You gotta give some respect to Dye for not trying to copy paste PE's success in the industry. At my field I would probably say PE was super dominant for almost the last decade. Then sometime around when the RSX and ICE showed up luxe/SP started to make a come back. While dye has kind of faded away a bit and could have copied PE, but they have stuck to their own designs even though the M2 and M3 have not been popular high end platforms. I am seeing a healthy fan base for Dyes mid tier DSR. Fingers crossed for dye M4 with the ARC bolt design!
While I havent owned a DSR, they seemed to have done something right with the DSR+. Even the OG DSR was favored over the M3 series from what I've seen. I definitely agree with you though. John Chambers has done a lot to help them get their markers know track, especially in the reliability department. It will be interesting to see how the industry progresses from here. People have said for awhile that marker innovation has plateaued, yet they keep finding ways to improve upon each platform. When Angel's and Timmy's entered the market it was a speed war, then came efficiency, and lastly reliability and ease of maintenance. People want a plug and play marker that just works and continues to do so. Paint handling is also an issue that has gotten better. The Force probably being one of the best in that category. What good is a marker if it doesn't perform? I think within the next few years we will really see what the limits of the current platforms are and something will have to surface to change that.
If anyone had permission to copy PE, it was John - he's proven that good engineers can still innovate without having to rest on laurels. As for the M3, QT's video on it explains in detail the unique features of that marker, the chamber-sensing valve and the sensing pilot primarily.
Very cool video i really enjoyed i want see more video like this for other stuff like older paintball stuff and that things you talked about macdev mech valve
This sort of competition and knocking off each other's Concepts has in my opinion inspired so many manufacturers create even better design then their own predecessors as well as the previous concepts of other marker makers and has seemed to allow the innovation of markers to get better and better in many different ways which has made customers and players like myself very happy and impressed with the improvements that have been made since I have gotten into paintball 24 years ago and I truly appreciate it.
I agree and disagree. For an industry this small and for how closely it's been copied, it's beyond just knocking off the concept of the gamma. There are designers in this field who have been green lit to use gamma based engines (GoG was not one of them), because of friendly connections with Jack. They chose not to, and decided to create the DSR and M3. That's innovation. Don't get me wrong, innovation will come from this, but it's going to be PE I'm sure. I wouldn't be surprised if they abandon the gamma, to shed themselves of GoG. EZ on/off asa by inception, slap asa by Dye... Very similar to PEs POPs asa, but they are different. They asked jack out of respect if they could use the basis of the pops for their asas. Friendly connections have fostered options and innovation to the consumers. There are ways to do things in paintball. Again, it's a small industry, everyone knows everyone.
Enjoyed the video essay at the end, and feel the same. Many evolutionary marketplaces find an end-stage efficient solution that crowds out (by out-competition) lesser designs. Not totally sure the Gamma Core is it. I'm more of a Lambda guy, myself.
@@coryjames70 I'll be honest, I haven't used it recently, but it's always been a work horse. I've done quite a lot of testing with it and i wouldn't hesitate to bring it with me for any day of play
Despite them being the wame besides the qev, would you say they have a different shot feel? And if so what do you feel is different between the two when shooting an amp vs 170r/cs2?
I don't believe much is different. I feel the only notable difference was the pitch of the shot. I feel the CS2 is more of a deeper snap. The amp shoots more similar to a DSR, soft, ever so slightly airy, but quick.
This is much appreciated. I wish there was an FL-21 animation. Edit: well, the Timmy wasn't hardly the first stacked-tube marker. I had a F-1 Illustrator which was the first decent semi-auto that I owned (after owning/using some others that were absolute garbage). At that point Bob was just honing the holes in Autocockers. Edit 2: It'll be interesting to see if Planet files patents for new tech moving forward. Aw, hell, Edit 3: Is F1 really working on a new Timmy? I've been wondering what they're up to. I really liked watching their interviews as the developed the Force (which is why I bought one).
I know, makes you wish everyone did what PE does. Would have saved me a lot of time haha. The stacked tubed poppet wasn't necessarily the argument, it was the electrification of it really. Yes, that's what's been rumoured for the past several years and confirmed last year at some point. There hasn't been really any updates, unfortunately.
