The Avenger carried it's torpedo in an internal bomb-bay, doors closed. It had to drop, releasing safeties, for it's motor to activate and warhead to arm. Rather an unlikkely series of events for that torpedo to have come from a ditching Avenger, don't you think?
I mean, I consider it an incredibly unlikely thing, bordering on unbelievable. *But* It’s become accepted enough as a possible outcome that it’d be remiss of me to not mention it. Regardless of how unlikely it may be.
@@skyneahistory2306 You are correct, of course. I worked on a TBM for a few years at an air museum and got to know it and it's systems pretty well. Just wanted to point it out, lets face, anything can happen. Another wuestion, why did they rule out the Porters own torpedo, or another us navy torpedo, or a IJN surface ship torpedo?
I do agree that it is unlikely to be the Advenger's torpedo. I also will add that it may have been in the airplane before the plane hit the water. But it is a heavy piece of equipment that is held in by some mountings. It could have extracted itself when the plane hit the water. I am not sure what stall speed is on a advenger but I am sure it is above 100 mph. Hit the water at that speed could relocate almost anything.
I-21 survived that patrol and her logs don't record her firing torpedoes at that point. She most likely wouldn't have tried for USS Porter and would have tried for USS Enterprise or Hornet, anyway. They do record her firing six at a "Colorado-class battleship" the next day and claims one hit. USS Washington had a torpedo explode in her wake that day and her escorts depth charged a submarine. A circling torpedo near the ditching site was also noted before Porter got hit as well.
3 points to consider. 1) SOP for USN aircraft is to jettison stores before ditching, unless there is any indication of mechanical failure that will prevent closing a bomb bay. A jettisoned torpedo should not activate or arm on its own. Yes, there were issues with USN torpedoes at that time, but those issues were specific and known. You cannot just say "well, US torpedoes were faulty so that would cause it". Yeah, and the 73 Ford Pinto was known for catching fire if hit from the rear; that doesn't mean if a windshield wiper blade wore out it was just because it was mounted on a 73 Pinto. 2) If the torpedo was not jettisoned, the idea that it would break loose from its shackles during the impact of ditching yet still remain fully functional, manage to sink out of a bomb bay that would have been closed unless the torpedo had been previously jettisoned, then accidentally activate its motor, accidentally set its depth setting to engage a destroyer, accidentally arm its warhead, and by pure chance set off on a vector that precisely intercepted the course of the Porter at exactly the right time, is absolutely ludicrous. It takes an entire roll of tin foil to make a hat that would fit someone who believes that. 3) The ship was engaged in rescuing air crews that had ditched. At least one Japanese submarine was in the area, tossing out torpedoes for shits and giggles. And Japanese records that survived the war are known to be patchy at best. Why is it so hard to believe that the Porter's crew saw an Avenger ditching in the area, possibly facing towards the ship, which was hit by a torpedo from an undetected submarine shortly thereafter, and drew the wrong conclusion? That is by far the most logical and probable explanation. Occam's Razor, people; it's real, not just a Hollywood fictional phrase.
I-21 wasn’t tossing out torpedos for shits can giggles however. She only recording scoring a hit on a “Colorado-class battleship”, which could have been Porter but was more likely Washington which had a torpedo detonate in her wake
USS Selfridge, a Porter class destroyer, was involved in the last IJN victory of the war. She was crippled by a torpedo hit from IJN Samidare which blew off her bow.
@@robwernet9609Bows and sterns being blown off were fairly common in the IJN, Kriegsmarine, and Royal Navy, too. I believe they are a weak point in many ships of that era.
I have really enjoyed studying the Battle of Santa Cruz, but I never knew about this incident. Much of the focus on the battle is primarily on the carriers.
Very interesting! I am somewhat skeptical that a torpedo from a ditching Avenger could survive the impact, fall out through torpedo bay doors that were closed unless the ditching jarred them open, the torpedo activate, happen to hit the Porter, and then the notorious detonator actually work.
