It bugs me enormously with how few and precious the dragons are that Rhaenys would risk Meleys against Vhagar after escaping their first spiral without serious injury and after downing Sunfyre. The fact that she also flew blind over the castle instead of gaining a higher altitude or taking a wider route around the castle avoiding Vhagar, was dumb and frustrating.
Vhagar, Aemond’s dragon is called Vhagar not Vermithor, Vermithor is the Bronze Fury claimed by Hugh Hammer on team Black. Vhagar is the biggest, then Vermithor.
The best theory I've heard on why Rhaenys went back is that Meleys was mortally wounded in that first spiral and she decided to go down with her dragon. However, the way the scene was shot, I read it the same way you did: that Meleys was not seriously injured and that going back was a very poor choice.
@@The3dge no I don’t believe she was mortally wounded at all. I believe Rhaenys went back scanning the battlefield for a fallen Vhagar and lost sight of the huge dragon (who was surprisingly swift at getting airborne again) and when she couldn’t see her, continued over the castle to head back to Dragonstone and got munched in that fly over. Meley’s wasn’t mortally wounded, she had a sore paw from grappling with Vhagar’s larger claws and was slightly burnt on one side of her snout but her wings and body were in tact and no visible blood had been drawn and she didn’t hit the ground at any point. Sunfyre broke off a horn but that was aesthetic damage. That’s my read anyway. Aemond wasn’t even bothered pursuing Meleys at first. It does annoy me how little they seem to protect the dragons. They just take for granted that more will hatch.
In the books: - Aemond doesn't do sneak attacks like that, dragon too big. - Aemond doesn't attack his brother, he needs every dragon rider on his side. - Daemon doesn't hallucinate in a castle but uses his dragon to unite the Riverlands for the Blacks. - Alicent doesn't betray her kids (not related to dragons but I had to say it) As for dragon worship, Westeros had already ancient religions with clear theology before dragons arrived so dragon worship was like blasphemy for the smallfolk. Its religion is not syncretic and therefore doesn't accept new deities, the show missed the point of this one as well. The early Targaryen kings struggled with the Faith of the Seven, especially Maegor the Cruel.
Excellent points. I’ll give you +4 points for lore, +2 points for calling out Alicent, and 10 bonus points for using syncretic in a sentence. That puts you at 16 Edge points. No idea what they’re good for, but congratulations on your new high score!
In Valyria they did have a religion based around the dragons. In Westeros the dragons and their riders were viewed as borderline gods, they show as much and the books and show. But it isn't the same as it was. The old religions are deeply entrenched and there are likely other things pulling string.
@@The3dge Valyria is in a sunken peninsula in the eastern continent of Essos. Valyrians formed the largest and greatest empire in the history of the GOT world.
Yeah Westeros has a clear cut theology and no room for dragons. The show kinda messed up with they made them think they were gods. Only Targaryens have that belief.
@@YaBoiDREX Except: Eagles also do that as a trust fall when looking for the right mate. It’s a courtship ritual not necessarily just a fighting tactic.
@@Gigipretty64 It’s both. The behavior is a common mating activity for bald eagles, it can alternatively be a ritualistic fight between males defending their territory.
@@YaBoiDREX I know. It’s pretty cool that they incorporated it into dragon fights, it would be awesome to watch the dragons do it as a mating ritual as well. Probably the wrong kind of story for that lol 😂
The only dragon fights we’ve seen so far have been emotional attacks of the dragon rider. It will be interesting to see what happens in the actual war next season.
I ahree with so much of this but I will defend the existence of some of the typical fantasy elements like the typical army warfare and castles. Let's remember when this takes place the Targaryens dynasty came into power with dragons less than 150 years before the point of the show. Most of the castles were built long before dragons came to the continent, winterfell and house Starrk is over 4,000 years old. Like you said they are useless against dragons hence why the burning of Harron Hall was considered an infamous event as one of the few monarchs cooked in his own castle for not bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. His Dragon Balerion the Black Dread was bigger than vagar and the bigger and older a dragon is the hotter their magical fire burns. Apparently Balerion's fire was hot enough to melt stone and steel and was colored black. As for armies let's remember this is the first major war in westeros with both sides having dragons because it's a civil war nobody is experienced in this kind of war because dragons were mainely a deterrant and 1 dude, Aegon and his 2 sister wives conquerored 7 kingdoms with just 3 dragons there wasn't combat with 2 armies that both had dragons. Most wars post dragons era was between feuding lords who themselves don't have dragons so atandard warfare would apply until the king sends a targaryen with a dragon and the fight is over instantly. Lastly dragon patrols wouldn't work as only the royal family can ride them and they have royal duties to attend too, not to mention the caloric needs of a dragon would be insane to keep them flying all the time. Dragons on average eat about a herd of sheep's worth of meat every 3 weeks and spend most of their time sleeping like lions while going for an afternoon flight to stretch their wings for an hour or 2 each day at most unless they have a mission with a rider and may be flying for hours on some journey.
