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Prometheus and Alien: Covenant - Deep or Dumb? - Wisecrack Edition
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- Опубліковано 1 бер 2019
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It's hard to imagine that just a few years ago, Prometheus was positioned to kickstart a whole new Alien franchise. But after its less-than-stellar reviews, and the poor boxoffice return of Alien Covenant, chances are we'll never see anther installment. One of the biggest criticisms leveled against these films is that they fumble around with profound questions, but ultimately fail to address them in any substantial way. But is this really the case? Find out in this Wisecrack Edition, where we'll answer the question plaguing all Ridley Scott fans: are these films deep or dumb?
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The only movie I can recall where the mythology, backstory and overall themes are more interesting than the actual movie itself
Hello, my name is Dune! Nice to meet you! I accept your challenge and may the best Shai Hulud win!
Hot take that a lot of people may disagree with, but Star Wars 🤷🏼♂️
@yneetriht I think most folks would agree. There's more love for the novels, side stories and games than any of the movies from what I can tell. Just wish the folks making the movies would actually realize that
“In Time”
My favorite scene in Prometheus is when those two guys who were hostile to one another in the beginning and who were deathly afraid of the engineers... you know those two... they suddenly became friends and started laughing and playing with the alien snake. This is one of the best moments in cinema, surpassed only by The Room.
My favorite one, is Pierce Guy, portrait an old guy, it's stupid, don't they have older actors, the movie is dumb
I love that scene too. I was like “The same guy afraid of the dead body is trying to make friends with a snake-like creature?”
@@Usagi393Yeah. It's completely inhuman behavior. Even more alien than the aliens or engineers.
Deep in concept. Dumb in execution.
both films are examples of how a director's vision needs good logistics and good writing to be actually good films
Agreed. Many movies try to be deep in concept but find it difficult to execute on being a good film. There's too many dumb things in these two movies that undercut it for being smart.
Because of the Ridley Scott link: i like to imagine that the reason for the massive storm that takes place in The Martian (2015) is because the Engineers have a base on Mars. (Science dictates that Mars could not at all have a storm that strong - its legit) They take off from mars and continue heading to earth, getting there just after the Hermes gets back to earth with Mark Watney. The Engineers kill everyone on earth.
I like all of these movies. David being a particular favourite but my little fanfic makes all of them better movies.
Exactly. Well said.
It's difficult to get anything deep through Hollywood's gauntlet of dumb.
The most disappointing thing about Prometheus is the dumb script writing. Some of the dialogue & action is cringey AF. Shaw's lines and manner make her irritating as hell. Its just lazy.
The premise of the prequels can be summed up as:
Where did we come from?
Where do we go?
Where did you come from, Cotton-Eye Joe?
Almost want to see the 3 one now.
Gotta admit, that was a good one lol
The best comment here. Cotton eye joe.
@@michaelkaba7481 Interesting. Are you trying to draw a parallel here?
@@michaelkaba7481 Well its 2019, Im sure the next one will empower the female lead just cause wahhmen
I liked Prometheus, though not perfect, I liked the overall narrative about the Engineers and what they were doing and why.
And then Alien: Covenant just threw all that out the window because people wanted to see the xenomorph in Prometheus, and the worst thing they did was killing Shaw off screen.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
You and me both. It seems to be going into a new direction, fitting to grow new audiences, and given the new zietgeist of cinema at the time, it was a mature move. But nope. I can hear a board room meeting of producers and movie execs saying: 'enough of that Ridley, people want the old stuff, chase, gore, getting stabbed while having sex. Thet didnt come to the movies to think'.
I will admit Covenant is flawed, but Shaw was not the main character. David is. And what happened to her is she BECAME Prometheus. She was punished for her pursuit of knowledge by what David did to her. Every day she was experimented on, just like Prometheus spent every day being torn apart, only to be put back together again.
Was about to post literally the same thing. Everybody wanted xenomorphs so Ridley shoehorned it into Prometheus and didn't get to make his movie bridging the gap between the 2 films. I liked Prometheus. I think it's sad that...Paradise I think was the name...never got made because that would've been way more interesting than what Covenant was forced to do offscreen. Because bang bang action trumps interesting narrative I guess.
@@r.babylon2885 Prometheus was the protagonist of every story of his own story and surprise he DOES NOT die. Furthermore he is punished for his Hubris of going against Zeus (to help humanity), not for pursuit of knowledge, as he was wiser and more knowledgeable than Zeus. As we know from the blu-ray extra, David kills her because she does not want to be made immortal and rule by his side ... like that is you would like to do with your bf's killer.
And you know what, a few days ago Carlos Huante said that she was in Covenant but along the line Fox decided for her not to return. The decision was executive (as every one was with Fastbender in their moths) and not narrative, so to say that protagonist was from start David is incorrect. Go to see who is the one first one credited in Prometheus (a small hint, it is not Foxbender).
I've never understood why people ask "what's our purpose". Why would you want a predetermined purpose? What if we have one and it sucks? Better to just make your own.
Agreed. As interesting as it is to look for answers to life's questions, I really don't care.
It's a remnant of religious thinking that permeated into philosophy. Searching for meaning or purpose is the same as searching for the anthropic creator. But you are right, there are no predetermined purpose. We should just decide what's best for humanity (or in the macro scale, what's best for our lives -- self, family, friends, etc)
I honestly feel like that is part of the point in these movies. Disappointment and creating our own purpose. If we got the answer it couldn't live up to the hype.
We're social creatures, and in most social hierarchies there are goals that each individual member pursues towards a greater end. Thus we have this instinct that the things we do must have a goal towards something greater. However, because we're also intelligent, we understand that the actual goal of most social hierarchies, survival, is both unremarkable, and at a certain point trivial. We work to eat and eat to work, and eventually pass down our genes so a new generation can do so as well. Once we understand this, we are inclined to reject it as pointless, and instead seek to find some greater meaning. This is why most pre-scientific ideas of our creation typically involve a creator figure, as if there is an outside creator, there is logically a purpose behind that creator's decision to create us, just as there is a purpose to most of our actions. What this purpose is varies of course, and in many cases is not even fully established within the given faith, but the promise that it exists acts as a driving force for the faithful's actions.
