Thank you for making this video!!! You have a few that I don't have in my collection and I really appreciate seeing them! Genuine Alizarin Crimson (PR83) is my absolute favorite red and I've been collecting it in as many brands as possible as well as their permanent substitutes. And I am really annoyed with Sennelier! I feel like if it's actually PR83 it needs to be Alizarin Crimson and the replacement should be named something else (their genuine PR83 is called "Alizarin Crimson Lake") I find all permanent alizarin crimsons and replacements for the genuine pigment to be lacking a special "je ne sais quoi" that the genuine pigment has - they all look flat and don't glow the way PR83 does, even those from PV19. My favorite hue match is the Daler Rowney Alizarin Crimson Hue made from PR176 then Da Vinci's Paul Jackson Series Kathmandu Alizarin or the Alizarin Crimson Quinacridone both from PV19. Most of the hues I have collected personally lean too brown/orange or have a brown/orange undertone instead of the very slightly violet undertone of genuine pigment, which I think comes from how the genuine pigment degrades as it seems to turn brown over time. Fun fact, if you use a heat gun/hair dryer too long to speed up the drying process on the genuine PR83 pigment it will turn violet (think quinacridone violet) until it cools back down.
Oh wow, I'm so in love with the hue of the Sennelier one, it has so much depth too, my goodness 🥺❤️ It's a shame it's so streaky (on cheaper paper) and so easy to lift
Could you possibly do a Quinacridone Red color showdown? I absolutely love this color, but wonder if there is a comparable color to the Da Vinci brand that is more accessible.
Thank you for this! alizarin crimson in my student sets is what I am running out of first. Exploring the artist grade/ watercolor pigment rabbit hole this past year🙈🤯😳. Your channel is so informative!
Interesting, I wasn't aware that PR206 could be any shade other than Brown Madder (specifically W&N, also difficult to rewet). Daniel Smith also has Quin Burnt Scarlet using PR206 which leans more towards brown madder in tone. Pigment nerds unite!
Thank you for producing this excellent video on the most frustrating color Alizarin Crimson (PR83). My additional question is regarding the effect of fugitive pigment PR177 contained in the Daniel Smith, Roman Szmal, Qor, and Old Holland paints as well as fugitive pigment PY83 in the Sennelier sample. Do these paints with their lack of PR83 have enough lightfastness irrespective of the other fugitive pigments?
Hey! Revisiting because I just bought another tube of PR83 (D.S. this time) and I keep looking in comments to see if there's a better substitute. I saw your Q and you make a great point: anything made with PR 177 (anthro red) is going to be disappearing too, so don't waste your money. (So far, I've avoided that one except an intentional purchase of Moonglow, which I knew was fugitive with the PR 177, but though, "eh, $10" ...down the DRAIN! LOL!) It's so sad to see a painting you work hard on and get JUST right slowly (or quickly) turn to grotesque-ness because of a company's fake LF ratings. PR 83 is far prettier than PR 177 (imo) and fine for sketchbooks or artwork we're going to have printed. (Which I don't do except for my own database, to see if my painting ability has improved over time.)
The M Graham PR264 version is the most staining color I've ever used, especially on student grade papers. I have to work very quickly with it to avoid multiple hard edges, so I rarely use it even though it's a very pretty crimson color.
I am not a huge fan of pr264, it is a bit opaque for me and I prefer a transparent crimson color. I purchased pyrrol rubin from holbein and found that despite it seems appealing when freshly added to paper surface it became much duller when dried.
For those who are concerned about lightfastness, any watercolor paint with a Anthraquinone pigment "PR177," that's a Synthetic Organic Anthradquinone; is only going to be marginally lightfast. Anthraquinone Red PR177 (although I adore that red) is only marginally lightfast. Much less than PR264 and many other cool reds. Maybe not as fugitive as real PR83 Alizarin Crimson, which is the natural Anthraquinone pigment, isolated from the madder root. But worse than other substitutes. Daniel Smiths lightfast rating on PR177 is wrong. Time and time again, independent sources find it fading terribly. I love Schmincke's Alizarin Crimson. it's really a synthetic Alizarin Lake pigment, (PR83.1. Not the organic PR83. PR83.1 and PR177 are BOTH Synthetic Anthraquinone pigments! Alizarin Crimson is simply PR83 (orgainic). Alizarin Lake (PR83.1) is totally synthetic. Anthraquinone red (PR177) is Synthetic Organic Anthradquinone. I love Schmincke Alizarin PR83.1 the most but its lightfastness is not great but it is better than PR83 or PR177 according to a few independent sources. I've tried to mix my own Schmincke Alizarin but its a hard one to duplicate because of that hint of warmth and cool at the same time. Have you tried DaVinci? Their DaVinci Alizarin is PV19, closest in hue to the real deal and quite lightfast.
