Doctor Who: Hell Bent - The Final Rant
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- Опубліковано 5 січ 2021
- Here we are. One final time. I've officially dedicated more videos to this one episode of Doctor Who than to anything I actually enjoy. This was it's last chance. I went through the entire rewatch of Series 9, keeping an eye on Peter Capaldi's 12th Doctor and Jenna Coleman's Clara Oswald. Watching showrunner Steven Moffat lay the groundwork for what was coming. I tried. I really really really really really tried to meet this thing on its own terms. To see if, knowing what was coming, it was at all possible for me to find the value in this that some others do. Did I find any? Well...
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Apologies for the white noise hum on the audio. My good mic screwed up and I was stuck with the onboard mic from the camera. I wasn't prepared to re-shoot this.
I, for one, don't mind. Love this vid!
It make me ok and lower th expectations, and the timeless children actually ok. And that it was mofat actually screwing up royally. And moffat evn had good ideas and just had to put them all in there, instread of the docto on a sel discovery, with the timelords next season. Any yes moffat did screw over his own set up. At least chibnall , well if moffat does this mess to waste the timelords, at least the timeless children uses galifrey and its impact. if not great, but it uses it.
And i would be so fun mentioning the doctor and the hybrid in timeless children, missed opportunity.
But this episode had so much potential him letting clara go for good. Instead its pure out of character madness.
Lol I did not notice it C:
Johnathan Pryce is the actor who plays Rassilon in this episode
@@maldon3659 um no. No he is not.
“I’m not gonna get shouty”
20 minutes later
“I LIED”
20:48
Omg does anybody know how to make a gif bc I NEED A GIF OF THAT EXACT MOMENT ASAP
"First of all, it's a desert. No one is farming anything"
*Luke Skywalker has entered the chat*
He farmed moisture.
This had a barn. Like... for livestock and crops.
@@dante6985 How do you farm moisture on a desert?
@@Silverwind87 because nobody else has it in the desert. If you figure out how, you can profit
@@dante6985it’s clearly a humidity barn
Series 9: *releases strong episodes and the incredible Heaven Sent*
Also Series 9: *releases Hell Bent*
CoG: THE COUNCILLOR IS NO LONGER HERE, YOU ARE STUCK WITH ME!
Hahaha
YOU'LL FIND THIS IS A VERY SMALL FANDOM WHEN I'M RANTING ABOUT YOU
IMHO, Hell Bent should have just been The Doctor returning to Gallifrey and the aftermath as his time as The War Doctor and main enemy of the store being Rassilion. That would have been more than enough for a 45 min story
That would have been GREAT, frankly. Because the Clara piece of the ending already got dealt with in the two preceding episodes. Now he's worked through his grief and is ready to confront his own history and what the Time Lords did to him in the Confession Dial.
@Lone Wolf Yes, you're right.
@Najawin - There arguably wasn't a story arc set up at all. There were character arcs for the Doctor and Clara. But all we got for an arc of actual story was dropping a word/concept. As if simply repeating Bad Wolf, Vote Saxon, or The Hybrid actually tells us anything besides functioning as cynical bait. (hint: if an episode doesn't explain WHY Murmured McGuffin matters - it doesn't.)
@Najawin Thank you. Hell Bent sure as hell ain't perfect, but if you're complaining because it doesn't deliver enough Time Lord, I frankly have trouble trusting your opinion. Time Lord episodes, especially in the classic years, were typically boring, confusing, or both. I'll grant there's a couple of good ones in the modern era, but usually that's precisely because the Time Lords aren't the central or important element of the story.
Yes absolutely and NOW I wanna watch that episode
"Have you watched it recently? WHY?!" Ok not gonna lie that made me laugh way louder than I was expecting.
Me too! 🤣
I was expecting it after reading this and I still snickered a bit :)
It could have been an amazing story if they’d flipped the episodes, had Clara die in Face The Raven, then have him hot foot it to Gallifrey to try and save her, succeed but with a big sad “we can’t travel together” ending like he does in Hell Bent, then go into the confession dial to face his grief like in Heaven Sent. Then at the end, the wall could break to reveal him at the TARDIS, and also at the singing towers, where he realised he needs to finish his story with River Song before he loses the chance to say goodbye to her properly, leading into The Husbands Of River Song
What and idea, I love this!
So I am, in fact, one of those weirdos who happens to enjoy Hell Bent. Although I don't think you necessarily touched on it in this video, I've seen a lot of people complain that Hell Bent ruins Clara's arc because it removes the consequences of her acting like the Doctor, and I can see why bringing her back to life wouldn't work based on that interpretation, but I've always seen this as more of a coming-of-age story than a death story for Clara. The relationship between 12 and Clara feels very master/apprentice or father/daughter to me, and I think that Clara functionally regenerating (except without the appearance/personality change) and getting a TARDIS and companion pays that off really well. She's now effectively what she put so much energy into trying to imitate. I recognize though that that certainly doesn't negate most of the problems you bring up in this video. I will point out that while the Doctor doesn't literally stand in the smoking ruins of Gallifrey this episode, he does kinda tear the government apart, so that could've been what the Hybrid prophecy was talking about. Or, if you want a more literal interpretation, I think it's implied that the time bubble at the end of the universe where he meets Ashildr is located on what used to be Gallifrey, so he stands in its ruins then, even though he didn't cause them.
I dont think the Doctor necessarily values Clara more than the other companions, but that he's tired of following his own rules about things like that, foreshadowed earlier in the series with the girl he made immortal.
That's a really good reading i like that a lot, makes sense
i thought we all were on the same page with this, especially when the doctor himself is saying "i broke my own rules, i BECAME the hybrid"
See, that's what happens when he travels alone for too long. Earlier he said, people like him need the mayflies.
One of the only times Clara was more sensible than the Doctor
Regeneration feels like dying the doctor has previously said then callously shoots dead the general
Who prompts regenerates into....a nightmare for the Proud Boy Whovians.
There's a throughline from Heaven Sent to Hell Bent. At the beginning of Heaven Sent the Doctor says to his mysterious captors "If you were any part of killing her and you are not afraid then you understand nothing at all". It was clear from the very beginning that much of his determination to escape was driven by his feelings for Clara. First by vengeance then, as he worked out what was happening, by hope.
Absolutely. I think a lot of people came up with their own idea for what happened in the episode (which is fine) but then got mad because the next episode didn't conform the story to the version they had dreamed up. Which - obviously - it was never going to be able to do.
"Regeneration?"
"10th* *shoots him*
Does the Doctor not remember how whiny he was in his 10th body about regenerating??
Technically 12th body...he was whiny because he knew this was his last regeneration (at least, in my headcanon)
@@waz207 Agreed but also that he had only recently got back to being himself, after the whole Time Lord Victorious thing.
@Dan Hayward How one Doctor reacts is not always the same as how another Doctor reacts.
Based on the 10th doctor's recent struggles with his own ego and the promise that the Valeyard would take place between his 12th and final regeneration, he might have been worried that the Valeyard would be the next form he took
@@kaicreech7336 that actually makes a lot of sense! I’ll add that to the headcanon for 10!
Even 12th himself got stuck up about Regeneration when it was his turn
I'm so gutted the timelords are gone again after this mediocre return.
Me too between this and the Timeless children I honestly think it lessens everything the 50th anniversary did. All this build up all this pain and against all odds we bring Gallifrey back...only to shove all the story threads and characters into a corner and then burn the place to the ground again WHY!?