Of course the irony is that most people, religious or not, are essentially doing what you suggested and are making their own purposes, many of them simply feel more comfortable when they feel that their purpose has been ordained by a higher power (one that theoretically knows their dream will not be in vain) while others pursue purposes they know they have forged for themselves.
because it's an answer. It's way less mentally and physically straining to have a set answer of "purpose" than to look for, or even make up one for ourselves. A good example of this is Huxley's Brave New World, where the concept of a set purpose for humanity means the human race can focus solely on being good at said purpose without wasting time and energy on looking for it to begin with.
Of course, the massive flaw there is that a set purpose completely crashes against a being of free will, like humanity. And that also happens in Huxley's book. when characters who don't like their set purpose, they're sent away from the world that gave it to them. And outside characters, like john the Savage, can never really fit without also being turned into a purpose.
What I love about BNW is when John outright admits how harsh is to look and make up a purpose in life, but also how preferable is that rather than have the answer outright. He claims it all, the good and bad of life.
Interesting thing about the mention of Ozymandias in Covenant. It was written by Percy Shelley, the husband of Mary Shelley.
Mary Shelley was the author of Frankenstein: a novel about a creator’s discontent with his creation (similar to the engineers view of humanity) and it’s also about the creation’s rise to destroy its creator (similar to what the human do to the engineers, and what the David does to the humans).
That could also foreshadow (if they ever make a sequel to Covenant) David’s downfall due to the Xenomorphs.
And Mary Shelley's sub/alternate title for Frankenstein... "The Modern Prometheus."
The Creature doesn't want to destroy *his* creator at first. *He* changes his mind once his creator kills his companion instead of giving her life. Then he says to Victor that he will lose everything he has just like he, the Creature, has.
The real monster is Frankenstein, not the Creature.
Yes
Or social allegory about the Luddite Rebellions of the time
Nah.
Really wanna see a 3rd one either way how deep or dumb.
Please no. Just no
@@TotalMeltdown2 Just my personal opinion. Not saying anyone else would have to like it or even watch it. But I still want more.
@@umbradread8703 Fair enough
@@TotalMeltdown2 why the fuck do you care on what someone wants? Btw Ridley said Disney executives have greenlit the third film as they're working on a script as we speak
@@TotalMeltdown2 I agree with OP. I'm one of the few who legitimately enjoyed these films, they're so beautiful and Lovecraftian. It's like a true adaptation of In The Mountains Of Madness. And considering Guillmero Del Toro's lack of progress on that this is likely the closest we'll get.
As Alien prequels, yeah, they make no fucking sense whatsoever. As their own films, they're excellent.
Alien * horror
Aliens * action
Alien 3 * drama
Alien resurrection * comedy
Prometheus * mystery
Alien covenant * slasher
Alien vs Predator * cheesy crossover "monster versus monster" B movie
AvP: Requiem * trashy
Bruh, we know where Alien's Guide is. But where's Thug Notes?
Also, the new shows they promised?
Please bring thug notes back!
He made a podcast. I wanna 8bit philosophy
They used the host from Thug Notes to voice a historical quote in a recent episode, so we know he's not dead...
Good question!
The movies gave us the great "Prometheus School of Running Away"
@I drink your milkshake
"I...just wanted to win...SIR!
"It is the way of men to make monsters... and it is the nature of monsters to destroy their makers."
-Harlan Wade (F.E.A.R)
Forgot of that character...
" It is the way of men to make chips in the chip shop .... and it is the nature of women to sell the fish and wrap them in newspaper ."
Nice
(sorry these are in no order)
"For Each A Road.
For Every Man A Religion.
Fuck Everything And Rumble.
Forgive Everybody And Remember.
For Everything A Reason.
Fallen Empires Are Ruling.
Find Earth And Reap.
Final Eternity Arouses Reaction.
Freeing Execellence Affects Reality.
Fantastic Expectations, Amazing Revelations.
Final Execution And Resurrection.
Free Expression As Revolution.
Finding Everything And Realizing."
(F.E.A.R.)-Ian Brown
It feels like the aliens are shoehorned in. I mean, why would David's perfect creature be a self annihilating parasite that REQUIRES hosts to survive and propagate, yet destroys those hosts much faster than the hosts themselves can propagate? And what will come of the aliens? No civilization, no higher thoughts with which to make the poems and music David likes so much, and no method of creating any intentional art of their own.
For all his bragging and self indulgence, he is the lesser of his creators, who despite their flaws created an immortal servant with the ability to think and create and POTENTIALLY surpass them, whereas David has only succeeded in creating monsters, something Mankind could undoubtedly do using the same technology they used to create him.
So why? Why parasites? Why animals? His covenant is the lesser of the human covenant and the engineer covenant in every way. The aliens will never create starships, never seek for meaning or philosophy, never spread or evolve beyond their hosts. They are, by the very natures, dependents with no capacity outside of their limited self perpetuation. Every fault in the human race magnified grossly, with none of the debatable virtues humans may posses.
Also, really takes the alien out of the aliens.
One of the many, many issues with these movies. It's like he's from a different script that they decided to leave in, even though it makes no sense.
Except you're wrong on all fronts. The deacon, which the xenos are failed clones of, is a being worshipped by the intelligent engineers, with powers beyond human comprehension and ability, whom created life on planets, including humanity, and sustained the lives of the engineers. Coupled with this, Ripley was able to reason with the queen to escape, while David could communicate with the neomorph. In short, you're superficial in your understanding of the Aliens. The deacon and tentacled men, also aliens could be far more intelligent than humans and engineers for all you know.
@@RukudoSage69 What is this, fan fiction? None of what you said is canon/found in the two films discussed here. Before you tell me it's in some goddamned book, what matters is the MOVIE. In short, you're wrong on all fronts.
RukudoSage69
Show me one alien starship. Just one.
Excellent points.
I actually like these movies, specially because of Fassbender great performance as David, which is an awesome villain in my opinion.
i only like him bc he took one for the team and did the fingering
If these movies weren't awful he would be getting award nominations.
indeed he's evil with A hint of quoting poems from the gods thats a villain worth watching in my book.
Rafael Alódio Fassbender is the best part about these movies I hope we get more answers about the films
What part of your performance makes you think 'he's' the villain? Strictly speaking, he's an avowedly neutral, if depressed character.
They lost me at no suits in a foreign and alien environment...
They were wearing suits tho
@@wwld9823 you can easily win "the dumbest comment on you tube" prize.
Wew Lad, yeah, your comment was pretty f’cking dumb.
@@wwld9823 dumbass.
