When A Narcissist Insists You Should Forgive, Should You?
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Narcissists will generate pain in you, then when you respond with emotion, they pour salt in the wound by saying you are problematic because you won't forgive them. They want you to let them off the hook, even as they deny the chaos they bring. Dr. Les Carter addresses ways to manage this major form of gaslighting.
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Dr. Les Carter is a best selling author and therapist who has semi-retired to Waco, TX. For 40+ years he maintained a counseling practice in Dallas, conducting more than 65,000 therapy sessions and many workshops and seminars. He specializes in anger management and narcissistic personality disorder. Since creating his UA-cam channel, his videos have received more than 110 million views.
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They equate “forgiveness” as a free pass for what they did. That’s not how that works.
Agree. To me, "forgiveness" means I'm not plotting revenge. If I'm not arranging your punishment, that's forgiveness. That's as good as it gets.
Narcissist want you to think you're the abuser by not forgiving them as they try to abuse you.
Yup. They want you to forgive without them learning about anything and changing their ways.
They have no plans to be calm and happy.
Narcissists are angry people and arguments and fights are oxygen to them. They need it everyday.
They feel powerful when they argue.
That's exactly right! My husband says he deserves a "clean slate", but has admitted 1,000 times that he would Never Forgive ME if I cheated, yet he has cheated for Years! He's become a professional at punishing me Every time I catch him in another lie.
Forgiveness is a choice. And forgiveness can be done privately. We are not obligated to have a relationship with anyone.
Narcissists aren't asking for forgiveness anyways. If a narcissist asked for forgiveness it would be a treacherous scheme to get you back into position to be abused. Don't be the narcissist's punching bag anymore.
It's God's will for us to forgive those who trespass against us. It doesn't mean we have to have them in our life. My twin is a severe narcissist. I forgive her but I have no contact with her
@@ellensears The apostle Paul taught that if a person says they're a Christian and goes around abusing people that you're supposed to cut that person out of your life. Jesus Christ hated hypocrisy. Hypocrisy was one of the chief sins of the Pharisees. Narcissists are the ultimate hypocrites.
@@ellensears I have a similar situation with an older sibling. I'm not going to be a punching bag anymore. I don't hate anybody. I have no obligation to stay in touch with an abusive person. I told this person that I'm not at disposal and suggested he/she get in touch with health professionals.
These same narcissists NEVER forgive anyone who offends them.
Amen to that. They get over precisely nothing.
In return, I stopped forgiving the narcissist. Now they say, geez you are so quiet. Geez, you don’t act like yourself. It’s because I am protecting myself. I may have to be with them but I don’t have to forgive them. I tolerate them on my terms. I felt extremely selfish when I removed myself from the “friendship” and has now moved to “acquaintance”. It’s a family member so removal has not presented itself due to family politics.
@@SlobArt In my case, it's also a family member. She keeps digging in the past. OMG. Once she was mad about me reading her diary. That was 45 years ago! My mom and I apparently had opened it and read something out loud. That was crappy. But know what, I remembered that she had more than once read my diary, drawn pictures and added her "comments" on several pages prior to this scene. So I guess my mom wanted to give my sibling a taste of her own medicine.
@@dorisblaubucht4438 this channel is great to make you realize you are alone.
True.
What is worse than that is someone else who doesn’t know what they’re talking about when they tell us that we have to forgive the narcissist but they could never walk a mile in my shoes & survive
Oh yes, that is infuriating. "But she's your mother. You need to forgive her." I've cut all those enabling flying monkeys out of my life too.
Yes& YES! The 2 Cousins who s$xual Abused me both say- repeatedly, YOU CALL YOUR SELF A Christian Carol??"
I have gone through it several times and also have forgiven. Forgiveness is important for our own mental, emotional, and physical health. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM BACK OUR ENERGY AND TIME...NO, NO, NO. So I agree that we have to forgive... My heart remains peaceful, loving, and kind...because I forgave all of my offenders and love them from a distance with strict bounderies
So true !!!!!!
Same here,I'm sorry u are going through it,I can relate sadly. Narcissistic husband twist and lies about everything then trys to turn our daughter and grandson against me.
Toxic people will try to tell you that you're holding a grudge...Nah, that's a boundary.
🎯
Yes, exactly!
Forgiving a narcissist, just gives them permission to do it again.
Exactly!
Not if you do it from a distance....
Its like falling for a sign that says "come out to the woods for $1,000,000 dollars" when you know its probably some psycho waiting to kidnap you.
Yes!
True.
This seems to continue the cycle of mistreatment. You forgive, they act wonderful then turn into a cluster bomb and hurt you again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Exactly!
Forgive (to FREE not to CHEAT yourself), don't FORGET. Ever. Forgive them, alone in your own private chamber, don't tell anybody, don't EVER express this forgiveness to THEM. Keep up a strict no-contact rule. They will just read forgiveness as an invitation to do it all again. But before you forgive, they still live rent-free in your head. Time to evict them. 😉 For forever.
I live that vicious cycle for 29 years
@@tobbiehaynes8380 I feel you. And do you plan to ever jump off of that not-so-merry-go-round? This is the only relevant question, really. 😉 The world outside of it is much more beautiful than you might think while still lost in rotation.
