I Made Mike Mentzer's Ideal Routine... Ideal.
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Jay Vincent's modified routine:
Chest:
1. Chest Press (4:05)
superset with...
2. Chest Fly (5:31)
Back:
1. Pull Over (or Pull Down) (8:52)
2. Rows (Preferable on a machine) (10:04)
Mike Mentzer's ideal routine:
Chest:
1. Pec Deck (or dumbbell flies)
superset with...
2. Incline Press
Back:
1. Close Grip Underhand Pull Downs
2. Deadlifts (or substitute for shrugs in case of lower back pain)
Thanks for doing this man!
@@JayVincentFitness 👍 thank you for making this video
Mike rutine Back- pullover machine in superseries with Close Grip Underhand Pull Downs -to finish deadlift
Why 2 sets for chest? Isn’t that too much if going to failure on 1?
Jay.... I doing in my chest -back 1) Pec Deck (pro exhaust), 2) Chest press, 3) pull down close grip or normal ,4) Row . Its ok or i am wrong ?
The reason pec dec or fly is 1st is because it's an isolation chest exercise to be followed by a compound excerise like chest press that incorporates the triceps. Back and shoulders to further fatigue the chest in superset fashion with no rest or little as possible
Mentzer suggested flyes first because then on the press, the triceps are fresh and can push the chest even further.
Also, go all the way down on the press, you're like 6 inches too high at the bottom of your rep. The stretch under load is where muscle is built
pre exhaust ?
Jay love your posts. They are clear and result producing. A short point of clarification regarding Mike Mentzer’s “Ideal Routine” it was meant for people who did not have nautilus or nautilus like equipment available. Having attended several of Mikes seminars which he co hosted with Ray and Dave Mastorakis Mike made it abundantly clear Nautilus equipment was vastly superior due to its design and structure according to Arthur Jones’ principles based on human anatomy and kinesiology. But many people simply did not have such equipment available to them. Keep up the good work. There’s a new piece of equipment in commercial gyms these days which seems to be an adjunct to productive exercise for many trainees--the mobile phone. Haha.
I find one of my biggest hang ups with HIT is that as my clients have gotten stronger, I may have fussed too hard about keeping the reps “pure” and slow. When it’s really about the change of direction. I’d back down every once in a while to try and robotically replicate the reps from previous weights but like you said, as long as you push it to failure, the speed within the rep isn’t that much of a difference maker as long as you’re not bouncing it out of the hole.
Exactly. It really doesn’t matter.
Love it, hopefully you'll be making more ideal ideal routines for the other days (shoulders+arm and Legs)
I will be doing all of his ideal routines
Mike mentzer did specific isolation exercises before the compounds to fatigue the targeted muscle. For example, on chest, he does flies before his chest to really exhaust his chest, then supersets it with some incline press. The triceps and shoulders, which aren’t fatigued, help the pecs get even more work in. His goal was to push the muscle as much as possible, and this was one of his strategies.
Also, for back, I found some old clips of him training clients, and he did lat pull overs before the close grip underhand pull down, to use the same strategy. To already push the lats as much as possible, to then go to the compound and fatigue his lats even more with the help of his biceps. Same goes for leg which he did leg extensions and leg press/squat.
I have a sensitive nervous system and low exercise tolerance. I’ve found that the HIT exercise selection, the machines used, and style of reps is absolutely the best but I do 2-3 non failure sets instead. I feel great and always have a healthy amount of muscle. One set to failure absolutely destroys me and leaves my nervous system wrecked for too long. For some it’s probably great!
I’m in the same boat. If I do more than 2 exercises then my adrenals and nervous system are fried for a few days.
Same here. 2 _3 sets almost to failure.
Some HIT-heads will admonish against this, but you are better off doing a little extra if necessary.
One Set is the GOAL, not the rule.
I do also more than 1 set because of my nervous system. But always I do the reps slowly and with perfect form. My recovery is much better with it and I'm getting stronger. It may is not "the perfect" training from a scientific perspective but it works perfectly in my situation.
@@thecrow4597 if you keep your focus on selecting the best possible exercise from The Criteria for Exercise Selection, that will ensure the exercises you do will be a bit more productive even if you don’t go FULL EFFORT (hate the term MMF. That is something that happens TO the muscle, not something you do.
Just get as close to full effort as you reasonably can. Do another set if necessary.