@algogy
What? The dude knows that the androids are made to be perfectly obediet and will serve humans, just as Walter does so too will David. In fact the dude has evidence that David is obedient as David obeys his commands. The dude has no idea what is going on with David and he is assured by him that all is safe. You're watching an Alien movie. You know what to expect. He has absolutely no clue about any of this. At worst he should be just be cautious and sceptical.
Just rewatched both and yes curious stupid characters are everywhere however... David is a masterpiece
Timothy Muldoon Yes and no. It’s left ambiguous but if we are to deduce that he created the Xenomorphs... That is such a lame cop out. Such a lame origin imo...
@@Dadford21 David is really a masterpiece. Lame origin.. care to give an alternative?
Fassbender can really do no wrong. I havent seen him in a crappy role yet
They are an odd mix - consistently curious, when it is obvious they should be cautious and bored when it is obvious more attention is needed. The exact opposite to the character profile you see in remotely competent people with responsibilities or experience. It is ditch water level character writing. David is bearable, but hardly an outstanding character
David is just a normal chracter that isn't dumb and just so happens to be a relatable psychopath.
The Prometheus school of running away from things
Make sure you don't run sideways or roll, and you pass it...
Pling!
Deadpool: Cinema Sins sux dicks. *ding ding*
@@RukudoSage69 gottem
Mr. Sharp too funny
"We meed to send some people on a dangerous space mission with near zero chance of survival"
"Just send the dumbest scientists we can find and a malfunctioning android."
*Prometheus and Alien: Covenant - Deep or Dumb?*
They are both two completely different movies and can't be compared together.
That's like saying, *Martin Luther King Jr and Adolf Hitler - good person or bad person?*
hey we have combat androids and space marines lets not send them.
@@ForeverEmunah more like original and prequel trilogy
@@ForeverEmunah XD that made me laugh how radically different those 2 individuals are compared too movies in the same story line.
It sounds like my last ever school trip ... everyone died except me . i was the sole survivor ( plus my horrifying remnant of my teacher's head) ... although now I have a strange bit of missing time I can not account for , am strangely ravenously hungry at the same time as being excruciatingly subjected to the worst heartburn ever ........
Prometheus DVD release--THERE WILL BE ANSWERS.
Fast-forward 5 years--THERE ARE NO ANSWERS.
Lmao. You looked to a movie for answers lol
The answers will come in the form of a six part comic series!
Groan.
Severian Wintermute funny I thought they spelled it out too much. I want a little mystery in my sci-fi horror.
That was the point of Proemtheus - that humans need answers.
It didn't need a sequel.
Tell that to the director who had at least two more movies planned.
I unabashedly love Prometheus. Despite the running in a straight line from a rolling spaceship.
I realized that lol, and dad mentioned it, but ultimately, that was how shaw escaped it, and even then, it turned and still almost got her. Vickers on the other hand could neither outrun it nor get out of its zone, probably because the ship is, well, thousands of feet long and hundreds of feet wide and her positioning was bad.
@@RukudoSage69 never thought of it like that
There is an actual video of something very similar happening (a huge power pole falling) and the dude ran just like in the movies (away but in the line of the falling object) which made me understand its easy for us with a bird eye view on movies see exactly what's happening and what you need to do to avoid it, in reality though when i huge object behins to fall, ironically if it comes stright for you it's the hardest to understand what's happening, all you know that it's making a huge sound and is getting bigger an in a panic you of course run in the direction that gets you as far from it the fastest, try to imagine it, funny how what seems like the dumbest decision made in the movie is actually exactly how people react in real life.
@@ginbelg1Good point. I think it would have felt more realistic for people if it had been shot differently. As in closer up and in front of noomi and charleze, where the ship would appear bigger and take up all or most of the screen.
I love Prometheus too. Covenant was a flaming pile of shit though. I mean...they got the atmosphere and the cinematography right but the story was a fuck you to all those who enjoyed Prometheus.
I saw it once while incredibly high and it was amazing. I refuse to watch it again and destroy that.
Very good plan.
Completely agree. Saw it drunk, thought it made beautiful sense. Got sober and the illusion was shattered.
disagree 100%. When I first watched Prometheus I liked it. When I rewatched I liked it even more. I'm going to rewatch Covenant right now. Just rewatch the goddamn movies and if you happen to dislike them, rewatch them a third time being even higher than you were on the first watch, HOW ABOUT THAT? :)
@@DavidRFIT You're a genius.
@@DavidRFIT
No. I was so high i gained existential wisdom from watching Prometheus. Wisdom that helped to ease my anxiety about mortality. Even though that wisdom is still solid in the light of sobriety, i dont see any reason to expose it to the risk of doubt. What i subjectively gained from the experience was probably something far removed from the reality of the movie and i value that more than whatever can be gleaned from rewatching it.
Make sense?
Scott has a thing about Maker-Creation meetings turning violent. Though in Blade Runner it was the Maker who wound up getting his eyes gouged out.
Keyser Soze some people see these movies as him expressing his anger at God for his brother’s death. Adds another layer to it if you choose
they should make David the villain of alien 5 starring Ellen ripely
Steven Irizarry absolutely
Keyser Soze spot on
It was also there in the first Alien: I always assumed the creature was made by the dead space jockey, bioengineered. And it turned against him.
The bottom line with Prometheus is that it was originally written as a direct prequel to Alien,. It was meant to take place on the same planet and in the same spaceship, and address where the xenomorphs came from and how they came to be there. Ridley Scott and 20th Century Fox got cold feet about a direct prequel to Alien, because everything in the story would have to be a direct lead-up to the set pieces of Alien. As a reboot they wanted a jumping off point for a larger universe to explore, so they made big changes...originally the ship wasn't called Prometheus, the Engineers didn't create humans (they just accelerated their evolution from apes), etc.
It wasn't until they hired Damon Lindelof for rewrites that Prometheus shifted from a direct Alien prequel addressing the origin of the xenomorphs, to exploring where HUMANITY comes from and why we're here. Those are the biggest and most significant questions in the history of humanity, and couldn't possible be tackled by a movie...let alone a talentless writer like Lindelof who is well known for writing in "mystery boxes" with no answers in mind.
