Altaic: Rise and Fall of a Linguistic Hypothesis

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  • Опубліковано 30 жов 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 3,1 тис.

  • @yanamed6477
    @yanamed6477 Рік тому +452

    I went to a finnish language course once with all participants only being able to speak indogermanic languages beforehand besides one who spoke turkish. Everytime we learned some new grammer he said 'Oh, thats so cool, thats just like in turkish'. Needless to say it was completly new for everyone else. Was great fun ;)

    • @deejayaech4519
      @deejayaech4519 Рік тому +18

      Could be a sprachbund.

    • @PC_Simo
      @PC_Simo Рік тому +51

      @Cu6upckuû As a Finn, I noticed the same similarity. Well, we Finns *_DID_* come from the Urals (hence: ”Uralic”), around where there are lots of Turkic peoples (including Tatars, I believe); and Hungarian (another Uralic, Finno-Ugric language) shares *_VERY_* similar grammar, in my mind, to Turkic languages. 🤔

    • @PC_Simo
      @PC_Simo Рік тому +7

      @@deejayaech4519 Probably is 🤔.

    • @ЕленаБорисова-щ8е
      @ЕленаБорисова-щ8е Рік тому +2

      The similiarity of formants is important. Moreover some roots are also evedentli the same, the word tjat means fish for example. There must bencommon.Ural-Altaic ancestor.

    • @PC_Simo
      @PC_Simo Рік тому +6

      @Cu6upckuû Finnish was included in the Ural-Altaic (or Uraltaic) mega-family-hypothesis, together with all the other Uralic languages, though.

  • @Xidnaf
    @Xidnaf 5 років тому +1097

    I was always curious about this myself, one of the oldest ideas for a video on my list. Awesome to see it presented so well here! :D

    • @MDzaki-uk2ll
      @MDzaki-uk2ll 5 років тому +30

      Hey Xidnaf :)

    • @timmyturner327
      @timmyturner327 5 років тому +23

      nice to see you Xidnaf! I've liked a lot of your vids.

    • @MihcaelTube
      @MihcaelTube 5 років тому +9

      Greetings to you from Berlin, Germany!

    • @himssendol6512
      @himssendol6512 5 років тому +5

      Hello! Love your videos.

    • @ekvedrek
      @ekvedrek 4 роки тому +8

      Upload

  • @NativLang
    @NativLang  5 років тому +833

    I got more in character, swapping between what each side was saying. Spending so much time on color-coded quotes was a change. For me, this was more about sharing the story than about asking you to weigh in on a conflict. Are there other tales would you'd like to see animated like this?

    • @Alfonso162008
      @Alfonso162008 5 років тому +51

      I know nothing about linguistics, so I don't have any recommendations regarding the field, but this video was great and it made me invested in the story, so I'd say you're doing an awesome job :)

    • @falnica
      @falnica 5 років тому +29

      I want an overview of all accepted language families

    • @HenrikP97
      @HenrikP97 5 років тому +23

      I might be personally biased, being a speaker, but history around the Uralic family is rather interesting. Also, the origins of Malagasy in comparison to the continent closest by is a fun oddity to explore.

    • @NativLang
      @NativLang  5 років тому +35

      @@Alfonso162008 Thank you!

    • @finnsalsa9304
      @finnsalsa9304 5 років тому +21

      I would absolutely love a video about Uralic languages (as a speaker myself). It's very hard to find good UA-cam videos about them.

  • @christosvoskresye
    @christosvoskresye 5 років тому +951

    Even biologists trying to reconstruct the "tree of life" have realized the tree metaphor is a dangerous oversimplification. We STILL have lateral gene transfer between distantly related species today, and once it enters the germ line and becomes inherited, these genes make the idea of a simple family tree ultimately meaningless. In the distant past, when eukaryotes were first emerging, the situation was even more complicated.
    If that's true in genetics, it's true in spades in linguistics. This is not a case of "my tree good, your tree bad." ALL trees are potentially dangerous oversimplifications.

    • @christosvoskresye
      @christosvoskresye 5 років тому +144

      To sum up, it is never a tree, but always a net.

    • @Mercure250
      @Mercure250 5 років тому +18

      @@christosvoskresye Amen to that

    • @BygoneT
      @BygoneT 5 років тому +34

      That's literally what we humans do all the time. Shit is too complex so we try to make it simple and misunderstand. Problems with the economy? Print more money, if people have more everything will be fine. (Looks at Zimbabwe)
      Is Yellowstone going to erupt in 40 years Max? Let's try to use cool gases to avoid that (Almost triggers the apocalypse before its time). And so on.

    • @Lewa263
      @Lewa263 5 років тому +15

      Ha, I was going to comment about this too, since I just read David Quammen's The Tangled Tree. The human desire to classify things neatly is a mental trap.

    • @hedgehog3180
      @hedgehog3180 5 років тому +47

      > We STILL have lateral gene transfer between distantly related species today
      Ehh that is definitely overstating this. Gene transfer can happen between species but definitely not distantly related ones since they wouldn't be able to actually mate. The closest thing would be retroviruses but where viruses sit on the tree of life is difficult to say. In bacteria it is true that genes can transfer between pretty distantly related species but it isn't true for multi cellular life. The tree of life model is still a very good one for understanding the broader history of life on Earth but when we have to look closer it tends to be drawn differently these days. It's not a model that can be used to understand evolution on an individual scale but it works on the broader scale.

  • @mailasun
    @mailasun 4 роки тому +1744

    Turns out I’m one of the rare people who still knows Manchu.
    ᠮᡠᠰᡝᡳ ᠮᠠᠨᠵᡠ ᡤᡳᠰᡠᠨ ᠪᡝ ᠪᠠᡳᠨᡩᡠᡥᡝ ᠠᠮᠪᡠᠯᠠ ᠪᠠᠨᡳᡥᠠ᠉

    • @wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus
      @wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus 4 роки тому +227

      Really the coolest writing system there is imo.

    • @mailasun
      @mailasun 4 роки тому +473

      @@wasserruebenvergilbungsvirus It's actually traditional mongolian script. We borrowed their script alphabet. However, they ditched this script and went cyrillic since 1941. They actually decided last week, yes, on March 19, 2020, that they are going to re-adopt the traditional Mongolian script, but imo it's gonna be hard. They have lost this script for 3-4 generations already.

    • @Ida-xe8pg
      @Ida-xe8pg 4 роки тому +49

      @@mailasun Btw the horizontally written mongolic looks like the Wadiyan script

    • @mailasun
      @mailasun 4 роки тому +35

      mini francis sorry, I don’t know what “wadiyan script” is.

    • @Ida-xe8pg
      @Ida-xe8pg 4 роки тому +51

      @@mailasun Its not a real script its the script used in a fictional nation of Wadiya in the movie Dictator

  • @Jerimbo
    @Jerimbo 5 років тому +1229

    LANGFOCUS AND NATIVLANG VIDEOS IN ONE DAY OH THE LORD HAS BLESSED US, IMMEDIATELY CLICKED
    Last time I was this early, altaic was still an accepted proposal

    • @grimhavenz
      @grimhavenz 5 років тому +22

      Idk why but I thought I was the only one who watched both!

    • @davidlericain
      @davidlericain 5 років тому +7

      @@grimhavenz Nope, me too.

    • @torspedia
      @torspedia 5 років тому +9

      @@grimhavenz Watched both as well :-)

    • @LeoStaley
      @LeoStaley 5 років тому +7

      Nativlang is like 2 teirs above langfocus in quality. Which is just to say nativlang is SS+ teir, the top.

    • @canko15
      @canko15 5 років тому +5

      Except langfocus is shit
      I'm happy about NativLang tho

  • @weilongguan6329
    @weilongguan6329 4 роки тому +1153

    I'm a Manchu from Beijing, I speak a little Manchu and a little Mongol, when I learned Turkish in Istanbul I found the grammar and vocab surprisingly matching (excluding Islamic borrowings in Turkish and Tibetan Buddhist borrowings in Manchu/Mongol). All those suffixes and conjugations are nearly the same.
    Other than that my grandpa (Manchu) and grandma (Mongolian) could communicate with each other speaking their native languages (plus Chinese and Tibetan)

    • @AD-yq8rl
      @AD-yq8rl 4 роки тому +36

      I totally agree with you

    • @lisamanoban2957
      @lisamanoban2957 4 роки тому +21

      So true.

    • @goldeviolets4314
      @goldeviolets4314 4 роки тому +73

      That makes sense considering that Altaic is a sprachbund

    • @ek3200
      @ek3200 4 роки тому +64

      We Turks always see Mongols and Manchurians as brothers. Also, wr have some same words. Like kut(holy).

    • @LMvdB02
      @LMvdB02 4 роки тому +11

      @@goldeviolets4314 with such grammatical similarity

  • @adamatari
    @adamatari 5 років тому +617

    I think the failure of the Altaic hypothesis actually opens up some interesting questions about how languages form. I suspect when we understand creolization better we will see that it is a fundamental part of the formation of new languages.

    • @MartaRzehorz
      @MartaRzehorz 5 років тому +17

      Well, let's build public schools for the deaf in the places where there are none and we can study it.

    • @Nemo_Anom
      @Nemo_Anom 5 років тому +5

      I think that Dixon's theory is fairly reasonable. "The Rise and Fall of Languages" by RWM Dixon.

    • @SchmulKrieger
      @SchmulKrieger 4 роки тому +10

      Creolisation means that there have to be more than one language already existing.
      This is not how a language branch come up.

    • @SchmulKrieger
      @SchmulKrieger 4 роки тому +8

      @Erkinbek Mongolhan, Mongolian seems to be elder and Turkish as Turkic is much younger. Turkic and Mongolian could be of Paleosibirian ancestry. Where Turkic is the new branch. It is similar to Indo-Aryan which is part of the greater family branch Indo-Germanic (Indo-European). But Persian/Farsi has a Sprachbund with Arabic and the Hindi languages have a Sprachbund with the Dravidian.

    • @SchmulKrieger
      @SchmulKrieger 4 роки тому +9

      @veryserioz, nope. Yeniseian languages have no ancestry to Turkic or Mongolian. They are just part of the Paleosibirian Sprachbund.

  • @eyuin5716
    @eyuin5716 5 років тому +617

    To me Altaic is more of a cultural region rather than a related family. Kind of similar to languages in Mesoamerica.

    • @askovtk4834
      @askovtk4834 5 років тому +71

      Same here and it makes sense, since the nations and tribes have all kind of cultural exchange with each others through all ages, with all these wars, envoys, trades, invasions and occupation. Language is just one of those thing their share and exchange.

    • @Odinsday
      @Odinsday 5 років тому +18

      I prefer to call it a cultural family linguistic tree. I wish it was talked about more often.

    • @morganalabeille5004
      @morganalabeille5004 5 років тому +29

      Linguistic found family

    • @heitorb7765
      @heitorb7765 4 роки тому +2

      There is some issue. Anthropologists use language family to classify the ethnic groups

    • @heitorb7765
      @heitorb7765 4 роки тому

      @Philosophy is pain i'm agreed with, it's just our way to make the world more simple to understand. But, i agree too languages related have more cultural similarity, so...

