Greetings MCM. Towards the end of the video, you wonder why the helper engine was marshaled behind the line-haul engine and used as a "puller". I believe that this has to do with the fact that train orders always refer to the line-haul engine number and train crews, especially in a meet, were expected to IDENTIFY AND CONFIRM the lead-engine number on an opposing movement as part of their authorization to proceed after a meet. This was particularly important if there were multiple sections (or extras) for a given train. The dispatcher himself had no record of the specific pusher engine being used as this was entirely left at the discretion of the local operating personnel. In those days, I believe that helper engines were not used as pusher on revenue passenger trains because of buff-load limitations on said cars. It should be noted that pusher engines were permitted on freight trains. When SP remediated the situation, I would suggest that they modified the operating procedure so that the engine number of the lead- helper had to be telegraphed to the dispatcher before a train order could be issued. Thanks for sharing. Ontario, Canada. 2021/04/09.
Thank you! Always learn something from your videos. Such a tragedy and loss of life is heartbreaking. But hopefully we learn - even corporates - and don’t repeat those same mistakes…. Thanks for your research and train experience!
Great story Mark, Thank you for the history lesson ! It does seem we haven't learnt too much ...the runaway oil train in Canada in Le Magnetic ?? a few years ago which sadly killed many people in a nightclub. There was another grain train run away , also in Canada last year, WITH the crew on board that went quiet very quickly! We had a runaway iron ore train in Western Australia ,last year, over 300 ore cars and the train was finally derailed after it reached a speed of 90kmh . ALL of these were due to human error...the grain train is .a mystery though?..will we ever learn?? Stay safe out there Sir. Cheers Gregg,
My great great grandfather, Joseph Halter, had a homestead adjacent to the Loop in those days and was employed part time as a woodcutter by Central / Southern Pacific. Halter Grade, the old name for Woodford Rd., and also the name occasionally used for the stretch of tracks near there, was named for him.
I never knew that a passenger train derailed in that area! Thanks for the video. I'm going to be coming to the area next month or in January and i would love to meet u.
If you would like more information about this train wreck, the Tehachapi Heritage League Museum on Green Street has an interesting and informative display. It is closed at the moment due to COVID, but it is a great place for local history when it reopens.
Thank you for another fascinating video, Mark. I have enjoyed all of them and learned a lot about trains and history of this area. I live above Cable and have been interested in this train wreck since reading about it at the Tehachapi Museum. I'm still a little unclear about the location of the wreck. Was it just below (towards Bakersfield) from the picnic table at Meadowbrook Park, or was it further? Thanks again!
According to my info it was at the sixth crossing of Tehachapi Creek at the left hand curve just below the Cable Crossover. Thanks for the compliment and for checking it out!
We put helpers on the rear today! Mostly due to over drawbar tonnage. But the dispatcher also prefers they be on the rear...and I agree. It's faster and more efficient use of power. Helpers should always be on the rear! Unless hazmat restrictions prevent it or the rear end is too light. I understand it may have been different for passenger trains back in the old days. Even today I believe Amtrak will only take a Locomotive motive on the point.
I like the town and the trains of Tehachapi very much. Hopefully i can visit Tehachapi again within the next 2-3 years and maybe meet you there and drink a beer together, Mark. Best regards from Germany. Werner
FYI, if you are interested, there is a new AirBnB near my home, especially for train buffs. I have only seen it online. It is right above the tracks at Cable. It has the same view as the Cable Webcam on UA-cam. Auf Wiedersehen
They put helpers on the rear because they could cut them off on the fly, without having to stop, They did not have the air cut into the helpers!!! BAD MOVE!!!
Helpers on the rear of a train could cut off on the fly or just stop pushing so much and let the train go away from the helper. This meant that the helper could stop and take a siding or return to the bottom sooner thus saving time to be able to have the track open for additional trains and more use of the helper crew. This depends on the profile and layout/length of the "hill". It is never a good idea to connect on the fly as adjusting speeds is very tricky. Cutting off on the fly can be accomplished by removing the coupler knuckle of the helper, running a line to the lift pin on the coupler of the helper so it can be lifted when uncoupling, or having the conductor or rear brakeman make the uncoupling when separating. This also means that the caboose would have a strong enough frame to take the buff of pushing, otherwise the train would need to stop to remove the helper and reattach the caboose.
