Perhaps looking for reality outside of the mind is the wrong way to go." expressing this intuition with other people's more eloquent words: "Or is it all too often Brain that sends us off in the wrong direction, following the echo of the wind in the treetops, which we *think* is real, rather than listening to the voice within us that tells us which way to turn? [...] The masters of life know the Way, for they listen to the voice within them, the voice of wisdom and simplicity, the voice that reasons beyond Cleverness and knows beyond Knowledge. That voice is not just the power and property of a few, but has been given to everyone." (B. Hoff, The Tao of Pooh, Penguin Books, 1982, pages 153/154).
+jNode +cseeger1 oops, youtube comment section could deal with the strangely formatted medium link. so here a working link: bit.ly/dawnOfHumanCollectiveIntelligence
1:35 Eh, certainty may be 'stupid', but it's a necessary survival tool. You have to make strong decisions and stick with them, knowing full well you may be 100% RIGHT!!! Then when you're not, you just make it so you're still right. We call that adaptation, of course. Being too uncertain means you hesitate, you get distracted by contingency plans, you don't act, or when you do, it's too late. All of that may detract from the big picture or your primary goal in life.
I think decisiveness has always been an important key to survival. In this financially run world, it's ever more important. I think that's what I was trying to get at, in so many words.
If the world and therefore "life" that we perceive might be an information distribution created by our consciousness, then it could be that the subject is just creating a snake and running away from it to save its "life".
What a waste of time. This guy starts off good, being scientific, showing how 'information' is real not the 'stuff' in the universe. But then as usual, he goes on towards the "Consciousness" is all there is rhetoric and quoting Donald Hoffman. So tired of these pseudo-scientists always falling back on 'consciousness is the only real thing' while ignoring that 'information processing' is what's really going on here, whereas consciousness is just one fragment of this vast information processing. Better talks on this are topic are from Joscha Bach.
Bach is talking pseudoscience nonsense too. Saying that the brain creates consciousness and self (as Bach does) is not to state a scientifically proved fact, or even a scientifically prove-able fact.
"The mechanical brain does not secrete thought "as the liver does bile," as the earlier materialists claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day."
Norbert Wiener, Cybernetics p132
Thoughts are not "IN" the mind. Thoughts are "OF" the mind.
Consciousness is fundamental. All else derives from it.
I think that's very, *very* possible. And plausible. If you look at the two major options, materialism and idealism, both have things yet to explain. Materialism still has consciousness itself to explain - some folks claim that we "know how it works," but that's bogus. No one has actually presented a working model, and I suspect there isn't one. Idealism, on the other hand, needs to show in detail why our physical perceptions result in the observed laws of physics. One way to do that would be to show how interacting minds had to result in things like quantum fields - once you get there, then the rest of physics falls on top. It's similar to the direction Donald Hoffman is working in. So the way I look at it both camps have questions to answer, but I just see the idealists as having a better chance of succeeding. I've spent years, literally, trying to perceive an avenue to consciousness in mainstream physics, and I've just come up completely empty. They say "never say never," and I agree, but wow - I think materialism has a tough row to hoe here.
"Perhaps looking for reality outside of the mind is going the wrong way." Pretty much just as the ancient Greeks told us. Reality is spirituality, not physics. Physics can only describe. Spirituality is what motivates.
Amanda Gefter's quote @16:38 is astonishingly in agreement with the Samkhya Philosophy, and can also be the Vedantic philosophy if we include the Universe as a projection of the consciousness itself.
8:37 "Why can´t we humans achieve this?". If you would look at humans from a far, it would look much more complex than an ant colony. Just looking around my room, nothing here is made by me. How is that not collective intelligence?
Why are they all coughing so much?
I am that that experiences the clicker 🕳️👀
that clicker drives me nuts
what was that 1980s bit of technology he held in his hand....the one making all the 'clicking' noises..
Since there are a lot of Quotes here's one that's adequate to the last part: "One who looks outside, dreams. One who looks inside, awakes" ~Carl G. Jung🌈💚
I am nothing . I know nothing .. But I needed to see and hear this .. Have saved myself.
People who are violently coughing in the back - have enough courtesy for others and leave the room the next time, it's very obnoxious
Valid name dropping as he is not claiming it's his idea but more like showing what great minds have come up with …. everything we learn comes from someone else....doesn't it?
Yes someone else or something else.
culture does dictate science , the Medical profession is a glaring example orthodoxy is political
A good collection of quotations and facts already existing in the domain, many of which are probably known or heard by many of us.
What did the Zen Buddhist say to the hotdog vendor?
"Make me one with everything!"
"deep man, so deep"
Great talk!
✳️
What a poor presentation! His speech on “Who controls the world” (TED-Talk) was by far better, even though I would not agree to the solution he presented. But at least, he was acknowledging that “reality” outside of human mind exists by analyzing the economic interaction in the financial world. Now, he ends up - after reciting a bunch of quotes from representatives of subjectivism, constructivism, positivism and other idealistic orientations - with the remarkable insight that “looking for reality outside of our mind is the wrong way”. Perhaps he could ask the survivors of the recent tornadoes in the USA if there exists an objective world, “reality”, outside of their mind.