@wingsoffreedom3589 - Excellent information, thanks for sharing! The inexperience factor makes a lot of sense for the current regime. Though I thought dragons had been tamed for thousands of years prior to the events in Westeros. Which book / supplement goes deeper on Aegon's conquest of the Seven Kingdoms?
@@The3dgeI’m only a few hours into Fire & Blood but I think it did cover Aegons conquest. I also would like to know if it is told directly from one of the main characters rather than as a historical reference
@@The3dge as far as I know dragons were indeed tamed in Valeria millenia ago but westeros had little contact and no valerian rulership in those times as the empire focused more on essos.
@@The3dge most of what we know about Aegon comes from Fire and blood. The rest George keeps vague on purpose but leaves just enough info so we understand the world building. Some hope we will get a book about Aegon from his perspective.
A lot of people forget about “the century of blood”. Shortly after the doom of Valyria began a century of hunting down and killing dragons and the riders that survived the catastrophe. Balerion was the only dragon left alive before the hatching of Meraxes and Vhagar. Dragons were almost wiped out with their numbers being as little as 1. Stories of Westerosi dragons date back thousands of years and depict men killing the beasts. This culture and knowledge might play into the bravery of the soldiers.
Interesting. Hadn’t heard about that before. Makes me wonder how much effort it took and what special tool and technology they’d developed to take down the dragons.
I wanted more idle dragon scenes, even a background blurred feeding scene wouldn't have been expensive and would have gone a lonnng way toward making me feel the reality of the dragons.
@@muntu1221 Okay, pick at my words why don’t you. Blurred background dragon scenes would have been “less” expensive than a typical in-focus dragon scene, more comparable to the background flying shots we repeatedly get from Seasmoke and Syrax
@YamatoTre I'm not picking at your words, I'm wondering why you said them. The reasons we see those flying shots is because they serve a storytelling purpose. We have a few shots of different dragons just chilling in the background, notably Caraxes. And we often hear them calling if they're not in a dragon pit.
@@muntu1221 Yeah! And it’d be great to get some besides Caraxes and Syrax! 😃 All scenes serve a purpose, if you hate seeing background dragons that’s fine, I personally thought it would have been nice. Especially for Sunfyre since we got him for all of 5 minutes.
@@muntu1221 Almost every time someone mentions the dragons in a logistical sense, they mention how much they eat and how annoying/difficult it is to keep them well fed. Drive that home with a scene why don’t ya? Lord knows it would have livened up some of the repetitive scenes.
And what bothers is me the fact that these particular dragons agree to fight each other. I mean they are basically all relatives and knew each other for decades
They'll literally maul the people who raise and feed them at any moment, but are completely subservient to their rider. They don't regard familiarity at all.
That is weird angle. The roars and cries in the show are interesting, I appreciate the sound design, but I always wonder what they are saying to each other and I wonder which ones like or hate each other from their younger days.
Also, Dragon travel speed is debatable/inconsistent in both the main show and House of the Dragon. In season 7 of GOT, Danaerys receives the raven requesting help from Jon while he’s chilling on that rock beyond the wall. Unless they had teleportation powers no one was aware of, it would take her a fair old while to travel a few thousand miles (assuming they had built in GPS, as otherwise they’d definitely have gotten lost). But the fact that she rocks up not looking remotely dishevelled indicates she made a few stops to redo her hair to make sure she looked good rescuing Jon. Also, she would have to not gone full pelt otherwise she wouldn’t even have been wearing that outfit by the time she arrived, I reckon a leisurely 40mph max as she looks immaculate upon arrival. Oh and the lore says dragons can go from Dragonstone to King’s Landing and back in a day - it’s around 400 miles each way so that gives us an idea I guess 😂
This is one long video indirectly asking to see Aegon's conquest 😂. Most of the answers are there from dragons burning doen castles which then cause other kingdoms to surrender without a fight to dragon religions being formed etc.