Instead of doing literally anything with the timelords, they killed them. Again. What was the point of that?
@@nico2605 Schrodinger's Time Lords, from here on in they will be both dead and alive, going from one to the other, never getting used in a meaningful way before they switch back to the other state.
Tbh I'm pretty pissed about it, complete wasted opportunity thrown directly into the trash as soon as it was introduced
If I’m honest, although i did think there were plenty of missed opportunities in this episode, I still don’t really find it as bad as some people do, but i can understand why its reputation isn’t exactly Amazing
Man, I'm the same! I really don't hate this thing but I do think that it glazed over so many possibilities and was awfully rushed.... not that that surprises me at this point...
I completely agree!
I feel the same way. I actually really liked it on first viewing. I also actually haven't liked it *quite* as much since, I've got a few issues with it myself I noticed on rewatch. But I do think it gets unfairly maligned because it was coming off of the stellar Heaven Sent. I also feel like a lot of people wanted a Time Lord episode and were mad that they got a Clara episode instead. I don't know why in anyone's right mind they would want a "Time Lord" episode as they are (with very few exceptions) typically boring and/or confusing (hell that's why RTD created the Time War backstory). As for Clara, why wouldn't it make sense that he would care more about her (or any companion) then he ever did for the Time Lords? Did people completely blank out the End of Time in their trauma over losing David Tennant?
HOW TO FIX HELL BENT (without throwing it out and starting again)
Start the episode exactly the same but instead of the actual Clara in the diner, it’s one of her splinters from the Name of the Doctor. He starts to tell the story of Clara.
Instead of being on Gallifrey, the Doctor, having broken free of his confession dial, seeks out the time scoop (which has been held by some other entity following Gallifrey’s supposed destruction... let’s say for this it’s the Time Agents) to take Clara from the point of her death.
He acquires the scoop and the episode pretty much plays out as is but with Time Lords swapped for Time Agents and references corrected accordingly. Replace the General with Ashildr... or hell... even Jack Harkness!
Then when we get to the scene in the retro TARDIS, but have it in the normal TARDIS. Instead of the memory wipe though, Clara chooses of her own accord to go back and face the raven. She tells the doctor that our actions have consequences, this is something that was destined to happen. But all of us live forever through our stories.
After much tooing and throwing, Clara gets her way and meets her fate. The Doctor, still heartbroken, hears Clara’s final words “we live forever through our stories”. He then seeks out one of Clara’s splinters and tells her story. The Doctor helps Clara’s memory live on while getting the one thing anyone who’s lost anyone wants, one last conversation with that person. The Doctor, accepting his loss heads back to the TARDIS, now in his new normal and ready to heal.
This then keeps the theme of recovering from grief set up in Heaven Sent, while not impacting her poetic death in Face the Raven. It’s not perfect but uses the core components in the actual episode and I think fits in better with what came before
If you're dealing with the Time Agents you could actually involve Jack from before he even met the Doctor (as long as you're sure he doesn't fully understand who he's dealing with or their name).
@@CouncilofGeeks good idea, let’s not forget that Jack had his memories stolen from the Time Agents so it could fit within that period
@@Sunnucksboi Ooooh! Good point.
Interesting idea, I definitely prefer it to what we got...how would you explain the Hybrid arc?
@@bwmanhath3770 I suppose if we want to lean into the whole grief thing, the Hybrid could be an analogy for who you are after loss. You’re still the same but also different. A Hybrid.
Maybe that’s clutching at straws! 😂
“She fell where she stood and it was beautiful” - Ashildr, Hell Bent
“Where I stand is where I fall” - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls
Not that it was a great episode in itself, but Hell Bent was a pivotal moment for 12, allowing him to become the Doctor we love in Series 10.
The biggest issue I have with Heaven Sent into Hell Bent was that we get closure the doctor does not. Yes the Doctor spent billions of years in the confession dial. But that last cycle was a few hours maybe. So for him the doctor its been maybe half a day since he watched Clara die. That is his personal experience, this is his grief being depicted in another way. Yes we the viewer saw him metaphorically working through the process of grief. But The Doctor did not remember every single one of those times he didn't have the experience of billions of years of grieving and forcing himself to go on. Every doctor save the last one, died hours after their best friend died just to give themselves more time.
I think you are right the reading of it is grieving but its not the Doctor grieving in the way you think. The episode was for US the viewer to grieve along with the doctor. Hell Bent is still for that specific doctor who hours early stepped out of the pod having just left Clara to die. I believe 100% that he would do ANYTHING given the option to save her.
If they couldn't pull her from that split second in time I think he would have moved on. But then they gave him that sliver of a chance.
I lost my sister a few years ago, I grieved and I have begun healing. And if someone today after 4 years of her being gone said "I can pull here a second before her death so you could speak with her" I would take that deal regardless of any and all consequences because grief is healing, its never really fully done. I am still grieving my grandparents when I was a kid because there is still that love there, that wish that they could be here. So when they present the Doctor the option to see and hear the person he just lost, from his perspective timeline, of course he is gonna take it. That is honestly the doctor as his most Human.
you worded this very well
I always saw it as the Doctor remembering all of the times in the dial, and he knows who put him in it and who is responsible for Clara’s death, Rassilon, and he already hates him for all the Time War crap, so why wouldn’t he go through all of Hell Bent to save Clara? That’s his best friend, and he said it earlier this season, he’s tired of losing people, especially his friends
I didn’t realise that. I suppose he worked out that it was him, saw the evidence (the skull, shovel, writing, stars etc) but I would have it that when he left through the portal all the memories come back. This makes his actions more ‘reasonable’ or digestible his grief is fresh which does undo the whole journey he takes.
I feel like Moffat brought Gallifrey back because he wanted the big emotional moment of the Doctor getting Gallifrey back but there's nothing he particularly wanted to *do* with Gallifrey. The Doctor's yearning for Gallifrey is the point in and of itself. The planet itself being available to show up in stories undermine that. Someone recently described Gallifrey as "The Doctor's Krypton" and I think that's pretty spot on.
IMO this episode is in part Moffat deliberately burning the Doctor's ties with Gallifrey so he has no excuse to ever go back there again.
Yeah, you completely missed the point of Heaven Sent. It's about Grief and the bad parts of grief and allowing it to take you over. His denial is the reason he does what he does. He literally kills himself millions, if not, billions of times. He doesn't overcome anything, he literally does the same thing over and over and over again. The way he handles his grief in Hevean Sent, to me at least, was clearly not meant to be depicted as "healthy." I think the most obvious metaphor is the veil being his grief, and instead of directly confronting it, he does whatever he can to avoid it until it destroys him, over and over and over again. When he get's out, he hasn't overcome it, it's simply another way to further deny it.
Agree. Also after his friend got killed and he was tourtured for billions of years in a time loop how realistic it would be to him not loosing his sh***t against the timelords.
Clara almost liturally said the same thing to him what he halucinated just in person. It was a litural what would Clara say if she saw what have you become moment.
In Heaven sent we got denying and a little bit of the amger. In hell bent he we got his full rage, the Doctor trying to bargaining with the Universe itself.
Him breaking like this wasn't unwarranted. It had been coming from lightyears away. The hybrid is just another incarnation of Timelord Victorious.
And we know only his companions can stop him from becaming this version of himself.
Him needing to liturally go to the end of the world to say a final goodbie to his best friend to get on track again and being the Doctor is the most DoctorWhoish concept ever.
Him just eating mom's potato soup with the village, say goodbye and go home would be the incomplete version of the story.
