The big "What if" for the Mongol Empire is "what if Möngke lived even another 5 years?" I think you'd end up with a very different second half of the thirteenth century
There should be a show styled like that of the Sopranos, but the main cast are the Mongol Khans and their generals fighting over territories around the world. :p
Another great video. Jackmeister, if you see this, who do you think is the most interesting descendant of Chinggis Khan? I'm curious what other people think too. I'd say Mongke, imho.
Möngke is a good choice; someone like Möngke-Temür Khan, Qaidu or Abaqa, when their reigns deal a lot with interactions with the other khanates, I always enjoy reading about. Some of my favourites though are fellows like Toqtamish or Dayan Khan, capable monarchs who reunify things; the way they work and adapt their Chinggisid ancestry into the new world orders and shifting dynamics of much decentralized states is really fascinating. Toqtamish might even have been remembered as the greatest Golden Horde khan, had he not gone against Temür.
If you're interested in reading more about Berke's conversion and already saw Hikma History's video, you can read the annotated version I made of that script here: www.academia.edu/66037405/The_Conversion_of_Berke_Khan
Imagine if Güyüg Khan did not die in 1248 after just 2 years of rule; we might have had a civil war right then, between him and Batu. That would have changed a lotta things. Perhaps you can do a series of "what ifs" on Mongol history.
I always wondered if it would have actually gone as far as that, or if it would have ended up with Batu bowing his head and accepting more the oversight of Qaraqorum. In the Chagatai Khanate, Güyük replaced the khan, Qara-Hülegü, a grandson of Chagatai, with Yesü-Möngke, one of Chagatai's surviving sons. The official excuse was "Why should a grandson succeed when a son still lives?" though the fact that Yesü-Möngke was also a friend and drinking buddy of Güyük certainly helped. Güyük was on good terms with Orda, Batu's older brother, and I imagine his thought would have been to replace Batu with him. Having some sort of support for this within the Jochid lands may have made this successful, and Batu unwilling or unable to resist it.
I'm not personally the biggest fan of "what ifs," beyond a few lines to illustrate a point. They're fine enough for a smaller topic, but big picture wise there's always so many moving parts involved, that I don't think I could ever write it to my liking. There's talk with doing alternate history on Kings and Generals' new channel about fantasy battles and I've been asked for my thoughts regarding "what if Mongols attacked Europe again before the end of the 1240s)." I don't know if it will actually proceed to becoming a video, but that's realistically probably going to be the extent of my involvement in any Mongol what ifs, other than answering a few briefly in comments.
The problem too once you start doing 'what ifs,' is that inevitable people will ask for just battle scenarios, like "who would win? Mongol army vs Roman legion?" which I don't care for at all. Just play a custom battle in a Total War game and sort that out.
Muslim historian Rashid-al-Din Hamadani quoted Berke Khan as telling his Mongols and Muslim subjects, in protest at the attack on Baghdad: "He (Hulagu) has sacked all the cities of the Muslims, and has brought about the death of the Caliph. With the help of God I will call him to account for so much innocent blood." (see The Mongol Warlords, quoting Rashid al-Din's record of Berke Khan's pronouncement; this quote is also found in The Mamluk-Ilkhanid War)
Another great video Jackmeister ! Could you do a video on the armies, arms and armours of the Golden Horde, Ilkhanate and Yuan Dynasty ( I know you covered Chagatai armour, or rather lack of, in your video on Timurid armour ) ?
If I could find enough material on them, I would be willing. I'm not sure if there would be enough to do distinct videos on each. Mostly because it doesn't seem to change all that much between the khanates, beyond things like Yuan reusing Song Dynasty equipment. There's a common assumption (even in 14th century sources) that Ilkhanid troops were better equipped than those of the Golden Horde, but what specifically that entails isn't clear; more heavy cavalry? more swords of higher quality? I don't know enough at the moment to properly answer it, but it would be something I'm willing to look at in future.
Way back whenever I did that video on Mongol weapons and armour, my thought had always been "this video will cover 1200-1250, and at some point I'll do one for 1250-1300, which highlights the general changes in equipment." One thing I have the ability to do now since I've in touch with a lot more archaeologists who specialize on the Golden Horde, would be looking into what the surviving archaeological remains of Jochid equipment is like. From what I understand it mostly dates to mid- to late-fourteenth century.
Rashid al-Din portrays it as Berke actually abandoning his camp; I suspect this was Rashid attempting to salvage Abaqa's reputation a bit and make it feel a bit more like he had Berke on the run.
Very glad you liked them. I definitely tried a few things here and I hoped they'd come across well... the battle on the ice was very close to what I imagined, but didn't quite come out how I wanted with the final thing.
Love the dedication Jackmeister! Sending love from Mongolia 🇲🇳 please send your contact info, I would be happy to host you in Mongolia! Let’s ride some horses and eat Mongolian food!
Bayarlaa! I would dearly love to be able to go sometime in the next few years. I have not ridden a horse in many years now, and would be very up for that. If the opportunity comes up I will put a notice on the channel so that I can meet anyone interested in doing so.
Thank you again for this particularly well done video. I am always interested in battle stories. Do you know if there are any sources that accurately describe the battles between Hulegu and Berke (the battle of Terek for example)? So far, I haven't found anything. Thanks again to you
Hi Jean, The most detailed account of the war comes from Rashid al-Din (d.1318), a vizier of the Ilkhanate. There's a partial translation of his work you can read here: archive.org/details/Boyle1971RashidAlDin/page/n131/mode/2up around page 123 for the relevant section. But the relevant sections with more detail are only in the fuller translation done by W.M. Thackston. While Rashid provides the most detail and coverage, his account is corroborated by numerous other contemporaries. The defeat at the Terek and collapse of the ice is noted in numerous sources: Marco Polo, (chapter 24 of this translation, though Polo, having learned of it while travelling through the Ilkhanate, got the more-pro Hulegu version which turned it into a pyrrhic victory for Hulegu archive.org/details/the-travels-of-marco-polo/page/n191/mode/2up) Qutb al-Din Shirazi Ahkbar-i Moghulan (pg. 69) Kirakos Ganjaketsi (see chapter 65) (archive.org/details/KirakosGanjaketsisHistoryOfTheArmenians/mode/2up ) There's a few others that simply mention the battle or the fact of the ice; again, Rashid al-Din is the only one who gives appreciable detail. If you are interested in more on that send me an email and I can sed you some sources that I can't attach here.
I am a djrect descendant from the mongols who raided in to syria and then in to the Turkmenistan and turcic area. Mashallah good to know they were muslim.
