For me, the greatest singer of the last 4 decades. There are loads more of her rare live recordings on this channel. If you like The bel canto repertoire, try the Armida finale or the Lucrezia Borgia finale, otherwise, Korngold, Strauss, Mozart, Massenet etc etc! Enjoy
There's infinite beauty in walking along the verge of the precipice, and not falling into it, in the abandonment, in piloting one's boundaries! Brava, La Fleming, never expected that of her
I have never heard such expressions being pushed completely to the limit of the voice and the music ! This is totally satisfying, and I don’t care about who sang this better, I think it doesn’t get any better than this. Fabulous!
Thank you for posting this great scene ! I've never heard it before. She is one of my favorite sopranos. I can't for the life of me ... why do some composers put the voice through this kind of trauma ? Fleming doesn't sound that good with those unpolished high notes ... but after this performance and _Armida,_ she returns to Strauss and sings beautifully, his music. It is a statement to her vocal talent ... I think.
For those who have asked me privately: this video was posted as its own blogpost with a negative comment on parterre, linking only to the final cabaletta, which is why there are so many negative comments on here (one assumes people who dislike it this much would have been unlikely to find it in the first place since few seem to be fans of Fleming in general). No complaint from me, I welcome the debate and think the recording stands for itself. I still love it!
The number of people absolutely PRESSED about this performance in these comments! This is excellent theater and I think Bellini himself would've recognized that.
I would never have guessed she would do well with this role. I expected it to be sung all quietly and carefully. This was a revelation, and I'm glad my expectations were really off. Thanks for this.
Honestly, I have heard this scena performed by so many great great singers. Sadly, one always compares the sopranos to La Divina Callas and also the sopranos sing it in the Callas way. Why would you listen to someone who sings it is the Callas way when you can listen to Callas. Fleming does it the Fleming way, completely different and that is what makes this artist so very great!.
quite apt! I listen to both La callas and La fleming and their Imogenes are both so similar yet different. They both use their strengths to portray the character to a T. Bravi Tutti
Other people and I will continue to measure Sopranos against the best Soporano ever, Maria Callas. So you want no one to ever be measured against one another? How will you measure musicians? Get a grip.
This is amazing! I actually prefer Caballe's 1970 recording to this for sheer perfection, but this is amazing in terms of combining beautiful singing & pathos. Fleming digs deep into her chest voice and then soars to some beautiful top high notes. Brava!!
Very glad you enjoyed it, I also love the pathos of it. Caballe can be wonderful in the Bel Canto rep but I really miss the chest voice which is essential for this scene.
you just don't combine these two types of singing in this Style of Opera from this time period. You might as well put a bottle of ketchup and a jar of mustard into your mash potatoes when just a dash of hot sauce, will do.
Some people are such stuffy purists, it's obnoxious. In my opinion, the way Fleming vocally acts is one of the things that makes her so unique and lovable. The fact that she does go outside the bounds of what would be considered "tasteful" and "stylistically" correct are what sets her apart from the cookie cutter mold of every other conventionally good singer. That being said, some of the most divine sounds I've heard on recording came from her. Again, that's my opinion.
Being longtime a devoted admirer of the Caballe performance I must confess I am completely shocked by Renee Fleming interpretation. 21 seconds long at ua-cam.com/video/zIFowgpg7wg/v-deo.html - simply fascinating
It's extremely theatrical! Doesn't sound like she had it completely secure in her voice. I admire the vocal risks she takes. Not always the best choices for embellishments. Bel Canto is beautiful singing yes, but it still require drama vocally to bring it to life. Marisa Galvany and Olivia Stapp provide that. Bravo for not taking a boring read of the score that many do. As she matured in this role, embellishment choices changed some
Olivia Stapp vs Renee Fleming? Are you serious. Stapp was a second-rate singer, who was okay in a regional opera company, but out of her league in any major opera company.
There is a tendency these days to Overdo and to distort the musical phrase for "emotion". And not just in opera. To me, this performance is similar to Bernadette Peters doing Losing My Mind in the most recent broadway revival, or I Dreamed sung by Anne Hathaway in the film of Les Miz. It isnoike they want to wring every drop of e option out, like squeezing a washcloth, bit ultimately, it is far less effective. Just listen (or better, watch) Dorothy Collins sing Losing My Mind. A great artist does the work, internalizes what the song is about and then just sings it, beautifully. Ibdon't hate this performance, but I find it over fussy and less moving than it would have been if she just concentrated on the line and kept it moving, instead of trying to "wring" every phrase.
Indipendentemente dei bei suoni come molti di voi ritengono io la trovo eccessiva nell'interpretazione fino a diventare ridicola. Nessun nesso tra testo musica e bel canto. Nessuno vuole fare paragoni ma è impossibile non pensare alla classe interpretativa e musicale della Callas.
I actually find Imogene to be the only role in which I don't much like Callas - not bad of course, but not as imaginative or instantly brilliant as her other recordings. Her acting however in the live video recording of this scene is stunning.
Jean Tsamblacos, non mi pare ci siano bei suoni. E' stupidamente eccessiva e quindi antimusicale e ovviamente volgare. Non si possono fare paragoni perche' non ci sono i presupposti. Ridicola e' dire poco e comunque non avrebbe ne il timbro evocativo ne un fraseggio "all'antica", che in questo caso e' alla base di questo specifico repertorio. Anche in altre produzioni con altri autori, la Fleming e' assolutamente generica, non ha uno stile, una cifra.
@@fabriziomariagarzi5534 non capisco neanch io tutti questi sospiretti. Avrebbe comunque potuto fare un lovoro dignitoso, pure coi mezzi che ha, ma si è sbrodolata e basta qua
@@Tkimba2 , grandi mezzi ( "C'era una volta la Fleming….) ma timbro anonimo/commerciale e la parte interpretativa da centro turistico, villaggio vacanze per ricchi signori...Noi andiamo sempre d'accordo. Ciao Tomba 2.
It’s a taste thing. I do understand this criticism. But I much prefer this to under emoting. Think how many completely blank, boring singers there are. Most bel canto performances are a complete snooze fest with voices completely ill equipped to sing the role.
@@greatmomentsofopera7170 I definitely agree with you! Fleming comes much closer to the concept of good Bel Canto singing than anyone else I've heard in the last 30 years! It's like the art has been all but lost in our day, and the few that have tried to keep it going just don't seem to have a grip on it. But I agree...Fleming at least adds depth to it. I love her Armida! Too bad she never did the entire role of Norma. Her Casta Diva is beautiful!
Art Danks yes. She had it in the diary to sing it in 2010 or so, but it would have been too late, as is evidenced by her Met Armidas from that year which are a shadow of her great 1993 performances. Would have been lovely to have had her in a late 90s Norma around the same time as that recording of Casta Diva with Mackerras. And if only she had said yes to Solti in recording Isolde (on record only a la Margaret Price).
I think this was around the time when her mannerisms were let loose. She is in great voice here, but her interpretation is a parody of itself as a result. The over-emoting actually makes the emotions inauthentic, and the embellishments are not within the style and are excessive to the point of stopping the momentum of the piece. She did quite a bit of bel canto around the time she first broke out in the early 1990s, and it was much more tasteful. Her mannerisms were there, but they were in check, so they helped to add a personal touch. As with most things, moderation is key.
Great moments of opera I know it was in the middle of her career. I use the microphone when I make a comment so please excuse my typos Etc. I recorded this performance when she performed at the Met and I kept listening to it over and over again the Mad scene Etc. And I really feel bad for her. I go I got so used 2 CABALLE singing this so obviously I was making a comparison. Renee has a beautiful lyrical voice probably one of the best lyrics Sopranos to come out of the United States. All Great opera singers sometimes make bad choices we're all human and so is poor Renee. So please stop picking on her. She will retire soon and will never hear her perform again. Thank you Renee for giving us all those great years of your great lyrical voice. I'm so glad you're good friends with leontyne price. I can imagine the great conversations you two must have. It'll be a sad day when she is gone. The last great diva.
Я хорошо отношусь к мисс Флеминг как к певице. В этой сцене на мой взгляд она явила подлинный и неприкрытый драматизм. В общем и целом мне понравилось. Особенно потому, что у многих певиц мне не хватает этого яростного драматизма и отчаяния. Но ноты??? Что за странная интерпретация🤷♂ Я вполне лояльно отношусь к изменениям авторского музыкального текста, если они направлены на большую выразительность. Но здесь это уже слишком. Так исказить авторский текст, это еще нужно уметь. Да и нужно ли?
