Never in my life did I think that retro computer kits would be a thing, over 40 years after they were originally released, but I'm glad. I can show my daughter the 8-bit computers I grew up with as she looks at lines of code and at simple looking games (slightly bemused) and yet having played like Space Invaders, she returns to them later on, as she finally understands gaming concepts like playability meaning more than something looking good or sounding good. So far it's all been on emulations so something running on a PC or tablet means it's still attached to today's technology but a board and chips shows how old computers were. The beginnings of affordable home computing is a subject today's tech nerds need to delve into to understand it and it's a fusion of generations who enjoyed it long ago and get to enjoy it again. 4:49 - I noticed the board label 'tynemouth software mini pet V1.44' and then googled out of curiosity and found that the company is just under 5 miles away from where I live.
I got my first computer in 1995, a variation on the PowerMac 6100. I still wanted a Compact Mac to hang onto and play around with some older stuff from the late 80s/early 90's that wouldn't run on that machine. Never really got into Apple II though. Played around with it a bit, but felt a bit too basic for me and never really had the desire to go back to it.
It sounds like you're reaching. Hardly anyone grew up with a PET. They just were not ever meant to be in the home for kids. Literally nobody was asking for this computer to be made. Being a PET, it is essentially DOA. They are no good for games and nobody would ever use one today for any kind productivity or even as a terminal to an internet based BBS. It is an expensive piece of kit where the best experience you will have with it is soldering it and then troubleshooting where your mistakes were.
I find these have still charm, no x86 pc has, that is both software and electronics is easy enough to "fix yourself", ie. troubleshoot problems, which is infinite power for parent like you. I find , when we had 486 pc at home, missing out something of this "charm", as C+assembly in DOS isnt same as programming these machines. It doesnt give same learning experience, confidence and joy. I never had amiga so I cannot compare those, I know some people are die hard amiga fans.
I really appreciate how you narrate your mistakes and setbacks. It is such a good representation of what the work is really like that it makes it a great tool for beginners to understand the mindset
That reminds me of the days of typing in code from magazines... and some of the fonts were not the greatest for telling what was 0, O or Q, or 1, l and L.
@Todd I don't remember if I did type in any out of COMPUTE! or not, maybe it was. I re-coded the logic for the Reversi game, as it wasn't challenging enough for me. I did find that COMPUTE! had an ST Reversi game, but the one I was using had Atari 400/800, TI-99/4A, C64, VIC20, and I think Timex/Sinclair code, all in the one article.
He was probably in a rush for the video, would make sense for him to invest in a workspace so he can work more consistently on kits without worrying about missing connections or solder bridges.
@@amirpourghoureiyan1637 Yea I can see the logic in that. But since the chips already came apart from the sockets it wouldn't be all that much work to just connect the meter. Blowing all chips will take way more time. However, I am sure that the 8-Bit-Guy knows his stuff, it might not be that obvious to all people watching this video. It would be a devastating experience for someone who saved up some money to buy this product and see all the components go up in flames.
@@basvisscher934 Yeah, I brought a Spectrum ZX81 kit and socketed all the chips so I could power the board before inserting them to check that the power was going to the right pins
@@basvisscher934 tbh I'm sure people who want to make their own PET would have some electrical knowledge considering it's known more for it's utility and historical value than for games like the later Commodore machines. In the case of casual users though, a lot of caution and double-checking is a good measure when tackling a kit with similar level of risk.
Wow, what a flashback to times of old. I was a software engineer working on the military UNIVAC computer, the AN/UYK-7 at the Naval Underwater Systems Center in Newport, Rhode Island, and writing "The Inventor's Sketchpad" column for Interface Age Magazine when I bought my first personal computer, the original Commodore PET. I ordered the one with just 4K of memory ($600) but several weeks later got notified that they weren't making that version anymore because everyone was asking for the extra 4K upgrade which cost another $200!! I accepted that, grudgingly. It was a fun little machine.
@@aelecx9083 you knos this computer freaking released in 1977 and this pet kit it's just for diy for fun and in 1977 commodore pet was cutting edge and expansive so it's really awesome for his school to buy it
Fun fact(s): the Commodore PET was the first home microcomputer late Nintendo president Satoru Iwata cut his teeth on, while he was an intern at Commodore of Japan. NEC got into the home micro business & ostensibly ran Commodore out of the country, after which Iwata went on to found a homebrew computer club for fellow hobbyists that later incorporated as HAL Laboratory (of Kirby, Mother, & Smash Bros. fame).
8:32 This is probably why they used the Atmel. They're great little chips to use to replace custom IC's in a project like this. Cheap as chips, plentiful, and can be programmed to duplicate the functionality of rare, old or custom chips, while extending the functionality of the original system. 22:32 I think this kind of custom hackery is EXACTLY what these kinds of kit projects are intended to stimulate.
yes. and because they also come from Microchip now, it is also a good option to look at the dsPIC33EV. it is fully 5V compatible and runs with 70MHz and 16 bit. but i have to say that emulating a video chip is a crazy achievement. i don't think that it is possible with the c64 VIC-II. but never say never. maybe with some crazy dma trickery?
@@stefanweilhartner4415 In this case it's apparently subbing the 6545 CRT Controller chip, possibly the whole raster output system. Actually, I wonder if it might be related to the dual ported RAM? If both the CPU and 6545 are capable of accessing the RAM at the same time in this reimplementation it might be capable of running faster than 1mhz: Would an original 6545 be able to keep up?
@@stefanweilhartner4415 yep. The PET usually allows alternate cycle access between the video generator and the CPU. If I get what the dual port ram is doing correctly, it seems like both the CPU and video generation could run synchronously, so long as both the CRTC and CPU can keep up.
@@TheTurnipKing The dual port ram is needed because the atmel chip does not have an external memory bus like the 6502, so it can't share a single port ram. It needs to 'bit-bang' one on its dedicated port.
@@21Trainman Not only that, but it would take plenty of heat off that 5V regulator. It should be a full-bridge rectifier - it’d present the 5V regulator with about 7V worst case, so any reasonably LDO would do the job with 2V drop-off available for it.
@@absurdengineering Good point - I can’t imagine it’d draw enough power to cause problems for the diodes or their surrounding area, so it could only improve things.
@@AmoyamoyamoyaUA-cam You could even easily build one out of 4 discrete diodes, and to really make sure it's flat, connect a small capacitor at the end.
re concern about selling the Commander X-16 as a kit: You should turn it into a proper learning tool, especially now that many in the audience will not have experience with this anymore. Give step by step instructions with details and rationale like you mentioned in the video of doing the sockets first; but also include *checklists* of Q/A checking along the way. Design it so it can be tested electrically, as much as possible. Tell them to check the power before putting the chips in, etc. Finally, make it a WIKI site so that people can add their own notes and experiences and post solutions to problems that are found in the wild.
Agreed, I grew up in the 90's and didn't really know about these old systems until adulthood but I still find them quite fascinating and think it may be a good idea to learn coding on them. I don't have a lot kit experience but I have assembled a few and I've picked up a few things from watching UA-camrs. BigClive has a device that holds PCB's in place while he solders which he apparently picked up many years ago, if I knew where to find one (and it didn't cost too much) I'd get it.
Indeed. Unwanted shorts between adjacent pins and to ground (particularly of the power rails) are something that can and should be checked during the soldering process. A well chosen set of continuity checks will catch a lot of the common problems and not take very long at all; if you're worried about inexperienced kit builders you can just supply explicit instructions for those.
It would be nice if a modern coding language were ported to the system, I'm not sure if the 6510 CPUs were capable enough to get the C language working on it but something familiar to Pi users like Python would be a nice thing for students and hobbyists.
@@amirpourghoureiyan1637 The 6502 is poorly suited to C, but that of course hasn't stopped people from building a C compiler for it anyway. CC65 (cc65.github.io/) has been available for decades, and is of very high quality.(Disclosure: I've contributed a very tiny amount of code to the VIC-20 libraries for it.)
@@Curt_Sampson Awesome, they should include that with a beginners bundle, would be great to see if the X16 would fare any better than the early Commodore line-up
@aprofondir actual PETs are 40 year old antiques and replacement components are extremely difficult to source for the most part. The MiniPET on the other hand is just off the shelf freely available components.
Regarding the spacebar - you could have dissasemble two cherry switches, remove the spring and contact leaf and just use them as stabilizers - therefore making middle switch only one that actually works. That would make it not very stiff and should well stabilise it :)
What is totally awesome: how you said on one hand there were probably more pets out there than functional keyboards...and it sounds like that problem just got solved :D
To fix your keycap issue, you may want to look into DSA, XDA, MDA, NP, or OSA style keycaps, as they have completely uniform keys. The set you have is an OEM style set and they keys are going to be sculpted for ergonomics. Cherry and SA style sets will have the same sculpted design as the OEM set that you have. With the DSA, XDA, etc keycaps, you can have any key you like at any location without keys being taller or shorter than the others around it
Good Guys PCBWay - not sponsoring the video but still providing you with free, awesome and quick turn-around PCB's for the video. That's the best kind of free advertising they deserve to help bring projects like this forward with the benefit of helping people repair old systems with dead keyboards. This just solidifies my chances of buying stuff from them if I ever need to design and prototype a PCB for a project, with high quality and quick turn-around of the boards.