The biggest problem with dragons for me, is that there's no f*king way a beast of the size of Vhagar can take flight and stay in the air with a couple of wing flaps. It's waaaaay too masive to stay in the air. Aerodynamics don't make any sense.
And that's your _problem_ with them? I hate this era of nitpicking physics in media. Can't have Godzilla or Smaug anymore because a bunch of people learned about the square cube law.
@@muntu1221 bro, Idc that the dragons are big, but they are supposed to be animals and they are supposed to fly, not levitate. And there's no way an animal of the size of a fortress is able to fly.
They are literally magic beasts who's bones are lighter than wood yet hollow like a bird but stronger than titanium. Sprinkle in some magic anti gravity affect in their wings and you are good to go.
@@AcidTripOk Dragons are magical. They aren’t supposed to be realistic. They are literally meant to defy the laws of physics which is why they are treated like gods, in an otherwise, grounded medieval world.
Hi - interesting video. I see someone already pointed out Vhagar is Aemond’s dragon - also worth mentioning she’s a she, not he. She’s known as Grumpy Granny Vhagar.
@@The3dgefun fact Vagar is one of the 3 original dragons that conquered westeros and was ridden by Aegon's wife. She is also only the 3rd largest in the Dynasty's history.
@@The3dge it explains everything you think they got wrong. Also the figgts in the show are based on large birds of prey and dogfighting. Also the dance is the first time dragons ever fought dragons in westeros aside from Balerion killing Quicksilver years ago. So they had no expierence with dragon combat. The book explains this all better.
Western tropes and values in fantasy worlds have always bothered me. For example: Daenerys being murdered, by a man, before she could take the throne for basically being too uppity. In a world where dragons exist, their influence on the balance of power and how they would be used and by whom and what rules would come into play all deserve better consideration.
@@williamshelton4318 Destruction and murder. Like the Lannisters did to the Targaryens before her. Have you read the books? But, I don't apply western values to fantasy worlds with mythical creatures used as weapons of war.
@@williamshelton4318 Destruction and murder. Like the Lannisters did to the Targaryens before her. A world where Cersi was mad and placed sex with her brother over human life? A world where Jaime Lannister threw a child out the window after catching them in the act? I counter that anyone with half a brain would have saw it coming and fled King's Landing YEARS ago. Have you read the books? But, I don't apply traditional western values to fantasy worlds where mythical creatures are used as weapons of war.
@@williamshelton4318 Like the Lannisters did to the Targaryens before her? A world where Cersi was mad and placed sex with her brother over human life? A world where Jaime Lannister threw a child out the window after catching them in the act? I counter that anyone with half a brain would have saw it coming and fled King's Landing YEARS ago. But, there's precedent for Daenerys giving the citizens warning to flee ahead of time despite the garbage we saw in final episode. Have you read the books? Also, I don't apply traditional western values to fantasy worlds where mythical creatures are used as weapons of war.
The dragons are cool. The look, the sounds, the effects--awesome. But how real do they feel? What do you think of how the show has handled them?
It bugs me enormously with how few and precious the dragons are that Rhaenys would risk Meleys against Vhagar after escaping their first spiral without serious injury and after downing Sunfyre. The fact that she also flew blind over the castle instead of gaining a higher altitude or taking a wider route around the castle avoiding Vhagar, was dumb and frustrating.
Vhagar, Aemond’s dragon is called Vhagar not Vermithor, Vermithor is the Bronze Fury claimed by Hugh Hammer on team Black.
Vhagar is the biggest, then Vermithor.
@Gigipretty64 - Thanks for pointing that out. I had that stuck in my mind, don't know why. It was one of the things I didn't look up first. Ooops.
The best theory I've heard on why Rhaenys went back is that Meleys was mortally wounded in that first spiral and she decided to go down with her dragon. However, the way the scene was shot, I read it the same way you did: that Meleys was not seriously injured and that going back was a very poor choice.