  • @aaronmarks9366
    @aaronmarks9366 5 років тому +164

    Altaic is so popular that it's even popped up in the Americas: during my MA program, I found a grammar of the Aymara language (spoken in Bolivia and Peru), in which the author, a native speaker, claimed dead on that Aymara is an Altaic language. He even claimed that the Aymaras are descended from Asian Altaic speakers that crossed from Asia to South America *by ship* sometime in the last few millennia. I guess to be fair, Aymara fits that pattern shown at the beginning pretty well, just that it doesn't have vowel harmony, and doesn't have pronouns in b- and s-.

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому +18

      Glad he didn't resort to an imaginary ice age to account for the crossing when ships suffice especially with the Bering strait.

    • @irubjaejoong
      @irubjaejoong 4 роки тому +19

      Okkk. I’m an Altaic proponent. But I stop short at claims the Altaic family entered the new world 😂 but bonus points to the author for creativity

    • @QuinnTheTailor
      @QuinnTheTailor 3 роки тому +8

      If you think about it, it is possible. The continents of America, Africa and Europe drifted apart millions of years ago, long before humans existed. And the only realistic way that humans would be able to reach Americas is through East Asia across to America. The Native Americans, Aztecs, Maya and the other ethnicities could not have come to America through Europe or Africa. So they must have come from Asia. The possibilty of if being somehow true is not completely zero.

    • @rocknroll909
      @rocknroll909 2 роки тому +2

      That idea is contingent on so many conditions being true together that are still just hypotheses on their own. But damn if it isn't an interesting idea.

    • @eneskurnaz8487
      @eneskurnaz8487 2 роки тому +7

      Some of the Turks, including Atatürk was thinking this way too. In fact Atatürk gave a diplomat a task to inspect Mayan language to find similar patterns with Turkish and he even gave this man (Tahsin) the surname of "Mayatepek". (Maya for Mayans, "tepe/k" a common word in both languages which means hill)

  • @VTPPGLVR
    @VTPPGLVR 5 років тому +51

    I had an absolutely horrible day. This cloud of a particularly harsh panic attack hung over me, making existing difficult. I saw your video in my feed, and hearing a simple sorta-silly “Ever heard language nerds fight? Well you will!” actually made me smile.
    Thank you for reminding me that this crap today isn’t all my life and that there are nice things I can still access.

  • @quaternarytetrad4039
    @quaternarytetrad4039 5 років тому +709

    So today I learned how to provoke a language nerds

    • @Oceanleighside
      @Oceanleighside 5 років тому +3

      #triggered 🤓😂

    • @ajavisk
      @ajavisk 5 років тому +76

      Do you want to provoke even more?
      Say you agree with the Ural-Altaic hypothesis

    • @MartaRzehorz
      @MartaRzehorz 5 років тому +22

      there are so many ways to provoke language nerds

    • @Lexivor
      @Lexivor 5 років тому +22

      @@ajavisk I like to call it Uraltaic.

    • @LuisAldamiz
      @LuisAldamiz 5 років тому +11

      No, you didn't: try throwing at them a mass lexical comparison, they'll bite and start a nulclear war of words, of very ugly words!

  • @Sophia-bm7pb
    @Sophia-bm7pb 2 роки тому +44

    As a Korean, Japanese, Turkish and Mongolian learner, I would say that although their grammar structures are very similar, but Turkish grammar is much more difficult than the others.

    • @PimsleurTurkishLessons
      @PimsleurTurkishLessons 2 роки тому +13

      But Turkish grammar is very regular. So no need to memorize. Here are
      Worldwide Linguists' Opinions on Turkish Language
      Paul Roux: "Turkish is a mathematical language full of thought and intellect."
      *Moliere: "Turkish is language to be admired; you can express a great deal by a few words."
      *French Turcologist Jean Deny said: "The Turkish language suggests that it was formed as a result of the consultation and discussion of an elite committee of scholars. Turkish verbs have such a peculiarity that they cannot be found in any of the Arian languages. This feature is the power to form new words with affixes”. Jean Deny
      *Herbert W. Duda:“Turkish, which expresses all thoughts and feelings in the most perfect way, has such a rich vocabulary that everyone admires this language and accepts it as the most perfect scientific language.'”.
      *Herbert Jansky: “Turkish language is an extremely rich and easy-to-understand, easy-to-learn scientific language in terms of vocabulary, phonetics, orthography, syntax and vocabulary.”
      *Paul Roux: “Turkish is a mathematical language full of reason and thought.”
      *Max Mulller: "Turkish is the result of the creative power of the Turkish langugae. It is the product of human intellect's awesome might. There is no other language which can be understood as easily, or enjoyed as much as Turkish." It is a real pleasure to read a Turkish grammar, even though one may have no wish to acquire it practically. The ingenious manner in which the numerous grammatical forms are brought out, the regularity which pervades the system of declension and conjugation, the transparency and intelligibility of the whole structure, must strike all who have a sense of that wonderful power of the human mind which has displayed itself in language. Given so small a number of graphic and demonstrative roots as would hardly suffice to express the commonest wants of human beings, to produce an instrument that shall render the faintest shades of feeling and thought; given a vague infinitive or a stern imperative, to derive from it such moods as an optative or subjunctive, and tenses as an aorist or paulo-post future; given incoherent utterances, to arrange them into a system where all is uniform and regular, all combined and harmonious; such is the work of the human mind which we see realised in language. But in most languages nothing of this early process remains visible. They stand before us like solid rocks, and the microscope of the philologist alone can reveal the remains of organic life with which they are built up. In the grammar of the Turkic languages, on the contrary, we have before us a language of perfectly transparent structure, and a grammar the inner workings of which we can study, as if watching the building of cells in a crystal beehive. An eminent orientalist remarked, ‘ We might imagine Turkish to be the result of the deliberations of some eminent society of learned men
      *The Turkish language is neat, which can be considered to have been made after a long study and vote of an elite committee of scholars. The undisturbed smoothness and order in the inflectional form of the Turkish language, the ease of comprehension that comes from its structure, excite those who can understand this extraordinary power of expression created in the language. The most ingenious structure in Turkish is the verb structure. The Turkish language can explain the subtleties of meaning that no other language can or tries to explain with many words, with a single word.”
      MY OPINIONS ON TURKISH - Johan Vandewalle (The text is written by him. It is written by him in Turkish.) “…I think that a native Turkish speaker thinks in short sentences, and when speaking, he builds complex structures by connecting these short sentences in various ways. This "tendency to connect sentences" can be weak in some speakers, and strong in others, almost to the extent of a disease. The linguistic structures that emerged in this last situation reflect the superior possibilities of the human mind in the best way. Although I have studied many languages ​​belonging to different language groups, I can say that I have never come across a structure that fascinates me as much as complex sentence structures in Turkish. If you let me be a little sentimental, I sometimes say to myself, “I wish Chomsky had learned Turkish when he was younger too…”. I'm sure then modern linguistics would have been shaped according to Turkish, not English…”
      *Receiving the Babylonian World Award for speaking thirty-two languages, Belgium's Ghent University Center for Eastern Languages and Cultures, Dr. Johann Van De Walle explains why he is interested in Turkish today: “Turkish can be learned in a very short time. The rules in chess are logical, simple and few in number. Even a seven-year-old can learn to play chess. Despite this convenience, the person playing chess does not get bored throughout his life. The game possibilities are endless. It is a very magical feature that the same situation exists in the Turkish grammar system. Turkish grammar is a language that has a regular and unexceptional character almost as much as mathematics.

    • @barbar5822
      @barbar5822 2 роки тому +1

      Depends on your native language. What is it?

    • @Sophia-bm7pb
      @Sophia-bm7pb 2 роки тому +4

      @@barbar5822 Cantonese

    • @ggoddkkiller1342
      @ggoddkkiller1342 Рік тому +4

      I would completely agree Turkish a lot harder than western languages like German, French or especially English but it is quite similar to Japanaese or Korean. If you learn it's harmony and how it effects suffixes you are good to go.

    • @Sophia-bm7pb
      @Sophia-bm7pb Рік тому

      @@ggoddkkiller1342 So you meant Turkish is not difficult than Korean or Japanese?

  • @zanderrose
    @zanderrose 5 років тому +630

    I’ve been told by people from Turkey that the Altaic hypothesis is still taught as fact there, even in university level linguistics courses

    • @marcoadmiralis_1497
      @marcoadmiralis_1497 5 років тому +251

      Propaganda purposes

    • @bonbonbons
      @bonbonbons 5 років тому +95

      It is in Korea too tbh

    • @yuilchoi2799
      @yuilchoi2799 5 років тому +143

      @@bonbonbons Nobody knows what altaic is in Korea. I'm Korean in Korea

    • @Kara_Pabuc
      @Kara_Pabuc 5 років тому +93

      I can confirm this as a 28 years old Turkish. I still stan with this theory btw.

    • @noelgomez7197
      @noelgomez7197 5 років тому +218

      Propaganda purposes. Modern day Turkish nationalism is somewhat opposed to Islam and the cultural heritage of that religion, starting with Atatürk's reforms on language and society. Today's nationalists and religious being opposite poles in politics. So they reach out to a distant pre-islamic past, and Altaic seems to be part of that construction of a glorious past.

  • @slamalamadingdangdongdiggy5268
    @slamalamadingdangdongdiggy5268 5 років тому +480

    For anyone wondering, the Turkic runes read "Tengri", which is an old word for God.

    • @slamalamadingdangdongdiggy5268
      @slamalamadingdangdongdiggy5268 5 років тому +57

      Something else I think is worth mentioning; I was taught in middle school that Turkish belonged not only to the Altaic family, but to the Ural-Altaic family. Nowadays schools settle for just Altaic.

    • @sertankay86
      @sertankay86 5 років тому +65

      @@slamalamadingdangdongdiggy5268 modern Turkish very mixed language Turkic grammar with many Turkic word and added new Turkish words + persian > arabic > greek > french > english > german > slavic words. We should research Tuva, Sakha, Altai, Chuvash words not modern Turkish. People think Turkey represent whole Turkic world but actualy representhing Altai shaman(still) people and nations.

    • @redwarrior9100
      @redwarrior9100 5 років тому +143

      @@sertankay86 To be fair, modern Turkish is more Turkic than Tuvan, Sakha or Altaic. The last three have many newly added Russian and Mongolic words, while Anatolian Turkish has a foreign influence of 14% according to the Turkish Language Foundation. (Türk Dil Kurumu) This would make Anatolian Turkish the purest form of Turkic, while Chuvash is just 50-60% Turkic.

    • @aaronmarks9366
      @aaronmarks9366 5 років тому +76

      Is that "Tanrı" in modern (Anatolian) Turkish?

    • @aaronmarks9366
      @aaronmarks9366 5 років тому +7

      @Nadir Kuleli That's awesome! Is that the primary word for "God" in modern Turkish, or is "Allah" also used, as is sometimes done by Persian and Urdu speakers?

  • @sudarshanas
    @sudarshanas 5 років тому +154

    09:43 You're confusing Sergey Starostin (co-author of the dictionary) with his son Georgy Starostin (co-author of the article) :-)

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому +5

      Sir Gay? What? Star Austin?

    • @Yanramich
      @Yanramich 3 роки тому +1

      @@barbatvs8959 man wtf is wrong with you

  • @ooo_Kim_Chi_ooo
    @ooo_Kim_Chi_ooo 6 місяців тому +6

    Living in Kyrgyzstan as an American and my family being Turkic as well ive been able to come into contact with Kyrgyz, Kazakh, Altai, Uyghur, and a few others and they have such incredible similarities and differences.

