this is an amazing idea for a series, can't wait to see more videos like this in the future. definitely need to see Duncan vs Kobe. Rusty with the fire content as always
Imo it makes no sense to compare players from different positions. Different tasks, playstyles..What you wanna compare? Stats? Titles, MVPs? You don’t need a video for that.
@@lakritz1987 Is it safe to say that you disagree with ranking players such as who's in the top 10 all-time but are okay with ranking players by position all-time?
I don't know how different his opinions are now, but he did do Duncan vs Kobe a while ago. Can't remember if it was this channel or the main, but it does exist
Boomer here. Watched 100s of Lakers’ games in the 80s. Yes, Magic’s flashy assists look amazing and us fans went bonkers. But here’s the thing, Magic was a talented scorer. 6 9 and fast as hell. He could’ve gotten to his spots any time he wanted because he was being defended by (what was common at that time) a 6 1 pure point guard. And I don’t believe the Lakers ran too many plays for him either so his points were free throws, fast breaks and broken plays. I think if he played today, he’d average 24-25 a game with at least 14 assists and 8-9 rebounds. And he was also a maniacal competitor. Don’t be fooled by the big smile.
Today he won't be defended by a 6'1 PG. That doesn't mean he won't be successfull, but it's very importatnt to acknowledge. Rusty didn't even mention that magic was guarded by guys he could barely see while Steph always gets the best athletes on him that are usually bigger than him and at times a lot bigger. The fact Magic was very far from a traditional PG, as all his peers were traditional PG size, probably helped him a lot. Also, we can say that Steph could average more assists if he wanted to, and be more ball dominant. Maybe both their styles were the best model for their teams to reach their full potentials, even if individually they could've chased more stats.
@tiredbasketballfan even when Dennis Rodman Jordan pippen drexler and other taller Wing players was on him he still cooked them too.. to different degrees...
It’s not magics smile that fools me. It’s his willing ness to get to any and everybody that he as great. Like he wasent that dude. In some ways I think his true point guard aura fools alot of people imo anyway
@@tiredbasketballfan LMFAO magic johnson would WIPE THE FLOOR with almost ANY guard or wing in the fucking league. you have NO IDEA how good magic was. Steph has been PROVEN to be able to shut him down just by denying the ball because he plays off ball. Magic is the PRIMARY ball handler. Steph isn't even the pg on the team he plays on LMFAO thats draymond
Damn, reloaded and saw this uploaded 15 seconds ago. I’ll take this chance to let you know you’re making phenomenal content and I love your presentation style.
Before "glazing" there was brown-nosing, your right just ignore the haters dude literally lmao, rusty makes solid as uniased as he can be fact based objective content or he seemingly tries to as much as he can similar to Johnny Arnett w a bit more personal flavor / bias. @@donsnow8039
I disagree about your assessment of the 1988 lakers team. Yes, Kareem wasn’t his normal self despite still being named an all star that year, but the entire roster is loaded. Byron Scott was an efficient 20 ppg scorer and very underrated historically. Michael cooper was an elite defender who won DPOY as a guard and would average close to 10 assists/game when magic was out. Tony Campbell, who only averaged 6 ppg in the regular season and averaged 7 minutes/game throughout just two games in the finals, went on to average 23 ppg the very next season in Minnesota… that’s never talked about. Mychal Thompson was a great back up big and former #1 overall pick who averaged about 17 and 9 in in his prime. Also, there was AC green who was a double double threat every night, played every single game, and even made all defense 2nd team in 1989 and an all star team in 1990. I haven’t even mentioned worthy yet either. This team was an absolutely loaded in their top 8 guys. Three all stars surrounded by another 20 ppg scorer and other great role players. Absolutely insane they were able to get this much talent
I don’t understand how he can say curry had more help than magic in there entire careers, kd was amazing but curry only played with kd for 3 seasons that is just a fraction of how many seasons curry has played in total. Klay and green never even made top 75 list but James worthy Kareem were both top 50, curry was drafted to a much worse team an looking at curry roster since drafted all the way till now magic definitely has had more help than curry there entire careers.
@@emilfrederiksen.1622 Yes, but you have to admit that it shows that is not so easy to fit great players together and win championships. The fact that Curry can work with almost every combination of players you throw at him is a positive about him.
the nets one definitely but anything after that just a mixture of kd getting old and not having the impact he did and him being overrated (contract wise he should take a pay cut if he remotely stands a chance to win anything) in his latter years. unless they play each other in the playoffs and kd loses, idt it will matter much in the eyes of true ball fans. ESPN will still promote their agenda tho and that will affect the perspective of many fans
this is incorrect. the bulls under MJ and Phil ran triangle offense, which is an early form of motion offense. The bulls innovated positionless basketball.
@@liftbreadIf the bulls were the innovators, then why were teams not running position-less offenses from 2000-2014? Why were true PGs and SGs still common?
Magic is a better passer no doubt, but the difference in skill level between curry and magic for passing is smaller than the difference in skill level for shooting, ball handling, floor spacing, etc.
@@phillipschuman4307 So you're saying what makes him a better passer is that he's actually *not* a traditional PG, and that PGs that are a traditional PG's size will likely be lesser passers han him no matter how skilled they are..? That's a reasonble take, buit doesn't it make it wierd to then 'penalize' PGs that are actually the right size for not passing like someone who has something they can never have - height? Doesn't it almost come close to comparing players who are drastically different in height in categories like dunking, rebounding, etc
@@tiredbasketballfan Not exactly. It's a unique physical fact about Magic on the plus side of his comparison to Steph Curry (and virtually all other pgs). Oscar Robertson had a similar physical advantage in the league of his time, which served him very well for passing at the point guard position (although he was also a 30 ppg scorer). It's the same way a 6'5" quarterback has an advantage over smaller QBs like a Doug Flutie. There was a reason he went to the CFL first-- the NFL was skeptical because of his height.
I’ll never understand the evaluation of all time greats playing together. People say Kobe and Shaq being together helps each of their legacies tremendously and then turn around and say Steph and KD playing together hurts both of their legacies. Then I hear from LeBron fans saying that MJ playing with Pippen somehow hurts his legacy because he never won without him. What???
Analysis: Magic played with top 3 all time Kareem for 10 season and they said it was fair Steph played with Kevin for 3 years and they said it was unfair 😂😂😂
@RCMartin08 Kareem was good but not great when Magic arrived. 18ppg and 7rpg with Magic. Did you not listen??? 18 and 7 is not great. Example Rip Hamilton played with 22ppg Jordan. Did he play with G.O.A.T. Jordan or borderline all star Jordan????
Exactly. Steph has gotten penalized for help arguably more than any other all time great in the top 10 convo, yet Magic arguably played in the most ideal situation of any all time great ever and everyone turned a blind eye.
@@vaughnrussell5772bro you should go back and actually examine the careers of these players. Kareem LITERALLY WON THE MVP in Magic’s rookie year and was definitively still the best player in the NBA. Yes Kareem tapered off towards the end of his career for sure, however he is an all time level talent and was still fringe superstar/ allstar caliber for most of those 10 years he played with magic. 10 years with Kareem, and around 7-8 with James worthy, guys like Michael cooper, Jamaal Wilkes and norm Nixon for the first half of their runs, Byron Scott, etc trumps having Kevin Durant with the warriors core for just 3 seasons. Magic played with more help by a long shot and Steph still got 4 championships despite playing in one of the strongest conferences of all time(2010s/20s west).
@patrick05Morgan For 1 year are you picking Kareem, Worthy and Cooper over KD, Dray and Clay? Look at their best year WITH Magic and Curry and get back to me.....
Magic got drafted to and played in the best situation of any all time great in nba history. Magic got drafted number one to the team with the best player in the nba and a 47 win team that made it to the second round, then they won 2 championships since which Magic didn’t even have to play point guard, and they drafted the number one pick again in year 5 after winning 57 games. Magic’s career is like if Steph got drafted to play with LeBron in 2009 and then they drafted Anthony Davis number one 3 years later.
Magic made it the best situation because he was the system, if he wasn't be as talented as he was, LA wouldn't have won a single chip in the 80s. They made it to the 2nd round the year before because they faced a Denver team with the same record as them, only to get thrashed 4-1 in the next round... Tons of players got drafted into similar situations over the years and they weren't as successful as Magic.
@@liftbread magic also played on the team of the MVP of that season who led the lakers to the finals in the first place and who averaged 33, 14, and 5 blocks a game to keep the lakers in the series.
@@Anton1oSainz Steph curry was the warriors’ system and he forced the entire basketball world to adjust to the new standard of scoring and shooting ability that he displayed and dominated with. Also who are the tons of superstar level players who got drafted into situations similar to playing with the best player in the NBA?
I don't really get it... Rusty keeps saying over and over that: - 'Magic is clearly the best playmaker ever because of his assist numbers' and that 'playmaking is about more than assists' - 'Magic is the better *true* PG' and 'Magic broke the convention by being a 6'9 PG' - 'PGs are pass first today too' while any PG who's considered one of the best in the league today is either very clearly score first or at least a very high volume scorer. (Not exact quotes obviously) Am I the only one who sees some contradiction here? Also, is it a coincidence that some of the best passers ever and in today's game are very much not PG-sized? Magic, LeBron, Jokic, Luka... What if the physical tools of these guys are somehow vital to being a succesfull high volume playmaker and also win? Then who are the real PGs, those who play that position or those who average the most assists?
