Electronic First Curtain Shutter | Ask David Bergman
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- Опубліковано 20 лип 2024
- Today's question from Trevor R. is, "What the heck is electronic first-curtain shutter, and why would I use it over the mechanical or regular electronic shutter?"
Go to www.AskDavidBergman.com to submit your own photo question, see David's gear list, and view the episode archive.
00:00 Intro
00:28 Shoot From the Pit live concert photography workshop
01:29 What is mechanical shutter?
02:13 What is electronic shutter?
03:09 Mechanical shutter pros and cons
04:38 Electronic shutter pros and cons
07:29 What is electronic first curtain shutter?
09:22 When to shoot electronic first curtain shutter
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THANKS SO MUCH FOR WATCHING! - Навчання та стиль
One more thing about EFCS is that it will make your shutter mechanism last longer, because it doesn't have to make that many moves; just close and open, where normally it closes, opens, closes and opens again. Maybe not that important for normal photography, but wildlife and sports; this will make huge difference over the years of shooting.
Thank you for all the time and effort you put into making these informative videos , I’m a newbie to photography
And do it for enjoyment , I truly appreciate how you explain things on
Your videos in a easy to understand manner , so thank you very much
Excellent, crystal-clear description of the three shutter modes.
Very helpful! I just saw EFCS in an online discussion on when/when not to use Electronic Shutter and did not know what it meant. Thank you and thanks to Trevor R. I wonder if my Sony a7IV has EFCS- I'll look. Nevertheless, I agree with one opinion which is: Only use Electronic shutter when you need silence unless you're using a top-of-the-line camera with fast sensor readout speed. This sentiment is due to the disadvantages you mentioned like difficulty with fast moving subjects, artifacts & banding, and no-flash capability.
That was really informative David. Thank you. Might have to switch to Electronic 1st Curtain soon.
Thank you so much David and Adorama guys! Very informative!
Yup, perfect explanation, David. Thanks again for a super video for us to continue to learn and eliminate confusion. Wonderful. Have fun on the next tour.
Thanks!
Excellent explanation. Thanks, David!
Hello David, it is a great video and i found on my R6 when i use electronic first shutter, my flash works and i do not need HSS either. so thank you for explaining that!
Excellent explanation! Thank you..
On my Sony A7R3 I usually have efcs turned on (rear curtain is still mechanical), and enjoy the way it shoots. When shooting in high speed sync at fast shutter speeds, I'll find I have to turn it off to avoid some banding issues. I also shot a play using "silent" mode (pure electronic shutter) and experienced shutter lag which was annoying when trying to capture specific moments. Still, pretty amazing technology and hope it continues to improve!
Super easy to understand, thanks!
You are awesome - what a great overview, thank you! 🎉
My Sony a7c is EFCS and the image quality and video are very good. I use silent mode (full electronic) only for wildlife outside. Inside depending of the light flicking, electronic can produce banding if you don’t adapt your shutter speed. I always go EFCS for inside. The system seems to work really well.
Hey David! Thanks so much for the great video. Lucky for me my Nikon D500 still performs like a champ even though it's been discontinued :( As always, thank you for putting this video up for everyone to learn.
Yup… my D500 is coming out of storage these days, in spite of having mirrorless Nikon and several Fujis (even the X-H2S). The newest Fuji does beat the use of the D500, but for pretty much any other camera, the D500 is tops, and Nikons ridiculous implementation of autofocus modes in mirrorless (essentially the same limited focus point sizes as in their DSLR), makes the Z6 II the first camera to candidate for being sold off… it delivers zero value over the other cameras, and many more limits on my use
For some reason I don't like Electronic First Curtain Shutter, and have been shooting MECHANICAL on the R5 and R3 bodies. I switch to ELECTRONIC when needed, but that's only if I need silence, or when shooting wide open in direct sunlight and need more than 1/8000sec shutter speed.