    • @siyacer
      @siyacer 6 місяців тому +3

      they are all turkic

  • @KenKeenan1973
    @KenKeenan1973 5 років тому +581

    Altaic: is there any more controversial linguistic theory than me?
    Nostratic: hold my beer

    • @aaronmarks9366
      @aaronmarks9366 5 років тому +96

      Amerind: hold my... fermented taiga berry brew?

    • @indo-europeanbrotherhood7183
      @indo-europeanbrotherhood7183 5 років тому +59

      Borean: Hello, fellows!

    • @morganlefay195
      @morganlefay195 5 років тому +26

      Basque: ahem...

    • @Alchymicae
      @Alchymicae 5 років тому +31

      Ken Keenan Na-dene-Caucasian

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому +17

      The etymology of nostratic is that some people with nasal voices rely on their nostrils too much.

  • @joshuahillerup4290
    @joshuahillerup4290 5 років тому +209

    This reminds me of something I've been wondering about. Does it actually always make sense to talk about languages to actually have ancestry in the same way that asexual creatures have ancestry? I know there are creoles and whatnot, but could given enough time the borrowings that happen through contact render the concept of descent fuzzier and fuzzier until it becomes meaningless?

    • @NativLang
      @NativLang  5 років тому +122

      Good questions. I've been wanting to talk about alternatives to linguistic family trees, like the "wave theory". I know biologists/naturalists have long noticed the similar properties between languages and speciation, while linguists have talked about the "areal" issues not accounted for in "genealogical" linguistics.

    • @joshuahillerup4290
      @joshuahillerup4290 5 років тому +22

      @@NativLang I also know that in biology especially with prokaryotic life that genetic relationships are often not simple trees as well, and languages more resemble that sort of thing than say genetic clones or whatnot.

    • @Glandist
      @Glandist 5 років тому +6

      @@NativLang That sounds fascinating, please do

    • @Argacyan
      @Argacyan 5 років тому +8

      I'd agree that the mere nature of information renders a simplistic tree of origin a useless ghost-hunt.

    • @dougsinthailand7176
      @dougsinthailand7176 5 років тому +2

      I think a key to this "family" is the development of mobility.

  • @oliverduolingo867
    @oliverduolingo867 5 років тому +16

    Going to take notes on this video! This theory of Mongolian, Turkish, and Manchu being one super-family fascinates me and I want to better understand it! Thanks for making a video on it and releasing it! You're my favourite language/linguistics youtuber! :D

    • @danielzhang1916
      @danielzhang1916 3 місяці тому

      many peoples lived in Mongolia/Siberia/Central Asia, even the Slavs and others came from the east

  • @hongkongcantonese501
    @hongkongcantonese501 4 роки тому +8

    What a wonderfully animated and expressive video. I would watch a year's worth of this content just to get further into the details of how and why these languages appear to be similar. Outstanding work!

  • @nurmakhanzholshybek3392
    @nurmakhanzholshybek3392 5 років тому +123

    I am Kazakh and I am very glad that my language was mentioned in this video

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому +2

      Did they change the name of the capital because it is an anagram of Satana?

    • @nurmakhanzholshybek3392
      @nurmakhanzholshybek3392 5 років тому +16

      @@barbatvs8959 In fact, no. In the Kazakh language there is no word "Satan". The name was changed because the first president transferred power to the Senate speaker.

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому +2

      @@nurmakhanzholshybek3392 Your country has many Muslims, and they are familiar with the character called in Arabic Shaytan as well as many with English in this globalized world, hence your using English. Also, Russians talk of Satan too, being heretics who claim to be Christian, yet who worship Mary.

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому +2

      @@nurmakhanzholshybek3392 PS Long ago I saw a video covering masonic symbolism in Astana before the name changed. The leader is a mason, and secretly worships Satan. Virtually or totally all country leaders do, and I prove it in my series on the satanic which has over 3,000 slides although one installment was taken down by youtube becauase of Muslim protests and youtube's libtarded cowardice.

    • @aidadavletova768
      @aidadavletova768 5 років тому +19

      @@barbatvs8959 Astana literally meant "capital" in Kazakh, we have plenty of things named after the first president, so the government decided to add the city as well

  • @kx3z
    @kx3z 5 років тому +758

    Imagine being a sprachbund 😎😎😎

    • @andrewk9267
      @andrewk9267 5 років тому +63

      Balkan gang form up

    • @Stoneworks
      @Stoneworks 5 років тому +6

      @Hernando Malinche yo what's up Hernando good to see you here

    • @pedrosampaio7349
      @pedrosampaio7349 5 років тому +14

      West-Europe gang whattup

    • @flaviusbelisarius7517
      @flaviusbelisarius7517 5 років тому +6

      @@pedrosampaio7349 well west continental Europe is entirely of the latin group (except the Basque). And no I don't count Germany as Western Europe

    • @pedrosampaio7349
      @pedrosampaio7349 5 років тому +13

      @@flaviusbelisarius7517 I was more thinking the Former Frankish Empire: Dutch, French, German and Italian as well as the dialects/minor languages in between like Venetian, Occitan, Low Saxon, Walloon, etc.
      Side note: I don't like using the terms language and dialect. A language is just a dialect with an army and a navy after all, and the are dialect continua and such.
      Is there a better term that encompasses both that anyone can name?

  • @tontonj97
    @tontonj97 Рік тому +75

    as a native kazakh, learning english and russian was very difficult and the languages didn’t make sense to me most of the time, I didn’t notice anything related to mine or if I did it was russian words borrowed from turkic
    NOW, when I started learning freaking KOREAN where I least expected that much similarities. Not only grammatical structures which was crazy but also phonetic pronunciations of vowels and consistency. In a year I was able to understand basic speech and now even though stopped learning I can understand what they basically mean when watching a content in korean, it’s fascinating. and mind you I spent four to five years to be somewhat fluent in english. similarities really show when you’re a native speaking and learning one of these languages, It’s easy bc they’re very similar

    • @33y852
      @33y852 Рік тому +7

      9000 yıl önceki dillerimiz aynı, ister benim anadolu türkçem olsun, ister sizin kazaklara ve ailemin çoğu kazaklara benziyor!!

    • @snowade
      @snowade Рік тому +5

      thats really interesting to hear as a korean

    • @parsifal40
      @parsifal40 Рік тому +2

      @@33y852 kazağa mı benziyorsunuz? Arada görüyorum tr de hep merak etmişimdir nerelisiniz? Doğudan geliyor bizim aile ve biz daha çok açık tenli araba benziyoruz

    • @gankplankinportakalsular5077
      @gankplankinportakalsular5077 11 місяців тому +2

      @@parsifal40 genelde iç anadoluda olur ben de kayseriliyim gözlerim çekik

    • @anyarasan8529
      @anyarasan8529 9 місяців тому +3

      Kazaklar kipcak turkleri anadoludaki turkler oguz turkleridir. Anadoludaki turkler turkmenistandaki turkler ve azerbeycandaki turkler oguz turkleridir ve onlar anadolu kavimleri arablar ve perslerle cok karismistir.(kiz alip verme givi) o yuzden araba veya yunanlara (kivanc tatlitug) benzeyenler cok.

  • @andrewjgrimm
    @andrewjgrimm 5 років тому +74

    I liked how you presented the similarities between Turkish, Mongolian and Tungusic. I wonder if some linguists have a bias in favour of treating something like a language family when it’s really a sprachbund...

    • @fabianbosch779
      @fabianbosch779 Рік тому

      Ihr habt ja kein englisches Wort für Sprachbund. Interessant. Weil ein Deutschamerikaner 33 Wörter aufgezählt hat, die ins Englische nicht übersetzt wurden. Wie zum Beispiel Kindergarten.
      Interessant ist auch, wenn man mal in die Vergangenheit zurückreist und sich das Altenglische anschaut und es mit altsächsisch (altniederdeutsch) vergleicht. Ein Wort im Altsächsischen gibt es auch bis heute im Englischen: that. Daraus wurde mit der Zeit dat und dann allmählich durch die Lautverschiebung das. Welche Wörter habt ihr noch, die ihr bisher nicht ins Englische übersetzt habt? 😄

    • @benginaldclocker2891
      @benginaldclocker2891 Рік тому

      ​@@fabianbosch779 yeah, English has loanwords from German when it comes to the field of linguistics (urheimat, sprachbund, etc) because German linguists were influential back in the day

  • @felixeverett1252
    @felixeverett1252 5 років тому +9

    Excellent video as usual! As someone only a year into properly studying Linguistics this truly clears up why Altaic is so rejected and what tests it fails to tick off.

    • @karacaddy
      @karacaddy 2 роки тому +1

      Açık eleştiridir!!! Wikideki irani fikir bağnazlarının yazdığı ve 100 yıl başında Avrupa sömürgeciliğini haklı çıkarmak için uydurulan cümlelerle tarihi gerçekleri değiştiremezsiniz. Hele Hint-Avrupa dili üstüncülerinin çabaları da çok komik!!!!
      -O zaman bir türk, koreli, moğol veya japon nasıl oluyor da Hint-Avrupa dillerini zorlukla öğrenirken Ural-Altay dillerini çok çabuk öğrenebiliyor?
      -Kazım Mirşan hocaya göre şu anki en saf türkçe, tatar türkçesi; uygur türkçesini bile (kendisi uygurdur) çok bozulmuş bulur. Tatar türkçesi Moğolca ile türkçenin yoğun etkileşimde bulunduğu bir dil. Ama nasıl ouyorsa türk dili olduğu inkar edilemiyor!
      -Avrupa buzçağında buzlarla kaplı ve hala neoderttallerin egemenliğinde iken ortaasya şu anki Avrupa gibiydi. Ve insanları da etkileşim içindeydiler, doğal olarak kaynaştılar ve sonuçta ilk dillerini ortaya çıkardılar. Unutulan bir konuda türklerde kabile kültürünün çok hakim olduğudur, kabileler bölündükçe doğal olarak kelime telafuzları da değişti. Bu kabileler başka toplumlardan insanları da içine kabul ediyordu, doğal olarak genetik olarakta çeşitlendiler.
      -Bir dilin hangi gruba ait olduğunu görmek istiyorsanız, dilde cinsiyet var mı ve yeni kelimeler nasıl türetiliyor ona bakın; ural-altay dillerinin özünde cinsiyet yoktur ve nedense günümüz hint-avrupacı sömürge artıklarının iddia ettiği üzere akraba sayılmayan bu diller sondan eklemeli dillerdir!
      -Son olarak izole diller teorisi tamamen palavradır. Hiç bir dil izole olamaz, İzole olabilmesi için ulaşılması zor bir adada gelişmesi gerekir. Buna rastgelen örnek dil sayısı çok azdır!

  • @stijnjanssens1785
    @stijnjanssens1785 5 років тому +20

    Omg, what a lucky coincidence! I am doing my school research project on exactly this, which is due next month! (In the context of the language isolates of Basque and Etruscan)

    • @wannabehistorian371
      @wannabehistorian371 4 роки тому +2

      Ah I remember when I had the chance to write essays a month in advance lol.