Вообще-то все ноты на месте, у неё действительно есть своё видение, как петь. У вас абсолютный слух и поэтому кажется не то. Я люблю джазовые интерпретации и видимо поэтому мне кажется всё ок! 😅 Недавно я читала интервью с Mariella Devia, она отметила что есть всё таки культурные отличия, за океаном считается что belcanto можно петь как verismo, но в Италии ни в коем случае, искажать belcanto по её мнению это error
Su voz es muy especial y aunque la parte de la cabaletta es mejorable se compensa con la cavatina. Entre los comentarios negativos hay demasiada animosidad . Preferir otras versiones está justificado. Pero algunas de las criticas a Renée Fleming muestran una agresividad patológica.
Beautiful, but I always got the sense that she was trying TOO hard in this rep. Some of the mannerisms and interpolations are so gauche and overzealous that they almost become ridiculous. When she purely sings and expresses the score it's fabulous, but I feel like she was too conscious of the Callas/Caballe mantle singing this. The cavatina for example is gorgeous, but the chest notes in the cabaletta are flogged to death. Not musical.
jmiller05 interesting perspective. She is definitely trying very hard and pushing her voice to its absolute limits. However I find the result thrilling, and that high chest register fits the situation so well - the sense of fear is palpable. If you listen to this scene from start to end, the sense of character, atmosphere and story that emerges is quite extraordinary to me. As pure singing people might find it too much, but as drama, character, mood I think Bel Canto has rarely been this viscerally revealing of a person on the edge of an abyss, teetering between order and chaos.
jmiller05 I tend to agree with you. In fact, in all honesty, as much as I love Fleming, I find that she seems to do this with everything she sings...over does the "emoting", both musically and dramatically, to the point where it becomes rather distracting. I would prefer to see her using more subtleties. (Kind of the whole "less is more" type of thought.)
I admire her career. Her book. Her thoughts about being an opera singer. Her honesty. And shes an American. A big plus for me . Once a soprano came on the radio and I was blown away. Didnt know it was her. Omg. It was sumptuous. Then you get this mess. So ridiculous.
WHO is conducting? It's FAR, FAR, FAR TOO SLOW! Bad musical direction of a very great voice like Fleming's, though her 'Col Sorriso' is extremely beautiful.
The conductor does not set the tempo, the singer does. Or at least they agree in advance on tempi, but the conduct usually will agree to the tempo the singer wants.
This is good...there are some...overexaggerrated moments in this which shows me sometimes her acting is more broadway. Fleming is still one of the greatest right behind Callas and like maybe two other singers
Dommage qu'elle aborde le bel canto comme si c'était du vérisme. Ça fait que sa version semble exagérée voire désagréable. Comme elle a la voix, que quelqu'un lui fixe les limites á ne pas franchir.
Paddy818 she wasn't booed. You can hear the roars of approval at the end of this concert performance. She was booed for Lucrezia Borgia at La Scala by a very small organised group of men - see here ua-cam.com/video/-0WDnTxD2Mw/v-deo.html
Great moments of opera Yes I know it was LaScala and about the paid claques! Like I said, I'm a fan. I even sang with her once. But this is shapeless, sloppy singing. You color within the parameters the composer gives you with great use of rubato and dynamic and tonal shading! This is completely over the top and NOT true bel canto! Please listen to Callas and Caballe to see how it's properly done! Strauss and Mozart rein her in so she's not able to do these sort of shenanigans! That said perhaps seeing her made it a bit more palatable! Not trying to be antagonist, I just found this very irritating because she is in my opinion a great artist!
Paddy818 fine not to like it but you're saying you see why she was booed, and you know it was a different opera, in a different setting/city/situation, 4 whole years before. I know she's popular but to me Caballe doesn't scratch the surface of the drama, doesn't have the chest voice to support the line and she aspirates the coloratura as always. Callas is the mistress in this repertoire, an unrepeatable miracle, but Fleming offers a very different view and I'm glad to have both.
Great moments of opera To be specific, yes it was Lucrezia, which by the way I love her recording of the final aria! I'm all for different interpretations but this goes way too far astray! We all have our over the top moments
Paddy, I actually was there in Paris front and center to applaud the diva. This was a remarquable performance in every way and I can tell you if people were crying it was with joy and they were applauding like crazy. No booing whatsoever. The Chatelet theatre has a very small stage and the opera was not acted but only sung. Renée Fleming was standing a mere 4 or 5 meters in front of me the whole time. I did not miss a note. Wonderfully magic.
Mi permetto di esprimere un pensiero, se qualcuno cerca la classe interpretativa con la versione che ne da' Renee Fleming e chi la dirige dovra'volgere lo sguardo altrove, ma se parliamo di teatro e di emozione credo ci sia ben poco da eccepire. La spericolata interpretazione di questo brano trova un climax , non so' se sia la parola piu' adatta, di incredibile efficacia, se avessi avuto la fortuna di assistere a questa performance non credo che sarei rimasto attonito ma avrei partecipato al dramma esistenziale della protagonista piangendo in silenzio.A me piace per quello che mi offre a livello di emozioni aldila' della licenze che si prende!
Didn't know this was here on YT. Controversial is mild. Putting aside the distasteful mannerisms and choices that creep in here and there, there is indeed some lovely Bel canto and technically secure singing from her, with beautiful, long cantilenas. Some of the embellishments are less impressive and often embarrassing. Too bad the conductor didn't help her make wise musical choices. Dramatic impact, sincerity and intuition at the Callas level are absent of course but, OK, that's what we all have to live and contend with. To her credit, at least she seemed to try to do something individual with the role even if it didn't pan out in the end so that the sum is less than the parts. And Fleming of course had then a luxurious voice. But consider the absolute blank and wretch that is "Met star" Angela Meade and, well, the artistic situation/crisis is worse than dismal.
Para mi il pirata mejor cantado es de Caballé. En la grabación de su concierto en la Salle Pleyel de París se puede ver su interpretación incomparable. Adorando a Fleming, en este papel, la encuentro excesiva
I respect that Ms. Fleming took a chance with such an individualized interpretation. However bel canto it is not. Much like Sutherland she pulls, pushes, and tugs at the vocal line. One of the defining characteristics of bel canto is the smooth transmission of sound. Callas does this to perfection while imbuing her tone with a multitude of colors to express the emotion and feeling of both the score and the libretto. Yet she never distorts or exaggerates the vocal line as Fleming and Sutherland do. In fact I barely recognize this Pirata scene at all. It feels as though it is broken up into a 100 unrelated pieces. Fleming forgets this is “a singing” and not “a reading” - the music must come first as with Callas and the interpretation must serve and follow the musical line. This is the linchpin of bel canto. Fleming has essentially rewritten the score to suit her (overly) theatrical desires. Just because she has a beautiful voice does not mean she is engaging in beautiful singing. Fleming in this piece, and to a similar if lesser extent Sutherland in most of her bel canto roles, sound as though they are choking on and sputtering out their words while pushing and pulling at the vocal line as though it were a piece of taffy. If anything Fleming and Sutherland offer up a bastardized, degraded form of bel canto singing in much the same way that the Mannerist period in painting left us with an exaggerated and diluted interpretation of the painting principles of the High Renaissance. If you want to hear a smooth vocal line that conveys the variety and complexity of emotions intended by the composer’s markings, then please listen to the live recording of Callas interpreting Lucia’s mad scene under von Karajan’s baton in Berlin, the last 20 or so minutes of Callas’ 1955 Norma at La Scala beginning with “in mia man,” and Callas’ extended scene with the elder Germont in the Lisbon or La Scala Traviata. This is bel canto singing at its best.
Very well said. The theatre in Bel Canto has to come through the music. Callas excelled at this with her precision and taste for the style, juxtaposition of colors, registers, etc. Renee's "Funesto" was completely ridiculous. I don't even mind so much that she decided to speak it rather than sing but the way she said it just sounded so fake. Callas talked about practicing speaking her roles but I'm sure she did so in a natural sounding manner.
Yes Callas had a good voice for about 5 years... and was a great and classy musician however she ruined her voice singing large repertoire that wasn't correct for her coloratura voice. Hasn't Fleming already sang for 30 years on the international stage? Didn't sutherland do the same? Fleming still shows no sign of a wobble or tremolo and still has a steady tone. How many others can you say that about?