I learnt to code in Basic on a Commodore Pet when at I attended Salford University in the early 1980's. This video brought back some great memories. Thanks.
@@EvilSandwich BASIC had its place, but these days the most commonly found language in learn to code courses is probably Python - as used, for example, on Raspberry Pi. Those working on embedded systems will typically use C, perhaps using the Arduino or mbed environments initially. The first rudiments of programming are sometimes taught using visual coding environments like Microsoft MakeCode (e.g. on BBC micro:bit hardware). BASIC made sense 'back in the day', but suffers from lack of standardisation in areas such as flow control and lexical scoping. Graphics primitives are dialect specific, as are any library or object orientated features. These limitations together with the wealth of pedagogical material already out there for alternatives such as Python means BASIC is unlikely to make a comeback. The last company to push BASIC heavily was probably Microsoft with Visual Basic, but traditional Visual Basic was declared a legacy product in 2008 and development stopped with Visual Basic 6.0. Visual Basic .NET is still actively developed, but is a fully object-orientated language that doesn't have the deterministic execution of traditional Visual Basic. C# is perhaps more popular than Visual Basic .NET for .NET development, though the popularity of these two languages seems to wax and wane. Realistically, traditional BASIC is a legacy language these days, just as 8 bit microprocessors are legacy products these days. Low end 32 bit microcontrollers are so cheap now that there is little reason not to select a 32 bit chip unless using DIP packages, 5V logic level compatibility, reuse of existing code assets and/or shaving every penny off the BOM cost steers you towards an 8 bit chip. I have fond memories of my journey with 8 bit equipment but I haven't powered on my ZX Spectrum or BBC Master in years (and would expect them to need some recapping and other hardware maintenance to use them again). I certainly would not spend the money on something like the Mini PET, wonderful as it undoubtedly is for those who want a 'new' PET. If I wanted a 'new' 8 bit, 16 bit or early 32 bit computer to use for legacy system software, I'd probably go for an FPGA based solution if software emulation was inadequate. If you want to buy something to code on, you can buy a Raspberry Pi or similar device for something like a quarter of the cost of the Mini PET kit, power it with a redundant phone charger (so long as it has sufficient output), hook it up to your television using HDMI, connect an inexpensive wireless keyboard and perhaps also a mouse and you have all you need. The Mini PET really isn't a learn to code tool - there is little point in most people learning about the limitations and idiosyncracies of systems originally designed over 40 years ago.
@@DavidWood2 Not everyone wants to learn programming to make a career out of it. Some people just want to explore and play around for fun. That being the case, a simple to understand language that can teach the rudiments of programming is just as valid as learning some variation of C or Java etc. Modern computers are daunting, huge layers of abstraction, requiring various bloated 'libraries' to access their complicated user interfaces etc. It's easy to be distracted or put off by that, and many modern languages just aren't ideal for learning the very basics. Who cares if the language isn't a modern 'standard'? C, C++, C#, Java, Python, Perl and Lua are all different to each other anyway. However, the basic mental processes are transferrable, so once learned, it relatively easy to move on to another language. Would you teach kids to read by giving them Tolkien, Asimov or a car maintenance manual as their first book?
I was watching this video with my 9 month old daughter. She has heard Dave's voice since she was born so she always stops what she's doing and pays attention.
Good call! It would be easy to use those jumpers, which were put in place to allow the polarity change on the barrel jack, to be used to install a power switch!
The irony of asking if I "made it this far" when UA-cam decided to throw not one, not two, but SIX mid-roll ads into your video... UA-cam's getting extremely aggressive with automatic mid-rolls so you may want to take manual control of them, as having to watch an ad or two roughly every 4 minutes makes it really hard to follow along with the things you're talking about.
I’m totally happy to watch ads to support the channel - but the constant and often unskippable mid rolls made this the most painful 26 minutes of 8 bit guy I’ve ever watched. Please please get the midrolls under control - they are really spoiling your great content
@@Ffinity I don't want to have to do that, not for a channel with content I like. Besides, speaking as a creator myself, I know there's manual controls over mid-roll ads, but it was a very recent change which caused the level of automatic ads to go nuts and not everyone's noticed or got informed the change was even happening, so I wanted to comment on this to make sure David's aware of what just happened with regards to automatic ads on his video. :B
i hate to be that person (but im going to be anyway), but when soldering pins you need to put the solder into the pin and pad, not the iron. makes it super quick to just fire through pins
I haven't read all the comments (there's a 1000+), so just a tip on the placement of the power regulators, and that instead of directly soldering the main tab onto the pcb, it might be more convenient to use heatsink grease & then use a screw & nut to hold it down. This is the usual industry "standard". It is more convenient than soldering especially when you have to replace the reg. That is why the regulator tab has a hole, to use a screw. You can also add a separate tiny heatsink to the tab, either make it yourself from sheet metal with a simple shape, or find a proper heatsink for TO-220 packages. I don't know how hot those get on a PET, I haven't used a PET since the mid 1980's. Personally, as for the MiniPET, it would be nice if it was designed to take advantage of the higher speeds of the new 6502 it is using, but apparently it doesn't, I'm unsure, even if it takes carefulness for any compatibilities.
I think it was surprise at the keyboard being decent even though it was made in a couple of days, TexElec makes logic boards and isn't as experienced as someone who makes and sells keyboards. The fact that it didn't just match the PET's but improved on it is an achievement. I'm actually glad one of the retro reviewers actually provided a solution instead of just complaining like others, the 8-Bit Guy has been pretty good at offering new ideas and ways to make the most of these hobby projects
@@smpmuzpid spring weight is always preference, but cherrys are consistently scratchier than pretty much everything else. plus, yeah, other (imo better) switches are cheaper
I can't believe the makers of that kit thought that keyboard was in any way shape or form acceptable. Specially at the premium pricing for that kit. I mean it's just a bunch of bare microscwitches without any keycaps on them, with their labels being literally just a silk screen on a PCB. When he took the keyboard out i assumed the keycaps were in a separate bag, but nope, that was the whole thing. Like.. seriously? Using even the cheapest keyboard switches (or just rubber membrane) and cheapest plastic caps would give the user wayyy better typing experience at about the same manufacturing price.
There are keyboards that use switches like that (The PocketType for instance), but they always come with keycaps and are designed not to flex like crazy like a PCB. Point being that the keyboard could have been done cheaply AND right.
@Tone. He had shown two original pet keyboards in the video and both had keycaps. The second bigger one actually looked pretty comfy. So what you get with this kit is nowhere close to the original. You basically get a cheap mechanical keyboard with no caps, plain and simple. Typing any longer code on that would be a nightmare.
@@haraldschiner6837 I mean...anyone between 40 and 50 has seen 8-bit porn. And when you've seen one 8-bit porn, you've seen 'em all. Any other age-groups here?
These sort of videos showing older technology always give me so much more appreciation for the old computers. To see what they did with basic parts is amazing.
A few years ago I was watching a video with metal welding. Someone walked by and asked "Isn't it a bad idea to look directly at that? Doesn't the light burn your eyes? You shouldn't be looking directly at it."... *facepalm*
Fans and an open window are your best buddies while soldering. Repaired many an Apple IIe in high school with my ol' trusty soldering iron. Heck even had it with me in classes. Can't tell you how many times I was called out of class to fix a video connector on a IIe. Or scrape a peanut butter sandwich out of a cartridge loading CD-ROM drive... Or play electrician and fix that male to male extension cable a friend and I found the fun way with metal scaffolding while working on lighting for a school play... Gads I miss Radio Shack... I need a new soldering iron and solder to fix those same speakers from 1984. Best damn speakers my father ever bought. 36 years and these black beauties are still working-ish. Need to re-solder the connections in the signal cable to the plug AGAIN. And the signal cable keeps getting shorter and shorter...
@@battleangel5595 Radio Shack is making a comeback. They already have re-opened a few hundred Radio Shack "express" stores, and about 400 independent franchisees survived the "death" of Radio Shack. Of course, none of the new stores are anywhere near where I live (we used to have three.) Instead of having stand-alone stores, though, a lot of them are in space rented from other retailers like Hobby Shack USA.
Damn! Just whipped up two PCB designs outta nowhere! They look so much better! And I'm always impressed when I see PCBWay boards in videos. They look high quality, solid, and sexy. Great video and effort from everyone involved!