  • @ringtailedfox
    @ringtailedfox 4 роки тому +21

    I always thought Altaic wasn't necessarily a language macro-family like Indo-European or Afro-Asiatic or Uralic... but rather a sprachbund with lots of interaction and cross-pollination, like the Eastern Mediterranean one (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European have shared words in the past, for example) or the big one in Meso-America with the Uto-Aztecan, Mayan, and other various languages of the region...

    • @hanggaraaryagunarencagutuh7072
      @hanggaraaryagunarencagutuh7072 Рік тому

      There's a reference that I read, and it states that the first and foremost ancient Austronesians were actually Hebrewophones, or Hebrew-speaking peoples. It does even state that "Malayo-Polynesian languages" or what I call "Nusantara-Southern Pacific Islands languages" were actually related to Paleo-Hebrew.

    • @lyd4712
      @lyd4712 6 місяців тому

      ​@@hanggaraaryagunarencagutuh7072shut up

  • @Jumpoable
    @Jumpoable 4 роки тому +25

    Hirame means "flat 平 eye 目" but thank you for shining light on the Altaic theory. It's been bugging me for decades.

    • @yorgunsamuray
      @yorgunsamuray 4 роки тому +4

      -me is also a suffix in Japanese like English "-ish" etc. For example: "hayame" (on the faster side), takame (a little higher), etc. Maybe they meant a flat fish, like a turbot or flounder. (which, the fish in question actually is), calling it something like "flatty", but writing with ateji, used for its sound: 目 to represent the sound "me" phonetically.

    • @yukokashiwagi9786
      @yukokashiwagi9786 3 роки тому +4

      As you said Hirame can be translated to "flat(平)" +"eye(目)" when they are written in Kanji, yet if someone says "Hirame" in Japan, it usually means the fish Hirame. If we want to describe "flat eye"(which is not really the description we use but..), it is going to be like "平な目(Taira na me)" or "平べったい目"(Hirabettai me). If you say "I have Hirame" in Japanese, it only means you have the fish, Hirame.

    • @katharynemartins8320
      @katharynemartins8320 3 роки тому

      So that means that japanese and korean make part of proto altaic family?

  • @Figgy5119
    @Figgy5119 5 років тому +78

    Years ago when I first heard of the Altaic language theory, my professor never mentioned it was largely discredited, and I thought it was pretty neat sounding! I hate to admit I used that family as a fun trivia fact and shared it with a number of people until I finally did my own research on it and realized how it does not hold up at all, at least certainly where Japanese and Korean are concerned.
    I still find it hard to believe Japonic languages are isolates. The Jomon people certainly were speaking something before they came to Japan and there is no trace left behind on the continent? Yayoi people came from the Korean peninsula, and they left no trace behind?

    • @Figgy5119
      @Figgy5119 5 років тому +23

      @@gabrielzanetti9558 nooo language isolate means no known related languages, not that they died out...if you go by that logic there would be way more language isolates than there are now.

    • @tovarischkrasnyjeshi
      @tovarischkrasnyjeshi 5 років тому +15

      Korea had in the western dark ages 3 different kingdoms that evidently spoke unrelated languages. Goguryeo from the north is where the names Korea and Joseon come from, and likely represents proto-Korean. Baekje towards the region of Seoul, Silla towards the southwest, and the region of Gaya, annexed by Silla, may have spoken languages related to the Wa/Yayoi and old Japanese. But history happened, and Baekje and Silla became part of Korea, and Koreanized completely.
      The Jomon actually probably spoke Ainu's ancestor, for thousands of years until the Wa/Yayoi colonized the mainland from the south.

    • @chingizzhylkybayev8575
      @chingizzhylkybayev8575 5 років тому +3

      @@Figgy5119 how are you supposed to know about a language that never left any traces behind though? We ain't omniscient.

    • @Figgy5119
      @Figgy5119 5 років тому +6

      @@chingizzhylkybayev8575 well, that's the question there, isn't it. Are we positive there are no traces left behind? It seems unlikely that there wouldn't be.

    • @chingizzhylkybayev8575
      @chingizzhylkybayev8575 5 років тому

      @@Figgy5119 are we positive about what? I'm talking about languages which do not exist. Are we positive that a language doesn't exist if it doesn't exist?

  • @markus3355
    @markus3355 5 років тому +10

    Thank you so much for this video!! I bought a book on Hungarian from the 1970s that claims the Hungarian (and other Finno-Uralic) language(s) are “Altaic”. I tried to do some research but couldn’t find any to back or support it. I accepted it to be true and took the books word for it. Man, I’m glad you made this video cuz I had no idea it was a theory, even so a very flawed one.

    • @alexander1055
      @alexander1055 5 років тому +4

      But not disprooven.

    • @weirdofromhalo
      @weirdofromhalo 4 роки тому +6

      @@alexander1055 Because it was never proven in the first place. It's not a theory; it's a hypothesis, and one of the weakest, at that.

    • @amlans5314
      @amlans5314 4 роки тому +1

      @@alexander1055 Buddy, you need to prove it first, before being disproven

    • @dannymiewdg
      @dannymiewdg 2 роки тому +3

      there is wide controversy wether finno ugric and altaic are related. However the basic grammar and phonetic rules are identical though word origin is dubious

  • @PC_Simo
    @PC_Simo 4 роки тому +36

    ”Shun grammar, seize on vocabulary.” Well, there goes Korean and Japanese. Apart from loanwords, they don’t share common vocabulary; at least beyond random chance. Besides, wouldn’t vocabulary be the first thing that changes in a ”Sprachbund”? I guess they just focused on really basic vocabulary, like words on Swadesh lists. 🤔

    • @kekeke8988
      @kekeke8988 3 роки тому +1

      What words are even shared in common that aren't loan words?

    • @PC_Simo
      @PC_Simo 3 роки тому +6

      @@kekeke8988 In the case of ”Altaic”, I really don’t know. In general, though, cognates, words that are inherited from a common ancestor, like the English ”Holy” and the German ”Heilige”.

    • @vernicethompson4825
      @vernicethompson4825 3 роки тому +5

      I have read an excellent book by a Jaoanese author who shows just how closely the vocabulary and grammar of Japanese and Korean are related. The ancestors of the Japanese had to pass through Korea to get to Japan, so it should not be surprising that they share similarities, however distantly related they may be.

    • @haruzanfuucha
      @haruzanfuucha 3 роки тому +4

      @@vernicethompson4825 Similarities in grammar do not make for related languages.

    • @vernicethompson4825
      @vernicethompson4825 3 роки тому +2

      @@haruzanfuucha Actually, yes, they do. In fact, grammar similarities are a key to language family relationships. More so than vocabulary.

  • @oliverduolingo867
    @oliverduolingo867 5 років тому +13

    One of the things I love about this video (and I'm only at 6:33 so far), is that you reference key quotes and studies, which make it easy to look them up! Thank you for doing that NativLang/Josh! :-)

  • @JiyoungKim-j3l
    @JiyoungKim-j3l 5 років тому +91

    I'm Korean. I recently watched a Korean TV documentary suggesting that it could have been King Kim Alji (김알지) - who came from the north - brought in the Altaic culture, including language. Kim Alji opened a new blood line in the Shila dynasty in the first century.
    The docu suggested that he was named Alji because he came from the Altaic region. King Alji also brought in horses and other cultural stuff of the plain people(manchu area).

    • @boburzod
      @boburzod Рік тому +8

      Koreans did not just pop out in Korean peninsula out of nowhere right. Like they came from somewhere and the place is mostly likely Siberia or a bit west - like today's Mongolia. Korean grammar is so similar to Turkic languages, and there are some contextual similarities like Nose represents kind of self-proud in Korean like 코가 높다, and this is same in many Turkic languages too including Uzbek

    • @sharpasacueball
      @sharpasacueball Рік тому

      @@boburzod Well that is pointless since if you say it like that, then we are all Africans

    • @ggoddkkiller1342
      @ggoddkkiller1342 Рік тому +1

      Could be King Kim Alji who increased Altaic influence in Korea. But i think it goes far before him simply because there is no contact between Japan and Altaic people in last two thousands years. Even then still Japanese also share pretty much exactly same grammar with Altaic languages. For example even the usage of tense suffixes is exactly same:
      ua-cam.com/video/FRMhkqovbwY/v-deo.html
      I think there must be more contacts or migrations etc during unknown time period between 3-4 thousands years ago to cause such similarity.

    • @ggoddkkiller1342
      @ggoddkkiller1342 Рік тому +2

      @@sharpasacueball We don't share anything at all from our African past so your example doesn't make sense even a bit..

  • @SphereBoxCube
    @SphereBoxCube 5 років тому +323

    I'm an undergrad doing a double major in Linguistics and East Asian studies. I have yet to read a single paper or book that *doesn't* describe Japanese and Korean as Altaic. My soul dies a bit every time.

    • @KyrieFortune
      @KyrieFortune 5 років тому +82

      mine actually says the altaic theory has gotten out of fashion - which is very strange considering korean and japanese's basic structure is so uncanny similar it should be obvious they are related, even if distantly. besides, half of africa is pretty much thousands of languages who still have enough traits in common to be considered all Bantu languages, why can't Asia have a similar situation, considering the amount of migrations and invasions it went through?

    • @SphereBoxCube
      @SphereBoxCube 5 років тому +21

      @@thomaswinwood No, unfortunately. Those papers and books I mentioned aren't really about languages, and only mention it in general descriptions of the cultures and their similarities, but it's such a common recurring theme in works by non-linguists/non-philologists.

    • @FOLIPE
      @FOLIPE 5 років тому +75

      @@KyrieFortune I'm no expert, but isn't it possible that the similarities between Japanese and Korean are explained by convergent evolution rather than a common root, considering that their native vocabulary is quite different?

    • @GPrinceps
      @GPrinceps 5 років тому +18

      Muh Japonic-Koreanic theories. Muh lexical similarities. Muh final verbz. :D

    • @FOLIPE
      @FOLIPE 5 років тому +50

      @پاسدار فرد Александр Japanese and Korean isolated from one another? That's preposterous.

  • @oliverduolingo867
    @oliverduolingo867 5 років тому +18

    It's always a great day when NativLang releases a video! :D

    • @vincem3748
      @vincem3748 5 років тому +3

      Even better when it's on the same day as a new Langfocus video!

  • @smuecke
    @smuecke 5 років тому +212

    I wish you had included more actual examples, words and sentences. I feel like you barely scratched the surface..

    • @KingoftheJuice18
      @KingoftheJuice18 5 років тому +47

      How could he not barely scratch the surface of such a complex, long-standing controversy about which tens of thousands of pages have been written in a twelve minute video?

    • @smuecke
      @smuecke 5 років тому +10

      @@KingoftheJuice18 By providing some example words and sentences 😄

    • @KingoftheJuice18
      @KingoftheJuice18 5 років тому +7

      @@smuecke I know that seems like a simple proposal to you, but it's actually very complex when you consider how much background you need to provide in order to illustrate something in a meaningful way (except to specialists--who don't need this video anyway).

    • @wheedler
      @wheedler 5 років тому +7

      "They say that X and Y, which mean these things, are related because of this reason. Here's why it doesn't work. Also, this other example."