@@The3dge no I don’t believe she was mortally wounded at all. I believe Rhaenys went back scanning the battlefield for a fallen Vhagar and lost sight of the huge dragon (who was surprisingly swift at getting airborne again) and when she couldn’t see her, continued over the castle to head back to Dragonstone and got munched in that fly over. Meley’s wasn’t mortally wounded, she had a sore paw from grappling with Vhagar’s larger claws and was slightly burnt on one side of her snout but her wings and body were in tact and no visible blood had been drawn and she didn’t hit the ground at any point. Sunfyre broke off a horn but that was aesthetic damage. That’s my read anyway. Aemond wasn’t even bothered pursuing Meleys at first. It does annoy me how little they seem to protect the dragons. They just take for granted that more will hatch.
In the books:
- Aemond doesn't do sneak attacks like that, dragon too big.
- Aemond doesn't attack his brother, he needs every dragon rider on his side.
- Daemon doesn't hallucinate in a castle but uses his dragon to unite the Riverlands for the Blacks.
- Alicent doesn't betray her kids (not related to dragons but I had to say it)
As for dragon worship, Westeros had already ancient religions with clear theology before dragons arrived so dragon worship was like blasphemy for the smallfolk. Its religion is not syncretic and therefore doesn't accept new deities, the show missed the point of this one as well. The early Targaryen kings struggled with the Faith of the Seven, especially Maegor the Cruel.
Excellent points.
I’ll give you +4 points for lore, +2 points for calling out Alicent, and 10 bonus points for using syncretic in a sentence. That puts you at 16 Edge points. No idea what they’re good for, but congratulations on your new high score!
@@The3dge I'll keep the high score with the coming videos haha.
@@williamshelton4318 The show was just trying to pin the decline of the dragons on the Greens, is all
Dragons inhabited Westeros before any humans did
In Valyria they did have a religion based around the dragons. In Westeros the dragons and their riders were viewed as borderline gods, they show as much and the books and show. But it isn't the same as it was. The old religions are deeply entrenched and there are likely other things pulling string.
Interesting. Where was Valyria? Was in the same place Westeros is now, or somewhere else?
@@The3dge Valyria is in a sunken peninsula in the eastern continent of Essos. Valyrians formed the largest and greatest empire in the history of the GOT world.
Yeah Westeros has a clear cut theology and no room for dragons. The show kinda messed up with they made them think they were gods. Only Targaryens have that belief.
Dragons fights were inspired by Eagle fights which do lock claws and plummet to the ground.
Interesting, makes sense watching how they rake each other with those talons.
@@YaBoiDREX Except: Eagles also do that as a trust fall when looking for the right mate. It’s a courtship ritual not necessarily just a fighting tactic.
@@Gigipretty64 It’s both. The behavior is a common mating activity for bald eagles, it can alternatively be a ritualistic fight between males defending their territory.
@@YaBoiDREX I know. It’s pretty cool that they incorporated it into dragon fights, it would be awesome to watch the dragons do it as a mating ritual as well. Probably the wrong kind of story for that lol 😂
The only dragon fights we’ve seen so far have been emotional attacks of the dragon rider. It will be interesting to see what happens in the actual war next season.
I can see that. Angry people do tend to rush in without much thought. I'll call this the barfight theory of dragon riding.
Vaegar is the one it sleeping in the forest, Vermithor is Hugh hammers dragon at dragon Stone...
@adrianlajas5336 - Yeah, no idea how I got that in my head. Thanks for catching it.
I ahree with so much of this but I will defend the existence of some of the typical fantasy elements like the typical army warfare and castles. Let's remember when this takes place the Targaryens dynasty came into power with dragons less than 150 years before the point of the show.
Most of the castles were built long before dragons came to the continent, winterfell and house Starrk is over 4,000 years old. Like you said they are useless against dragons hence why the burning of Harron Hall was considered an infamous event as one of the few monarchs cooked in his own castle for not bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. His Dragon Balerion the Black Dread was bigger than vagar and the bigger and older a dragon is the hotter their magical fire burns. Apparently Balerion's fire was hot enough to melt stone and steel and was colored black.
As for armies let's remember this is the first major war in westeros with both sides having dragons because it's a civil war nobody is experienced in this kind of war because dragons were mainely a deterrant and 1 dude, Aegon and his 2 sister wives conquerored 7 kingdoms with just 3 dragons there wasn't combat with 2 armies that both had dragons.