@@tobbiehaynes8380same here. This is the last year for me.
"'That was in the past". Yeah, but the past is still affecting me NOW.
That's so true. They don't understand that, because they are masters of "forgetting" what they've done. A narcissist's prayer: I didn't do it. But if I did, you deserved it.
It accumulates, I'm just concentrating on me now, staying strong, setting boundaries in order to have peace in my life 🕊️❤️🕊️
It's hard to realise later that the narcissist was hollow, heartless & faking whilst you were being authentic & loving 🙏
I was authentic & loving and kept trying to be better with every criticism. I did my very best for 10 years. He didn't last 6 months with me still doing everything like normal but not inviting at bedtime before he was ready for divorce
Withholding any care & love from you was cruel, sending ❤❤❤
😢😭
These DEMONS could care less what damage they do to the CHILDREN!!
The immortal words of Tupac..."I still want you to eat, just not at my table."
Yas! 💯
He was a poet.
Exactly! So well said...
Demanding forgiveness is akin to abuse. Asking for forgiveness is something else, entirely. I can forgive someone, from a distance. Forgiveness is for me, not them.
So spot on, Aaron.
Love this, Aaron!!!
@@AlwaysStampinVideos I saw your recent comment on another stream, where you noted the vague, sweeping “forgiveness” of a N toward you. I didn’t reply, but I’m still chewing on it. I don’t WANT to be forgiven if I’ll not be treated as if I were. I’ve received those, too, but when the behavior/attitude toward me doesn’t change, I don’t believe it. Just words.
Yes! Show me, don't tell me! Words from a narc are dust in the wind@@aaronkwolfe
@@BaraSchmidt Yes, showing me PROVES the words. Or replaces. I'm okay with either. But words never replace actions.
The narcissist wants you to forgive but the narcissist will never do the same thing - hypocrites
As children raised by narcissist, we had our true identity stolen from us on day one. We have no idea who we truly are because we've spent the first half of our lives in agony and we'll spend the second half trying to undo the damage. We literally had are individuality taken away, stripped down to nothing but a supply, never having a chance to become who we truly are or even know what we're like outside of being survivors. We lost more than happiness, we lost our true selves.
I ran across a comment that read " if the devil can't get to you, he'll send a narcissist" this would not apply to anyone raised by narcissist. If anything the devil ( not a firm believer of its existence ) simply sent a narcissist their supply, and the supply is you!
But you'll get there, and what joy there will be in it.
Yes forgive BUT don’t reconcile because a narcissist NEVER CHANGES
Forgiveness and reconciliation are different things
One can never reconcile with a narcissist because the narcissist never wants to reconcile because that means the narcissist loses their power dominance superiority and control
Great point!
Well said.
Since I left the Narcissist behind and never looked back nearly 3 years ago, several people have asked me if I forgive her (and her flying monkey enablers.) I tell them calmly and firmly, "No. I don't forgive them and I won't forget. There are some non-negotiables in life. I don't wish anything terrible for them, but I don't want to have ANYTHING to do with them." No one has ever argued or disagreed with that. They change the subject, and we continue to have a nice conversation.
I have told friends over the years, that for me, it is IMPOSSIBLE to forgive someone for doing horrible things that are STILL AFFECTING my life right now. And some things can never be fixed.
@amandainsa1048 great response! polite but firm in your convictions.
-cheers, steven
@@henrykujawa4427Yes! the effects of s. abuse are 50 decades... the perpetraters got no right to demand ANY THING from you &/ or ME.
In my opinion, in this post, *you clearly state what forgiveness is* .
In other words, you have already forgiven your narcissists. Truly.
It's what dr C says in the last part of this video... When he says something like "you can call it what you want" (but it is forgiveness).
My point is, people today define the term "forgiveness" as if it were,
1) you have to stay in the relationship with your abusers
2) you have to feel something like "ok, I have forget everything and I'm soooooo happy when I think of my ex-abusers because, you see, after all, they are my good family / husband / wife", etc.
Actually, I don't know from where this definition come... Because even Christianity doesn't ask you to do such things.
As I said in other comments... (For believers in God) There is Only One, with His great Mercy, who can *forgive and forget* - if a person truly repents. It is said in the Bible too that... He wants to forget, that's to say He wants to delete 100% the sin, if the sinner shows true repentance (= repentance + change life + follow Him).
Thank you for accepting reading this comment of mine. It was meant to express my appreciation for your attitude... Because you have truly forgiven much better than what most people do.
To forgive and to forget are to DIFFERENT things.
Absolutely not. They are just going to do the same thing to you again.
How can you forgive if your still being abused? You must leave or choose radical acceptance and let bygones be bygones.
Being forgiving does not mean being subservient to abuse, you will be enabling them to sin ,do wrong.
The family Narc reached out to my husband and “truly and sincerely apologized for the pain that they caused us both”. My husband said that he appreciated the apology but that he needed to know/ understand the feelings and reasons behind the actions that caused pain in order to move forward. The narc immediately went into blame shifting and gaslighting. “You both have just as much to answer for”, “this is not how you have a healthy relationship”, “I am not going to be a guilty party in-front of a judge”.