@@QTPaintball I did a side by side test between the AMP and X, the AMP felt smoother, quieter and less vibration. I also feel my AMP is smoother and quieter than my CS2. Considering the AMP has a higher end bolt design (comparable to TM40 and CS2 vs original gamma core) would you still choose a 170r over the AMP? With the current mid tier markers we have I don’t feel a need to purchase high end markers. They shoot identical and have all the essential high end features.
The luxe X engine is a rushed and sad excuse for a cloned engine. They really stepped it up with the amp and tm40. They have a very slightly different shot characteristic. Imo they are all smooth, but their pitch in sound are different. I would buy a 170r or CS2 over the AMP or TM40. No question. In terms of value in the mid tier, the 170r wins hands down
Thank you for the video. Ok, let’s get into it. What is the single biggest factor effecting roll back. Is it distance from the front of the bolt face and the detents if so why not just make the bolt slightly longer which is what happens when adding a soft face,limit rearward travel of the bolt or bring the detents closer toward the breach ? It seems like we all know that a soft face bolt of some type handles paint better. Why is dlx/shocker even making open face bolts. Now whether the hole pattern of the soft face bolt makes any difference is another topic of discussion. One that may be able to be answered just by looking into the new techt release. Would something like a breach insert help. I:E some roll back is ok and is maybe relegated when using paint boring out at .687 that conversely is magnified when using paint boring at .679 - smaller paint squalling more rollback. So similar to a freak insert for bore matching would a breach matching insert help with paint handling or possibly different sized detents. Maybe something along the lines of a twist lock automag barrel. Boy Tom Kaye would love that I’m sure “you guys I made the best barrel years ago and here you are circling back around to it”
Feed tube and breech diameter, face design and face to detent distance. Why DLX/SP still hasn't figured out something that other facets of the industry figured out over a decade ago is beyond explanation, really.
The amp's efficiency is from the valve design. There is a good amount of flow and the valve's lift is shorter. This allows the pulse to be released quickly and the shot air chamber to be sealed quickly, recapturing air.
Many changes in the SP/DLX design may be patent infringement features instead of actual performance upgrades. There must be sufficient difference in design to justify using something with the same base design. This becomes especially true when both designs have the same goal of low operating pressure and efficiency.
Not to be rude, but it seems you missed a key point in this video and with the issue as a whole. PE doesn't own a patent for the Gamma core. In hindsight they probably should have figured that out prior to the release of the X, AMP and TM40. There is nothing stopping SP/DLX or any other company for that matter from using the design. I think PE will move away from the Gamma Core design and learn from the past and patent the new design in the next iteration of Planet spool markers.
Did you watch the video and comprehend what was said? Perhaps watch again... As for the goals, I don't think I agree. Operating pressure should never be a goal - it's just a byproduct of volume and flow. Efficiency was baked into the design, given the breech-sensing valve. So again, I don't think those two items were *goals* - they were fairly known and expected. The primary goal was designed reliability, the features of which also make the system naturally mechanically actuated.
The Gardener bros need to go away. That guy from NPBS that continually sells garbage, he needs to go away. Paintball is a hobby with too few players and a handful of patent/trademark holders that produce iffy quality non essentials. Paintball would benefit from an economic reset. Flush the current player base as it was flushed 2009-2012. It’s had a reset 1998-2003 that shrugged off the old toxic woods players. Reset the game so it can evolve past the narrow sightedness under the majority patent/trademark holders. By the time paintball is free of its founding constraints, most of us won’t care. So participate or don’t. There is very little obvious behavior that leads me to believe any stakeholder actually cares about the hobby.
Uh oh it's another QT video!!? Let's Goooo!!
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
Very detailed, educational, and I appreciate hearing about the history of the bolt.
I appreciate the commitment to truth in this video. DYE has PLENTY more on the way!
I'm very much looking forward to it. It's time for everyone to be reminded that Dye is still innovating and breathing life into the industry
You gotta give some respect to Dye for not trying to copy paste PE's success in the industry.
At my field I would probably say PE was super dominant for almost the last decade. Then sometime around when the RSX and ICE showed up luxe/SP started to make a come back. While dye has kind of faded away a bit and could have copied PE, but they have stuck to their own designs even though the M2 and M3 have not been popular high end platforms. I am seeing a healthy fan base for Dyes mid tier DSR. Fingers crossed for dye M4 with the ARC bolt design!