Most wars post dragons era was between feuding lords who themselves don't have dragons so atandard warfare would apply until the king sends a targaryen with a dragon and the fight is over instantly.
Lastly dragon patrols wouldn't work as only the royal family can ride them and they have royal duties to attend too, not to mention the caloric needs of a dragon would be insane to keep them flying all the time. Dragons on average eat about a herd of sheep's worth of meat every 3 weeks and spend most of their time sleeping like lions while going for an afternoon flight to stretch their wings for an hour or 2 each day at most unless they have a mission with a rider and may be flying for hours on some journey.
@wingsoffreedom3589 - Excellent information, thanks for sharing!
The inexperience factor makes a lot of sense for the current regime. Though I thought dragons had been tamed for thousands of years prior to the events in Westeros. Which book / supplement goes deeper on Aegon's conquest of the Seven Kingdoms?
@@The3dgeI’m only a few hours into Fire & Blood but I think it did cover Aegons conquest. I also would like to know if it is told directly from one of the main characters rather than as a historical reference
@@The3dge as far as I know dragons were indeed tamed in Valeria millenia ago but westeros had little contact and no valerian rulership in those times as the empire focused more on essos.
@@The3dge most of what we know about Aegon comes from Fire and blood. The rest George keeps vague on purpose but leaves just enough info so we understand the world building. Some hope we will get a book about Aegon from his perspective.
A lot of people forget about “the century of blood”. Shortly after the doom of Valyria began a century of hunting down and killing dragons and the riders that survived the catastrophe. Balerion was the only dragon left alive before the hatching of Meraxes and Vhagar. Dragons were almost wiped out with their numbers being as little as 1. Stories of Westerosi dragons date back thousands of years and depict men killing the beasts. This culture and knowledge might play into the bravery of the soldiers.
Interesting. Hadn’t heard about that before. Makes me wonder how much effort it took and what special tool and technology they’d developed to take down the dragons.
I wanted more idle dragon scenes, even a background blurred feeding scene wouldn't have been expensive and would have gone a lonnng way toward making me feel the reality of the dragons.
What makes you think they wouldn't have been expensive?
@@muntu1221 Okay, pick at my words why don’t you. Blurred background dragon scenes would have been “less” expensive than a typical in-focus dragon scene, more comparable to the background flying shots we repeatedly get from Seasmoke and Syrax
@YamatoTre I'm not picking at your words, I'm wondering why you said them. The reasons we see those flying shots is because they serve a storytelling purpose. We have a few shots of different dragons just chilling in the background, notably Caraxes. And we often hear them calling if they're not in a dragon pit.
@@muntu1221 Yeah! And it’d be great to get some besides Caraxes and Syrax! 😃 All scenes serve a purpose, if you hate seeing background dragons that’s fine, I personally thought it would have been nice. Especially for Sunfyre since we got him for all of 5 minutes.
@@muntu1221 Almost every time someone mentions the dragons in a logistical sense, they mention how much they eat and how annoying/difficult it is to keep them well fed. Drive that home with a scene why don’t ya? Lord knows it would have livened up some of the repetitive scenes.
And what bothers is me the fact that these particular dragons agree to fight each other. I mean they are basically all relatives and knew each other for decades
They'll literally maul the people who raise and feed them at any moment, but are completely subservient to their rider. They don't regard familiarity at all.
That is weird angle. The roars and cries in the show are interesting, I appreciate the sound design, but I always wonder what they are saying to each other and I wonder which ones like or hate each other from their younger days.
Also, Dragon travel speed is debatable/inconsistent in both the main show and House of the Dragon. In season 7 of GOT, Danaerys receives the raven requesting help from Jon while he’s chilling on that rock beyond the wall. Unless they had teleportation powers no one was aware of, it would take her a fair old while to travel a few thousand miles (assuming they had built in GPS, as otherwise they’d definitely have gotten lost). But the fact that she rocks up not looking remotely dishevelled indicates she made a few stops to redo her hair to make sure she looked good rescuing Jon. Also, she would have to not gone full pelt otherwise she wouldn’t even have been wearing that outfit by the time she arrived, I reckon a leisurely 40mph max as she looks immaculate upon arrival. Oh and the lore says dragons can go from Dragonstone to King’s Landing and back in a day - it’s around 400 miles each way so that gives us an idea I guess 😂
Don't quote the later seasons of GOT. They never happened.