The Doctor is 2 millenial old. He lost more than a human being can meet. But yet he hadn't ever release all of his hatred. And he hadn't learned yet that the universe not only not bargaining but it shouldn't be. Nature should be respected. Witch was a reccuring theme. So many villian wanted to make something great but end up with a monstrosity bc they tried to colonise nature.
IMO it's set on Gallifrey for a couple of reasons. One is plot-based: The Time Lords are amongst very few people in the known universe with the power to save Clara. The other is theme-based: Like you said, he's been desperately searching for Gallifrey for seasons. That he would sacrifice that to save Clara just serves to emphasise how obsessed he is.
A friend of mine, and the biggest DW expert I know, once said that the Hybrid does 'stand in the ruins of Gallifrey', because that's where the Doctor meets and chats to Me just before the mindwipe. Although even that interpretation still doesn't go definitive on the Hybrid answer as all three of them are technically there and standing up at least some of the time.
The Hybrid answer to what? What was the question?
That's true I didn't think of that before
I love seeing a Hufflepuff go bad. One of my favorite quotes is "There are 3 things every wise man fears: a night with no moon, the sea in a storm, and the anger of a gentle man." And giving Capaldi his "Time Lord Victorious" moment is cool. But you're right, the biggest problem is that it comes after his grief is settled.
So switch it. Make "Hell Bent" first. The Doctor is so consumed with grief that he is bending time and the universe itself to his whim to bring back Clara. Play it out exactly the same, including forgetting Clara. But then he's locked in the confession dial, drawn in by his guilt and unfulfilled grief. And now the completion of the episode is him finally coming to terms with his grief. He emerges remembering Clara, but able to let her go. Anger in Hell Bent to acceptance in Heaven Sent. Even the titles suggest it should be the other way around - emerging from Hell to reach Heaven.
Wait you think 12 is a Hufflepuff???? (I'm a hufflepuff so I wanna hear this lol this comment got me excited at the idea)
This was the episode that put me off Doctor Who for about 5 years. I recently watched Series 10 for the first time and I was very pleasantly surprised. Bill Potts is the perfect companion for the 12th Doctor.
I think you're forgetting that the Doctor is only a few weeks older than when he saw Clara die. He is a perfect copy of himself as he first arrived through the teleport. He knows intellectually that he's spent an eternity escaping, but this version is only a few weeks older than when he arrived in the dial. This is a Doctor who has never been confronted with the eternal cycle of futile effort and he is still freshly angry and guilty over losing Clara.
He knows he's the only reason Gallifrey survived at all and he's just been betrayed. In this context first seeing who will stand with him explains his passive aggression and his own subsequent betrayal of Gallifrey is explained by his probable contempt for everyone who didn't previously constrain Rasilon.
Hybrid lore is easily explained away; all the prophesy stuff we see being spewed out in The End of Time parts 1 & 2 (they have a full time Seer for goodness sake), the Doctor even interrogates the commander about them in this episode in case we've missed the point.
We also find out very few Gallifreyans are Time Lords (the .01%?) so it's hard to sympathise when the Doctor cuts loose.
I've actually grown more fond of the episode, but I see it in the context of a much deeper story arc. It works for me, although it's following on from the greatest episode ever made, so anything pales in comparison.
I disagree with that first point. In heaven sent, when the doctor finally realised what's going on he says "that's when I remember, always exactly then". Key word there is "remember", not realise, remember. This makes it very clear to me that He does, somehow, have a memory of all the cycles he went through in heaven sent and that he has experinced that cycle of futility.
@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 The short answer to that, is that then the episode makes no sense. The longer answer is that he now knows that many of the clues within the dial were left by him, but he only comes to that conclusion staring at the wall in room 12, as he remembers the fable of the little bird. If he truly had an actual memory of his previous cycles he would face that wall armed with the garden spade!
@@alanbeaumont4848 he says "thats when i remember, always exactly then" when he reaches the wall. im not arguing he knows everything from the moment he steps out the teleporter, he remembers when he reaches the wall and that cool camera zoom thing (cant remember what the technique is called) happens. until then he is clueless, so he doesent yet have the memories necessary to know he would be better off with the spade, and his memories only return each time he reaches the wall.
@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 The 'I' he is referring to is all the 'I's he has previously lived through, understanding that they must have reached the same conclusion and chosen to go around again. He doesn't literally remember, but deduces it. If you watch 41:40 - 46:20 it's all made clear. '...there's a copy of me still in the hard drive. Me, exactly as I was when I first got here, 7,000 years ago.' Nothing happens to change the copy and the Doctor making the speech then burns almost entirely; to dust and a skull.
@@alanbeaumont4848 I think in a fictional world when someone says something specific, it is better to take it the way writer intended, until the rest of the story suggests something else, so when the Doctor says he "remembers", what else could it mean if not its literal definition? Why wouldn't they wrote he "realises"? Plus I don't think the writer wants us to think this is just some random copy of the Doctor running around. So let's assume he does remember and see how that works its way to the rest of the story. There are many theories on the internet, such as confession dial being a virtual reality machine, him burning himself transfers the memories into the copy, or he is a copy but picking up strong impression left by the previous incarnation because he is a psychic etc. I would like to think his mind is "bound" with the dial so it can be preserved to be uploaded under any circumstances.
That being said, since most of loops are exactly the same, it is likely all of them would fuse into a much smaller memory, so memory of Clara is not that distanced regardless.
This episode is a masterpiece that pays off so many plotlines brilliantly for me. I disagree on almost every point you make. But I don’t think I can change any minds - and that’s fine. If everyone liked chocolate they wouldn’t make vanilla - and I thoroughly despise chocolate. I mean why??? It’s just dirt that’s attacking your taste buds with how bitter it is. And then people mix it with milk, which is decent on its own, but has nothing to do with chocolate. Why??? And then companies coat it in colors that do nothing to make the taste any less disgusting and in fact don’t alter the taste in any meaningful way. WHY?!? But as I said, it’s fine to disagree on things like this, and to disagree strongly. Bottom line, here’s some answers to the questions posited in the video, but if you disagree, we are still equally valid.
- The hybrid is the doctor-companion relationship
- Missy told the timelords that the Doctor knows what the hybrid is, and the cloister/cloister wraiths told the doctor the prophecy of the hybrid
- The doctor does not have the technology to save a companion in his own, so this storyline can only happen on gallifrey
- Timothy dalton was busy (they did ask him), so they were forced to recast
- The doctor spent all of heaven sent running away from grief, and when he’s told to ‘get over it’, he can only get over the trials he himself must undertake, not the grief itself. And here he continues to run from grief
- Steven Moffat’s biggest narrative regret was that he brought back gallifrey (he has said as much), and given how much modern doctor who is premised on the doctor not getting to go home, this story had to have the doctor permanently separated from his home
- Yes, regeneration comes with eyeliner. If I ever regenerate, I expect some fancy makeup.