    • @varana
      @varana 5 років тому +7

      @@smuecke The problem is that to a layman, it would require lots of time and details to explain. Take the example he used - pali being related to palgaɳi seems somewhat logical, but explaining why that is considered a borrowing and not a word with common ancestry, would take some time. And then the other part - why is hirame supposed to be related to pali? And even if he mentioned the various linguistic processes that supposedly led to this, the audience wouldn't be able to tell how plausible it is to assume these things, and where the hypothesis may break down.
      Examples mean little out of context or without the necessary knowledge about how to deal with them.

  • @itacom2199
    @itacom2199 5 років тому +8

    Here I am, watching a video I waited for so much, by one of my favourite youtubers, at 3:29 AM, in a city at the other side of the world respect to the place the video was published. That's amazing!

  • @yumarivik46
    @yumarivik46 5 років тому +5

    I thought I'd never see this video, but it's finally here, and I couldn't be happier. I would love to see more videos told in this style

    • @verhvouvim1518
      @verhvouvim1518 5 років тому +1

      hi viktor, the world really is tiny haha

    • @yumarivik46
      @yumarivik46 5 років тому

      @@verhvouvim1518 Oh god oh fuck

  • @hennirottstock2841
    @hennirottstock2841 4 роки тому +6

    I love this video so much, I´ve learned a ton from it! I major in East Asian studies with a focus on korean & my prof once said that "korean is an altaic language" & I got reminded of your video & pointed out that this "altaic language" theory is a big dispute among linguistics ... xD

  • @uchuuseijin
    @uchuuseijin 5 років тому +79

    So in other words... It's an Altaic sprachbund?

    • @404Dannyboy
      @404Dannyboy 5 років тому +25

      That is at least where the debate rests now.

    • @irubjaejoong
      @irubjaejoong 4 роки тому +3

      R Lee a 6,000 mile wide sprachbund that covers 5 different language families is a joke.
      Clearly they have some genetic history. It’s just demonstrating that conclusively is a tall order.

    • @zimriel
      @zimriel 4 роки тому +4

      @@irubjaejoong 6000 miles of flat prairie, with horsies. If it's a joke it's not a funny one.

    • @irubjaejoong
      @irubjaejoong 4 роки тому +6

      Jens Kosch the “sprachbunde” is nearly all grammatical ... tell me any other widespread 2,000 years apart sprachbunde that shares so much grammatical basis ? someone demonstrate how a grammatical sprachbunde can cover 6,000 miles with little current or sustained historical contact. Korean has so little historical contact with Turkic .. what is the reason for the shared grammatical features ? But Japanese and Korean had sustained contact with Chinese... so much so that up to 70% of their lexicon is of Chinese origin... and Chinese left very little imprint, if any, on these languages’ grammar and structure. Yet the Altaic grammatical structure and patterns persist despite years of sustain Chinese influence and near isolation from the rest of the family (save some brushes with Mongolian)
      That’s one stubborn grammatical sprachbunde.

    • @uchuuseijin
      @uchuuseijin 4 роки тому +4

      @@irubjaejoong if you think Chinese had little grammatical influence on Korean or Japanese, think again. That is demonstrably false.

  • @dougsinthailand7176
    @dougsinthailand7176 5 років тому +23

    I think the grammatical similarities are still significant and might have arisen from some shared background. Has anyone modeled the development of these cultural groups? Certainly an origin on the steppes, followed by the development of horse cultures, with attendant mobility, would have shaped the development of a linguistic Sprachbund different from the development of other language families.

    • @crystaluwu1012
      @crystaluwu1012 4 місяці тому +1

      My theory is they displaced each other lmao, proto Turks displaced proto Mongolic people then Proto Mongol displaced proto Tunguistic people from the steeps and into Manchuria, then proto Tunguistic people misplaced proto Koreans who were living in Manchuria and moved to northern Korea and then the proto Koreans going further south displaced the proto Japanese 😂 which probably contributed to the sparchbound added by constant interaction in the following years.

  • @sunwukong6897
    @sunwukong6897 5 років тому +3

    I read the script you post a while ago for this. I’m glad it made it to UA-cam. Diolch!

  • @WhyDidntIInventYT
    @WhyDidntIInventYT 5 років тому +7

    battles have been fought on Wikipedia over this. personally, I think these languages are unrelated, but have strongly interacted over the centuries, which created enough similarities to serve as a red herring for linguists.

  • @mozchick2
    @mozchick2 5 років тому +2

    I missed your posts! There have been times when I'm sick and I just binge watch your videos. They're so interesting yet calming at the same time

  • @bigcat5348
    @bigcat5348 5 років тому +68

    Make a video on Tolkien's languages or on Yiddish!

  • @uzayli4408
    @uzayli4408 4 роки тому +36

    Can you please make a video about Turkic languages? Loves from Turkey 💕💕

    • @uuuby
      @uuuby Рік тому +1

      HALLO TURKICSH 😄

    • @uzayli4408
      @uzayli4408 Рік тому

      @@uuuby MERHABA ALMAN :D

  • @torix500
    @torix500 2 роки тому +1

    These viseos are really really good. You have not made any in a while... why? Please make more soon!!!

  • @bismuth7398
    @bismuth7398 5 років тому +321

    Ah, yes. The newest episode of Educational Linguistic ASMR.

    • @evalight4317
      @evalight4317 5 років тому +9

      I was just asking myself why I was so interested yet felt so sleepy

    • @Cosmic_Love
      @Cosmic_Love 5 років тому +1

      Lol

    • @roufamagga4453
      @roufamagga4453 3 роки тому

      The man made a nice edit on Orkhon Inscriptions. I suggest you take a look. :)
      ua-cam.com/video/d1TIK5a11E8/v-deo.html

  • @davidamadore
    @davidamadore 4 роки тому +19

    What about Finno-Ugric languages? I'm surprised they didn't even earn so much as a passing mention here. They also meet most of the grammatical criteria listed at 0′38″ in the video, don't they? So: Is Ural-Altaic even more controversial than Altaic? What do the Altaicists think about it? Are there any precise hypotheses (e.g., timelines of borrowings) about how so many grammatical structures found their way to being shared among widely different languages/families?

    • @envinyatar5712
      @envinyatar5712 3 роки тому

      What is your mother tongue? Is it Finnish or Hungarian?

    • @darius684
      @darius684 2 роки тому

      I have read some comments from Hungarians saying that Hungarian is close to japanese I had a look and I speak Japanese as a native language I don't see it I see more similarities between hindi and Latin

  • @davidbouvier8895
    @davidbouvier8895 Рік тому +1

    As a non linguist I find this discussion very refreshing. A group of thoughtful intelligent well informed people courteously discussing the validity of a hypothesis. If only others would follow this exemplary behaviour.

  • @monomundo
    @monomundo 5 років тому +12

    Thank you - that was so interesting. I am Turkish and grew with the Ural-Altaic hypothesis. Your video makes a lot of sense as even as I get a sense of familiatrity while listening to K-Pop and J-Pop or when I travel to Mongolia, I do not understand a bit of what is said :)

  • @percyparker923
    @percyparker923 5 років тому +3

    Amazing video. I’m really glad you’re back.

  • @percyparker923
    @percyparker923 5 років тому +12

    Can you do a video on Pirahã and how it impacts our understanding of language? It’s one of my favourite topics.

  • @elenaobradovic4181
    @elenaobradovic4181 5 років тому +57

    My WiFi froze just as I clicked on this and I wanted to cry

  • @magellanicspaceclouds
    @magellanicspaceclouds 5 років тому +9

    Can you please do more videos on proposed language superfamilies? This is a really interesting topic.

  • @cjthibeau4843
    @cjthibeau4843 5 років тому +1

    Super cool video!! Def worth the wait and I CANNOT wait to see what's next!!

  • @peterk.9571
    @peterk.9571 5 років тому +45

    0:17
    *laughs in Native American lingustics*

  • @balgaravar5203
    @balgaravar5203 5 років тому +6

    The external kinship of the Turkic, Mongolian and Tungusian languages is explained on the basis of their convergence (rapprochement), and not differences from one root.
    Linguistic arguments are used and archaeological. So, I. L. Kyzlasov points to significant differences in the archaeological material culture of the early Türks from the Mongol-Manchurian, suggesting that this is due to the different origin of these peoples.

  • @mtebid5658
    @mtebid5658 5 років тому +31

    Göktürk runes. ❤

  • @ViktorasZZZ
    @ViktorasZZZ 5 років тому +3

    Magnificent! So niche, but so well written commentary.

  • @ElacTeubusht
    @ElacTeubusht 5 років тому +57

    I think Old Turkic and Old Mongolian people is Real Altaic. They are nomads and Believe KokhTengri(Shamanism). But Tungus,Korean and Japon is Micro Altaic

    • @peterfireflylund
      @peterfireflylund 4 роки тому

      @Sungindra Setiawan You didn't offend me and I agree with you. I'm just not sure it was a good example, because the dominant Jewish group is so European, arose in Italy, spent most of its time in Italy/Spain/Germany/Poland/Russia, and mainly spoke Indo-European languages except for liturgical purposes. Israel is a very new creation and Hebrew as a first language is a very new and a very old phenomenon.

    • @daimyo-awaji
      @daimyo-awaji 4 роки тому +1

      Tungusic are the real Altaic aswell since they turned into their own people fairly recently. Tungusic people are without a doubt an Altaic People.

    • @yourcalicocat
      @yourcalicocat 4 роки тому

      wrong

    • @goldeviolets4314
      @goldeviolets4314 4 роки тому

      Winlax Munkhbat Altaic isn’t a language family, it’s a Sprachbund

    • @yourcalicocat
      @yourcalicocat 4 роки тому

      @@goldeviolets4314 If you include kazach and Turkenistan yes, but within Mongolia, Korea, Japan, etc. it's a language family whatever caucasian academics wish to call it

  • @jegkompletson1698
    @jegkompletson1698 5 років тому +10

    Love the animation quality!
    Quality over quantity everytime, I prefer

  • @Fenrirsulfre
    @Fenrirsulfre 3 роки тому +29

    Whether Korean and Japanese belong to the "Altaic" group or not, they seem awfully similar to each other and to Tungusic, Mongolic and Turkic languages. Sure, they cannot be analysed exactly the same way many Indo-European languages can be. But they are the closest languages to each other. Try comparing Korean to Japanese, then try comparing Korean to Turkish, and then try to compare Japanese to.... say, German. I feel immediate ease when trying to learn even Finnish. Considering how extensively the Chinese language influenced the Korean and Japanese language, you have to say, they never adopted the grammar of Chinese. They borrowed only words. Given this fact, and how similar the grammar is among Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Japonic and Koreanic (and maybe even Evenki), they seem like the closest thing to each other - than any other languages you can find on this planet.

    • @GrzegorzusLudi
      @GrzegorzusLudi 3 роки тому +4

      This "Sprachbund theory" looks for me to be more compromise than solution. :

    • @derpanarchist1723
      @derpanarchist1723 3 роки тому +7

      And the alternative to Altaic is nonexistent. You have a bunch of isolates that apparently come from nowhere. Korean did not have extensive contact to Japanese really up from when they started consolidating, at least not to the degree to get nearly identical grammar.

