Most of these items are a gimmick. If you drive extra ground rods and buy the biggest ground rods and run a larger conductor to them. That will help get rid of it. Most people don't realize that they don't have a very good grounding system. The electrical code is a minimum standard. That's the worst job allowable by law, if you can upgrade your grounding system, you can save your equipment
Possibly yes! Agreed 💯, that majority of the grounding systems are very poor. Ensuring an excellent Ground and about 25 sq.mm Grounding Cable along with proper AC SPD's & DC SPD's, one DC SPD close to every string of PV Panel and other close to MPPT(s) or inverter(s) deployed would be good. Upon that one may add a reliable EMP Protective device, if possible!
You have reduce the inductance and raise the current handling capacity. Use copper strap, not wire, for handling lightning strike. Use multiple ground rods leading away from the structure. You can include a copper wire if the code requires it, but that's not the thing to handle lightning currents.
Enuffstoomuch, Lightning strikes are high voltage and very low current. Electricity takes every path to ground, but you want to give it a good path to get out of your circuit, or it will create heat and explosions. The explosions are from high power, because of the super high voltage. But the current is very small so generally 4ott will get rid of a good amount of lightning Giving it multiple good paths to ground will definitely help get rid of it faster.
If it provides you a piece of mind an you sleep better then its a good purchase. Working in the electrical industry for over 25 years, I have never seen a product, commercial, or industrial to handle a direct strike. Trees, brick and stone can't handle a direct strike how can a magic black box. Think about it if it really worked they would be on every utility pole in a circuit and every home across the world. Low impedance grounding will help 5ohms or less which may require multiple ground roads, just remember your value of ground changes with soil moisture or the lack of. Tvss with high joule rating, and a multilayer approach will help. Indirect lightning or indirect emp all bets are off. Look if a emp happens and you think someone is going to warranty it, think again. but the good news is if a emp happens we wont get those telemarketer calls. Again a multi layer approach would be best, because we don't know where the direct or indirect strikes will occurs.
Would like proof that the company that makes that EMP Shield device actually honors their $25k warranty. Other well known "surge protector" companies also flout their warranty but there is enough people who have tried using that warranty to realize they find some way to get out of paying any warranty claims. Not saying these guys don't honor it but would like more proof than just something they say. Have you checked how exactly someone files a claim with them? Edit: their first requirement on their warranty claim is that it had to be installed by a licensed electrician.
I asked if they had any failures in the market. They said there were a few, and they had to replace a washing machine some other appliances. I didn't get a count.
Well at least that's a legitimate requirement, licensed electrician where are you going to find one of those haha! So they at least sound like they might be legitimate. There's been so much snake oil on the market lately it just breaks my soul.
For PV surge, placing a service loop into the voltage surge suppressor is just as bad as placing a service loop between supressor & ground. Think of it as a series circuit. Want low impedance between wire you are protecting (to house) and earth. Long wires are bad to keep resistance low but loops are REALLY bad due to their inductance. Can use loops strategically to limit current transients. Transient is very high frequency and loops attenuate. Put loops between panels and breaker. Loops between combiner box and house. No loops in path to ground. Multiple turns on loops increase attenuation. 12:42
Agree. Lighting is mostly radio frequency energy in the hundreds of kilohertz. Loops become inductors that diminish the suppressor effectiveness. The basic rules for RF are: short leads, no loops and no sharp turns (a sharp turn is effectively a 1/4 turn loop).
Some tips: Put all the stuff in a metal cargo container with one (small) location for in and outgoing cabling assemblies. At the location at the metal wall put voltage suppression elements 'in series'! Also, outside the container, loops formed in current circuits are to be avoided. With solar panels loops cannot be avoided but one can layout those in a 'bifilar' way. That will cancel out induction from the more remote lighting currents as much as possible.
The thing to realize is that a lighting strike (or if you're the paranoid prepper, EMP impuse) is a very fast rise-time injection of current into your system. This means its looks like a very high-frequency signal and you almost need to think about wiring stuff up as if it was RF. This is why the emphasis on short, straight conductors that don't have a higher inductive impedance than absolutely necessary. All this also applies to the path to ground, and having a low-impedance ground system, often done as a system of ground rods that are tied together. So connecting to the far end of the long bus bar isn't ideal. And you can also get a surge induced on neutral, which is a real issue in your installation especially since your ground and neutral are isolated. I had a lighting strike that blew up a bunch of RS-232 serial and USB equipment from what looked to be a surge on neutral. You need to verify that your protection device also protects against surges on neutral. A lot of this is pretty well understood from the broadcast transmitter application, where these antennas are often subject to lighting strikes, and it's as much about continuing operation, not just surviving a lightning strike.
Thanks for the vid. I would recommend though you run your PV into a dc isolator switch prior to the panel. Would be much safer than having to pull apart an MC4 connector to conduct any work.
If you have an actual situation where a surge protector did or did not work for you, please let me know in the comments. Get $50 off an EMP Shield using code "dave" and this link: www.empshield.com/?coupon=dave Get more details on this project on my website: projectswithdave.com/surge-protection/ Find More information on DIY home solar on my website: projectswithdave.com
We lost an entire large commercial solar field because an engineer didn't understand grounding as it applied to the panels and racking, and lightning struck. Our electricians told the engineer that his grounding would fail, but his books said different. I still believe all engineers should be required to spend a few years installing systems they design so they understand why we say they won't work. In my area engineering students at a well known university designed a 4 story library and were so proud of it as it was being built. When someone said the books were coming soon they said, "BOOKS ????". Seems they forgot to factor in the weight of the books in their design. Oooops.
@@ProjectsWithDave Not exactly sure. It was a very large system and they lost all the equipment on the pads. Our systems run over a million dollar per megawatt. But in the 24 years I was in electrical work, I can't recall one job that didn't have to be re-engineered. One job I was on was being inspected on a Monday by an engineer from Wash. DC. I asked him when he graduated. He said "Last Friday." I hope that device works for you, but I hope more that it never gets tested. Be safe my friend.
From my time as an Electronics Tech at mountaintop astronomical observatories I would be most suspicious of the grounding system. The typical grounding to electrical code is entirely inadequate for lightning protecting. The conductor size is miniscule and the inductance massive when facing the sort of amps involved in a strike. I wrote more of this just now in a another comment to this video. Very briefly, grounding for lighting means copper strap not wire connecting to an array of ground rods.
Any system running that much voltage in a string of panels should have a fence around it. Our systems now are 1200 volts. Don't forget the capacitive voltage that builds up in a string that isn't even connected to the inverter yet. I found that out the hard way. It discharges just like a capacitor...hard at first and quickly drops.
Since your panels are connected to ground posts and the mounting frame has continuity one thing to help would be bonding via a very direct short piece of braid copper from each post to the nearest lengthwise stringer. That will keep lightening from 'hunting' the best ground. Braid is better than wire because it handles the Radio Frequency component as it 'looks like a big fat wire' to lightning. Move the protection closer to the end of the rail near the ground buss bar and put as fat a wire as you can fit into it to the ground. Don't loop your ground wires, keep all protection device wires as short and direct for the same reason (it is not like you are going to amp-clamp those connections anyway). The protection block is also covering the long run to the house because cloud-to-cloud lightning can cause a very high induced voltage even though it is underground (the induced magnetic field doesn't care about dirt). Many people don't know about this, but it can mess things up easily and nobody can figure out why because they believed a lightning bolt was the bigger threat. It would be prudent to do a protection box inside the house before any equipment to cover that end as the solar array end might not dissipate all the energy. Last but not least, none of this will help one bit on a massive direct stroke - I've seen window screen plate itself onto window glass, turn switch boxes into empty holes in the wall. So, check your homeowners and look into a rider if your PV array / house powering gear is not covered. People assume a strike will be covered and appliances might be, but PV gear is different.
As you stated, the wire should be as short as possible. When I installed mine I put as close to the breaker! This is important to allow the lightning current to get to the surge suppressor before getting go any other breaker.