That's a neat project, especially for anyone who grew up with the Commodore PET. For anyone who wants to have a quick play with the PET but are not ready to commit to the whole kit or buy a real PET, I can recommend the VICE emulator, I believe it supports all PET models.
People eschew the emulator but for no good reason IMO, it works damn fast, it's very accurate, it's always at hand. Virtual machine! I do believe the entire Android/IOS systems are nothing but virtual machines.
Planet X1 came out on the VIC-20 years ago, it just needs a RAM expansion to run since the system lacks resources for more complex games that would've run fine on other machines of its day like the 64 and Spectrum.
Way back in the day I worked on a green screen monitor, doing airline reservations in Omaha, NE, watching your video brought back some memories! A 3D printed case of some sort would be a great idea to go with this little PET project.
A real Commodore PET averages around $300-400ish (except for chiclet/blue PETs), often in working condition. If you're patient, sometimes less. This is neat but really you could achieve the same thing more cheaply with emulation or a RPi, unless you are really about building the thing. That said, the one they have as a drop-in replacement for a dead PET board could be handy in the future as more originals fail.
FYI , for soldering circuit I recommend a magnifier lamp. It adds light and makes board easier to see. BUT the best reason is it blocks the fumes of soldering. I have one florescent and one led
Dude, you might've found it to be arduous to include all of the soldering steps you took at the beginning but a lot of those were like the best kind of "oh duh" reminders for people like me who don't solder nearly enough to think about things differently. Thanks!
2:11 Nerdy dad looks through magnifying glass at solder job on BYO Commodore PET board. I doubt I'll see a better representation of modern retro computing lol.
Amazing. I hope there will be more of similar products available for other popular platforms, ideally fully open source, so future improvements can be done. I highly appreciate the community’s tremendous efforts to keep Commodore alive in modern world. Keep up the awesome work and hopefully carry the legacy of the 8-bit computers into the future.
This thing is very cool. If it was only about $70 cheaper, or came with a full-size keyboard kit, like you added, I would buy it in a heartbeat. Of course I already have a working vintage 2001 PET. This is the best of the retro-ish computer kits I've seen.
That's pretty cool. I wish there was something similar for 486 PC's. I have ao486 installed on my MiSTer FPGA, but I would like to see a board that all allows you to install different chips representing the different parts of an old 486 PC. That way you get smaller modern parts and also the experience of building the PC.
@@XalphYT It's more about knowing there were such switches rather than actually using those. Getting one (as an option) for use in such a project wouldn't hurt though.
True, but it doesn't matter if you live in Europe, Asia, or the Americas: Odds are, you will be able to find someone that will sell you non-latching MX switches. When you go for the latching variation, your options drop significantly throughout the world.
@@XalphYT Switches themselves are externally the same and thus there wouldn't be much trouble making both types fit into the PCB. Of course options drop if you choose the latching one, but it's not like I could get original PET where I live either. Good news with that locking MX switch is that it'd be drop-in replacement as long as the board treats the switch as a latching one. The only thing that's different from standard MX switch is LED recess moved to the right.
Here's the download of my game RPG Quest: Minimae (aka PETima) that was shown in the video, in case anyone wants to try it: 8bitshowandtell.com/prg/petima.prg
Popping the spacebar on two switches really isn't a good implementation. The official spec for Cherry spacebar calls for one switch in the centre (though it doesn't have to be dead centre, 6.25u spacebar has a couple different implementations where the centre stem could be slightly offset) and supported on either side by stabilisers that are coupled together using a wire. This will allow the spacebar to depress smoothly even if you press on it off-centre. It's pretty trivial to implement the cutouts for stablisers (you basically just need to have 4 correctly-sized holes, 2 sets on each side of the spacebar for the stabilisers to clip into the PCB. Cherry stabs are standard parts, and any decent enthusiast mechanical keyboard store will have them. Edit: The keycaps you're using are a cylindrical sculpted profile, which means that the keytop on each row has a different angle. If you want them to be all uniform, try looking into uniform caps such as DSA or XDA profiles, they give you more flexibility to implement oddball layouts (such as what you're trying to do in this video) since every row is uniform. Edit: Instead of using stickers, which may peel off over time, you can try getting PBT blank keycaps, and use a thermal print transfer process called 'dye sublimation' to permanently print the label onto the keycaps. This printing method essentially 'infuse' the ink onto the top layer of plastic (PBT is somewhat porous, and heating up the cap before printing allow the pores to open up and let the ink seep onto the surface, which then close up again after cooling, resulting in durable printed legends that will not fade)
I would be tempted at seeing if you could 3d print inserts for the PET keycaps so they can be put on MX switches. I have no idea if it is possible but from the video it looked like it would be. Should definitely have used a stabilizer for the space bar though.
agreed. also specifically regarding the keycaps, laser etched pbt xda may be a way to go. i don't know if you're into custom keyboards, but i've seen people laser etch mbk keycaps for choc switches at their maker space fairly easily, and it may be a cheaper solution temporarily
I couldn't help but smirk when his keyboard parts took FOREVER in transit. Welcome to the wonderful world of mechanical keyboards. Now join a group buy, fork over 400 dollars and wait for 2 years for you new keyboard kit! Love the look of a PCB loaded up with Cherry MX Blacks. Nice!
Over the past days i have fallen in love with your videos! I wasn't yet born when these machines were in use but i really love their simplicity, how a single person can understand pretty much everything about an old 8 bit computer. I think ill watch these videos, including the commodore history, as ill learn about digital electronics. Im not at that point tho, not yet at least. Thank you for making these videos
It should be mandatory to check continuity after soldering and before plugging in, it's saves a lot of headaches. When you sell your PCs you should supply allowable ohm values to be checked.
@@absurdengineering No only on the power rails, because that's the only thing that will cause stuff to burn, ie, if it's zero ohms don't plug in the power.
I would absolutely love to have something like the Mini-PET, but that upfront investment is just so hard for my wallet to justify. Still, what an absolutely brilliant piece of hardware! Maybe these will be cheaper with time...
The 8-Bit Guy what I’d like to see is a modern day equivalent to the Apple II GS. The Apple II has peaked my interest in the pre Macintosh era Apple and something like that would be nice.
@@The8BitGuy SMD parts certainly can be cheaper than DIP components, but for the price they are asking, the cost of the components should not be the problem. My initial though was that there was about €50 of components on it, but since they are using original WDC parts it might be a bit more. Still, I don't see how you could reach €100 with the components on the board. Whatever the reason of the cost, there should be plenty opportunities to reduce the cost without resorting to SMD.
The very first computer I ever used! Tape drive + waiting 4 - 6 hours for a program to load from tape. And if it failed to load, then I had to wait until the next school day to use it. I had to come and watch this video. Nice job and detail! Thank you for bringing my childhood nostalgic memories back.
Hey Dave! As an electronics engineer myself, the assembly of such things is very difficult and the 'short to ground' failure is very common. Usually, I test a new board by checking every power rail if it is shorted to ground and etc. Also having a solder frame (which is used in production) helps a lot! I'd love to assemble the commander X16 and give some hints about assembly instructions.
25:36 He basically ported Mario Maker to Commodore machines and it wasn't even the main focus of the video. Thanks for the tile editor, I imagine it will be very useful for others looking to do some retro game dev
Literally made a new keyboard from scratch in a few days on a whim for this video. That's awesome. This is why I love your videos, and actually turn off adblock.
Generally when building a kit with socketed ICs I first install the power circuitry, power up the board with no other chips and check for proper voltages, then install all of the chips. But, I know you just wanted an excuse to troubleshoot! Very nice kit - I remember the PET in it's heyday but could not afford it as a poor high school kid. The other tool I find handy is the bracket which holds the board for easy flipping when soldering. Got it on Amazon recently is really handy.
Old Compute! magazines have more technical information in a single issue than modern-day technical manuals have in total, assuming what you buy has a manual to begin with.
"It's things like this that make me very concerned about selling the Commander X16 as a DIY kit." - No, thats why its good to sell as a kit! If you sell it as parts you don't have to worry about your own mistakes, and if other people make mistakes they can learn from it. Kit building is fun after all :)
@@tvandbeermakehomergo I didn't want to make that political, but you are probably right. And perhaps someone realizes that the envelopes are unmarked, so its everyones vote which might get "lost".
With the keyboard, wouldn't it be possible to do some extra things like actually getting a number row working by "translating" the key-press into a PET output key press with a micro? i mean, you might have to do that anyway with the shift-lock and the moved keys, so wouldn't that be an option? Or is putting yet another micro-controller inside a machine that's less powerful than a micro-controller cheating too much?
My thinking as well. It may even be simpler depending on how the board and all is done. After all, he have two blank keys next to the space bar. If possible, one could have those act like a "numlock" and switch the scancode or something between the numpad and the top row. While engaged, the PET would see a numpad signal whenever a top row key was pressed (while also giving you symbols when pressing something over on the numpad). but this is me just brainstorming.