@@tiredbasketballfan Magic's height was the only outlier he commented on. He was a traditional PG except his height. His game was traditional. Listen to understand not to argue.
@@vaughnrussell5772 Well, that depends what you think the most important part of 'traditional' is. A lot of this debate is about the definition of traditional really. It also depends what you define as the traditional play of a PG, as magic also had elements to his game that were more forward like, enabled by his untraditional size. It's very possible that I misunderstood some of the things said, but I dont think it's necessarily a bad thing to listen with a critical mindset, when this video is about a *debate*. Furthermore, while good creators *try* to be unbiased, even facts can be chosen and constructed to form narratives, either intentionally or unintentionally. So I always listen carefully and at times call out things I see as wrong / contradictory / context lacking / etc. If it sounds like I'm trying to misunderstand him on purpose, that's not the case. I agree with Rusty on many occasions, and no matter if I agree or not, I respect his opinion, which is partly why I'd like to understand why he said some things that I find don't exactly make sense to me.
@tiredbasketballfan ok cool. The main trait of Magic was he was a traditional point guard. He was a good rebounder to and had great height but those are not the main part of his game..... Even though they are outliers and add another level to him as a player.
I think it’s because of the high assist numbers on a _winning_ team. Playmaking is more than assists, but a volume of that level while winning championships means you’re doing something right playmaking wise.
@tiredbasketballfan Playmaking is more than assists is like saying scoring is more than putting the ball in the basket. Bruh playmaking is the bulk of it. Whether you are flashy, fundamental, in the half court or on a fast break..... can we stop thinking about the outliers and focus on the norm? I swear some of y'all get like women when you have to answer a question. Yes you can assist in other ways but by in large playmaking is the main way to get assists!
#8 kobe vs #24 kobe. Cmon rusty that had the most likes when you asked about this series on twitter the other day (no i'm not biased at all bc that was my comment) W vid tho
Not actually watching, just gonna say: they would be unstopable on the court together, Steph stressing the defense with his outside shooting and off ball movement would make Magic's job of getting the assist even easier. Magic would be able to always get the ball to steph in the perfect place for steph to get the 3. One of them woudn't be playing point guard
That should work well, but keep in mind that in this case you're assigning Steph to be a full time off ball shooter, which is not what he is in reality, so don't be surprised if you get diminishing returns. While Steph is good at working off ball, only people who don't watch him think that's all he does. It'd be a shame if he spent his career in that role
They’re obviously both phenomenal players, both iconic. Players of the past don’t get enough credit and respect because they’ve been retired for years while players who are still playing right now get that advantage cause we are witnessing their greatness in the present. With that being said, me personally, I think that Steph Curry is the better player without a shadow of a doubt but Magic is the better distributor/floor general. The way I look at it is this way, if I’m building my starting 5 and I need to choose a PG between Magic and Steph, who would I pick and why? Magic strength is his playmaking, excellent at fast break, his height and better rebounding. Steph’s strength is his shooting, his ability to space the floor, move without the ball and be elite on and off ball. Magic is not as effective without the ball while Steph is almost as dangerous if not more dangerous without the ball in his hand. Steph commands so much attention that he creates advantages for his teammates just by being on the floor. Even though Magic is the better playmaker, Steph is an excellent distributor as well. Prior to Steve Kerr, Steph was on ball a lot and he performed the duties of a point guard extremely well. Steph has been able to maximize players like Kevon Looney and Draymond Green, 2 guys who can’t shoot very well nor are great finishers at the rim. I don’t think Magic wouldve been as successful playing alongside those 2 guys instead of Kareem and Rambis or Cooper. Steph’s shooting ability is so valuable, his ability to score, his efficiency and his off ball movements…..all that make him more valuable to me than Magic. So if I was to pick a PG for my starting 5, I’d pick Steph curry and I know for certain that I’d have the most dangerous weapon between the 2 players. I love Magic, I just love Steph more.
Giannis is still playing. It's too soon. Giannis champion 🏆 was lucky and opportunist though, just like this year's Celtics and the 2019 Raptors. Dirks 2011 was way more impressive, despite it being over rated.
I think it's obvious magic has a better resume, but when talking about talent it's only comes down to preference. Magic started his carrer better, while curry prime and overall carrer is longer. Magic is more versatile by positioning, while for curry it's scoring the ball. Magic has shown to better at carrying a team (won them a game without karrem as a rookie, carried them to his last finals) while curry has lead his team to greater highest (73-9, 15-1 in offs). I just take the easy choice and say Magic better buts it's a debate
Steph backpacked Andrew Wiggins to a championship. Magic was swept in two NBA finals. When magic didn't have another all time great playing at an all time level on his team, he had some EMBARRASSING losses. And let's not act like he played the 1980 finals without Kareem entirely. Kareem was putting up 34 and 14 with nearly 5 blocks a game on like 55% from the field over 5 of the 6 games. In one game with shot variance, a new starting lineup to figure out, etc, anything can happen. Yeah, Magic put up big numbers that game, but we've seen average to slightly above average players go off for hilarious big performance in the playoffs in a single game sample. Sleepy Floyd put up like 60 in one game, ironically against the Lakers, Josh Smith had a crazy game in 2015, so I take that game 6 Magic had with a grain of salt. Cause it wasn't like he was doing that for the whole series. Imo, Kareem was better every game he played, but Magic stole that finals MVP cause he was new and people were prisoners of the moment. If Magic was the one who got hurt and Kareem was playing, I think the same result happens but he gets his deserved finals MVP
24/5/6. It’s not a debate. Curry isn’t even in the top 10 all-time point guards. Luka leads him in literally every statistical category possible except three-point percentage six years into his career. This is such a dumb argument.
@@greyklopstock7155 Steph curry literally only has one elite skill and that’s three point shooting, and last year he was 32nd in the league. In two of his four championships he was the second best player on the team and he played almost his entire career with Klay Thompson who is an equivalent outside shooter who unlike curry actually played defense. I think the fact that in his entire 15 year career he had four first team all NBA selections says it all. He was only considered to be in the top two point guard for eight of his 15 seasons.
@@SDesWriter lmao you are on crack if you think that's Steph's only elite skill. He's the best screening point guard in the history of the sport, he's the greatest ever at off ball movement, he's a fantastic rebounder for a point guard, his finishing is elite (65.2% for his career within 3ft of the basket, literally higher than Kyrie Irving's career rim efficiency of 62.2%, the narrative that Kyrie is a better finisher is almost completely an aesthetic one and not supported by data). Steph is one of the greatest ball handlers in the history of the sport. He's the greatest free throw shooter in the history of the sport. If you think Steph only has one elite skill, you don't understand basketball well enough to have a legitimate basketball discussion. If ANYONE only has one elite skill, it's Magic with passing. He wasn't very agile defensively, he wasn't an elite vertical athlete, didn't possess elite strength or speed, and was a liability in the pick and roll. Literally the only thing Magic had going for him on defense was being tall. And all his height and length did for him was allowed him to get more rebounds on defense. Meanwhile, Magic Johnson had a comparatively limited scoring repertoire. Basically all he could do was jump hooks on the block, bull rushes to the basket, and occasionally a midrange shot with almost zero lift and one of the slowest releases ever seen even back then. Magic as a scorer was at best a poor man's Jokic and at worst a less athletic Ben Simmons. Stephen Curry is better at shooting than magic is at passing, and it's not particularly close. Steph Curry shoots a greater variety of shots from deeper distances and with a significantly higher degree of difficulty than anyone in the league and most everyone ever by a sizeable margin. Steph shoots off the dribble, step backs, 30 footers, off platform, off handoffs, through contact, basically every type of shot there is. He's basically the only player ever to be able to shoot the variety of three point shots he does, and his efficiency is hilarious at that volume. Anyone who actually knows about some of the intricacies of being a shooter knows that 99.99% of high level shooters are specialists who only really shoot from a couple specific places on the court and off one or two platforms. Like, they'll only be elite off the catch from the right shoulder, off a rhythm dribble at the trailer spot, and from the corner. So, due to only specializing in a small selection of looks, they shoot a fewer shots to hit a higher percentage. Steph Curry, being a freaking alien, not only shoots EVERY type of shot off of every type of delivery, he also shoots shots that NOBODY ELSE even ATTEMPTS while putting up a higher volume than basically everyone else. So Steph Curry shooting 12 threes a game at 41% is FAR more difficult and impactful than Grayson Allen taking 6 threes a game at 46% shooting almost exclusively off the catch and from only like two or three spots. If Steph was only shooting from the corner, for example, he'd be shooting 49% for his career. In reality, Steph gets only about 12% of his career threes from the corner, meanwhile someone like Grayson Allen shoots a quarter of his three point attempts from the corner and he STILL has a lower career percentage from the corner than Steph. Steph's mastery of shooting is on the level of Jerry Rices receiving production. Magic Johnson never had to play multiple seasons after his body was trending downward, and his assists per game is only about half an assist higher than Stockton who played until he was 40.