- The cloister wraiths are narratively necessary (for all the cloister scenes and to give the prophecy), and the entire cloister is an interesting metaphor for the doctor’s mind, history and grief (again)
- The opening scene with the diner engaged me much more than simply continuing from the cliffhanger would have (this is a personal point, but nonetheless important)
- Even in the original show, Gallifrey was a metaphor for the most arrogant parts of british society, so the impoverished non-elite felt very appropriate (as well as other human things)
- The doctor finally shooting someone was a brilliant choice supported by nine seasons of character development
- Gallifrey is in direct parallel to Skaro at the beginning of the season
- Though this was not brought up in the video ( there was a lot of other stuff to cover), Ashildr also brings a lot of interesting theming as well
- Even if you dislike the script, I’d say the directing, sound design and effects were all top notch
- And yes, I think the script is great
- The scenes with Ashildr take place in the ruins of gallifrey, but even if they didn’t, the entire modern doctor who takes place in the ruins of gallifrey, with focus of the show on the doctor and the companion - looping back to the hybrid meaning I brought up before
- Chocolate is tastes like someone scraped it out of a toilet bowl
It might be my favourite episode... but I think I'm alone
Love how much of this is actually about chocolate. Nathaniel, if you're reading this can you review chocolate next week?
Three things tho:
. When did Missy tell them the Dr knew what it was?
. Even in the original show, Gallifrey was a metaphor for the most arrogant parts of british society, so the impoverished non-elite felt very appropriate (as well as other human things)" But in the original show the people outside Gallifrey were warriors who chose to live there to be closer to nature, they themselves haven't been used as part of this allegory.
. Also 9 seasons of character development led to the Doctor shooting someone? That's an... interesting way to look at it. But it makes no sense that the Davies was very much against the Doctor shooting someone. If it is how is that an arc? Him being tempted to shoot someone, remembering it's a bad idea each time, then actually shooting someone and then remembering it's a bad idea once again?
@@Ben-vf5gk
- For missy, sometime after the events of Time of the Doctor. The master was on gallifrey at the time, and presumably tokd them before being kicked off. Or who knows, maybe the master went back just to cause trouble, and brought it up then.
- True, but war can shake up the social dynamics. I blame rascilon.
- The gun thing is a very unique take of mine: the refusal to use a gun was always an arbitrary bar the doctor had to maintain a moral code. The tenth doctor was a truly horrible person who repeatedly committed genocide, abused his power and tortured some enemies - it’s just played like he’s a good guy. But by saying ‘I don’t use guns’,he’s able to justify all the horrible things he does because he feels he has a ‘moral highground’. With the eleventh doctor, people finally point out to the Doctor that he’s not a good person, and the twelfth doctor really delves into his own morality. But in order to build up to the proper morality the doctor has at the start of the thirteenth, the doctor needs to understand and accept his own failings. Thus he finally realizes how much of a token point using guns is, but by breaking this, is able to start building up a much more comprehensive (and less hypocritical) moral code. Interestingly, because of the timeless child revelation, the Doctor now seems to be falling into old habits, due to the self-acknowledged anger. But that’s another discussion
@@spencerluther6485 So Missy telling them is your headcanon? I mean I'm glad you have it but that's you doing the story's work for it.
The thing is why are they dressed like lower class earth people? Timelord robes aren't what the upper class of British society wear. As far as I know, maybe they're their pajamas.
Okay that's an interesting take even if I don't buy it myself, but it's still really contrived in it's execution he didn't need to shoot anybody, everyone was unarmed he could have kept the gun trained on them and left.
Hell Bent for everything you just said, and the emotional acting from 12 and Jenna is the best exit and best finale the show has ever had (IMO)
I'm not sure if series 9 had already paid off the Doctor's side of his relationship with Clara, though, that's the thing. They explored his grief after she died, sure, but his grief isn't what made his relationship with her toxic for him, it was his willingness to do anything for her, and to explore that, I think something Similar to Hell Bent was necessary. The mistake imo, other than keeping Clara alive, was having this episode after Heaven Sent. If this followed Face the Raven, she stayed dead, and then we have the Doctor deal with his grief, I think everything would've functioned a lot better.
Also, I feel like a lot of the distaste for what the Doctor does in this episode is because he's doing it specifically for Clara, and many people in the fandom believe that Clara isn't worth it? And that's not really the point. The Doctor believes she's worth it, and it consumes him. I'm not one to defend Moffat or this episode, but I do think that capturing his devotion to her, as well as her reckless behavior after what happened in Series 9 was probably the most mature piece of writing he did in his tenure as showrunner.
I do think it depends on how invested you were in Clara to an extent but I tried to imagine how I would feel if the Dr did this for my favourite companions and even then I don't love it.
@@Ben-vf5gk you're not supposed to love it. The Doctor is wrong. That's the point.
@@thiagoloss2842 I know, believe me I got that. I mean I'm uncomfortable with even a character I like being put on that much of a pedestal by the show when the Dr didn't go to those lengths for anyone else
i really like the episode (i agree the hybrid thing doesn't really pan out but other than that love it) and thats what i got from the episode and whole arc, he is wrong and a coward. I love clara so this probably helps but yeah very cool episode.
"many people in the fandom believe that Clara isn't worth it" I think it's more like, what makes Clara more worth saving than any of the Doctor's other companions who have died? That's why people hate this, because he's acting like she is the most important person ever since he's only willing to save her (though I will say that another interpretation is that Clara was the last straw and that's why he chooses to save her and her alone while not having done so with any past companions)
I don't love angry rants, to be entirely honest, let's just get going with series 10 and some BRILLIANT stories!
series 10 is one of my top nu who series (along with 6 , 5 and 4) me and my missus are re watching now and we are 3 in, all superb!
Most underrated series imo, one of my favorites. Professor 12, Bill, Nardole, and ocassionally Missy are my favorite TARDIS crew, the finale is easily the best in NuWho, I actually really like the Monks trilogy, cinematography is nailed, so much works about it. Series 9-10 version of the TARDIS is my favorite too, with the round things
I experienced 'Hell Bent' as the vengeful culmination of however many billions of years he was re-immersed in the throwback of a traumatic loss. "Heaven Sent" actually reminded me of someone repeatedly living night terrors or flashbacks, attempting to undo their own suffering. That he was prepared to 'end' his life time and time over the way someone who is enduring PTSD might. Heaven Sent and in turn Hell Bent were never actually about Clara, but the Doctor seeking atonement for what he perceives as his own negligence.
Heaven sent is just the doctor putrefying in the Nigredo, descending eventually into the inferno (i.e. Gallifrey), from which he ascends to the Albedo, i.e. "stories are where memories go when they're forgotten".
I think there's something inherently seductive about the penultimate episode, if we're honest with ourselves, to any of the past and post seasons. They suspend us in a way that forces us into a corner from which we long for conservative outcomes - narrative succinctness rather than allowing our imaginations to do overtime.
I think what The Doctor was doing in Hell Bent was trying to give the Time Lords and especially Rassilon, a huge middle finger, along with their rules. It was as he saw it, a huge betrayal of him, the whole way they twisted his confession dial to suit their own agenda, which (along with Clara's behaviour) got his companion killed (he would never have been there if Me hadn't lured him there on the instructions of the Time Lords) and he had had enough. That's how I see it, anyway.
Clara's (Coleman) acting here is great. I miss having her and Capaldi's level of talent vs the current crowd.
I totally believed Capaldi as the doctor. But I still haven’t had my doctor moment with Whitaker. I grew up with tennant so I have a soft spot for him, and I loved smith. But Capaldi I wholeheartedly believed.
@GamingWithChu the acting isn’t bad of course, there are some moments where the acting is really good. I’m just really disappointed with the writers. I mean, I had my Ruth doctor moment in that same first episode she was in!!!! So it’s just the way Whittaker’s doctor is written that I don’t feel a connection to her. Not really the fault of her acting.