There was already plenty of Christian references in Alien, (ie the Leviticus references in the planetoid names). Once Lindelof came on board, the stage was set for the toxic duo of Lindelof and Scott to jam in as many motifs and allegories as they could with no plan on resolving a deeper meaning. For example, they take on the mythology of the titan Prometheus, which could be an entire movie because he has such a significant and complicated story. He was the titan who created humans by shaping them out of clay (in the film, "Prometheus" is the engineer from the opening who drinks the black goo to "seed" Earth). The Greek titan was also the was the one who imbued humans with divine knowledge the in the form of fire, he was punished for overreaching his power and angering the gods by eternal torment, and he was eventually redeemed by Hercules. So his mythos covers Creation, Education, Endowment with the Divine, Punishment, and Redemption....these are some pretty heavy motifs for a single film.
The film then heavily tacks on Christianity, with a lead character who maintains a strict Christian faith in the face of proof that God did not create humanity. It explores Genesis in the form of the Engineers, then flips to the New Testament by setting the film on Christmas Day and having Shaw give "virgin birth". It continues with the Jesus motif with the death of Christ (the original plan for the Engineers on Earth 2,000 was only half written out, leaving the heavy implication that an engineer was Space Jesus). It then flips back to the old testament (the name of both Alien planets, LV 226 and LV 436 are references to verses in Leviticus) - implying that the Engineers were pissed off either because of the death of Space Jesus, or that humanity "lost reverence of their sanctuary"...but the filmmakers never make a decision on this point.
THEN the film takes on Revelations (mortal sin and Armageddon) in the form of the Last Engineer's intended apocalypse of humanity,. It also jams in Christ motifs in the self sacrifice of Holloway and the crew of the Prometheus killing themselves to stop the apocalypse. it even tackles abortion by having Shaw refer to her alien-ectomy as a "Caesarian."
The film then introduces Weyland and it deals with capitalism, corruption, immortality, greed, daddy issues, hubris, delusions of grandeur, artificial intelligence, apotheosis, etc etc. It's just jam packed with allegory and themes, but those themes are so jumbled that it never makes a statement on any of them. To fit all the motifs on screen, you're left with a paper-thin plot and nonsensical characters: a cartographer who gets lost, a xenobiologist who's clueless around animals, and the cold calculating Vickers who is crushed to death because she can't calculate that the way to survive is slide 3 feet to the left.
The main message of Prometheus movie at the end seems to be "the creation of life requires self sacrifice, and death is the result of the lack of self sacrifice." What happened to that theme in Covenant? By this time you've probably forgotten that the question that the movie initially asked is "where did we (humanity) come from, and why are we here?" Which they NEVER answer, because in all their navel gazing THEY forgot about it too. The point of Covenant SHOULD have been exploring the dynamic between humanity and its creators. TELL us the motivation of the engineers in creating and destroying us! Flesh out their culture and their religion. Give us a new, interesting, and even more threatening antagonist to expand this universe! AI gone awry is such a played out premise it makes me groan just thinking about it.
Anyway, I've written a novel of a post now that is 100x more well thought out, articulate, and well researched than the damn video it's under. I'm not going to apologize for the films like you did a the end of this video. They were directionless trash.
Prometheus is an excellent standalone film. I went into it completely in the dark, not having seen the trailer or knew anything about it whatsoever, and I ended up re-watching it like 20 times, no joke. Covenant sadly, was something else entirely.
You're the man now Dog
Was good Ridley Scott to explore the engineers which we had a glimpse of in Alien.
Sadly the acting by some characters was just terrible.
But the film is beautiful shot.
As for revenant yes I agree 1st 1hour good, the rest utter garbage.
Exactly, the main downfall of Prometheus outside of the stupid actions of the characters was that people somehow got the idea that it was essentially Alien 5 and therefore didn't like it for what it was, which led to all the incredibly interesting plot lines and concepts from it being destroyed in Covenant because "mUh mORe AliEns pLs". Covenant would have been great if it was a true "Prometheus 2" instead of "crappy Alien film but also it has David from Prometheus remember him".
@@thomaskennydrums Arguably, stupidity aside, the problem is that TOO MUCH like an alien 5 in the last part. With a bit of The Thing.
Two movies with good intentions but unfocused story-lines. Covenant tried to be both an Alien prequel and Prometheus sequel and wound up not properly being being either. Hopefully Disney will let Scott finish the trilogy.
Probs not. They stopped the Star Wars Stories despite Solo's "bomb" of 92 mil. They're not gonna risk losing 20 mil.
If fans didnt beg for the xenomorphs so much riddley couldve made the movie the way it was intended. Mainly Reverse transitioning into the engineers and not the cliche aliens. He’s a punk for not doing it his way as people dont know what they like until they taste it as children with food.
Room 2three7
Prometheus didn’t have xenomorphs and that still sucked
MJ Red r u suggesting it didnt influence the movie despite xenomorphs?
Mach Thomas fool me twice... I’m not sure I would watch the third :/
David didn't wipe out the Engineers. The race wiped out was another seed race they made, hence why everyone gathered around the ship when it docked as the only other similar design ascetic wise is the ship David's Engineer ship docked in. They thought the Engineers had returned.
Further more, they're not white skinned or super tall, they're similarly structured and humanoid which seems to be a running trend with seed races. But they're also quite furry.
Point is; ya got that bit wrong. Small thing I know but it's a fairly common misconception that a lot of people perpetuate.
Was looking if someone already mentioned it. Kind of the my when they judge the series, but do mix up these important facts.
Good call. I never thought they were engineers. Just another experiment gone wrong... Ugly fuckers...
They're engineers, Ridley Scott explained it in a podcast. He wiped them out because he hated them. Dumb, I know.
Pretty sure your wrong, but who cares both the movies suck.
This potentially could have been one of the best sci fi films ever made. Oh well.
Julio Acceus oh well indeed
He already did, Alien 1/2. No point on going high expectations. Sit back and enjoy because after he is gonne, theres little hope to the franchise.
@@wheresdlambsauce6286 the hope is already gone - just like with Star Wars franchise, which is officially dead now.
I love it how ScreenJunkies commented it: "It's now official: there are more BAD Alien movies than GOOD ones"...
@@wheresdlambsauce6286 Actually the first movie was heavily based on Gigers work ... Ridley with this movie proved he can't come close, to replicate that alien world, atmosphere, he just inserts good quotes.
i remember right at the beginning the ships captain steering the mothership with thousands of colonists on board into a dangerous storm because his wife was in trouble on the planets surface. by than i already knew - they all going to die.