Wow the info about shooting electronic 1st curtain paired with fast lenses wide open plus high SS and the weird bokeh is a real thing. Thanks for this info. It does happen to me when I shoot sports with my 70-200 at 2.8
Great explanation of all three types of shutters. I am planning to get the Canon R3 but had some questions about using the electric shutter. You clear that up this coverage of the subject of type of shutters. It clear on type of lense one is using but what about reflex lenses would be affected. Good job David
Lots of info, just what I was looking for. Thanks
Excellent explanation !
You youngster. Older (pre 1990) SLR cameras had actual cloth curtains that traversed across the film plane. I think it was the Nikon F8000 that introduced the multi-blade titanium shutter curtains.
Best explanation of this ive seen. Thank you. I have the Canon R6 and R7. I use the R6 for landscape and R7 for bird photography. Both will be set on EFC from now on and perhaps Electronic for birds in flight.
You will get distorted wings on birds if you use electronic shutter. They will be bent and in weird positions, but you can give it a go and let me know! I also have Canon R7 since 15.5. 2023
As always, this is an excellent explanation. I now have a better understanding of what it does and of the name (I think I like "mechanical 2nd curtain" name better...). You've convinced me to give a try.
Thanks for your good work!
Just be careful not to confuse mechanical 2nd curtain with a completely different thing called rear curtain sync or second curtain sync pertaining to flash. The latter has to do with when a flash fires (as soon as the first curtain has opened or just before the second curtain closes, nothing to do with the topic discussed in the above video).
The cameras that work like with first curtain shutter without option and choice are modern Medium Format cameras with leaf shutter.
The most advanced leaf shutters are mechanically limited at 1/1000s at shutter speeds above the camera switches automatically to a "first curtain like" modus where the sensor capture start is delayed after the opening of the shutter leaves. (at slower speeds than 1/1000s the sensor capture starts just before leaves opening)
The Hasselblad's H6, A6, X1D, X1DII, X2D, 907X work like this.
Thanks Dave, great video!
Great video, many thanks David. Really enjoyed it. I have a question about EFCS and banding - in your other video about banding in gig photography you mention there's less chance of it happening using a mechanical shutter and more chance using an electronic shutter. So what would the chances be using EFCS be? The same as mechanical or electronic?
Thank You! Good Info
From what I remember ; Electronic shutter also brings down the color space from 14 bit to 12 bit. I wonder if that applies to Electronic 1st curt?
super informative video and explains EFCS well, also, I'd love to take one of your workshops!
Thanks David for taking my question! As a penny-pincher I like to think I’m extending my cameras shutter life by some significant amount by using Electronic First Curtain or the full Electronic shutter…. Not that I’ve ever had a shutter go out on me yet 😂
Same 😂
Yea, it's pretty rare to blow out a shutter these days. You'll likely upgrade bodies before the shutter goes.
@@DavidBergmanPhoto I got a 7D ii on 85k shots four years ago and I estimate I've put a further 250k on it and its working just fine. (touch wood :) ). If it blows out at some point in the future, I'll salute it for its service and retire it. I have a R6 ii on the way so it kind of makes the &d ii irrelevant since we shoot sports in jpg with no editing and I can use 1.6 x crop mode if I need the extra reach.
@@stubonesI'm sorry but... I'm just a bit in shock that you're going to use a $3000 camera to shoot untouched jpegs. I just don't see the point of a camera like that if you're not going to shoot RAW and then edit it. I really don't mean to attack you, I'm just baffled.
The explanation of the different mechanisms was spot on and súper clear. The only thing that would have made it perfect are examples of the effects mentioned!
Thanks, David! Great tutorial. The Canon R7 has the worst mechanical shutter sound I've ever heard. It's like a bucket of bolts being shaken up. I have used electronic (with sound) on a few outings. After your explanations, I will switch to Electronic 1st Curtain. If I remember correctly, that was the default when I purchased the camera.
Thanks for explaining what “electronic first curtain shutter “ means. Thanks to Canon and the new R8, I have been trying to figure out what this means. I almost thought you did not answer the question but stayed all the way towards the end of the video, then the aha moment came!
R8 is the reason me too looking for shutters !
On my R5 it is in electronic first curtain 80-90% of the time. In fact, the only time I go full mechanical is when I need to tether in Lightroom. And I only use full electronic for fast birds in flight.