    • @Fenrirsulfre
      @Fenrirsulfre 3 роки тому +11

      @@GrzegorzusLudi or maybe we are thinking there is only one way languages can be related - the Indo-European way. But could there be different languages that are related but not exactly the same fashion as IE languages?🤔

    • @derpanarchist1723
      @derpanarchist1723 3 роки тому +1

      @@Fenrirsulfre Yeah, but in thus case a genetic relationship would make more sense than a borrowed one wouldn't it? How much would Korean and Japanese evolve grammatically from another within the timespan of the Yayoi migrations to today? 2100 years? That would have been the last point where extensive borrowing of grammar would have occured, due to active contact. But afterwards there isn't much to it.

    • @GrzegorzusLudi
      @GrzegorzusLudi 3 роки тому +5

      @@Fenrirsulfre I'm not a linguist, but maybe their divergence was very far from us in time like 10 000 years ago and now mainly grammar survived. :0 Maybe they were creole languages that the first Altaic language gave grammar but many words survived in different languages. :o

  • @Chrischi3TutorialLPs
    @Chrischi3TutorialLPs 4 роки тому +5

    Altaic reminds me of this one group in paleontology called "Birds are not Dinosaurs" or BAND for short. They actually used to have some good points when they first emerged, but eversince then weve found more and more evidence that birds are, infact, dinosaurs, and not a closely related clade of archosaurs that split off first.

  • @nyar2352
    @nyar2352 5 років тому +20

    Ooooh thank you so much for this!! As a Sumerologist I have occasionally stumbled across odd theories that try to associate Sumerian with Proto-Altaic or Proto-Nostratic, and it always seemed fishy to me. This was a wonderful, fun and informative video.
    Oh, and maybe - if you are interested in language nerds fighting - you could do a video on the name of the god Nergal, which has caused much controversy in my field :)

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому

      Is the Sumerian civilization your favourite in Age of Empires? I did a realistic map of the Mediterranean and managed to include the south of Mesopotamia in this map, and enjoy the land of the origin of the Jews. Assyria (Ashurestan?) is my favourite though, because of their beards and epic war power. Babylon has the prettiest walls though. What is Sumeria called in the Sumerian language?

    • @nyar2352
      @nyar2352 5 років тому +2

      BARBATVS 89 I have to admit that I never played Age of Empires, but I'm a fan of them in Civ :)
      Assyrians do indeed have epic beards, most older dudes in my field sport them as well in what I assume is sympathetic magic ("AHAHAHAAAA! NOW I TOO HAVE A BEARD OF POWER!") ;)
      In Sumerian, Sumer is called Ki'en(e)gi(r), or simply kalam "the Land". The Akkadians called it šumeru, from which we get the word 'Sumer' :)

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому

      @@nyar2352 Yes, the beard does not make the sage but many a sage is known for the beard. It makes a man look bigger akin to the mane of a lion. God himself has a beard. I teach English in SE Asia, where the beard is frowned upon thanks to Islam, so after my boss promised IN THE CONTRACT that I could have a "big beard," he lied and told me to shave. I plan to grow a goatee though.
      My name means bearded in Latin, so I am quite a fan of this phenomenon.
      The S with that v on top is an S sound or a SH sound? Thanks for the answer.
      And Nergal is the name of a bad guy in Fire Emblem, and he is a wizard.
      fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Nergal

    • @nyar2352
      @nyar2352 5 років тому +1

      BARBATVS 89 I am sure you will eventually be able to get a suitably impressive beard :) And the /š/ is pronounced /sh/

    • @barbatvs8959
      @barbatvs8959 5 років тому

      @@nyar2352 Aw, cool. I got a great beard but then part of my moustache stopped growing, so I look retarded now. I think it was from stress. I usually handle it well but marrying a feminazi and having to deal with evil coworkers is very burdensome. In my video on Spanish glory I show how I look with a beard of several months. I am Honduran but when I went back to visit, a Native American guy told me I looked like i was from Iraq AKA Mesopotamia's modern approximate equivalent. I took it as a compliment. Of course, he meant "terrorist."

  • @Narkokhelus
    @Narkokhelus 5 років тому +5

    I love how you gave Vovin a hawaiian shirt because he was working in Mānoa ! Great vid :)

  • @Dobjob
    @Dobjob 2 роки тому +5

    I am a strong Altaicists. Love your videos

  • @june_joy
    @june_joy Рік тому +4

    recently there is Dr.Robbeets theory. it's excellent.
    유럽어 배우는 사람들은 워낙 비슷비슷한 경험에 익숙하겠지만
    non-ural, agglutinative language 를 쓰는 우리들은 알타이제어들이 매우 유사하게 느껴져서 배우다보면 (영어공부할때와는 사뭇 다른) 흥분까지 느낀다.
    we need some categorie family name !!

  • @Kevin-zv6ds
    @Kevin-zv6ds 5 років тому +9

    Glad you uploaded this video a day after I read about Altaic ^_^

  • @겨울-z6v
    @겨울-z6v 2 роки тому +34

    I wish Nativlang to make a video about the recent 'Transeurasian Languages' theory, which was uploaded on . The newly proposed Transeurasian scientifically proved that the Turks, Mongols, Tungusics, Koreans and Japanese all originated from somewhere in northern china steppes. Is this new theory mainstream or is it also thought as a 'pseudo linguistic' theory?

    • @adikgamerz0948
      @adikgamerz0948 2 роки тому

      Link bro?

    • @kimurahundoshi4485
      @kimurahundoshi4485 2 роки тому +1

      @@adikgamerz0948 transeurasian theory - nature -

    • @henrywong2725
      @henrywong2725 2 роки тому +6

      It’s not. First of all, that’s bot what the article says, it just says that the five families (possibly) share agricultural vocabulary, which is completely not a basis for a family. The paper does link to Robbeets’s other “Transeurasian” stuff which are filled with the same problems and ad-hoc stuff that people like Vovin have already ripped into

    • @rin_etoware_2989
      @rin_etoware_2989 2 роки тому +2

      Transeurasian... is an alternative name for Altaic

    • @KhansDen
      @KhansDen 2 роки тому +5

      Considering that many scholars from all over the world worked on that paper, I wonder why it hasn't been picked up by this and other channels. Even Reuters published articles about it. Who knows...

  • @theanonymousmrgrape5911
    @theanonymousmrgrape5911 5 років тому +30

    I’m skeptical of the idea that languages can truly be isolates in any meaningful way. It’s something that doesn’t follow from what we know about the closeness of human relation and migration patterns. Despite 7 billion people living on Earth nobody has ever observed someone else naturally invent a language. Languages descend from other languages which descend from other languages which descend from other languages. At the beginning of our tree there should most likely be a single language from which all surviving spoken tongues are descended just as there is a y chromosomal Adam since at some point all humans descend from the same source.
    At the very least there should be a single language or family of languages from which all of the non sub-saharan african language families descend from considering their relatively recent decent from the same ancestral population. Presumably after that stage there should be macro families such as Eurasiatic which explain the obviously hereditary connections between populations that aren’t accounted for yet in the linguistics.
    It’s understandable that as a discipline making an appeal to science that linguistics wishes to only concern itself with language families whose ancestry can be defined with certainty. However it should almost be accepted as concrete fact that there is more that isn’t currently visible.

    • @rayres1074
      @rayres1074 3 роки тому +14

      No one says that languages are intrinsically isolates. Only that, as far as we can tell so far, there is no concrete evidence said isolates have relationship with other languages.Saying "we don't have evidence it exists" is NOT the same as saying "we have evidence it does not exist".

    • @ashram12
      @ashram12 2 роки тому +4

      It's not that isolates are a completely separate language, but rather that the languages they were related to are extinct. Given that most languages don't have a written form, it's not that difficult to make a language go extinct. After enough languages go extinct, you'll start having a hard time reconstructing language families, so you'll have isolates.

    • @dukeon
      @dukeon 2 роки тому

      @veryserioz
      Uh oh 🤦🏻‍♂️

  • @matthew99_
    @matthew99_ 4 роки тому +8

    I like how the dead fish gets revived at 8:09 when the narrative goes "summoning creatures to life."

  • @luthon
    @luthon 5 років тому +61

    By the way, there is a politic side to this (at least mostly in Turkey) where sıme Turkologists keep trying to prove Altaic (and Uralic for that matter) for a creating bigger community of interconnected nations than Turkic nations.

    • @bee-yq3wb
      @bee-yq3wb 5 років тому +28

      Turks are very nationalistic

    • @brettfafata3017
      @brettfafata3017 5 років тому +32

      Koreo-Japonic is also politically sensitive. The Koreans really do not want to be connected to the Japanese. I'm not sure about the Japanese perspective though.

    • @deanzaZZR
      @deanzaZZR 5 років тому +2

      @@brettfafata3017 I can't say that I understand the Japanese thinking on this either but language roots and influences are coming from Mainland Asia, not the other way around.

    • @brettfafata3017
      @brettfafata3017 5 років тому +20

      @@deanzaZZR The political aspect doesn't really make sense to me. On one hand the Japanese could argue that Japanese is an isolate, which could be used to promote an image of being unique. On the other hand, connecting Japanese to other languages could be used as justification for imperialism or whatever. Politicians could spin it either way to fit an agenda. It's really stupid, and I just want to find out the truth.

    • @gregpringle1299
      @gregpringle1299 5 років тому +3

      @@brettfafata3017 Try Mimana: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimana

  • @formalminds1461
    @formalminds1461 5 років тому +1

    Thank You for making such a clear video about the subject NativLang. Altaic is truly one of the more controversial topics in linguistics; hopefully this video can change minds in a positive way.

  • @EnginAtik
    @EnginAtik 5 років тому +17

    How does one borrow grammar without borrowing vocabulary? When groups speaking different languages come into contact how would they infer each other’s grammar without understanding what they are saying?

    • @XanthusPictures
      @XanthusPictures 5 років тому +5

      If they were bilingual

    • @varana
      @varana 5 років тому +2

      Expanding on Schachter Factor's remark, it obviously doesn't happen right when they come into contact. It requires a long-term cultural relationship and mutual understanding. Vowel harmony could enter a language that doesn't have it, they might change word order under the influence of the other language, or specific grammatical forms (imagine your language having various methods of constructing a plural form but under the influence of English, -s plurals becoming more and more frequent).
      I'm not sure how probable that is, but then, I'm also not sure where you got the idea from. Turkic and Mongolic languages borrowed words extensively from one another, not only grammar.

    • @EnginAtik
      @EnginAtik 5 років тому +2

      For Turkic-Mongolic extensive vocabulary borrowing seems to have happened since 1300. We can then assume that grammar borrowing happened simultaneously. This is the time of Genghis Khan and Middle Mongolian. We have documents written in Middle Mongolian. We can test the theory whether grammar borrowing happened simultaneously with vocabulary borrowing.

    • @EnginAtik
      @EnginAtik 5 років тому

      That is as we go back in time if we discover that vocabulary diverges but the grammar stays the same or similar between Turkic and Mongolian should we explain it by chance? We can also estimate the probability of this happening by chance, and the probability of having this happening for multiple languages.

    • @varana
      @varana 5 років тому +2

      @@EnginAtik To be honest, I would be _very_ surprised if exchange in vocabulary happened only after 1300. The language groups had close regional and cultural contact for millennia before that. The common political entity of Genghis Khan's empire may have contributed to the exchange of more obvious and well-known words but hat is only the surface.