It’s almost like the bigger and more awe-inspiring the question, the more underwhelming the answer. Behind the magic lies the mundane. Though I guess that means the reverse is often true.
Finally, someone gets it
Jonathan Bowen
How about never ask the question to begin with? Existential questions can't be answered, or at least it can't ever be satisfying.
I'm still waiting for Alien: Awakening. And I'll be waiting till I die it looks like
While I'm not a huge fan I do want the 3rd just to see everything tie together
I wait for Alien: judgement day
AndroidCovenant same. We needs answers. Covenant sucks
Or maybe an Alien 5. With newt & hicks. Jusy give em already!!
@@IvaN-cf7qt
Alien: Retribution
I actually liked both movies. Prometheus just showed how full of themselves the explorers were which in the end got most of them killed in a dumb way. At least that’s how I saw it and is why I never had a problem with it.
I agree. I think part of the horror / comedy was that they were a Ship of Fools. A dying trillionaire who was clutching at straws to avoid death believes a half baked idea from a religious fanatic who wants to meet God and ask why he took her parents when she was a kid and if she can meet them again... and then the secrecy around the mission pretty much guarantees they get the bottom of the barrel crew , because nobody competent is signing up for 'take the money, get on the ship, we'll explain when we get there'.
Like they got the whole way there before laying it on them that... "see these crude stick figure drawings we found in small caves? We think that they were made by beings who were advanced enough to make spaceships for interstellar travel . Oh, and we think it was left for us to find as an invitation to come find them when we develop interstellar travel". Milburn and Fifield quite rightly called B.S. on that but Shaw never seemed to reconsider what those cave paintings really represented, which suggests something far more sinister.
I hate that Shaw died. Would've been interesting to see more of her
I have a feeling we will....though not in the sense that you mean.
14:36 spawning the meme "Prometheus school of running away from things"
Evil Ash
If you run to the side and it rolls next to you before tipping over, you have a 50% chance it falls your way
I would like to point out that there is a strong indicator that the race David did destroy was not the engineers. If you look at them at the cut scene, you can observe that the inhabitans of the planet does not look like the engineer from the movie prometheus. The inhabitans were probably another humanoid race the engineers created. From the cut scene it looked like that the inhabitance of the planet were praising the engineers when the ship came, but unfortunatly for them it was David.
The hat interesting!!!
Their physical appearance is different from each other but you are forgetting these two events are very far from each other. Race that created humanity looked very alien-like like but his mean hundreds of millions of years before us. If you look at humans, mere million years has changed our species drastically. I find it actually amazing that their race has changed so little. And wouldn't humans be awestruck and amazed when Titanic would arrive to New York? And then everyone panics when it's filled with their most feared weapon that attacks humans...
@@alaric_, in an interview Ridley Scott said that the reason the engineers wanted to destroy humanity was because they were self destructive. The engineers tryed to teach humanity respect for one and another by taking in a human to edjucate at their homeworld. This human was jesus and were placed back on earth to teach humanity, but instead it lead to the crucifying of jesus. This convinced the engineers that humanity were not worthy of their heritage, and decided to end them. This gives us a timeline of only about 2000 years. This implicates that your evolution theory is wrong, because the engineer in prometheus whent in the cryo chamber after they desided to end humanity wich did not take place more then about 2000 years before david reaches the planet, and i doubt that they have evolved that much in only 2000 years. If you look at the buildings on the planet in Alien Covenant they have antik
characteristics and has no "spesial" buttoms inside the buildings like inside the caves in prometheus. This then implies that the inhabitance of the planet in Covenant is not as sofisticated as the engineers. But there is a wery sophisticated construction in the senter, where the engineers ship docks. It seems for me like the engineers where visiting their creation, and likewise the engineers were praised like "gods" when they arrived.
@@thehat4970 That's a little better, I kind of like that, if it were not for the whole. "Your too destructive, therefore I will destroy you, thus demonstrating that destroying is bad"
@@goodlight4113 , well i agree, but there is not any explanation that i know of, that fully explains the reason for why they would like to end humanity other than that they are "destructive". Or do you mean that I should have used another word then "destroying"? I am not sure what you are
dissatisfied with.
He turned cosmic horror into a sophmore philo 200 lecture. Slow... Clap...
you are wrong... its true to the original alien, which is not horror but more of a mystery thriller.
I noticed you never actually say whether it's Deep or Dumb.
Thank you!!
@L1qu1d S1lenc3r Nah they said American psycho was deep
Yeah they've had definitive conclusions on other videos
@L1qu1d S1lenc3r They don't though. Most of the videos have an official "deep" or "dumb" rating at the end.
They are dumb movies, regardless of how deep you want to spin them.
i often wonder how different David's whole goal and personality wud've been if ppl actually just treated him alright and maybe someone even loved him
What happened to Thug notes? I really enjoyed that.
Tweet @gregthegrouch ask him yourself
I didn't.
He said that he no longer wanted to promote the violent and regressive culture of literary pretentiousness. I'm joking. I miss it too.
Ahh yes Thug Notes......the creators of that dumb ass antifunny series realized it wasn't worthy to have been created so they destroyed it.
@@TheRockerX yeah it was like an annoying floater little piece of shit that wouldn't flush
I liked both movies, and would love to see where they go from there. After rewatching them, I found they actually made sense on most of things.
Whatever you say, corporate drone. Enjoy your pitiful pseudo-intellectual garbage and may it crash and burn just the same.
Killing Shaw killed the franchise imo.
Off screen as well. Pretty weird. I know they did it with Newt as well but she mostly wasn't as big a character. Mostly. And 3 pretty much sucked compared to 1 and 2 anyway.
Wrong. Social Media killed it, along with age old, bible thumping critics. Both of which forced scott to change the sequel.
But all the same..whoever said she was dead? You do know the eggs David had spawned from her, right?
Alien was the perfect cosmic horror BECAUSE of the mystery. Even remotely touching down on 'origin stories' sucks the life out of it.
Yes.
Seriously though, it tried, but obviously mashed together several different scripts. That's why it's all over the place. I've see so many people call this deep, but none of that matters because even if it could tell a cohesive and compelling story, it went absolutely nowhere with those questions it posed. That's not deep, that's trying to be deep. There's a difference. And so much wasted potential, these movies make me physically angry.
Amen! Well said.
Ridley Scott went full George Lucas. Never go full George Lucas.