So much for the true and sincere apology for the pain you caused.
Forgiving them only makes them know you have no backbone. You'll be the perfect supply for them.
I agree. Let's say, my narcissist's credit line has been exceeded. This ATM it closed.
Forgiving a narcissist is feeding the monster
Don't forget who these people really are! Knowledge is power. Keep yourself safe. Narcissistic relationships aren't safe.
They expect you to forgive them for things they’re still doing
Forgiveness without repentance (to turn away from wrongdoing, not to cry crocodile tears) is mere tolerance.
To tolerate is to invite further wrong; it makes you guilty of supporting other's bad behavior.
Jesus teaches repentance for this reason.
Expect to be disappointed by them, and you won't be!🙄🤣
Well stated.
"When A Narcissist Insists You Should Forgive, Should You?"
Yes, you should forgive YOURSELF. As for the narcissist, they can go [bleep].
No. I'll never forgive. Because if I do, that just gives them permission to do it again.
Some people's actions are just beyond forgiveness.
They want forgiveness yet THEY hold grudges 🙄 they also want forgiveness without them having to change their behavior, even if they say they are going to change; which they usually won’t even say they’ll change because they usually don’t think their behavior is problematic. It’s usually best to forgive them for US, but forgiving them because they want it should not be the intention.
Never forget! Forget never! Forgiveness is for ourselves!
Yeah, i can never get my head around it. 'Forgiveness is for ourselves' in the film Filomena with Judy Dench she said it so clearly .....and now i can't remember the quote...annoying.
I agree 👍❤❤❤
Theyre masters at shifting the blame ....
Absolutely.
before forgiving….just remember they tried to get away with it. Forgive? For yourself….but don’t forget.
It's a huge "NO" from me in regard to certain people and criminal matters! I also strongly believe that forgiving isn't necessary for healing and it doesn't mean that survivors will stay angry either. ❤
You haven't met forgiveness yet then.. but it goes in wave of more feeling bad for them they are stuck...and pray they get well... But decline any time more then nessesary
it surely doesn't, forgiveness is for those who you want to keep in your life, forget em and move on
@@jennetteoverzet2959 yes, I think we equate forgiveness with restoration, it's not. As another Dr has said, forgiveness is free, trust is earned. My ex would demand forgiveness, but he had no desire to change. An addict may insist that you forgive and return, but that would only be enabling and not in the best interests of any involved.
@@mapleleaf1185 What if the narcissist is your CHILD - alienated by malignant narcissist daddy - who is now a malignant narcissist herself? I'll wait
I feel that forgiving the narc is so I can move on with my life. I can keep the narc no contact forever. The narc doesn't even have to know that I forgave it. It's something nice I do for myself so I can finally let go & move on with my life & take time for me instead of waste time & mindspace on the narc 🙏 ❤
My sister would always say “be the better person” whenever conflicts arose. She said this in the face of blatant abusive behaviors from our family members. They continued to walk all over her, I decided to just walk away from that family and focus on my own. Going on five years, it has been lonely at times, but I don’t regret being the healthier person I am now.
I always find it to be a red flag when someone is demanding that you accept what they are doing or that you accept their apology. What it usually says to me is that they don't respect you or your boundaries
and expect a resolution out of inconvenience. Which also indicates that they don't really understand what they did at all. They just want you to get over it. Now, making peace with something that somebody toxic did to you, doesn't even require them. It's more about you and making sense of what happened.
This is exactly what happened to me, just two days ago. We should "discuss". Oh no. For that, I'd have to go back and show her "best bits" of rage and insults. I can't go back and look at the "evidence", I don't want recap unpleasant situations.
I told her that earlier discussions and correspondence never led to anything. I won't be at her disposal and she should contact a therapist. This is, by the way, what her children have asked her to do but she's always refused.
Sometimes when I watch these.. I weep out of gratitude that I finally discovered what was wrong in my life..
Thank you so much.
❤️
Boy, this has happened to me over and over again with my sister. She easily berates and insults, but then demands I need to forgive her (because I'm a Christian) and then forget.
I've told her I have forgiven her, but will no longer let an abuser abuse. So sorry, but burned bridges don't always need to be rebuilt.
Wow. I have a similar situation. She has at times apologized. How?
"Oh, I was so stressed out. Oh, I was on medication. Oh....don't know what...."
Insults, blame, even name-calling and aggressive behavior.
Just two days ago I reconfirmed that no, I don't want to be in touch with her. In no form. The only exception is urgent family matters.
"Oh, we should talk about things, I'd like to know why you feel hurt". NO.
I told her to get in touch with a mental health professional. Something her kids had suggested years ago. One of her children revealed a while back what went down at home. I had no idea for decades....
@@dorisblaubucht4438 She probably won't seek help, after all you're the problem in her mind. ❤️
@@Rosielee123 I know, I don't think she will seek help. She thinks that if we "talk about things" I will believe her BS explanations and accept her fake apology. What would change after that? Nothing.
This morning I thought that what I should forgive is forgiving myself for not having put up boundaries a lot earlier. Sounds selfish? Yes. Do I need that? Yes.
How long ago did you cut ties with your sister?