@@jimbuxton2187 Let’s be clear … Callas was singing well at the start of her career in the mid-1940s in Greece through her last recording, which was Carmen I believe in 1964. Quite a bit more than five years of great singing. I’m also tired of hearing about the Callas wobble - during these years when the vast majority of her records were made it’s rarely present, period. It pops up now and again of course, but it simply is not nearly as prominent as it’s made out to be. Furthermore there is no such thing as a “correct repertoire” for singers classically trained in the bel canto method of voice production. The whole point of bel canto training is to allow the singer to have complete technical mastery of his or her instrument thereby enabling that person to sing through the entire operatic repertoire. If the voice is thought of as the most flexible and expressive of instruments, then as with any instrumentalist in an orchestra who must play all kinds of music, a singer by the same reasoning should be able to sing all kinds of music. Callas firmly believed this to be true and said as much. No one ever wrote in stone that to have a great career one must have a long career, although longevity is of course preferable for other reasons. I don’t care if Sutherland had a career twice as long as that of Callas. Sutherland is an exponent of a debased bel canto technique. A hallmark of great bel canto singing is articulate, clear annunciation of the libretto and a firm vocal line. Sutherland was more than occasionally lacking in this department, especially in the second half of her career. In my opinion she should have retired 20 years earlier than she did. In a 100 years Callas will still top the list of the greats while I’m not so sure Sutherland and Fleming will be as revered. One last point, I think opera goers, especially Americans, are enamored of beautiful pretty voices and big high notes and more high notes and then even more! Bel canto is not about having a beautiful or showy voice, it’s about singing beautifully - in other words, singing that respects the vocal line by being firm and smooth in production, singing that embellishes with restraint and taste and within the parameters of the score penned by the composer, singing that sounds the words so they are recognized and understood as such, and needless to say singing that demonstrates complete mastery of all of the technical aspects of the medium thereby giving the singer complete mastery of his/her instrument to meet any and all vocal challenges.
Substituting screeches, screams and sighs for actual notes is the antithesis of true bel canto. At some points Fleming' truly beautiful voice peeks through the exaggerations of tempos, emotions, and sound that she seems to think are the equivalent of true bel canto. Perhaps with a conductor who would have reined in her excesses and who actually understood bel canto she could have produced a great performance. Here this is just an immensely self-indulgent demonstration of her voice with no relations to the composer or the true style of the era.
I adore it. She’s going right to the limit here - it’s the most convincing portrait of Imogene’s paroxysms I’ve ever heard, with an immensely disturbing atmosphere created by the voice, from beauty to brutality, nostalgia to terror. I understand it’s not in line with what purists want, but Fleming has taken a major risk here and it will not please everyone. Just to note, the scream at 2:55 which I think you’re referring it to is marked in the score: con grido, which means with a shout or scream. Some artists have ignored Bellini’s Intention here, but this is not a “substitution”, this is faithfulness to the score.
@@greatmomentsofopera7170 The artists who feel a more "organic" sense of rubato here might ignore the con grido at the beginning and take that suggested energy to put more energy toward other parts of the performance. This is along the idea that when you see two fermata close to each other you must choose one and put that extra time somewhere else, as a singer. When there's a cavatina and cabaletta to worry about -- all of the suggested impulses of energy and screams must be take as a whole and in measure, I feel.
I love that comment from whatever 456 I'm crying I'm laughing so hard.. YOU KNOW who is writing it don't you? Why Leontyne Price of course LOL!!! Or one of Fleming's other "competitors" ha ha ha!!!
Haha, glad you enjoyed some of it. But isn't that what is happening in the scene? Someone descending into complete insanity. It's a dramatic depiction of a psychotic break.
My total respect to Mrs. Fleming, but once you have heard like I did in the 70's to Caballe's IL Pirate, I simply can't say that I like Rene in this role...Rene or even Callas, no one will sing again this role like Monserrat did.
I know she’s many people’s favourite. For me she can’t be mine because of the lack of low notes in this role and the aspirated coloratura. I don’t mind being in a minority!
Two kitchen sinks, every mode known to music, and vocal folds flapping against the laws of physics were not enough for this performance. Bellini who? This is an exciting hoot.
Haha! She pushed the mad scene to the limit…not just a canary for sure, you hear the extremity of psychological journey the character is undertaking - on the edge of the abyss…
I love Fleming. She is definitely one of the greatest voices of this century. She indeed produces some beautiful sound here and there. But, this is a travesty of Bellini's writing. She is all over the place. She is trying to do all, but somehow ends up doing so little RIGHT. I mean seriously!! What the hell is that octave drop at 13:00!? Is she saying, "OK, I can't sing Abigaile, but you can't have a glorious career without an octave drop. Imma do it in Pirata!" Still worse, she chops the vocal line into pieces, sings out of style, adds unnecessary/presumptuous things. I believe that Il Pirata, especially the mad scene, contains some of the most beautiful lines Bellini ever composed. Her voice DOES NOT dance on the notes. It's more like the piece is trying to manage the voice, rather than the opposite.
Ali Offe thanks for the comment. It's definitely her most controversial role - some people love it and some hate it as I wrote in the video description. Is it just the cabaletta you object to? What did you think of col sorriso at 6:10 or so?
To be honest, I really don't know what to do with this rendition. Maybe i should give her more time! That section you pointed out is actually quite good. The voice is opulent, and as I pointed out in my earlier comment she produces a beautiful sound, too. Maybe it's the lack of weight in the voice required for this particular assoluta piece. But then again, Caballe lacks that as well, and she does not have Fleming's chesty tones, either. However, she is marvellous in this music. There is a certain technical achievement in this rendition. Then again, Fleming understands the voice better than many so-called bel canto specialists. I don't think she is at home in this repertoire, though. I listened to Callas' col sorriso d'innocenza and Fleming's in a row. Callas' voice magically dances on the notes, she sings the piece with remarkable legato and breath control biting into the words, shaping phrases in a painting-with-the-voice manner while Fleming is obviously having troubles in managing her voice although she is vocally in a much better shape. Maybe it's the schooling or the lack of intellectual process before the actual rehearsals. I feel like Fleming would have been a much greater Imogene under, say, Serafin's tutoring. I also read your reply to another comment concerning the Armida finale. Fleming's Armida was a YUGE surprise for me, i should say. It is textbook, which again shows us Fleming is one of the greatest.
Ali Offe glad you like the Armida. I think it's her greatest bel canto achievement, truly a miracle. Easily the greatest since Callas and there are some things I even prefer to the Callas. It's the only true Assoluta role she essayed (Borgia and Pirata are both semi assoluta roles according to the assoluta book that one may or may not accept - the requirements of all three are pretty ridiculous. Look on my channel for the Borgia finale too - somewhere between the two approaches you've already heard). Comparing anyone to Callas is a bit unfair, but no one will be surprised that she is the mistress in Bellini. With Caballe I miss the chest tones and in general find her middle voice old sounding somehow. Plus aspirated coloratura is always a major turn off for me.
I think she has a great voice as well. Her voice is not suited for the role. Many opera singers make same mistakes it doesn't make them terrible singers Etc we're all human. This was in the middle of her career but The Beat Goes On and she kept on singing and delivering incredible performances.
I admire miss Flemings tone , in general , but this is over-egged in the extreme, and the tasteless over ornamentation and strange descending scales, not to mention the exaggerated chest voice , obscures the music, sometimes less is more. This is from without, not within. A bit of a parody.
I fully understand that some people find it too much, but I love it I must say. I find it electrifying, and think it has an immense sense of atmosphere and a terrifying sense of danger, perfect for the drama. Fleming is right on the edge, which seems absolutely right for the character. Do you not even like the Cavatina, taken to luminous, crystalline limits?
Épouvantable. La voix et la technique sont tip top hélas le style, les ports de voix sont dégoulinants voire insupportables. J'étais dans la salle. J'ai cru péter un câble. Pardon, j'ai péter un câble. Et le public applaudissait... Insupportable.
angalafan Imogene is definitely her most controversial role, with the widest range of critical evaluations. To say she had no idea about bel canto is bizarre though. Have you heard her in the Armida finale? ua-cam.com/video/LfzqW5h8qsU/v-deo.html
Artists take risks. I understand that. Sills took on 3 queens and ended her career but her artistry was amazing . Maybe Fleming sees opera as a restrictive dying medium and would like to see it stay afloat . She certainly got us all chattering, didn't she?