Regarding the soldering, you will create a more reliable joint if you feed the solder onto the joint, as the flux core can remove any oxidation on the joint rather than burning away on the iron. I find that having a bit of solder on the tip, pressing it against the pad+leg then feeding solder from the opposite side (or thereabouts) works well. Depends on having a good iron, don't get me started about soldering irons. Also, for your connection between the to-220 and the board, grab some flux. Any time you can't feed in flux core solder into the joint, you should use flux. I keep a tube of thick flux and a flux pen on my own bench. Thin flux from a pen would be better for that joint but thick is best for any rework you ever need to do. Invaluable for SMD work. For your quick connection between the keyboard and computer, grab some "DuPont cable" (actual name) for next time. That stuff sneaks into all my projects.
Yeah, the whole “In Transit - Arriving Late” has been happening a lot lately; most likely due to COVID. It seems to be completely random too. I’ve ordered things at the same time and one will arrive on time and the other is delayed by at least a week. It usually happens to things you’re hoping to get quickly. 🙄
I used, ages ago, the version of PET without the built-in cassette deck and with a more normal(-ish) keyboard as an instrument controller in a laboratory, because of its GP-IB (IEEE-488) bus. This is _really_ a blast from the past. Thank you!
I have a Commodore monochrome monitor. Having had a Vic 20 in my teen years and using it, cleaning it out after spilled drinks and generally being excited made me become a computer tech.
A trick that I was taught in the 70s was to solder in on corner of the chip. Then Use something like a tissue and your finger of the other hand and press and reflow. Check to see if it is in flat. The do the same on the diagonal opposite corner. I did all the sockets. When all are in and flat, I would begin doing the rest of the pins in a group. We did soldering at the time to mil speck. Our inspector looked for pin holes and other defects. This was for prototypes.
Yeh, what happened with Commander X16. Because the last update for that I can find was like two years ago. And so I thought that project had been abandoned.
@@michaelturner4457 Well, there's less than 6 six guys working on it in their spare time and it's undergone at least one ground-up redesign. So, maybe just be patient?
My cat pet is missing all her tooth parts, she wanders around with her tongue sticking half out "merrrrrwwwww! MERRRRRRRRRW!" Yeah she's drunk. So what.
Two points: 1) You've forgotten to remove the protection sticker from the speaker. 2) On the original PET, you could adjust the 6845 timing registers in software to fix things like the screen centring with a poke or two. I have no idea if they've emulated that properly with the ATMEL though. I'd go ask the makers.
@The 8-Bit Guy I love how you narrate these videos like they are happening in real time even though you already know whats gonna happen. It's fun but in a dorky way. This video convinced me to try to build a kit computer. I have purchased an RC2014.
I love your map editor! I love that it even works on the 128 in 128 mode and the Amiga 4000 without an emulator (with only minor changes on BASICally any Commodore machine).
You don't need a kernel modification for a better layout. You just have to do what modern custom keyboards do: have a micro-processor emit the key codes, and let software handle the rest. That way you can use any layout you want, the kernel won't care.
Hello ~ It's me ~ PCBWayyyyyy !
Super excited and honored to be part of 8-Bit project :)
Hello PCBWay! :3
Wait, PCBway is a real thing?? I thought it was just a joke made up sponsor for Retro Recipes
@@xp7575 Of course! REAL!
I love Windows XP and you should too
Never in my life did I think that retro computer kits would be a thing, over 40 years after they were originally released, but I'm glad. I can show my daughter the 8-bit computers I grew up with as she looks at lines of code and at simple looking games (slightly bemused) and yet having played like Space Invaders, she returns to them later on, as she finally understands gaming concepts like playability meaning more than something looking good or sounding good. So far it's all been on emulations so something running on a PC or tablet means it's still attached to today's technology but a board and chips shows how old computers were.
The beginnings of affordable home computing is a subject today's tech nerds need to delve into to understand it and it's a fusion of generations who enjoyed it long ago and get to enjoy it again.
4:49 - I noticed the board label 'tynemouth software mini pet V1.44' and then googled out of curiosity and found that the company is just under 5 miles away from where I live.
I got my first computer in 1995, a variation on the PowerMac 6100. I still wanted a Compact Mac to hang onto and play around with some older stuff from the late 80s/early 90's that wouldn't run on that machine. Never really got into Apple II though. Played around with it a bit, but felt a bit too basic for me and never really had the desire to go back to it.
It sounds like you're reaching. Hardly anyone grew up with a PET. They just were not ever meant to be in the home for kids. Literally nobody was asking for this computer to be made. Being a PET, it is essentially DOA. They are no good for games and nobody would ever use one today for any kind productivity or even as a terminal to an internet based BBS. It is an expensive piece of kit where the best experience you will have with it is soldering it and then troubleshooting where your mistakes were.
@@christo930 - Sounds like you're triggered and furthermore with every sentence you wrote.
I find these have still charm, no x86 pc has, that is both software and electronics is easy enough to "fix yourself", ie. troubleshoot problems, which is infinite power for parent like you. I find , when we had 486 pc at home, missing out something of this "charm", as C+assembly in DOS isnt same as programming these machines. It doesnt give same learning experience, confidence and joy. I never had amiga so I cannot compare those, I know some people are die hard amiga fans.
@@effexon I had a VIC 20 first and then a 64. Never a pet.
12:37 -- What is "PORN1" on this PET directory?
LOL
An 8bit man needs his 8bit porn
I really have no clue. David, I have my eyes on you.
haha.. It was an C64 porn program somebody sent me and wanted me to see. I forgot it was on there. Good catch.
@@The8BitGuy Can I have a copy? I am an avid collector of this sort of stuff.
I really appreciate how you narrate your mistakes and setbacks. It is such a good representation of what the work is really like that it makes it a great tool for beginners to understand the mindset
"Just doesn't work right, it gets this far and locks up." That's pretty authentic IMHO. :P
That reminds me of the days of typing in code from magazines... and some of the fonts were not the greatest for telling what was 0, O or Q, or 1, l and L.
Java Beanz I love to guzzle that 💦
@@javabeanz8549 Remember it clearly! I think worm of beamer was the first one I typed in from Compute!
8-
@Todd I don't remember if I did type in any out of COMPUTE! or not, maybe it was. I re-coded the logic for the Reversi game, as it wasn't challenging enough for me. I did find that COMPUTE! had an ST Reversi game, but the one I was using had Atari 400/800, TI-99/4A, C64, VIC20, and I think Timex/Sinclair code, all in the one article.
Here is a tip, measure the voltage before putting the chips in, otherwise if something is wrong with the regulator all your chips will fry.
He was probably in a rush for the video, would make sense for him to invest in a workspace so he can work more consistently on kits without worrying about missing connections or solder bridges.
@@amirpourghoureiyan1637 Yea I can see the logic in that. But since the chips already came apart from the sockets it wouldn't be all that much work to just connect the meter. Blowing all chips will take way more time. However, I am sure that the 8-Bit-Guy knows his stuff, it might not be that obvious to all people watching this video. It would be a devastating experience for someone who saved up some money to buy this product and see all the components go up in flames.
@@basvisscher934 Yeah, I brought a Spectrum ZX81 kit and socketed all the chips so I could power the board before inserting them to check that the power was going to the right pins
@@basvisscher934 tbh I'm sure people who want to make their own PET would have some electrical knowledge considering it's known more for it's utility and historical value than for games like the later Commodore machines. In the case of casual users though, a lot of caution and double-checking is a good measure when tackling a kit with similar level of risk.
Was about to post a comment saying just that.
Wow, what a flashback to times of old. I was a software engineer working on the military UNIVAC computer, the AN/UYK-7 at the Naval Underwater Systems Center in Newport, Rhode Island, and writing "The Inventor's Sketchpad" column for Interface Age Magazine when I bought my first personal computer, the original Commodore PET. I ordered the one with just 4K of memory ($600) but several weeks later got notified that they weren't making that version anymore because everyone was asking for the extra 4K upgrade which cost another $200!! I accepted that, grudgingly. It was a fun little machine.
C'mon, the guy who made PET Tetris didn't call it PETris?
No 'cause (probably) someone did it first.
I thought the EXACT same thing. It's honestly a little saddening
A missed opportunity.
DAMMIT, you beat me to it!
BA DUM TISSSSSSSS
Our school had fund drive to buy a PET to bring us into "The Computer Age".
Lol your school sucks. This stupid “computer” can’t even play fortnites! Awful it’s too expensive!!!!!!!!😡
@@aelecx9083 your obviously a kid just get out
@@aelecx9083 you knos this computer freaking released in 1977 and this pet kit it's just for diy for fun and in 1977 commodore pet was cutting edge and expansive so it's really awesome for his school to buy it
Wow that's great! My school never did this...
Just one?