Pretty simple.
Man I fkn love this new format you're doing, with the revamped old/ famous legends live training , with your expert modern science applied to it, fine tuning/ updating it, it's so fluid and comprehensive at same time, and we get so much from this type of content .. more of it ! 🔥🦾🙏🏽
Thanks man
At the time Mentzer prescribed the ideal routine, he did not recommend a rep speed of 2/4 but 4/4.
Oh okay. Good to know.
I did the Ideal Routine for over a year and steadily made progress on the program. Due to boredom and burnout, I made slight adjustments like Jay recently in reversing the order in some of the exercises, changing some, and dropping the supersets. I'll see how it goes soon.
I tried the ideal routine too, but I got bored of waiting between Workouts.
You can do The Workouts every other day at first and add more rest days as you progress în weights and intensity techniques and Lear how to milk more ouț of your sets.
Oh and... You can do 2 sets if they feel gool, it won't hurt. Especially on The smaller muscles.
The thing îs that Mike M said himself that with Time you need more intensity techniques such as rest pause, static holds and drop-sets (although he didn't approve much on the latter). And what are those if not another set without the whole rest în between sets and redoing the reps he called poor stimulatively (first half of the set)?!
Thanks for your take on this, I did the ideal routine for about 6 months but ended up going back to your golden era system as I could tolerate a bit more volume. Merry Christmas, hope you have a good one 🎉
Just a comment to show appreciation.
My body blew up after UA-cam randomly recommending this channel a year or two ago!
Awesome to hear man. Are you using the Golden Era System?
My variation of the Ideal Routine:
A.
Gironda Dip
Closegrip Palms Up Pulldown
Stifflegged Deadlift
Leg Extension
Calf Raise
B.
Seated Dumbell Press
Barbell Curl
Barbell Rollover and Press
Barbell Power Shrug (they work, sue me)
Bent Laterals
Barbell Wrist Curl
C.
Barbell Neck Press (modified bench press)
One Arm Dumbell Row
Barbell Full Squat
Seated Leg Curl
Calf Raise
D.
Barbell Curl
JM Press
Seated Laterals
Barbell Power Shrug
Bent Laterals
Barbell Wrist Curl
Definitely extra focus placed on the traps and forearms, but the goal with this was to get the major muscle groups directly stimulated once every 8-10 days, and the smaller muscles getting stimulated directly every 8-10 days, with both smaller and larger muscle groups getting some level of stimulation every 4th or 5th day for hypertrophy purposes.
Workouts A and C are the most taxing so I limit it to 5 exercises - 1 set each. B and D get 6 but 7 works too if it's a smaller isolation exercise.
Every single muscle gets hit with enough direct and indirect stimulation with this routine that I think it actually could build a competitive physique. Some HIT routines are a little too abbreviated to really build a complete bodybuilding type of physique.
A couple of the exercises come from the iron guru Vince Gironda (RIP) - specifically the Barbell Neck Press, Gironda Dip, and Barbell Rollover and Press. The first two are the best chest exercises I have ever tried when performed "correctly". Some might poo poo the neck press, but at 5'9" and 225lbs, I am currently using 165lbs on it when I could bench press far more in typical fashion. The Barbell Rollover and Press acts as both a serious tricep exercise - hitting all three heads of the tricep, but also as a pullover for the lats as well. Flyes are completely unnecessary as the Gironda Dips and Barbell Neck Press offer more than enough pec stimulation when performed correctly.
I've tried to come up with a better, more complete yet basic routine than this, but haven't succeeded. Imo it doesn't get much better than this for this type of routine.
Interesting template, thank you for sharing!
How has this routine been working for you? You train once every 5 days I take it?
@Traps510 I train once every 4th and 5th day - alternating between the two. 5 days before a Squat or deadlift containing workout.
Progress has been excellent. I'm almost 45 and after almost 4 months back in the gym my numbers and muscle growth are doing very well, especially considering the first 3 weeks or so I was pretty easy on the weight increases. Can't push full out after a long time off like I used to in my 20's and 30's.
The template is tailored specifically to my recovery needs. In the past a twice weekly workout schedule with A and B routine would yield rapid increases in strength and size. Still will, but will begin to stall after 8-10 weeks if additional rest days aren't added.