Hey, was this supposed to be the end of the Nogai series, and if not do you plan to continue it? I looked through the description and your channel, and this seems to be the last video you have on Nogai, but it seems like you never got to the part where Nogai helps overthrow one of the khans or “declares independence”. Your initial video seemed to be setting up you talking about Nogai’s later career and explaining how he wasn’t actually kingmaker or as Wikipedia says, “de facto ruler” of the Golden Horde. I didn’t see any comments mentioning this though so perhaps I’m missing something. Regardless, this series has been great and I’m happy there’s at least one UA-cam channel covering this fascinating subject of history in depth.
I think the combination of Möngke's death and Berke's war saved the Mamluks from facing the revenge of Hülegü immediately.. and in those first years when Baybars was still trying to solidify control, those were very crucial years to have.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Even if Berke-Huagu war didnt happened,what would Hulagu do other than taking Syria ? Obviously,he cant go to egypt with 50.000 cavalry and less than this would be easy prey for Mamluks
@@harzemsahtekin4441 Here's the possibilities I was considering. Assuming Ayn Jalut still happens. Qutuz had appointed many of his loyalists in many centres in Syria after Ayn Jalut, and after the battle had taken submission of Syrian bedouin and other local powers who had previously submitted to Mongols. When Baybars had Qutuz assassinated, it took him some time to deal with these Qutuz loyalists, as well as other regional powers in former Ayyubid territory who didn't recognize Mamluk authority. What I think might have happened is, if Hülegü returned in force before, say, 1264 (instead of trying to establish his own state), he may have arrived before Baybars had a chance to secure his frontier. Those governors/people who didn't like Baybars' coup (or the Mamluks in general) may have sided with the Mongols (as many had before 1260), while Hülegü made whatever promises to bring people to his side. Consider this too: Baybars may it his policy that the response to any Ilkhanid invasion was to basically bring out the entire Mamluk army and face them in the field before the Mongols had the chance to march past Syria into Palestine. Instead of the Mamluk frontier being something of a side-show for the Ilkhans, if Hülegü once again entered in Syria with force (not a huge army, as even Saladin I think rarely raised armies larger than 12,000 in the region due to logistical reason, but something large enough to give them advantage over the Mamluks), Hülegü only needs to essentially win one battle; Baybars had to win every single one. The idea being, is that without having to fight or worry about other Mongol khanates, Hülegü (or his successor) could commit not just the right troops, but spend the time and effort for adequate logistics to supply an army along the Levantine coast throughout the winter, regardless of Mamluk strategies to deny them feed (for example, the Mamluks would empty grain storages, or burn pastures along the Mongol advance route). Möngke had ordered a similarly large preparation for Hülegü's advance on the Isma'ilis. And assuming in this scenario, Baybars was unable to secure all of the cities or bedouin in Syria, these are no longer obstacles to the Mongol advance but supply depots, allies, intelligence helping them along the route.
@@harzemsahtekin4441 Those assumptions rely on there being political will within the Mongol Empire to support and supply such a campaign; without it, it might look similar to what actually happened, where the Mongols basically gave Baybars' all of the advantages in order to create an incredibly skilled defensive network. The only chance of a quick Mongol victory is basically attacking BEFORE Baybars had a chance to develop that system. Even then, could a Mongol army have crossed the Sinai? Could they supply themselves in a siege of Cairo? Those are hard questions to answer, and would have been very difficult. I'm not inclined to say the environment alone was the impossible barrier: had Chinggis Khan failed to cross the Qaraqum desert to attack Bukhara in 1220, then we might saying it was an impossible desert for Chinggis to cross. But with local guides, the element of surprise, the right season and adequate supplies, it was massively advantageous for him to do so. If a Mongol army had such advantages, and took away Baybars' skilled defensive network, then that would be more favourable. Then it becomes a matter of assuming that Hülegü learned the lessons of Kitbuqa's defeat for planning the next battle with Baybars.
@@harzemsahtekin4441 Alternatively, Hülegü marches into Syria and suddenly dies (as Mongol princes liked to do an inconvienent times; Baybars annihilates his panicking army and actually advances into Mongol territory as far as Baghdad. It's not so simple as "Möngke lives, no Berke-Hülegü war, therefore all of Egypt conquered." It's just much worse for the Mamluks, if the Ilkhanate is able to devote adequate resources towards them.
I suppose that depends if you think Qutuz's claim was truthful! Personally I think it's a bit unlikely; I think he happened to from the former Khwarezmian Empire, and then when he took power in Egypt he made up a royal lineage to give himself legitimacy (since, as a Mamluk and a slave soldier, it didn't give him much right to rule). And if you wanted to resist the Mongols, well Jalal al-Din Mingburnu was of course the most famous in the region for his efforts at doing that. I think all of Mingburnu's brothers were killed during the first invasion or soon after. A number of his sisters get taken as wives by Chinggis' sons, but it's not clear if what sons, if any, belong to them (Berke was not a son of one of Muhammad bin Tekish's daughters, as he was born before the Khwarezmian campaign). If I remember correctly, Jalal al-Din only had young children at the time of his death, and I think the sources are vague on whether it's sons or daughters. Or they might not be vague and I am just not remembering correctly. It has been a while since I read about Mingburnu. At least one daughter was captured by Chormaqun Noyan and I think ended up being concubine for Ögedai or Hülegü, or married off to some Ilkhanid official or local lord. So she would be the last living member of the Anushtegenids, I suppose.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I think his claim was trutful. There were many ex-Khwarezmian commander in Mamluk Sultanete who are sons of Menguberdi's comrades and Baybars-Kalavun has close relations with them. If Kutuz was fraud,Pro-Baybars and Pro-Kalavun sources wouldnt miss the opurtunity to write it.
So this is something I'm actually in the midst of discussing with Kings and Generals. Basically, there is some ongoing translation work by Dr. Christopher Atwood of some of the Chinese sources (from Jin, Song and Yuan dynasties) which is actually given us a much better understanding of the war, and changed the order of some events. It's really great material; I've incorporated some into the podcast but I want to try and synthesize the entire thing now (which is turning out to be a big project). Anyways, Kings and Generals propsoed to me that we would revisit their first Mongol videos, and basically have me rewrite them (as I had not been involved at the time). The end of the Mongol-Jin war didn't even get covered there. So if we end up going through with that plan, I will show it there (I also mentioned doing a series focusing on the Jin, starting from their initial conquests in early 12th century); if that falls through, then I will make the videos on my channel (which would be more space to talk about the sources too at the same time).