@GamingWithChu I don’t mean to crap on Jodie herself. I mean to crap on Chibnall and his writing. I’m saying that I personally don’t feel a connection with Jodie as the doctor. This has little to do with her acting and everything to do with the writing. There’s only so much she can do as an actress when Chibnall hands her a steaming heap of crap. I feel like Jo is written in such a way that I connect more with her. That’s all, it’s got very little to do with the acting.
@GamingWithChu I’m sorry for my rude language. I’m reading it back now and it’s a bit harsh. I’m glad there are people who really enjoy Jodie as the doctor, I’m just frustrated and sad I’m not one of them, that’s all.
I don't think the extremes Twelve goes to to save Clara indicates that she's more important than any other companion. Most Doctors don't have this *opportunity* to save their lost companions. If Eleven could've gone to Gallifrey and saved Amy with an extraction chamber? I'm guessing he would've and damn the cost. Ten (Mr Time Lord Victorious himself) might have done it to save Rose.
And then you take into account all the times the Time Lords were very alive and this techonology was very available in the Classic era. Granted, I wouldn’t want to save Adric either
@@TheEldritchGoth What if the First Doctor could go back to Gallifrey, and find his granddaughter in the 22nd century?
@@Silverwind87 he wouldn't need to go to Gallifrey to do that
The idea that Heaven Sent's point is show a metaphor to overcoming grief is very interesting, it opened my eyes to a new and facinating point of view.
But I still have my original interpretation with me. Every time I rewatched Heaven Sent or watched reaction videos about it I thought about the episode as a metaphor for a diffcult journey towards an impossible goal.
12 had an impossible goal: To save someone he cared about a lot that had already died in front of him.
(and yes, it kind of doesn't make sense that the cares so much about her, making her the most important companion, but I like it :) )
As soon as he realizes he's in the confessial dial he sees a way, though. He eventually realizes that this solution will take huge self sacrifice and much time. He thinks about giving up, thinks to himself "tell them, whoever wants to know, all about the Hybrid". But ultimately he tells himself to keep going, through his vision of Clara. When she says "Get up of your ass and win!" she doesn't mean just save himself, but save her, well, save the true Clara ,as well. It's The Doctor telling himself to stop complaining and do what is necessary to win completely.
To me, Heaven Sent wasn't *just* about overcoming grief, it was also about seeing something impossible, something terrible that will hurt you if you try to go against it, and stepping towards it anyway, punching it until your wish becomes not only possible but a reality. That's what I feel when I hear the Sheperd's Boy soundtrack, just an epic motivation.
The thing that gets me is the tired trope of "This death is written in stone. Nobody can do anything about it. Not Even the Doctor!" And then they undo it. A series can get by with this once, but when it happens again and again it gets old. We expect them to be saved.
I have not, in fact, rewatched this episode. But from what I remember, the bits that I enjoyed were A) the mind-wipe scene (because, frankly, Donna's mind wiping makes me as angry as this whole episode makes you), and B) the final shot of the TARDIS dematerializing while leaving Rigsey's (spelling?) mural behind.
What had me internally screaming "WHY?!?!" while I was watching it was: "Why the hell are the Timelords worried about a prophecy at the end of the universe?!" There's no more time left for the prophecy to happen. Why go to all that trouble of torturing the Doctor to protect a future that doesn't exist anymore? It doesn't matter what the prophecy itself was, or if the buildup around it made any sense. By that point, it's moot.
I must have missed this one first time round. Gosh you rant well!!! Anyhoo. It's inspired me to go back and look at that perticular series again. Thank you!
I think all your combined videos shouting at Hell Bent are both longer and more fun to watch than Hell Bent itself.
The way I felt was Heaven Sent was about the Doctor getting over his grief over the death of Clara, whereas Hell Bent is about the toxic relationship between Clara and the Doctor and the extremes the Doctor will go in his 'duty of care'. Once the Doctor is on Gallifrey and he has the possibility of saving Clara, it's no longer a matter of grief and moving on, the relationship moves from the past to the present tense.
One episode is a journey through grief, the other is about a protective relationship. I do get how Hell Bent seems to undercut Heaven Sent but I disagree.
Moffat really looked at the audience and said "Get Hell Bent!"
Tying completely unrelated ideas together, the Master must be the Hybrid because he was standing in the smoking ruins of Gallifrey!
You know what would be better? If the Doctor went to Gallifrey and almost destroyed everything, so the Time Lords released Clara to talk him down. That would fix 90% of the problems this episode has.
Even in a Hell Bent rant the Timeless Children still gets shat on.
The Doctor was tortured for 4.5 billion years and people complained he used a gun to cost the general a regeneration. He got off lightly.
Except he didn't experience 4.5 billion years of continual torture, he reset every time and to him each time was the first as far as his actual accumulated experiences are concerned. Yes, he's intellectually aware that it was 4.5 billion years, but emotionally he didn't experience that. So I reject that justification on its own merits.
It wasn’t all reset. The skulls were all his and he probably realized it. Which added to the torment. He certainly knows what he has gone through to cut through the wall. And just because he might forget the previous day doesn’t make it ok. If you torture someone for an hour then wipe their memory does that means it never happened?
I actually liked the line they used to brush off how Gallifrey was unfrozen: “I dunno, I didn’t ask, would’ve only made them feel clever.” So in-character for the Doctor, so I can brush off the plot logistics in exchange for a good character moment
I think I have commented on one of your videos before and I am going to start following you because I had stopped watching Doctor Who after 12 left. But honestly I lost interest since heaven sent and hell bent. And the way you explained it in this video is exactly the reason why
Also, Moffatt is so annoying when it comes to his ego writing. I feel like he only brought Clara back cause like you said HE CREATED HER. Ugh why 😅😂
The time has come. The hybrid season has come to an end
Maybe
I love how in your rantiest of rants, you alternate between evoking Doug Walker and Louis Armstrong.
What really infuriated me about this episode is that I loved the way it started. I loved the badass Doctor taking out Rassillon. The problem is that after this it falls apart. By the way, in my head canon the Hybrid are the Tochlafane. The humans from Utopia encounter Rassilon, and he works to mold them into what they become. A combination of Time Lord and human tech. Humans are obviously warlike, and Timelord history is steeped in blood. His plan was to use them to destroy the inhabitants of Gallifrey, whom he believes betrayed him. To ease his broken heart, one might say.
And so it comes to this... After seeing it the first time, I knew that Hell Bent would become one of the most divisive stories in Doctor Who history because I myself am divided on it with parts I really love and parts that really drive me insane. I knew why people would really HAAAAATE this story yet I also kinda had fun with it. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot about this story that's nuts and I sure as hell would prefer it if it was better, yet I also found this to be, for the most part, an intriguing end to a fascinating and knowingly unhealthy Doctor/companion relationship. After all their emotional turmoil and push and pull and co-dependency, it was a real ballsy move in my opinion to make an epic finale all about how their symbiosis is just not good for either of them or the universe around them. It explores how this Doctor/companion dynamic is, ultimately, a grand, tragic romance. At the heart of it, Hell Bent has a good conceptual conceit: How far would you go to save the ones you love? It's a great idea that I just wish was executed better than it was here. If I have issues with it, it's that the new Rassilon was deeply miscast and felt like a pushover compared to the towering might and gravitas of Timothy Dalton, the Doctor shooting the General feeling like one step too far, the explanation about the Hybrid feeling way too convoluted, but my biggest issue is Clara's final scene. After what happens to the Doctor, Clara should also have surrendered to her fate. That was the whole point; it's what her entire arc, the Doctor's, and the entire path of Series 9, has been building up to: the fact that you have to accept responsibility for reckless behaviour, except she does the complete opposite of that by sticking with being an immortal, having her own TARDIS as well as an immortal companion of her own with Ashildr. It doesn't matter if she's still fated to return to her death because she can delay it for as long as she wants to, which ends up raising a big question, and one that's rather damaging: if she's going to keep running around as an undead immortal, why couldn't she just stay with the Doctor after all that? I feel that if they had just cut out Clara's final scene, and just ended it with her and the Doctor's bittersweet farewell in the diner, it would have greatly improved 'Hell Bent' for me. As it stands, while there are things about Hell Bent that I really admire, it is unfortunately rather a mixed bag to me. It's not the worst finale ever made (The Wedding of River Song, The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos and The Timeless Children were worse), it is definitely pretty low on the finale totem-pole for me. However, despite that, it didn't ruin the fun and enjoyment that I had throughout the rest of Series 9, which still stands as my personal favourite series of Modern Who even though it has one of my least favourite finales. I still don't know how that works, but it has for me.