Fun fact(s): the Commodore PET was the first home microcomputer late Nintendo president Satoru Iwata cut his teeth on, while he was an intern at Commodore of Japan. NEC got into the home micro business & ostensibly ran Commodore out of the country, after which Iwata went on to found a homebrew computer club for fellow hobbyists that later incorporated as HAL Laboratory (of Kirby, Mother, & Smash Bros. fame).
I read that in the amazing book about commodore's story
Yeah Japan despises anything not of Japan.
Dont forget that Hp programmable calculator thing
Powerful Aura
That explains why there was no Amiga Madou Monogatari. And why the SF ports to Amiga were mostly puke.
@@SomeOrangeCat Except USA Made McIntosh amps and JBL loudspeakers.
8:32 This is probably why they used the Atmel. They're great little chips to use to replace custom IC's in a project like this. Cheap as chips, plentiful, and can be programmed to duplicate the functionality of rare, old or custom chips, while extending the functionality of the original system.
22:32 I think this kind of custom hackery is EXACTLY what these kinds of kit projects are intended to stimulate.
yes. and because they also come from Microchip now, it is also a good option to look at the dsPIC33EV. it is fully 5V compatible and runs with 70MHz and 16 bit. but i have to say that emulating a video chip is a crazy achievement. i don't think that it is possible with the c64 VIC-II. but never say never. maybe with some crazy dma trickery?
@@stefanweilhartner4415 In this case it's apparently subbing the 6545 CRT Controller chip, possibly the whole raster output system. Actually, I wonder if it might be related to the dual ported RAM? If both the CPU and 6545 are capable of accessing the RAM at the same time in this reimplementation it might be capable of running faster than 1mhz: Would an original 6545 be able to keep up?
@@TheTurnipKing is this new circuit not using a dual-port video ram?
@@stefanweilhartner4415 yep. The PET usually allows alternate cycle access between the video generator and the CPU. If I get what the dual port ram is doing correctly, it seems like both the CPU and video generation could run synchronously, so long as both the CRTC and CPU can keep up.
@@TheTurnipKing The dual port ram is needed because the atmel chip does not have an external memory bus like the 6502, so it can't share a single port ram. It needs to 'bit-bang' one on its dedicated port.
PCB way!!! Because we all know that PCB stands for "Pet Compatible Boards". Right Chip-dippers?
I've read it with his voice in my head. And they say advertising doesn't work...
Gotta love Perifractic. He's awesome! :)
@@UnholyTriforceDelenn More like insufferably annoying
@@AlTheJuggernaut You're entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.
No way? Yes way? PCB Way!
7:37: "It's things like this that make me very concerned about selling the Commander X16 as a DYI kit."
Yes, as a Do-Yourself-In kit. :-P
😂😂
I read it as Do-Your-Itself, but Do-Yourself-In makes more sense.
Do you even have the road raider skin in fortnite? Wow very much poop head
Kekw
@@aelecx9083 mate you've got problems
On the power switch: Remove the power adapter polarity jumper pins and put in a DPST switch in its place. Just orient it in the correct direction.
I don’t see why they wouldn’t just use a diode rectifier. Surely it can’t cost that much to add 4 diodes to the layout, right?
@@21Trainman Not only that, but it would take plenty of heat off that 5V regulator. It should be a full-bridge rectifier - it’d present the 5V regulator with about 7V worst case, so any reasonably LDO would do the job with 2V drop-off available for it.
@@absurdengineering Good point - I can’t imagine it’d draw enough power to cause problems for the diodes or their surrounding area, so it could only improve things.
@@21Trainman ikr? Full-wave rectifiers in an 8-pin DIP are dirt cheap.
@@AmoyamoyamoyaUA-cam You could even easily build one out of 4 discrete diodes, and to really make sure it's flat, connect a small capacitor at the end.
re concern about selling the Commander X-16 as a kit:
You should turn it into a proper learning tool, especially now that many in the audience will not have experience with this anymore. Give step by step instructions with details and rationale like you mentioned in the video of doing the sockets first;
but also include *checklists* of Q/A checking along the way.
Design it so it can be tested electrically, as much as possible. Tell them to check the power before putting the chips in, etc.
Finally, make it a WIKI site so that people can add their own notes and experiences and post solutions to problems that are found in the wild.
Agreed, I grew up in the 90's and didn't really know about these old systems until adulthood but I still find them quite fascinating and think it may be a good idea to learn coding on them. I don't have a lot kit experience but I have assembled a few and I've picked up a few things from watching UA-camrs. BigClive has a device that holds PCB's in place while he solders which he apparently picked up many years ago, if I knew where to find one (and it didn't cost too much) I'd get it.
Indeed. Unwanted shorts between adjacent pins and to ground (particularly of the power rails) are something that can and should be checked during the soldering process. A well chosen set of continuity checks will catch a lot of the common problems and not take very long at all; if you're worried about inexperienced kit builders you can just supply explicit instructions for those.
It would be nice if a modern coding language were ported to the system, I'm not sure if the 6510 CPUs were capable enough to get the C language working on it but something familiar to Pi users like Python would be a nice thing for students and hobbyists.
@@amirpourghoureiyan1637 The 6502 is poorly suited to C, but that of course hasn't stopped people from building a C compiler for it anyway. CC65 (cc65.github.io/) has been available for decades, and is of very high quality.(Disclosure: I've contributed a very tiny amount of code to the VIC-20 libraries for it.)
@@Curt_Sampson Awesome, they should include that with a beginners bundle, would be great to see if the X16 would fare any better than the early Commodore line-up
I think this is a great idea and a lot of fun, but $300+ is a lot to ask.
For a project kit, it's about right, tbh. Especially one with a keyboard PCB.
How much does an actual PET in working condition cost?
$600-$800, from what I've seen
@aprofondir actual PETs are 40 year old antiques and replacement components are extremely difficult to source for the most part. The MiniPET on the other hand is just off the shelf freely available components.
18:57 Save the USPS
Regarding the spacebar - you could have dissasemble two cherry switches, remove the spring and contact leaf and just use them as stabilizers - therefore making middle switch only one that actually works. That would make it not very stiff and should well stabilise it :)
What is totally awesome: how you said on one hand there were probably more pets out there than functional keyboards...and it sounds like that problem just got solved :D
To fix your keycap issue, you may want to look into DSA, XDA, MDA, NP, or OSA style keycaps, as they have completely uniform keys. The set you have is an OEM style set and they keys are going to be sculpted for ergonomics. Cherry and SA style sets will have the same sculpted design as the OEM set that you have. With the DSA, XDA, etc keycaps, you can have any key you like at any location without keys being taller or shorter than the others around it
SA row 3 would also be an option and they look very retro.
Good Guys PCBWay - not sponsoring the video but still providing you with free, awesome and quick turn-around PCB's for the video. That's the best kind of free advertising they deserve to help bring projects like this forward with the benefit of helping people repair old systems with dead keyboards.
This just solidifies my chances of buying stuff from them if I ever need to design and prototype a PCB for a project, with high quality and quick turn-around of the boards.
Using a Stabilizer for the Space Key would prevent awkwardness with the 3 separate Switches while preventing wobble.
The comment I was searching for.
Yes, this. Using stabilizers is the right solution here.
Or you could just remove the springs and contacts from 2 of the switches, really easy to do.
@@nictamer it's still not as good.
@@jussapitka6041 not as good, but definitely better.
Came for the tech, stayed for the satisfying Mechanical Keyboard noises.
@Alexandros K a Maniacal Keyboard? Like the ZX Spectrum rubber keys?
Looking for maniacal noises? Look no further, UA-cam comments section is FULL of them, take your pick.
razer blackwidow chroma, original first one, since 2016 spring - for that annoying mechanical keyboard clicky sound
I learnt to code in Basic on a Commodore Pet when at I attended Salford University in the early 1980's. This video brought back some great memories. Thanks.
I really think basic should make a comeback someday. Maybe in computer kits for kids or something.
@@EvilSandwich BASIC had its place, but these days the most commonly found language in learn to code courses is probably Python - as used, for example, on Raspberry Pi. Those working on embedded systems will typically use C, perhaps using the Arduino or mbed environments initially. The first rudiments of programming are sometimes taught using visual coding environments like Microsoft MakeCode (e.g. on BBC micro:bit hardware).
BASIC made sense 'back in the day', but suffers from lack of standardisation in areas such as flow control and lexical scoping. Graphics primitives are dialect specific, as are any library or object orientated features. These limitations together with the wealth of pedagogical material already out there for alternatives such as Python means BASIC is unlikely to make a comeback.
The last company to push BASIC heavily was probably Microsoft with Visual Basic, but traditional Visual Basic was declared a legacy product in 2008 and development stopped with Visual Basic 6.0. Visual Basic .NET is still actively developed, but is a fully object-orientated language that doesn't have the deterministic execution of traditional Visual Basic. C# is perhaps more popular than Visual Basic .NET for .NET development, though the popularity of these two languages seems to wax and wane.
