Thank you for the conversation, Jakob! I think that we certainly have many more points to explore than we had time for. We'll definitely have to schedule a part 2. I've also learned quite a bit about how you approach development, and I believe that many would benefit from these practices on the OT side. I hope that you continue to get this point across in our industry.
Thank you Vladimir for the questions (and content); thank you Jakob for the responses (and content). For anyone else watching, the entire conversation is worthwhile, but for the 10-15minutes starting at 1h15m or so, content density jumped by perhaps an order of magnitude, so stay through to the end: TDD/Automated testing; get a MicroLogix or S7 at home to get into the industry as a career; fail fast and early, not at the FAT; lack of platform-specific experience should not be a dealbreaker in hiring; "tunnel vision" (I call this "One of almost every human's biggest problem is the assumption that they are normative."). This has only been up for a day, but Jakob's comments about how little OT-related content exists online tracks well with the less than 1000 views and forty-eight upvotes. Perhaps the industry is really that small?
Fail fast and fail early is a fantastic opportunity that is vastly under-utilized in our industry. The common misconception is that we can't replace the existing tests with writing low-level tests, and that's the point. You shouldn't! You still need the higher level testing! The low-level testing will built quality into your deliverables, and confidence will go up. The industry is very small compared to the IT-industry (at least in terms comparing pure software development), though it's not small enough that we can't be in a position where we can't help each other to improve. Also, we're very lucky in the OT as the IT industry has been grinding this for quite a while, and there is so much we can basically copy-paste over from IT. Thanks for your feedback!
Great conversation. I noticed that you haven't talked about who is the better or more innovative vendor, but rather the conversation focused more on good software practices... no matter what PLC, IPC or PC you are programming. Good show!
37:06 Dude, exactly the same thoughts I have. In the beginning I thought, that automated testing is a MUST. I thought about leaving the OT-industry pretty often, because it feels like OT is still in the stone ages compared to IT, and if you want to implement good practices, there are so many hurdles. I made the call to stay and help improve the industry and am now a freelancer and help my customers to overcome those hurdles. I feel like the future developments in OT are so obvious and it is hard to understand, why there is much resistance to change.
Hello Jakob, congratulations, I hope you continue to spread and promote test-based development TDD and also CI/CD, since I also think it can contribute a lot to the world of OT..., keep it up..., good luck...... 💯👍
I want to see a "deep dive" into the hardware!!! Every podcast, UA-cam video I see where the creators are supposed to be comparing vendors (Rockwell vs. Beckhoff, etc..), all they want to talk about is the software engineering tools. Enough about software!! There's two parts to it - software and hardware. It's time to get into the hardware - CPUs, I/O, field busses, etc. I can tell you from experience that there are huge differences in the hardware between vendors. The hardware makes all the difference between a smooth project, and a complex and expensive one.
Cyber security is starting to bite automation in the rear now 😬. Nist framework. When delivering software there must be a sbom. If you do an update you need to provide a change log 😂.
I thoroughly enjoyed this! Will certainly watch again.
Thank you for the conversation, Jakob! I think that we certainly have many more points to explore than we had time for. We'll definitely have to schedule a part 2. I've also learned quite a bit about how you approach development, and I believe that many would benefit from these practices on the OT side. I hope that you continue to get this point across in our industry.
Great conversation. Thank you Vlad and Jacob
Great conversation. I hope the vendors start taking more progresive aproach with everything mentioned.
Thank you Vladimir for the questions (and content); thank you Jakob for the responses (and content).
For anyone else watching, the entire conversation is worthwhile, but for the 10-15minutes starting at 1h15m or so, content density jumped by perhaps an order of magnitude, so stay through to the end: TDD/Automated testing; get a MicroLogix or S7 at home to get into the industry as a career; fail fast and early, not at the FAT; lack of platform-specific experience should not be a dealbreaker in hiring; "tunnel vision" (I call this "One of almost every human's biggest problem is the assumption that they are normative.").
This has only been up for a day, but Jakob's comments about how little OT-related content exists online tracks well with the less than 1000 views and forty-eight upvotes. Perhaps the industry is really that small?
Fail fast and fail early is a fantastic opportunity that is vastly under-utilized in our industry. The common misconception is that we can't replace the existing tests with writing low-level tests, and that's the point. You shouldn't! You still need the higher level testing! The low-level testing will built quality into your deliverables, and confidence will go up.
The industry is very small compared to the IT-industry (at least in terms comparing pure software development), though it's not small enough that we can't be in a position where we can't help each other to improve. Also, we're very lucky in the OT as the IT industry has been grinding this for quite a while, and there is so much we can basically copy-paste over from IT. Thanks for your feedback!
Great conversation. I noticed that you haven't talked about who is the better or more innovative vendor, but rather the conversation focused more on good software practices... no matter what PLC, IPC or PC you are programming. Good show!
37:06 Dude, exactly the same thoughts I have. In the beginning I thought, that automated testing is a MUST.
I thought about leaving the OT-industry pretty often, because it feels like OT is still in the stone ages compared to IT, and if you want to implement good practices, there are so many hurdles.
I made the call to stay and help improve the industry and am now a freelancer and help my customers to overcome those hurdles. I feel like the future developments in OT are so obvious and it is hard to understand, why there is much resistance to change.
There is a huge opportunity and upside for improvement in the software development practices in the OT industry. It should only get better from now!
Thank you for an inspiring conversation.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fantastic conversation, thank you!
Thanks for listening!
Hello Jakob, congratulations, I hope you continue to spread and promote test-based development TDD and also CI/CD,
since I also think it can contribute a lot to the world of OT...,
keep it up..., good luck...... 💯👍
Thanks Victor!
I want to see a "deep dive" into the hardware!!! Every podcast, UA-cam video I see where the creators are supposed to be comparing vendors (Rockwell vs. Beckhoff, etc..), all they want to talk about is the software engineering tools. Enough about software!! There's two parts to it - software and hardware. It's time to get into the hardware - CPUs, I/O, field busses, etc. I can tell you from experience that there are huge differences in the hardware between vendors. The hardware makes all the difference between a smooth project, and a complex and expensive one.
Schneider is working on adapting IEC 61141 which is a more "open-source", event driven programming language. Any thoughts on that ?
You beautiful bastards! Awesome podcast.
Thanks Adam!
Cyber security is starting to bite automation in the rear now 😬.
Nist framework. When delivering software there must be a sbom. If you do an update you need to provide a change log 😂.
Jacob! We have company based in Europe and we're looking clients like you have. We program on Siemens and Codesys. How to find clients in that niche?