I really like the perm alizarin, its a nice colour. I have been eying the OH one for a while, I know an artist who paints with it and it amazing in use. However I have around 6 5ml tubes of the W&N one (made in England) that I came with ebay lots so I think I'm covered for this colour for a few decades.
Hey, Oto ❤️ So I'm covered in red paint 😂 and honestly I think I've decided I just like the stupid DS PV19 Quin Rose *enough* (a lot; I have a lot of it). I got tubes today, some smushed, and I have tried tests with splashes and mass tones whatnot: do you think Schminke's Ruby Red Deep is close to PR 83's hue (it's the PR 264 like M.Grahams, which I also have, but I also don't enjoy painting with the M.Graham PR 264 - gloopy!). It's just that it costs me an arm and a leg to pick up Schiminke tubes (I really like Schminke regular Ruby Red, which I think is supposed to be "quin rose" in other brands... it's nice because it's not as "strong" as quin rose can be). NYC shop adds quite a profit margin to the Schminke tubes and I'm so tired of wasting cash. Would you compare just PR 264s from the brands (since I think those are as close to a "Permanent Alizarin" as anyone is going to get). I know it goes off kilter of this lovely series (paint NAMES), but I think you have the paints on hand? Just a request! 🤪❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ (Next request would get my head chopped off 😂 but yes, PV 19 "quin rose" hues!!! Only because some are absolute JUNK! I stick with the DS Quin Rose, Schminke Ruby Red, and Sennelier's Rose Madder Lake, and each are good enough to stay in anyone's reds palette imo, but *some PV19s are junk!* I think that would be so valuable!!!) Blessed day to you!
I noticed that I have some of the same pigments as above, in the following paints: PR 264, Van Gogh, Madder Lake Deep PR187, White Nights, Madder Lake Light PR176, Mission Gold, Rose Madder. I prefer these to my only Aliz, fugitive PR83, Turner. So Madder colors could be a substitute for Alizarin Crimson
I've tended to steer clear of Alizarin Crimson both genuine and permanent versions, but recently started looking into the permanent version regarding lightfastness. Daniel Smith will not be an option with their fugative PR177. And I've just come across a video by W&N (their lightfast test of both) where they mention the permanent being a mix of PR206 and PV19! I don't know if this is a new formula they are releasing or not? 🤷♀️ That said, the W&N is looking pretty good for lightfastness over on the Kim Crick website.
Ooh interesting. I only have Daniel Smith one that I'm not that happy with. It's pretty on its own but I just don't know where to utilize it in mixes. It's not quite cool, not warm either. It's quite unpredictable in my palette, does not mix as a standard cool red. My go to pink-red is Quin Coral - it's the perfect middle ground in everything for me, I can only have that and be content
I think this is overall a problem with permanent versions of alizarin crimson. Its essentially a “muddy” mixer. Works decently for landscapes (my current preference to paint) BUT i cant get it to do very clean mixes. I have had da vincis and daniel smiths and i remember being so disappointed by the mixes i was getting when so many artists say its a staple on their palette in all mediums, especially for landscape. I am starting to use quin rose instead. If i want a more muted color i can easily mute it or use a warmer red. I guess it confuses me why so many people cling to alizarin when “modern” colors are much cleaner. My favorite saying “its easy to desaturate a color but you cant bring the saturation back”
@@lindseyB_33 Yeah I initially bought it as my "cool red" after such recommendation but it's a very middle red if anything. I think the original pigment of pure Alizarin mixed more like a cool hue, some swatches I've seen have decent purples and violets. I can not mix any shade of purple with the Permanent version. It was almost identical to my Perylene red I initially bought as a "warmer" red - only figured this out months later when I properly memorized the pigments and became familiar with the swatches. Waste of money for me unfortunately, but maybe if someone uses it for warmer mixes it will be more useful
Have you guys tried the Schminke Permanent Carmine? It's a more red PV19. I mention it because it mixes beautifully, though it is a slightly more opaque version of a PV19. It's cooler than most of the ones in the video, and if I want it slightly more warm leaning, like a true deep red, I mix in a bit of White Nights Venice Purple (their Perylene Maroon, which is stunning). ☺️
Do you know of any brands that have a color similar to Mission Crimson Lake? It uses PR202 but is seems more Violet than other brands that use the same pigment.