Realistically, traditional BASIC is a legacy language these days, just as 8 bit microprocessors are legacy products these days. Low end 32 bit microcontrollers are so cheap now that there is little reason not to select a 32 bit chip unless using DIP packages, 5V logic level compatibility, reuse of existing code assets and/or shaving every penny off the BOM cost steers you towards an 8 bit chip.
I have fond memories of my journey with 8 bit equipment but I haven't powered on my ZX Spectrum or BBC Master in years (and would expect them to need some recapping and other hardware maintenance to use them again). I certainly would not spend the money on something like the Mini PET, wonderful as it undoubtedly is for those who want a 'new' PET. If I wanted a 'new' 8 bit, 16 bit or early 32 bit computer to use for legacy system software, I'd probably go for an FPGA based solution if software emulation was inadequate.
If you want to buy something to code on, you can buy a Raspberry Pi or similar device for something like a quarter of the cost of the Mini PET kit, power it with a redundant phone charger (so long as it has sufficient output), hook it up to your television using HDMI, connect an inexpensive wireless keyboard and perhaps also a mouse and you have all you need. The Mini PET really isn't a learn to code tool - there is little point in most people learning about the limitations and idiosyncracies of systems originally designed over 40 years ago.
I work for the computing school at Salford Uni - best job ever!
@@DavidWood2 Not everyone wants to learn programming to make a career out of it. Some people just want to explore and play around for fun. That being the case, a simple to understand language that can teach the rudiments of programming is just as valid as learning some variation of C or Java etc. Modern computers are daunting, huge layers of abstraction, requiring various bloated 'libraries' to access their complicated user interfaces etc. It's easy to be distracted or put off by that, and many modern languages just aren't ideal for learning the very basics. Who cares if the language isn't a modern 'standard'? C, C++, C#, Java, Python, Perl and Lua are all different to each other anyway. However, the basic mental processes are transferrable, so once learned, it relatively easy to move on to another language. Would you teach kids to read by giving them Tolkien, Asimov or a car maintenance manual as their first book?
I was watching this video with my 9 month old daughter. She has heard Dave's voice since she was born so she always stops what she's doing and pays attention.
You raised your child well
That is so darling 😍
Uncle Dave!
🥰🥰🥰
Its david
Amazing! Nice to see a company Tynemouth Software from my hometown 'Tynemouth' UK making nostalgic kits for Commodore enthusiasts.
You could install a switch to the jumpers near the power socket
Good call! It would be easy to use those jumpers, which were put in place to allow the polarity change on the barrel jack, to be used to install a power switch!
The irony of asking if I "made it this far" when UA-cam decided to throw not one, not two, but SIX mid-roll ads into your video... UA-cam's getting extremely aggressive with automatic mid-rolls so you may want to take manual control of them, as having to watch an ad or two roughly every 4 minutes makes it really hard to follow along with the things you're talking about.
I’m totally happy to watch ads to support the channel - but the constant and often unskippable mid rolls made this the most painful 26 minutes of 8 bit guy I’ve ever watched. Please please get the midrolls under control - they are really spoiling your great content
@@Ffinity I don't want to have to do that, not for a channel with content I like. Besides, speaking as a creator myself, I know there's manual controls over mid-roll ads, but it was a very recent change which caused the level of automatic ads to go nuts and not everyone's noticed or got informed the change was even happening, so I wanted to comment on this to make sure David's aware of what just happened with regards to automatic ads on his video. :B
@@PhantasmNZ He has no control over that. UA-cam is being a bunch of assholes lately and it's getting worse.
@@Ffinity I can at home, but not at work. I'm a programmer, but we aren't allowed to have local admin rights anymore. sigh.....
I lost count. It was more than 6. I'm like is this an hour long video or something? Seriously!!!!! This is freaking insane.
i hate to be that person (but im going to be anyway), but when soldering pins you need to put the solder into the pin and pad, not the iron. makes it super quick to just fire through pins
I'm glad someone said it (and it wasn't me this time)
They are badly designed boards; the pads are too small to heat up with a soldering iron.
You're absolutely right. Heat the pin and pad together, then bring solder in. It's just an OCD thing for me. I notice a lot of hobby guys doing it.
Melting a bead of solder onto the iron is a habit from working with solid-wire solder and a separate container of paste flux.
I haven't read all the comments (there's a 1000+), so just a tip on the placement of the power regulators, and that instead of directly soldering the main tab onto the pcb, it might be more convenient to use heatsink grease & then use a screw & nut to hold it down. This is the usual industry "standard". It is more convenient than soldering especially when you have to replace the reg. That is why the regulator tab has a hole, to use a screw. You can also add a separate tiny heatsink to the tab, either make it yourself from sheet metal with a simple shape, or find a proper heatsink for TO-220 packages. I don't know how hot those get on a PET, I haven't used a PET since the mid 1980's.
Personally, as for the MiniPET, it would be nice if it was designed to take advantage of the higher speeds of the new 6502 it is using, but apparently it doesn't, I'm unsure, even if it takes carefulness for any compatibilities.
I remember taking apart cassettes and shortening the leader so that we did not have to manually adjust them.
"...it's actually nice to type on..."
Not really a surprise, when you use Cherry MX mechanical keyboard switches.
so long as you use blacks like he did
I think it was surprise at the keyboard being decent even though it was made in a couple of days, TexElec makes logic boards and isn't as experienced as someone who makes and sells keyboards. The fact that it didn't just match the PET's but improved on it is an achievement. I'm actually glad one of the retro reviewers actually provided a solution instead of just complaining like others, the 8-Bit Guy has been pretty good at offering new ideas and ways to make the most of these hobby projects
Zealios or bust.
should've gone with gaterons or kailhs...
@@smpmuzpid spring weight is always preference, but cherrys are consistently scratchier than pretty much everything else. plus, yeah, other (imo better) switches are cheaper
I can't believe the makers of that kit thought that keyboard was in any way shape or form acceptable. Specially at the premium pricing for that kit. I mean it's just a bunch of bare microscwitches without any keycaps on them, with their labels being literally just a silk screen on a PCB. When he took the keyboard out i assumed the keycaps were in a separate bag, but nope, that was the whole thing. Like.. seriously? Using even the cheapest keyboard switches (or just rubber membrane) and cheapest plastic caps would give the user wayyy better typing experience at about the same manufacturing price.
TFW8B have a 200% markup on their prices.
There are keyboards that use switches like that (The PocketType for instance), but they always come with keycaps and are designed not to flex like crazy like a PCB. Point being that the keyboard could have been done cheaply AND right.
@Tone. He had shown two original pet keyboards in the video and both had keycaps. The second bigger one actually looked pretty comfy. So what you get with this kit is nowhere close to the original. You basically get a cheap mechanical keyboard with no caps, plain and simple. Typing any longer code on that would be a nightmare.
@Tone. Even the cash register style keyboard is better than that. There's nothing authentic with that keyboard.
re: I can't believe the makers of that kit thought that keyboard was in any way shape or form acceptable
Brits you know...3rd rate is good enough.
A PET with Cherry MX switches. Now I've seen everything. Great video!
We haven't seen the content of porn1.prg. So life isn't complete yet ;-)
@@haraldschiner6837 I mean...anyone between 40 and 50 has seen 8-bit porn. And when you've seen one 8-bit porn, you've seen 'em all. Any other age-groups here?
@The 8-Bit Guy my name is David too, im 15 years old and im very motivated by your videos. thanks for helping me find a hobby that i enjoy.
These sort of videos showing older technology always give me so much more appreciation for the old computers. To see what they did with basic parts is amazing.
The keyboard part of the video is fantastic! nice work!
When you were soldering the keyboard at 17:00 I caught myself holding my breath so I wouldnt breathe the fumes.
A few years ago I was watching a video with metal welding. Someone walked by and asked "Isn't it a bad idea to look directly at that? Doesn't the light burn your eyes? You shouldn't be looking directly at it."... *facepalm*
I actually sneezed.
Fans and an open window are your best buddies while soldering. Repaired many an Apple IIe in high school with my ol' trusty soldering iron. Heck even had it with me in classes. Can't tell you how many times I was called out of class to fix a video connector on a IIe. Or scrape a peanut butter sandwich out of a cartridge loading CD-ROM drive... Or play electrician and fix that male to male extension cable a friend and I found the fun way with metal scaffolding while working on lighting for a school play...
Gads I miss Radio Shack... I need a new soldering iron and solder to fix those same speakers from 1984. Best damn speakers my father ever bought. 36 years and these black beauties are still working-ish. Need to re-solder the connections in the signal cable to the plug AGAIN. And the signal cable keeps getting shorter and shorter...