I imagine the powerful combination of 1) a Chinggisid who believes in his right and destiny to rule making him overconfident, so he was convinced his judgement was always sound 2) his depression clouding his judgement and making him eager to find an easy solution, while also not wanting to face potential humiliation again leading the army himself 3) the fact that Hülegü seems to have been a bit gullible (Rashid al-Din mentions that lots of charlatans made a lot of money off Hülegü convincing him that they could turn other metals into gold). bin Mughahid had made his way quickly up as one of Hülegü's favourites, so we can imagine he must have been a pretty convincing individual.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory 2 feels very accurate to me, having seen close friends and family in depression and having gone through a similar phase myself. People with depression have a strong tendency to put all their eggs in one basket in hopes of a miracle that will undo everything. When this backfires, it sends them down a deeper chasm
Very well said. I think it is always important to remember the human element to these individuals; despite all the terrible things many of them did, they were still people, and could suffer from the same things you or I did. I imagine the mental whiplash of believing yourself a great conqueror destined to rule the world, yet met with defeats and setbacks, results in a pressure that would explain many of the erratic actions of numerous khans, never mind the alcoholism they suffered from. When someone is just a name on a page, and their fate already determined for us, it becomes too easy to forget the uncertainty they faced as well.
So here's the full quote, from the Galician-Volhynian Chronicle, pg. 84. "(1264?) 6774 (1266). A revolt took place among the Tatars themselves. They slaughtered [as] many [of their own people] as there are grains of sand in the sea." It's not a lot of detail, so it's tough to say definitively. To me this looks like the chronicler understood this as Mongols fighting other Mongols. Timing wise, the war against the Ilkhanate seems the most likely explanation. The rest of the sources have Möngke-Temür's accession appear to happen without issue, so it doesn't seem a good explanation for killing a huge amount of Tatars. But we could argue that to a Rus' chronicler, what's the difference between Bulghars and Mongols after 1240? Anyways, I've been looking through the 13th and 14th century sources and I've not found reference among them for a Volga Bulghar rebellion in the 1260s. Möngke-Temür does campaign against the Alans though, late in the 1270s.
If there was a rebellion among the Volga Bulghars during Möngke-Temür's reign, I don't think it saw much destruction among their territories. From what I last read about the topic, it looks like the Bulghar region recovers well over the thirteenth century after the invasion, and doesn't receive the same level of destruction. But consider this; Bulghar becomes a major mint for Jochid coinage. I don't know if it begins before or during the reign of Möngke-Temür. So I wonder if there was an effort by the Jochid khan to really secure that region; maybe without fire and destruction, but done in order to secure the Horde's hold on the Volga-Kama trade as well as the mint over local opposition, and this is what Abu'l Ghazi is remembering (perhaps playing it up as more of a campaign than it really was). From what I understand Abu'l Ghazi relied much on Rashid al-Din, some other well known thirteenth century sources, but also oral folklore. Some of the Rashid elements are obvious, but then Abu'l Ghazi writes about Möngke-Temür dying in battle, or Töde-Möngke levying heavy taxes. Möngke-Temür didn't die in battle (he had a surgery on his neck which went wrong) and Töde-Möngke's internal administration goes totally unmentioned by Ilkhanate sources as far as I can tell. Which makes me think that this what the 'folk memory,' was of the his period, and there was some sort of recollection of a Jochid attack (?) on Bulghar during Möngke-Temür's reign.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory According to Abul Ghazi,Möngke Timur made campaign against Volga Bulgars before his peace with Abaqa: ''He(Möngke Timur) went against Bulgars and after two year return as victorius,then he made a peace with Abaqa and return''
The Galician-Volynian quote actually lines up well with that... Abaqa and Mongke-Temur's peace was probably in 1268/1269, so an attack on the Volga Bulghars around 1266 would fit there.
Hülegü is supposed to be have been buried on an island in the Caspian sea; the Il-Khans until Ghazan all had secret burials (if they got one at all). I don't know if any specific sites are recorded for them, but it seems to me there wasn't. Ghazan and Öljeitü had massive mausoleums built for themselves in Tabriz and Sultaniyya, respectively (their capitals). I don't know for Abu Sa'id. Probably near Tabriz as he died not far from there.
The Berke-Hülegü War and the Toluid Civil War were the primary conflicts that broke apart the empire. Qaidu's wars only begin after these other wars had broken the Imperial unity. The wars of Qaidu are a consequence of these larger conflicts (and certainly help deepen the divide) but they were not of the same weight and not a factor in thr initial breakup of the empire. Still, ater Qaidu's death, cooperation against Qaidu's heirs by the other khanates leads to a brief resumption in Imperial unity and recognition as Temür Öljeitü as Khan
Hey Jack,not relevant with topic but did your read Edgar Alan Poe's ''The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket'' ? If you didnt read,you should read. Book just defination of perfection
Unfortunately I have not; the only piece of Poe's writing I've ever actually looked at was his Tamerlane poem (for obvious reasons). But if you recommend it, I'll see if I can find a copy. I recently read a historical fiction book, which wasn't really that good, but it was nice reading something and not feeling like I had to be taking notes on it.
I saw the images on Google... you are a lucky man, my friend, to be able to fish in such a beautiful region. I hope you enjoy greater success with your rods, than I have ever had.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory thanks buddy. Yes Australia has some pristine wilderness that’s for sure. Plus the lakes here haven’t been overfished. Maybe one day you can come here I’ll take you fishing you can regale me with tales of the Mongols … deal?
Basically, diet: lots of alcohol (binge drinking celebrated as a 'manly thing'; fine with low alcoholic airag, rather less good with much more potent alcohols from sedentary soceities), in addition to very rich, meat heavy diets. Their normal steppe diet taken to an extreme; instead of meat on occasion, or more regularly as a part of soups, now it was every single meal, alongside unlimited access to alcohol. Coupled with much less active lifestyles of the princes, it was a recipe for gout it seems. I wonder though, if there was not also a genetic disposition among the Chinggisids to gout which accentuated this? I don't know how you could prove that, but it may have been a factor too.
Just a few minutes of it, though I'd like the watch full the full thing. I believe that's the one where the Mongols all speak a Turkic dialect considered closest to the fourteen the century? I also thought the costuming was impressive, for the few minutes of it I watched.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I know you don’t have much time but you should watch it it really gives the impression it’s a Mongol movie and I wish there were more like it.