Thank you im going to start using first curtain now i just didn't know what it was before
One question David is whether EFC eliminates rolling shutter effect...
Great video!!!!!
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks for the info Dave. I'm new to digital world. I have been shooting film with a nikon FE2 up until this year. Just purchased a Sony alpha 7iv. Seems strange not charging film lol.
Kinda nice, right?
Luckily I don't have any issue w/ My EOS-RP I do rarely experience banding on high shutter speeds w/ my godox flash/strobe. There's only EFCS on RP and I heard R8 is also EFCS only.
Thanks so much for the insightful video. I have a question though, I shoot high-speed sports events. Kickboxing to be precise. I don't wanna miss a moment, so I choose electronic with 30 fps. Would you choose that as well?
If you use a flash and set your flash on second curtain, what settings should you use on the camera then? Electronic first curtain still?
I normally shoot mechanical shutter 100% of the time but I'm going to try elec. 1st curtain to see if I can notice a difference. I got scared off of that because of the bokeh issue but I'll try it out
Simply put....EXELLENT
David, helpful, but how might I consider these different options for shooting real estate with/without flash. I use Sony A7iv and GoDox for the flash window pull.
I want to use an external non-dedicated studio flash system with my R3. I used a meter to determine my flash setting at 1/200 shutterspeed at f/9. It appears that the flash is not firing at at the right time, my frame is black. When I set the camera to 1/20 of a second I get a properly exposed frame. The indication, to me, is that the flash is going off too soon at 1/200 but at 1/20 it exposes properly, more like when the "shutter" is fully open. I tried the electronic, mechanical and first curtain electronic shutter settings.
One thing to note, is that using EFCS locks out some camera features
is true that we have to turn off electronic first curtain shutter mode if using a flash in HSS? and just use mechanical shutter?
Hi, thank you for the video. One quick question that you didn't cover. Are there any image quality benefits to using EFCS or Mechanical over ES? For example, lower noise or anything in this realm?
some graphics or videos showing what the shutter does would help so much.
what about banding with 1st elect. courtain?
Hi David. Very informative as always. What I have read regarding using these various shutter types (other than banding issues and distortion) is that in order to get the best dynamic range the mechanical shutter needs to used. Any experience with this? Thanks.
Yes this is true and likely affects all except the top line bodies. It’s beginning to get a bit confusing now; the best shutter mode including the best image bit depth
This is simply because the shutter being closed on a mechanical shutter system gives the sensor a true reference for what absolute black should be in the context of the rest of the sensor data in the frame. An electronic shutter has no reference for black other than artificially truncating data that's dimmer than a certain value, because by definition there is nothing covering the sensor at any point during the exposure itself. Furthermore, some manufacturers have programmed their cameras to shoot with a reduced bit depth in electronic shutter mode in order to speed up the sensor readout speed to compensate for rolling shutter-less bit depth=less dynamic range. But unless that's the case on your specific camera, the difference in DR is really not that significant, we're talking like a third of a stop at the absolute most.
@@CrucibleMediaLabs Thanks for taking the time to type that. I was curious how much dynamic range we lose, because I've never noticed it.
fantastic info, but does the elec. 1st curtain shutter mode negate the rolling shutter/jello effect?
Showing examples/how to would have been great.
Great video! ..... But how much is did canon pay'd u for referring only to their products?
Can you use the Eos R3 in high speed sync in full electronic mode?
Electronic First Curtain 👍😎
I’m not smart enough to know when I should and shouldn’t use it, so I just leave it off. I rarely shoot on a tripod so shutter shock isn’t a big deal. LED lights are everywhere and they wreak havoc with banding whenever I shoot indoors with electronic shutter. So, I just leave it off. Im sure the technology will continue to improve.
I had always used Electronic First Curtain shutter with my Canon R5 because I didn't like the silent Electronic shutter or it filling up my memory cards so fast. Now, I have the R7 and it has a very loud and strange sounding Electronic First Curtain shutter so I use Electronic shutter because they allow us to add sound via a volume setting. My issue is that it distorts most of my birds in flight images or trees and fences in background. I now like the 30fps to get the best wing position. Any suggestions?