@@battleangel5595 Radio Shack is making a comeback. They already have re-opened a few hundred Radio Shack "express" stores, and about 400 independent franchisees survived the "death" of Radio Shack. Of course, none of the new stores are anywhere near where I live (we used to have three.) Instead of having stand-alone stores, though, a lot of them are in space rented from other retailers like Hobby Shack USA.
Damn! Just whipped up two PCB designs outta nowhere! They look so much better! And I'm always impressed when I see PCBWay boards in videos. They look high quality, solid, and sexy. Great video and effort from everyone involved!
Big upvotes for this, love that you were able to get a keyboard working from scratch in that timeframe.
That's a neat project, especially for anyone who grew up with the Commodore PET. For anyone who wants to have a quick play with the PET but are not ready to commit to the whole kit or buy a real PET, I can recommend the VICE emulator, I believe it supports all PET models.
People eschew the emulator but for no good reason IMO, it works damn fast, it's very accurate, it's always at hand. Virtual machine! I do believe the entire Android/IOS systems are nothing but virtual machines.
So if Planet X2 is on the C64, Planet X3 is on DOS, Planet X1 is on the VIC-20, so would Planet X0 be on the PET?
Planet X1 came out on the VIC-20 years ago, it just needs a RAM expansion to run since the system lacks resources for more complex games that would've run fine on other machines of its day like the 64 and Spectrum.
LOL Planet X0 is a board game
And how about Planet X-1? Does it run on the Commodore 63?
@@niko5008 No, it runs on a 20 x 4 character LCD screen
Planet X-2 runs on an Altair 8088.
Way back in the day I worked on a green screen monitor, doing airline reservations in Omaha, NE, watching your video brought back some memories! A 3D printed case of some sort would be a great idea to go with this little PET project.
I see what you did there...
Also how did you comment 11 hours ago!?
@@offscreen6578 probably using a keyboard, maybe a touchscreen?
@@offscreen6578 Dave probably released the video early for his Patreon supporters.
A real Commodore PET averages around $300-400ish (except for chiclet/blue PETs), often in working condition. If you're patient, sometimes less. This is neat but really you could achieve the same thing more cheaply with emulation or a RPi, unless you are really about building the thing. That said, the one they have as a drop-in replacement for a dead PET board could be handy in the future as more originals fail.
FYI , for soldering circuit I recommend a magnifier lamp. It adds light and makes board easier to see. BUT the best reason is it blocks the fumes of soldering. I have one florescent and one led
Dude, you might've found it to be arduous to include all of the soldering steps you took at the beginning but a lot of those were like the best kind of "oh duh" reminders for people like me who don't solder nearly enough to think about things differently. Thanks!
2:11 Nerdy dad looks through magnifying glass at solder job on BYO Commodore PET board. I doubt I'll see a better representation of modern retro computing lol.
Looks like it would be a good PET project.
For me, a good keyboard layout is a bit of a PET peeve, though.
Amazing. I hope there will be more of similar products available for other popular platforms, ideally fully open source, so future improvements can be done.
I highly appreciate the community’s tremendous efforts to keep Commodore alive in modern world.
Keep up the awesome work and hopefully carry the legacy of the 8-bit computers into the future.
This thing is very cool. If it was only about $70 cheaper, or came with a full-size keyboard kit, like you added, I would buy it in a heartbeat. Of course I already have a working vintage 2001 PET. This is the best of the retro-ish computer kits I've seen.
I've watched all of your videos, I swear even if I have no clue what's happening, I always get intrigued and always love every video
That's pretty cool. I wish there was something similar for 486 PC's. I have ao486 installed on my MiSTer FPGA, but I would like to see a board that all allows you to install different chips representing the different parts of an old 486 PC. That way you get smaller modern parts and also the experience of building the PC.
If you’re truly interested, please post here, as someone is considering making just that:
www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=72398
@@ajacocks Oh wow! Thanks!
19:05 The 8-Bit Guy has become a victim of Louis DeJoy and his USPS "cost cutting"
Now it's war!
Yeah that’s the first thing I thought too. The kneecapping of the USPS has affected one of our favorite UA-camrs. :/
Thanks 8-Bit Guy for another awesome video. I love building stuff like this. Hopefully in time there will be a full kit with case, keyboard, et al.
I really enjoy your videos. In this one I learned your techniques for soldering components to the PCB. Thanks for the high quality production.
17:15 - There was Cherry MX Lock switch, that when pressed once latched down and unlocked when pushed second time. Hard to get one though.
Megu Shirazawa
With this solution though, you can use one MX switch type for the entire board, instead of having to search for something ultra rare.
@@XalphYT It's more about knowing there were such switches rather than actually using those. Getting one (as an option) for use in such a project wouldn't hurt though.
True, but it doesn't matter if you live in Europe, Asia, or the Americas: Odds are, you will be able to find someone that will sell you non-latching MX switches. When you go for the latching variation, your options drop significantly throughout the world.
@@XalphYT Switches themselves are externally the same and thus there wouldn't be much trouble making both types fit into the PCB. Of course options drop if you choose the latching one, but it's not like I could get original PET where I live either. Good news with that locking MX switch is that it'd be drop-in replacement as long as the board treats the switch as a latching one. The only thing that's different from standard MX switch is LED recess moved to the right.
Here's the download of my game RPG Quest: Minimae (aka PETima) that was shown in the video, in case anyone wants to try it: 8bitshowandtell.com/prg/petima.prg
Popping the spacebar on two switches really isn't a good implementation. The official spec for Cherry spacebar calls for one switch in the centre (though it doesn't have to be dead centre, 6.25u spacebar has a couple different implementations where the centre stem could be slightly offset) and supported on either side by stabilisers that are coupled together using a wire. This will allow the spacebar to depress smoothly even if you press on it off-centre. It's pretty trivial to implement the cutouts for stablisers (you basically just need to have 4 correctly-sized holes, 2 sets on each side of the spacebar for the stabilisers to clip into the PCB.
Cherry stabs are standard parts, and any decent enthusiast mechanical keyboard store will have them.
Edit: The keycaps you're using are a cylindrical sculpted profile, which means that the keytop on each row has a different angle. If you want them to be all uniform, try looking into uniform caps such as DSA or XDA profiles, they give you more flexibility to implement oddball layouts (such as what you're trying to do in this video) since every row is uniform.
Edit: Instead of using stickers, which may peel off over time, you can try getting PBT blank keycaps, and use a thermal print transfer process called 'dye sublimation' to permanently print the label onto the keycaps. This printing method essentially 'infuse' the ink onto the top layer of plastic (PBT is somewhat porous, and heating up the cap before printing allow the pores to open up and let the ink seep onto the surface, which then close up again after cooling, resulting in durable printed legends that will not fade)
I would be tempted at seeing if you could 3d print inserts for the PET keycaps so they can be put on MX switches. I have no idea if it is possible but from the video it looked like it would be. Should definitely have used a stabilizer for the space bar though.
agreed. also specifically regarding the keycaps, laser etched pbt xda may be a way to go. i don't know if you're into custom keyboards, but i've seen people laser etch mbk keycaps for choc switches at their maker space fairly easily, and it may be a cheaper solution temporarily
I couldn't help but smirk when his keyboard parts took FOREVER in transit. Welcome to the wonderful world of mechanical keyboards. Now join a group buy, fork over 400 dollars and wait for 2 years for you new keyboard kit! Love the look of a PCB loaded up with Cherry MX Blacks. Nice!
Over the past days i have fallen in love with your videos! I wasn't yet born when these machines were in use but i really love their simplicity, how a single person can understand pretty much everything about an old 8 bit computer. I think ill watch these videos, including the commodore history, as ill learn about digital electronics. Im not at that point tho, not yet at least.
Thank you for making these videos
It should be mandatory to check continuity after soldering and before plugging in, it's saves a lot of headaches. When you sell your PCs you should supply allowable ohm values to be checked.
Test continuity on a few hundred pins? Lol. Nobody does that manually. No point. Visual inspection is where it’s at for such kits.
@@absurdengineering No only on the power rails, because that's the only thing that will cause stuff to burn, ie, if it's zero ohms don't plug in the power.
I would absolutely love to have something like the Mini-PET, but that upfront investment is just so hard for my wallet to justify. Still, what an absolutely brilliant piece of hardware! Maybe these will be cheaper with time...
I heard a rumor there might be a cheaper, surface-mount version. But we'll see..
The 8-Bit Guy I’ve heard the same rumour, apparently it’s similar to the Commodore 64, but made from all off the shelf components.
@@The8BitGuy Ouch, but surface mount soldering though. I guess it's time to get my tweezers and paste. lol
The 8-Bit Guy what I’d like to see is a modern day equivalent to the Apple II GS. The Apple II has peaked my interest in the pre Macintosh era Apple and something like that would be nice.
@@The8BitGuy SMD parts certainly can be cheaper than DIP components, but for the price they are asking, the cost of the components should not be the problem. My initial though was that there was about €50 of components on it, but since they are using original WDC parts it might be a bit more. Still, I don't see how you could reach €100 with the components on the board. Whatever the reason of the cost, there should be plenty opportunities to reduce the cost without resorting to SMD.