You seem to be under the strange assumption that Lighting follows ohms law. It does not., Lightning takes all and any paths to ground, not just the least resistance path to ground. This is why when it comes in power lines to a home it destroys the tv but not the refrigerator, maybe takes out the dishwasher but leaves the tv in a bedroom alone, etc. If lightning followed ohms law it would go straight to ground the first path it found and only loads in that path would be destroyed. Lighting will branch out and go where it wants to.
@@mikeanonymous669 Ohm's law does not actually state current takes the path of least resistance. It flows on all possible paths proportionally based on the individual path impedance.
I used to work on the CRT TV's. The voltage on the tube isn't what hurts. What hurts is dragging your arm across the metal frame of the chassis in a 19" portable TV. LOL!!! Enjoyed this !!! ( Newbie to the channel....) I'm just getting into solar. Learning as I go. Thank you for your help ! ! !
.... (Oops... forgot this ) .... 19" portable TV when the voltage hits you accidentally. It only takes once and a chicken stick becomes your best friend.
50 year old scope probes, the test lab cut the wires to be 3 inches long, and their test mechanism is a bunch of romex…their anechoic chamber in their test data is breaking so many industry best practices
I have seen pictures of a unit cut open. Very interesting results. Looked like a varistor led and I'm guessing some type of conductive epoxy material mostly. Not much in one. I'm guessing the varistor sends the transient current to the epoxy material and dissipates it through ground.
@@HighTechLabI agree, in the 1990's I was tasked with developing and testing aircraft communication radios that could sustain lightening strikes so, familiar with EMP protection which is very similar. From looking at the EMP Shield box, its hookup, and the company's testing, I'm sorry to report that it can't possibly do what they claim -- not even close. They also assume only the power line needs to be protected at some convenient connection point to the customer. With an EMP, most of the damage to electronics is due to the E1 pulse, which is at microwave frequencies, which easily passes through most shielding and gets picked up on the circuit board traces acting as antennas to pipe a few hundred volts into circuitry that has a maximum input voltage rating of 1.8 to 5 volts, depending upon the logic type.
The fact that they charge 50 bucks to replace under warranty, tells you it costs less than $50 to make 😂. If they sold it for a reasonable cost, they would get those fat government bills!
These could help with little surges from more distant lighnings. I'd connect the grouns directly to the grounding busss and not introduce additional connections to the path. Dont't use those terminals to connect your SPD to the case ground, connect diretly. You are adding 3 transitions to the path. Also skip the journey from the breakers to the terminal and back to the SPD. Make a Y cable, where the middle leg is going to the SPD. If you want it pretty, buy dual ferrules. Don't expect a miracle from those SPD. You would have 2-3 SPDs of different category chained in a serolious setup but they would still not provide 100% protection. (And would provide close to 0% protection for direct hit.) Even datacenters struggle to protect their equipment from direct hit and they pay fat bills for lightning protection.
Always great to check and double check for live wires. The electrical guys who wired this house must have been angry, because the breaker for "Outside lights and plugs" doesn't turn off any of the outside lights, or plugs. I've got two different non-contact testers and it's worth it to go up and down the ladder 5 or 6 extra times to check to make sure you won't have a bad accident 15 feet off the ground.
Yes, the recommendation is to connect as close to the supply as possible. The shorter the wires, the faster the response time. In my case I chose layout over response time.
Years ago we had the power company install something similar to these that protected the main box as well as our phone lines and Internet. After a couple years of replacing our safety device and/or damaged personal electronics after strikes, the power company guys told me that basically it’s a gamble trying to stop lightning from jumping a 2 inch gap so these boxes were basically, an insurance policy that they would pay out in the event that you get struck by lightning. 🤷♂️ Has anyone else been told this before?
Lightning risk varies greatly based on where you live. If you live in Hawaii then it is not that much of a risk but if you live in Florida then you should take it seriously. Do an Internet search for a keraunic map. It will show you lightning strike density. That value combined with you risk tolerance, cost of replacement, etc can help you determine how much concern you need to pay to lightning risk.
This closed the loop on some things that I wasn't understanding. From what I got out of watching your video both devices make a hard short, which in turn causes the breakers to pop earlier than they would of, if at all, on their own. Now, to understand why the emp devices are better than the surges that you installed at the PV box. Thanks for the video!
Both are essentially MOVs in a box. With the solar SPD blocks, they are one or two chunky MOVs. This device is probably a heap of MOVs in a box with perhaps, and that's a big perhaps, one or more GDTs. More MOVs equates to a higher probability of a MOV still functioning after a large belt rather than being blown to bits. That's it really.
Unless you have wires that run hundreds of miles, an CME/solar storm event isn't a threat. CMEs induce large DC currents in long distance power transmission lines and pipelines (even buried ones) caused by deflection and distortion of the Earth's magnetosphere. The closer those systems are to the Earth's magnetic poles, the worse the damage. But those currents are only induced to any extent in long conductors. It may take out the grid, but not your home installation. The danger here is voltage transients that may appear on your incoming AC power from the commercial power source caused by malfunctions in the utility's equipment. Still, a small threat compared to lightning and EMP. I think the risk assessments in your survey responses were proportionally accurate.
you thought of using a lightning rod in combination with the 12 dollar device. The entire protection installation for the house and panels cost me 900 euros and consists of: galvanized conductor, copper electrode, separation box, roof attachment accessories. Almost all are OBO brand.
Also interesting to note that EMP Shield states in their warranty that the unit will fail after one lightning strike. The Midnite Solar unit has been shown to survive after a high surge event such as lightning. You can search UA-cam for video on the Midnite one being tested at a facility showing it continuing to work after an emulated lightning strike.
EMP shield also can survive multiple events, but it is not guaranteed to do so. I expect the MidNite solution will also work, I just chose the EMP Shield version because it seemed a little more robust and part of the cost can be counted as insurance.
Depends on the technology they use to handle the surges. Some devices utilize a gas discharge tube which essentially acts like a fluorescent light bulb and lets an arc form in gas filled tube. That can take multiple hits but the gas degrades over time with each hit.
There has to be someone doing solar in Florida or Texas which I think is the lightening capitol of the world (actually that's in south America)But surely the lightening capital of the US. What a cool thing to do! build a system, ground and protect it, then test devices claiming to protect solar arrays. Living in Venezuela might not be as cool as it should be now. Maybe get a place in Houston Texas and build lightening tower so you can be sure to get a lightening strike to hit your array. At least the power of one. Rural and is really expensive there... Probably nearly as in Lake Maracaibo. Very heavy oil production area and metropolitan..
@@josephmiller6866What tests did they pass and have you seen the results? On their webpage they state that they were built to exceed a few standards like MIL-STD-188-125-1. But that standard and the others list tests for different scenarios, some are easier than others. I smell marketing BS but I could be wrong. I work for the govt, just because someone put something on one of the govt vehicles does not mean it works. More likely it means they money left at the end of the quarter and someone decided to spend it on this thing they heard about.
I discussed that with the tech at EMP Shield. They recommended the inverter ground lug because it eliminated the need to splice the ground wire in order to reach the ground rod directly.
when I was a kid I was working for small village mowing graveyards and village parks for the Summer! On small rise I was mowing a graveyard on small rise that was coming down the valley! My boss knew this and come to get me because of lighting storm! While I putting the mower away in shed and waling to truck a bolt of Lightning hit tree and split in half and fell onto the bed of the truck! I it was so loud my hearing was affected for 5 minutes!