@@dorisblaubucht4438 I haven't completely... Just gone very little contact & minimum family get togethers 😉 set boundaries 👍
telling you to apologize for what ? they interrupted me in mid conversation and starting throwing bombs of accusations totally unrelated to the conversation ; to humiliate , embarrass and put me on the spot . I have nothing to apologize for in that case ; these people have brain damage imo.
I cannot begin to tell you doc that every word I hear from you it’s like some one in this whole wide world finally has read and understood my life story of the 20 years of married to this narcissist, I knew something was very wrong with this man but didn’t know what was . When I shared his actions with his or my family no single person would believe that he behaves very differently with me than how he behaved with the other people in the family , I cannot tell you enough how happy I am to hear everything that has happened to me that you are able to put in words when I listen to your videos it’s like the chapters of my life has come alive because they were buried in time and I used to feel so sad that I can’t explain to family because they don’t understand and on top of that my narcissistic husband had poisoned every one’s mind towards me and cut me off from my church and church friends and for years I’ve lived a lonely life with family without friends but in these tough times God has been my refuge and Holy Spirit has gently guided me through all these roughest years and showed me your videos now and I’m learning how to respond to his different behaviors now because like you said I’m not gonna let him write my life’s last chapters now and I’ll take the loss and move on and will not let bitterness make me hold the grudge because the reality is that I’m married to a broken personality that has ruined our lives from mine to our both beautiful children are ruined by his own hands every thing is broken 😢because of him and he’s always said it’s because of me because our relationship didn’t align according to him so I’m responsible for all the wrong he has done to me and the children. This narcissist husband would walk around with the Bible and had highlighted it in The Bible that God said women need to be submissive to their husbands so he said in context of that I’m not allowed to Say my opinion or if I’m told something by him I’m supposed to carry out his orders despite of if I like it or not. So he’s used Bible against me to prove that he is authoritative and I had no say in anything. He was always against me as a believer of Jesus Christ and then he used Gods word to prove his authority even though the Bible has never said to the woman to be submissive in this context as he made it up to suit his ego
When people approach spiritual matters with an authoritarian mindset, they've completely missed the point.
Nobody should be forced to do anything. Abuse is not to be dismissed. It’s very serious and some of us just never fully recover. We must focus on our healing and have nothing to do with abisive narcisists.
Three years have gone by since I started to go no contact with my elderly narcisist mother. She still to this day refuses to aknowledge, appologize, or even admit mistakes have been made. She still blames others and tells the same exagerated stories (gas lighting) like a broken record. And every few weeks she text me wondering why I can't just get over it and move on. It is just mind blowing how a covert narcisist will never admit they are in the wrong even to a skilled therapist. It's always someones elses fault and they will never change. Thank you for these eye opening videos.
Amen!
Broken world. Broken people. Stay safe! Don't hold on to or play with poison.
I may forgive, but I never forget and I permanently evict that person from my life.
Wow always timely. Have not spoken to her in 4 years got a text how I need to forgive, forget, and start serving her again. Immediately. Not even a Hello. And because of you, Dr.C. I feel nothing, no shame ,no guilt, no cowering most importantly I feel no need to respond.
@MissPril, Don't engage. She can't do anything about that. No shame or guilt!
Stay strong!
I've been in this situation. I have forgiven many times, but unfortunately, you can't forget! In my opinion, you can't demand forgiveness. It has to be earned. And it depends on the wrongdoing.
If it gets to a point where the wrongdoing is constant and lessons haven't been learned, then how can you forgive.
Often, there is the accusation that you're bearing a grudge or carrying on an argument. But one wrongdoing from you and you are reminded forever!!!
I hear you, Amanda❣
With Narcissists forgiveness feels like "pearls before swine" because they will go on and on and on.
I totally agree with you that you can not demand forgiveness from anybody.
But forgiveness is in the first instance not for the other person but for yourself, for your own sake, for your own health because it is letting go so that you can move forward and not feeling stuck. And forgiving somebody does not mean to forget what the other person did - and this is what can make it very difficult.
And Narcissists cannot forgive because in their eyes the world is bad - so they need to accuse you for everything.
Repentance with no change is meaningless. “I’m sorry I got caught.”
@roxymovie3938 I agree. Forgiveness can be for our own sake for a healthy future. Also not wanting revenge and not wanting harm to come to them like a delicate detachment. Thanks Roxy. Take care 🙏💕
@@aaronkwolfe Absolutely 👍
@@amandaliverpool3374 Thank you for your response(s) (also from yesterday) 💞 "Delicate detachment" Dr Carter said frequently. Yes, wishing no harm to others and not holding grudges is essential for a happy and healthy life. 🙏💛🙏
...
P.S.: By the way, since February I am living on my own (with our cat though) because my daughter moved out. This is a total new experience of living after 22,5 years: new space, new freedom, new peace 😊
The words & actions of a narcissist never match up, so just because you may forgive them, doesn’t mean they’re going to stop their behavior. Mine wanted forgiveness, even though he never confessed anything to me. Talk about arrogance!
Had a former narcissitic friend. She hid it well. My telling her that I forgave her, was just as sincere as her fake apology.
I bent over backwards helping that woman out.
You learn who your friends are, when they no longer need your help.