@@greyklopstock7155 Okay literally nothing you said is true. The only reason you use nonsense claims like, "best off ball movement" is because it's based on YOUR opinion. It means nothing. It's not an elite skill because no point guard in history WANTED to run around without the ball. The definition of point guard is to initiate offense and pass (scoring is great, but not necessary). #2) "Finishing is elite".....Oh great, he's good at layups. You know who else is? Luka Doncic who is over SEVENTY PERCENT for his career and was in the 80% range last year. BTW, Steph "finishes" at the rim about twice a game vs someone like Kyrie who does it 5-8 times a game. #3) "Screening PG".....this is NOT a thing. The term means nothing. John Stockton was the best PG in history at setting screens, and if you're talking about coming off a screen and shooting, then you'll need numbers to prove that claim you pulled out of your ass. #4) "One of the greatest ball handlers".....another claim that means nothing because it's impossible to quantify. Was he better than Thomas? Robertson? Kidd? Williams? Rauf? Doncic (who takes the ball into traffic routinely and loses it once at most)? It's just the opinion of a fanboy. #5) Greatest free throw shooter? How many a game does he shoot again? Damian Lillard is 1% worse on 1200 more shots (at a younger age). But he has the highest % (unlike 3pt shooting) so okay, he's the best free throw shooter on a below-average number of attempts. Shaq (one of the worst free throw shooters ever) made 2000 more free throws. So you're saying he's the tallest midget? #6) A very good 3pt%, but last year he was 32nd in the league, so not exactly top 10 all time at the one thing he's great at.
@joshuayoung7972 Zeke was a phenomenal playmaker and had many instances of being the best scorer to boot. I think Rusty hates him because he played for the team that used to close MJ for the fun of it.
@@alsorustybucketsOscar Robertson is arguably better than Curry, so in no way, shape or form are these the “2 greatest point guards and it’s not up for debate”. Same thing with the GOAT debate, you’ve been gaslighted by the media into believing the GOAT debate only involves MJ/Lebron when in reality, you could EASILY claim that NEITHER of them are top 3 all time and Kareem/Wilt/Russell/etc all easily have a case for GOAT over them. Stop this sheepish mentality of “your top 2 all time has to be MJ/Bron and no other name is acceptable”. It’s completely clownish
As someone who plays as a true point guard kind of role, I know better than most that the only reason most true point guards prefer to pass is because we cannot shoot and we aren’t 6’10. Always hated the true point guard argument. Also I hate the idea of “who’s the best point guard” being like the standard for that position. It really is just who is the best player who also plays point guard. With that said, Magic all the way
Actually Rusty Buckets, Giannis this season has the most efficient 30 ppg season this year. A 30 point double double on 60%+ shooting. (The only to do so) 4th place in MVP voting my ass
Magic Johnson making ALL of his teammates better and involving everyone, and Kareem’s great wisdom and leadership in allowing this to happen, plus the fast break offense favoring younger and faster players, all led to Kareem’s ppg numbers dropping and it obviously worked for the team. Kareem didn’t DRASTICALLY drop off through the early and mid 80’s. He made 4 all nba first teams, a couple of second teams, and was justifiably a perennial all star through most of the 80’s You talked about this a lot focusing on Kareem’s stats without context.
5:40 I have been saying this for months. People who question curry’s authenticity as a point guard are hypocrites because magic literally didn’t even play the position in his first 2 championships.
Curry isn’t a point guard because he doesn’t initiate the offense, is 9000 assists behind Stockton, and has no other elite skill except three-point shooting percentage. He’s an off ball scorer. By definition that’s a shooting guard.
@@KuphelileSwira Luka is my favorite player and he's obviously the best scorer in the league (if Embiid isn't healthy). But he also gets 10 assists a game, and had another 5 that weren't assists because role players were shooting open jumpers like trash. Curry isn't the PG on their team, Draymond is. He initiates much of the offense and defers taking shots in favor of getting open looks for teammates. Steph does okay at it, but he's not a top flight PG. He's a shooting guard who can't play that position because of his size and defensive liabilities. So they call him a PG, then have him do exactly what the shooting guard does. That's fine, but calling him a top 2 point guard is embarrassingly stupid. You literally can't know anything about the game and do that. I just saw Andre Miller on a podcast praise Steph up and down, then finish by saying he'd put him in the top 10 point guards. That's a fair assessment. Calling him the BEST PG or a top 10 (or even top 5) player is ludicrous. He's a "scoring first" PG who averages 24 for his career? It's okay, but for a guy who doesn't really excel at anything else and is a mediocre to bad defender? Come on.....
I’m old school fan born in 1992 I prefer music in 80s & 90s I love music from past they had more talent than singers today. I’m millennial but I also enjoy basketball in 80s & 90s
The thing people keep forgetting is that Magic is always be seen as undisputed top 5 all time while there was debates about if the 2021 ring put Curry in the top 10 or not. Not even gonna talk about the FMVP, MVP
had someone tell me the other day "no one ever called steph a sg lil bro" so im glad you brought it up. personally i think he's a pg i just made an observation about the discourse
Will we get to a point where we view guards as just on-ball guard and off-ball guard, because I'd rather have two guards who can playmake and shoot, just that they do everything things depending on if they have the ball or not.
21:13 The showtime lakers were most definitely a super team. Like Rusty, what? Kareem won the MVP Kareem’s rookie year and Magic played with worthy, Michael cooper, Jamaal Wilkes, norm Nixon, etc.
Klay in the top 75 players of all time, he’s a 5 time allstar, 4 chips, won a 3 point contest, holds the single game record for most 3s at 14, second best shooter of all time, and was a great defender. There is absolutely no way Klay isn’t in the top 75 of all time.
Although it probably wouldn’t get the views, hearing a long thought out debate over the 3rd greatest PG of all time would be something I would listen to in a heartbeat. Nash, Stockton, CP3, IT etc all have great claims to that bronze along with Kidd and Westbrook for example. Would love to see it Rusty
I find it strange you really didn't know who the 3rd greatest pg is. I really don't think it's a debate. It's pretty obviously Isaiah Thomas Edit: I'm just gonna let you guys do your thing in the comment section. Whole lotta people with different names but nobody able to explain why 🤣
@@jaycob1830 He is good. He's not the 3rd best point guard in NBA history though. In his prime he wasn't good enough to win even once in a league with only 8 teams in it and the one he did win when he was traded to go play with a prime Kareem who was the best player in the world by a landslide who is still 2nd in total point to this day in Kareem. He couldn't win more then once. Then Kareem went to play with magic and won 5 as an old man while declining to show the gap
I don’t see any ranking list that agrees on who the 3rd best point guard is. I’ve seen Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, and even John Stockton (which I don’t agree with lol). Honestly, I think it’s a close debate between the Big O and Zeke
This is a tough debate, they both bring so many different strengths to a team. Magic is about the greatest passer in history, though I know people will say Stockton or Cousy, but the numbers favor Magic and he was still a better scorer with much less effort. He’s also 6’9 230 ish, he’s a PF sized point guard, even today’s NBA, but he’s Jokic /Young level passer (but better). He’d turn most average teams into a contender in any era. Size does matter in the NBA. He presents so many matchup problems on the break, from the perimeter, and in the post (where he also played very well). His FT% improved tremendously into the high 80s. Even in his reluctance to score, he’s pretty much a career 20 ppg scorer. People do oversell the help he had, the Lakers’ had pretty good roster without him, but I honestly doubt they win one without him. The 80s West was weaker in the 1980-85 years, but they’d eventually run into Boston and Philly. Upcoming Blazers, Rockets, Suns, and Jazz in the late 80s. I know some comments say Steph couldn’t play in the 80s/90s, but there was a pretty good guard by the name of Michael Adams. He found a coach in Doug Moe who told him to just to unleash 3 pointers. Adams was a pretty good player for a short time, but you can watch film on both players … Curry is a superior player and is a GOAT level guard. He’s a walking cheat code, because of his handle and broken shooting ability where he can hit toughest shots, especially three pointers from awkward spots. His playmaking actually improved a lot over the years, developing as passer. In that regard, he’s nowhere close to Magic, but his shooting ability is on another planet in comparison. Steph , like Bird, Kobe, and KD have knack for hitting difficult shots and getting points bunches. I know in NBA fandoms, this is a heavily biased metric, where one guy is criticized but another is championed. Getting points easy, efficiently, and sending defenses in into a tailspin is a skill in itself. He’s sort of like a team in football trying to cover AB or Tyreek, where they can beat you or your entire defense without the ball. People cling to the word “true point guard for past eras,” but if you’ve got a guy who can give you a very efficient 25+ ppg with 6+ asts and not too many turnovers. What are you talking about? If I’m a team trying to win a championship, the history and metrics favors “playmaking guards (SG/PG)” vs. a strictly passing guard who gives you less than 15/16 ppg. It’s not even comparable in total points. Which is still crazy that some fans don’t consider Magic “the best true point guard.” Defense, is kinda a wash. Neither was phenomenal. 1 vs 2 or 1A vs 1B is a fair split. I believe West and Big O would be the only other options to make an argument with 1/2. I think CP3/ Zeke/Payton/Stockton/Kidd/Nash /Frazier/Cousy is the seesaw battle.