While I havent owned a DSR, they seemed to have done something right with the DSR+. Even the OG DSR was favored over the M3 series from what I've seen. I definitely agree with you though. John Chambers has done a lot to help them get their markers know track, especially in the reliability department. It will be interesting to see how the industry progresses from here. People have said for awhile that marker innovation has plateaued, yet they keep finding ways to improve upon each platform. When Angel's and Timmy's entered the market it was a speed war, then came efficiency, and lastly reliability and ease of maintenance. People want a plug and play marker that just works and continues to do so. Paint handling is also an issue that has gotten better. The Force probably being one of the best in that category. What good is a marker if it doesn't perform? I think within the next few years we will really see what the limits of the current platforms are and something will have to surface to change that.
If anyone had permission to copy PE, it was John - he's proven that good engineers can still innovate without having to rest on laurels.
As for the M3, QT's video on it explains in detail the unique features of that marker, the chamber-sensing valve and the sensing pilot primarily.
I will always have a soft spot for Dye.
I remember seeing one of the gamam
Core engineers saying the arc bolt was better on a pbnation thread
@@basedvisa Which one? Jack or John?
Neither one is "better", FYI.
New quiet dye in the works
Very cool video i really enjoyed i want see more video like this for other stuff like older paintball stuff and that things you talked about macdev mech valve
Thank you! Yes, I'm going to be doing something different for this mech valve. We'll see how it shakes out!
I’m glad to see stacked tubes becoming more popular again.
This sort of competition and knocking off each other's Concepts has in my opinion inspired so many manufacturers create even better design then their own predecessors as well as the previous concepts of other marker makers and has seemed to allow the innovation of markers to get better and better in many different ways which has made customers and players like myself very happy and impressed with the improvements that have been made since I have gotten into paintball 24 years ago and I truly appreciate it.
I agree and disagree. For an industry this small and for how closely it's been copied, it's beyond just knocking off the concept of the gamma. There are designers in this field who have been green lit to use gamma based engines (GoG was not one of them), because of friendly connections with Jack. They chose not to, and decided to create the DSR and M3. That's innovation. Don't get me wrong, innovation will come from this, but it's going to be PE I'm sure. I wouldn't be surprised if they abandon the gamma, to shed themselves of GoG.
EZ on/off asa by inception, slap asa by Dye... Very similar to PEs POPs asa, but they are different. They asked jack out of respect if they could use the basis of the pops for their asas. Friendly connections have fostered options and innovation to the consumers. There are ways to do things in paintball. Again, it's a small industry, everyone knows everyone.
No.
Great Video Awesome Content
Thank you, much appreciated
Excellent video. Well done.
Wonderful work. Thanks for making it easy to learn
Haha that's all you man
amazing video!
Enjoyed the video essay at the end, and feel the same. Many evolutionary marketplaces find an end-stage efficient solution that crowds out (by out-competition) lesser designs. Not totally sure the Gamma Core is it. I'm more of a Lambda guy, myself.
I'm more of a Paragon guy, personally.
@@axledog7297 :D
Btw do you still have your XTS? I just got one and wanted to see if you were still rocking yours.
Yep, I still have an XTS in the inventory!
@@QTPaintball still reliable and going strong?
@@coryjames70 I'll be honest, I haven't used it recently, but it's always been a work horse. I've done quite a lot of testing with it and i wouldn't hesitate to bring it with me for any day of play
Despite them being the wame besides the qev, would you say they have a different shot feel? And if so what do you feel is different between the two when shooting an amp vs 170r/cs2?
I don't believe much is different. I feel the only notable difference was the pitch of the shot. I feel the CS2 is more of a deeper snap. The amp shoots more similar to a DSR, soft, ever so slightly airy, but quick.
Thank you!
Love the SUBI analogy! Let's Just hope PE doesn't offer the same fate to their models as the STI. 😢
This is much appreciated. I wish there was an FL-21 animation. Edit: well, the Timmy wasn't hardly the first stacked-tube marker. I had a F-1 Illustrator which was the first decent semi-auto that I owned (after owning/using some others that were absolute garbage). At that point Bob was just honing the holes in Autocockers. Edit 2: It'll be interesting to see if Planet files patents for new tech moving forward. Aw, hell, Edit 3: Is F1 really working on a new Timmy? I've been wondering what they're up to. I really liked watching their interviews as the developed the Force (which is why I bought one).
I know, makes you wish everyone did what PE does. Would have saved me a lot of time haha.
The stacked tubed poppet wasn't necessarily the argument, it was the electrification of it really.