A rrrather lengthy comment, wouldn't you say?
@@jmpjjacobs4829 I love a lengthy one
@Nioc Mutsuki Well, I didn't exactly say there was anything wrong with it, it's just I don't exactly go onto the internet to rrrread a novel, but I suppose you gotta do what you gotta do 🤷♂️
@The Reverse I care a bit that Gallifrey after years of seeing the Dr's emotional turmoil over it there was no reaction to it. Since the revival, I've been wondering how the Dr would feel if he got back home.
Though part of that is the circumstances the Dr is in at the moment, Clara just died. I just think we skipped over the Doctor coming back, expecting to feel joy at seeing that he succeded in saving it, and he's finally home but he doesn't and they're not his people anymore, and he remembers that he used to hate them. We don't really see HOW he got there, he's pretty much in "save Clara mode" as soon as he steps into the Barn
@Nioc Mutsuki It's not like I don't read sufficiently, I do think of myself as quite an expansive reader; it's just that in the confined space and the context that the comments section on a UA-cam video (reading it on a mobile phone) has to offer is not completely the right medium to share such extensive thoughts
I just need to tell you that I very loved shouty you. So passionate! (Also, I'm watching lots of your videos lately and have to say, your most recent styles rock and you're awesome, love you, byee)
Anything that inspires a rant on this scale obviously has a lot going for it!😎
My head cannon is that the Hybrid is just something the doctor made up went back in time whispered it into someone's ear "Doesn't she look tired" style to save Themselves in the future/their past.
"Final"... Riiiiiiiiiight...
Whilst I SO disagree, I respect you putting in the time to make another video on it! :)
Anyone else had this as their main event to look forward to for this week?
"That's another one for apocalypse bingo!" was my vibe for this, yeah
I wrote an essay for this lmao check it out in the comments
* raises hand * Here!
About bringing back Gallifrey in anticlimactic way - Moffat himself said in the interview in 2013 that initially finding of homeworld intended to be a story arc, but then he realized that it will be like Key to Time from Tom Baker's era - it will be just a mandatory segment of the episode which they have to do and only then get to the story of this episode itself. That's why it was sidelined. And at some point Gates said to him that he won't be a showrunner forever and there's not point in dragging comeback of Gallifrey, if he really wants to do it, so why hell not to make it now.
I kind of get that but my hope was that he wouldn’t ever find it. I wanted it to be a background feature, not an actual plot. So that in the back of his mind would be hope instead of despair. So I’m of the opinion that if Moffat didn’t think he had a good story for it: THEN LEAVE IT ALONE! Don’t touch it and let somebody who’s energized by the idea do something with it.
I know I should wait for the rant, but I might not have time later. Going to put down this marker here - the idea that this episode establishes Clara as being more important to the Doctor than any other companion is something we bring to this episode. It is not present in the text, nor implied in the performances. "I had a duty of care". I see no reason to believe that confronted with the death of any of his companions the Doctor wouldn't act the same way in the same circumstances. Yes, even Adric. The Doctor believe Adric's death led to the extinction of the dinosaurs and therefore the creation of the human race, so he couldn't interfere. It's even possible that the Fifth Doctor simply didn't know the option existed - maybe he learned of the relevant technology during the Time War. The Doctor almost certainly felt more responsible for Clara's death than he did Adric's. He knew - or should have known - the dangerous path Clara was on and if anything he encouraged her down it. Adric made a choice, knowing the possible consequences (you can argue Clara did the same, but she didn't really think it would get her killed).
Would be have tried to go back and extract Rose or Amy if he could do it? Amy, no, because ultimately he knew she didn't want that. Rose, almost certainly, but when that happened he didn't have the option of the Gallifreyan technology to do it. Not an option for Donna. Ultimately not necessary for Bill and it's only been an option during the time of Clara and Bill (possibly not even for Bill because (a) the Doctor seemed to regret what he did and (b) the Time Lords probably wouldn't fall for it twice). This might even factor into why they've destroyed Gallifrey (or at least the Time Lords) again under Chibnall - the Time Lords are over-powered and too tempting an option when you need to get out of jail free.
I enjoy huge chunks of this episode. I do agree that it would be stronger if Clara returned to face the raven (rather just promising she would later), but I don't find her exit much more contrived than the time lock that keeps the Doctor from visiting the Ponds. I agree that the hybrid stuff is almost entirely unnecessary - it was by far the least engaging of all the mystery boxes, but I really struggle to understand why this one generates the level of rage it does.
To an extent I would agree. Hell 8 said he was going to undo Lucy's death for a hot minute. But it's also him shooting the general, and the fact that Clara is the only companion to essentially become the Doctor (Donna was only a hot minute). Nathaniel looks at stuff like this in the context of the entirety of Clara's run and making her more seemingly the most important companion is pattern that goes back to Name of the Doctor
Your explanation of this being the only time the Doctor could pull it off does make the episode sit a bit better with me, so thanks for that
There's also the matter of the Doctor's own attitude at the specific time. This analysis itself points out that Clara was bringing out the worst in the Doctor for a while, so it could be less about Clara herself and more the Doctor snapping and going Time Lord Victorious again, just this time it's a companion that he's saving. Like with the Series 7 specials, Clara just happens to be there for the big events, and there's no consideration given to purposefully deflating her importance in some simple way, like throwing some more established companions into a multi-Doctor episode or having the Time Lords in this one go "Really? Her? Why not Rose Tyler while you're at it?" The problem with that is that this attitude doesn't work at all coming out of Heaven Sent, but the general logic is there.
Rassilon asking "How many regenerations did we grant you?" is posturing - it doesn't necessarily indicate that the Doctor was given any more regenerations than standard.
The Timeless Children isn't about giving the Doctor more regenerations because it *doesn't.* It's clear that's in the past and the Doctor hasn't had infinite regenerations since they were turned into baby Hartnell. Otherwise they wouldn't have needed to be granted those extra regenerations Rassilon's talking about.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I actually feel the opposite than you about this episode and Face the Raven. For me this was a way more satisfying departure for Clara aka The Impossible Girl. Simply dying was boring and over done by Moffat, this was new and different and what I feel Clara deserved. Hell Bent is actually one of my favorite season/series finales.
Overdone?
Satisfying?