From first note to last, this is pure fakery in the worst possible taste imaginable. She resorts to throaty and constricted barking, growling and shouting -- the cheapest and easiest tricks in her vocal bag of schtick-- because she had absolutely no understanding of or ability to deploy the detailed and subtle complexity of bel canto style and vocal production to transmit the composer's intention-- including "madness". She loves to compare herself to the jazz greats, but even Sarah Vaughn with a head cold new that the greatest effect was achieved by bending and shaping the musical line within the constraints of a frame, that's how the dramatic tension is built and released. Fleming occasionally produced beautiful sound, but rarely anything other than mediocre musicianship at best.
whatever456 Haha, don't sugar the pill, say what you really think! This is a textbook example of a guardian of the Apollonian, "classical" sensibility (with a hyper developed super ego (turned outwards)) meeting Dionysian, "baroque" expression. Historical examples like this could be multiplied into the thousands. The confines of good taste and expression are always in dialogue or perhaps more accurately in combat. Your opinion is welcome here, but I would suggest you take as evidence that the roaring cheers you hear at the end suggest that this speaks very directly and importantly to a very large number of classical music fans. Art does not exist in a vacuum and instead exists in relation to us as humans in our cultural and even biological needs. Even if the singing rulebook were as rigid as you suggest it is, the reaction you hear should immediately throw into question the role of taste (or at least your conception of taste) in great music making - is it a guideline for the best conditions for expression and moving communications, or is it the highest goal, is it a descriptive assessment of the best past performances or is it a normative standard by which things should be judged? Should Stravinsky, Strauss, Mozart, Beethoven, Van Gogh, Berlioz, have curbed their excesses when their critics repeatedly accused them of bad taste? Think of Strauss's Salome as an extreme example - the vulgarity of it is something we clearly want, and even need. It is immensely expressive of important aspects of humanity otherwise it wouldn't be so successful with so many highly cultivated people, even if it is in poor taste. For interpretative artists the waters are even less clear... is the artist's duty to the composer or audience or both, and does this mean that only HIP performances are valid or not, and how can we know what the composer's intention was - was it self expression or transcendent expression, or a vehicle for the performer, pleasure for the audience, or a mixture of these, and did they want the artist to embody their art and personalise it or did they want them to be a pristine virtuoso machine through which their ideas passed... the questions multiply into the millions, and each interpretative artist finds their own way. The marketplace of live performance then selects some performers to be stars or superstars, while the majority are neglected. If Bellini had said he liked this would you change your mind about it? What if Bellini had said that your favourite artist in his music was not what he liked - would that change things for you? The relentless bashing of Fleming by a small coterie of haters cannot make one ignore the fact that she is the most popular soprano of the last quarter century. This is not an accident or due to some sort of marketing ploy - to maintain that level of popularity over that period she is clearly speaking to a lot of people at some incredibly deep level - even if there are also those who cannot stand her. The same is true of Callas, Schwarzkopf, Fischer Dieskau and all of the greats. I happen to think this is one of the most thrilling pieces of vocal theatre ever recorded. I would demure on your choice of adjectives - raising the chest voice is not exactly "cheap" or easy, as these have several ancillary connotations - it is immensely risky for the performer, potentially costly for a career and very few are even able to do it. Perhaps vulgar is closer to it? I could see why people would level that accusation, but I personally love it and find the whole recording wonderful. It seems to me you only listened to the ending as the extreme chest voice only occurs in the last few minutes - before that we get an extraordinarily finely sung recit and aria.
I would also suggest that the mania of the final scene makes more sense and is more moving in the context of the delicate rendering of the recit and aria "col sorriso" that preceded it - the whole role has been carefully thought out. Again, fine if you hate it, but taste is not an absolute. and when you say she never had an understanding of bel canto- what do you think of this? She got spectacular reviews for it from the Italian and international press ua-cam.com/video/LfzqW5h8qsU/v-deo.html She never compares herself to jazz greats - she says she admires them immensely and enjoys singing jazz but she always humble about her talent level in that domain, and merely says they were an influence.
Great moments of opera So well put! 👏👏👏 Not many people have Flemings intellect. It´s a bit like the critics on Bernstein and his physical way of conducting. That was just who he was and it came from inside. His Mahler interpr. came from his own feeling of connectedness and was true to his soul. Not a self-indulgent gene in neither him or Fleming. I can understand how it may come across that way if that´s what you want to hear, but with a fairly open mind and loving things beautiful and expressive this is just Heaven❣️❣️❣️
this is really sad she was she has such a beautiful lyric voice. Renee please stop! it's hurting my ears. lyric soprano lyric soprano hear me when I'm talking girl give it up.
Great moments of opera. I knew the date of this performance excetera. I actually recorded it on audio cassette. I posted a comment previously and not giving advice. I've always liked your voice from day one. so please Great Moments in Opera? debating this is futile. I would play the audio cassette over and over hoping to here some sunshine. and all I got was rain. I'm quite aware have this performance date. let's not flog a dead horse enjoy all her previous postings. I'm quite aware that she has retired from Opera performances and it's doing recitals. certainly one of the greatest lyric voices to come out of the United States. I like someone also said in a previous comment. if she would have been born in Europe Etc. she might have pulled this off. hey beautiful lyrical voice and trying to sing bel canto towards the end of your career is always suicide. so my friend great moments in Opera. I respect and you're entitled to your opinion. but I was not giving Renee advice. it was simply a comment. your fellow Opera loving fan. have a nice day AGA PE. and take a Xanax please lol just kidding. I will always love Renee's beautiful voice. and all those great performances she gave at the Met and around the world. but deep respect for your opinion. Arnold Bourbon Amaral.
Arnold Amaral ah no worries! I was making a joke. Glad to have you here. Just you said "hear me when I'm talking" which is why I thought it was advice to her!
Now I understand why Renee Fleming is so admired and appreciated as an operatic soprano. This is just gorgeous. Bravissima!
For me, the greatest singer of the last 4 decades. There are loads more of her rare live recordings on this channel. If you like The bel canto repertoire, try the Armida finale or the Lucrezia Borgia finale, otherwise, Korngold, Strauss, Mozart, Massenet etc etc! Enjoy
There's infinite beauty in walking along the verge of the precipice, and not falling into it, in the abandonment, in piloting one's boundaries! Brava, La Fleming, never expected that of her
I have never heard such expressions being pushed completely to the limit of the voice and the music ! This is totally satisfying, and I don’t care about who sang this better, I think it doesn’t get any better than this. Fabulous!
Agreed! Thanks for the comment.
Forse e' meglio che pensi a chi l'ha cantato meglio. E non suggerisco nessun nome.
Thank you for posting this great scene ! I've never heard it before. She is one of my favorite sopranos. I can't for the life of me ... why do some composers put the voice through this kind of trauma ? Fleming doesn't sound that good with those unpolished high notes ... but after this performance and _Armida,_ she returns to Strauss and sings beautifully, his music. It is a statement to her vocal talent ... I think.
For those who have asked me privately: this video was posted as its own blogpost with a negative comment on parterre, linking only to the final cabaletta, which is why there are so many negative comments on here (one assumes people who dislike it this much would have been unlikely to find it in the first place since few seem to be fans of Fleming in general). No complaint from me, I welcome the debate and think the recording stands for itself. I still love it!
Beautiful! a tour de force.
The number of people absolutely PRESSED about this performance in these comments! This is excellent theater and I think Bellini himself would've recognized that.
Nice comment! thanks :)
it's a shame that didn't film this for release because we don't have enough videos of renee fleming singing bel canto mad scenes.
Yes it's true! Maybe a bootleg will emerge...
I would never have guessed she would do well with this role. I expected it to be sung all quietly and carefully. This was a revelation, and I'm glad my expectations were really off. Thanks for this.
Essa gravação é um momento inesquecível de demonstração da extensão vocal de um soprano completo...Parabéns a todos nós!
Honestly, I have heard this scena performed by so many great great singers. Sadly, one always compares the sopranos to La Divina Callas and also the sopranos sing it in the Callas way. Why would you listen to someone who sings it is the Callas way when you can listen to Callas. Fleming does it the Fleming way, completely different and that is what makes this artist so very great!.
Thank you for your comment! I quite agree!
quite apt! I listen to both La callas and La fleming and their Imogenes are both so similar yet different. They both use their strengths to portray the character to a T. Bravi Tutti
Other people and I will continue to measure Sopranos against the best Soporano ever, Maria Callas. So you want no one to ever be measured against one another? How will you measure musicians? Get a grip.
Complete taffypulling. Fine voice but atrocious musicality.