Its good to have SPDs, but there are severe limitations to what they can do. The main problem with surge suppressors is that they work by essentially shorting the excess voltage across wire pairs. They can only handle so many joules from the surge and to avoid a fire there is always an inline fuse internal to the device. That is basically what "fails". So if the surge is small enough to not blow the fuse, the device survives to suppress another day. And if it does blow the fuse, the device becomes inoperable. The fuse is internal to the device and mandatory to prevent the device from catching on fire. Basically NONE of these devices can protect against a direct lightning strike, and very few can protect against more than one relatively close lightning strike without blowing the fuse and turning the device into a big nothing. What they protect against are very short high-voltage surges from not-so-close lighting strikes and other related phenomena that generally amount to less than a few hundred joules of energy (depending on the device it can be as little as 30 joules). A direct lightning strike puts far more energy onto the wires than these devices have even a mote of a chance of protecting against. There are SPDs that have integrated breakers and will trigger the breaker when the SPD trips. Note that regular breakers generally do not trip due to a lightning strike or power surge on their own. The SPDs with integrated breakers will trip the breakers if the SPD trips, protecting the circuit you connect to the breaker. Thus the circuit you connect to that particular integrated breaker will remain protected because the breaker will trip when the SPD does and the SPD hopefully holds the surge off for long enough for the breaker to trip. The SPD still becomes inoperable once its fuse blows but the devices hanging of the breaker remain reasonably well protected because the breaker has tripped. Of course, these voltage surges can be huge... big enough to arc across even a tripped breaker. But a tripped breaker offers more protection than no breaker. An example would be something like the Siemens QSA2020SPD (this is an AC 2-pole SPD with two integrated single-pole breakers). -Matt
Question to experts: Wouldnt those small wires have a far too big resistance to block the high current a lightning has? Or is inductance a far bigger point in that kind of current scenario, that a bigger wire wouldnt help that much? Edit: Can anyone with knowledge on that kind of stuff do some math on it?
and do not forget - surge devices are not permanent, more temporary like fuses, as in actually doing their jobs of protecting against each lightning strike steadily degrades them, so they must be swapped out after they degrade
what is your thinking on Alibaba solar tracking systems I need a 36 KW system if I go with dual axis trackers. US made stuff is 4 to 5 times the price.
Sorry if that sounded like a sales pitch. I'm just trying to share what I learn as I go. Unfortunately, In this case I can't do my own independent testing to validate the claims of any of these companies selling SPD's.
On the PV surge protector what is the ohm resistance between using the den rail ground and the direction ground bar? If you're wanting to avoid a direct lighting hit you don't really want all that voltage having to run across the thin rail then the painted box before it gets to the ground bar. I understand the install makes wiring look better and easier to install but if we're talking about possibly thousands of volt that added resistance could add up to your inverter getting fired. Just a thought... I'm no qualified to do anything. It would be a cool video if you could hit the box with a bunch of volts to see an explosion.
What matters is getting low resistance at the frequencies containing the power. Impedance is resistance at a given frequency. Transients contain a lot of high frequency content. IMO, assuming the green wire on the bus bar goes directly to earth, lowest impedance to ground is achieved by connecting to the screw terminal adjacent to the screw terminal holding the green earthing wire.
I’m wondering if you’re using busbars to the battery, if you can attach it to the busbars for the same results? Also, if you have multiple battery banks, all connected to the busbars?
Yes, you can connect to the busbar instead. Everything connected to the bus bar would be protected. The support at EMP shield is very good. If you have detailed questions about your system they can help you out.
Solar Flares are a lot more common we just dont always hear about it. " Did solar flare cause blackout 2023? A strong flare erupted from the Sun at 20:46 UTC (21:46 BST) on 7 August 2023, that has been described as a 'strong radio blackout' event. Aug 8, 2023"
If budget is your biggest concern I would apply the one for the whole home load center. It is required by code in some locations. This link is the budget brand version, it doesn't come with any insurance: amzn.to/3ENlV7o
I have seen a few reports on lightning protection for solar. My question is, is a standard home grounding system and cable sizing enough to safely take the potential thousands of volts amps from a lightning strike to ground? I have seen pictures of house roofs blown off when solar panels are struck and completely melted out distribution boxes. Is this equipment and cable sizing sufficient for lightning? I'm not convinced
If you had 20 checkpoints on the highway but only staffed the very last checkpoint, the enemy could access and destroy all assets of the checkpoints, up to and including the one that is staffed. Say goodbye to your junction boxes, diodes, wiring, mc4 connectors, as well as all circuitry on the other side of the unit. The threat of damage is systemic from every exposed conductor and resistor.
What? You really think that EMP shield that can only handle maybe 40Amps through those wires will protect a battery that can do hundreds of Amps? I don't think so. Tell me how I am wrong.
@@ProjectsWithDave Yeah, that one really stretches the imagination. I doubt that all of that copper going back to all of that surface area in your cells isn't better at shunting high voltages WAY better than the EMP Shield device.
The panels, and frame are all connected back to the main ground rod for the house. You can see the original install here: ua-cam.com/video/_xA6qOwnYbM/v-deo.html
I have portable solar generators. Would I be able to use the EMP shield with them? I was under the impression that it would not work with them. I have the whole house EMP Shield and an EMP shields for both my vehicles, but I am concerned with my portable solar generators. I have two that are running. I have the Bluetti AC200P, AC200Max, Two AC300 with each having two B300 batteries. The Two AC300 is not up and running yet I need two more solar panels and need 4 tilt stands. I need to get the electrician back in to create a oulet to get the MC4 cables outdoors. They want everything ready when they come and drill a hole.
My best advice is to go back on the grid when there’s a lightning storm! That way, it’s more than likely your system will be safe, once the lightning storm is gone, you can turn it back on.
I can say from a performance standpoint the transformers are great. I love my Victron inverters, they always work, never an issue with them. They power my large induction motors like the dust collector, table saw and drum sander with no issues. The Victron inverters have very low idle loss, lower than anything else I have tested. They do make a humming noise that can be annoying, so location matters. Current Connected offers extended warranty on their Victron equipment, and great knowledgeable service if you are looking for a source. I would bump up the the 5k though for some margin: www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-48v-multiplus-2-5kva-120v-inverter-70a-charger/?ref=pwd Or if you want to have a separate generator input: www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-48v-quattro-5000va/?ref=pwd
@@ProjectsWithDave....thank you for the information. i am leaning towards the eg4-18K, i am just worried about "all in one" types wont handle pool pump and ac compressors, at the same time. and i have heard about flickering lights with the high frequency type inverters. i know the transformer types can handle anything ya throw at it. from what i see the down side is victron makes us buy everything "ala cart" vs the all in 1 (sol-ark/eg4-18k).
Let me ask this, in the lightning, solar flare, or EMP, entering on the solar panels. These devices will not protect the panels. Only equipment after the panels?
They are semiconductors like so much else. They can be damaged even by nearby lighting including a good overhead cloud to cloud, doesn't have to be a direct hit. The reality of it is there really isn't much you can do about it since by nature they have to be out in the elements and they are rather big, ie quite easy to get high voltages appearing across the cells. All you can really do is ensure the frames are properly earthed (and that means more than piddly 10mm earth wire to an equally piddly rod) and have proper protection on the PV wires before they reach your solar charger / inverter.
Well, I can’t prove it works. If you don’t think the investment out ways the probability of it benefiting you at some point then I wouldn’t do it. You could always consider yourself “self insured”. You could even spend the money on some backup equipment if you wanted.
In Florida, our house was hit twice as a kid. My dad claims his house growing up in Missouri would be hit every couple of years... Can you just use a lightning rod as well?
I'm not an expert on the topic, but I know there are lightning rod solutions that would likely reduce the probability of a lightning bolt physically damaging your house. However, I think it is still likely you would get a surge on your electrical system that could be mitigated with a surge protector. I lived in Florida for a few years when I was younger and I distinctly remember a lightning striking a tree in our front yard. I happened to be looking out the window for that one as well. Florida is certainly more active than Ohio when it comes to lightning.
A guy in Kentucky I knew had a surge protector with a $50,000.00 Insurance 'policy' to cover his computer and electronics. AND when lightning hit near the building the computer and TV and all the electronics were Toasted and Fried. INCLUDING the surge protector. He could never even get the company on the phone to answer the claim since they were already going out of business. It cost him $3,000. to replace it all. A lightning bolt that hits a surface area that size there with a billion volts is not going to be protected by a little box you can hold in your hand. I worked in a high voltage gov contract co in the early 1970's in a cage testing electronics with million volt discharges from power supplies. And lightning is several billion volts in large multi mile discharges with thousand of amps. If you look in a scientific book called "Playing with Lightning" from the 1930's it shows a picture of a building in Massachusetts where a lightning strike literally cut the entire side wall off the side of a 2 story framed house like cheese in a cheese cutter and laid the entire wall intact on the ground next to the building during a storm that moved through that area. Bear in mind that in 1930, electronics that could get fried like today didn't even exist. They're gonna cover $50,000.00 ???? Show me the list of the payouts that they've done.