Cool stuff! Here's hoping they follow this up with a Mini VIC-20.
The very first computer I ever used! Tape drive + waiting 4 - 6 hours for a program to load from tape. And if it failed to load, then I had to wait until the next school day to use it. I had to come and watch this video. Nice job and detail! Thank you for bringing my childhood nostalgic memories back.
Hey Dave!
As an electronics engineer myself, the assembly of such things is very difficult and the 'short to ground' failure is very common. Usually, I test a new board by checking every power rail if it is shorted to ground and etc.
Also having a solder frame (which is used in production) helps a lot! I'd love to assemble the commander X16 and give some hints about assembly instructions.
Cutting those labels precisely: metal ruler, single sided razor blade or hobby knife, cutting pad.
Cutting them so as to remove the lines would have taken at least twice as long.
I'd honestly just use a sharpie if I was making this for myself
I would have just cut slightly right of the black line, then cut left of it and done.
25:36 He basically ported Mario Maker to Commodore machines and it wasn't even the main focus of the video. Thanks for the tile editor, I imagine it will be very useful for others looking to do some retro game dev
Always love the building things episodes.
Much like the 'A-Team' build episode. It always peaks my curiosity in creativity.
"pique" is a word
Literally made a new keyboard from scratch in a few days on a whim for this video. That's awesome. This is why I love your videos, and actually turn off adblock.
Generally when building a kit with socketed ICs I first install the power circuitry, power up the board with no other chips and check for proper voltages, then install all of the chips. But, I know you just wanted an excuse to troubleshoot! Very nice kit - I remember the PET in it's heyday but could not afford it as a poor high school kid. The other tool I find handy is the bracket which holds the board for easy flipping when soldering. Got it on Amazon recently is really handy.
man i miss my vic 20 and those old Compute! Magazines.. Spent every Saturday ytying to code games Good times!!
Old Compute! magazines have more technical information in a single issue than modern-day technical manuals have in total, assuming what you buy has a manual to begin with.
"as a DYI kit."
Ah yes, the Do-Yt-Iourself kit
In my case, many times it's "Do yourself in.." as in way over my head.. :-)
Do it Yourself kIt. 😉
Do yourself it kit
My thoughts exactly😂
that video jack is already better designed than the apple ii ones :)
I love when you and others design and upgrade hardware to "correct" keyboard inconveniences and power switch omissions to make a BETTER machine.
All that soldering is unspeakably tedious. My hat's off to you for having the patience to do it!
"It's things like this that make me very concerned about selling the Commander X16 as a DIY kit."
- No, thats why its good to sell as a kit! If you sell it as parts you don't have to worry about your own mistakes, and if other people make mistakes they can learn from it. Kit building is fun after all :)
So your delivery with USPS is delayed... where did I hear that recently?
Fortunately only keys... could have been medicine.
FYI his keys got there on the 17th, since the tracking number is there I checked to see if they had got lost forever.
Or Votes!
@@tvandbeermakehomergo I didn't want to make that political, but you are probably right. And perhaps someone realizes that the envelopes are unmarked, so its everyones vote which might get "lost".
Trump has publicly admitted that’s the purpose of what’s going on at USPS...
Dark Winter Anything to stay in power...
With the keyboard, wouldn't it be possible to do some extra things like actually getting a number row working by "translating" the key-press into a PET output key press with a micro? i mean, you might have to do that anyway with the shift-lock and the moved keys, so wouldn't that be an option? Or is putting yet another micro-controller inside a machine that's less powerful than a micro-controller cheating too much?
My thinking as well. It may even be simpler depending on how the board and all is done. After all, he have two blank keys next to the space bar. If possible, one could have those act like a "numlock" and switch the scancode or something between the numpad and the top row. While engaged, the PET would see a numpad signal whenever a top row key was pressed (while also giving you symbols when pressing something over on the numpad). but this is me just brainstorming.
Regarding the soldering, you will create a more reliable joint if you feed the solder onto the joint, as the flux core can remove any oxidation on the joint rather than burning away on the iron. I find that having a bit of solder on the tip, pressing it against the pad+leg then feeding solder from the opposite side (or thereabouts) works well. Depends on having a good iron, don't get me started about soldering irons.
Also, for your connection between the to-220 and the board, grab some flux. Any time you can't feed in flux core solder into the joint, you should use flux. I keep a tube of thick flux and a flux pen on my own bench. Thin flux from a pen would be better for that joint but thick is best for any rework you ever need to do. Invaluable for SMD work.
For your quick connection between the keyboard and computer, grab some "DuPont cable" (actual name) for next time. That stuff sneaks into all my projects.
Soldering, either if you're doing it yourself, or watching other people do it, is just so satisfying!
7:38
Do Yourself It kit?
"Made it this far". Hah! I'm always starving for more 8bit guy videos... So please, keep em comming ;)
Yeah, the whole “In Transit - Arriving Late” has been happening a lot lately; most likely due to COVID. It seems to be completely random too.
I’ve ordered things at the same time and one will arrive on time and the other is delayed by at least a week. It usually happens to things you’re hoping to get quickly. 🙄
Most likely due to the US president installing a lackey as postmaster with the intent of throwing an election.
I used, ages ago, the version of PET without the built-in cassette deck and with a more normal(-ish) keyboard as an instrument controller in a laboratory, because of its GP-IB (IEEE-488) bus. This is _really_ a blast from the past. Thank you!
I have a Commodore monochrome monitor.
Having had a Vic 20 in my teen years and using it, cleaning it out after spilled drinks and generally being excited made me become a computer tech.
"In Transit, Arriving Late"
That's been the story of my eBay life for the past three weeks...
2:11 Detective 8-Bit Guy on the case.
"Planet X0 : Origins" . This time, you'll defend Earth from a Protoids invasion !
Actually, in the official story from the game trailer X0 would not encounter any protoids, only lower grade enemies.
The PETSCII robots tile editor is a pretty cool proof of concept it’s pretty neat overall Love that stuff LOL😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃
A trick that I was taught in the 70s was to solder in on corner of the chip. Then Use something like a tissue and your finger of the other hand and press and reflow. Check to see if it is in flat. The do the same on the diagonal opposite corner. I did all the sockets. When all are in and flat, I would begin doing the rest of the pins in a group. We did soldering at the time to mil speck. Our inspector looked for pin holes and other defects. This was for prototypes.
Yeh, what happened with Commander X16. Because the last update for that I can find was like two years ago. And so I thought that project had been abandoned.
It would be nice to have update on that.
@@762rk95tp Well, you've had a stealth X16 update in this video. I'm sure there will be more to come
Then I think you missed Part II, it's only 11 months old, not 2 years :D
Ok so it's a year, and no updates? Is this project dead or what? What exactly is happening with Commander X16?
@@michaelturner4457
Well, there's less than 6 six guys working on it in their spare time and it's undergone at least one ground-up redesign. So, maybe just be patient?
Do you have any pets in your home?
8-bit guy: Yes
he has a lot of cats soo you are right
Yeah but they are not in good shape. I have one rotting in my basement because it's missing parts... That can get pretty bleak pretty quick haha
@@gglobensky I hope you are talking about a computer. Otherwise it sounds gruesome.
My cat pet is missing all her tooth parts, she wanders around with her tongue sticking half out "merrrrrwwwww! MERRRRRRRRRW!"
Yeah she's drunk. So what.
Ooooo! Sharp display!
Tom Carlson you were first.
Two points: 1) You've forgotten to remove the protection sticker from the speaker. 2) On the original PET, you could adjust the 6845 timing registers in software to fix things like the screen centring with a poke or two. I have no idea if they've emulated that properly with the ATMEL though. I'd go ask the makers.
Now you tell me this. Where were you in 1979?
@The 8-Bit Guy
I love how you narrate these videos like they are happening in real time even though you already know whats gonna happen. It's fun but in a dorky way. This video convinced me to try to build a kit computer. I have purchased an RC2014.
10:28
The maze program printed 10 backslashes in a row! What’s the chances of that?
@@00O3O1B
Cool.
Another victim of “slowing down the mail” I see...
I found the keyboard project alone, almost more interesting than the Mini Pet itself.
I love your map editor! I love that it even works on the 128 in 128 mode and the Amiga 4000 without an emulator (with only minor changes on BASICally any Commodore machine).
You don't need a kernel modification for a better layout. You just have to do what modern custom keyboards do: have a micro-processor emit the key codes, and let software handle the rest.
That way you can use any layout you want, the kernel won't care.
TFW you are completely, irreversibly addicted to 8-bit guy content and he finally releases a new episode
The feeling is amplified when applied to 8-bit Keys lol
His videos take long to come out, but are well worth the wait!!
You must be South African, no?