A long time ago the Doctor was ordered to safe countless lives by ridding the universe from the face of evil. The Doctor instead chose to be kind. He lived knowing his kindness would have ripple effects. By letting davros live would lead to Time War and would lead the Doctor having no other choice but to tern his back on who he was. Living with regret. The Doctor never really forgave himself. One day on a wim he let's someone in again. Still fighting his demons and pushing them down, he travels with Rose. When he said goodbye to her the doctor literally gave her a part of him. Left to life a life he will never know I'm a universe away. When the doctor needed it the most he then stumbled upon a family. Amy, Rory and River were the strongest pillars the doctor had ever had. And he lost them too. Then this girl comes around. A girl who was somehow embedded into his entire life. Finaly forced to face his biggest regret he finds that regret he was carrying, the regret that molded him and influenced many of his decisions. He never did it to begin with. Still carrying a guild. Still in pain over so many goodbyes. Of people he loved. People he will never see again. Nolonger certain of who he is. The doctor asks Clara if he is a good man. Always wanting to do the right thing. Always ruining the lives of the people he loves. Till its goodbye...
See you can mourn someone. You can talk it through. Find new people to lean on. Pretend your strong for a wile. But how many times do we say goodbye before we break?
I kinda hope you revisit this episode every other year. Just a wish.
I love how you made Capaldi point the gun at you in the thumbnail. Or was it the editor that did that?
If each version of the doctor spent 7 to 10 thousand years in the dial and his first memories are of the death of Clara. Could it be possible after 7000 years of guilt and grief that saving her had become an obsession? And obsessions are rarely rational.
Also Rassilon looks very similar to the cyber masters . . . Could be a way out chibbers 😁
I was looking forward to this just to see if you could break glass with your high notes every time you said "WHY!!!"
Yep, this was a mind boggling episode all right.
You’ve perfectly summed up my feelings about the episode. It felt like the promised of Gallifrey’s return was being utterly wasted by the episode’s focus on Clara, whose subplot should have been finished with “Face the Raven”.
This episode annoys me even more in hindsight know that Chibnall has killed off the Time Lords. It’s irritating that this episode was all that came of the Time Lords coming back, well this and the extra regenerations in Time of The Doctor.
Another way of looking at that is that this episode shows that NuWho really has very little use for Gallifrey, and Chibnall was probably right to write it out again.
EDIT: A key point of division between fans seems to be how much you wanted to see (a) a Gallifrey story explored vs wanting to see (b) a proper denouement of Twelve and Clara's relationship. If you came in wanting A then you're going to find Hell Bent very disappointing, whereas if you came in wanting B you'll be pretty happy. And if you came in wanting both you'll be kind of conflicted about it.
Personally I'm not that interested in Gallifrey, so I'm okay with it.
I rewatched recently because I've been watching all of NuWho with my kid, I just tried to focus on the incredible acting and the fact that I'd soon be seeing one of my favourite TARDIS teams, Bill and Nardole.
I like the idea of an unstoppable Doctor every now and then, but I prefer when they lean on the "unbreakable spirit" approach.
Like make the episode about the Time Lords not understanding why they haven't cracked the doctor, and have him hold that over their heads, until the idea of reviving Clara is introduced, and we get a similar dynamic without the character betraying standoff.
I also wanted more to be done with Clara seeing the state of gallifrey. It would be fitting since she wants to be the doctor, and her not understanding what that means could the into that. She can only become a doctor once she starts where he did, and I think that's poetic.
The sad thing is that I don't think the Doctor got over Clara's death until his last episode.
Heaven Sent was him suffering through grief for 2 billion years, it represented his despair and hopelessness. I think him smashing through the wall is him getting over it, but not over Clara. He's still grieving, but not sad/hopeless anymore. He's angry and desperate to act, especially after 2 billion years of being stuck inside his head.
Hell Bent is that anger to the point that he will destroy everything if not stopped. Sort of a mental breakdown. It takes him literally forgetting about Clara to stop it. I've experienced something like this myself, and sometimes wish I could just forget like he does in this episode. It's a bittersweet scene to me.
Then in Twice Upon A Time, he finally remembers her again and the way he smiles makes me think he's not grieving anymore, he's finally just happy to remember her.
So I do think HS and HB work together. That doesn't mean they're both as good. The Gallifrey aspect doesn't work at all for me. The Clara aspect works for me as a metaphor, but to me, her true death was in Face The Raven. The Clara in HB is no more real than the Clara in HS.
Also, I don't think these episodes reflect that Clara was his favourite companion. I think his grief is not just for her, it's a culmination of all the grief over his lifetime. He's just tired of losing people.
24:00 gets me every time! "Have you rewatched it lately? WHY?! But if so, what did you think about it?"
I love Hell Bent! I don’t think the Doctor getting out of the dial was meant to symbolise he had ‘got over’ Clara, but rather that he raged against it because he was…hell bent…I don’t think he has his memories from all the billions of years, I think it was more showing that no matter how many times they (or grief) try to break him he won’t ever give up. I think Hell Bent is the real resolution to the story. I like that the hybrid was actually more closely linked to the emotion arc rather than just a random baddy to face.
Actually sorry if this comes of as rude but I think that the place where the doctor sees ashildir at the end of the episode is the smoking ruins of gallifrey
amazing how the bit of anger towards timeless children is based off a storyline that isn't real... it's literally stated that the timeless child's infinite regenerations were taken away from them when they were reverted back to a child, becoming william hartnell
It's certainly heavily implied (by stories like Time of the Doctor). Was it ever explicitly stated though? Where?
I watched Hell Bent for the first time today. I skipped most of Series 9 due to lack of time at university. Honestly, after watching all of the Chibnall era so far, this episode was refreshingly good. It has great music and strong emotional weight. Maybe comparing it to series 11 and 12 is the best way to look at this one.
Oh yeah, a lot delepnds on your reference point. Compared to a lot of Moffat's run and *especially* the prior episode Heaven Sent, Hell Bent is... contentious. It's miles above much of Chibnall's stuff though.
I love the idea that we don’t know which of them lost their memory in that cafe bar, but still hate it
I suspect Gallifrey was in here because I think Moffat thought The Husbands of River Song was going to be his last episode, but then Chibnall was still working on Broadchurch and couldn't take over, so Moffat did series 10.
Totally with you that Clara's story is resolved by the close of Heaven Sent. In terms of rewatching Hell Bent, I've only watched it to highlight a plot hole in series 12 about Gallifrey being said to be in a bubble universe where it is explicitly stated in this episode as having left the bubble universe. It's basically like you said it renders , like a number of episodes, The Timeless Children moot and narratively hollow.
This episode would have been much better if it wasn’t focused on his trying to save Clara, but actually more his attempt to solve who really killed her. Essentially, why exactly the Time-Lords put him through 4.5 Billion years trying to extract his confession.
5 years after its release and Nathaniel's still pissed. 👍
Her anger has ripened over the years like whisky in a barrel ;-)
The regeneration eyeliner is annoying bc we're spending time out here in the bathroom mirror tryna get our makeup just right and this lady is just BORN lookin good!!! Like she literally WOKE UP LIKE THIS!!!
Why do the Cloister Wraiths sound like TIE Fighters from Star Wars?
"Final"
I'd like to believe that this time. Really I would...
I was thinking that the master might have been the hybrid because he stood in the ruins of Gallifrey as he destroyed it in the timeless children and the master himself was my thought for a while
Hmm. The Timeless Child reveal shows that Time Lords are themselves hybrids - shobogans spliced with the DNA of the Timeless Child.