I agree nothing is surviving a direct hit from lightning. These units are designed to mitigate surges on the line. I did ask about payouts, which they claim to have made. I can ask for a list.
Absolutely there must be a written, signed contract to both parties. It's like asking your insurance covered to indemnify your property without a contract. Verbal contracts are subject to interpretation and open to litigation.
By not using a 240v ganged breaker you’ve set up a brown out scenario. If one leg pops but the other doesn’t you’ve got 120v on 240v circuits or no protection on one leg and protection on the other. You should at least add a connection bar between both breakers.
I believe by having separate breakers, if one breaker trips for some reason, the other leg of the system is still protected. If the breakers are tripped, the device will not operate to protect the system.
@@ProjectsWithDave if only one trips it will cause a surge on the other leg because of how center tap works. It will blow that leg and then brown out your 240v loads. One side will be saved, the other side will blow up and all of your 240 equipment will cook itself to death.
@@ProjectsWithDaveIdeally you want to open the main breaker to the panel should the protector signal failure or the breaker on the protector opens (one leg or both). If you don't all the loads on that panel will be left vulnerable to further surges. There's various ways to achieve this, you should look into doing it. Interestingly a very similar discussion has just taken place on Big Clive's channel regarding SPDs.
electronics will fry in nano seconds...I would rather spend that money on spikes in ground mounted higher than the product im trying to protect.Or use flat plate collectors that reduce the risk of lightning strikes..
I do not see this working for you in a true lightning strike on your home or array. My background (retired now) includes some years living and working at a mountaintop astronomical observatory. I was assigned to research, specify and install lightning protection. While the topic is very involved I'll stick what is missing in your system, and that is a low inductance, high current ground with an array of ground rods. In a lightning strike the currents are massive and instantaneous. The behavior of the ground conductor in such a rapid rise in current is to behave primarily as an inductor reacting to a high frequency. That means a high impedance. With a high impedance to the strike current, that current will find another path, as in everything you seek to protect. To solve this you need more than the round copper wire to a ground rod. What you need is a broad copper strap, with is low inductance and very high conductivity be it at DC, low frequency AC or the high frequency of a lightning strike. The strap is bonded at the metal mounting plate of the power entry point. Exiting the building it goes to a ground rod, but not just one. The strap continues below grade as far as you can afford to pay for the copper. The idea is to give the lightning current a low inductance path away into soil where it can be dissipated. When lighting current enters a ground rod it will charge the soil around it very quickly. As this happens the charge accumulating in the soil is impeding more charge entering the same rod, and flowing outward. In other words, the volume of earth that can be charged immediately is finite so far as the purpose of lightning protection is concerned. That charged area is, in an ideal case, cylindrical with the radius being equal to the length of the ground rod. In very good conductivity soils, that means the dissipation area for an 8 foot rod is a 16 foot diameter cylinder 8 feet deep. This varies greatly with soil conductivity, rarely is the ideal case realized. To prevent the charged areas interfering with each other the ideal case has the 8 foot ground rods spaced 16 feet apart. In one installation we ran 100 feet of 4 inch wide copper strap. (rolls of copper strap as narrow as 1.5 inches are sold for this application). Few ground rods could be longer than 4 feet due to hard rock. In each rod location we had to calculate a spacing for the next rod, it was a bit of hit and miss working that out. Had to pull some up out of the ground and move them closer to the prior one a few times. What you end up with is a dissipation field that can accept extremely high currents of near instantaneous rise time. Allowing all those unwanted electrons to flow away from the structure. Obviously there is much to this than the grounding system. There are multiple types of protective devices on the market. Possibly you have bought some but the wire leads on them leave me wondering how well they would survive or function under real strike conditions. Whatever devices you install to shunt surge currents into your ground, keep wires as short as possible, as in no loops and no remote mounting. The ideal is where the grounding surface of the shunt device has no wire, because it screws directly onto a copper plate. The plate to which the copper strap of the grounding system is bonded. I do not mean to promote any one company. Just as an example, this is the one where most of the hardware was purchased for the last system I was involved in. One last caveat, prices when I did this work were much cheaper, copper has risen a lot in the near three decades since. www.polyphaser.com/search?Category=Grounding&sort=y&view_type=grid Good luck to you!
@@ProjectsWithDave Not if you understand what happens should someone actually set off a high altitude bomb with that intent. The E series of events (look it up, not hard to find) will see all these MOV based devices failed well before the series is over. Your sensitive devices will be fried. Protection from an EMP attack is a lot more than a box of MOVs. Proper lightning protection requires decent effort too.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm constantly looking for the best balance between information and action. It did seem a little long after I put it together, but I was having so much fun researching the topic that's where it landed. : )
Question 🙋♂️ what happened after you payed all this money on an EMP protected device and a EMP hit. Your stuff is damaged because it didn’t work. Who are you going to call to complain 🤔
If that is a concern for you, there are other lower-cost brands that don't include a warranty you may want to consider such as this one: amzn.to/3Psk9h6
@@ProjectsWithDave A Warranty? Listen to what you just said. A warranty on something that’s supposed to work when an EMP hits. Omg🤦♂️ who are you calling for your warranty after an EMP attack? Wow! Just wow! You really think they will be open for business after an EMP to answer your calls. OMG 🤦♂️ You better not be holding your breath.
Also, people really shouldn't be worried about EMPs because there's be OTHER THINGS to worry about if that were to come to pass. Like global nuclear war.
*Ufer Grounding!!!* photovoltaic / solar thermal technician i saw Tiny Shiny Home video first and posted my whole comment 👍 regarding your dealing with lightning Dad joke time... is that why your hair is white? *cerveza for you* 🍺
Thanks for taking the time to document the installation.
Most of these items are a gimmick. If you drive extra ground rods and buy the biggest ground rods and run a larger conductor to them. That will help get rid of it. Most people don't realize that they don't have a very good grounding system. The electrical code is a minimum standard. That's the worst job allowable by law, if you can upgrade your grounding system, you can save your equipment
Possibly yes!
Agreed 💯, that majority of the grounding systems are very poor.
Ensuring an excellent Ground and about 25 sq.mm Grounding Cable along with proper AC SPD's & DC SPD's, one DC SPD close to every string of PV Panel and other close to MPPT(s) or inverter(s) deployed would be good.
Upon that one may add a reliable EMP Protective device, if possible!
You have reduce the inductance and raise the current handling capacity. Use copper strap, not wire, for handling lightning strike. Use multiple ground rods leading away from the structure. You can include a copper wire if the code requires it, but that's not the thing to handle lightning currents.
Enuffstoomuch,
Lightning strikes are high voltage and very low current. Electricity takes every path to ground, but you want to give it a good path to get out of your circuit, or it will create heat and explosions.
The explosions are from high power, because of the super high voltage. But the current is very small so generally 4ott will get rid of a good amount of lightning
Giving it multiple good paths to ground will definitely help get rid of it faster.
If it provides you a piece of mind an you sleep better then its a good purchase. Working in the electrical industry for over 25 years, I have never seen a product, commercial, or industrial to handle a direct strike. Trees, brick and stone can't handle a direct strike how can a magic black box. Think about it if it really worked they would be on every utility pole in a circuit and every home across the world. Low impedance grounding will help 5ohms or less which may require multiple ground roads, just remember your value of ground changes with soil moisture or the lack of. Tvss with high joule rating, and a multilayer approach will help. Indirect lightning or indirect emp all bets are off. Look if a emp happens and you think someone is going to warranty it, think again. but the good news is if a emp happens we wont get those telemarketer calls. Again a multi layer approach would be best, because we don't know where the direct or indirect strikes will occurs.
I agree, no box will save you from the damage of a direct strike.
You are 100% right on low impedance grounding and multiple ground rods.
Would like proof that the company that makes that EMP Shield device actually honors their $25k warranty. Other well known "surge protector" companies also flout their warranty but there is enough people who have tried using that warranty to realize they find some way to get out of paying any warranty claims. Not saying these guys don't honor it but would like more proof than just something they say. Have you checked how exactly someone files a claim with them?