Can ı ask something from you ? if one day you write Mongol video which consist Mamluks,can you help to animation team about clothes and armors? I dont know why but everytime they draw Turkic characters with middle east look and arabic dress They even put CK2 indian character to Guchluk of Naiman🤭
When I see the previews and I catch that, I try to correct them (sometimes those are added after I watched them). What I'm just starting to do now is attach more of my artwork in my notes to them, and tell them to just use that as reference... In a preview I watched just yesterday, the animator had done this painting of Mamai, and made him basically a Caucasian looking guy with a red moustache. Luckily we caught that and I sent him the art I did of Mamai to use instead. That will be my strategy for solving that from now on....
No evidence for it, as far as I have seen. None of the Mamluk military manuals or other iconography depict them, and I have not heard of any ever being discovered in Egypt. I've actually heard a recent argument that the masks actually become more common in fourteenth century, and are very rare before that, though I've not read into that very much.
Their was a continuance in Turkic style clothing and hair styles among Mamluks well into fourteenth century, but in terms of actual equipment they seem to mostly use locally produced items- which makes sense, given that most Qichaps were sold as children and unlikely many young boys had full sets of armour with them. We would imagine that, through the nature of the reliance on Turkic troops, most of the professionally made equipment in Cairo was heavily influenced by Turkic warriors, but not necessarily Qipchap.
Given that a number of Mongol defectors joined the Mamluks over the thirteenth century, we might wonder if Mongol influenced armour had greater influence in appearances in Mamluk Egypt, than Qipchaq did. It would be interesting to research, that's for certain. Looking deeper into Mamluk equipment would be a lot of fun if I ever get time or a chance to do so.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I think clothes style of Mamluks was continuation of Seljuk-Turkmen stle which brought into egypt by Zengids-Ayyubids But it's good to remember,Turk-Mongol clothes look mostly same as can see in Rashid-Al Din's work
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I agree that it may have been influenced by the Mongols in terms of armor. Seljuks and Kıpchaks also used lamaller but style of armors which used by Mamluks look similar to Khitan/Jurchen/Mongol style lamaller
No, quite the opposite. While Berke did little else than to complain, Hülegü carved out his personal empire. Taking what he wanted, killing who was in his way and giving no f...at all.
Why Turkmens of middle east became such deadly force against Mongol inheritor states after 14.century ? Karakoyunlu-Akkoyunlu defeated Timurids-Jalairids and reestablished Oghuz sovereignty in middle east,Kızılbash cavarly destroyed Uzbek army and killed its military-genius founder(Sheyban Khan),Afsharids vassalised Khanate of Khiva and Bukhara. IMO,it seem very impressive military background and gives me the impression that they were the most influential cavalry force of their time(from 15.century to end of 18.century) I wonder your opinion
I've not studied the various Turkmen groups enough to really give a confident answer. But I remember ready how Babur talks with jealousy in his memoirs over how the Uzbeks under Shaybani were capable of much more impressive cavalry maneuvers compared to the contemporary Timurid princes (in most of Babur's writings the last Timurids appear capable of small raids and little else). If I was to make one guess, it would be experience with large cavalry formations. The only one anyone becomes an effective cavalry army, is after extensive, extensive experiencing operating as one. Not just living on horseback (that's more important for the operational side of things) but knowing the formations, manuevers etc., and being able to carry them out, in a large body, without colliding into each other (or at least, being able to force enough control over the princes in your army to follow such an order; when each prince of the army thinks he had a total and equal right to rule, it's very difficult to get them to place nice in a command structure. So with the later Timurids, there is an absolute failure to carry this out. Shaybani does a better job, but I think even before the battle of Merv his army suffered losses in the battles beforehand and put him in a bad position. Ismail's army capitalized on this, and used the terrain to its advantage, and his cavalry proved equal to the Uzbeks.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory What about Kara Yusuf's victories against Timurids ? He defeated a war machine which consisted by veterans who fight from Moghulistan to Smyrna under big boss'(Timur) banner
@@earlmahmud9637 didn't he defeat armies under Temür's sons? Mostly, the big thing to Timurid military success was Temür himself. The main arm of his army was the usual post-Mongol Empire horse archers (and troops from the Chagatai area are usually considered poorer equipped compared to western Iran/Caucasus area). It's no coincidence how quickly Timurids lost territory after Temür's death: he was very literally the only thing holding the empire together.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I mean,Yusuf came from exile and with his Turkmens just beat the hell out of Timurid armies who constantly fought in military campaigns from East Chagatai to Anatolia. Yeah,seem Timur's absence major factor. But how the hell bunch of Turkmen nomads defeated such experienced armies and ending their dominion over middle east,this is what i'm having trouble understanding
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I am not sure about Chagatai soldiers poorer equiped. El omar-i,traveler in 14century said Chagatai soldiers have complete equipment
Be sure to check out Hikma History's video on the conversion of Berke Khan to islam: ua-cam.com/video/fGvLtc-F4Q8/v-deo.html
Dude I don't understand how the pronunciation of Mongol names just rolls off your tongue... P.S. Awesome to collab with you!
If I ever got a pronunciation correct, it's only because a Mongolian has previously pointed out when I said it wrong...
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory 😂
Happy new year buddy and thanks for everything looking forward to more product from my OG mongol historian…
Happy new years to you as well; I hope to have many more videos on the way for 2022!
If Batu or Mongke lived, I don't think there was this circus
The big "What if" for the Mongol Empire is "what if Möngke lived even another 5 years?" I think you'd end up with a very different second half of the thirteenth century
Take a shot whenever a Jochid prince dies
That's not fair, nearly as many Toluid ones died as well
@@kolsveinnskraevolding If I told people to take a shot for both Jochid and Toluid deaths, it would destroy their livers
At least the cause isn't always Alcohol
There should be a show styled like that of the Sopranos, but the main cast are the Mongol Khans and their generals fighting over territories around the world. :p
There should be, but instead we got things like Marco Polo season 2 where a Crusader army somehow sneaks into Yuan China without anyone noticing.
Great video. Thank you!
Very glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for watching!
Another great video. Jackmeister, if you see this, who do you think is the most interesting descendant of Chinggis Khan? I'm curious what other people think too. I'd say Mongke, imho.
Möngke is a good choice; someone like Möngke-Temür Khan, Qaidu or Abaqa, when their reigns deal a lot with interactions with the other khanates, I always enjoy reading about. Some of my favourites though are fellows like Toqtamish or Dayan Khan, capable monarchs who reunify things; the way they work and adapt their Chinggisid ancestry into the new world orders and shifting dynamics of much decentralized states is really fascinating. Toqtamish might even have been remembered as the greatest Golden Horde khan, had he not gone against Temür.
good video as always
Thank you!