In my personal experience I have found that Narcissists really enjoy causing pain to others. They love generating pain and seeing it hurt others. Very cruel but covered up with a sweet demeanor which hides their evil intent.
Perfect photo of most narcissists.
The rest of them causes pain because they don't care about anyone except themeselves. So, they do whatever they like without evaluating the evident probable destructive consequences on other people
Hi, thank you for this great video again
I m also so happy to see Gus!
is he feeling better?❤
Dont supress anger towards narcisist. You just use that angered as fuel for achieving things. Use it. When they gonnago see you succeed. It will hit them hard.
I've been separated from my narcissistic husband for 10 years and have forgiven many times, but I won't forgive or forget what happened before I left; Once somebody uses physical violence, you cannot forgive or forget.
Forgiveness is done for the wellness of oneself
My grandfather used to say:
" Forgive, but don't forget, it's wise to forgive, foolish to forget".
It ended on an Anonymous Facebook page, so freaky, I'll never forget that. Thanks Dr. Carter , for reminding me of who I am ❤
We have to feel guilty for their disrespect and pure evil 😢
Go figure!
Forgiveness is possible when all parties agree about the insult. If someone would just as soon have you not know the full extent of their intentions against you, what then do you forgive?
Your video today was as if you were talking to me personally. It is what i am going through right now. Thank you for this conversation. I can't let him tell me to forget everything that he has done and just move on. He claims he has cured himself of his narcissism and alcoholism. Thank you so much.
My (ex) narcissist insisted I needed to forgive him because it wasnt like I was perfect either and I needed to get over it.
I laughed. I told him I was fine with not forgiving him, and even more fine with my lack of personal perfection.
Forgiveness was a pop psychology trend for a while, supposedly a short cut to doing the hard work of undoing the damage done to one. Supposedly if you simply claim “I forgive them” you’ll be magically “cured” of years of trauma and the consequences of that trauma. A bad therapist once insisted I forgive my family. The rest of the group was claiming they forgave their abusive families and I was inconveniencing everyone by not claiming I did as well. It can be a very sanctimonious way of shutting someone up from ever talking about the things that need to be talked about.
You ever see that Scooby Doo movie with Sarah Michelle Gellar back in year 2002? In one scene Scooby Doo gets ambushed with signs that say "Come out to the woods for free burgers". Basically that's what the narcissist is doing but instead the sign says "Come out to the woods to forgive" where the ambush awaits you. Total manipulative guilt trip tactic to hoover you in and abuse again.
When I struggled to forgive, I concluded that I didn’t understand forgiveness. Then a friend said I did understand forgiveness but was applying it like I was dealing with a normal person. In a normal relationship the steps I was taking would work beautifully. I’m not working with a normal person in a normal relationship.
When they say they take responsibility for their abusive actions they are literally just saying those words. They don’t understand that they need to change and they aren’t willing to change. A narcissist doesn’t believe they really did anything wrong and/or it wasn’t their fault. They were pushed to do xyz because of someone or something. You can’t change if you think you have no faults.
When someone asks you to forgive them for their actions towards you only to realize later in life they never actually felt they did anything wrong. That will set you back for sure in the trust and forgiveness area of life.
Edit: This is explaining my ex wife through and through. It’s definitely painful to watch this today.
Edit 2: Thank You
OMG! My sister said to me “you need to forgive me for the past fifty years and here is a ‘I’m sorry’ for the next 50.
When it comes to the Biblical construct of forgiveness - it is important to understand that narcissists WILL use the aforementioned to whip their victims into compliance with their despicable nature. This is because it is all about controlling their victims and nothing to do with actual forgiveness. The point being is yes - you do have to forgive the narc - but not in the manner that they want you to forgive them. Which it’s more of a case of the narc wanting an easy way to continue their abuse upon you - with your consent because you forgave them. Furthermore, if you do forgive the narc as they want you to forgive them - you are opening the door to all types of issues including being disobedient to God. It’s not easy - but if you’re willing to allow God to help you with what the narc has done to you - and particularly forgiving them - God - by his sovereign nature will help you.
Finally, any type of behavior wherein constructs brought about by what Christ did for humanity are used as tools for the purpose of manipulation is nothing more than abuse. As such - non compliance with this type of abusive behavior is not sin before God.
Excellent video Dr Carter 🙌❤️ to me, true forgiveness is giving up my right to hurt you back! I remind myself that they may not deserve my forgiveness, however I deserve PEACE. And something I never knew is, ... forgiveness is NOT trust. It's like I wish you the best, I have no ill feelings towards you, .. JUST STAY AWAY FROM ME. Period. 🕊️✝️🙏
One thing is the narcissists pencil has no eraser....
Yes. That's so true. They don't forget anything anyone else has said or done. On the other hand, they are masters of forgetting what they've done.
They make no mistakes that need erased.
@@danemartin5674 Oh, now I get it. You're right. They have never done anything wrong. OMG.
When I think of my narcissist's picture of herself. The warm-hearted person who always thinks and does what's best for everybody. It's just incredible how two-faced these people are.