Yes, that's what's been rumoured for the past several years and confirmed last year at some point. There hasn't been really any updates, unfortunately.
So is it as bad as putting a ls in a mustang ?
QT, so the Amp shot characteristic feels the same as a TM40??? I’m assuming you can’t tell the difference besides the ergonomics and features.
I owned an amp, and briefly shot a TM40. They were more or less the same. Compare engines and they are essentially the same
@@QTPaintball I did a side by side test between the AMP and X, the AMP felt smoother, quieter and less vibration. I also feel my AMP is smoother and quieter than my CS2.
Considering the AMP has a higher end bolt design (comparable to TM40 and CS2 vs original gamma core) would you still choose a 170r over the AMP?
With the current mid tier markers we have I don’t feel a need to purchase high end markers. They shoot identical and have all the essential high end features.
The luxe X engine is a rushed and sad excuse for a cloned engine. They really stepped it up with the amp and tm40. They have a very slightly different shot characteristic. Imo they are all smooth, but their pitch in sound are different.
I would buy a 170r or CS2 over the AMP or TM40. No question. In terms of value in the mid tier, the 170r wins hands down
JUST. WAIT. MECH IS CHANGING FOREVER VERY SOON
Why though
@@johnnystock7294 OK.
Thank you for the video.
Ok, let’s get into it.
What is the single biggest factor effecting roll back. Is it distance from the front of the bolt face and the detents if so why not just make the bolt slightly longer which is what happens when adding a soft face,limit rearward travel of the bolt or bring the detents closer toward the breach ? It seems like we all know that a soft face bolt of some type handles paint better. Why is dlx/shocker even making open face bolts. Now whether the hole pattern of the soft face bolt makes any difference is another topic of discussion. One that may be able to be answered just by looking into the new techt release. Would something like a breach insert help. I:E some roll back is ok and is maybe relegated when using paint boring out at .687 that conversely is magnified when using paint boring at .679 - smaller paint squalling more rollback. So similar to a freak insert for bore matching would a breach matching insert help with paint handling or possibly different sized detents. Maybe something along the lines of a twist lock automag barrel. Boy Tom Kaye would love that I’m sure “you guys I made the best barrel years ago and here you are circling back around to it”
Feed tube and breech diameter, face design and face to detent distance. Why DLX/SP still hasn't figured out something that other facets of the industry figured out over a decade ago is beyond explanation, really.
Why does the amp get better efficiency?
The amp's efficiency is from the valve design. There is a good amount of flow and the valve's lift is shorter. This allows the pulse to be released quickly and the shot air chamber to be sealed quickly, recapturing air.
Why by a copy of a PE when you can buy PE?
People like to spend more money on inferior products I guess haha. I'll gladly take the money they waste
P.E.= thors hammer
Jack = Odin
To hell with MacDev!
Many changes in the SP/DLX design may be patent infringement features instead of actual performance upgrades. There must be sufficient difference in design to justify using something with the same base design. This becomes especially true when both designs have the same goal of low operating pressure and efficiency.
Not to be rude, but it seems you missed a key point in this video and with the issue as a whole. PE doesn't own a patent for the Gamma core. In hindsight they probably should have figured that out prior to the release of the X, AMP and TM40. There is nothing stopping SP/DLX or any other company for that matter from using the design. I think PE will move away from the Gamma Core design and learn from the past and patent the new design in the next iteration of Planet spool markers.
Did you watch the video and comprehend what was said? Perhaps watch again...
As for the goals, I don't think I agree. Operating pressure should never be a goal - it's just a byproduct of volume and flow. Efficiency was baked into the design, given the breech-sensing valve. So again, I don't think those two items were *goals* - they were fairly known and expected. The primary goal was designed reliability, the features of which also make the system naturally mechanically actuated.
The Gardener bros need to go away. That guy from NPBS that continually sells garbage, he needs to go away.
Paintball is a hobby with too few players and a handful of patent/trademark holders that produce iffy quality non essentials.
Paintball would benefit from an economic reset. Flush the current player base as it was flushed 2009-2012. It’s had a reset 1998-2003 that shrugged off the old toxic woods players. Reset the game so it can evolve past the narrow sightedness under the majority patent/trademark holders.
By the time paintball is free of its founding constraints, most of us won’t care. So participate or don’t. There is very little obvious behavior that leads me to believe any stakeholder actually cares about the hobby.
Don't waste your time watching this video. The guy is just a whiner.