The maximum I would go to is either a 4 workout split with 5 days between workouts - at which point I would probably reduce down to an A and B split with 8-10 days between workouts. That would be on the extreme side. It's mostly the heavy compound lifts that cause me to require significant rest time. The shoulder and arms workouts allow the smaller muscles more frequency without taxing the larger too much.
I actually really like these modifications. I enjoyed the Heavy Duty II routine, but I definitely like this version. I think doing antagonistic supersets where you’d alternate chest and back would be fantastic here as well.
Oh yeah man that’s a good point! You could do it that way too. In fact, I might try that next. Excellent recommendation
Thanks, great video. You should mate more videos like this one, but to show different splits for the rest muscles of the body.
Will do!
@jay are you gonna do the other workout days of this program? Arm, legs etc
Yes
I love supersets but the issue I run into is that my gyms are all too crowded and I can never get the equipment I need back to back.
Definitely an issue for a lot of busy gyms. Try to find one that isn’t a franchise and family owned
Man I got sick for a whole week had to take over 7 days off and came back and was noticeably stronger using the GES, I’m genuinely surprised, and this was with a hangover too.
Hahaha that's impressive 👏 how long have you been using Golden Era?
@ been on it for 18 weeks now. Been on a very slight bulk and it’s been working very well for not just my results but my schedule too.
Jay I like it! I hardly ever do that reverse fly. I’m definitely going to work that one in plus try the chest superset. Thanks
I like the reverse fly because it’s a good way to work the scapular retractor muscles without the biceps involved. Definitely worth a try
I just do not see how a PT could make me train more intensely. I push until I can no longer move the bar, no matter how hard I try. It is 100%. It can't be more. And look at the vids of Arthur Jones training Boyer Coe, for example. When he tries to push Coe to get another rep, Coe simply starts cheating in order to make the extra reps. He could probably train just as intensely, with perfect form, on his own.
You might think that… but You should try training with an instructor. They’ll push you way harder. Trust me.
Yes, I absolutely agree 👍 If you train to failure, then you definitely don't need anybody else!
Have you ever tried though? When you’re doing this method at its purest, you need someone to give you that tiny bit of help and the mental cues help.
I used to think training on your own you could get the same results too. But once training with trainers, I realize trainers could push me further for whatever reason. You know how sometimes you'll get a better workout on your own on some days instead of other days? Well, generally, with a good trainer, you'll get those best workouts almost every time. Not saying you can't get great results on your own but with a trainer I learned the hard way could definitely push myself further. Example a trainer can help you move the bar just that little bit to get past sticking points to then push yourself further. This fact alone is a bit of a game changer. Even to get a friend or family member that you can educate into showing them how to just give a little help to get you past sticking points on the last few reps can make you push a little further than you would if you didn't have the help. Another great trick is, if doing a static hold on a negative having an assistance apply a little bit of pressure as you're trying to hold back on the negative. These two small things alone can make each exercise push you further than you could ever do by yourself. I trained for over 20 years and not until I actually trained with Jay. Did I see the difference of what training with a trainer can do. Don't knock it until you've tried it. One of the key principles of exercise is that the human body will trick itself to try to save energy, etc. When you're on your own, there's no one else to measure up to so it's just you against yourself. But yourself can fool yourself. my overall personal experience, you can still get great results on your own, but it will take a little longer than if your training with a partner who knows what they're doing. Watch the Dorian Yates older videos as well to get another idea of all of this.
Doing squats and deadlifts to failure without someone else to motivate you, is very difficult to do.
The first time doing a new exercise, I would not go to failure. Supersetting a new exercise with another - the first time will take longer than expected to recover if not conditioned to it unless using HRT. If natural, use the first workout or two with new exercises to acclimate without supersetting. Pair up the 2 in a superset 3rd time around with a short rest period and go to failure.
hello.thanks for all.how many rest day after that?
I'mma definitely try it next Chest/Back session
I really liked it. Might stick with this for a while actually.
@@JayVincentFitnessnoted. I just tried it today and my chest/Back is fried.
Jay, could you do a series on mobility & getting older, and the best exercises that will help folks that are in mobility decline due to edging. Thanks & Merry Christmas to you & your family bye y'all 🎅
I’m not well read on mobility so I wouldn’t feel comfortable talking deeply about it. I’ve found when my older clients got stronger, their mobility drastically improved
Jay, I like that you said the goal is 1 set, but it's not universal law. Most people don't know how to push to true failure but honesty the research shows lifting haeavy enough you don't need total failure you can get away with 2 RIR and studies show that 5 sets can get the job done for Hypertrophy even as low as 3 sets as well. Great video, I always learn something new. Keep up the excellent work.