the Daniel Smith one is gorgeous! by the way: if I remember well, the W&N one should also have PR N/A in it, even if it's not listed on the tube (maybe check on handprint website and also on others PR N/A tubes, which should not list anything too)
Thanks for bringing this up. I was about to comment on the pigment composition as well. For those of you who are interested, the main pigment in W+N Permanent Alizarin Crimson is Quinacridone Pyrrolidone. W+N’s Permanent Carmine is made entirely of Quinacridone Pyrrolidone, or so I understand.
Nothing beats the original..... even tho its not super light fast..... But my own tests have shown me it is. The Hue/permanent versions kinda match the mass tone but not lighter washes
It's rare to see Sennelier doing great, unfortunately. I would like to see Van gogh paints Instead, pretty sure will do a great job compared to these professional grade paints though. Great job Oto, thanks for sharing.
Before I buy ANY paint, I watch your videos. You're seriously a GIANT resource to the community!
Woah! Thank you for making this one! I was definitely curious about the difference between brands.
Thank you, I have M. Graham permanent alizarin crimson, and I love it. Very vibrant, easy to wet.
Thank you for making this video!!! You have a few that I don't have in my collection and I really appreciate seeing them! Genuine Alizarin Crimson (PR83) is my absolute favorite red and I've been collecting it in as many brands as possible as well as their permanent substitutes. And I am really annoyed with Sennelier! I feel like if it's actually PR83 it needs to be Alizarin Crimson and the replacement should be named something else (their genuine PR83 is called "Alizarin Crimson Lake") I find all permanent alizarin crimsons and replacements for the genuine pigment to be lacking a special "je ne sais quoi" that the genuine pigment has - they all look flat and don't glow the way PR83 does, even those from PV19. My favorite hue match is the Daler Rowney Alizarin Crimson Hue made from PR176 then Da Vinci's Paul Jackson Series Kathmandu Alizarin or the Alizarin Crimson Quinacridone both from PV19. Most of the hues I have collected personally lean too brown/orange or have a brown/orange undertone instead of the very slightly violet undertone of genuine pigment, which I think comes from how the genuine pigment degrades as it seems to turn brown over time. Fun fact, if you use a heat gun/hair dryer too long to speed up the drying process on the genuine PR83 pigment it will turn violet (think quinacridone violet) until it cools back down.
Oh wow, I'm so in love with the hue of the Sennelier one, it has so much depth too, my goodness 🥺❤️ It's a shame it's so streaky (on cheaper paper) and so easy to lift
Yet so beautiful on hot press paper ......
Could you possibly do a Quinacridone Red color showdown? I absolutely love this color, but wonder if there is a comparable color to the Da Vinci brand that is more accessible.
Nice comparison. :-) Gotta watch again with full attention!
Thank you for this! alizarin crimson in my student sets is what I am running out of first. Exploring the artist grade/ watercolor pigment rabbit hole this past year🙈🤯😳. Your channel is so informative!
Great comparison. Nice to see how they look next to Alizarin Crimson genuine also. 🙏
I really appreciate your videos! I didn’t know there was a permanent DS. I wish I had found your videos before I ordered the not permanent AC.
Interesting, I wasn't aware that PR206 could be any shade other than Brown Madder (specifically W&N, also difficult to rewet). Daniel Smith also has Quin Burnt Scarlet using PR206 which leans more towards brown madder in tone. Pigment nerds unite!
Once again, THANK YOU FOR ALLLLL YOUR EFFORTS🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻❤️
Thank you for producing this excellent video on the most frustrating color Alizarin Crimson (PR83). My additional question is regarding the effect of fugitive pigment PR177 contained in the Daniel Smith, Roman Szmal, Qor, and Old Holland paints as well as fugitive pigment PY83 in the Sennelier sample. Do these paints with their lack of PR83 have enough lightfastness irrespective of the other fugitive pigments?