Probably the only people that'll take note of the name & class of ship nowadays are gamers.. As three of the ships in various fits appear in one title (DD-356 as built, DD-362 in 1941 refit, DD-360 in 1944 refit). But I've chatted to a few older people that'll talk about these ships but for the most part the wording at 0:36 is correct. Honestly the submarine possibility seems more likely then accidental blue on blue especially with the allied aircraft being a TBF as mentioned in other comments here. Say speaking of blue on blue will you ever cover the lose of the British Halycon class Minesweepers off Normandy August 1944 with two ships sunk under RAF attack & one ridden off to heavy damage which saw only one ship survive? (RIP if you have an I'm forgetting).
Well I guess someday someone's going to have to get down there and have a look at the wreck of the USS Porter and determine was it friendly fire or enemy action that sanket..
Can't really see flying all the way to attack japanese fleet with a torpedo and not drop it. Unless something mechanical or battle damage hung the doors open and the torpedo failed to release. Then I could see it launching itself upon impact when ditching. Not as far fetched as some believe.
The Avenger carried it's torpedo in an internal bomb-bay, doors closed. It had to drop, releasing safeties, for it's motor to activate and warhead to arm. Rather an unlikkely series of events for that torpedo to have come from a ditching Avenger, don't you think?
Also, USN torpedoes were not, at that point in the war, renowned for exploding when they hit. They were reliably unreliable.
I mean, I consider it an incredibly unlikely thing, bordering on unbelievable.
*But*
It’s become accepted enough as a possible outcome that it’d be remiss of me to not mention it. Regardless of how unlikely it may be.
@@skyneahistory2306 You are correct, of course. I worked on a TBM for a few years at an air museum and got to know it and it's systems pretty well. Just wanted to point it out, lets face, anything can happen. Another wuestion, why did they rule out the Porters own torpedo, or another us navy torpedo, or a IJN surface ship torpedo?
Very true . I can't believe that a torpedo came from a Avenger. I 100% agree with you. Thanks for stating the obvious.
I do agree that it is unlikely to be the Advenger's torpedo. I also will add that it may have been in the airplane before the plane hit the water. But it is a heavy piece of equipment that is held in by some mountings. It could have extracted itself when the plane hit the water. I am not sure what stall speed is on a advenger but I am sure it is above 100 mph. Hit the water at that speed could relocate almost anything.
I-21 survived that patrol and her logs don't record her firing torpedoes at that point. She most likely wouldn't have tried for USS Porter and would have tried for USS Enterprise or Hornet, anyway. They do record her firing six at a "Colorado-class battleship" the next day and claims one hit. USS Washington had a torpedo explode in her wake that day and her escorts depth charged a submarine. A circling torpedo near the ditching site was also noted before Porter got hit as well.
You forgot to mention the biggest piece of bad luck of all. Had it been an american torpedo that hit the porter the fact that it wasnt a dud!
Great looking ship. Equally great video.
3 points to consider.
1) SOP for USN aircraft is to jettison stores before ditching, unless there is any indication of mechanical failure that will prevent closing a bomb bay. A jettisoned torpedo should not activate or arm on its own. Yes, there were issues with USN torpedoes at that time, but those issues were specific and known. You cannot just say "well, US torpedoes were faulty so that would cause it". Yeah, and the 73 Ford Pinto was known for catching fire if hit from the rear; that doesn't mean if a windshield wiper blade wore out it was just because it was mounted on a 73 Pinto.
2) If the torpedo was not jettisoned, the idea that it would break loose from its shackles during the impact of ditching yet still remain fully functional, manage to sink out of a bomb bay that would have been closed unless the torpedo had been previously jettisoned, then accidentally activate its motor, accidentally set its depth setting to engage a destroyer, accidentally arm its warhead, and by pure chance set off on a vector that precisely intercepted the course of the Porter at exactly the right time, is absolutely ludicrous. It takes an entire roll of tin foil to make a hat that would fit someone who believes that.