He said it, you could do 2 sets if you need to.
It's true, you don't need to go to failure if the intensity is high from the beginning (heavy loads), and it will have its benefits too.
However, if you understand the concept of HIT you will want to stick around these , why?
Because training becomes more efficient over time, and that reduction in volume, load and frequency keeps you away from joint injuries.
Right. It should be the goal. Not the cookie cutter prescription.
@@JDEG100 all the weight (resistance) does is automatically set the level of effort.
A weight that is too heavy, you will be testing or demonstrating strength, mostly.
Maximum Effort (fresh effort) is for strength testing, Full Effort (contracting as hard as possible, just before MMF), in a fatigued state, is safer.
‘Heavy’ isn’t necessarily. Any weight at all isn’t necessary.
All the weight does is automatically set the level of effort.
It’s about the effort. Effort over time.
Not the weight.
@@exercisethoughtsanddiscussions
I understand your point and share it in part. But I think there may be advantages if the intensity or effort is high from the first rep.
Let me develop the idea, when you work with "heavy weights" the recruitment is complete from the first rep and the mechanical tension is high due to the force-velocity curve, then you are generating an adequate stimulus without the accumulation of nervous and peripheral fatigue.
The accumulation of metabolites affects your perception of effort, limiting MUR (motor unit recruitment).
Of course the best way to obtain this is with motorized machines, which allow you to do it quite safely.
@ your reply indicates you didn’t understand my point, which means I didn’t make it clear.
I will think on how to explain it better. 🤔🤔🤔🤓
Great, so this is the opposite of Mentzer. Doing the compound movement first. So is this still considered pre exhaust or just a super set?
What brand chest incline is that? Looks "Strive"-like. Thanks!
Damn, i need to try this one. The chenges made sense to me. It always made me wonder why not do the compound exercises first and than finish with the isolation to "kill " the target muscle
because on chest press movements the triceps will fail before the chest has, so doing flies before the presses then the chest has already hit failure so going straight to presses after will have the triceps assist in the chest going beyond failure then also the triceps will fail
Yeah man. I definitely believe these slight modifications make this way better. I enjoyed this workout.
@@kyleclark2570 Not really. There is no scientific study that looks at the need for fiber when you are training to failure. In fact, if you do an isolation exercise like the Flyes and then a bench press, the so-called assistent or secundary muscles will be even more balanced because the "main muscle" is already fatigued.
@@JayVincentFitness Love the content, but especially the workout videos. Hope there is more ti come!
@@AndreLeitedaSilvaGaldino exactly what i was saying ? i also didnt bring up fiber are u talking about the non essential nutrient?
Jay would you say that plate loaded machines such as hammerstrength are more ideal for a public/home gym and less for a client centered personal training studio where pin loaded may be more ideal? Very good exercise demos.
From an Exercise Instructor or Personal Trainer’s perspective, I’d MUCH rather have selectorized equipment. I can keep my focus on my clients more.
Plate loaded machines take up way more space so probably not
What about Snatch Grip Rack pulls from the knee instead of Deadlifts, since it does stress the upper back to an extent?
Would that exercise matchup with The Criteria for Exercise Selection, in HIT?
those are some nice machines
Yes they are!
Have you trained or met with Markus Reinhardt
Have you tried DC training? It’s another HIT program.
Make one for the other workouts jay
In the works 💪
Doing only a row can work good the rear delts?
It sure can. But it wouldn’t kill ya to throw in a reverse fly if you feel like it
This reminds me of that one kid with the small arms telling Lee priest how to work out his arms like bro I don’t think he needs your help Mike Mentzer got a lot right and wrong but even modern day science goes against the “mods” you’re making I’ll go with Mentzer still 😂 try putting “ideal for me” that would be better and emphasis the stretch never the contraction and don’t overlook the eccentric and time under tension generally good for everyone but still different for EVERY INDIVIDUAL!
Okay
Isn't the rear delt fly a bit redundant?