Kevin Garnett vs Nowitski would be a good one. I feel like most people have Nowitski over but personally I take KG so I’d love to hear you’re take and a more detailed breakdown
What do you think about this approach in terms of the measuring both of their playmaking? Maybe this is more of a jxmyhighroller approach but I just thought of it while watching this video. To measure Magic’s playmaking impact, we get the team’s assist per game without him playing vs. the team’s assist per game with him playing. Obviously, base expectation is it is higher with him in it given his 12.5-13.6 addition. For Steph, we do the same. We get the team’s assist per game without him playing vs. the team’s assist per game with him playing. Obviously, he has those 6-7 assists to contribute to the team, but measuring it separately this way may be how we can see the gravity effect? Not too sure if there are other ways to see this with advanced metrics as I am also not sure if it would have been a metric existing in the 80’s. Another thing to consider is the pacing of the game, if the difference is significant. There should be a degree of normalization of Magic’s number to a faster paced game or vice versa with normalizing Steph’s number to a pace similar to Magic’s era.
22:50 by that same logic though, magic wouldn’t have any championships without Kareem. Also curry had way more competition in his own conference and completely dominated it despite this.
@@BenWeiss-f9p relative to their eras, 10 years with Magic’s roster is far more consistent and better help than 3 years with KD plus draymond and Klay who wouldn’t have had hall of fame careers without Steph. And you also contradicted your own point on that last corny comment, because if i got my opinions from rusty, there would be nothing to disagree with. Idiot.
One reason i dont buy i to the true point guard argument…. Is that magic really wasnt even a traditional point guard by the logic they use, he’d be a point forward.
No lol, if you played like the point guard people will see you as one. Which is why point fowards are a thing. They come with playmakers (something point guards are) it’s the reason people look at scottie pippen, lebron, and jokic as point fowards. The only reason they say that is because they play like a point guard and they pass.
@@LegendGamer-dj8om I dont disagree that magic is a point guard because thats the position he plays, but the same way people will look at lebron and call him a small forward despite people also saying he plays like a point guard makes it really dumb to call curry a shooting guard just cause he plays like one. Point forward and combo guards aren’t actual positions so we have to stick to what they’re listed at. If we’re going to ignore that for steph we can’t ignore the 6’9 non-perimeter threat who has all the pros and cons of the typical forward
My knowledge of basketball is far newer, and I think everything you said here is valid. In terms of PG I guess though, they way I would decide is if I had to build a team from any people in NBA history, Curry is one of the 5 guys I would build a team around without hesitation. If MJ, Lebron, Kobe, and Kareem were not available, I would choose Steph w/out hesitation. Maybe even before some of them. Magic is an all time great no doubt, but IDK if he is a guy I would build a team around more so then the guy I would pick after I got my cornerstone piece and made sure he distributed to the other players after I got my elite scorer. So that's my rational behind it, though I am far from anyone whose opinions should be taken seriously
Rusty didn’t bring in Cooper a DPOY. Don’t got the time to debunk this whole segment. Kareem and Worthy were 20 point scorers! Klay was Steph’s only 20 point scorer from the start of their dynasty until KD. Steph is #1. Magic only benefited in an era that was transitioning. He said Scott was borderline 20 points scorer and was a defender. It’s a lot to go back and forth on but Magic don’t impact the game unless he has the ball but Steph can do it with and without the ball.
No debating. Magic was a rookie all star AND finals mvp. He was top 5 as a rookie. Took years for Steph to even make all star. And Isiah got titles as the best player on the Pistons, finals mvp and rookie all atar honors.
Just saying Steph Curry was never going to be allowed to be great in his 1st seasons because teams didn’t believe shooting 3s was a viable option even when he was shooting like 44%. He had to prove season after season that a PG that scores a lot can work to get the green light.
@@sergeistalin7916 I think Magic tears through this soft league, day one. I don't know if Curry is even a superstar in the 80s. The translation of his game across eras has obstacles.
Well Steph didn’t have the Luxury of playing next to a top 3 player of all-time walking into his rookie season. He was drafted to a poverty franchise who had a few spikes of success but nothing major. On top of the injuries that derailed him early, he had to wait for his team to put the necessary pieces around him. Also it’s pretty unbelievable to say ANY all-time great couldn’t play in another era, Great players figure it out and if the diminutive PGs of yesteryear could find a way to be effective I’m sure Steph who’s essentially a outlier in terms of his ability to shoot the ball could find a way to be effective. If your argument is “He couldn’t handle the physicality” then how did other smaller and weaker PGs find success, you can’t just say they’d injure him because that’s indictment of his health more than his ability to play basketball. Assuming health he’d be dominant wherever you put him.
Magic did walk onto a team with a top 3 player - then Magic promptly took over that team. I don't think Steph has that his rookie year in any era. I don't think Steph runs the Warriors right now.
@@envyops The thing is no matter how good you are, no team was ever going to allow a player to take 9 3s per game in their rookie season until Curry proved you can win like that. If Steph was coming out of college in this era he would be a number 1 pick and taking 17 shots per game in his rookie season.
Just curious what you define the role of a PG. you can put anyone listed at any position but the role they play is proven when watching. Basketball has become so position less I don’t think just listing someone at PG means anything. In magics era, even when he wasn’t listed at PG everyone knew he was the PG. Why? he was the guy who setup the offense. This is not at all Steph’s roles and never has been. Steph is an elite scorer, so much so it opens the offense and makes him a playmaker. their roles are SO different. I think LeBron -> Magic is a much better comparison than Steph to Magic because their ROLE is so different. So what makes someone a point guard is my bigger question to you.
I would say that the pointguard is the guy that creates easier opportunities for others consistently in most possesions. Traditionaly players did it with the ball in their hands with passing. Curry at the start of his career was a 25/8.5 PG without even being in his prime and without much greenlight so to me he was a good traditional PG. But the moment he started to play off the ball he created the new evolution of a PG. A Player that creates for others every possesion, but with or without the ball.
Kareem was still pretty friggin' good during his final few years. Kareem was the best player in the first 2 titles, and Magic NEVER won a title without Kareem. Kareem DID win one, and 5 MVPs, without Magic.
Magic rookie year Kareem won his last MVP. From 80-86 Kareem was still top 10 in MVP votings. Kareem last good season was 87’ when he averaged 22 and 8, with almost 3 blocks per game in the 87 finals.
@@LegendGamer-dj8om Kareem did my team in back in 1985. He was at least 38, which was super ancient back then, and won FMVP. He was the best player for 2-2.5 of those titles. Even when he was ancient, they ran plays for him if they absolutely needed a shot. Kareem was no joke, and although I respect Rusty on a lot of these matters, KAJ was that Dude for a very long time.
I like a lot of what you say here. Good points about Magic and Steph and their strengths. However, you can say with conviction that you don’t want to entertain the notion that it’s POSSIBLE that anyone besides Steph and Magic are the best 2 point guards, just like it’s not POSSIBLE that the best 2 players aren’t Jordan or Lebron. But, of course it’s possible. I get that as a successful UA-cam channel, like the NBA and like other media, you are going to advocate for current players and cater to current dominant arguments. It’s in your self-interest. I think Magic is greater all time than Lebron, regardless of what Lebron does the remaining years of his career, regardless of what the league or ESPN relentlessly push. It is a valid discussion. It’s a valid discussion that Oscar Robertson is close to Magic. Kareem played with both of them and said they’re basically equal. I happen to think they’re the two best point guards ever. I also think it’s fine to argue that Steph is up there at 2, 3 or 4. Just because something is a current dominant narrative, and you may genuinely agree with it, it is really erroneous to act like it’s not up for VALID debate.
really liked this and do agree Magic is better (& you reminded me that his Lakers weren't as insane as I think of them), but how do you feel about the western conference in the 80s? feels like it's hard to say the west was better than the east then, it's a slight asterisk that I never really see discussed, even in the context of Magic v Bird
@MsMrapplepie That's because he played against plumbers. There's a reason he, Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Dr. J, Wilt, Bill Russell, and many more came straight out the gates dominant as opposed to adapting and building up.
There are 3 other things that were not mentioned that are important when discussing these top 10-15 all-time greats. Championships, MVPs and Finals MVPs. Magic has 1 more championship, 1 more regular season MVP, and 2 more Finals MVPs.
Just saying it was a different era, with less talent and much more stagnant. Winning 4 championships is more difficult in this era than in the 80s because now you have superstars creating new contenders every year.
If you could pick a starting 5 with all time players, who do you want at the point? Steph Curry Who's stats and accomplishments are more impressive? Magic Johnson
You cant just say “are listened as point guard” because to be fair lebron had played point every year after the miami heat team. He wasnt listed at pg but he has been the starting pg for majority of his teams
Different eras in terms of measuring accomplishments. Also varying contexts in terms of team-building/roster construction philosophies. I’d pick Magic over Steph because his ceiling is higher. Neither are true point guards. On the other hand, Steph impacts the game differently than Magic. Easier also to slip Steph in any system while Magic has to dominate play making in order to be more effective. Boils down to who else you have on your team, and how you want to “brand” your team.