If the engineer was responsible for the on time performance and handling of the train he would want to stay on the point. It might have also been related to who gets paid for what class of service. As they say- "every rule on the railroad is written in blood".
I'm not conversant with who was paid to what back then. From my research it just sounded like too many rules were broken to save time which was a big problem in those days. Thanks for checking it out!
We must've crossed paths some time in the past 25 years. I know signalman Laws and knew Boyd Thomas. You may know Danny Machan...I know you know Rusty Belmore. (RADAR RUSTY the train crews called him) he'd write us up for going 11 in a 10... So I've been told at least. Never me personally. My fist two year was MofW track mostly under Rusty. Then John Clark for @ 6 months. I loved John! Supper cool.
I knew of Boyd and Jeff but didn't know them personally. I've known Belmore since 1984 and always got along with him. He retired and moved to Oregon. A lot of the old hands called me "Magoo" but I spent most of the last 25 years up the valley. Thanks for checking it out!
Unfortunate turn of events, have to wonder why after not being able to get brakes on all cars they didn't cut loose a few and get people to the cars they could brake.
Here is the article I was thinking about it was MOPAC & not Frisco www.myleaderpaper.com/features/looking_back/looking-back-to-the-joachim-creek-train-wreck/article_07f91458-30fb-11e7-b9f3-b361c9a5b3c4.html
Greetings MCM. Towards the end of the video, you wonder why the helper engine was marshaled behind the line-haul engine and used as a "puller". I believe that this has to do with the fact that train orders always refer to the line-haul engine number and train crews, especially in a meet, were expected to IDENTIFY AND CONFIRM the lead-engine number on an opposing movement as part of their authorization to proceed after a meet. This was particularly important if there were multiple sections (or extras) for a given train. The dispatcher himself had no record of the specific pusher engine being used as this was entirely left at the discretion of the local operating personnel. In those days, I believe that helper engines were not used as pusher on revenue passenger trains because of buff-load limitations on said cars. It should be noted that pusher engines were permitted on freight trains. When SP remediated the situation, I would suggest that they modified the operating procedure so that the engine number of the lead- helper had to be telegraphed to the dispatcher before a train order could be issued. Thanks for sharing. Ontario, Canada. 2021/04/09.
Great story!
Thankss for putting this together Mark. I had heard of this incident before but never got all the details.
Thank you! Always learn something from your videos. Such a tragedy and loss of life is heartbreaking. But hopefully we learn - even corporates - and don’t repeat those same mistakes…. Thanks for your research and train experience!
Great story Mark, Thank you for the history lesson ! It does seem we haven't learnt too much ...the runaway oil train in Canada in Le Magnetic ?? a few years ago which sadly killed many people in a nightclub. There was another grain train run away , also in Canada last year, WITH the crew on board that went quiet very quickly! We had a runaway iron ore train in Western Australia ,last year, over 300 ore cars and the train was finally derailed after it reached a speed of 90kmh .
ALL of these were due to human error...the grain train is .a mystery though?..will we ever learn??
Stay safe out there Sir.
Cheers Gregg,
We haven't had one in quite awhile. I know trainmen still don't always tie trains down properly. It's crazy.
@@MarkClayMcGowan Thats human error Mark?
@@FishplateFilms definitely! Multiple human errors
My great great grandfather, Joseph Halter, had a homestead adjacent to the Loop in those days and was employed part time as a woodcutter by Central / Southern Pacific. Halter Grade, the old name for Woodford Rd., and also the name occasionally used for the stretch of tracks near there, was named for him.
Excellent story! I had no idea there had been a wreck there. Thanks!
There isn't much written about it. I thought it was a great topic for a video. Thanks for checking it out!
I never knew that a passenger train derailed in that area! Thanks for the video. I'm going to be coming to the area next month or in January and i would love to meet u.
Just let me know. Drop me an email. Motopoet59@gmail.com
@@MarkClayMcGowan ok and I meant next month or July
@@KUNYSZZ I'll be out of town July 9-12. Other than that I'll be around!
If you would like more information about this train wreck, the Tehachapi Heritage League Museum on Green Street has an interesting and informative display. It is closed at the moment due to COVID, but it is a great place for local history when it reopens.
Thank you for another fascinating video, Mark. I have enjoyed all of them and learned a lot about trains and history of this area. I live above Cable and have been interested in this train wreck since reading about it at the Tehachapi Museum. I'm still a little unclear about the location of the wreck. Was it just below (towards Bakersfield) from the picnic table at Meadowbrook Park, or was it further? Thanks again!