Could you make a bodyweight version of this? I train with gymnastic rings. So ring dips followed by ring flys or pushups. Chinups followed bij ring rows... legs i do weights. Deadlift and splitsquats. And handstand pushups or pike pushups for shoulder's
As a former Internationally qualified competitive gymnast, I do NOT recommend using rings for training. Strength sequence displays on rings are fun, build confidence, and are impressive to watch, but rings as a tool to build strength have TOO MANY COMPROMISES.
With HIT, you want to ‘clear a path to full effort’. Balance is a compromise to full effort. Independent movement is a compromise. Not-ideal body positions to effectively train the muscle according to function is a compromise.
You do NOT want to INTRODUCE compromises to full effort. You want to eliminate them, if possible.
@exercisethoughtsanddiscussions thanks for your reaction. But the way you dicribe it is not how i use rings. Don't know were your assumption came from? Use for dips/rows/Ringflys. More like a trx Jay shows in his bodyweight workouts. Can add weight with a belt. And doing it slow. No show.
@ got it.
Those are useful exercises with Still Rings, when the compromise of balance is considered and accounted for.
I still miss being able to do an Azarian roll to cross. 😬
I have a HIT home workout program that shows a lot of body weight exercise you can do with minimal equipment
@ … and I can recommend that home training system. 👍👍👍💪
Chest and back combined on the same day?
Apparently. That’s the way Mike did it
3:13 so Jay do you agree with X3 bands providing that exact resistance being lighter at the bottom and higher in the extended position which definitely makes sense from a biomechanics standpoint?
put a yoga block right below the shoulder blades or a half medicine ball behind you while doing peck fly's for that extra deep stretch of the pecs. it will F you up, the pump is unreal.
13:21 - 👍👍👍 One set is the GOAL, not the rule.
How do you know one set did job?
@ what would you say is the determining factor? How would you test for that?
@@exercisethoughtsanddiscussions i not a big fan of feelings and emotions as the factor. In case you may not reached true concentric failures, would you do a rest pause(I short break like 15-20 secs with no chenge in the load, a drop set or just take 2-3 minutes and than perform a "second set"?
@ set enhancers and set extensions are ‘Load Based’ thinking. All the load does is automatically set the level of effort.
IMO, if you’re not sure, go back and attempt a second, normally performed set.
The normally performed set, including focus on careful turnarounds, is the most advanced training technique we have, so far.
Set extenders and set enhancers are not effort focused.
It’s ALL about ACHIEVING full effort, not extending or enhancing it.
@@exercisethoughtsanddiscussions Would you mind explaining why the rest-pause (When you take a short rest and then do as many reps as you can) is a load-based approach, but you also say that if one set was full effort, do another set? (In Both cases, you still need to perform quality reps within the cadence of your choosing. I try to take 3-4 seconds on the concentric and 4-6 seconds on the eccentric.However, i focus more on the turnarounds taht are the hardest part of any moviment when performed with control)
IN the case of a second set, How much rest would you need to take before doing another set if you feel the first one wasn't good enough? (You would follow the general recommendation of 2-3 minute rests.)
Thank you!
Jay, Mike liked to pre exhaust the chest without fatiguing the triceps. That is why he started with the fly to preserve the triceps from the pushing exercise. I tried it on a client this morning, I was probably putting words in his mouth, but he said he felt his chest more when we got to the chest press. Love your stuff and can't wait for your invention.
I find that the fly (unless it’s loaded thru your elbows like the nautilus once) is too rough on the biceps tendon if it’s done first because you need to use a heck of a lot of weight
@@JayVincentFitness that is a fantastic point
I think there's still no proper scientific framework for effective excercise. If we want to come up with a proper theory of efficient excercise we must first answer these questions:
1. How much does it take for a muscle to recover from 1 set to failure?
2. How much does it take for a muscle to recover from 1 set to 1-2RIR?
3. If a set to failure generates 100 units of stimulus, how much does a set to 1-2 RIR generate?
4. If a set to failure generates 100 units of fatigue, how much does a set to 1-2 RIR generate?
5. How long do joints, ligaments, tendons take to recover after failure versus 1-2 RIR?
Once we have answers to these questions, we can adjust each variable-stimulus, fatigue, and recovery-to create an optimal exercise framework that maximizes results while minimizing unnecessary stress and risk of injury.