If you're interested in reading more about Berke's conversion and already saw Hikma History's video, you can read the annotated version I made of that script here: www.academia.edu/66037405/The_Conversion_of_Berke_Khan
Amazing!
Sa
@@papazataklaattiranimam as kanka
Got recommend by hikma history very interesting
Imagine if Güyüg Khan did not die in 1248 after just 2 years of rule; we might have had a civil war right then, between him and Batu. That would have changed a lotta things. Perhaps you can do a series of "what ifs" on Mongol history.
I always wondered if it would have actually gone as far as that, or if it would have ended up with Batu bowing his head and accepting more the oversight of Qaraqorum. In the Chagatai Khanate, Güyük replaced the khan, Qara-Hülegü, a grandson of Chagatai, with Yesü-Möngke, one of Chagatai's surviving sons. The official excuse was "Why should a grandson succeed when a son still lives?" though the fact that Yesü-Möngke was also a friend and drinking buddy of Güyük certainly helped. Güyük was on good terms with Orda, Batu's older brother, and I imagine his thought would have been to replace Batu with him. Having some sort of support for this within the Jochid lands may have made this successful, and Batu unwilling or unable to resist it.
I'm not personally the biggest fan of "what ifs," beyond a few lines to illustrate a point. They're fine enough for a smaller topic, but big picture wise there's always so many moving parts involved, that I don't think I could ever write it to my liking. There's talk with doing alternate history on Kings and Generals' new channel about fantasy battles and I've been asked for my thoughts regarding "what if Mongols attacked Europe again before the end of the 1240s)." I don't know if it will actually proceed to becoming a video, but that's realistically probably going to be the extent of my involvement in any Mongol what ifs, other than answering a few briefly in comments.
The problem too once you start doing 'what ifs,' is that inevitable people will ask for just battle scenarios, like "who would win? Mongol army vs Roman legion?" which I don't care for at all. Just play a custom battle in a Total War game and sort that out.
Muslim historian Rashid-al-Din Hamadani quoted Berke Khan as telling his Mongols and Muslim subjects, in protest at the attack on Baghdad:
"He (Hulagu) has sacked all the cities of the Muslims, and has brought about the death of the Caliph. With the help of God I will call him to account for so much innocent blood." (see The Mongol Warlords, quoting Rashid al-Din's record of Berke Khan's pronouncement; this quote is also found in The Mamluk-Ilkhanid War)
Another great video Jackmeister ! Could you do a video on the armies, arms and armours of the Golden Horde, Ilkhanate and Yuan Dynasty ( I know you covered Chagatai armour, or rather lack of, in your video on Timurid armour ) ?
If I could find enough material on them, I would be willing. I'm not sure if there would be enough to do distinct videos on each. Mostly because it doesn't seem to change all that much between the khanates, beyond things like Yuan reusing Song Dynasty equipment. There's a common assumption (even in 14th century sources) that Ilkhanid troops were better equipped than those of the Golden Horde, but what specifically that entails isn't clear; more heavy cavalry? more swords of higher quality? I don't know enough at the moment to properly answer it, but it would be something I'm willing to look at in future.
Way back whenever I did that video on Mongol weapons and armour, my thought had always been "this video will cover 1200-1250, and at some point I'll do one for 1250-1300, which highlights the general changes in equipment." One thing I have the ability to do now since I've in touch with a lot more archaeologists who specialize on the Golden Horde, would be looking into what the surviving archaeological remains of Jochid equipment is like. From what I understand it mostly dates to mid- to late-fourteenth century.
That Berke feigned retreat might as well be straight outta Herodotus
Rashid al-Din portrays it as Berke actually abandoning his camp; I suspect this was Rashid attempting to salvage Abaqa's reputation a bit and make it feel a bit more like he had Berke on the run.
Paints of this video is the best
Very glad you liked them. I definitely tried a few things here and I hoped they'd come across well... the battle on the ice was very close to what I imagined, but didn't quite come out how I wanted with the final thing.
*Berke was a true hero of humanity, his actions saved countless people. May Allah bless Berke Khan.*
Because you are Muslim
Love the dedication Jackmeister! Sending love from Mongolia 🇲🇳 please send your contact info, I would be happy to host you in Mongolia! Let’s ride some horses and eat Mongolian food!
Bayarlaa! I would dearly love to be able to go sometime in the next few years. I have not ridden a horse in many years now, and would be very up for that. If the opportunity comes up I will put a notice on the channel so that I can meet anyone interested in doing so.
Top tier content
Thank you again for this particularly well done video. I am always interested in battle stories. Do you know if there are any sources that accurately describe the battles between Hulegu and Berke (the battle of Terek for example)? So far, I haven't found anything.
Thanks again to you
Hi Jean,
The most detailed account of the war comes from Rashid al-Din (d.1318), a vizier of the Ilkhanate. There's a partial translation of his work you can read here: archive.org/details/Boyle1971RashidAlDin/page/n131/mode/2up around page 123 for the relevant section. But the relevant sections with more detail are only in the fuller translation done by W.M. Thackston.
While Rashid provides the most detail and coverage, his account is corroborated by numerous other contemporaries. The defeat at the Terek and collapse of the ice is noted in numerous sources: Marco Polo, (chapter 24 of this translation, though Polo, having learned of it while travelling through the Ilkhanate, got the more-pro Hulegu version which turned it into a pyrrhic victory for Hulegu archive.org/details/the-travels-of-marco-polo/page/n191/mode/2up)
Qutb al-Din Shirazi Ahkbar-i Moghulan (pg. 69) Kirakos Ganjaketsi (see chapter 65) (archive.org/details/KirakosGanjaketsisHistoryOfTheArmenians/mode/2up )
There's a few others that simply mention the battle or the fact of the ice; again, Rashid al-Din is the only one who gives appreciable detail. If you are interested in more on that send me an email and I can sed you some sources that I can't attach here.
I am a djrect descendant from the mongols who raided in to syria and then in to the Turkmenistan and turcic area.
Mashallah good to know they were muslim.
Hey, was this supposed to be the end of the Nogai series, and if not do you plan to continue it?
I looked through the description and your channel, and this seems to be the last video you have on Nogai, but it seems like you never got to the part where Nogai helps overthrow one of the khans or “declares independence”. Your initial video seemed to be setting up you talking about Nogai’s later career and explaining how he wasn’t actually kingmaker or as Wikipedia says, “de facto ruler” of the Golden Horde. I didn’t see any comments mentioning this though so perhaps I’m missing something. Regardless, this series has been great and I’m happy there’s at least one UA-cam channel covering this fascinating subject of history in depth.