Hey! Revisiting because I just bought another tube of PR83 (D.S. this time) and I keep looking in comments to see if there's a better substitute. I saw your Q and you make a great point: anything made with PR 177 (anthro red) is going to be disappearing too, so don't waste your money. (So far, I've avoided that one except an intentional purchase of Moonglow, which I knew was fugitive with the PR 177, but though, "eh, $10" ...down the DRAIN! LOL!)
It's so sad to see a painting you work hard on and get JUST right slowly (or quickly) turn to grotesque-ness because of a company's fake LF ratings. PR 83 is far prettier than PR 177 (imo) and fine for sketchbooks or artwork we're going to have printed. (Which I don't do except for my own database, to see if my painting ability has improved over time.)
The M Graham PR264 version is the most staining color I've ever used, especially on student grade papers. I have to work very quickly with it to avoid multiple hard edges, so I rarely use it even though it's a very pretty crimson color.
I am not a huge fan of pr264, it is a bit opaque for me and I prefer a transparent crimson color. I purchased pyrrol rubin from holbein and found that despite it seems appealing when freshly added to paper surface it became much duller when dried.
For those who are concerned about lightfastness, any watercolor paint with a Anthraquinone pigment "PR177," that's a Synthetic Organic Anthradquinone; is only going to be marginally lightfast. Anthraquinone Red PR177 (although I adore that red) is only marginally lightfast. Much less than PR264 and many other cool reds. Maybe not as fugitive as real PR83 Alizarin Crimson, which is the natural Anthraquinone pigment, isolated from the madder root. But worse than other substitutes. Daniel Smiths lightfast rating on PR177 is wrong. Time and time again, independent sources find it fading terribly. I love Schmincke's Alizarin Crimson. it's really a synthetic Alizarin Lake pigment, (PR83.1. Not the organic PR83. PR83.1 and PR177 are BOTH Synthetic Anthraquinone pigments! Alizarin Crimson is simply PR83 (orgainic). Alizarin Lake (PR83.1) is totally synthetic. Anthraquinone red (PR177) is Synthetic Organic Anthradquinone. I love Schmincke Alizarin PR83.1 the most but its lightfastness is not great but it is better than PR83 or PR177 according to a few independent sources. I've tried to mix my own Schmincke Alizarin but its a hard one to duplicate because of that hint of warmth and cool at the same time. Have you tried DaVinci? Their DaVinci Alizarin is PV19, closest in hue to the real deal and quite lightfast.
Oooo! I love this! Definitely wanted to know what the hype of alizarin crimson was.
I really like the perm alizarin, its a nice colour. I have been eying the OH one for a while, I know an artist who paints with it and it amazing in use. However I have around 6 5ml tubes of the W&N one (made in England) that I came with ebay lots so I think I'm covered for this colour for a few decades.
The Winsor and Newton one is a staple for me. Never had any problems with it :)
Hey, Oto ❤️ So I'm covered in red paint 😂 and honestly I think I've decided I just like the stupid DS PV19 Quin Rose *enough* (a lot; I have a lot of it). I got tubes today, some smushed, and I have tried tests with splashes and mass tones whatnot: do you think Schminke's Ruby Red Deep is close to PR 83's hue (it's the PR 264 like M.Grahams, which I also have, but I also don't enjoy painting with the M.Graham PR 264 - gloopy!). It's just that it costs me an arm and a leg to pick up Schiminke tubes (I really like Schminke regular Ruby Red, which I think is supposed to be "quin rose" in other brands... it's nice because it's not as "strong" as quin rose can be). NYC shop adds quite a profit margin to the Schminke tubes and I'm so tired of wasting cash.
Would you compare just PR 264s from the brands (since I think those are as close to a "Permanent Alizarin" as anyone is going to get). I know it goes off kilter of this lovely series (paint NAMES), but I think you have the paints on hand? Just a request! 🤪❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
(Next request would get my head chopped off 😂 but yes, PV 19 "quin rose" hues!!! Only because some are absolute JUNK! I stick with the DS Quin Rose, Schminke Ruby Red, and Sennelier's Rose Madder Lake, and each are good enough to stay in anyone's reds palette imo, but *some PV19s are junk!* I think that would be so valuable!!!) Blessed day to you!