  • @부엉이형-r8t
    @부엉이형-r8t Рік тому +7

    한국은 고대는 1500년전 까지만 하더라도 3~4개의 왕국이 아닌 수많은 소국들이 있었음 백제왕 과 고구려는 같은계통이고 고구려 백제 백성들은 다른언어를 썼을 수도 있고
    한반도는 일본어계통 만주어계통 몽골어계통 미지의 언어 까지 다 쓰였던것 같다 한반도가 신라어로 통일 되었다고 했었는데
    요즘은 고려어가 한국어의 직계 언어라고 한다

    • @33y852
      @33y852 10 місяців тому

      저는 엄마에게 한국어를 읽어 줬을 때, 엄마가 그것이 옛 터키어인 줄 알았어요! 아마도 그것은 우연이겠죠. 우리는 서양이 요구하는 대로 고립된 언어와 세계에서 가장 크고 아름다운 인도유럽어에 대해 믿습니다.

  • @aducharme01
    @aducharme01 5 років тому

    Oh, fantastic, I was really really hoping you would cover this topic. Thank you so much!

  • @peterszeug308
    @peterszeug308 5 років тому +24

    1:00 A lot of this also aplies to Finnish. I guess there has been extensive contact in the past by Uralic and Altaic peoples.

    • @Sovairu
      @Sovairu 5 років тому +2

      Not necessarily. Coincidences do happen.

    • @kawa-imilliye7317
      @kawa-imilliye7317 4 роки тому +5

      In Turkey there is actually some people claiming Finnish is Ural-Altaic but I don’t know if it’s true

    • @purpleapple4052
      @purpleapple4052 4 роки тому +1

      @Kai Houston "Finno-Ugric" is a thing but its just one main branch of the Uralic family, the other one being Samoyedic

  • @mildlifeisatrisk5727
    @mildlifeisatrisk5727 5 років тому +30

    Saw NativLanguage uploaded a new video, came faster than linguists criticizing Altaic theory -- and faster than the Moscow school throwing languages in this family 😅

    • @luishernandezblonde
      @luishernandezblonde 3 роки тому +2

      Russia isn't a fan of this Altaic ideology and yet it is the home of these proponents.

  • @lucasnascimentodasilva721
    @lucasnascimentodasilva721 5 років тому

    Great to see you back at pace with your videos man

  • @alexreid1173
    @alexreid1173 5 років тому +162

    My ap human geography teacher when I was in high school kept trying to say that Altaic was a language family...I tried to show him all the sources saying that it was at the very least controversial to no avail. Granted, he also insisted that sign languages weren’t real languages and ASL was just signed English. And people wonder why I don’t trust authority. 🤷🏼‍♂️

    • @mazsola1037
      @mazsola1037 5 років тому +27

      :I almost as bad as automatically assuming that one is a hyper-polyglot in studying linguistics

    • @GPrinceps
      @GPrinceps 5 років тому +32

      @@mazsola1037 Speak for yourself! My major in Linguistics granted me fluency in 30 languages! Including old languages not heard for a 100 years. This is the magical power of linguistics, bwahahahaha!
      /knows 3 languages fluently and they're all related

    • @taylor3950
      @taylor3950 5 років тому +21

      If ASL were just signed English it would be sooooo much easier to learn.

    • @argeliamendoza4047
      @argeliamendoza4047 5 років тому

      Same

    • @zanderrose
      @zanderrose 5 років тому +7

      This is why I think all english and history teachers should have to take linguistics classes in college

  • @mishka3284
    @mishka3284 4 роки тому +36

    I am Mongolian and learning Korean/Japanese is easier than learning Spanish

    • @hakancentoglu7872
      @hakancentoglu7872 3 роки тому +9

      @Ere K
      I am a Turk and it is easier for a Turk to learn Korean and Japanese than to learn English, Spanish or the languages ​​of our Neighbors Greek and Arabic.

    • @kingdomofmapping1988
      @kingdomofmapping1988 3 роки тому +1

      @@hakancentoglu7872 bu hala altayca diye bir dil ailesi olduğunu kanıtlamaz.

    • @hakancentoglu7872
      @hakancentoglu7872 3 роки тому +4

      @@kingdomofmapping1988 ben kanıtlar diye bir şey demedim zaten? sadece gramerimiz neredeyse aynı işte bunu kanıtlar.

    • @kingdomofmapping1988
      @kingdomofmapping1988 3 роки тому +1

      @@hakancentoglu7872 Bu yorumu altay ile alakalı bir videonun altına yaptığın için böyle düşündüm. Ve ben de, Altay olduğunu kanıtlamaz dedim, yani sırf öğrenmek kolay diye, bunu kastediyosan.

    • @_berat.ugur_3089
      @_berat.ugur_3089 3 роки тому

      BRUHHH YOU NİCK İS TURKİC :d HNHAAHHAHAHAH KHÖK = "KÖK" (TURKİC WORD) AND
      Teŋgri = TENGRİ ,,PLS DONT USE OUR LANGUAGE.

  • @itudis9279
    @itudis9279 5 років тому +2

    I have been intrigued by this hypothesis for soooo many years!

  • @aidenbagshaw5573
    @aidenbagshaw5573 4 роки тому +6

    Here's my answer for whether or not Altaic is a proper language family, and one that is most certainly accurate.
    Maybe.

  • @hyhhy
    @hyhhy Рік тому +5

    It does seem that Altaic is more likely a sprachbund than a language family (barring some linguistic breakthrough). Even though this might be disappointing to some, personally I find it a very fascinating aspect of the history of Eurasian peoples nevertheless.
    As a Finnish speaker, I can find all kinds of interesting similarities between my native Uralic language and the so-called Altaic languages. I find the idea quite plausible that proto-Uralic was in significant contact with the Altaic group in the past, as genetic studies seem to show that proto-Uralic speakers came to the Ural region from around Manchuria. But proto-Uralic speakers seem to have mostly inhabited the forest and swamp areas of northern Eurasia, and not the Eurasian steppe like many of the speakers of the Altaic group of languages.

    • @cheerful_crop_circle
      @cheerful_crop_circle Рік тому

      I think Proto-Uralic is a bit similar to Proto-Indo-European

    • @siyacer
      @siyacer 6 місяців тому

      Perhaps it's something about the similarities of the languages that make them much more likely to borrow and adapt from each other. After all, one of your relatives, Hungarian, did end up on the same Eurasian steppe as the Altaic peoples, and we all know how they feel about the topic.

  • @joalexsg9741
    @joalexsg9741 Рік тому +1

    Thank you for the most interesting video. I know that complex analyses are bound to be developed in scientific enquiry but sometimes even some scholars get lost in these complexities.
    Whatever it is, the fact is both Turkic, Finno-Ugric peoples and Hungarians seem to find some common grounds when learning each other's languages and it seems the same happens to Turkic and Mongolian languages as well. In practice, it's inevitable to find some spiritual/cultural connection by these similarities, whatever their reason might be and this is what will affect the lives of their speakers, nurturing bonds and fostering relations, especially in this era of intense communication via the internet and who knows what else the future will bring in that direction.

  • @HBon111
    @HBon111 5 років тому +3

    The timing of this video could not have come sooner! I just picked up a free copy of an old book: "Japanese and the Other Altaic Languages". by Roy Andrew Miller. Interesting to get the big picture take! Thanks for uploading. :)

  • @callumarnold2454
    @callumarnold2454 5 років тому +9

    Great video! It's pretty amusing to follow academic conflicts like this, and it can still prove educational as well! Although I do wonder, if Altaic never existed, and these Asian languages are unrelated, how rigorous are the proofs that other proto-languages use?

    • @Fletacarling
      @Fletacarling 5 років тому

      Thomas Winwood lol the old Irish declensions on wiktionary saved my life in undergrad 😭

    • @东皇太一-k7y
      @东皇太一-k7y 5 років тому

      because asia do not exist as europe....real asia is turkey...india china Japan vietnam does not belongs to a single culture circle called asia therefore the concepts of asia is like in the past. chinas called all lands west of persian daqin or daqian......it is a over generalization....

  • @zh84
    @zh84 5 років тому +1

    Fascinating. I am a computer programmer by trade and only have an amateur interest in linguistics. The first book I read on the subject was the Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Language, in the 1990s, which reports Altaic as a major language family like Indo-European or Afro-Asiatic. It is remarkable that in the time since the hypothesis has largely been dismantled again.

  • @patriciamcgeorge2575
    @patriciamcgeorge2575 5 років тому +4

    The thing about the "similar grammar" is that Australian Arrernte, Indo-European Hindi and American Navajo all have them, and Semitic Hebrew and Arabic, Celtic Welsh and Irish, and Nahuatl all have the exact opposite (same features but on the opposite sides of sentances)

    • @suondilut5027
      @suondilut5027 5 років тому

      Arabic and nahuatl with the same grammar?

    • @patriciamcgeorge2575
      @patriciamcgeorge2575 5 років тому

      @@suondilut5027 no no no - just, as similar as two Altaic languages, in terms of directionality. It's nowhere nearly the crazy stuff you get between Semitic and Celtic languages, but it's definitely as convincing as Turkish and Japanese (which is to say, not at all)

    • @patriciamcgeorge2575
      @patriciamcgeorge2575 5 років тому

      @mahmut mahmutoglu Now we're reaching into highly debated territory - you see, we don't *know* that proto-semitic (I'm assuming we're actually referring to Proto-Afro-Asiatic, since Hausa and Egyptian also have these features) had any contact with Proto-indo-european, though it's definitely possible. But it doesn't explain everything else there, ABS imho, it's completely irrelevant - it seems to make more sense that it's psychological - that the human mind likes to order words in predictable patterns so that the directionality of all phrases and structures in a sentence with the directionality of the sentance as a whole, in terms of where the agents are with respect to the predicate. Basically, sentences will tend towards being head-initial, head-central or head-final, this creating seemingly related grammar structures

  • @federicovolpe3389
    @federicovolpe3389 5 років тому +8

    1:27 I actually thought of Manchu, it was in Biblaridion’s “top 10”

  • @laerr
    @laerr 5 років тому

    I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS. Everything I love about language and all the questions I had are discussed on your channel. It's like the feeling of hot soup on a cold day, but all over my brain.

  • @KZoopam
    @KZoopam 5 років тому +70

    What about Ural-Altaic? How much drama do that cause?

    • @julianfejzo4829
      @julianfejzo4829 5 років тому +25

      It practically died in 1960, only nationalistic chauvinists believe that nonsense.

    • @marcoadmiralis_1497
      @marcoadmiralis_1497 5 років тому +21

      Fuck that shit from hungary, thats some turkish propaganda they used to find friends with because everyone hates them, us included

    • @sectorgovernor
      @sectorgovernor 5 років тому +28

      @@thomaswinwood Uralic and Indo-European also aren't related

    • @44asdasd44
      @44asdasd44 5 років тому +41

      @@marcoadmiralis_1497 No one cares about your friendship that's just a bunch of ultra-nationalists claiming that all people from steppes belong to one family and must form a new bigger country. But to hate an entire country for that bullcrap requires some more hostility and looks like you have it. I personally don't hate Hungarians and I find their language fascinating (even though it's hard to pronounce sometimes). I hope this hate between people end in time so that we can share things instead of trying to find new ways of killing each other.