If Berke had not had religious aspirations, Ilkhanate would have subjugated the entire Muslim world.
I think the combination of Möngke's death and Berke's war saved the Mamluks from facing the revenge of Hülegü immediately.. and in those first years when Baybars was still trying to solidify control, those were very crucial years to have.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Even if Berke-Huagu war didnt happened,what would Hulagu do other than taking Syria ?
Obviously,he cant go to egypt with 50.000 cavalry and less than this would be easy prey for Mamluks
@@harzemsahtekin4441 Here's the possibilities I was considering. Assuming Ayn Jalut still happens. Qutuz had appointed many of his loyalists in many centres in Syria after Ayn Jalut, and after the battle had taken submission of Syrian bedouin and other local powers who had previously submitted to Mongols. When Baybars had Qutuz assassinated, it took him some time to deal with these Qutuz loyalists, as well as other regional powers in former Ayyubid territory who didn't recognize Mamluk authority. What I think might have happened is, if Hülegü returned in force before, say, 1264 (instead of trying to establish his own state), he may have arrived before Baybars had a chance to secure his frontier. Those governors/people who didn't like Baybars' coup (or the Mamluks in general) may have sided with the Mongols (as many had before 1260), while Hülegü made whatever promises to bring people to his side.
Consider this too: Baybars may it his policy that the response to any Ilkhanid invasion was to basically bring out the entire Mamluk army and face them in the field before the Mongols had the chance to march past Syria into Palestine. Instead of the Mamluk frontier being something of a side-show for the Ilkhans, if Hülegü once again entered in Syria with force (not a huge army, as even Saladin I think rarely raised armies larger than 12,000 in the region due to logistical reason, but something large enough to give them advantage over the Mamluks), Hülegü only needs to essentially win one battle; Baybars had to win every single one.
The idea being, is that without having to fight or worry about other Mongol khanates, Hülegü (or his successor) could commit not just the right troops, but spend the time and effort for adequate logistics to supply an army along the Levantine coast throughout the winter, regardless of Mamluk strategies to deny them feed (for example, the Mamluks would empty grain storages, or burn pastures along the Mongol advance route). Möngke had ordered a similarly large preparation for Hülegü's advance on the Isma'ilis. And assuming in this scenario, Baybars was unable to secure all of the cities or bedouin in Syria, these are no longer obstacles to the Mongol advance but supply depots, allies, intelligence helping them along the route.
@@harzemsahtekin4441 Those assumptions rely on there being political will within the Mongol Empire to support and supply such a campaign; without it, it might look similar to what actually happened, where the Mongols basically gave Baybars' all of the advantages in order to create an incredibly skilled defensive network. The only chance of a quick Mongol victory is basically attacking BEFORE Baybars had a chance to develop that system. Even then, could a Mongol army have crossed the Sinai? Could they supply themselves in a siege of Cairo? Those are hard questions to answer, and would have been very difficult.
I'm not inclined to say the environment alone was the impossible barrier: had Chinggis Khan failed to cross the Qaraqum desert to attack Bukhara in 1220, then we might saying it was an impossible desert for Chinggis to cross. But with local guides, the element of surprise, the right season and adequate supplies, it was massively advantageous for him to do so. If a Mongol army had such advantages, and took away Baybars' skilled defensive network, then that would be more favourable. Then it becomes a matter of assuming that Hülegü learned the lessons of Kitbuqa's defeat for planning the next battle with Baybars.
@@harzemsahtekin4441 Alternatively, Hülegü marches into Syria and suddenly dies (as Mongol princes liked to do an inconvienent times; Baybars annihilates his panicking army and actually advances into Mongol territory as far as Baghdad. It's not so simple as "Möngke lives, no Berke-Hülegü war, therefore all of Egypt conquered." It's just much worse for the Mamluks, if the Ilkhanate is able to devote adequate resources towards them.
In Mongolia "Hulegu" is more famouse or respected because of his heavy hand☠
@Mehmed Islamof Can you trust your afterlife?
ua-cam.com/video/Wk-_QBKxDTU/v-deo.html
could you please do a winter reading list featuring books that you like on steppe history? I want to be you when I grow up. Eyvallah Kardeşim
Was Kutuz last living member of Khwarezmian dynasty or there were others ?
I suppose that depends if you think Qutuz's claim was truthful! Personally I think it's a bit unlikely; I think he happened to from the former Khwarezmian Empire, and then when he took power in Egypt he made up a royal lineage to give himself legitimacy (since, as a Mamluk and a slave soldier, it didn't give him much right to rule). And if you wanted to resist the Mongols, well Jalal al-Din Mingburnu was of course the most famous in the region for his efforts at doing that.
I think all of Mingburnu's brothers were killed during the first invasion or soon after. A number of his sisters get taken as wives by Chinggis' sons, but it's not clear if what sons, if any, belong to them (Berke was not a son of one of Muhammad bin Tekish's daughters, as he was born before the Khwarezmian campaign).
If I remember correctly, Jalal al-Din only had young children at the time of his death, and I think the sources are vague on whether it's sons or daughters. Or they might not be vague and I am just not remembering correctly. It has been a while since I read about Mingburnu. At least one daughter was captured by Chormaqun Noyan and I think ended up being concubine for Ögedai or Hülegü, or married off to some Ilkhanid official or local lord. So she would be the last living member of the Anushtegenids, I suppose.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I think his claim was trutful. There were many ex-Khwarezmian commander in Mamluk Sultanete who are sons of Menguberdi's comrades and Baybars-Kalavun has close relations with them.
If Kutuz was fraud,Pro-Baybars and Pro-Kalavun sources wouldnt miss the opurtunity to write it.
Could you complete the Mongol conquest of Jin empire series
So this is something I'm actually in the midst of discussing with Kings and Generals. Basically, there is some ongoing translation work by Dr. Christopher Atwood of some of the Chinese sources (from Jin, Song and Yuan dynasties) which is actually given us a much better understanding of the war, and changed the order of some events. It's really great material; I've incorporated some into the podcast but I want to try and synthesize the entire thing now (which is turning out to be a big project).
Anyways, Kings and Generals propsoed to me that we would revisit their first Mongol videos, and basically have me rewrite them (as I had not been involved at the time). The end of the Mongol-Jin war didn't even get covered there. So if we end up going through with that plan, I will show it there (I also mentioned doing a series focusing on the Jin, starting from their initial conquests in early 12th century); if that falls through, then I will make the videos on my channel (which would be more space to talk about the sources too at the same time).