He should better study the history of philosophic thought, before compromising himself with this callow presentation. I feel sorry for him.
....what this guy do? he just gave a list of 'statements each coupled with at least one quotation from some scientist or philosopher...
down want me to be, just let me be me
8:40 - I'd say we *do* achieve it. Human civilization has accomplished far, FAR more than what we'd all together have individually achieved had we no culture and society. We work together and thereby achive amazing things. And of course we're far from perfect - not doubting that. But you really just can't say we haven't risen above our status as individual beings. It just doesn't "feel" like a big deal because we do it all the time and take it for granted.
Dear scientista what aboutadiscoveringaremedy for damaged brain?How far are you fromthis?
Is it possible there can be no future or present? Only a past that our conscious has reacted with ?
next time please leave out the clicks. I keep thinking he is training sea mammals at SeaWorld.
james could you post the details of that encyclopaedia of entheobotanical or psychoactive plants from the man in the fur i couldn't catch his name
It's when a.i. shows humans true reality, will we be ready?
We can super organize humanity by bonding on our instinct! Giving the super organizm a pulse is all that's needed to manifest this new evolutionary species. Groovism is the belief in the power of music & uniting humanity with One Groove!!!
Can I marry him?
fudgepacker
I was in a car accident years ago and I ust to constantly ponder if I am still lying in a field..
Is this a common ponder?
I've pondered things like that before. Have you ever seen the movie Jacobs Ladder? It's a similar situation with a soldier shot and dying in the Vietnam war and yet in his mind he returns home and lives a twenty year life as a postman with a wife and friends all all that goes with living life. If you are afraid you are still lying in that field I can tell you that you are not but why should you believe me? After all the guy in Jacobs Ladder believed all the people in his life were real as well. The best I can do is to say that experiences are what matter most and regardless of whether you are having those experiences in a physical body or in your mind while laying in a field after a car accident those experiences are still valid. Experiencing Disney World is experiencing Disney World whether it's through your physical body or through your mind/soul. Experiencing standing in line at a steak house on a busy Friday night is just as valid whether it is in your mind or in physical reality. To the observer (you) the experience is the same either way and the people that love you still love you whether you are in a field or standing in line at the steak house with them.
Why So many people cough and sneeze in this ted talks?
Colds and allergies
i have consciousness my 5 kg dog has consciousness all of us living beings do, it is only temporary in nature so treasure it
It is not temporary, it is everything, always. You. as a Conscious Agent, cannot be killed or divided or eradicated....
"temporary" implies that "time" exists separately as a reality without the need of a subject, that is the consciousness! But if the universe is indeed a collection of information created and experienced at the same time by the consciousness, then time and causality is a part of that information treasure too, which means, the consciousness might well transcend the notion of time, therefore could be "timeless" and the "temporary" word can't be applied to it, rather the world outside that the consciousness is experiencing is probably temporary!
I'd love to have a long discussion with this guy, but this was a mediocre talk at best. Your basic College Paper -- aggregate a bunch of information (in this case quotes) and spew it out in such a way that it sounds like a point of view with a news story ending "who knows, we'll, see, time will tell, maybe this, maybe that".
+cseeger1 a little more context can be found here: j-node.blogspot.ch/2015/07/the-consciousness-of-reality-illusion.html
+jNode -- I'm impressed, Mr. Glattfelder, that you would respond to my comment. I will check out your stuff. Thanks for taking the time.
+jNode -- Ok, I've scanned through enough of your blog to get the gist and again I come away wanting for lack of original content and ideas. I'm just as intrigued as you are with the "deception of perception" (hey, that's a line you don't get say everyday) and I get all that. Things are not what they appear to be...at all. So let's talk about how things might be. What are your ideas, possibilities, and so forth?
I'm sure you've watched the Chalmers TED talk. That was pretty good, but still. It seems like everyone is afraid to slap their dick on the table and propose some shit.
My theory is that we do not exist and we are completely fooled by consciousness. When I say "we" I mean the conscious we. Self is just a concept in our minds....and that is all we are...abstractions. Narcissistic abstractions as it turns out -- "I can think of me, therefore I am special." This alone is a huge red flag when it comes to explaining who and what we are and what the hell is going on because self reflection is, by definition, a narcissistic act and deep down every swinging person KNOWS they are special and will naturally gravitate to anything that confirms that, confirms what they already knew.
My theory is we are not special at all. That consciousness is nothing more that a pattern detection system, a damn good one as it turns out, but a system nonetheless and not any more important than the system governing breathing or the system regulating body temperature or the system.... Consciousness and that little narcissistic prick self are just evolutionary accidents.