A couple months ago I had a conversation with my old man about all the trauma and bad stuff that went on in my life -- that he enabled because he didn't want to deal with my mother breathing her fire on him. (It was okay for her to do it to the CHILDREN, just not him, the adult.) He told me straight up, no hesitation "That's in the past." This was a moment for me that felt SO GOOD to tell him that he brings up stuff that happened with my mother before I was born, more than 40 years ago, and he doesn't get to brush it off like it's not important.
I stopped him at his own tricks, and well, he didn't like it, but he did grudgingly let me continue.
When I told my mother about the pain and hurt she caused, she screamed at me "I'M HURT TOO!" but I didn't cause that hurt. That hurt and trauma happened to her sixty years ago, and she had sixty years to deal with it. When my old man abandoned us, she had twenty years to recover. She chose not to. My parents still bear such huge wounds from their trauma and their issues with each other that I laugh when they tell me I have to forgive them. When they aren't sorry. When they didn't try. When they let their hurt consume them and then took it out on innocent children.
Oddly enough, I've heard "I'm sorry!" more in the last few months than I have in my entire life, but I know they don't mean it and I haven't seen any behaviors change. It really is like dealing with children. Shows how stupid they think I am.
I forgive myself. I didn't matter to them, so I can't make them matter to me now that I see and understand the truth. I'm in therapy. I'm doing the hard work to GET OVER IT as my mother always used to scream when I'd go to her upset. They're on their own, just like I was. I'm not holding on to this pain because I see how doing it ruined their lives and estranged them from their children and other family members. They chose this. No contact can't come soon enough.
Thanks, Dr. C!
The common narrative throughout society is to forgive, which seeks to minimise the victims and essentially deny the torture of the abuse. It's gaslighting, and it's what the abusers push for. Yet the abusers don't make any moves to earn forgiveness.
Some things are simply unforgivable. I'll never forgive my abusers for destroying my life with torture. It's also not relevant; they don't need forgiveness to stop being abusive and work to change their behaviours.
Forgiveness isn't the focus, the destruction from torture is. Glad you're taking on all facets of Narcissism Dr. Carter. Thank you :)
Thank you so much Dr.C and Gus and Team Healthy ❤️
The ONLY thing I can NOT FORGIVE is the damage done to the children!! These demons destroy lives especially the children. If they have such little consideration for their wives just think about what it does to the children!!
I love that statement! "They don't need forgiveness to stop being abusive and work to change their behaviors."
When i said i wasnt going to allow my narcissist relative to closed-fist punch my daughter, she tried claiming i was keeping her from her and that all i cared about is revenge, and that if i was really a good person i would "forgive" her (and allow her to hit my daughter inappropriately for inappropriate reasons to discipline at all in the first place, such as praying 'wrong')
There is a 🌎 WORLD 🌍 of difference between accountability and revenge.
Not allowing you to continue your abuse is not revenge, it's accountability. Protection isn't revenge. Only a wolf would see a fence protecting cattle as a bad thing.
They feel entitled to your forgiveness - so when they don't receive it, they get angry and try to intimidate you by yelling and calling you judgemental...they are bullies who were bullied and who refuse to see the truth about themselves. Watching these videos keep me validated and encourage me to accept the truth about the narcissistic people in my life and move towards removing them from my inner circle - peace and freedom is in working progress until that day when they are out of my circle.
Someone finally explained forgiveness to me in a way that I can embrace…. I forgive not because the narcissist deserves forgiveness but because I deserve peace.
Forgive but don't let them back to cause drama
Of course they say you have to forgive them immediately. Because they fail to recognize they have caused deep pain to anyone.
Sign of low empathy.
Even with forgiveness, narcissist dictate what we normal people should feel.
Why do we have to follow that crap?
Forgiveness benefits YOU so you can move on. It doesn't mean you have to reconnect with a narcissist. Not forgiving is like taking poison and expecting the other person to die. Let it go and move on with your life.
Forgive but not forget. 😂 “Fooled me once….”
"Drop the illusion that you can fix the narcissists wrongdoing.". I'm going to post that everywhere. Just to remind myself. I'm having to remove one from my home, who has all evidences of being helpless. A terrible disastrous slob, sick, on and on. I cannot fix or rescue him. Nor have I a legitimate reason for trying--except for the thorough training by narc parents, that I MUST do so. He is responsible for himself, and has all the abilities that we each have, to do so. Forgive? How about I also try not accepting this phony " burden.". Thanks Dr. C
Even worse, I was told I didn't deserve an apology because I was 100% in the wrong and the only one who should be apologizing was me!
Same experience with my ex!
My covert narc mom is no longer speaking to me because she kept making jokes at my dead dad's expense even after I asked her to stop. Somehow me wanter her to stop made me a bully.
She wrote a letter telling me I need to forget the past but within a sentence said she didn't trust me enough to talk to me yet. So I need to forget the past but she is can cling onto it to punish me.......
Super thankful for videos like this so I can see this kind of thing now!
In a similar show of WTF? my old man was being abusive and nasty to me, and I decided to limit my contact with him because I didn't deserve all this crap he was throwing at me. I never did deserve it. I was a good kid doing my best without any help or guidance from him (because he didn't care) or my mother (because she couldn't work through her own trauma). I had no idea why he was being so awful because I hadn't done anything directly to him other than being born.