Edit: their first requirement on their warranty claim is that it had to be installed by a licensed electrician.
I asked if they had any failures in the market. They said there were a few, and they had to replace a washing machine some other appliances. I didn't get a count.
Well at least that's a legitimate requirement, licensed electrician where are you going to find one of those haha!
So they at least sound like they might be legitimate. There's been so much snake oil on the market lately it just breaks my soul.
For PV surge, placing a service loop into the voltage surge suppressor is just as bad as placing a service loop between supressor & ground. Think of it as a series circuit. Want low impedance between wire you are protecting (to house) and earth. Long wires are bad to keep resistance low but loops are REALLY bad due to their inductance. Can use loops strategically to limit current transients. Transient is very high frequency and loops attenuate. Put loops between panels and breaker. Loops between combiner box and house. No loops in path to ground. Multiple turns on loops increase attenuation. 12:42
Agree. Lighting is mostly radio frequency energy in the hundreds of kilohertz. Loops become inductors that diminish the suppressor effectiveness. The basic rules for RF are: short leads, no loops and no sharp turns (a sharp turn is effectively a 1/4 turn loop).
Some tips: Put all the stuff in a metal cargo container with one (small) location for in and outgoing cabling assemblies. At the location at the metal wall put voltage suppression elements 'in series'! Also, outside the container, loops formed in current circuits are to be avoided. With solar panels loops cannot be avoided but one can layout those in a 'bifilar' way. That will cancel out induction from the more remote lighting currents as much as possible.
The thing to realize is that a lighting strike (or if you're the paranoid prepper, EMP impuse) is a very fast rise-time injection of current into your system. This means its looks like a very high-frequency signal and you almost need to think about wiring stuff up as if it was RF. This is why the emphasis on short, straight conductors that don't have a higher inductive impedance than absolutely necessary. All this also applies to the path to ground, and having a low-impedance ground system, often done as a system of ground rods that are tied together.
So connecting to the far end of the long bus bar isn't ideal. And you can also get a surge induced on neutral, which is a real issue in your installation especially since your ground and neutral are isolated. I had a lighting strike that blew up a bunch of RS-232 serial and USB equipment from what looked to be a surge on neutral. You need to verify that your protection device also protects against surges on neutral.
A lot of this is pretty well understood from the broadcast transmitter application, where these antennas are often subject to lighting strikes, and it's as much about continuing operation, not just surviving a lightning strike.
Yes, shorter wires is better. I chose layout over performance, maybe future Dave will be unhappy about that. : )
Thanks for the vid. I would recommend though you run your PV into a dc isolator switch prior to the panel. Would be much safer than having to pull apart an MC4 connector to conduct any work.
If you have an actual situation where a surge protector did or did not work for you, please let me know in the comments.
Get $50 off an EMP Shield using code "dave" and this link: www.empshield.com/?coupon=dave
Get more details on this project on my website: projectswithdave.com/surge-protection/
Find More information on DIY home solar on my website: projectswithdave.com
We lost an entire large commercial solar field because an engineer didn't understand grounding as it applied to the panels and racking, and lightning struck. Our electricians told the engineer that his grounding would fail, but his books said different. I still believe all engineers should be required to spend a few years installing systems they design so they understand why we say they won't work. In my area engineering students at a well known university designed a 4 story library and were so proud of it as it was being built. When someone said the books were coming soon they said, "BOOKS ????". Seems they forgot to factor in the weight of the books in their design. Oooops.
What was the grounding failure on the commercial system and what should have been done to correct it?
@@ProjectsWithDave Not exactly sure. It was a very large system and they lost all the equipment on the pads. Our systems run over a million dollar per megawatt. But in the 24 years I was in electrical work, I can't recall one job that didn't have to be re-engineered. One job I was on was being inspected on a Monday by an engineer from Wash. DC. I asked him when he graduated. He said "Last Friday." I hope that device works for you, but I hope more that it never gets tested. Be safe my friend.
From my time as an Electronics Tech at mountaintop astronomical observatories I would be most suspicious of the grounding system. The typical grounding to electrical code is entirely inadequate for lightning protecting. The conductor size is miniscule and the inductance massive when facing the sort of amps involved in a strike. I wrote more of this just now in a another comment to this video. Very briefly, grounding for lighting means copper strap not wire connecting to an array of ground rods.
"Not interested in getting hit by 500 volts." Amen to that, lol
Yeah, it could activate your muscles and clamp you on as well because it is DC!
Any system running that much voltage in a string of panels should have a fence around it. Our systems now are 1200 volts. Don't forget the capacitive voltage that builds up in a string that isn't even connected to the inverter yet. I found that out the hard way. It discharges just like a capacitor...hard at first and quickly drops.
Since your panels are connected to ground posts and the mounting frame has continuity one thing to help would be bonding via a very direct short piece of braid copper from each post to the nearest lengthwise stringer. That will keep lightening from 'hunting' the best ground. Braid is better than wire because it handles the Radio Frequency component as it 'looks like a big fat wire' to lightning.
Move the protection closer to the end of the rail near the ground buss bar and put as fat a wire as you can fit into it to the ground. Don't loop your ground wires, keep all protection device wires as short and direct for the same reason (it is not like you are going to amp-clamp those connections anyway). The protection block is also covering the long run to the house because cloud-to-cloud lightning can cause a very high induced voltage even though it is underground (the induced magnetic field doesn't care about dirt). Many people don't know about this, but it can mess things up easily and nobody can figure out why because they believed a lightning bolt was the bigger threat. It would be prudent to do a protection box inside the house before any equipment to cover that end as the solar array end might not dissipate all the energy.
Last but not least, none of this will help one bit on a massive direct stroke - I've seen window screen plate itself onto window glass, turn switch boxes into empty holes in the wall. So, check your homeowners and look into a rider if your PV array / house powering gear is not covered. People assume a strike will be covered and appliances might be, but PV gear is different.
Thanks for the in-depth feedback!
As you stated, the wire should be as short as possible. When I installed mine I put as close to the breaker! This is important to allow the lightning current to get to the surge suppressor before getting go any other breaker.
Yes, shorter is better.
You seem to be under the strange assumption that Lighting follows ohms law. It does not., Lightning takes all and any paths to ground, not just the least resistance path to ground. This is why when it comes in power lines to a home it destroys the tv but not the refrigerator, maybe takes out the dishwasher but leaves the tv in a bedroom alone, etc. If lightning followed ohms law it would go straight to ground the first path it found and only loads in that path would be destroyed. Lighting will branch out and go where it wants to.
@@mikeanonymous669 Ohm's law does not actually state current takes the path of least resistance. It flows on all possible paths proportionally based on the individual path impedance.
I used to work on the CRT TV's. The voltage on the tube isn't what hurts. What hurts is dragging your arm across the metal frame of the chassis in a 19" portable TV. LOL!!! Enjoyed this !!! ( Newbie to the channel....) I'm just getting into solar. Learning as I go. Thank you for your help ! ! !
.... (Oops... forgot this ) .... 19" portable TV when the voltage hits you accidentally. It only takes once and a chicken stick becomes your best friend.
I'm glad you're finding it helpful!
Dave the EMP shield test data is mostly bogus. It’s $20 in parts and $380 in marketing.
50 year old scope probes, the test lab cut the wires to be 3 inches long, and their test mechanism is a bunch of romex…their anechoic chamber in their test data is breaking so many industry best practices
Do you have a better recommendation for surge protection?
Are you saying these don't work?
I have seen pictures of a unit cut open. Very interesting results. Looked like a varistor led and I'm guessing some type of conductive epoxy material mostly. Not much in one. I'm guessing the varistor sends the transient current to the epoxy material and dissipates it through ground.
@@HighTechLabI agree, in the 1990's I was tasked with developing and testing aircraft communication radios that could sustain lightening strikes so, familiar with EMP protection which is very similar. From looking at the EMP Shield box, its hookup, and the company's testing, I'm sorry to report that it can't possibly do what they claim -- not even close. They also assume only the power line needs to be protected at some convenient connection point to the customer. With an EMP, most of the damage to electronics is due to the E1 pulse, which is at microwave frequencies, which easily passes through most shielding and gets picked up on the circuit board traces acting as antennas to pipe a few hundred volts into circuitry that has a maximum input voltage rating of 1.8 to 5 volts, depending upon the logic type.