I take it her role in saving his timeline at all times simultaneously in Name Of The Doctor doesn’t figure in for you? You never bring up that episode. I certainly don’t have as much a problem w/ this one other than the silly ending. The beginning didn’t spoil anything for me and at first watching I accepted that it could be another headspace construct. Heaven Sent isn’t among my favorites and tbh The Doctor’s final iteration there experienced those events one time. I guess that’s allowed me to enjoy this episode. Your rant about the people of Gallifrey was spot on though and amusing - it makes no sense!
The people in the desert are Shobougans, the original indigenous people of Gallifrey. They are not Time Lords, through they gave rise to Time Lord Society. Classic era throwback. The Grapes of Wrath was popular in drive ins during the 3rd century after Rassilon's death, hence the outfits.
I agree with you on so much of this; I think the one thing they didn't do a good job of conveying well enough that would make me appreciate Hell Bent's effort a lot more is if they gave Peter Capaldi some time (perhaps, say, instead of the flash-forward diner scene intro, or maybe at the end of Heaven Sent) to really just ~break. the hell. down.~ that it was the Time-Lords, yet again, because it's always either them or the Daleks. That just utterly breaking him despite all that grief-handling would have made it feel a lot more believable.
The thing the show keeps dancing around, that they really could've nailed here, is that the Doctor ~resents~ the Time-Lords as much as they ~hate~ the Daleks, and risks acting out of character when confronted with either.
Suddenly, I'm in the mood for soup.
Your interpretation of Heaven Sent is absolutely not what was intended by Moffat, but that shouldn't matter. Four words: Death Of The Author.
It also not what the raw text suggests.
I've just realised... if we had an episode like Hell Bent before Heaven Sent, it would have worked out so much better.
You see the chaos of what grief has done to the Doctor and the stages of grief - denial, anger, bargaining, etc. That would then lead into Heaven Sent better where we see him "imprisoned" by gried as a result of his actions. Then, being left alone with his thoughts, the Doctor finally goes through all those feelings of grief. He finally goes through acceptance of Clara's death and moves on.
That would've made a better series finale.
Literally just watched it again because it's kind of a two part with the best episode, and yes WHY?
About the Hybrid thing: Didn´t they establish in Hell Bent, that the Doctor was trapped in the cloyster way back on Gallifrey, where they created all those prophecies. I think, it was either the Doctor or the Master, but at least one of them got trapped down there and couldn´t find the exit. I would naturally assume, some other Timelords had to come and rescue them and that´s probably how the legend spread. Granted, it´s just a throwaway line and we never witnessed the outcome. But it´s not UNexplained.....
To be fair, even though he did go pretty far for Clara, keep in mind that after all his lives and companions, maybe the guilt and grief from all his previous losses is what motivated him to keep going?
I usually skip angry rants. But for this, I grabbed the popcorn.
I see some of your points and i agree about the Hybrid thing as i never fully understood it then and still am not much clearer. But having said that, i really like it still. i watched it again with my missus before xmas and i told her the fans hate it (as she loves Doctor who but has no interest in fandom or whatever) and she couldn't believe it, she still loved it and so did i. So much about it i loved, especially with doctor and clara in the diner (love claras theme and love capaldi playing it on the guitar when he cant remember her, i love that 4th wall expanding idea - incidentally i have since figured out how to play it on guitar and am very happy with myself :) )
I also took that the angels connection and i thought that was cool and worth exploring more. yep. still great!
I think it'd be interesting if after all the pain and all the suffering he sees galifrey as his reward, but then finds again he doesn't fit in with his own people and realised things are wrong. Maybe have Clara as a hallucination hanging around whilst he's there, and eventually the doctor finds himself a bit stuck but eventually does what he began doing: running off in atardis. I don't know if that'd work too well but hey ho
I know this is my 3rd comment but I'm so glad River Song replaces Clara thematically in the episodes following. Guessing you'll mention that in the next reviews though. I know it's a stretch but I kind of consider Face the Raven to The Pilot as their own little 12 arc, or maybe Husbands reboots it thematically.
Episodes following? Husbands of River Song is one, what are the others?
@@irrevenant8724 I mean in Return of Doctor Mysterio and The Pilot, the Doctor is mourning the death of River Song instead of Clara, they just forget about all the Clara stuff that just happened and I honestly appreciate that
@@WiloPolis03 Ah gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense given that he doesn't remember Clara.
@@irrevenant8724 Oh yeah, that too I guess lol
The thing is. I've said hell bent has. Not grown on me. But ive learned to accept it. So ive started to think of heaven scent as his denial, depression stage. Hell bent is anger, bargaining, then acceptance. That's greif. It's all over the place. Don't get me wrong I still wish it never happened. But it did. I'm just trying to find a way to make it fit.
20:50 Council of Geeks giving me Jim Carrey Grinch vibes in the best way possible.
Can u pls tell how long this is gonna be
About 25 minutes.
@@CouncilofGeekssuper pumped
Heyo, what if the reason why the doctor went into such great lengths to save clara is really not because clara herself but actually because of this incarnation of the doctor himself (btw I actually don't really care for this episode but I guess I'm trying to see if I can make this episode easier to swallow. Also the 12th doctor is my favorite doctor, fyi). I mean this is the same character who attempted to murder one of his companions because he thought she was a spy. I believe the 12th doctor is kinda unstable and the most vulnerable. He's the first incarnation of completely new regeneration style and he didn't really know who he was for a good amount of time. He could've been stoic and grumpy because he tired of losing people throughout his lives so he tries not to get emotional attach so he can save as many people he can get, but he ends up loosening up a bit and get emotional attached with Clara. Clara is the very person he saw and got emotional attached too. So he ends loosening up more to the point that many can call him the ancient rockstore. He doesn't like to lose people, he even makes a person immortal so he doesn't lose anyone and who knows how long he had that device, could've gave to anyone really. He went death pushing boundaries to save a person that he didn't know for that long so like imagine what he would do if Clara dies, which brings up to face the raven. Clara dies in front of him, the first person who he's been emotionally involved with in such long time. One of the people responsible for her death was the same person who he had made immortal. I think he would have felt all kinds of guilt, anger, loss, and sadness. At this point, the 8th season version of this doctor returns and is consumed by rage at himself, at ashildr and at the timelord and he's on a warpath. With heaven sent, I think you're right, that it resembles grief and overcoming it but what if by the end of it, he didn't overcome his grief. What if hell bent was apart of that theme. (Kinda part of that theme.) What if him breaking the wall wasn't him overcoming grief but some sort of denial stage, a mental block. He's been in that prison for 4.5 billion years with that anger and determiniation. By the time he punches the wall, he remembers every song time. That anger and time couldve made him a bit delusional, unstable and tunnel focused. So he ends up on galleyfrey since he knows what their capable of (and who's to say this is his first time back on galleyfrey, I think there's still could be a story for the doctor first major return to galleyfrey) and continues with his plans. He shot the general angry but knowing He was going to regenerate but this same charcter was trying to choke the life of a human with full intentions of killing her. He didn't actually think things through until the end where he accept things and the memory wipe occurs.
Honestly? I adored Clara because of the possibilities she had, but was constantly frustrated by the inconsistency the writers had with her. So admittedly, I hold on to more of a fan version of her. And I completely see what you're saying about this. Because it's true. Not only was it all over the place, but because it was it took away the weight of a poignant exit that did nothing but shatter my heart all over again for different reasons. It probably didn't help that I watched the last three back-to-back the first time, but yeah. Much frustration.
In my head I kind of partition Clara into S7 Clara, S8 Clara and S9 Clara because they're almost three different characters. Personally I like S9 Clara the best because her dynamic with the Doctor is the most interesting.