I want that magic vs Kareem video because that is a question I’ve always had in my head. I think Kareem is more like Durant. A ultra talented weapon but not a leader and magic is more like the point guard version of Jordan
You can say magic is better but I really think you’re giving more credit to magic being the only one who avg 10+ assists as a good thing than his team. The lakers were still a really really good team for that era which benefited more from high assists than most other teams. If you put a handful of other high assist players into the lakers they also are probably really damn good.(maybe not to the same level because I think most other amazing playmakers aren’t pass first or are less pass first)
@1:25 Lebron's name shouldnt be in the GOAT debate either, especially not at top 2. He engineered 3 teams for easy finals trips. 2 of them got him there 8 straight times and he failed more often than not. That's not GOAT worthy. Kareem, Shaq, Kobe and Tim Duncan should be in the conversation. And hell Steph too at this point. If they're not in the discussion, Lebron shouldnt be either.
@@younglove3362 I dont hate Lebron, but i lost respect for him with how he tried to cheat the game in order to be on MJ's level. And i dont care about all the excuses for why he did it. His first 2 superteams pretty much guaranteed him finals trips and he still lost more than he won. Jordan fought for his wins. The GOAT list is MJ, then Kareem, then Kobe, then Tim Duncan. Imo it's being generous to give Lebron 5th in the GOAT list given what he's done to win.
@@younglove33624 championships in going on 22 seasons when Lebron has exercised player movement more than any superstar player ever is pretty disappointing when you think about it through. Be honest.
Nobody argues about "true" centers in the NBA because its universally recognized that centers who can both defend the rim and shoot or playmake are amazing. It's unfair for "fans" to pretend that pointguards have to be jammed into a specific mold. "Traditional" Pointguards (like centers) would make sense, but "real" pointguards?? Lmao
Him or Kidd. Stockton got those assist because of the Mailman Malone. There's a reason Malone has as my points as he does and Stockton has as many assist as he does. Neither one of them would have those inflated stats if they weren't playing together.
this is an amazing idea for a series, can't wait to see more videos like this in the future. definitely need to see Duncan vs Kobe. Rusty with the fire content as always
I'm asking out of genuine curiosity but can you explain why Duncan and Kobe specifically. Different positions, very different play styles.
@@hikikomori_3708Their fairly similar career wise and they both lined up together
Imo it makes no sense to compare players from different positions. Different tasks, playstyles..What you wanna compare? Stats? Titles, MVPs? You don’t need a video for that.
@@lakritz1987 Is it safe to say that you disagree with ranking players such as who's in the top 10 all-time but are okay with ranking players by position all-time?
I don't know how different his opinions are now, but he did do Duncan vs Kobe a while ago. Can't remember if it was this channel or the main, but it does exist
Boomer here. Watched 100s of Lakers’ games in the 80s. Yes, Magic’s flashy assists look amazing and us fans went bonkers. But here’s the thing, Magic was a talented scorer. 6 9 and fast as hell. He could’ve gotten to his spots any time he wanted because he was being defended by (what was common at that time) a 6 1 pure point guard. And I don’t believe the Lakers ran too many plays for him either so his points were free throws, fast breaks and broken plays. I think if he played today, he’d average 24-25 a game with at least 14 assists and 8-9 rebounds. And he was also a maniacal competitor. Don’t be fooled by the big smile.
Today he won't be defended by a 6'1 PG. That doesn't mean he won't be successfull, but it's very importatnt to acknowledge. Rusty didn't even mention that magic was guarded by guys he could barely see while Steph always gets the best athletes on him that are usually bigger than him and at times a lot bigger. The fact Magic was very far from a traditional PG, as all his peers were traditional PG size, probably helped him a lot.
Also, we can say that Steph could average more assists if he wanted to, and be more ball dominant. Maybe both their styles were the best model for their teams to reach their full potentials, even if individually they could've chased more stats.
@tiredbasketballfan even when Dennis Rodman Jordan pippen drexler and other taller Wing players was on him he still cooked them too.. to different degrees...
It’s not magics smile that fools me. It’s his willing ness to get to any and everybody that he as great. Like he wasent that dude. In some ways I think his true point guard aura fools alot of people imo anyway
@@tiredbasketballfan LMFAO magic johnson would WIPE THE FLOOR with almost ANY guard or wing in the fucking league. you have NO IDEA how good magic was. Steph has been PROVEN to be able to shut him down just by denying the ball because he plays off ball. Magic is the PRIMARY ball handler. Steph isn't even the pg on the team he plays on LMFAO thats draymond
@@liftbreadok……………….
Damn, reloaded and saw this uploaded 15 seconds ago. I’ll take this chance to let you know you’re making phenomenal content and I love your presentation style.
Holy glaze Donte
@@mikheilburnett527its fax tho, but phenomenal is too much. more like really solid for an average veiwer and amazing for bball fans
@@mikheilburnett527You really can't compliment a guy without it being glazing nowadays
Before "glazing" there was brown-nosing, your right just ignore the haters dude literally lmao, rusty makes solid as uniased as he can be fact based objective content or he seemingly tries to as much as he can similar to Johnny Arnett w a bit more personal flavor / bias. @@donsnow8039
@@donsnow8039fax
I disagree about your assessment of the 1988 lakers team. Yes, Kareem wasn’t his normal self despite still being named an all star that year, but the entire roster is loaded. Byron Scott was an efficient 20 ppg scorer and very underrated historically. Michael cooper was an elite defender who won DPOY as a guard and would average close to 10 assists/game when magic was out. Tony Campbell, who only averaged 6 ppg in the regular season and averaged 7 minutes/game throughout just two games in the finals, went on to average 23 ppg the very next season in Minnesota… that’s never talked about. Mychal Thompson was a great back up big and former #1 overall pick who averaged about 17 and 9 in in his prime. Also, there was AC green who was a double double threat every night, played every single game, and even made all defense 2nd team in 1989 and an all star team in 1990. I haven’t even mentioned worthy yet either. This team was an absolutely loaded in their top 8 guys. Three all stars surrounded by another 20 ppg scorer and other great role players. Absolutely insane they were able to get this much talent
@@michaelgieseler2799 🤫 You’re speaking facts lol
Crazy...
@michaelgieseler2799 He said that though....
I don’t understand how he can say curry had more help than magic in there entire careers, kd was amazing but curry only played with kd for 3 seasons that is just a fraction of how many seasons curry has played in total. Klay and green never even made top 75 list but James worthy Kareem were both top 50, curry was drafted to a much worse team an looking at curry roster since drafted all the way till now magic definitely has had more help than curry there entire careers.
@@ethio3083 Are you picking James Worthy and Byron Scott over Clay Thompson and Draymond Green? Are you choosing Andre Iguodala or Michael Cooper?
Hot take: every failed kevin durant superteam adds to steph's legacy
Kd is still Kd lol he was still a top 3 player in the world when the Warriors signed him and he was the best player in both the 2017 and 2018 finals.
@@emilfrederiksen.1622 Yes, but you have to admit that it shows that is not so easy to fit great players together and win championships.
The fact that Curry can work with almost every combination of players you throw at him is a positive about him.
the nets one definitely
but anything after that just a mixture of kd getting old and not having the impact he did and him being overrated (contract wise he should take a pay cut if he remotely stands a chance to win anything) in his latter years. unless they play each other in the playoffs and kd loses, idt it will matter much in the eyes of true ball fans. ESPN will still promote their agenda tho and that will affect the perspective of many fans
@@rajathnayak5624 the nets got hurt,how is that KDs fault and how does that 'add to stephs legacy' these discussions get so weird sometimes
No, it doesn't. What happens with KD has nothing to do with Steph.
The definition of a “point guard” was basically removed by the Golden State Warriors themselves, being the innovators of positionless basketball.
this is incorrect. the bulls under MJ and Phil ran triangle offense, which is an early form of motion offense. The bulls innovated positionless basketball.
@@liftbread still doesn't sell the "Steph Curry is a point guard because he 'plays' point guard" argument very well
@@liftbreadIf the bulls were the innovators, then why were teams not running position-less offenses from 2000-2014? Why were true PGs and SGs still common?
It was however after he won multiple titles that's when that greatest pg shit came up
@@liftbreadtriangle offense got smoked in this era. Phil jackson have been trying to last 10 years
Magic is a better passer no doubt, but the difference in skill level between curry and magic for passing is smaller than the difference in skill level for shooting, ball handling, floor spacing, etc.
Magic had the height to see over players, and get them passes from a higher starting point. With more zip on the passes, from having more strength.
@@phillipschuman4307 So you're saying what makes him a better passer is that he's actually *not* a traditional PG, and that PGs that are a traditional PG's size will likely be lesser passers han him no matter how skilled they are..? That's a reasonble take, buit doesn't it make it wierd to then 'penalize' PGs that are actually the right size for not passing like someone who has something they can never have - height? Doesn't it almost come close to comparing players who are drastically different in height in categories like dunking, rebounding, etc
😂😂😂😂😂you never seen magic play
Curry is an enigma as a scorer but Magic is a trickster too. There's a reason why they call him magic
@@tiredbasketballfan Not exactly. It's a unique physical fact about Magic on the plus side of his comparison to Steph Curry (and virtually all other pgs). Oscar Robertson had a similar physical advantage in the league of his time, which served him very well for passing at the point guard position (although he was also a 30 ppg scorer).
It's the same way a 6'5" quarterback has an advantage over smaller QBs like a Doug Flutie. There was a reason he went to the CFL first-- the NFL was skeptical because of his height.