The fact that they charge 50 bucks to replace under warranty, tells you it costs less than $50 to make 😂. If they sold it for a reasonable cost, they would get those fat government bills!
These could help with little surges from more distant lighnings. I'd connect the grouns directly to the grounding busss and not introduce additional connections to the path. Dont't use those terminals to connect your SPD to the case ground, connect diretly. You are adding 3 transitions to the path. Also skip the journey from the breakers to the terminal and back to the SPD. Make a Y cable, where the middle leg is going to the SPD. If you want it pretty, buy dual ferrules.
Don't expect a miracle from those SPD. You would have 2-3 SPDs of different category chained in a serolious setup but they would still not provide 100% protection. (And would provide close to 0% protection for direct hit.) Even datacenters struggle to protect their equipment from direct hit and they pay fat bills for lightning protection.
Thanks for the feedback. A direct hit will cause physical damage, no little box can fix that.
You're now ready for a lightning strike that we hope never happens. Good job.
Always great to check and double check for live wires. The electrical guys who wired this house must have been angry, because the breaker for "Outside lights and plugs" doesn't turn off any of the outside lights, or plugs. I've got two different non-contact testers and it's worth it to go up and down the ladder 5 or 6 extra times to check to make sure you won't have a bad accident 15 feet off the ground.
The EMP shield should be connected to the first two breakers after the supply, not the last two,
🎉
Yes, the recommendation is to connect as close to the supply as possible. The shorter the wires, the faster the response time. In my case I chose layout over response time.
Years ago we had the power company install something similar to these that protected the main box as well as our phone lines and Internet. After a couple years of replacing our safety device and/or damaged personal electronics after strikes, the power company guys told me that basically it’s a gamble trying to stop lightning from jumping a 2 inch gap so these boxes were basically, an insurance policy that they would pay out in the event that you get struck by lightning. 🤷♂️ Has anyone else been told this before?
Lightning risk varies greatly based on where you live.
If you live in Hawaii then it is not that much of a risk but if you live in Florida then you should take it seriously.
Do an Internet search for a keraunic map. It will show you lightning strike density. That value combined with you risk tolerance, cost of replacement, etc can help you determine how much concern you need to pay to lightning risk.
Great point, the risk is not evenly distributed. I grew up in Alaska, almost no lightning there.
This closed the loop on some things that I wasn't understanding. From what I got out of watching your video both devices make a hard short, which in turn causes the breakers to pop earlier than they would of, if at all, on their own. Now, to understand why the emp devices are better than the surges that you installed at the PV box. Thanks for the video!
The device responds in less than a millisecond. Way faster than the breaker can trip.
Both are essentially MOVs in a box. With the solar SPD blocks, they are one or two chunky MOVs. This device is probably a heap of MOVs in a box with perhaps, and that's a big perhaps, one or more GDTs. More MOVs equates to a higher probability of a MOV still functioning after a large belt rather than being blown to bits. That's it really.
Unless you have wires that run hundreds of miles, an CME/solar storm event isn't a threat. CMEs induce large DC currents in long distance power transmission lines and pipelines (even buried ones) caused by deflection and distortion of the Earth's magnetosphere. The closer those systems are to the Earth's magnetic poles, the worse the damage. But those currents are only induced to any extent in long conductors. It may take out the grid, but not your home installation. The danger here is voltage transients that may appear on your incoming AC power from the commercial power source caused by malfunctions in the utility's equipment. Still, a small threat compared to lightning and EMP. I think the risk assessments in your survey responses were proportionally accurate.
you thought of using a lightning rod in combination with the 12 dollar device. The entire protection installation for the house and panels cost me 900 euros and consists of: galvanized conductor, copper electrode, separation box, roof attachment accessories. Almost all are OBO brand.
how to not install a surge protector
Also interesting to note that EMP Shield states in their warranty that the unit will fail after one lightning strike. The Midnite Solar unit has been shown to survive after a high surge event such as lightning. You can search UA-cam for video on the Midnite one being tested at a facility showing it continuing to work after an emulated lightning strike.
EMP shield also can survive multiple events, but it is not guaranteed to do so. I expect the MidNite solution will also work, I just chose the EMP Shield version because it seemed a little more robust and part of the cost can be counted as insurance.
true, they degrade like fuses in doing their job, they are not fit-and-forget
Depends on the technology they use to handle the surges. Some devices utilize a gas discharge tube which essentially acts like a fluorescent light bulb and lets an arc form in gas filled tube. That can take multiple hits but the gas degrades over time with each hit.
There has to be someone doing solar in Florida or Texas which I think is the lightening capitol of the world (actually that's in south America)But surely the lightening capital of the US. What a cool thing to do! build a system, ground and protect it, then test devices claiming to protect solar arrays. Living in Venezuela might not be as cool as it should be now. Maybe get a place in Houston Texas and build lightening tower so you can be sure to get a lightening strike to hit your array. At least the power of one. Rural and is really expensive there... Probably nearly as in Lake Maracaibo. Very heavy oil production area and metropolitan..
EMP Sheild is a good company. I trust them and all there testing. I have them on my vehicles
What gives you that confidence?
They have been test through DHS, DOD. They are on some Government vehicles so i tend to trust them more.
@@josephmiller6866What tests did they pass and have you seen the results?
On their webpage they state that they were built to exceed a few standards like MIL-STD-188-125-1.
But that standard and the others list tests for different scenarios, some are easier than others.
I smell marketing BS but I could be wrong.
I work for the govt, just because someone put something on one of the govt vehicles does not mean it works.
More likely it means they money left at the end of the quarter and someone decided to spend it on this thing they heard about.
I believe the earth wire from the emp is sopose to go straight to a ground rod in the ground rather than being connected to a ground on the inverter
I discussed that with the tech at EMP Shield. They recommended the inverter ground lug because it eliminated the need to splice the ground wire in order to reach the ground rod directly.
@@ProjectsWithDave alright
when I was a kid I was working for small village mowing graveyards and village parks for the Summer! On small rise I was mowing a graveyard on small rise that was coming down the valley! My boss knew this and come to get me because of lighting storm! While I putting the mower away in shed and waling to truck a bolt of Lightning hit tree and split in half and fell onto the bed of the truck! I it was so loud my hearing was affected for 5 minutes!
If you nearly get struck by lightning in a graveyard I guess God is trying to get your attention! : )
Its good to have SPDs, but there are severe limitations to what they can do.
The main problem with surge suppressors is that they work by essentially shorting the excess voltage across wire pairs. They can only handle so many joules from the surge and to avoid a fire there is always an inline fuse internal to the device. That is basically what "fails". So if the surge is small enough to not blow the fuse, the device survives to suppress another day. And if it does blow the fuse, the device becomes inoperable. The fuse is internal to the device and mandatory to prevent the device from catching on fire.
Basically NONE of these devices can protect against a direct lightning strike, and very few can protect against more than one relatively close lightning strike without blowing the fuse and turning the device into a big nothing. What they protect against are very short high-voltage surges from not-so-close lighting strikes and other related phenomena that generally amount to less than a few hundred joules of energy (depending on the device it can be as little as 30 joules).
A direct lightning strike puts far more energy onto the wires than these devices have even a mote of a chance of protecting against.
There are SPDs that have integrated breakers and will trigger the breaker when the SPD trips. Note that regular breakers generally do not trip due to a lightning strike or power surge on their own.
The SPDs with integrated breakers will trip the breakers if the SPD trips, protecting the circuit you connect to the breaker. Thus the circuit you connect to that particular integrated breaker will remain protected because the breaker will trip when the SPD does and the SPD hopefully holds the surge off for long enough for the breaker to trip. The SPD still becomes inoperable once its fuse blows but the devices hanging of the breaker remain reasonably well protected because the breaker has tripped.
Of course, these voltage surges can be huge... big enough to arc across even a tripped breaker. But a tripped breaker offers more protection than no breaker.
An example would be something like the Siemens QSA2020SPD (this is an AC 2-pole SPD with two integrated single-pole breakers).