    • @marcoadmiralis_1497
      @marcoadmiralis_1497 5 років тому +3

      @@44asdasd44 its hard to ignore people like most turks who have to mix and invent history for other peoples especially when they're this loud. i dont know how many turks have this obsession but they make it look like the majority does, im sorry for the people who are more intelligent even if they're the majority, but majority is rarely relevant especially in this cases. calling random people brothers, from countries that have been invaded by the so called brothers is the most annoying thing that can happen to people trying to enjoy their lives. and finally it is not these nationalists' job to tell unrelated individuals like indo europeans that hungarians, finns, or other ethnicities have this and that history becuase they might actually believe that, which honestly ruins our fame, so stop that

  • @Esth.1
    @Esth.1 5 років тому +11

    "To him something was fishy... on page one thousand seventy six(...)" holy shit 😂

  • @Abeturk
    @Abeturk 4 роки тому +1

    Anatolian Turkish.verb conjugations
    A= To (toward)(~for) (for the thick voiced words)
    E= To (toward)(~for) (for the subtle voiced words)
    Okul=School
    U=it's-(that)
    Git=Go ...Mek(emek)=exertion (process)
    Git-mek=(verb)= to Go ( it's originally get-mek =to get there now on )
    Gel-mek= to Come
    1 .currently present tense (now and then, right now or later)
    Yor-mak =~ to try (for the subtle and thick voiced words)
    A/e....Yormak= to try just mentally with..
    I/i....Yormak=to try both physical and mental with..
    positive..
    examples..
    Okula gidiyorsun ( you are going to school)= Okul-a Git-e-yor-u-sen ( School-to go-to-try it's-you) (You-are try-to-Go to school)
    Evden geliyorum ( I'm coming from home) = Ev-de-en Gel-e-yor-u-men ( Home-at-then try-to-come it's-me) (from home I try to come)
    negative...
    1.Ma= Not 2.Değil= it's not (equal) 3.(Ermez=emas)= not reached (not gotten)
    examples..
    A: Okula gitmiyorsun ( you are not going to school)= Okul-a Git-ma-u-yor-u--sen (School-to go-not-it-try it's-you) -You that try it's-not-Go to school
    B: Okula gidiyor değilsin ( you are not going to school)=Okul-a Git-e-yor değil-sen (You aren't trying-to-Go to school)
    Question sentence:
    Ma-u ?=(is) Not it?
    is used as....Mı-Mi-Mu-Mü
    Okula mı gidiyoruz? ( Are we going to school?)= Okul-a Ma-u Git-e-yor-u-(men)-iz ? ( To school it's Not we try to go ?)
    Okula gidiyor muyuz? ( Do We go to school?)= Okul-a Git-e-yor Ma-u-(men)-iz ? ( To school - Try-to-Go it's Not We ?)
    Okula gidiyor musunuz? (Do You go to school?)= Okul-a Git-e-yor Ma-u-sen-iz ? ( You are not Try-to-Go to school ?)
    2 .present simple tense (now and then, everytime, allways or never , anytime or at all, often,rarely or sometimes, soon, if possible)
    positive..
    (Bar-mak) Var-mak =~ to arrive (at) ...(to attain).....(for the thick voiced words)
    Er-mek=~ to get (at) ...(to reach).....(for the subtle voiced words)
    meaning....if possible this will happen (God willing--by god's permisson) inşallah Allah'ın izniyle..
    examples..
    Okula gidersin ( you go to the school)= Okul-a Git-e-er-sen (You get-to-Go to school)
    Hergün erken kalkarım (I get up early everyday)= Hergün er-u-ka-en kak-a-var-u-men ( I that get-to-direct (myself) up when that early everyday)
    Birazdan evden çıkarız (We'll be out of the house soon)= Bir-az-dan ev-den çık-a-var-u-men-iz ( In the house then we get-to-go out.. after a bit ..)
    Beni Unutursun (you'd forget me)= Ben-i Unut-a-var-sen ( you arrive-to forget (it's) me)-(~you've got it to forget about me)
    Arabaya Biner (s/he gets in the car)-if possible Araba-a Bin-e-er (s/he gets-to-ride to car)..by god's permission
    Babam İki Dakika Sonra Uçaktan İner (My father gets off the plane two minutes later) Baba-m İki Dakika Sonra Uçak-da-en İn-e-er
    negative... Ma= Not
    Bas-mak =~ to press onto/into.. (~to pass over) ...(for the thick voiced words)
    Ez-mek=~ to crush ...(for the subtle voiced words)
    meaning......Ma-bas= (no pass....) Ma-ez= (no crush...)
    example..
    Okula gitmezsin ( you don't go to school)= Okul-a Git-ma-ez-sen (You no-crush-to-Go to school)
    Seni bilmezler ( they dont know you)=Sen-i Bil-ma-ez-ul-dier (s/he and other ones crush-not-to-know about-you)
    O bunu yapmaz (s/he doesn't do this) = Bunu yap-ma-bas ( s/he no-pass-to-do this)
    Bu kalbimi kırmaz (that doesnt break my heart) = Bu Kalp-im-i kır-ma-bas ( This pass-not-to-break (that)-my heart)
    3.simple future tense (soon or later)
    Çak-mak =~ to tack ...(for the thick voiced words)
    Çek-mek=~ to attract , to catch , to pull, to take ...(for the subtle voiced words)
    example..
    Okula gideceksin ( you'll go to school)= Okul-a Git-e-çek-sen (You attract-to-Go to school)
    negative...
    A. Okula gitmeyeceksin ( you won't go to school)= Okul-a Git-ma-e-çek-sen (You catch-not-to-Go to school)
    B. Okula gidecek değilsin (there's not you to go to school)= Okul-a Git-e-çek değil-sen (it's not you taking-to-Go to school)
    4 . simple past tense (currently or before)
    Di = now on (anymore) Di-mek = ~ to deem , ~ to think, ~ to say
    is used as....(Dı-di-du-dü)
    example..
    Okula gittin ( you went to school)= Okul-a Git-di-N (You have Gone to school)
    Okula gitmedin ( you didn't go to school)= Okul-a Git-ma-di-N (You haven't gone to school)
    Dün İstanbul'da kaldım (I stayed in Istanbul yesterday)= Dün İstanbul-da kal-dı-M
    negative...
    Bugün burada kalmadılar (They didnt stay here today) =Bu,gün bu,ir-da kal-ma-dı-ul,dar
    5 . past tense (that we did not witness)- (just now or before)
    Muş-mak = ~ to inform ,
    meaning... I'm informed about - I realized- I'm notice- I got it- I learned so - I heard that...or it seems so (to me)
    if it's in the question sentence...do you have any inform about...do you know..did you heard...are you aware or does it look like happened so ?
    is used as....(Mış-miş-muş-müş)
    example..
    Okula gitmişsin ( I'm informed) you went to school)= Okul-a Git-miş-sen (I'm informed) You're Gone to school)
    negative...
    A. Okula gitmemişsin (I'm informed) you didn't go to school)= Okul-a Git-ma-miş-sen (I've been informed) You haven't gone to school)
    B. Okula gitmiş değilsin (I'm informed) you hadn't gone to school)= Okul-a Git--miş değil-sen (I've been informed) You aren't gone to school)
    others.
    Okula varmak üzeresin (You're about to arrive at school)
    Okula gitmektesin ( You're in (process of) going to school)
    Okula gidiyordun( Okula git-e-yor erdin) (You was going to school)
    Okula gidecektin ( Okula git-e-çek erdin) (You would go to school)
    Okula giderdin ( Okula git-e-er erdin) (You used to go to school) (2.~then you'd be to go to school)
    Okula gittiydin ( Okula git-di erdin) (I had seen you went to school)
    Okula gitmiştin ( Okula git-miş erdin) ( I know that) you had went to school)
    Dur-mak=to keep to be present there
    Durur=that keeps to be present there
    is used as....(Dır- dir- dur- dür- or Tır- tir-tur-tür)
    Bu bir Elma = This is an apple
    Bu bir Kitap = This is a book
    It's usually used on the correspondences and literary language...
    Within the official speeches its meaning is =(that keeps to be present there)
    Bu bir Elmadır= (bu bir elma-durr)= This is an apple keeps to be present there
    Bu bir Kitaptır= (bu bir kitap-durr)= This is a book keeps to be present there
    Within the daily talking its meaning is =( I think that or I guess that)
    Bu bir Elmadır= (bu bir elma-dur)= (Think that) this is an apple
    Bu bir Kitaptır= (bu bir kitap-dur)= (Guess that) this is a book
    Okula gidiyorsundur =( I think that) then you're going to school )
    Okula gidiyordursun =( Guess that) You was going to school )
    Okula gideceğimdir=( I think that)then I'm going to go to school )
    Okula gidecektirim =(Guess that) I would go to school )
    Okula gitmişlerdir =( I think that) they have been to school )
    Okula gitmişlerdir =( They have been to school ) (officially)
    Okula gitmiştirler =(Guess that) then they were gone to school )

  • @michaeltheboombringer2848
    @michaeltheboombringer2848 4 роки тому +13

    Vovin's bginning sentence: "I have to start this article on a somwhat pesonal note, so that I will not send those readers who have been closely following the Altaic debate for the last ten years into a state of shock when they read a little bit further." The most badass thing ever said in linguistics. A pity you didn't include it.

  • @Yasemin95857
    @Yasemin95857 4 роки тому +3

    I support the ural-altaic language family hypothesis. Languages are similar considering the word order in a sentence, also many common words and sounds. It is normal to see word differences considering the change of area as turkic people were nomads, but Orkhon inscriptions are in Mongolia borders now where turkic people used to live before. It is normal to see people with different looking considering the geographical changes and racial mixture. The other Turkic nations (kazakh, kyghiz, uyghur...) didn't leave the area they live, moreover they have strict culture which does not let them to mix with other races except for theirs, Turks in Turkey can understand their language at least 60% more or less. The Turkic people in Turkey mostly mixed with Europeans, Caucasians or middle easterns, but there are still Turks in Turkey who have asian turkic feature. The turkic language itself is an old language. I don't know about Mongolian or Finnish or Hungarian but Korean and Japanese languages are easy for me to learn. Like an italian learns English same language origin. Of course it does not mean that a British is an italian. Or an italian is a German. It means they lived together and they developed the language together. Maybe altaic language speakers were different tribes which live together spoke the same language and they fought against eachother and moved. The word order of korean or japanese fits my language more which makes it easier for me. We dont know how close they are connected, but they are connected languages. I don't think that Turkic language has any connection with Europe but middle Asia as even the Orkhon inscriptions are in middle Asia.

    • @PersianHistorian
      @PersianHistorian 4 роки тому +4

      Of course you support it. You are a turk!!!

    • @goldeviolets4314
      @goldeviolets4314 4 роки тому +4

      Yasemin Demir Have you heard of a Sprachbund? It explains everything without any complexities

  • @johnboyd782
    @johnboyd782 5 років тому +1

    Bravo! NativLang is great!

  • @Elessar00
    @Elessar00 5 років тому +6

    What i wonder is, what is the limit for the languages to count as a family? If 2 languages evolved from a parent language 1000 years ago, they would probably be closer than 2 languages that evolved 3000 years ago. Maybe they are related but they were seperated for too long? How do we determine that?

    • @valkeakirahvi
      @valkeakirahvi 5 років тому +6

      There's no limit, but it gets harder to proove the further we get.