Because I set a boundary with him that I didn't want to be mistreated anymore, he told me that he took me out of his will. Granted, I knew there wasn't going to be much left to me, so I wasn't that surprised. Financial abuse has always been his go-to after the neglect. So I guess I'm out $5,000 measly dollars, but my dignity and self respect is worth far more to me than someone thinking that manipulation is going to bring me in line.
Me wanting my father to stop abusing me was ME BEING THE BULLY and so, in true narcissistic fashion, he had to get back at me somehow. When you see it, you can't unsee it.
Best of luck to you as you heal and take your life back.
Stay away but forgive yourself for ignorance of narcissistic behavior ❤
Thanks so much, Dr Carter! Listened on the way home from the store. This one really moved me. Thank you! Freedom doesn’t always feel like freedom- that is, until I hear “don’t you dare” from an encouraging voice such as yours instead of one of the n’s in my life. You and your guidance mean the world to me!
I continue to be so pleased for you, Kelly!
Haha… yup. They expect you to forgive them. They use Bible verses to shame you to forgive them. However, in my heart, I forgive them and set them free but I will not have anything to do with them anymore.
This is reminiscent to a person who proved to be very different to a highly reputable individual. Honesty, trust, respect and integrity should have been the primary focus but unfortunately ended in failure. Thanks and appreciate your continued support. ❤
Believers that consequences do not apply to them, better think again.
Usually they cant even give a proper apology and they just want you to submit. I had one being very pushy. I just said, "I think we're at an impasse. If and when I get over it, it'll be on my timeline, not yours. Stop pushing me."
They're uncomfortable not being in control.
I grew up with a narc parent. I got sober because that's how I coped with the effects abuse once I became a teenager. Then I dove into support groups for CPTSD and trauma. I told my story, to a safe enough other person, I got heard, empathized with, believed, maybe for the first time. I learnt to be more self compassionate, and I learnt to start having boundaries, that keep my inner child and true self safe, I learnt to advocate for my needs, and find available relationships where I can meet my needs for connection and share my true self. Im my own loving parent today, and defend my boundaries and freedom, because theyre very important, To keep my inner child / authentic self safe, to dream, have hope and express himself through me as my authentic self. Honesty is good and clarity expressing yourself , and not stuffing anything, we deserve to be free and keep healing and have the nurturing reciprocal relationships that all humans long for.. Were worth it. God speed . With gentleness humor love and respect!💚💚💚
Dr C said: "These are very common things (he heard in his practice...)" - Thank goodness we have access to knowledge, and the opportunity to support others on similar journeys. These things, along with a strong sense of self have helped me to leave the toxicity where it belongs! At the curb!
Thank you Dr C!
I have tried to forgive the narcissistic people in my life who for the last 10 years have subjected me to the most horrific experiences. During that time I have prayed and attempted to re-establish the relationships, stifling the emotional pain that is buried in my memory of their collective actions. Each and every time that I have unconditionally forgiven them, without any remorse or apology on their part, they have taken advantage of my generosity, stepped all over my boundaries and invalidated me through gaslighting all over again. Forgiving these people who are not sorry causes trauma bonds that are unhealthy. We should forgive people, freeing ourselves from resentment and revengeful thoughts. But, forgiveness cannot equate to reconciliation, no matter how many times the narcissists shame you into it. The Serenity prayer teaches us to change the things we can, and, accept the things we cannot and the wisdom to know the difference. Some dysfunctions should be handed over to God and let Him deal with it. Then we can forgive and find new ways to meet new people who respect and love us just as we are. Life is short. Don't waste another minute on people who are manipulating you into thinking their hatred for you is love. Love yourself enough to want your autonomy!
Forgiving someone is giving up the "right" to retaliate. I forgave my ex-husband years ago. He does not, however, have access to me. And he doesn't know if or when I forgave him. If he knew I had forgiven him, he would think I "owe" him another chance. HE burned that bridge. I will not rebuild it.
@@wandagreer2551
I agree. Whether we forgive someone or not is between us and God. I am Christian and believe only He judges. I choose to forgive so I do not let those people poison me anymore but I cannot forget the pain they've caused or the lack of remorse they've shown me. I want my freedom back from these manipulators.
I want to thank you personally for this video. I needed to here this.
After I quit couples therapy with the ex - he continued to see the couples therapist. He came home from a session - he was insistent that the counselor believed that I didn't have forgiveness in my heart for him. He was a master triangulator and gaslighter. He was so focused on me forgiving him for his bad behavior, gaslighting, and neglect. Bang head here. This video really helped Dr. C.
Consider the source, then keep leaning forward!
What, exactly, am I forgiving you for?
Forgiving a narcissist.
I went on a self search years ago trying to find out what I thought forgiving someone felt like. After all, you can say the words but there’s no green light nor a receipt proving the transaction is complete. I read all I could including the Bible which is quite explicit about forgiveness.
I went to a pastor who knew about my situation and I asked her how do I forgive this?
Due to an event in her background which caused her to ask my same question years past.
She told me that her concept of forgiving someone who has done the unforgivable is this…
Forgiveness is like peeling back onion skins. You forgive. Time passes and the event again surfaces, you forgive. Another layer of onion skin is peeled back. This episodic forgiveness may be a way to cope.