Sadly, people shouldn't *start* by comparing, but by appreciating
This is amazing! I actually prefer Caballe's 1970 recording to this for sheer perfection, but this is amazing in terms of combining beautiful singing & pathos. Fleming digs deep into her chest voice and then soars to some beautiful top high notes. Brava!!
Very glad you enjoyed it, I also love the pathos of it. Caballe can be wonderful in the Bel Canto rep but I really miss the chest voice which is essential for this scene.
you just don't combine these two types of singing in this Style of Opera from this time period. You might as well put a bottle of ketchup and a jar of mustard into your mash potatoes when just a dash of hot sauce, will do.
Fantastiche: la musica e la Fleming !!
The best singers are as always in the audience....
Craig Hoeftmann haha, you mean the other commenters here?
AMEN!!!!!!!!!
Renee simply KILLS this! This is one of greatest roles.
Some people are such stuffy purists, it's obnoxious. In my opinion, the way Fleming vocally acts is one of the things that makes her so unique and lovable. The fact that she does go outside the bounds of what would be considered "tasteful" and "stylistically" correct are what sets her apart from the cookie cutter mold of every other conventionally good singer. That being said, some of the most divine sounds I've heard on recording came from her. Again, that's my opinion.
dead on..... Fleming = divine
I’ve never put a dislike till now but this is really too much (and I love her)
:( There are hundreds of other Fleming videos on my channel that may be more to your liking.
Being longtime a devoted admirer of the Caballe performance I must confess I am completely shocked by Renee Fleming interpretation. 21 seconds long at ua-cam.com/video/zIFowgpg7wg/v-deo.html - simply fascinating
I have never heard anything like it!
InBoccaChiusa in a good way I hope!
@@greatmomentsofopera7170 non credo...
It's extremely theatrical! Doesn't sound like she had it completely secure in her voice. I admire the vocal risks she takes. Not always the best choices for embellishments. Bel Canto is beautiful singing yes, but it still require drama vocally to bring it to life. Marisa Galvany and Olivia Stapp provide that. Bravo for not taking a boring read of the score that many do. As she matured in this role, embellishment choices changed some
Olivia Stapp vs Renee Fleming? Are you serious. Stapp was a second-rate singer, who was okay in a regional opera company, but out of her league in any major opera company.
There is a tendency these days to
Overdo and to distort the musical phrase for "emotion". And not just in opera. To me, this performance is similar to Bernadette Peters doing Losing My Mind in the most recent broadway revival, or I Dreamed sung by Anne Hathaway in the film of Les Miz. It isnoike they want to wring every drop of e option out, like squeezing a washcloth, bit ultimately, it is far less effective. Just listen (or better, watch) Dorothy Collins sing Losing My Mind. A great artist does the work, internalizes what the song is about and then just sings it, beautifully. Ibdon't hate this performance, but I find it over fussy and less moving than it would have been if she just concentrated on the line and kept it moving, instead of trying to "wring" every phrase.
I couldn’t have put it better xx.
Is this real or a spoof?
Increible, sublime, simplemente maravilloso.¡¡¡
So having not looked at the score, this aria is in Gmajor? That was the original key of Casta Diva
Fmajor...
@dustinpeters5396 Well, Casta Diva is originally in G major. Customarily transposed to F and even further down for certain singers.
Absofreakinlutely Awesome!!!!!!!
Brava Brava Brava!!!!!,_,_
Indipendentemente dei bei suoni come molti di voi ritengono io la trovo eccessiva nell'interpretazione fino a diventare ridicola. Nessun nesso tra testo musica e bel canto. Nessuno vuole fare paragoni ma è impossibile non pensare alla classe interpretativa e musicale della Callas.
I actually find Imogene to be the only role in which I don't much like Callas - not bad of course, but not as imaginative or instantly brilliant as her other recordings. Her acting however in the live video recording of this scene is stunning.
Jean Tsamblacos, non mi pare ci siano bei suoni. E' stupidamente eccessiva e quindi antimusicale e ovviamente volgare. Non si possono fare paragoni perche' non ci sono i presupposti. Ridicola e' dire poco e comunque non avrebbe ne il timbro evocativo ne un fraseggio "all'antica", che in questo caso e' alla base di questo specifico repertorio. Anche in altre produzioni con altri autori, la Fleming e' assolutamente generica, non ha uno stile, una cifra.
@@fabriziomariagarzi5534 non capisco neanch io tutti questi sospiretti. Avrebbe comunque potuto fare un lovoro dignitoso, pure coi mezzi che ha, ma si è sbrodolata e basta qua
@@Tkimba2 , grandi mezzi ( "C'era una volta la Fleming….) ma timbro anonimo/commerciale e la parte interpretativa da centro turistico, villaggio vacanze per ricchi signori...Noi andiamo sempre d'accordo. Ciao Tomba 2.
@@fabriziomariagarzi5534 quasi eh. :)
I love Fleming's voice. But could never tolerate her "over-emoting" everything! So un-Bel Cantoish!
It’s a taste thing. I do understand this criticism. But I much prefer this to under emoting. Think how many completely blank, boring singers there are. Most bel canto performances are a complete snooze fest with voices completely ill equipped to sing the role.
@@greatmomentsofopera7170 I definitely agree with you! Fleming comes much closer to the concept of good Bel Canto singing than anyone else I've heard in the last 30 years! It's like the art has been all but lost in our day, and the few that have tried to keep it going just don't seem to have a grip on it. But I agree...Fleming at least adds depth to it. I love her Armida! Too bad she never did the entire role of Norma. Her Casta Diva is beautiful!
Art Danks yes. She had it in the diary to sing it in 2010 or so, but it would have been too late, as is evidenced by her Met Armidas from that year which are a shadow of her great 1993 performances. Would have been lovely to have had her in a late 90s Norma around the same time as that recording of Casta Diva with Mackerras. And if only she had said yes to Solti in recording Isolde (on record only a la Margaret Price).
I think this was around the time when her mannerisms were let loose. She is in great voice here, but her interpretation is a parody of itself as a result. The over-emoting actually makes the emotions inauthentic, and the embellishments are not within the style and are excessive to the point of stopping the momentum of the piece. She did quite a bit of bel canto around the time she first broke out in the early 1990s, and it was much more tasteful. Her mannerisms were there, but they were in check, so they helped to add a personal touch. As with most things, moderation is key.
lovely ;) Do it exist a dvd of this production?
Angelo Michele .Mazza glad you enjoyed! Sadly no DVD though
Great moments of opera oh God help her what was she thinking at the end of her career. she's trying to pull a Renata Scotto!
Arnold Amaral this wasn’t the end of her career, it was the middle - see the date - 2002.
Great moments of opera I know it was in the middle of her career. I use the microphone when I make a comment so please excuse my typos Etc. I recorded this performance when she performed at the Met and I kept listening to it over and over again the Mad scene Etc. And I really feel bad for her. I go I got so used 2 CABALLE singing this so obviously I was making a comparison. Renee has a beautiful lyrical voice probably one of the best lyrics Sopranos to come out of the United States. All Great opera singers sometimes make bad choices we're all human and so is poor Renee. So please stop picking on her. She will retire soon and will never hear her perform again. Thank you Renee for giving us all those great years of your great lyrical voice. I'm so glad you're good friends with leontyne price. I can imagine the great conversations you two must have. It'll be a sad day when she is gone. The last great diva.
Я хорошо отношусь к мисс Флеминг как к певице. В этой сцене на мой взгляд она явила подлинный и неприкрытый драматизм. В общем и целом мне понравилось. Особенно потому, что у многих певиц мне не хватает этого яростного драматизма и отчаяния. Но ноты??? Что за странная интерпретация🤷♂ Я вполне лояльно отношусь к изменениям авторского музыкального текста, если они направлены на большую выразительность. Но здесь это уже слишком. Так исказить авторский текст, это еще нужно уметь. Да и нужно ли?
Вообще-то все ноты на месте, у неё действительно есть своё видение, как петь. У вас абсолютный слух и поэтому кажется не то. Я люблю джазовые интерпретации и видимо поэтому мне кажется всё ок! 😅 Недавно я читала интервью с Mariella Devia, она отметила что есть всё таки культурные отличия, за океаном считается что belcanto можно петь как verismo, но в Италии ни в коем случае, искажать belcanto по её мнению это error
Su voz es muy especial y aunque la parte de la cabaletta es mejorable se compensa con la cavatina. Entre los comentarios negativos hay demasiada animosidad . Preferir otras versiones está justificado. Pero algunas de las criticas a Renée Fleming muestran una agresividad patológica.