The answers to these questions would also vary on the individual
@JayVincentFitness that's true but it is still possible to at least come up with general guidelines and exacy scientific principles since all humans are physiologically similiar.
This has nothing to do with Mentzer. It's just a different routine. Nothing wrong with that, but that's what it is
Okay
@@AlexLekas_TakeOne he applied the same principles, dont matter wich exercise you do
awesome Jay! Annoying monkey rap in the background shieeet
Isn't that the other way around, stronger at the bottom, weaker at the top.
Nope. Muscles produce less force in a stretched position
gotta turn up your mic gain or raise the volume in your editing software
The music in that gym is just insanely loud sometimes. I apologize for that
So is this worth 3 or 4 more pounds of muscle? 😉
Not bad, but you dance a lot. Keep your feet grounded. Also, you developed quite a belly. GH or insulin?
Neither lol I’m not a pro bodybuilder. I’ve always had a wider midsection.
In his Heavy Duty 2 routines Menzter never recommended the 2 -1- 4 cadence. The Heavy Duty 2 cadence is 4 -1 -4.''Muscles in Minutes ''is not a book by Mike,.It is a book after his death.
Mike's recommend cadence in his last 3 books is 4 sec up 4 sec down with 2-3sec if there is resistance in the contracted positions (top of leg extensions, laterals etc...)
And muscle in minutes was written by Mike, released 2000. The book the wisdom of Mike mentzer was written by John Little 2005. High intensity training the Mike mentzer way, written by Mike Mentzer and john Little was released in 2003 after his passing.
First off, that was just one day out of 4 of Mike's routine. That wasn't even the latest version of his routine. Second, there's a reason Mike put the flys before the incline press. Listen to Mike on why. Third, Mike includes pull over in his latest version and supersets into palm up close grip pulldown. Again, good reasoning on this, listen to Mike as to why. Mike also gives alternatives, so you aren't stuck to doing one specific exercise all the time, every time. So you can still do a row instead of the close grip pull down, but its not optimal for building pure muscle overall. Four, your supersets have way too much time in between. There is a reason they are called supersets. You want as little time as possible in between them. Five, it doesn't necessarily matter which day you do the deadlift. Mike does it on that day because of the structure of the other days he has you doing work. Also, it works the whole backside of the body, and I would say the lower back a LOT. So its actually good to put on the back day. Six, Mike has reverse flys on shoulder and arm day, so that's already covered.
After all this, I believe Mike's routine is still WAY better.
Gee thanks for educating us
Okay. You’re right. I should delete the video. My bad.
I've been training for 45 years and 1 set to failure has never worked for me. I was constantly overtrained and tired. My nervous system was overstimulated. Since then I have been training several sets for each muscle, with 1 to 2 reps in the tank. From then on I felt full of energy and grew enormously. With Mentzer 1 sentence hit until failure, I never grew.
Everyone is different. This is how I felt doing multiple sets 4-6 days a week. I wasn’t getting any bigger and I was plateauing. And switching to Mentzer’s 1 high intensity set to failure has re-energized me because I take more rest days now. I usually rest 2-3 days between workouts and on my rest days I just walk or do foam rolling. My energy feels a lot better, and I don’t feel nearly as brain fogged and drained as I did lifting almost everyday in bro splits or push pull, legs.
It can lead to over training depending on how much you're doing and how frequently.
No you didnt. Study Mentzer more influencer
Haha I've owned and operated 2 HIT studios and trained people in person for years. I've been at this for over a decade. Influencers wish they could.
Dont see a good stretch on the incline chest press. Looks more like half reps. Bad machine.
You don’t need or want a deep stretch on an exercise. There’s no benefit
@ all the research shows something different.
Your physique is lacking everywhere. This style of training is not benefiting you
Better than yours will ever be. Ever see my muscle tech ads in the magazine? I got paid for my physique.
@ haha you keep on deleting my comment, so sad
@@JayVincentFitness
Don't even reply to that trolling fool brother. Your physique is insane. Love your channel 💪
disappointed in you here
Why you are, he just modified to better
I'm sure Jay is all broken up about it. 🙄
I’m not sure what you’re disappointed in but thanks for the comment
I’m disappointed in the lack of clarity in this disappointment.
Are you disappointed in my disappointment of your disappointment?
@@ArturoGarciaAlmaraz Actually its much worse. There's a reason Mike did what he did. Jay doesn't get that.