I’ll never understand the evaluation of all time greats playing together. People say Kobe and Shaq being together helps each of their legacies tremendously and then turn around and say Steph and KD playing together hurts both of their legacies. Then I hear from LeBron fans saying that MJ playing with Pippen somehow hurts his legacy because he never won without him. What???
Always a nice day when a Rusty Buckets video drops.
Analysis:
Magic played with top 3 all time Kareem for 10 season and they said it was fair
Steph played with Kevin for 3 years and they said it was unfair 😂😂😂
@RCMartin08 Kareem was good but not great when Magic arrived. 18ppg and 7rpg with Magic. Did you not listen??? 18 and 7 is not great. Example Rip Hamilton played with 22ppg Jordan. Did he play with G.O.A.T. Jordan or borderline all star Jordan????
Exactly. Steph has gotten penalized for help arguably more than any other all time great in the top 10 convo, yet Magic arguably played in the most ideal situation of any all time great ever and everyone turned a blind eye.
@patrick05Morgan More than LeBron? Lol. I think when Curry retires I will put him over Magic but he had more help.
@@vaughnrussell5772bro you should go back and actually examine the careers of these players. Kareem LITERALLY WON THE MVP in Magic’s rookie year and was definitively still the best player in the NBA. Yes Kareem tapered off towards the end of his career for sure, however he is an all time level talent and was still fringe superstar/ allstar caliber for most of those 10 years he played with magic. 10 years with Kareem, and around 7-8 with James worthy, guys like Michael cooper, Jamaal Wilkes and norm Nixon for the first half of their runs, Byron Scott, etc trumps having Kevin Durant with the warriors core for just 3 seasons. Magic played with more help by a long shot and Steph still got 4 championships despite playing in one of the strongest conferences of all time(2010s/20s west).
@patrick05Morgan For 1 year are you picking Kareem, Worthy and Cooper over KD, Dray and Clay? Look at their best year WITH Magic and Curry and get back to me.....
Magic got drafted to and played in the best situation of any all time great in nba history. Magic got drafted number one to the team with the best player in the nba and a 47 win team that made it to the second round, then they won 2 championships since which Magic didn’t even have to play point guard, and they drafted the number one pick again in year 5 after winning 57 games. Magic’s career is like if Steph got drafted to play with LeBron in 2009 and then they drafted Anthony Davis number one 3 years later.
Magic was forced to play starting center in the finals of his rookie season and STILL won the chip AND the finals mvp.
Magic made it the best situation because he was the system, if he wasn't be as talented as he was, LA wouldn't have won a single chip in the 80s. They made it to the 2nd round the year before because they faced a Denver team with the same record as them, only to get thrashed 4-1 in the next round... Tons of players got drafted into similar situations over the years and they weren't as successful as Magic.
@@liftbread magic also played on the team of the MVP of that season who led the lakers to the finals in the first place and who averaged 33, 14, and 5 blocks a game to keep the lakers in the series.
@@patrick05Morgannd he still had to play center as a ROOKiE and won
@@Anton1oSainz Steph curry was the warriors’ system and he forced the entire basketball world to adjust to the new standard of scoring and shooting ability that he displayed and dominated with. Also who are the tons of superstar level players who got drafted into situations similar to playing with the best player in the NBA?
I don't really get it... Rusty keeps saying over and over that:
- 'Magic is clearly the best playmaker ever because of his assist numbers' and that 'playmaking is about more than assists'
- 'Magic is the better *true* PG' and 'Magic broke the convention by being a 6'9 PG'
- 'PGs are pass first today too' while any PG who's considered one of the best in the league today is either very clearly score first or at least a very high volume scorer.
(Not exact quotes obviously)
Am I the only one who sees some contradiction here?
Also, is it a coincidence that some of the best passers ever and in today's game are very much not PG-sized? Magic, LeBron, Jokic, Luka... What if the physical tools of these guys are somehow vital to being a succesfull high volume playmaker and also win? Then who are the real PGs, those who play that position or those who average the most assists?
@@tiredbasketballfan Magic's height was the only outlier he commented on. He was a traditional PG except his height. His game was traditional. Listen to understand not to argue.
@@vaughnrussell5772 Well, that depends what you think the most important part of 'traditional' is. A lot of this debate is about the definition of traditional really. It also depends what you define as the traditional play of a PG, as magic also had elements to his game that were more forward like, enabled by his untraditional size.
It's very possible that I misunderstood some of the things said, but I dont think it's necessarily a bad thing to listen with a critical mindset, when this video is about a *debate*. Furthermore, while good creators *try* to be unbiased, even facts can be chosen and constructed to form narratives, either intentionally or unintentionally. So I always listen carefully and at times call out things I see as wrong / contradictory / context lacking / etc.
If it sounds like I'm trying to misunderstand him on purpose, that's not the case. I agree with Rusty on many occasions, and no matter if I agree or not, I respect his opinion, which is partly why I'd like to understand why he said some things that I find don't exactly make sense to me.
@tiredbasketballfan ok cool. The main trait of Magic was he was a traditional point guard. He was a good rebounder to and had great height but those are not the main part of his game..... Even though they are outliers and add another level to him as a player.
I think it’s because of the high assist numbers on a _winning_ team. Playmaking is more than assists, but a volume of that level while winning championships means you’re doing something right playmaking wise.
@tiredbasketballfan Playmaking is more than assists is like saying scoring is more than putting the ball in the basket. Bruh playmaking is the bulk of it. Whether you are flashy, fundamental, in the half court or on a fast break..... can we stop thinking about the outliers and focus on the norm? I swear some of y'all get like women when you have to answer a question. Yes you can assist in other ways but by in large playmaking is the main way to get assists!
#8 kobe vs #24 kobe. Cmon rusty that had the most likes when you asked about this series on twitter the other day (no i'm not biased at all bc that was my comment)
W vid tho
@@goddammitnappa1617 #8 easily, better defender
Not actually watching, just gonna say: they would be unstopable on the court together, Steph stressing the defense with his outside shooting and off ball movement would make Magic's job of getting the assist even easier. Magic would be able to always get the ball to steph in the perfect place for steph to get the 3. One of them woudn't be playing point guard
What a boring, and uninsightful statement
That should work well, but keep in mind that in this case you're assigning Steph to be a full time off ball shooter, which is not what he is in reality, so don't be surprised if you get diminishing returns. While Steph is good at working off ball, only people who don't watch him think that's all he does. It'd be a shame if he spent his career in that role
@@jameztri2552Damn buddy woke up and chose violence LMAO
Ghost assist and hockey assist define some of Steph's impact.
Loving all yours videos on both channels, keep it up bro 🏀
Do Jokic vs Dirk to figure out who is the greatest European oat
with all due respect to Nikola, i think Dirk's storyline makes him a lot greater atm
@@HoneyBanev Dirk was considered a poor playoff performed prior to 2011
@@HoneyBanev jokic and its not close breh. he should of had 4 straight mvps.. and hes just now entering his prime. with all due respect to dirk.
It's Dirk for sure
its really jokic dirk or giannis
Great video. Definitely would want to see more matchups
Dwade vs James harden is a SG debate I hear a lot, would make for an interesting video
They’re obviously both phenomenal players, both iconic. Players of the past don’t get enough credit and respect because they’ve been retired for years while players who are still playing right now get that advantage cause we are witnessing their greatness in the present. With that being said, me personally, I think that Steph Curry is the better player without a shadow of a doubt but Magic is the better distributor/floor general.
The way I look at it is this way, if I’m building my starting 5 and I need to choose a PG between Magic and Steph, who would I pick and why?
Magic strength is his playmaking, excellent at fast break, his height and better rebounding.
Steph’s strength is his shooting, his ability to space the floor, move without the ball and be elite on and off ball.
Magic is not as effective without the ball while Steph is almost as dangerous if not more dangerous without the ball in his hand. Steph commands so much attention that he creates advantages for his teammates just by being on the floor. Even though Magic is the better playmaker, Steph is an excellent distributor as well. Prior to Steve Kerr, Steph was on ball a lot and he performed the duties of a point guard extremely well.
Steph has been able to maximize players like Kevon Looney and Draymond Green, 2 guys who can’t shoot very well nor are great finishers at the rim. I don’t think Magic wouldve been as successful playing alongside those 2 guys instead of Kareem and Rambis or Cooper.
Steph’s shooting ability is so valuable, his ability to score, his efficiency and his off ball movements…..all that make him more valuable to me than Magic. So if I was to pick a PG for my starting 5, I’d pick Steph curry and I know for certain that I’d have the most dangerous weapon between the 2 players. I love Magic, I just love Steph more.
Duncan/Kobe, Shaq/Hakeem, Garnett/Dirk, etc would be great vids👍
Duncan, shaq easily😂, dirk
@@Itsaperson10020dirk is one of the biggest losers ever who had one okay playoff run
Yesss bring this series backkk
Hot take: If the pass to assists was a stat curry would be not only the league leader but historic leader
Could you do a who's greater fro Giannis vs. Dirk? They've been a cool argument about who the best euro player is.
Giannis is still playing. It's too soon. Giannis champion 🏆 was lucky and opportunist though, just like this year's Celtics and the 2019 Raptors. Dirks 2011 was way more impressive, despite it being over rated.