17:49 How did Helagu not see this coming?
in any case, he deserved it
I imagine the powerful combination of 1) a Chinggisid who believes in his right and destiny to rule making him overconfident, so he was convinced his judgement was always sound 2) his depression clouding his judgement and making him eager to find an easy solution, while also not wanting to face potential humiliation again leading the army himself 3) the fact that Hülegü seems to have been a bit gullible (Rashid al-Din mentions that lots of charlatans made a lot of money off Hülegü convincing him that they could turn other metals into gold). bin Mughahid had made his way quickly up as one of Hülegü's favourites, so we can imagine he must have been a pretty convincing individual.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory
2 feels very accurate to me, having seen close friends and family in depression and having gone through a similar phase myself.
People with depression have a strong tendency to put all their eggs in one basket in hopes of a miracle that will undo everything. When this backfires, it sends them down a deeper chasm
Very well said. I think it is always important to remember the human element to these individuals; despite all the terrible things many of them did, they were still people, and could suffer from the same things you or I did. I imagine the mental whiplash of believing yourself a great conqueror destined to rule the world, yet met with defeats and setbacks, results in a pressure that would explain many of the erratic actions of numerous khans, never mind the alcoholism they suffered from. When someone is just a name on a page, and their fate already determined for us, it becomes too easy to forget the uncertainty they faced as well.
20:46 could be Volga Bulgar rebellion which Abulghazi mentioned ?
So here's the full quote, from the Galician-Volhynian Chronicle, pg. 84.
"(1264?) 6774 (1266). A revolt took place among the Tatars themselves.
They slaughtered [as] many [of their own people] as there are grains of sand
in the sea."
It's not a lot of detail, so it's tough to say definitively. To me this looks like the chronicler understood this as Mongols fighting other Mongols. Timing wise, the war against the Ilkhanate seems the most likely explanation. The rest of the sources have Möngke-Temür's accession appear to happen without issue, so it doesn't seem a good explanation for killing a huge amount of Tatars. But we could argue that to a Rus' chronicler, what's the difference between Bulghars and Mongols after 1240?
Anyways, I've been looking through the 13th and 14th century sources and I've not found reference among them for a Volga Bulghar rebellion in the 1260s. Möngke-Temür does campaign against the Alans though, late in the 1270s.
If there was a rebellion among the Volga Bulghars during Möngke-Temür's reign, I don't think it saw much destruction among their territories. From what I last read about the topic, it looks like the Bulghar region recovers well over the thirteenth century after the invasion, and doesn't receive the same level of destruction.
But consider this; Bulghar becomes a major mint for Jochid coinage. I don't know if it begins before or during the reign of Möngke-Temür. So I wonder if there was an effort by the Jochid khan to really secure that region; maybe without fire and destruction, but done in order to secure the Horde's hold on the Volga-Kama trade as well as the mint over local opposition, and this is what Abu'l Ghazi is remembering (perhaps playing it up as more of a campaign than it really was). From what I understand Abu'l Ghazi relied much on Rashid al-Din, some other well known thirteenth century sources, but also oral folklore. Some of the Rashid elements are obvious, but then Abu'l Ghazi writes about Möngke-Temür dying in battle, or Töde-Möngke levying heavy taxes. Möngke-Temür didn't die in battle (he had a surgery on his neck which went wrong) and Töde-Möngke's internal administration goes totally unmentioned by Ilkhanate sources as far as I can tell. Which makes me think that this what the 'folk memory,' was of the his period, and there was some sort of recollection of a Jochid attack (?) on Bulghar during Möngke-Temür's reign.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory According to Abul Ghazi,Möngke Timur made campaign against Volga Bulgars before his peace with Abaqa:
''He(Möngke Timur) went against Bulgars and after two year return as victorius,then he made a peace with Abaqa and return''
The Galician-Volynian quote actually lines up well with that... Abaqa and Mongke-Temur's peace was probably in 1268/1269, so an attack on the Volga Bulghars around 1266 would fit there.
Need a video on concubines.
14:01
The Genoese and Venetians were everywhere.
They had an international pass.
Ilkhan tombs locations?
Hülegü is supposed to be have been buried on an island in the Caspian sea; the Il-Khans until Ghazan all had secret burials (if they got one at all). I don't know if any specific sites are recorded for them, but it seems to me there wasn't. Ghazan and Öljeitü had massive mausoleums built for themselves in Tabriz and Sultaniyya, respectively (their capitals). I don't know for Abu Sa'id. Probably near Tabriz as he died not far from there.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory any excavation and genetic testing for Chinggisid descendants and his true DNA done yet?
>Not including Kaidu and the Ogudei Khanate's fierce rebellion against the Yuan Dynasty in the list of civil wars that fractured the Mongol Empire.
The Berke-Hülegü War and the Toluid Civil War were the primary conflicts that broke apart the empire. Qaidu's wars only begin after these other wars had broken the Imperial unity. The wars of Qaidu are a consequence of these larger conflicts (and certainly help deepen the divide) but they were not of the same weight and not a factor in thr initial breakup of the empire. Still, ater Qaidu's death, cooperation against Qaidu's heirs by the other khanates leads to a brief resumption in Imperial unity and recognition as Temür Öljeitü as Khan
Hey Jack,not relevant with topic but did your read Edgar Alan Poe's ''The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket'' ?
If you didnt read,you should read.
Book just defination of perfection
Unfortunately I have not; the only piece of Poe's writing I've ever actually looked at was his Tamerlane poem (for obvious reasons). But if you recommend it, I'll see if I can find a copy. I recently read a historical fiction book, which wasn't really that good, but it was nice reading something and not feeling like I had to be taking notes on it.
Where do you go fishing?
I've only ever gone on the inland lakes in British Columbia, in the southern Interior. My brother and father are much more the fishermen than I
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory nice. I noticed the fishing rod is all… I do my fishing in the Great Lakes (Tasmania)
I saw the images on Google... you are a lucky man, my friend, to be able to fish in such a beautiful region. I hope you enjoy greater success with your rods, than I have ever had.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory thanks buddy. Yes Australia has some pristine wilderness that’s for sure. Plus the lakes here haven’t been overfished. Maybe one day you can come here I’ll take you fishing you can regale me with tales of the Mongols … deal?
Why all the Mongol princes suffered from gout? some kind of genetic disorder or caused by Mongol nomadic lifestyle?