My theory also contends that self is recreated every morning you wake up. You literally are a brand new copy every single day. It doesn't feel this way, obviously. Instead it feels as though there is a unbroken link of continuity all the way back to your earliest memories. And yet when we examine these memories and compare to "self" now, we see different people, and the further you go back, the more unlikely it is that you were actually that person. You weren't that person. That was another self who had his day. Today is yours and it will evaporate tonight when you go to sleep and while you sleep the brain will update "self" and have a fresh copy for you in the morning. well, not you, the next day you.
There was a very intriguing line in your talk, but you didn't expand on it. Something like "Far from being the center of activity, consciousness rest on a distant edge"...something like that. I googled it and David Eagleman is the source. I have had this same notion for sometime now that consciousness is just wisp of smoke off the fire in the brain. It's clear "we" are not in control of much of anything as compared to all the millions and millions of processes that are going on inside our body, controlled by the brain and other systems, but it just may be we are not control of anything. Just look at the studies that have cast doubt on Free Will.
I also think that emotion plays big role in defining or giving rise to consciousness. That it is emotion which provides us with the "feeling" of being in the present moment. That perhaps emotion is the ingredient that projects us as a presence in space time.
The notion of all this being a computer simulation is intriguing, sort of. But it just begets what is the reality of the computer? It doesn't get you very far. The multiverse is fascinating as hell so simple and elegant that it's a DUH truth. Of course it's a multiverse.
The one that I keep struggling with is "why something?" Nothing is abhorrent but is far simpler than something. I dont think anyone has the handle on that question. Krauss's theory still starts from something and just calls it nothing.
So...what are your ideas? What do you think?
+cseeger1 well, first of all, you are absolutely right. there will be little original content in "the illusion of knowledge". but that is also the point. we are arguably not lacking more knowledge at the moment. in fact, we are drowning in information. what is perhaps missing, is a bigger picture. taking a step back and connecting the existing dots---a synthesis of existing knowledge. I truly believe we have enough puzzle pieces and now should slowly try and start to assemble them. (for original work see for instance medium.com/@jnode/at-the dawn-of-human-collective-intelligence-5113f2d97de9#.yyrm2t9m8 or www.springer.com/us/book/9783642334238 )
I am also happy to see that more and more people are starting to question the everyday reality that presents itself when we wake up. and hence question the essence and reality of our own existence. I agree with the ideas you are proposing.
on a personal level, it all boils down to the following for me, expressed in the last seconds of the talk:
"But if we all really are in charge of our own universe, made of pure information, it is essential for us to look for wisdom and truth within ourselves. Perhaps looking for reality outside of the mind is the wrong way to go."
expressing this intuition with other people's more eloquent words:
"Or is it all too often Brain that sends us off in the wrong direction, following the echo of the wind in the treetops, which we *think* is real, rather than listening to the voice within us that tells us which way to turn? [...] The masters of life know the Way, for they listen to the voice within them, the voice of wisdom and simplicity, the voice that reasons beyond Cleverness and knows beyond Knowledge. That voice is not just the power and property of a few, but has been given to everyone."
(B. Hoff, The Tao of Pooh, Penguin Books, 1982, pages 153/154).
+jNode +cseeger1 oops, youtube comment section could deal with the strangely formatted medium link.
so here a working link: bit.ly/dawnOfHumanCollectiveIntelligence
This guy is the ultimate name dropper.
1:35
Eh, certainty may be 'stupid', but it's a necessary survival tool.
You have to make strong decisions and stick with them, knowing full well you may be 100% RIGHT!!!
Then when you're not, you just make it so you're still right. We call that adaptation, of course.
Being too uncertain means you hesitate, you get distracted by contingency plans, you don't act, or when you do, it's too late.
All of that may detract from the big picture or your primary goal in life.
Manic Tiger depends on your environment and timeline. Survival of the fittest, not the most alpha
I think decisiveness has always been an important key to survival.
In this financially run world, it's ever more important.
I think that's what I was trying to get at, in so many words.
If the world and therefore "life" that we perceive might be an information distribution created by our consciousness, then it could be that the subject is just creating a snake and running away from it to save its "life".
What a waste of time. This guy starts off good, being scientific, showing how 'information' is real not the 'stuff' in the universe. But then as usual, he goes on towards the "Consciousness" is all there is rhetoric and quoting Donald Hoffman. So tired of these pseudo-scientists always falling back on 'consciousness is the only real thing' while ignoring that 'information processing' is what's really going on here, whereas consciousness is just one fragment of this vast information processing. Better talks on this are topic are from Joscha Bach.
Bach is talking pseudoscience nonsense too. Saying that the brain creates consciousness and self (as Bach does) is not to state a scientifically proved fact, or even a scientifically prove-able fact.
@@danzigvssartre If theoretical physicists stuck to what they know, their "fame" appeal would decrease to near nothing.
Not adding anything new to the body of knowledge surrounding consciousness when all you do is quote other people. AVOID.
Drove me up the wall
blah blah... click click.
what an intelligent thing to write....one day a thousand years from now we will be smart enough to understand