RWW187 Which Saw First
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- I get asked which saw a beginning woodworker should buy first. There are a lot of things that make this answer "it depends" but I feel pretty strongly that it should be a carcass saw. Here is a detailed look at why.
For more woodworking articles, videos, audio, and even give aways, visit my site at www.renaissancewoodworker.com
it's so helpful to see your work done left handed
Thanks for the advice. I just got my first caucus saw and have used it for everything. keep up the good work.
Legendary comment
Paul Sellers recommend rip saw for all operations. You recommend cross cut saw as "the Jack of all Saws". And Bad Axe Toolworks offer 'Hybrid' configuration. As for me I like my LN 19" crosscut saw more than anything else.
Nice demo and great explanation Shannon. This will help many of us!
I bought 2 Japanese saws (one of them being a Japanese backsaw). They are easy to learn to use, inexpensive, and have greatly simplified my sawing life.
I got lucky, my first backsaw was indeed a carcass saw. I learned to do everything with it and later purchased more specialized saws. Like I said it was pure luck. It just happened to be a saw I found at an auction a few decades ago. I didn't even know at the time it was a crosscut saw. I just bought a file and tried to follow the geometry that was on it. It was later when I started to understand the differences and expanded my purchases. Over the years I've lessened the rake a bit to make it more aggressive and I still use it for most every job. It was a great purchase.
Thanks for this video, Shannon. I've been fiddling around with whatever handsaws my parents have lying around at their house, and then wondering why all of my cuts are total garbage. As a complete noob in the realm of saws that don't plug into electrical outlets, I can say with confidence that you've given me a great starting point.
By the way, I really enjoyed the body cam shots in this video. It's almost like seeing everything from your perspective...or at least from the perspective of a shorter person standing directly in front of you. It really gives the video a refreshing alternative view that provides us viewers with just a bit more detail.
Andrew Shreffler thanks and good luck finding your way along the path of saw nirvana. You'll see a lot more from the GoPro in the future. I'm still struggling a bit with getting the right angle on the chest mount and some of that footage wasn't usable. I think once I get a better idea of the right angle for each task I'll be able to use it even more.
Very informative. Now i know what i will buy instead of my old one. Thank you very much!
Great information! Thanks.
Glad to see I’m not the only one with a Bad Axe collection. :)
Great information, thanks for sharing it.
Even though your left handed... great demo. Changed my mind.
I agree that the carcass saw is the first saw you should buy as a beginning darksider. I would argue that it should be a rip-cut though, and here's why.
1) Both saws cut dovetails equally well.
2) Cutting the cheeks on tenons is much easier with a rip cut saw, and the shoulder cuts are relatively shallow. With a good strong knife line all round, tear-out shouldn't be an issue on the shoulder cuts either.
3) Although crosscuts with a ripsaw can be a bit difficult to start, once you get going it's not that bad, and again, a strong knife line helps with tear-out. You're going to finish those cuts on a shooting board anyway, so it's ok if the cuts are a tiny bit rougher.
4) Working without the benefit of hardened teeth means you need to learn to sharpen, and sharpening a rip saw is leaps and bounds easier to learn than sharpening a crosscut saw. A beginning woodworker intimidated with sharpening their pretty new saw is a beginning woodworker less likely to sharpen up, and more likely to become frustrated with a blunt tool and chuck the whole thing in.
5) A lot of the problems starting a rip cut saw can be overcome with a progressive rake (similar to progressive pitch, but much easier to do). Probably not something an immediate beginner would try, but certainly helps with the versatility of the tool.
It's worth mentioning that I rarely if ever use crosscut saws, so I might be biased. Food for thought though.
Indeed valid points of which I agree with all of them. However, the sharpening difficulty thing is a perpetuate myth that one attempt at sharpening will dispel. Seriously its not that hard, and it should be a required skill so why not figure out the "harder" way first. Second, I agree with the dovetail and tenon thing but longer dados and cross cuts will be cleaner and easier to start and finish with a relaxed rake and some fleam. Like I said in the video, why not stack the cards in your favor and sacrifice a bit of speed. I doubt speed it really what a beginner wants in their saw anyway. Let's be real though, there isn't that much difference in the performance of the two geometries when we are dealing with the finer pitch of these saws anyway so let's call it a wash eh? The cool thing is altered geometries and additional saws are the fun benefit you get after you discover you enjoy sawing so I think the easy glide, clean cut of a crosscut tooth gives a better first impression. Consider it a gateway drug ;)
A fair point. As you say, with the finer pitch makes for fairly similar saws ultimately. One of the few crosscut saws I do use is a crosscut handsaw, because starting a crosscut with a coarse pitched rip handsaw is just not going to happen.