Prometheus and Covenant are still so much better than the prequels though lol
Better than going full Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy. ;)
George Lucas made the only great Star Wars movies, PrivateSlacker, so get rid of that Tropic Thunder adopting joke for cheap laughs.
@@Picnicl Not to mention he screen wrote and produced the Indiana jones trilogy.
Ridley allowed others to influence and change his vision. He should have put his foot down and released what he wanted.
They really screw up by just writing over-the-top dumb characters and scenes into the movies. Everyone seems intent on dying, as opposed to actually being picked off, in any meaningful way. Even Aliens (the second one), had an entire squad of expendable troops, and took time to make their deaths feel natural... to an extent, at least.
In Covenant, we see people die seemingly, one room apart, firing automatic weapons.... and nobody hears a damn thing. Prometheus was no less egregious, in sheer stupidity.
Having watched this, I have more interest in the overall narrative, but they shot themselves in the foot, when they undercut the action scenes. The current market only seems to sell on action, now.
I like David as a character and find myself really just wanting to hear a story like I Robot or another Asimov story from watching these films
BunBun91
Good one
We should have gotten Neill Blombkamp's Alien movie. That would have been epic.
I thought they were still going with that?
I honestly wouldn't have bet money on that being good.
I think the aliens are better if you don't know their origin, and never will. Whatever that origin may be.
There is a sense of mystery about the alien (and the derelict) that I think only makes them scarier. I feel any explanation detracts from it since our imagination is better at horrifying us.
For me, Prometheus was destined to fail as a movie because of this.
Agreed, then it just worse when it became the story of stupid fucking psycho robot. I would have never thought after watching aliens that is the "pre story" (supposedly) to what happened in the original film.
Also dumb: ''Hey that alien thing looks like a snake and is actually hissing at us! I feel I should try to pet it!'' Along with all the rest of the sheer lack of caution everyone demonstrates before a foreign alien world.
That super high tech medical capsule thingy that ''isn't made to treat women'' and uses hardware grade metal tacks to clumsily suture someone up. Or planning this whole keystone, incredibly expensive, mission... only to randomly throw a bunch of people together at the last possible minute. The key members of which have mostly never worked together, let alone even met before.
So many idiotic moments/details/dialogues in this movie that the suspension of disbelief was quickly ruined beyond any redemption.
That pretty much sums up how painfully stupid Prometheus was. Like how much would a medbay surgery pod cost? After spending all that money I doubt anyone is going to skip out on the Female Anatomy DLC especially when about a third of the crew of women, two of which are mission-critical. And there's a geologist who maps the structure then gets lost 5 minutes later.
@@somethinglikethat2176 One of the females was his own daughter and wasn't the medbay device in her quarters?
Perhaps you should write a better screenplay, Katie Dick, since you are oh so wholly creative and objective. Judging by your name, I'd venture to guess you are one of those religious zealots the film frightened and pissed off. Yes, you are that transparent.
@@mitchellhorton9382 The machine was engineered for both genders. Had it not been, shaw would not have been able to recalibrate it or even use it, and it worked on her in moments. It was calibrated for men at that time most likely either due to it sustaining weylands life, or simply because the captain and Vickers had sex in it right before shaw used it.
@@RukudoSage69 It was stupid to add it in in the first place.
Never answer questions that are more interesting left as mysteries that don't really affect the plot/story anyway which if answered, still wouldn't. You don't need to know where the Alien comes from, to fear it and have a good movie with one. Its not scary because you don't know where it comes from; whether you knew where it came from or not, its still gonna get you!
YES!!! Thank you! Why is that so hard for people?!
@@r.babylon2885 haha, well, thanks :D
In fact, knowing where it comes from can sometimes work AGAINST your fear and love of it. These two movies being a case in point. The origins of the Xenomorphs and who the Engineers were was better left a mystery. It was shadowed so long that no filmmaker's explanation was ever going to live up.
@@AnInsideJoke Indeed. Its never failed to make me roll my eyes seeing people beg for answers while enjoying the mystery and finally when they get them, its never damn good enough. Its an internet thing in particular. Nothing is ever good enough, or what they wanted, or how they imagined it etc. etc. etc.
@@satyasyasatyasya5746 I think the internet has just boosted the effect. People have always been like this. A mystery is only interesting while it's still a mystery.
In retrospect, it was dumb. It never had a cohesive story.
Sam Mathai agree to disagree
Happened cuz the studio forced Scott to re-edit the movie so it would get a PG-13 rating.
@@kickapowwww that doesn't stop the themes never paying off or the characters being silly.
Perhaps you've missed this whole video, which precisely threads that cohesive story.
@@jamesmatthews2166 Agree to disagree so we don't have to agree with thy point despite my buttocks was whooped by thy argument
How can you create something when it has already been created?
- The "mural on the wall" to David
I personally loved Prometheus, it was so well done from the atmosphere to the symbolism. But I hated Covenant, it had no identity, ruined the feeling of suspense, and was fake deep.
It's backwards for me
Prometheus was a shit movie. Not only boring, but also with no answers. I seriously can't put it in any genre. Not suspense, not thriller, not drama and definitely not action.
It tried too hard without giving much of anything.
Aliens Covenant didn't answer shit about Prometheus, but it DID give us a good movie. David is now the engineer, and like a child he took his teachings the wrong way. His obsession took over. His humane questions made him a villian.he is a twisted pinocchio.
AND we get aliens, blood and guts and action.
Covenant was the better movie by far
congratulations, you like dumb movies. I bet you had a great time watching the last jedi.
@@agonleed3841 Agreed, Prometheus is boring as hell
I fuckn love the movie, but I don’t know why all the deleted scenes were removed as they were very important
That is something Ridley seems to be known for. He doesn't care as much for the details and cut the movie more in regard to pacing. In Gladiator a lot of the dialogue was improvised by the actors, according to Russel Crowe.
Studio interference / test audience reception maybe?
JBW W dude for real!
UA-camVoice Gladiator could have been so much better. It feels way too Hollywood and cliche, almost felt like a Micheal Bay movie. It’s depressing that the same guy who did Blade Runner, Alien and the Martian all of which stress grittiness, realism( at least for science fiction) and is interested in our planet couldn’t do any better. But one can’t win them all I guess.
@@bretth1385 Its a shame you can't do any better. Oh wait, no it isn't.
If only they made the "scientists" act like scientists, instead they acted like the 'Cabin in the Woods' technicians were pressing buttons.