Basically, diet: lots of alcohol (binge drinking celebrated as a 'manly thing'; fine with low alcoholic airag, rather less good with much more potent alcohols from sedentary soceities), in addition to very rich, meat heavy diets. Their normal steppe diet taken to an extreme; instead of meat on occasion, or more regularly as a part of soups, now it was every single meal, alongside unlimited access to alcohol. Coupled with much less active lifestyles of the princes, it was a recipe for gout it seems.
I wonder though, if there was not also a genetic disposition among the Chinggisids to gout which accentuated this? I don't know how you could prove that, but it may have been a factor too.
Hey buddy have you seen the Mongol movie on UA-cam called “The Horde”? I think it’s Russian it’s fantastic, I loved it anyway!
Just a few minutes of it, though I'd like the watch full the full thing. I believe that's the one where the Mongols all speak a Turkic dialect considered closest to the fourteen the century? I also thought the costuming was impressive, for the few minutes of it I watched.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I know you don’t have much time but you should watch it it really gives the impression it’s a Mongol movie and I wish there were more like it.
❤️💜💖💗
Can ı ask something from you ?
if one day you write Mongol video which consist Mamluks,can you help to animation team about clothes and armors?
I dont know why but everytime they draw Turkic characters with middle east look and arabic dress
They even put CK2 indian character to Guchluk of Naiman🤭
When I see the previews and I catch that, I try to correct them (sometimes those are added after I watched them). What I'm just starting to do now is attach more of my artwork in my notes to them, and tell them to just use that as reference... In a preview I watched just yesterday, the animator had done this painting of Mamai, and made him basically a Caucasian looking guy with a red moustache. Luckily we caught that and I sent him the art I did of Mamai to use instead. That will be my strategy for solving that from now on....
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I am very glad to hear that.
No more arabic Turks and white Mongols then😌
Where are the graves of Berke and Hulagu? Are there archeologists who try to find Genghis Khan grave?
Berke is supposed to have been buried near Sarai, while Hülegü's grave is on an island in the Caspian, I think. Neither has ever been found.
Mamluks wear Kıpchak masks ?
No evidence for it, as far as I have seen. None of the Mamluk military manuals or other iconography depict them, and I have not heard of any ever being discovered in Egypt. I've actually heard a recent argument that the masks actually become more common in fourteenth century, and are very rare before that, though I've not read into that very much.
Their was a continuance in Turkic style clothing and hair styles among Mamluks well into fourteenth century, but in terms of actual equipment they seem to mostly use locally produced items- which makes sense, given that most Qichaps were sold as children and unlikely many young boys had full sets of armour with them. We would imagine that, through the nature of the reliance on Turkic troops, most of the professionally made equipment in Cairo was heavily influenced by Turkic warriors, but not necessarily Qipchap.
Given that a number of Mongol defectors joined the Mamluks over the thirteenth century, we might wonder if Mongol influenced armour had greater influence in appearances in Mamluk Egypt, than Qipchaq did. It would be interesting to research, that's for certain. Looking deeper into Mamluk equipment would be a lot of fun if I ever get time or a chance to do so.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I think clothes style of Mamluks was continuation of Seljuk-Turkmen stle which brought into egypt by Zengids-Ayyubids
But it's good to remember,Turk-Mongol clothes look mostly same as can see in Rashid-Al Din's work
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I agree that it may have been influenced by the Mongols in terms of armor.
Seljuks and Kıpchaks also used lamaller but style of armors which used by Mamluks look similar to Khitan/Jurchen/Mongol style lamaller
Mamluk supported Ilkhanid Khanate
Chad Berke vs Virgin Hulagu
@@sunionbro8806 🌝
This.
I see you in the comments of a lot of steppe related content.
The more I read about Hülegü, the less likeable he becomes. And he wasn't particularly likeable to start with.
No, quite the opposite. While Berke did little else than to complain, Hülegü carved out his personal empire. Taking what he wanted, killing who was in his way and giving no f...at all.
In war of Bagdat hulegu han have been help from Shiban Han brother of Batu Han
Why Turkmens of middle east became such deadly force against Mongol inheritor states after 14.century ?
Karakoyunlu-Akkoyunlu defeated Timurids-Jalairids and reestablished Oghuz sovereignty in middle east,Kızılbash cavarly destroyed Uzbek army and killed its military-genius founder(Sheyban Khan),Afsharids vassalised Khanate of Khiva and Bukhara.
IMO,it seem very impressive military background and gives me the impression that they were the most influential cavalry force of their time(from 15.century to end of 18.century)
I wonder your opinion
I've not studied the various Turkmen groups enough to really give a confident answer. But I remember ready how Babur talks with jealousy in his memoirs over how the Uzbeks under Shaybani were capable of much more impressive cavalry maneuvers compared to the contemporary Timurid princes (in most of Babur's writings the last Timurids appear capable of small raids and little else).
If I was to make one guess, it would be experience with large cavalry formations. The only one anyone becomes an effective cavalry army, is after extensive, extensive experiencing operating as one. Not just living on horseback (that's more important for the operational side of things) but knowing the formations, manuevers etc., and being able to carry them out, in a large body, without colliding into each other (or at least, being able to force enough control over the princes in your army to follow such an order; when each prince of the army thinks he had a total and equal right to rule, it's very difficult to get them to place nice in a command structure.
So with the later Timurids, there is an absolute failure to carry this out. Shaybani does a better job, but I think even before the battle of Merv his army suffered losses in the battles beforehand and put him in a bad position. Ismail's army capitalized on this, and used the terrain to its advantage, and his cavalry proved equal to the Uzbeks.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory What about Kara Yusuf's victories against Timurids ?
He defeated a war machine which consisted by veterans who fight from Moghulistan to Smyrna under big boss'(Timur) banner
@@earlmahmud9637 didn't he defeat armies under Temür's sons?
Mostly, the big thing to Timurid military success was Temür himself. The main arm of his army was the usual post-Mongol Empire horse archers (and troops from the Chagatai area are usually considered poorer equipped compared to western Iran/Caucasus area). It's no coincidence how quickly Timurids lost territory after Temür's death: he was very literally the only thing holding the empire together.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I mean,Yusuf came from exile and with his Turkmens just beat the hell out of Timurid armies who constantly fought in military campaigns from East Chagatai to Anatolia.
Yeah,seem Timur's absence major factor. But how the hell bunch of Turkmen nomads defeated such experienced armies and ending their dominion over middle east,this is what i'm having trouble understanding
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I am not sure about Chagatai soldiers poorer equiped.
El omar-i,traveler in 14century said Chagatai soldiers have complete equipment
Turkish name