Give and take. You can't get 30 fps with mechanical shutter (yet!).
Does we get lines while using 1st electric curtain with high speed sync ? Please give answer. 🙏
You can get banding in any shutter mode. It’s severely reduced in mechanical and electronic first curtain, but you still might see it when photographing certain lights.
👍🏻
EFCS all day every day!
On my Canon 90D if I set shutter mode to Electronic while in Live View (see Menu/Shoot4) and then push the DRIVE button, the high and low continuous shooting options are grayed out. Any idea why Canon did this? Is there a hardware limitation that prevents continuous shooting in Electronic shutter mode? See the user's manual, page 243, near the bottom of the page, which mentions this limitation.
Is the electronic first curtain shutter better than electric 20?
I got Canon R5.
Thanks
I'm planning to upgrade my 77d to either EOS R7 or EOS R8 as these two are on my price range.
I'm just a hobbyist not a pro one that's why my limit for a new body is 1500USD.
I'm leaning toward EOS R8 since it's a full frame but it does not have mechanical shutter.
Saw your video when you demonstrated the difference between electronic and mechanical using a drone and I'm worried.
Will the electronic 1st curtain solve that issue?
My current lenses are Tamron 70-200mm f2.8 G2 and Tamron 35mm f1.4.
Yes - electronic first curtain will minimize rolling shutter issues.
I heard that eletronic shutter or the hybrid mode reduces the dynamic range to post treatment. Is that true?
At 8:15 into the video you mentioned R5, did yyou mean R5 or R3?
I prefer Elec first-curtain shutter.. I like taking two or three shots for the same photo in case if it blurs.
will electronic curtain shutter increase shutter life of SOny a73 or any camera?
The question that I have with the electronic first curtain is: Do you still end up with the bending of straight objects that are in motion like a baseball player swinging a bat?
Nope. Because the exposure is cut off by the closing of the shutter curtain, which is much faster than electronically reading the pixels row by row off the sensor.
@@DavidBergmanPhoto Thanks, that is what I had hoped.
It must be still possible if the swing is fast enough, and big enough in the frame, and it's moving perpendicular to the way the shutter moves. Rolling shutter effects happened long before digital cameras.
@@barneylaurance1865 True, but it's virtually unnoticeable.
Is one of these shuttermodes the reason, why I get "rainbow"-lines when shooting at concerts when they use led-light (red, yellow)? I normally use my 70-200m at f.2.8 and a shutter spead of lets say 600/s or higher. Annoys the heck out of me when I go through my pictures I can't use because of that.
Banding is much worse with the (fully) electronic shutter. Shoot mechanical to reduce it, but it's won't go away at that shutter speed. The only way to eliminate it is to slow down your shutter speed below whatever the lights are pulsing at. In my experience, 1/125 or slower works well. Obviously not practical for every situation, but with a relatively static subject, you can make the change.
I heard that files from electronic shutter are 12 bit color vs. 16 bit when using mechanical shutter. I don't see that as a big deal. Is that the same for electronic first curtain? Any comments on that?
I've been using electronic first curtain ( available in Live mode on the 90D) when shooting many frames for time lapse. Had no issues so far.
Canon have electronic first curtain as an option on xxD-cameras since 40D, and on the Rebels it's been the only option. Some cameras have had lower bit depth in RAW-files with electronic shutter, but I've never seen that mentioned about electronic first curtain (still a possibility, I don't know everything about all models).
Some cameras drop from 14bit to 12bit raw files. But your milage may vary. Personally, I don't think it's a noticeable issue, but if it's important to you...
To my knowledge rhe only cameras that work in 16 bit are MF
Is the best shutter setting for video the Electronic shutter
I'm a retired corporate photographer and videographer of 31 years.
On a hybrid photo/video camera, video is always all-electronic shutter. No matter your still camera shutter settings, the instant you start recording video the camera switches to all-electronic.