RN its definitely Dirk but Giannis will probably retire higher ranked.
giannis easily
I think it's obvious magic has a better resume, but when talking about talent it's only comes down to preference.
Magic started his carrer better, while curry prime and overall carrer is longer.
Magic is more versatile by positioning, while for curry it's scoring the ball.
Magic has shown to better at carrying a team (won them a game without karrem as a rookie, carried them to his last finals) while curry has lead his team to greater highest (73-9, 15-1 in offs).
I just take the easy choice and say Magic better buts it's a debate
Steph backpacked Andrew Wiggins to a championship. Magic was swept in two NBA finals. When magic didn't have another all time great playing at an all time level on his team, he had some EMBARRASSING losses. And let's not act like he played the 1980 finals without Kareem entirely. Kareem was putting up 34 and 14 with nearly 5 blocks a game on like 55% from the field over 5 of the 6 games. In one game with shot variance, a new starting lineup to figure out, etc, anything can happen. Yeah, Magic put up big numbers that game, but we've seen average to slightly above average players go off for hilarious big performance in the playoffs in a single game sample. Sleepy Floyd put up like 60 in one game, ironically against the Lakers, Josh Smith had a crazy game in 2015, so I take that game 6 Magic had with a grain of salt. Cause it wasn't like he was doing that for the whole series. Imo, Kareem was better every game he played, but Magic stole that finals MVP cause he was new and people were prisoners of the moment. If Magic was the one who got hurt and Kareem was playing, I think the same result happens but he gets his deserved finals MVP
24/5/6. It’s not a debate. Curry isn’t even in the top 10 all-time point guards. Luka leads him in literally every statistical category possible except three-point percentage six years into his career. This is such a dumb argument.
@@greyklopstock7155 Steph curry literally only has one elite skill and that’s three point shooting, and last year he was 32nd in the league.
In two of his four championships he was the second best player on the team and he played almost his entire career with Klay Thompson who is an equivalent outside shooter who unlike curry actually played defense. I think the fact that in his entire 15 year career he had four first team all NBA selections says it all. He was only considered to be in the top two point guard for eight of his 15 seasons.
@@SDesWriter lmao you are on crack if you think that's Steph's only elite skill. He's the best screening point guard in the history of the sport, he's the greatest ever at off ball movement, he's a fantastic rebounder for a point guard, his finishing is elite (65.2% for his career within 3ft of the basket, literally higher than Kyrie Irving's career rim efficiency of 62.2%, the narrative that Kyrie is a better finisher is almost completely an aesthetic one and not supported by data). Steph is one of the greatest ball handlers in the history of the sport. He's the greatest free throw shooter in the history of the sport. If you think Steph only has one elite skill, you don't understand basketball well enough to have a legitimate basketball discussion.
If ANYONE only has one elite skill, it's Magic with passing. He wasn't very agile defensively, he wasn't an elite vertical athlete, didn't possess elite strength or speed, and was a liability in the pick and roll. Literally the only thing Magic had going for him on defense was being tall. And all his height and length did for him was allowed him to get more rebounds on defense. Meanwhile, Magic Johnson had a comparatively limited scoring repertoire. Basically all he could do was jump hooks on the block, bull rushes to the basket, and occasionally a midrange shot with almost zero lift and one of the slowest releases ever seen even back then. Magic as a scorer was at best a poor man's Jokic and at worst a less athletic Ben Simmons.
Stephen Curry is better at shooting than magic is at passing, and it's not particularly close. Steph Curry shoots a greater variety of shots from deeper distances and with a significantly higher degree of difficulty than anyone in the league and most everyone ever by a sizeable margin. Steph shoots off the dribble, step backs, 30 footers, off platform, off handoffs, through contact, basically every type of shot there is. He's basically the only player ever to be able to shoot the variety of three point shots he does, and his efficiency is hilarious at that volume. Anyone who actually knows about some of the intricacies of being a shooter knows that 99.99% of high level shooters are specialists who only really shoot from a couple specific places on the court and off one or two platforms. Like, they'll only be elite off the catch from the right shoulder, off a rhythm dribble at the trailer spot, and from the corner. So, due to only specializing in a small selection of looks, they shoot a fewer shots to hit a higher percentage.
Steph Curry, being a freaking alien, not only shoots EVERY type of shot off of every type of delivery, he also shoots shots that NOBODY ELSE even ATTEMPTS while putting up a higher volume than basically everyone else. So Steph Curry shooting 12 threes a game at 41% is FAR more difficult and impactful than Grayson Allen taking 6 threes a game at 46% shooting almost exclusively off the catch and from only like two or three spots. If Steph was only shooting from the corner, for example, he'd be shooting 49% for his career. In reality, Steph gets only about 12% of his career threes from the corner, meanwhile someone like Grayson Allen shoots a quarter of his three point attempts from the corner and he STILL has a lower career percentage from the corner than Steph. Steph's mastery of shooting is on the level of Jerry Rices receiving production. Magic Johnson never had to play multiple seasons after his body was trending downward, and his assists per game is only about half an assist higher than Stockton who played until he was 40.
@@greyklopstock7155 Okay literally nothing you said is true. The only reason you use nonsense claims like, "best off ball movement" is because it's based on YOUR opinion. It means nothing. It's not an elite skill because no point guard in history WANTED to run around without the ball. The definition of point guard is to initiate offense and pass (scoring is great, but not necessary).
#2) "Finishing is elite".....Oh great, he's good at layups. You know who else is? Luka Doncic who is over SEVENTY PERCENT for his career and was in the 80% range last year. BTW, Steph "finishes" at the rim about twice a game vs someone like Kyrie who does it 5-8 times a game.
#3) "Screening PG".....this is NOT a thing. The term means nothing. John Stockton was the best PG in history at setting screens, and if you're talking about coming off a screen and shooting, then you'll need numbers to prove that claim you pulled out of your ass.
#4) "One of the greatest ball handlers".....another claim that means nothing because it's impossible to quantify. Was he better than Thomas? Robertson? Kidd? Williams? Rauf? Doncic (who takes the ball into traffic routinely and loses it once at most)? It's just the opinion of a fanboy.
#5) Greatest free throw shooter? How many a game does he shoot again? Damian Lillard is 1% worse on 1200 more shots (at a younger age). But he has the highest % (unlike 3pt shooting) so okay, he's the best free throw shooter on a below-average number of attempts. Shaq (one of the worst free throw shooters ever) made 2000 more free throws. So you're saying he's the tallest midget?
#6) A very good 3pt%, but last year he was 32nd in the league, so not exactly top 10 all time at the one thing he's great at.
need more of these!!!
Plz bring this series back it was one of my favorites u would upload
Appreciate both their games.
Magic achieved more single amd team accolades in 3 less seasons though. Thats what they play for afterall, right?
Steph the only player in nba history that could be listed at point guard, average 7 asts as point guard, and still be called not a point guard.
luv u rusty
I love this series!
This video is disingenuous. Man spent 25 mins talking about Magic and his team and was like steph had kd so magic wins
Isiah Thomas gets so overlooked man. This is the second video in a row you forgot about his 2 chips.
No it’s not? I’m well aware of his 2 championships lol
@@alsorustybuckets I do think you greatly underrate his impact on those championships tho
@joshuayoung7972 Zeke was a phenomenal playmaker and had many instances of being the best scorer to boot. I think Rusty hates him because he played for the team that used to close MJ for the fun of it.
@@alsorustybucketsOscar Robertson is arguably better than Curry, so in no way, shape or form are these the “2 greatest point guards and it’s not up for debate”. Same thing with the GOAT debate, you’ve been gaslighted by the media into believing the GOAT debate only involves MJ/Lebron when in reality, you could EASILY claim that NEITHER of them are top 3 all time and Kareem/Wilt/Russell/etc all easily have a case for GOAT over them. Stop this sheepish mentality of “your top 2 all time has to be MJ/Bron and no other name is acceptable”. It’s completely clownish
@@gggyy7104what metric is Oscar “easily better” than Steph?
As someone who plays as a true point guard kind of role, I know better than most that the only reason most true point guards prefer to pass is because we cannot shoot and we aren’t 6’10. Always hated the true point guard argument. Also I hate the idea of “who’s the best point guard” being like the standard for that position. It really is just who is the best player who also plays point guard. With that said, Magic all the way
Actually Rusty Buckets, Giannis this season has the most efficient 30 ppg season this year. A 30 point double double on 60%+ shooting. (The only to do so) 4th place in MVP voting my ass
I think he's talking about true shooting
@@nickjones5495 Yeah... averaging a double double is great but it doesn't increae your ts
Magic Johnson making ALL of his teammates better and involving everyone, and Kareem’s great wisdom and leadership in allowing this to happen, plus the fast break offense favoring younger and faster players, all led to Kareem’s ppg numbers dropping and it obviously worked for the team.
Kareem didn’t DRASTICALLY drop off through the early and mid 80’s. He made 4 all nba first teams, a couple of second teams, and was justifiably a perennial all star through most of the 80’s
You talked about this a lot focusing on Kareem’s stats without context.
Please do continue this!
Also, can you do Dame v Kyrie?
I think a real good one would be Bird vs Durant. Similar playstyles but different careers for different reasons.
5:40 I have been saying this for months. People who question curry’s authenticity as a point guard are hypocrites because magic literally didn’t even play the position in his first 2 championships.