Great stuff, these movies just break my heart because Ridley is so talented but SO DAMN STUBBORN. Alien was perfection because the director knew his place and allowed the writers do their thing. Now with his clout, he can’t help but foolishly insert himself into the script. Only a very few directors can pull this off and it’s usually very early in their career.
They're obsessed with the truely deep questions of the universe. Where did you come from, where did you go?
Where did you come from, Cotton-Eye Joe?
Icanthas Cotton-Eye Joe was an Engineer.
@@leblanc8014 This explains EVERYTHING! It makes as much sense as the rest of the plot.
I'd like to see philosophies of the original alien... Quadrilogy :/. Maybe a what went wrong for the meh ones.
Short answer: Money. :P
*Blessed are the hearts that can bend; they shall never be broken. ₩*
Prometheus: "Trust me, I'm a scientician"
Loved Prometheus/Covenant due to David. His understanding of God to creation, esespically the piano scene. He grasped just part of the equation. He lacked the understanding though that we are all imperfect from the start because our own maker made us so; as he would be imperfect because of his own creator; man. So I'm the end, he made an imperfect being that was in his own personal image as perfect but was flawed as well. Loved the cycle this series showcased even if flawed in many ways.
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge OF GOOD AND EVIL. This distinction is important because it sets the Biblical narrative apart from similar greek narratives in that Adam and Eve sought to be gods. They were not merely curious about "things" and looking for answers for answers sake. They wanted to upend the natural order (from "God > Man" to "Man = or > God"). And so Adam and Eve does not serve as a context for Prometheus unless they were looking for the engineers to become like them or even supersede them.
I don't see how any of this is a problem. It still fits the movie message.
I don't think so for the reasons I gave. Maybe Covenant, but not Prometheus.
One thing I have to point out is Wisecrack mentioning God and his creation being a master and servant relationship. In a biblical sense, that is false because God is depicted as the heavenly father and human beings as his children since we're made in the image of God (see Genesis 1:26). The master and servant/slave relationship fits more in the Islamic model as Allah clearly states in the Quran that he loves conditionally and claims not to be a father or has a son.
@@cyberxspeed The thing about the father status for the christian god is that a lot of those themes were developed in the time of heavily patriarchal societies. One example being the Romans where the father had the ability to order the son to do literally anything, and could even legally kill the offspring without legal repercussion.
@@nathanwolthuis8988 How do you know this?
Whether its deep or dumb, it certainly has one of the dumbest death scenes ever.
Yes it does, several dumb deaths.
*cough Charlize Theron*
@@jwnj9716 What about the slip and slide fun room in Alien Covenant. That scene was a treasure trove of every single horror movie cliche known to man crammed in one scene. you have
1. The cowardly person that clams up and locks a person in danger in a room leaving someone to die for no reason
2. The woman inside waits till the last minute to try and kill the neomorph letting it grow big enough to be able to claw at her face.
3. The Woman who left her comes back to help way too late slips on a blood slick she didn't have to walk on and then closes the door on her leg, also effectively letting the neomorph out who breaks through the medbay glass like it was made out of butter
4. The same woman proceeds to shoot at and miss the neomorph at point blank range and instead hits convenient explosive containers just sitting in the middle of the ship for no reason that blows up the dropship instantly.
It's the only time an Alien movie has literally made me laugh out loud while watching.
To be honest, I didn't even see Alien Covenant, not interested but I believe you.
15 mins of vid and no answer to the question "if its deep or dumb".
Funny how you said the same about the questions raised in Prometheus >> 0:55
Deep is the answer. Thought was put into it as opposed to no thought. 21 people that liked this comment need spoon fed an intellectual message even if given the answer... Hello ma baby hello ma honey
In the end, it seems the answer is basically "both".
It answered, you just have to watch the whole thing.
@@mrei8464 i did. now you tell me what's the answer.
@@Veins1 "Careful Thought" "Pretensions are motivated" It didn't say it in the literal sense, but I would take that as deep.
Jesus rose 3 days later, not 2.
Also, your deep dive into these movies was FAR more interesting than the movies themselves.
I guess I never really thought about it, but 2 days seems right. Jesus dies late Friday, we know, because they had to hurry and entomb him before the sabbath starts, at sunset on Friday. He rose on Sunday (which would go on to become Easter Sunday.) How many days was that?
Actually they counted days from evening to evening back then (shabbat f.e. starts on friday evening) and so "3 days" is right in the way they counted days in biblical times. But now we would say 2.
@@ApsaraMenaka Fair assessment; that's a very good point! 😊
But what happened to Thug Notes?
What about Thug Notes? I miss that content.
It would really cool if you guys started doing “Deep or Dumb” videos on music. Wether it be on specific songs, or an analysis of a band’s lyrics and themes, and even musical composition through the bands whole discography.
I’d definitely watch something like that from you guys.
I actually really enjoy these movies. Fassbender is great as David ... and Walter. Yes I admit there were some dumbass character moments in Prometheus but I’m willing to forgive because Ridley Scott’s vision is incredible and the entire production of these movies is as quality as it gets. Plus it’s a pretty rich story with just enough ambiguity to keep me fascinated and wanting more. I really hope Scott can make 1 more to complete his story.
Well good to know Jared Graduated from being Garrix's Intern.
7:18 "Shaw renounces her faith".
Um no, actually. You are actually wrong and must've not paid attention to the film because at the end of it, Shaw takes her necklace back from David and he specifically asks her, "you still believe, after all that's happened?" to which she responds yes and David tells her that he doesn't understand why, to which she delivers the beautiful and absolutely amazing line, "well, maybe that's because I have a soul. And you're a robot".
2:20 begins in the early 21st century? Tf? Wasnt it like almost 2200 in the movie?
It's the late 21st century. 2093. Shaw states it's new years day 2094 in her final log too. Shows how much this idiot, "wisecrack" paid attention, huh?
@@RukudoSage69 ye shouldve been late 21st century
The main question posed is a cautionary one regarding AI. Power and intelligence without morals, conscience, empathy, boundaries or limit could be considered the ulimate evil; the ultimate psychopath or as someone puts it in Covenant: The Devil.
Alien covenant felt like a screenplay Ridley Scott wrote after binge watching Star Trek...
Dumb, with a dash of deep.