Rhaenys Targaryen's death was unnecessary, she should've flown back
She could have done that in the book too. The whole entire dance is a plot point to kill the dragons off so Danys dragons are scarce and special.
This is one long video indirectly asking to see Aegon's conquest 😂. Most of the answers are there from dragons burning doen castles which then cause other kingdoms to surrender without a fight to dragon religions being formed etc.
I agree the ships make no sense, vhagar could easily swoop down and burn the majority of the valeryion fleet in 10 mins
The biggest problem with dragons for me, is that there's no f*king way a beast of the size of Vhagar can take flight and stay in the air with a couple of wing flaps. It's waaaaay too masive to stay in the air. Aerodynamics don't make any sense.
And that's your _problem_ with them? I hate this era of nitpicking physics in media. Can't have Godzilla or Smaug anymore because a bunch of people learned about the square cube law.
@@muntu1221 bro, Idc that the dragons are big, but they are supposed to be animals and they are supposed to fly, not levitate. And there's no way an animal of the size of a fortress is able to fly.
They are literally magic beasts who's bones are lighter than wood yet hollow like a bird but stronger than titanium. Sprinkle in some magic anti gravity affect in their wings and you are good to go.
@@wingsoffreedom3589 Yes!! Can we all acknowledge there is magic involved! It doesn’t have to actually be possible.
@@AcidTripOk Dragons are magical. They aren’t supposed to be realistic. They are literally meant to defy the laws of physics which is why they are treated like gods, in an otherwise, grounded medieval world.
Bro has obviously never played Skyrim 😂
"Gotta keep my eyes open. Damn dragons could swoop down at any moment."
Hi - interesting video. I see someone already pointed out Vhagar is Aemond’s dragon - also worth mentioning she’s a she, not he. She’s known as Grumpy Granny Vhagar.
@ReginaFalange.1 - such an embarrassing mistake with the name. But I'd missed that Vhagar was a she. Interesting.
@@The3dgefun fact Vagar is one of the 3 original dragons that conquered westeros and was ridden by Aegon's wife. She is also only the 3rd largest in the Dynasty's history.
Did you read Fire and Blood??
@Airhead348 - Not yet, it's in the queue... What did you think of it?
@@The3dge it explains everything you think they got wrong. Also the figgts in the show are based on large birds of prey and dogfighting. Also the dance is the first time dragons ever fought dragons in westeros aside from Balerion killing Quicksilver years ago. So they had no expierence with dragon combat. The book explains this all better.
@@Airhead348 Well now I have to read it😅. The show has tantalizing clues and interesting details, but it leaves me wanting more.
@@Airhead348Actually the Dornish also killed a dragon
Western tropes and values in fantasy worlds have always bothered me. For example: Daenerys being murdered, by a man, before she could take the throne for basically being too uppity. In a world where dragons exist, their influence on the balance of power and how they would be used and by whom and what rules would come into play all deserve better consideration.
Yup a man murdering a woman, after she destroyed a city - blasphemy!
@@williamshelton4318 Destruction and murder. Like the Lannisters did to the Targaryens before her. Have you read the books?
But, I don't apply western values to fantasy worlds with mythical creatures used as weapons of war.
@@williamshelton4318 Destruction and murder. Like the Lannisters did to the Targaryens before her. A world where Cersi was mad and placed sex with her brother over human life? A world where Jaime Lannister threw a child out the window after catching them in the act? I counter that anyone with half a brain would have saw it coming and fled King's Landing YEARS ago. Have you read the books?
But, I don't apply traditional western values to fantasy worlds where mythical creatures are used as weapons of war.
@@williamshelton4318 Like the Lannisters did to the Targaryens before her? A world where Cersi was mad and placed sex with her brother over human life? A world where Jaime Lannister threw a child out the window after catching them in the act? I counter that anyone with half a brain would have saw it coming and fled King's Landing YEARS ago. But, there's precedent for Daenerys giving the citizens warning to flee ahead of time despite the garbage we saw in final episode. Have you read the books? Also, I don't apply traditional western values to fantasy worlds where mythical creatures are used as weapons of war.
Great video
Thanks for the visit!
Yup 😝