-Matt
Thanks for adding some detail on the limitations of SPD's, I didn't spend much time on that in the video.
Dave, could you please explain how you 'earthed' this grounding system beginning at the Array and (obviously) ending at the Service Entrance. Thanks
The racking system and panels are all bonded together with a #6 copper wire which has a continuous run to the house ground rod.
Question to experts: Wouldnt those small wires have a far too big resistance to block the high current a lightning has? Or is inductance a far bigger point in that kind of current scenario, that a bigger wire wouldnt help that much? Edit: Can anyone with knowledge on that kind of stuff do some math on it?
and do not forget - surge devices are not permanent, more temporary like fuses, as in actually doing their jobs of protecting against each lightning strike steadily degrades them, so they must be swapped out after they degrade
How about 3” hail?
If you have 3" hail you may want to go with a vertical install like this one: ua-cam.com/video/5AVO1IyfA9M/v-deo.html
9:25 that should be a tandem breaker and not two separate breakers to isolate both circuit legs on fault condition/maintenance.
I did it that way to maintain protection on the other leg if one fails.
what is your thinking on Alibaba solar tracking systems I need a 36 KW system if I go with dual axis trackers. US made stuff is 4 to 5 times the price.
You are running an mppt that can accept maximum 450 volts voc. I would be concerned if your panels are putting out 500 volts.
I just stopped at EMP Shield... Thanks for the sales pitch.
Sorry if that sounded like a sales pitch. I'm just trying to share what I learn as I go. Unfortunately, In this case I can't do my own independent testing to validate the claims of any of these companies selling SPD's.
your loss. I saw that you still bothered to troll the post though.
You better read that warranty carefully. It’s is most likely not covering what you think it means. I did look it up and read it! It’s not worth much.
On the PV surge protector what is the ohm resistance between using the den rail ground and the direction ground bar? If you're wanting to avoid a direct lighting hit you don't really want all that voltage having to run across the thin rail then the painted box before it gets to the ground bar.
I understand the install makes wiring look better and easier to install but if we're talking about possibly thousands of volt that added resistance could add up to your inverter getting fired.
Just a thought... I'm no qualified to do anything.
It would be a cool video if you could hit the box with a bunch of volts to see an explosion.
Yes for surge protection you want the lowest impedance path to ground possible. Short, high gauge wires with the minimum of connections.
The DIN Rail connector provides the shortest path to ground. The DIN rail is screwed to the case and has less resistance than the 10AWG wire.
What matters is getting low resistance at the frequencies containing the power. Impedance is resistance at a given frequency. Transients contain a lot of high frequency content. IMO, assuming the green wire on the bus bar goes directly to earth, lowest impedance to ground is achieved by connecting to the screw terminal adjacent to the screw terminal holding the green earthing wire.
I’m wondering if you’re using busbars to the battery, if you can attach it to the busbars for the same results?
Also, if you have multiple battery banks, all connected to the busbars?
Yes, you can connect to the busbar instead. Everything connected to the bus bar would be protected. The support at EMP shield is very good. If you have detailed questions about your system they can help you out.
Solar Flares are a lot more common we just dont always hear about it. " Did solar flare cause blackout 2023?
A strong flare erupted from the Sun at 20:46 UTC (21:46 BST) on 7 August 2023, that has been described as a 'strong radio blackout' event. Aug 8, 2023"
If you could only afford one surge protector, which one would it be? I would need to get them one at a time in order of importance.
If budget is your biggest concern I would apply the one for the whole home load center. It is required by code in some locations. This link is the budget brand version, it doesn't come with any insurance: amzn.to/3ENlV7o
I have seen a few reports on lightning protection for solar. My question is, is a standard home grounding system and cable sizing enough to safely take the potential thousands of volts amps from a lightning strike to ground? I have seen pictures of house roofs blown off when solar panels are struck and completely melted out distribution boxes. Is this equipment and cable sizing sufficient for lightning? I'm not convinced
These devices will protect from surges caused by nearby events, not direct lightning strikes. As you said direct strikes cause physical damage.
It’d certainly make sense to actually ground the Victron Multiplus case ground back to ground…
Yes! It is grounded. Otherwise it would be pointless to land on the case. : )
@@ProjectsWithDave you only have one wire on the post, you want another going to ground
The case is already grounded.
If you had 20 checkpoints on the highway but only staffed the very last checkpoint, the enemy could access and destroy all assets of the checkpoints, up to and including the one that is staffed. Say goodbye to your junction boxes, diodes, wiring, mc4 connectors, as well as all circuitry on the other side of the unit. The threat of damage is systemic from every exposed conductor and resistor.
What? You really think that EMP shield that can only handle maybe 40Amps through those wires will protect a battery that can do hundreds of Amps? I don't think so. Tell me how I am wrong.
It's not shunting the battery output, it is shunting a very high voltage short duration spike on the line.
@@ProjectsWithDave Yeah, that one really stretches the imagination. I doubt that all of that copper going back to all of that surface area in your cells isn't better at shunting high voltages WAY better than the EMP Shield device.
In the box at your solar panels, there is a green ground wire going from the grounding bus bar and out the conduit. Where does it end?
The panels, and frame are all connected back to the main ground rod for the house. You can see the original install here: ua-cam.com/video/_xA6qOwnYbM/v-deo.html
Did you do a video on the installation of that Vevor enclosure box?
Yes, you can see it here: ua-cam.com/video/IZjISqEWglU/v-deo.html
I have portable solar generators. Would I be able to use the EMP shield with them? I was under the impression that it would not work with them. I have the whole house EMP Shield and an EMP shields for both my vehicles, but I am concerned with my portable solar generators. I have two that are running. I have the Bluetti AC200P, AC200Max, Two AC300 with each having two B300 batteries. The Two AC300 is not up and running yet I need two more solar panels and need 4 tilt stands. I need to get the electrician back in to create a oulet to get the MC4 cables outdoors. They want everything ready when they come and drill a hole.
For the EMP shield to work, it needs a path to ground. Are your units connected to the household ground in any way?
My best advice is to go back on the grid when there’s a lightning storm! That way, it’s more than likely your system will be safe, once the lightning storm is gone, you can turn it back on.
thanks for this video.
how do you like the victron(s)? i would like to use them ( i like the idea of a transformer-vs HF inverters).
I can say from a performance standpoint the transformers are great. I love my Victron inverters, they always work, never an issue with them. They power my large induction motors like the dust collector, table saw and drum sander with no issues. The Victron inverters have very low idle loss, lower than anything else I have tested. They do make a humming noise that can be annoying, so location matters. Current Connected offers extended warranty on their Victron equipment, and great knowledgeable service if you are looking for a source.
I would bump up the the 5k though for some margin: www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-48v-multiplus-2-5kva-120v-inverter-70a-charger/?ref=pwd
Or if you want to have a separate generator input: www.currentconnected.com/product/victron-48v-quattro-5000va/?ref=pwd
@@ProjectsWithDave....thank you for the information. i am leaning towards the eg4-18K, i am just worried about "all in one" types wont handle pool pump and ac compressors, at the same time. and i have heard about flickering lights with the high frequency type inverters.
i know the transformer types can handle anything ya throw at it. from what i see the down side is victron makes us buy everything "ala cart" vs the all in 1 (sol-ark/eg4-18k).
Let me ask this, in the lightning, solar flare, or EMP, entering on the solar panels. These devices will not protect the panels. Only equipment after the panels?
If the panels are hit directly by lightning, they will sustain damage.
They are semiconductors like so much else. They can be damaged even by nearby lighting including a good overhead cloud to cloud, doesn't have to be a direct hit. The reality of it is there really isn't much you can do about it since by nature they have to be out in the elements and they are rather big, ie quite easy to get high voltages appearing across the cells. All you can really do is ensure the frames are properly earthed (and that means more than piddly 10mm earth wire to an equally piddly rod) and have proper protection on the PV wires before they reach your solar charger / inverter.
didnt emp shield also claim you could emp proof your car? Sounds like bs to me...
Well, I can’t prove it works. If you don’t think the investment out ways the probability of it benefiting you at some point then I wouldn’t do it. You could always consider yourself “self insured”. You could even spend the money on some backup equipment if you wanted.