When you have burst of attention from your narcissist, how surprisingly narcissists act as they don’t know you next time,narcissists have attention control issues they are all over the place, my personal experience comments.
You're really good on putting our foot down when the offender makes demands.
No, you shouldn't. Noone is entitled to your apology. They can demand but it is still your choice if you do so. Either way, they will be angry. Either because you refuse to or, if you do, because they see you as weak and a play ball
Thank you. My narcissistic mother has a persistent pattern of making me seek forgiveness from others, and then later regretting it by telling me that I didn't need to all along. I'm done with her mind control games.
You need to forgive to heal YOURSELF,the narc needs to repent,which is not going to happen most of the time.He/she is perfect right?
People and Dr. Carter, I am here to say living alone is easier. Loneliness threw me back into something I wish never happened. Well at least I won't be as lonely when I'm alone again, I'll realize my good fortune next time.🎉❤
If a narc wants you to forgive you know it is a lie ,what is not a lie is you forgiving you for letting you being treated like that and that is separeted from the narc . it has little to do with them in the end .
This is so good & helpfull. My healing from a narcicistic familiy is an ungoing journey and only started when i discovered video's like this on you tube a few years ago. I am 55. Everyday i watch to learn and understand what & how. Its mindblowing to be free in a new world with kind people.
Forgiving a narciscist is dangerous.
For 28 years I did and things got worse and worse until it was violent. Strangely I feel nothing towards him now. No hate no bitterness nothing. Now I can focus on me
I-ve just read a book with the interesting title "The Temptation of Forgiveness"...It might seem as a tolerant and easy way out, but may keep you a prisoner for a lifetime.
I think that forgiveness should be given to anyone for anything as God commands us to do and it is important for our wellbeing.
Note that forgiveness does not contradict justice.
Although reconciliation is a choice and it depends on a lot of factors. Nobody must reconcile with someone else without accountability of the wrong doing When we do it, it leads to toxic and abusive relationships.
Luke 17:3-4 "Rebuke, and IF Repent, Then Forgive." We all sin, and it is only when we are full of remorse and seek forgiveness that we are forgiven. If we do not acknowledge and repent of our sins, we are not forgiven. It is important that we do not misinterprete biblical teachings. Regardless of how we feel, an unrepentant sinner isn't forgiven, eg Christ on the cross forgave the repentant sinner but not the other. Otherwise, all sinners go to Heaven.
@@ly5142 Agreed but
For my part I see forgiveness at another level as something that our heart can freely offer. Our flesh has a natural way to respond to any pain and hurt : "this is to do the same to whoever cause that pain to make them feelhow we feel". we don't need to learn it nor teach it. its natural. We forgive anytime we don't treat the other person as they treat us.
Forgiveness is that position where you let go this natural desire to get revenge for ourselves.
We seek justice to stop the wrongdoer, to protect ourselves and our community or to help them recognize that what they did is wrong ....
Now , in order to reconcile /to develop friendship again or any kind of relationship with that person who did wrong to us we have to consider if they repented, if they changed , if it is worth , if this or that ...... And I think this is here the biggest problem bc some will think that if we forgive we need to be the same again or to accept the same. NO 👎 we don't have to. All depend in how deep the hurt was and the behavior of that person who cause it.
So true. If you don't repent you're not forgiven but that must not mean that forgiveness was not offered to you.
We forgive every time we freely let go the natural desire to treat the other person the same way he treated us.
@@ermiterenald1363
🎯
I would only add one more detail,
God requires repentance to give His forgiveness to men.
But we human beings are required to offer forgiveness (= no revenge) to all human beings. Obviously we offer our forgiveness when we are ready to do it, as soon as possible, by the grace of God, with His help.
And, obviously, our forgiveness doesn't mean we forget the story. We "let go" the story, and we move on with our life - just like dr C said in this video. And he said it much more better than me .
Italy here.
English grammar not here 😅
Please be patient Team Healthy 🙏
Yes, exactly, for Christians, there is no "forgiveness" without the complete process as described many times in the bible. Rebuke, Repent (regret, change of heart, atone, ask for forgiveness etc.), then Forgive. Every repentant sinner (as described in the bible) deserves our forgiveness. Unrepentant sinners, upon many interventions, witnessed and rebuked by neutral fellow Christians, are to be treated as nonbelievers and avoided. This doesn't mean "taking revenge". Not taking revenge, praying to God for justice one day and for healing, moving on but not giving up accountability, yellow rock, etc. doesnt mean forgiveness. The case of the adulterous son who was involved with his step mother is a clear case. God doesn't accept abuse for us, we are to courteously distance ourselves from unrepentant sinners, and the gift of forgiveness is only offered upon repentance. Being always ready to forgive upon repentance is not the same as always forgiving no matter what.
Love this podcast especially the last section about self care and finding peace within oneself. The narcissist is so damaging to the self esteem that they weaken our ability to think clearly about the abuse they deliver. These podcasts support our inner wisdom and lend perspective. So very helpful. Thank you, Dr. Carter.
So pleased, Barbara!
I have obsessed over what I could have done differently to handle it better, and if I could have had a better outcome.