Da Vinci looks like a very good match for the W&N original.
Thank you so much, this is very helpful! :)
Hi, if I become a patron can I still buy the permanent alizarin crimson dot card? Or was it part of the monthly dot card?
Thank you for another amazing video! 💕💕💕
I noticed that I have some of the same pigments as above, in the following paints:
PR 264, Van Gogh, Madder Lake Deep
PR187, White Nights, Madder Lake Light
PR176, Mission Gold, Rose Madder.
I prefer these to my only Aliz, fugitive PR83, Turner.
So Madder colors could be a substitute for Alizarin Crimson
I've tended to steer clear of Alizarin Crimson both genuine and permanent versions, but recently started looking into the permanent version regarding lightfastness. Daniel Smith will not be an option with their fugative PR177. And I've just come across a video by W&N (their lightfast test of both) where they mention the permanent being a mix of PR206 and PV19! I don't know if this is a new formula they are releasing or not? 🤷♀️ That said, the W&N is looking pretty good for lightfastness over on the Kim Crick website.
Schmincke has it too , its called Permanent Karmin, a PV 19 !!!
Was the Windsor and Newton from a pan or tube?
Ooh interesting. I only have Daniel Smith one that I'm not that happy with. It's pretty on its own but I just don't know where to utilize it in mixes. It's not quite cool, not warm either. It's quite unpredictable in my palette, does not mix as a standard cool red. My go to pink-red is Quin Coral - it's the perfect middle ground in everything for me, I can only have that and be content
I have similar issues with my QoR. It somehow doesn’t mix well and dulls a lot when drying.
I think this is overall a problem with permanent versions of alizarin crimson. Its essentially a “muddy” mixer. Works decently for landscapes (my current preference to paint) BUT i cant get it to do very clean mixes. I have had da vincis and daniel smiths and i remember being so disappointed by the mixes i was getting when so many artists say its a staple on their palette in all mediums, especially for landscape.
I am starting to use quin rose instead. If i want a more muted color i can easily mute it or use a warmer red. I guess it confuses me why so many people cling to alizarin when “modern” colors are much cleaner.
My favorite saying “its easy to desaturate a color but you cant bring the saturation back”
@@lindseyB_33 Yeah I initially bought it as my "cool red" after such recommendation but it's a very middle red if anything. I think the original pigment of pure Alizarin mixed more like a cool hue, some swatches I've seen have decent purples and violets. I can not mix any shade of purple with the Permanent version. It was almost identical to my Perylene red I initially bought as a "warmer" red - only figured this out months later when I properly memorized the pigments and became familiar with the swatches. Waste of money for me unfortunately, but maybe if someone uses it for warmer mixes it will be more useful
Have you guys tried the Schminke Permanent Carmine? It's a more red PV19. I mention it because it mixes beautifully, though it is a slightly more opaque version of a PV19. It's cooler than most of the ones in the video, and if I want it slightly more warm leaning, like a true deep red, I mix in a bit of White Nights Venice Purple (their Perylene Maroon, which is stunning). ☺️
@@jennw6809 Yes!! Isn't it!? It's so stunning! ☺️
YAAS! Thank you thank you thank you! ❤️
Do you know of any brands that have a color similar to Mission Crimson Lake? It uses PR202 but is seems more Violet than other brands that use the same pigment.
the Daniel Smith one is gorgeous!
by the way: if I remember well, the W&N one should also have PR N/A in it, even if it's not listed on the tube (maybe check on handprint website and also on others PR N/A tubes, which should not list anything too)
Thanks for bringing this up. I was about to comment on the pigment composition as well. For those of you who are interested, the main pigment in W+N Permanent Alizarin Crimson is Quinacridone Pyrrolidone. W+N’s Permanent Carmine is made entirely of Quinacridone Pyrrolidone, or so I understand.
Nothing beats the original..... even tho its not super light fast..... But my own tests have shown me it is. The Hue/permanent versions kinda match the mass tone but not lighter washes
DS is my favorite
I wonder how would this one look in W and N gouache...
It's rare to see Sennelier doing great, unfortunately. I would like to see Van gogh paints Instead, pretty sure will do a great job compared to these professional grade paints though. Great job Oto, thanks for sharing.