3) The ship was engaged in rescuing air crews that had ditched. At least one Japanese submarine was in the area, tossing out torpedoes for shits and giggles. And Japanese records that survived the war are known to be patchy at best. Why is it so hard to believe that the Porter's crew saw an Avenger ditching in the area, possibly facing towards the ship, which was hit by a torpedo from an undetected submarine shortly thereafter, and drew the wrong conclusion? That is by far the most logical and probable explanation. Occam's Razor, people; it's real, not just a Hollywood fictional phrase.
I-21 wasn’t tossing out torpedos for shits can giggles however. She only recording scoring a hit on a “Colorado-class battleship”, which could have been Porter but was more likely Washington which had a torpedo detonate in her wake
Your videos are always well done. Thank you.
Thank you for doing the Porter DL's....always had a soft spot for the interwar destroyers..
Thank you for these videos. I find them all well-researched and fascinating!
USS Selfridge, a Porter class destroyer, was involved in the last IJN victory of the war. She was crippled by a torpedo hit from IJN Samidare which blew off her bow.
Boy american ships were renown for having their bows blown away.
@@robwernet9609Bows and sterns being blown off were fairly common in the IJN, Kriegsmarine, and Royal Navy, too.
I believe they are a weak point in many ships of that era.
Not exactly the last victory, USS Cooper got sunk in 44
@@JGCR59 That was part of the overall battle of Ormoc bay, which was a US victory. Six US ships were sunk, as opposed to Japan's 29.
I didn't know about the TT reloads. Very interesting.
I've always loved the look of the Porters.....
I believe her sinking should be credited to the Japanese light carrier Zuiho, as her aircraft shot down the plane which friendly fired Porter.
I have really enjoyed studying the Battle of Santa Cruz, but I never knew about this incident. Much of the focus on the battle is primarily on the carriers.
I liked the Porter from PayBack. Thanks, Skynea. Take care.
Would love to have a video on the SS Red Oak Victory someday. She's named for my hometown (Red Oak, Iowa)!
I like this video a lot thank you
I found this video rather interesting
Very interesting! I am somewhat skeptical that a torpedo from a ditching Avenger could survive the impact, fall out through torpedo bay doors that were closed unless the ditching jarred them open, the torpedo activate, happen to hit the Porter, and then the notorious detonator actually work.
Probably the only people that'll take note of the name & class of ship nowadays are gamers.. As three of the ships in various fits appear in one title (DD-356 as built, DD-362 in 1941 refit, DD-360 in 1944 refit).
But I've chatted to a few older people that'll talk about these ships but for the most part the wording at 0:36 is correct.
Honestly the submarine possibility seems more likely then accidental blue on blue especially with the allied aircraft being a TBF as mentioned in other comments here.
Say speaking of blue on blue will you ever cover the lose of the British Halycon class Minesweepers off Normandy August 1944 with two ships sunk under RAF attack & one ridden off to heavy damage which saw only one ship survive? (RIP if you have an I'm forgetting).
Well I guess someday someone's going to have to get down there and have a look at the wreck of the USS Porter and determine was it friendly fire or enemy action that sanket..
what a tragic irony,,and waste of life and resources..war is hell..
You should do a few shows with drachinefell
There must be something wrong with USN destroyers named Porter, be it DD-356 or Willie Dee.
Can't really see flying all the way to attack japanese fleet with a torpedo and not drop it. Unless something mechanical or battle damage hung the doors open and the torpedo failed to release. Then I could see it launching itself upon impact when ditching. Not as far fetched as some believe.
Hopefully her wreck will be discovered some day, I’d imagine she will be in the same condition as USS Hornet.
Why the heck are there double guns on the mounts. Those should be singles.
I don't buy the avenger thing either. Crap torpedoes inside a bomb bay. Nah
The Washington Naval Treaty NEVER Happened - Would WWII Ever have happened - Discuss?