I strongly prefer the Maria callas il Pirata.
Beautiful, but I always got the sense that she was trying TOO hard in this rep. Some of the mannerisms and interpolations are so gauche and overzealous that they almost become ridiculous. When she purely sings and expresses the score it's fabulous, but I feel like she was too conscious of the Callas/Caballe mantle singing this.
The cavatina for example is gorgeous, but the chest notes in the cabaletta are flogged to death. Not musical.
jmiller05 interesting perspective. She is definitely trying very hard and pushing her voice to its absolute limits. However I find the result thrilling, and that high chest register fits the situation so well - the sense of fear is palpable. If you listen to this scene from start to end, the sense of character, atmosphere and story that emerges is quite extraordinary to me. As pure singing people might find it too much, but as drama, character, mood I think Bel Canto has rarely been this viscerally revealing of a person on the edge of an abyss, teetering between order and chaos.
jmiller05 I tend to agree with you. In fact, in all honesty, as much as I love Fleming, I find that she seems to do this with everything she sings...over does the "emoting", both musically and dramatically, to the point where it becomes rather distracting. I would prefer to see her using more subtleties. (Kind of the whole "less is more" type of thought.)
Agreed.
She never had the instrument of caballe or callas. At least she had a more pleasant voice than scotto
I admire her career. Her book. Her thoughts about being an opera singer. Her honesty. And shes an American. A big plus for me . Once a soprano came on the radio and I was blown away. Didnt know it was her. Omg. It was sumptuous. Then you get this mess. So ridiculous.
WHO is conducting? It's FAR, FAR, FAR TOO SLOW! Bad musical direction of a very great voice like Fleming's, though her 'Col Sorriso' is extremely beautiful.
The conductor does not set the tempo, the singer does. Or at least they agree in advance on tempi, but the conduct usually will agree to the tempo the singer wants.
She is very good indeed, although the best Il pirate of all time was Caballe's. But she is amazing also.
Totalmente de acuerdo
J'adore Renee Fleming!!! Que de frissons !!
This is good...there are some...overexaggerrated moments in this which shows me sometimes her acting is more broadway. Fleming is still one of the greatest right behind Callas and like maybe two other singers
Dommage qu'elle aborde le bel canto comme si c'était du vérisme. Ça fait que sa version semble exagérée voire désagréable. Comme elle a la voix, que quelqu'un lui fixe les limites á ne pas franchir.
Very self indulgent! I see why she was booed! And I'm a fan!
Paddy818 she wasn't booed. You can hear the roars of approval at the end of this concert performance. She was booed for Lucrezia Borgia at La Scala by a very small organised group of men - see here ua-cam.com/video/-0WDnTxD2Mw/v-deo.html
Great moments of opera Yes I know it was LaScala and about the paid claques! Like I said, I'm a fan. I even sang with her once. But this is shapeless, sloppy singing. You color within the parameters the composer gives you with great use of rubato and dynamic and tonal shading! This is completely over the top and NOT true bel canto! Please listen to Callas and Caballe to see how it's properly done! Strauss and Mozart rein her in so she's not able to do these sort of shenanigans! That said perhaps seeing her made it a bit more palatable! Not trying to be antagonist, I just found this very irritating because she is in my opinion a great artist!
Paddy818 fine not to like it but you're saying you see why she was booed, and you know it was a different opera, in a different setting/city/situation, 4 whole years before.
I know she's popular but to me Caballe doesn't scratch the surface of the drama, doesn't have the chest voice to support the line and she aspirates the coloratura as always.
Callas is the mistress in this repertoire, an unrepeatable miracle, but Fleming offers a very different view and I'm glad to have both.
Great moments of opera To be specific, yes it was Lucrezia, which by the way I love her recording of the final aria! I'm all for different interpretations but this goes way too far astray! We all have our over the top moments
Paddy, I actually was there in Paris front and center to applaud the diva. This was a remarquable performance in every way and I can tell you if people were crying it was with joy and they were applauding like crazy. No booing whatsoever. The Chatelet theatre has a very small stage and the opera was not acted but only sung. Renée Fleming was standing a mere 4 or 5 meters in front of me the whole time. I did not miss a note. Wonderfully magic.
Mi permetto di esprimere un pensiero, se qualcuno cerca la classe interpretativa con la versione che ne da' Renee Fleming e chi la dirige dovra'volgere lo sguardo altrove, ma se parliamo di teatro e di emozione credo ci sia ben poco da eccepire. La spericolata interpretazione di questo brano trova un climax , non so' se sia la parola piu' adatta, di incredibile efficacia, se avessi avuto la fortuna di assistere a questa performance non credo che sarei rimasto attonito ma avrei partecipato al dramma esistenziale della protagonista piangendo in silenzio.A me piace per quello che mi offre a livello di emozioni aldila' della licenze che si prende!
Absolutely divine.... like an 1830's prima donna come to life..............
naysayers are clueless, soul-less.
Thanks for the comment. Nice to find like minded souls across the years and nations!
Naysayers have taste. She is beyond dreadful.
As much as I love Renee Fleming and her foray into bel canto, I can't love much of this. It's actually painful listening to this.
Didn't know this was here on YT. Controversial is mild. Putting aside the distasteful mannerisms and choices that creep in here and there, there is indeed some lovely Bel canto and technically secure singing from her, with beautiful, long cantilenas. Some of the embellishments are less impressive and often embarrassing. Too bad the conductor didn't help her make wise musical choices. Dramatic impact, sincerity and intuition at the Callas level are absent of course but, OK, that's what we all have to live and contend with. To her credit, at least she seemed to try to do something individual with the role even if it didn't pan out in the end so that the sum is less than the parts. And Fleming of course had then a luxurious voice. But consider the absolute blank and wretch that is "Met star" Angela Meade and, well, the artistic situation/crisis is worse than dismal.
Para mi il pirata mejor cantado es de Caballé. En la grabación de su concierto en la Salle Pleyel de París se puede ver su interpretación incomparable.
Adorando a Fleming, en este papel, la encuentro excesiva
This was really over the top in terms of the drama. Nevertheless, a hair raising performance. Brava Fleming😘
Agreed! Try her Il Pirata duet too - gorgeous!
I respect that Ms. Fleming took a chance with such an individualized interpretation. However bel canto it is not. Much like Sutherland she pulls, pushes, and tugs at the vocal line. One of the defining characteristics of bel canto is the smooth transmission of sound. Callas does this to perfection while imbuing her tone with a multitude of colors to express the emotion and feeling of both the score and the libretto. Yet she never distorts or exaggerates the vocal line as Fleming and Sutherland do. In fact I barely recognize this Pirata scene at all. It feels as though it is broken up into a 100 unrelated pieces. Fleming forgets this is “a singing” and not “a reading” - the music must come first as with Callas and the interpretation must serve and follow the musical line. This is the linchpin of bel canto. Fleming has essentially rewritten the score to suit her (overly) theatrical desires. Just because she has a beautiful voice does not mean she is engaging in beautiful singing. Fleming in this piece, and to a similar if lesser extent Sutherland in most of her bel canto roles, sound as though they are choking on and sputtering out their words while pushing and pulling at the vocal line as though it were a piece of taffy. If anything Fleming and Sutherland offer up a bastardized, degraded form of bel canto singing in much the same way that the Mannerist period in painting left us with an exaggerated and diluted interpretation of the painting principles of the High Renaissance. If you want to hear a smooth vocal line that conveys the variety and complexity of emotions intended by the composer’s markings, then please listen to the live recording of Callas interpreting Lucia’s mad scene under von Karajan’s baton in Berlin, the last 20 or so minutes of Callas’ 1955 Norma at La Scala beginning with “in mia man,” and Callas’ extended scene with the elder Germont in the Lisbon or La Scala Traviata. This is bel canto singing at its best.
Agreed
Very well said. The theatre in Bel Canto has to come through the music. Callas excelled at this with her precision and taste for the style, juxtaposition of colors, registers, etc.
Renee's "Funesto" was completely ridiculous. I don't even mind so much that she decided to speak it rather than sing but the way she said it just sounded so fake. Callas talked about practicing speaking her roles but I'm sure she did so in a natural sounding manner.