Maybe I'll give crosscut backsaws another go too? Afterall, if I don't like it I can always file it rip :P
Nicely explained thanks
Thanks, always good enjoyable and educational.
glad you think so, I try for both
Hi Shannon, lovely mallet at 15:45! Just writing to let you know you should add a link to them in your video description so they can learn (by referrer) that you are driving some traffic to them and maybe reward you or get in touch with you in the future who knows...
Shannon, good video and discussion. A few years back as I was entering the realm of hand tool woodworking, I agonized over this very decision. It is interesting that I ended up at the same conclusion as you with one small exception: I finally decided on an LN Carcass Saw filed with rip teeth. Yes, it was a "special order" I suppose, but cost me nothing additional. I chose the carcass saw for many of the reasons that you mention in your video, but went rip because my main concern was dovetails, tenons, and rabbets. Also, I figured that 99% of my cross cuts would be done using a knife line, and likely a shallow "V" (since I am a beginner, I use these cheating methods", so tear out was not a concern. So far, I have no complaints, and my rip saw does a pretty darn good job of crosscutting - that said, my next joinery saw will likely be filed crosscut.
Again, great video, thank you so much for sharing!
carguy460 There is no such thing as cheating in woodworking. Knife lines and v cuts are common practice from beginner to advanced.
I see the David Barron dovetail guides ... Cracking tools !!!
What was the company you mentioned towards the end of the 18 minute mark beginning of 19? Bonds toolworks? Or maybe box toolworks? I’ve googled both and havnt found anything. I’m new to woodworking and I confess it’s as much about the beautiful tools for me as it is working wood into beautiful and useful things. Maybe more so in fact lol. So I’m always looking for different
of tool creators, to see their twist and reimagining of things that have been around for decades, even centuries in some cases
Bontz Toolworks
I'm new to your channel and really like your work. The workbench utilized in this video intrigues me, as I'm 6'6" and I'm planning to build something mallee as I've started using hand tools much more in my work. Do you have a video on the build of that bench, or can you direct me to something that shows greater detail? Thanks, Steve.
After the carcass, what do you recommend for a second saw??
Those big tenon saws looks nice, but I think I would used them just a couple times a year; same thing with those dovetail saw, I don't think I would use them as much,. Maybe a smaller tenon (like a rip carcass) could be better (?)
that depends entirely on the work you do. Personally a tenon saw is my choice as I cut many more tenons than dovetails. Let the work you do dictate your saw nest.
Great intro to back saws ! BTW looks like I 'borrowed' your idea for the wall mounted saw till in this vid... I found a picture via Google, liked the idea and built one for my own saws.... but didn't realise at the time it was yours. Hope you don't mind !! :-)
BTW...I loved your Tansu box series - will be pinching (oops, garnering some inspiration from...) that idea too ;-)
MrSteamDragon isn't just about everything we build these days borrowed from someone else. That saw til was hardly an original idea from my head, I just adapted it to my own needs.
Very helpful, thx!
I have been watching you use all of your saws for a while. I currently am mostly an electric woodworker. I want to learn the craft of hand tools. Recently, I was asking myself this very question. Which saw? I went to Bad Axe, and got totally confused by their site. They have so many saws and call them by so many different names. I would love to have someone walk me through their site. Any suggestions? I decided to buy a saw that I am sure would be laughed at. I was on Amazon and there is a Stanley saw for ten bucks. It cannot be sharpened, but I thought it would be a good place to start until I have used it a bit and decided to spend the money on a good saw.
Those stanley hardpoint saws are pretty good actually. I meant to reference it in this video, but it actually lives in the trunk of my car and I use it for breaking down lumber at the yard so I can fit it into my car. Mark does have a lot of options with even more technical jargon. I would go with what this video says and get the small tenon saw with hybrid filing. It is a bit more aggressive than their carcass saw, but hopefully you saw how well it worked in this video.
Very helpful. Thanks
so for a ONE saw, buying a carcass, would that need to be a rip saw or a crosscut saw?
a carcass saw by definition is a crosscut filed saw.
RenaissanceWW an old comment but just getting into this! What’s your opinions on the Bad Axe Hybrid cut vs the cross cut for a their Carcass saw?
@@jeanlucdesselle1447 ha your comment just notified me, one year later I can tell you I just use japanese saws and never looked back
couldn't agree more.
So....which one is your favourite?
bluecostas Yes
Great video and great information. I noticed some David Barron dovetail boxes, will you have a video on them?
Nick Santoyo eventually yes, I only just got them from David and need a lot more time to figure out how they work into my rhythm.
+RenaissanceWW nice to see you finally got around to those. I watched the dovetail guide video first and laughed a little bit when I saw them sitting there in this video from the end of 2014.
Jeez have I really had those things that long? Where does all my time go??
Uh, does he have a fish eye lens or something?
That Joint at 13:25
Looks incredibly not parallel to the edge of the tennon
What are your thoughts on the "hybrid cut?" Bad Axe offers a carcass saw (The Bayonet) that is set as a hybrid rip/cross cut. Following your rationale, which makes a lot f sense in choosing a first back saw, would this cut make a carcass saw even more desirable as an investment in one really good saw?