According to my info it was at the sixth crossing of Tehachapi Creek at the left hand curve just below the Cable Crossover.
Thanks for the compliment and for checking it out!
Thank you for telling the interesting story .
We put helpers on the rear today! Mostly due to over drawbar tonnage. But the dispatcher also prefers they be on the rear...and I agree. It's faster and more efficient use of power. Helpers should always be on the rear! Unless hazmat restrictions prevent it or the rear end is too light.
I understand it may have been different for passenger trains back in the old days. Even today I believe Amtrak will only take a Locomotive motive on the point.
I like the town and the trains of Tehachapi very much. Hopefully i can visit Tehachapi again within the next 2-3 years and maybe meet you there and drink a beer together, Mark. Best regards from Germany. Werner
Just let me know. I'd be honored to have a beer with you!
FYI, if you are interested, there is a new AirBnB near my home, especially for train buffs. I have only seen it online. It is right above the tracks at Cable. It has the same view as the Cable Webcam on UA-cam. Auf Wiedersehen
It was a very intresting story. I'm sure EVERY state has their incidents. Ill try to find one on the Frisco incident in the town I live close to.
Do you have a channel you'll share it on?
@@MarkClayMcGowan no I don't just things I hear about was part of a moddle rail road club bassed of the old Mississippi River & Bonne Terre Rail Road
enjoyed it very much.
Thanks!
Good Stuff MCM !!
Is the turntable still there?
No. It was removed, as far as I know, in the 1920s after helpers began cutting out at Summit, and were turned on the wye there.
Great Western Railway always had the assisting engine behind the train engine except when the assisting engine was buffered up in the rear.
They put helpers on the rear because they could cut them off on the fly, without having to stop, They did not have the air cut into the helpers!!! BAD MOVE!!!
Helpers on the rear of a train could cut off on the fly or just stop pushing so much and let the train go away from the helper. This meant that the helper could stop and take a siding or return to the bottom sooner thus saving time to be able to have the track open for additional trains and more use of the helper crew. This depends on the profile and layout/length of the "hill". It is never a good idea to connect on the fly as adjusting speeds is very tricky. Cutting off on the fly can be accomplished by removing the coupler knuckle of the helper, running a line to the lift pin on the coupler of the helper so it can be lifted when uncoupling, or having the conductor or rear brakeman make the uncoupling when separating. This also means that the caboose would have a strong enough frame to take the buff of pushing, otherwise the train would need to stop to remove the helper and reattach the caboose.
If the engineer was responsible for the on time performance and handling of the train he would want to stay on the point. It might have also been related to who gets paid for what class of service. As they say- "every rule on the railroad is written in blood".
I'm not conversant with who was paid to what back then. From my research it just sounded like too many rules were broken to save time which was a big problem in those days.
Thanks for checking it out!
We must've crossed paths some time in the past 25 years. I know signalman Laws and knew Boyd Thomas. You may know Danny Machan...I know you know Rusty Belmore. (RADAR RUSTY the train crews called him) he'd write us up for going 11 in a 10... So I've been told at least. Never me personally.
My fist two year was MofW track mostly under Rusty. Then John Clark for @ 6 months. I loved John! Supper cool.
I knew of Boyd and Jeff but didn't know them personally. I've known Belmore since 1984 and always got along with him. He retired and moved to Oregon.
A lot of the old hands called me "Magoo" but I spent most of the last 25 years up the valley.
Thanks for checking it out!
@@MarkClayMcGowan some called me "Scooby" S.D. Fuller what is SD stand for Scooby-Doo? That's how it started.
A sad story caused by really bad oversight of crew members and also a bad procedure of having the helper be the rear engine.
Yes. At least it created positive change.
Thanks for checking it out!
Unfortunate turn of events, have to wonder why after not being able to get brakes on all cars they didn't cut loose a few and get people to the cars they could brake.
Here is the article I was thinking about it was MOPAC & not Frisco
www.myleaderpaper.com/features/looking_back/looking-back-to-the-joachim-creek-train-wreck/article_07f91458-30fb-11e7-b9f3-b361c9a5b3c4.html
Wow! I wish I had the time to get back there and do a piece on it!
@@MarkClayMcGowan we in just Jefferson County have had SEVERAL incidents from way back when & more modern times.