Yes Callas had a good voice for about 5 years... and was a great and classy musician however she ruined her voice singing large repertoire that wasn't correct for her coloratura voice. Hasn't Fleming already sang for 30 years on the international stage? Didn't sutherland do the same? Fleming still shows no sign of a wobble or tremolo and still has a steady tone. How many others can you say that about?
@@jimbuxton2187 Let’s be clear … Callas was singing well at the start of her career in the mid-1940s in Greece through her last recording, which was Carmen I believe in 1964. Quite a bit more than five years of great singing. I’m also tired of hearing about the Callas wobble - during these years when the vast majority of her records were made it’s rarely present, period. It pops up now and again of course, but it simply is not nearly as prominent as it’s made out to be. Furthermore there is no such thing as a “correct repertoire” for singers classically trained in the bel canto method of voice production. The whole point of bel canto training is to allow the singer to have complete technical mastery of his or her instrument thereby enabling that person to sing through the entire operatic repertoire. If the voice is thought of as the most flexible and expressive of instruments, then as with any instrumentalist in an orchestra who must play all kinds of music, a singer by the same reasoning should be able to sing all kinds of music. Callas firmly believed this to be true and said as much.
No one ever wrote in stone that to have a great career one must have a long career, although longevity is of course preferable for other reasons. I don’t care if Sutherland had a career twice as long as that of Callas. Sutherland is an exponent of a debased bel canto technique. A hallmark of great bel canto singing is articulate, clear annunciation of the libretto and a firm vocal line. Sutherland was more than occasionally lacking in this department, especially in the second half of her career. In my opinion she should have retired 20 years earlier than she did. In a 100 years Callas will still top the list of the greats while I’m not so sure Sutherland and Fleming will be as revered.
One last point, I think opera goers, especially Americans, are enamored of beautiful pretty voices and big high notes and more high notes and then even more! Bel canto is not about having a beautiful or showy voice, it’s about singing beautifully - in other words, singing that respects the vocal line by being firm and smooth in production, singing that embellishes with restraint and taste and within the parameters of the score penned by the composer, singing that sounds the words so they are recognized and understood as such, and needless to say singing that demonstrates complete mastery of all of the technical aspects of the medium thereby giving the singer complete mastery of his/her instrument to meet any and all vocal challenges.
Substituting screeches, screams and sighs for actual notes is the antithesis of true bel canto. At some points Fleming' truly beautiful voice peeks through the exaggerations of tempos, emotions, and sound that she seems to think are the equivalent of true bel canto. Perhaps with a conductor who would have reined in her excesses and who actually understood bel canto she could have produced a great performance. Here this is just an immensely self-indulgent demonstration of her voice with no relations to the composer or the true style of the era.
I adore it. She’s going right to the limit here - it’s the most convincing portrait of Imogene’s paroxysms I’ve ever heard, with an immensely disturbing atmosphere created by the voice, from beauty to brutality, nostalgia to terror. I understand it’s not in line with what purists want, but Fleming has taken a major risk here and it will not please everyone.
Just to note, the scream at 2:55 which I think you’re referring it to is marked in the score: con grido, which means with a shout or scream. Some artists have ignored Bellini’s Intention here, but this is not a “substitution”, this is faithfulness to the score.
@@greatmomentsofopera7170 The artists who feel a more "organic" sense of rubato here might ignore the con grido at the beginning and take that suggested energy to put more energy toward other parts of the performance. This is along the idea that when you see two fermata close to each other you must choose one and put that extra time somewhere else, as a singer. When there's a cavatina and cabaletta to worry about -- all of the suggested impulses of energy and screams must be take as a whole and in measure, I feel.
@@matthewbrown17 I understand the general point, but it's written directly above the note, so I think it's what Bellini wanted.
I completely agree with your comment! I've never been a fan of La Fleming but she should definitely avoid Bel Canto.
Renee you are a wonderful singer but I feel there are too many embellishments...… I prefer M Caballe
I think she is great, brava!
Worst moments of the opera: 1# Bruto Canto per Renata Flemming.
Lovely voice, but over egged, so much over ornamentation in the last passages that the effect is lost.
I love that comment from whatever 456 I'm crying I'm laughing so hard.. YOU KNOW who is writing it don't you? Why Leontyne Price of course LOL!!! Or one of Fleming's other "competitors" ha ha ha!!!
S
@@jenylogan1 !
It was wonderful until she got completely crazy.
Haha, glad you enjoyed some of it. But isn't that what is happening in the scene? Someone descending into complete insanity. It's a dramatic depiction of a psychotic break.
My total respect to Mrs. Fleming, but once you have heard like I did in the 70's to Caballe's IL Pirate, I simply can't say that I like Rene in this role...Rene or even Callas, no one will sing again this role like Monserrat did.
I know she’s many people’s favourite. For me she can’t be mine because of the lack of low notes in this role and the aspirated coloratura. I don’t mind being in a minority!
Totalmente de acuerdo
Two kitchen sinks, every mode known to music, and vocal folds flapping against the laws of physics were not enough for this performance. Bellini who? This is an exciting hoot.
Haha! She pushed the mad scene to the limit…not just a canary for sure, you hear the extremity of psychological journey the character is undertaking - on the edge of the abyss…
Its a Lullaby....I cant ear one of the beautiful aria of Pirata singed like this........terrific!
Elle en fait trop...et elle s'écoute chanter. Très bien chanté bien sûr. Mais elle perd de vue l'urgence et le style.
I love all these critics, who apparently think they can judge one of the greatest stars negatively. Wahahah
If you sing in public, for money, you will always face criticism, that is a performers life, get over it!
@@jenniferlogan4914 by those who know nothing
Wth... Crazy crap.
I love Fleming. She is definitely one of the greatest voices of this century. She indeed produces some beautiful sound here and there. But, this is a travesty of Bellini's writing. She is all over the place. She is trying to do all, but somehow ends up doing so little RIGHT. I mean seriously!! What the hell is that octave drop at 13:00!? Is she saying, "OK, I can't sing Abigaile, but you can't have a glorious career without an octave drop. Imma do it in Pirata!" Still worse, she chops the vocal line into pieces, sings out of style, adds unnecessary/presumptuous things. I believe that Il Pirata, especially the mad scene, contains some of the most beautiful lines Bellini ever composed. Her voice DOES NOT dance on the notes. It's more like the piece is trying to manage the voice, rather than the opposite.
Ali Offe thanks for the comment. It's definitely her most controversial role - some people love it and some hate it as I wrote in the video description. Is it just the cabaletta you object to? What did you think of col sorriso at 6:10 or so?
To be honest, I really don't know what to do with this rendition. Maybe i should give her more time! That section you pointed out is actually quite good. The voice is opulent, and as I pointed out in my earlier comment she produces a beautiful sound, too. Maybe it's the lack of weight in the voice required for this particular assoluta piece. But then again, Caballe lacks that as well, and she does not have Fleming's chesty tones, either. However, she is marvellous in this music. There is a certain technical achievement in this rendition. Then again, Fleming understands the voice better than many so-called bel canto specialists. I don't think she is at home in this repertoire, though. I listened to Callas' col sorriso d'innocenza and Fleming's in a row. Callas' voice magically dances on the notes, she sings the piece with remarkable legato and breath control biting into the words, shaping phrases in a painting-with-the-voice manner while Fleming is obviously having troubles in managing her voice although she is vocally in a much better shape. Maybe it's the schooling or the lack of intellectual process before the actual rehearsals. I feel like Fleming would have been a much greater Imogene under, say, Serafin's tutoring. I also read your reply to another comment concerning the Armida finale. Fleming's Armida was a YUGE surprise for me, i should say. It is textbook, which again shows us Fleming is one of the greatest.
Ali Offe glad you like the Armida. I think it's her greatest bel canto achievement, truly a miracle. Easily the greatest since Callas and there are some things I even prefer to the Callas.
It's the only true Assoluta role she essayed (Borgia and Pirata are both semi assoluta roles according to the assoluta book that one may or may not accept - the requirements of all three are pretty ridiculous. Look on my channel for the Borgia finale too - somewhere between the two approaches you've already heard).
Comparing anyone to Callas is a bit unfair, but no one will be surprised that she is the mistress in Bellini. With Caballe I miss the chest tones and in general find her middle voice old sounding somehow. Plus aspirated coloratura is always a major turn off for me.
Ali Offe and Jesus there would be an idea - Fleming with Serafin - I wish we could have heard it!
I think she has a great voice as well. Her voice is not suited for the role. Many opera singers make same mistakes it doesn't make them terrible singers Etc we're all human. This was in the middle of her career but The Beat Goes On and she kept on singing and delivering incredible performances.