Steven Rochon if you have only a single saw then yes a hybrid geometry is a good idea. But it's not imperative. If you watch my recent saw class from WIA you will hear my thoughts on tooth geometry and how cool it is yet somewhat over talked about.
Shannon, Thanks for the great video! What's the difference between a sash saw and a tenon saw? I pretty much guaranteed to get a least one lee valley gift card for Christmas. I might pick up a hand saw and join the dark side!
Wooden Robot Workshop traditionally, the tenon saw would be a bit longer (16-18") a bit deeper under the back (up to 4-5") and have a rip filed tooth with a lower pitch (12tpi ish). Sash saws sit around 14" long and are crosscut filed and in the 14 tpi range. These configurations will change regionally and from user to user too so don't get too attached to them. The best thing is to think about what you will be doing with the saw. What is the intended use of a tenon saw? To cut tenons of course which is a rip cut which can require a deep cut and need to carry sawdust out of that deep cut. Hence a longer and tall plate with a rip tooth and bigger gullets. Likewise, a sash saw was for cutting window sash. Precise and square crosscuts to cut all the parts to length that must leave a clean surface. Oftentimes the parts were ganged together and cut all at onces making for a wider cut and the longer plate handles it well. Make sense?
My rip-cut back saw doesn't tear the wood when crosscutting, and a crosscut is slower. No reason for me to spend the money on another saw.
Phenomenal
What apron is that ?
It is made by TX Heritage
Thanks for excellent explanation and wise advises for the first saw!!! But I need also the other one for re sawing some 4 cm thick 20x100cm boards to three or four 1 cm thick boards. What will be your advise for my 2nd saw? Should I buy a panel rip saw, or maybe medium or small Roubo style Frame Saw? Thanks in advance!
a coarse pitched frame saw can't be beat for resawing, but unless you do it a lot you might consider a typical rip saw in the 5 ppi area as you will get more utility out of that. Adding a frame saw to the saw nest early without having the mainstays seems a bit premature.
Thank you! So I guess I need to get them both... hmmm... or a frame saw and a kerfing plane
I still have yet to need a kerfing plane. I'm sure if I had one already I would use it, but it does seem to be a superfluous step with a well tuned saw.
Ok!Thanks! I guess my second one will be a 5 ppi panel rip saw.
So 1 minute in you show a saw and talk about "these kind of saws" without naming them. Could you say what kind of saw this is?
What’s the name of the chisel guide you used to pair down on the metered tenon?
Jeremy Long which part are you referring to. I don't follow.
RenaissanceWW sorry, it was a mitered tenon, and I’m having trouble finding it now. But you were pairing down the 45 of a mitered tenon and you had a tool/jig guiding your chisel to keep it at a 45, or so I thought.
I don't think that is in this video but it sounds like you are talking about a paring block.
RenaissanceWW is that a tool or something you made? It was black and looked metallic.
Nvm, first image I found on a google image search was yours, seems like you made it, nice design though, thanks for the reply.
Why did you switch from power tools to hand sawing? Isn't more difficult to make money?
Before laughing your head off at the daftest question you’ve probably been asked, please remember I’m very new to woodwork as my only experience since leaving school in 1976 is striking a match.
My question is do good saws make a difference to the cut as well as the process of cutting? If I brought you two pieces of wood, or more importantly a finished project, would you be able to tell if the wood had been cut on a sharp new cheap saw or a good quality saw?
My passion is photography, that’s how I got interested in woodwork, I got a bit fed up of people putting my archival mounted prints in Dunelm Mill frames (UK store but if you look up the word chavvy you’ll get a description), so I want to make the best frames possible. For many years I have to have the newest best camera, then a few years ago I realised for me they serve no purpose. I can’t do video as I have a respiratory disorder and another condition, I am a photographer full stop, and I rarely print above A2. I still had to have a new camera every two years or so because they were better, even though there was little or no difference in the finished image. In fact sometimes the image wasn’t as good. I also know people, one especially, who can take remarkable images on there iPhone. The new cameras though do make the job easier, but not necessarily better. Koudelka used to make his own film out of cinematic film and make his own developer out of weird and wonderful chemicals, but he created some of the most amazing images of the 20th century. Are saws a bit like cameras? The good ones make the job a lot easier, they satisfy any GAS, but it’s possible to get the same results with cheaper saws if you work at it?
I only found this channel in the last couple of days and it’s been one of the easiest woodwork channels to subscribe to. It’s great for a newbie like me, everything was brilliantly explained.
Your saw cuts are drifting all over the place?
Why do you keep waving your hands around?
Robert Fuqua to fly of course
Anyone ever told you, you are spoiled with your hand tools.. multiple bad axe and lie neilsen saws...stop rubbing it in. big fan or your channel and the podcast.
its a curse, but somebody has to bear the burden