Wouldn't an lightning arrestor be useful
In Florida, our house was hit twice as a kid. My dad claims his house growing up in Missouri would be hit every couple of years... Can you just use a lightning rod as well?
I'm not an expert on the topic, but I know there are lightning rod solutions that would likely reduce the probability of a lightning bolt physically damaging your house. However, I think it is still likely you would get a surge on your electrical system that could be mitigated with a surge protector. I lived in Florida for a few years when I was younger and I distinctly remember a lightning striking a tree in our front yard. I happened to be looking out the window for that one as well. Florida is certainly more active than Ohio when it comes to lightning.
A guy in Kentucky I knew had a surge protector with a $50,000.00 Insurance 'policy' to cover his computer and electronics. AND when lightning hit near the building the computer and TV and all the electronics were Toasted and Fried. INCLUDING the surge protector. He could never even get the company on the phone to answer the claim since they were already going out of business. It cost him $3,000. to replace it all.
A lightning bolt that hits a surface area that size there with a billion volts is not going to be protected by a little box you can hold in your hand. I worked in a high voltage gov contract co in the early 1970's in a cage testing electronics with million volt discharges from power supplies. And lightning is several billion volts in large multi mile discharges with thousand of amps. If you look in a scientific book called "Playing with Lightning" from the 1930's it shows a picture of a building in Massachusetts where a lightning strike literally cut the entire side wall off the side of a 2 story framed house like cheese in a cheese cutter and laid the entire wall intact on the ground next to the building during a storm that moved through that area.
Bear in mind that in 1930, electronics that could get fried like today didn't even exist.
They're gonna cover $50,000.00 ???? Show me the list of the payouts that they've done.
I agree nothing is surviving a direct hit from lightning. These units are designed to mitigate surges on the line. I did ask about payouts, which they claim to have made. I can ask for a list.
In order to be able to get paid under a claim by anyone, you literally have to be written into their liability insurance policy.
Absolutely there must be a written, signed contract to both parties. It's like asking your insurance covered to indemnify your property without a contract. Verbal contracts are subject to interpretation and open to litigation.
By not using a 240v ganged breaker you’ve set up a brown out scenario. If one leg pops but the other doesn’t you’ve got 120v on 240v circuits or no protection on one leg and protection on the other.
You should at least add a connection bar between both breakers.
I believe by having separate breakers, if one breaker trips for some reason, the other leg of the system is still protected. If the breakers are tripped, the device will not operate to protect the system.
@@ProjectsWithDave if only one trips it will cause a surge on the other leg because of how center tap works. It will blow that leg and then brown out your 240v loads. One side will be saved, the other side will blow up and all of your 240 equipment will cook itself to death.
@@ProjectsWithDaveIdeally you want to open the main breaker to the panel should the protector signal failure or the breaker on the protector opens (one leg or both). If you don't all the loads on that panel will be left vulnerable to further surges. There's various ways to achieve this, you should look into doing it.
Interestingly a very similar discussion has just taken place on Big Clive's channel regarding SPDs.
electronics will fry in nano seconds...I would rather spend that money on spikes in ground mounted higher than the product im trying to protect.Or use flat plate collectors that reduce the risk of lightning strikes..
I do not see this working for you in a true lightning strike on your home or array. My background (retired now) includes some years living and working at a mountaintop astronomical observatory. I was assigned to research, specify and install lightning protection. While the topic is very involved I'll stick what is missing in your system, and that is a low inductance, high current ground with an array of ground rods.
In a lightning strike the currents are massive and instantaneous. The behavior of the ground conductor in such a rapid rise in current is to behave primarily as an inductor reacting to a high frequency. That means a high impedance. With a high impedance to the strike current, that current will find another path, as in everything you seek to protect. To solve this you need more than the round copper wire to a ground rod.
What you need is a broad copper strap, with is low inductance and very high conductivity be it at DC, low frequency AC or the high frequency of a lightning strike. The strap is bonded at the metal mounting plate of the power entry point. Exiting the building it goes to a ground rod, but not just one. The strap continues below grade as far as you can afford to pay for the copper. The idea is to give the lightning current a low inductance path away into soil where it can be dissipated.
When lighting current enters a ground rod it will charge the soil around it very quickly. As this happens the charge accumulating in the soil is impeding more charge entering the same rod, and flowing outward. In other words, the volume of earth that can be charged immediately is finite so far as the purpose of lightning protection is concerned. That charged area is, in an ideal case, cylindrical with the radius being equal to the length of the ground rod. In very good conductivity soils, that means the dissipation area for an 8 foot rod is a 16 foot diameter cylinder 8 feet deep. This varies greatly with soil conductivity, rarely is the ideal case realized. To prevent the charged areas interfering with each other the ideal case has the 8 foot ground rods spaced 16 feet apart.
In one installation we ran 100 feet of 4 inch wide copper strap. (rolls of copper strap as narrow as 1.5 inches are sold for this application). Few ground rods could be longer than 4 feet due to hard rock. In each rod location we had to calculate a spacing for the next rod, it was a bit of hit and miss working that out. Had to pull some up out of the ground and move them closer to the prior one a few times.
What you end up with is a dissipation field that can accept extremely high currents of near instantaneous rise time. Allowing all those unwanted electrons to flow away from the structure.
Obviously there is much to this than the grounding system. There are multiple types of protective devices on the market. Possibly you have bought some but the wire leads on them leave me wondering how well they would survive or function under real strike conditions. Whatever devices you install to shunt surge currents into your ground, keep wires as short as possible, as in no loops and no remote mounting. The ideal is where the grounding surface of the shunt device has no wire, because it screws directly onto a copper plate. The plate to which the copper strap of the grounding system is bonded.
I do not mean to promote any one company. Just as an example, this is the one where most of the hardware was purchased for the last system I was involved in. One last caveat, prices when I did this work were much cheaper, copper has risen a lot in the near three decades since.
www.polyphaser.com/search?Category=Grounding&sort=y&view_type=grid
Good luck to you!
The chances of an EMP is very small. The chance of an EMP protection working is also small.
I think installing for lightning protection makes sense. If there is an EMP event, at least there's a chance of being protected.
@@ProjectsWithDave Not if you understand what happens should someone actually set off a high altitude bomb with that intent. The E series of events (look it up, not hard to find) will see all these MOV based devices failed well before the series is over. Your sensitive devices will be fried. Protection from an EMP attack is a lot more than a box of MOVs.
Proper lightning protection requires decent effort too.
Intro was about 5 minutes too long. It could have been dropped and still been well over the magic 10 minutes.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm constantly looking for the best balance between information and action. It did seem a little long after I put it together, but I was having so much fun researching the topic that's where it landed. : )
It's fine. I was being a bit douchey. Sorry :)@@ProjectsWithDave
No worries, I'm always looking for candid feedback. Thanks!
Question 🙋♂️ what happened after you payed all this money on an EMP protected device and a EMP hit. Your stuff is damaged because it didn’t work. Who are you going to call to complain 🤔
If that is a concern for you, there are other lower-cost brands that don't include a warranty you may want to consider such as this one: amzn.to/3Psk9h6
@@ProjectsWithDave A Warranty? Listen to what you just said. A warranty on something that’s supposed to work when an EMP hits. Omg🤦♂️ who are you calling for your warranty after an EMP attack?
Wow! Just wow! You really think they will be open for business after an EMP to answer your calls. OMG 🤦♂️
You better not be holding your breath.
I guess I’m one of those one and 15,000 people because I have been struck by lightning and woke up in the hospital
Wow! God must not be done with you yet : )
Also, people really shouldn't be worried about EMPs because there's be OTHER THINGS to worry about if that were to come to pass. Like global nuclear war.
Yes, I think investing in some Potassium Iodide pills would be a better first step in that case: amzn.to/450JXq9
Emp stuff is a scam
*Ufer Grounding!!!*
photovoltaic / solar thermal technician
i saw Tiny Shiny Home video first and posted my whole comment 👍
regarding your dealing with lightning Dad joke time... is that why your hair is white?
*cerveza for you* 🍺