BRAVISSIMA RENEE
Fleming is as great here as Sutherland, Sills, Callas, or Caballé...
To me, she surpasses MC in the opening recit, easily....
I admire miss Flemings tone , in general , but this is over-egged in the extreme, and the tasteless over ornamentation and strange descending scales, not to mention the exaggerated chest voice , obscures the music, sometimes less is more. This is from without, not within. A bit of a parody.
I fully understand that some people find it too much, but I love it I must say. I find it electrifying, and think it has an immense sense of atmosphere and a terrifying sense of danger, perfect for the drama. Fleming is right on the edge, which seems absolutely right for the character. Do you not even like the Cavatina, taken to luminous, crystalline limits?
Purtroppo il museo degli orrori. Gusto americano da Oklahoma. Pare che la Callas non sia mai esistita.
eccelsa!!!
Épouvantable. La voix et la technique sont tip top hélas le style, les ports de voix sont dégoulinants voire insupportables. J'étais dans la salle. J'ai cru péter un câble. Pardon, j'ai péter un câble. Et le public applaudissait... Insupportable.
what's with 2:55? ew
The score is marked “con grido” which means with a scream, cry, or yell.
Miss Fleming never had any idea of what belcanto is, or what it should be. This is rather close to "Grand gignol" ! Unbearable !
angalafan Imogene is definitely her most controversial role, with the widest range of critical evaluations. To say she had no idea about bel canto is bizarre though. Have you heard her in the Armida finale? ua-cam.com/video/LfzqW5h8qsU/v-deo.html
And you do?
Artistic. Committed. Intelligent. However. I can't listen to it. It gets too ugly. Maybe thats the point. Still. I couldn't wait for it to be over.
Interesting, thanks so much for your comment!
Artists take risks. I understand that. Sills took on 3 queens and ended her career but her artistry was amazing . Maybe Fleming sees opera as a restrictive dying medium and would like to see it stay afloat . She certainly got us all chattering, didn't she?
You could turn it off at any time...
@@glgree1 like I said. Ugly
From first note to last, this is pure fakery in the worst possible taste imaginable. She resorts to throaty and constricted barking, growling and shouting -- the cheapest and easiest tricks in her vocal bag of schtick-- because she had absolutely no understanding of or ability to deploy the detailed and subtle complexity of bel canto style and vocal production to transmit the composer's intention-- including "madness".
She loves to compare herself to the jazz greats, but even Sarah Vaughn with a head cold new that the greatest effect was achieved by bending and shaping the musical line within the constraints of a frame, that's how the dramatic tension is built and released. Fleming occasionally produced beautiful sound, but rarely anything other than mediocre musicianship at best.
whatever456 Haha, don't sugar the pill, say what you really think!
This is a textbook example of a guardian of the Apollonian, "classical" sensibility (with a hyper developed super ego (turned outwards)) meeting Dionysian, "baroque" expression. Historical examples like this could be multiplied into the thousands. The confines of good taste and expression are always in dialogue or perhaps more accurately in combat.
Your opinion is welcome here, but I would suggest you take as evidence that the roaring cheers you hear at the end suggest that this speaks very directly and importantly to a very large number of classical music fans. Art does not exist in a vacuum and instead exists in relation to us as humans in our cultural and even biological needs. Even if the singing rulebook were as rigid as you suggest it is, the reaction you hear should immediately throw into question the role of taste (or at least your conception of taste) in great music making - is it a guideline for the best conditions for expression and moving communications, or is it the highest goal, is it a descriptive assessment of the best past performances or is it a normative standard by which things should be judged? Should Stravinsky, Strauss, Mozart, Beethoven, Van Gogh, Berlioz, have curbed their excesses when their critics repeatedly accused them of bad taste? Think of Strauss's Salome as an extreme example - the vulgarity of it is something we clearly want, and even need. It is immensely expressive of important aspects of humanity otherwise it wouldn't be so successful with so many highly cultivated people, even if it is in poor taste.
For interpretative artists the waters are even less clear... is the artist's duty to the composer or audience or both, and does this mean that only HIP performances are valid or not, and how can we know what the composer's intention was - was it self expression or transcendent expression, or a vehicle for the performer, pleasure for the audience, or a mixture of these, and did they want the artist to embody their art and personalise it or did they want them to be a pristine virtuoso machine through which their ideas passed... the questions multiply into the millions, and each interpretative artist finds their own way. The marketplace of live performance then selects some performers to be stars or superstars, while the majority are neglected. If Bellini had said he liked this would you change your mind about it? What if Bellini had said that your favourite artist in his music was not what he liked - would that change things for you?
The relentless bashing of Fleming by a small coterie of haters cannot make one ignore the fact that she is the most popular soprano of the last quarter century. This is not an accident or due to some sort of marketing ploy - to maintain that level of popularity over that period she is clearly speaking to a lot of people at some incredibly deep level - even if there are also those who cannot stand her. The same is true of Callas, Schwarzkopf, Fischer Dieskau and all of the greats.
I happen to think this is one of the most thrilling pieces of vocal theatre ever recorded. I would demure on your choice of adjectives - raising the chest voice is not exactly "cheap" or easy, as these have several ancillary connotations - it is immensely risky for the performer, potentially costly for a career and very few are even able to do it. Perhaps vulgar is closer to it? I could see why people would level that accusation, but I personally love it and find the whole recording wonderful. It seems to me you only listened to the ending as the extreme chest voice only occurs in the last few minutes - before that we get an extraordinarily finely sung recit and aria.
I would also suggest that the mania of the final scene makes more sense and is more moving in the context of the delicate rendering of the recit and aria "col sorriso" that preceded it - the whole role has been carefully thought out. Again, fine if you hate it, but taste is not an absolute.
and when you say she never had an understanding of bel canto- what do you think of this? She got spectacular reviews for it from the Italian and international press ua-cam.com/video/LfzqW5h8qsU/v-deo.html
She never compares herself to jazz greats - she says she admires them immensely and enjoys singing jazz but she always humble about her talent level in that domain, and merely says they were an influence.
Dear oh dear, this really shows that even one of the greatest opera divas of her generation will suffer from nasty remarks from whoever! Brava Renee!
Great moments of opera So well put! 👏👏👏 Not many people have Flemings intellect. It´s a bit like the critics on Bernstein and his physical way of conducting. That was just who he was and it came from inside. His Mahler interpr. came from his own feeling of connectedness and was true to his soul. Not a self-indulgent gene in neither him or Fleming. I can understand how it may come across that way if that´s what you want to hear, but with a fairly open mind and loving things beautiful and expressive this is just Heaven❣️❣️❣️
Great moments of opera , you are too exhaustingly long winded to make a point. You like this, you don’t like this, very simple “a chacun son gout”.
The voice is too light and too tiny to sing anything in the Italian repertoire.
this is really sad she was she has such a beautiful lyric voice. Renee please stop! it's hurting my ears. lyric soprano lyric soprano hear me when I'm talking girl give it up.
Arnold Amaral as it says in the title, the date of this performance is 2002, so you're 16 years late for giving advice!
Great moments of opera. I knew the date of this performance excetera. I actually recorded it on audio cassette. I posted a comment previously and not giving advice. I've always liked your voice from day one. so please Great Moments in Opera? debating this is futile. I would play the audio cassette over and over hoping to here some sunshine. and all I got was rain. I'm quite aware have this performance date. let's not flog a dead horse enjoy all her previous postings. I'm quite aware that she has retired from Opera performances and it's doing recitals. certainly one of the greatest lyric voices to come out of the United States. I like someone also said in a previous comment. if she would have been born in Europe Etc. she might have pulled this off. hey beautiful lyrical voice and trying to sing bel canto towards the end of your career is always suicide. so my friend great moments in Opera. I respect and you're entitled to your opinion. but I was not giving Renee advice. it was simply a comment. your fellow Opera loving fan. have a nice day AGA PE. and take a Xanax please lol just kidding. I will always love Renee's beautiful voice. and all those great performances she gave at the Met and around the world. but deep respect for your opinion. Arnold Bourbon Amaral.
Arnold Amaral ah no worries! I was making a joke. Glad to have you here. Just you said "hear me when I'm talking" which is why I thought it was advice to her!
Great moments of opera. NO JUST AN OBSERVATION/Comment. Rene will be missed as a GREAT LYRIC SOPRANO. LATER DAYS ARNOLD Bourbon Amaral