When you switch back to still-camera mode, most cameras will change the shutter back to the previous used shutter mode, but I did have a camera (don't remember which) that would revert to full-mechanical shutter for stills, so do check the operation of "your camera" before any important project.
Is it the same Bit rate on E1st curtain vs mechanical?
All cameras are a bit different, so you'll need to check your manual.
@@DavidBergmanPhoto canon R5
Ah. So what does rear shutter do then. I've got a Nikon D3500 dslr and it has both.
You might be thinking of front and rear flash curtain sync. Completely different issues. I did a video about that a while ago: ua-cam.com/video/NfWc4pq-FIM/v-deo.html
hm ...2 months old video and outdated ? The R6 can shoot 30sec on electronic shutter
thx any, it help me the EFCS thingy ;-)
Is high-speed sync flash still viable on electronic first curtain, or would it make more sense to just stick to ND filters instead?
If the flash works, then high speed sync should work.
You'd get banding with HSS
Get terrible banding on HSS flash with electronic shutters so tend to stick with mechanical, the benefits of electronic (like >1/8000 second shutter) aren't something I use, so no loss to stick mechanical (until it wears out!) but too many cons to electronic currently (and I do often do long exposures too).
Currently shoot Sony A7rv and an A7iii.
I imagine the tech will only get better and better. But yea, it's relatively new.
HSS flash either needs a constant light source - like a video light, or a flash many times more powerful than the single-flash output you need, in order to avoid this scenario… a regular shoed flash does not cut it for HSS shooting in most cases! Either that, or you need one of the few cameras featuring leaf-shutter; Leica makes at least one, Fuji has the X100 series, and otherwise Hasselblad, where they place the shutter in-lens…
@@mortenthorpe That doesn't track, if the flash is perfectly fine on a mechanical shutter under HSS then I'd lay the blame at the electronic shutter under HSS, not the light source, as that's the only variable changed that's resulting in a problem.
Excellent video but you might have expanded the point made about different cameras being different. I know you love your R3 but some of us buy our own cameras and would rather have more on options that cost 1/3 as much and are not BSI. In Canon, there are models which only have electronic first curtain or that and full electronic. I don't know about other brands. There is also the matter that the R3 reads the screen a lot faster than some of the cheaper models so you might encounter some problems sooner with an R8 or R7 than on your R3. We all look forward to the day when $1000 cameras all have global shutters that flash synch at all speeds. I hope you will still be making videos when that happens. The question we all have is when. I might have 5 years but not 50. 50 years ago, I felt lucky to have flash synch, period.
I hope I'm doing videos then too! :)
FWIW, the R6II can be had (now) for about half the price as an R3, and it has EFCS. As with all tech, eventually the "pro" features work their way down to the "non-pro" versions.
5:12 - come on, the secret photo journalist in movies always use flash! They never worried about such a trivial thing as shutter sound !
I’ve read that Canon cameras are not as reliable and durable as 10 years ago, and mechanical shutters don’t last 100k shoots anymore. So maybe using only electronic shooter could help in that matter
Im upgrading from R currently to an R6ii, but my R has a 400k shutter count on it, and still kicks just fine. And I've used the mechanical shutter about 99% of the time. Luck of the draw? IDK, but theoretically less clicks would seem to help...like putting less miles on a car.
Then Canon R50 doesn't have the mechanical shutter option. The two options are Electronic 1st-curtain shutter and Electronic shutter.
Hey, my name may be in Arabic subtitles in your videos
My canon m6 mark ii even can shoot up to 14 fps mech shutter with servo on hahaha
The Nikon Z9 has completely done away with the mechanical shutter. The sensor-readout speed must be insane.
I usually leave my Z6II in EFC, but haven't really given it much thought until now. Thanks for the video!
Yes the Z9 has the fastest sensor readout… it is stacked bsi sensor, r3 and a1 too using stacked sensor
Get a z9
Great job explaining this. I liked everything except your pronuciation of bokeh. You were saying "bouquet" like you were talking about flowers. It's actually pronouced "BO KA" where the A is pronounced as if you were saying "AHHHH."
Does electronic first curtain effectively increase your your shutter life/rating by +33%? In theory.