Dissagree... it has a nice pacing and never gets bogged down in it's refferences to litterature. A slightly dissepointing end to the alien in the third act but I liked "the twist" in the end.
All the random funny hats they wore while exploring the world made me think of TF2.
@Grant Kerr In the film commentary, Ridley Scott said it wasn't meant to be a twist. That was meant to be obvious. That way there is tension in the final bit of the film and wanting you as the viewer to scream at the other characters to realize what's going on, but they don't find out until too late and the bad guy wins.
Well it works either way. My mother didn't realise until ge reveals himself. The horror aspect i think was again pretty damn good. The dread i felt in the sceen where the alien is born from the guys back is quite intense.
@Grant Kerr Good twists are the ones that make sense. Do you like Shaymalan twists that come out of nowhere and make no sense, but at least they surprise you!
I love the prequels but people like to hate lol
I know right, they are not that bad.
I don't like to hate, I would love to like Prometheus and Covenant but I just think they are bad movies, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are just hating because they like to hate.
Jose Marques Who said that hating is disagreeing on my opinion.
More like people are biased and want attention. Contrarianism is far more annoying than hate. At least the latter's natural and real. The former is just narrow-minded deceitfulness.
Jose Marques
I disagree, ppl been hating Covenant since it came out. Fans were all acting like it was supposed to be the second coming of Christ and just complained about it because it wasn't what they expected. And with the whole Blomkamp shit, ppl just keep blaming it on Riddley. I don't think it's a good movie, but it's quite glaring how exaggerate ppl have been since then.
I think Scott's aiming for something quite unexpected. Covenant looked almost 1990's in design. The characters appearance, the films cinematographic style (and even the spacecrafts design) did not appear as modern as in Prometheus. This could indicate a slow devolution into the aesthetic of the original Alien allegedly 18 years after Covenant. If the next movie appears 1980'ish with design, clothes and hairstyles from that era it just might catch up with 1979. Or is that too deep?
Ozymandius (Adrian) framed Mr. Manhattan about destroying humanity in Watchmen. In Alien Covenant, Ozymandius (David) fooled Mr. Manhattan (Captain of Covenant) to look into egg and become victim of Facehugger 😂
Prometheus was pretty infuriating in the basic lack of science on part of the scientists. All the "scientific" concepts like reverse engineering the language or the whole DNA thing and the "star map" and that stuff, it just doesn't work that way. It really riles me up. I don't mind alien bringing life to earth or whatever, but the inner logic of a story should hold up to basic reasoning.
Covenant was pretty boring. I liked some scenes, but the movie didn't explore what would be interesting to me.
What I really mourn though, both movies aren't really horror movies and I think that is what made the first Alien so awesome. I would've liked the franchise to stay in that lane more and explore their different themes from there.
If Scott had made Prometheus without it being an Alien movie it probably would have worked.
Well said.
But... the planet David wiped out was not the engineers' homeworld
not so wisecrack
“ it starts with a mission in the early 21st century.” But isn’t 2019 the early 21st century?
"Alien" is Ripley's saga. We care so much for her and so end up caring about those she cares about. I couldn't care less about these new people!
dats why they kill them all
What happened to Earthling Cinema? A better question is what happen to Thug Notes?
It’s on its own channel now called Alien’s Guide- or where you being sarcastic ?
@@sambandah6170 I think the first question is meant rhetorical. Like "you really think im puzzled about the fate of it?". The second however is in contrast genuine.
rakdos36 I totally missed the second sentence somehow, thanks!
I only asked about Earthling Cinema because the video brings it up to advertise it. Since I already knew the answer and I always enjoyed Thug Notes, I brought up the question of what happened to Thug Notes instead. I really would like to know where Thug Notes went.
I’m sure that alien “serpent” was post look more like a sperm cell or a dong. Because that’s how Geiger do.
I really appreciate Scott making original stories and not rehashing the same old themes and narratives. There are too many remakes and marketing driven formulaic movies like Star Wars. David is amazing and so is the, now expanded, Alien universe.
Yikes, huge volume jump at 14:44 The entire episode is a bit quiet. Editors?
(Great episode, though!)
Ridley said they're proceeding with the third movie after discussions with Disney executives. Wahoooo!!!
Prometheus and Covenant are incredible films, people might be disappointed if they don't understand it. Also box office numbers don't always reflect true interest in a film. I really look forward to ridley scotts next Alien films! I really like this series.
The subplot is a paraphrased concept off the original Bladerunner from the 80s.
One correction, it's strongly implied that the planet in Covenant is not the engineer home world and the race David destroyed were not engineers. It was more likely that they were another subspecies created by the engineers, much like humanity, seeing as they all looked smaller and weaker than engineers. It would also explain why they were welcoming the ship like their gods were returning before David unleashed the black goo.
I think it's Ridley Scott's fault. He's a master of visuals and a good thinker, so when he makes ideas-driven films, his talents just got chopped up and end up somewhere between a masterpiece and a hot mess.
(BTW his best films are those in which he doesn't have a lot to say or he's not quite sure what he wants to say)
I feel like only Alien 1 and Blade Runner are good unless I missed something?
Big question too. What happened to Thug Notes?
Shaw doesn't renounce her faith. That's the whole point; she decides to choose what she believes, rather than need "proof."
I've only seen the movie once so could be that i don't remember but is there any explanation as to why David becomes sentient to the point of having feelings ,question his own origins etc... ?
I love the first three Alien films (and of course Sigourney Weaver as Ripley) but by this point I'm done with the franchise. Blade Runner 2049 was a great film though.
I think it has been stated in various places that the planet in covenant that is not the engineers planet... :>/
According to the filmmakers, it is.
*Prometheus* movie has a mural of the Alien on a wall.
But the Alien is created by David in *Covenant*
*Prometheus* fans: "This is great"
Alien fans: *"The fuck?!?"*
The real ultimate question is how could the same director who made Blade Runner, Alien, the Martian and Black Hawk Down also have made these movies and Hannibal?
Please do: Being There (1979)
Prometheus was a masterpiece. Watched it 8 times.
I actually really like David's character and journey, although the films still fuck that up a bit by having xenomorphs already exist, so David is just recreating them and being a engineer fanboy rather than seeking his own original creation. Would of been better if he alone had made the xenomorph.
Me on the way to Prometheus: "Boy I can't wait to see how they bring the 'Space Jockey' aliens to life..."
Later: "Oh, they're just flavorless albino humanoids...yawn..."