Curry isn’t a point guard because he doesn’t initiate the offense, is 9000 assists behind Stockton, and has no other elite skill except three-point shooting percentage. He’s an off ball scorer. By definition that’s a shooting guard.
@@SDesWriter probably the dumbest comment on this video.
@@SDesWriter you've never heard of a score first point guard?
@@KuphelileSwira Luka is my favorite player and he's obviously the best scorer in the league (if Embiid isn't healthy). But he also gets 10 assists a game, and had another 5 that weren't assists because role players were shooting open jumpers like trash. Curry isn't the PG on their team, Draymond is. He initiates much of the offense and defers taking shots in favor of getting open looks for teammates.
Steph does okay at it, but he's not a top flight PG. He's a shooting guard who can't play that position because of his size and defensive liabilities. So they call him a PG, then have him do exactly what the shooting guard does. That's fine, but calling him a top 2 point guard is embarrassingly stupid. You literally can't know anything about the game and do that.
I just saw Andre Miller on a podcast praise Steph up and down, then finish by saying he'd put him in the top 10 point guards. That's a fair assessment. Calling him the BEST PG or a top 10 (or even top 5) player is ludicrous. He's a "scoring first" PG who averages 24 for his career? It's okay, but for a guy who doesn't really excel at anything else and is a mediocre to bad defender? Come on.....
@@SDesWriterNo elite Skill besides shooting? Are you mad?
You’re really pumping out grade A evergreen content right now. Keep it up!!
Make the 3rd best PG of all time video
I’m old school fan born in 1992 I prefer music in 80s & 90s I love music from past they had more talent than singers today. I’m millennial but I also enjoy basketball in 80s & 90s
5:28 2020 lebron
2017 warriors vs 1987 lakers 7 game series: who wins?
The thing people keep forgetting is that Magic is always be seen as undisputed top 5 all time while there was debates about if the 2021 ring put Curry in the top 10 or not. Not even gonna talk about the FMVP, MVP
The thing I never understood about this debate is that many consider Magic arguably a Top 5 Player Ever.. so by default he’s the GOAT PG.
Magic is higher all time because of his resume. But I'm taking Steph to build a team.
had someone tell me the other day "no one ever called steph a sg lil bro" so im glad you brought it up. personally i think he's a pg i just made an observation about the discourse
Will we get to a point where we view guards as just on-ball guard and off-ball guard, because I'd rather have two guards who can playmake and shoot, just that they do everything things depending on if they have the ball or not.
I'll sacrifice a guard that can shoot for a guard that can play great defense as well as great offense.
21:13 The showtime lakers were most definitely a super team. Like Rusty, what? Kareem won the MVP Kareem’s rookie year and Magic played with worthy, Michael cooper, Jamaal Wilkes, norm Nixon, etc.
Klay in the top 75 players of all time, he’s a 5 time allstar, 4 chips, won a 3 point contest, holds the single game record for most 3s at 14, second best shooter of all time, and was a great defender. There is absolutely no way Klay isn’t in the top 75 of all time.
Although it probably wouldn’t get the views, hearing a long thought out debate over the 3rd greatest PG of all time would be something I would listen to in a heartbeat. Nash, Stockton, CP3, IT etc all have great claims to that bronze along with Kidd and Westbrook for example. Would love to see it Rusty
I find it strange you really didn't know who the 3rd greatest pg is. I really don't think it's a debate. It's pretty obviously Isaiah Thomas
Edit: I'm just gonna let you guys do your thing in the comment section. Whole lotta people with different names but nobody able to explain why 🤣
Idk i think Oscar is pretty good
@@jaycob1830 He is good. He's not the 3rd best point guard in NBA history though. In his prime he wasn't good enough to win even once in a league with only 8 teams in it and the one he did win when he was traded to go play with a prime Kareem who was the best player in the world by a landslide who is still 2nd in total point to this day in Kareem. He couldn't win more then once. Then Kareem went to play with magic and won 5 as an old man while declining to show the gap
I don’t see any ranking list that agrees on who the 3rd best point guard is. I’ve seen Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, and even John Stockton (which I don’t agree with lol). Honestly, I think it’s a close debate between the Big O and Zeke
@@eliorodriguez4379 Why what's your case for Oscar? I laid out why I don't think he is anywhere close to top 3
@@eliorodriguez4379 And jerry west and John Stockton aren't top 3 point guards ever. What are we doing here
This is a tough debate, they both bring so many different strengths to a team. Magic is about the greatest passer in history, though I know people will say Stockton or Cousy, but the numbers favor Magic and he was still a better scorer with much less effort.
He’s also 6’9 230 ish, he’s a PF sized point guard, even today’s NBA, but he’s Jokic /Young level passer (but better). He’d turn most average teams into a contender in any era. Size does matter in the NBA. He presents so many matchup problems on the break, from the perimeter, and in the post (where he also played very well). His FT% improved tremendously into the high 80s. Even in his reluctance to score, he’s pretty much a career 20 ppg scorer. People do oversell the help he had, the Lakers’ had pretty good roster without him, but I honestly doubt they win one without him. The 80s West was weaker in the 1980-85 years, but they’d eventually run into Boston and Philly. Upcoming Blazers, Rockets, Suns, and Jazz in the late 80s.
I know some comments say Steph couldn’t play in the 80s/90s, but there was a pretty good guard by the name of Michael Adams. He found a coach in Doug Moe who told him to just to unleash 3 pointers. Adams was a pretty good player for a short time, but you can watch film on both players … Curry is a superior player and is a GOAT level guard. He’s a walking cheat code, because of his handle and broken shooting ability where he can hit toughest shots, especially three pointers from awkward spots. His playmaking actually improved a lot over the years, developing as passer. In that regard, he’s nowhere close to Magic, but his shooting ability is on another planet in comparison. Steph , like Bird, Kobe, and KD have knack for hitting difficult shots and getting points bunches. I know in NBA fandoms, this is a heavily biased metric, where one guy is criticized but another is championed. Getting points easy, efficiently, and sending defenses in into a tailspin is a skill in itself. He’s sort of like a team in football trying to cover AB or Tyreek, where they can beat you or your entire defense without the ball. People cling to the word “true point guard for past eras,” but if you’ve got a guy who can give you a very efficient 25+ ppg with 6+ asts and not too many turnovers. What are you talking about? If I’m a team trying to win a championship, the history and metrics favors “playmaking guards (SG/PG)” vs. a strictly passing guard who gives you less than 15/16 ppg. It’s not even comparable in total points. Which is still crazy that some fans don’t consider Magic “the best true point guard.”
Defense, is kinda a wash. Neither was phenomenal.
1 vs 2 or 1A vs 1B is a fair split. I believe West and Big O would be the only other options to make an argument with 1/2. I think CP3/ Zeke/Payton/Stockton/Kidd/Nash /Frazier/Cousy is the seesaw battle.
Their Both Goats...it all depends what type of basketball you like
Kevin Garnett vs Nowitski would be a good one. I feel like most people have Nowitski over but personally I take KG so I’d love to hear you’re take and a more detailed breakdown
What do you think about this approach in terms of the measuring both of their playmaking? Maybe this is more of a jxmyhighroller approach but I just thought of it while watching this video.
To measure Magic’s playmaking impact, we get the team’s assist per game without him playing vs. the team’s assist per game with him playing. Obviously, base expectation is it is higher with him in it given his 12.5-13.6 addition.
For Steph, we do the same. We get the team’s assist per game without him playing vs. the team’s assist per game with him playing. Obviously, he has those 6-7 assists to contribute to the team, but measuring it separately this way may be how we can see the gravity effect?
Not too sure if there are other ways to see this with advanced metrics as I am also not sure if it would have been a metric existing in the 80’s. Another thing to consider is the pacing of the game, if the difference is significant. There should be a degree of normalization of Magic’s number to a faster paced game or vice versa with normalizing Steph’s number to a pace similar to Magic’s era.
22:50 by that same logic though, magic wouldn’t have any championships without Kareem. Also curry had way more competition in his own conference and completely dominated it despite this.
@@BenWeiss-f9p relative to their eras, 10 years with Magic’s roster is far more consistent and better help than 3 years with KD plus draymond and Klay who wouldn’t have had hall of fame careers without Steph. And you also contradicted your own point on that last corny comment, because if i got my opinions from rusty, there would be nothing to disagree with. Idiot.
One reason i dont buy i to the true point guard argument…. Is that magic really wasnt even a traditional point guard by the logic they use, he’d be a point forward.
No lol, if you played like the point guard people will see you as one. Which is why point fowards are a thing. They come with playmakers (something point guards are) it’s the reason people look at scottie pippen, lebron, and jokic as point fowards. The only reason they say that is because they play like a point guard and they pass.
@@LegendGamer-dj8om I dont disagree that magic is a point guard because thats the position he plays, but the same way people will look at lebron and call him a small forward despite people also saying he plays like a point guard makes it really dumb to call curry a shooting guard just cause he plays like one. Point forward and combo guards aren’t actual positions so we have to stick to what they’re listed at. If we’re going to ignore that for steph we can’t ignore the 6’9 non-perimeter threat who has all the pros and cons of the typical forward
@@LegendGamer-dj8om i will say it would be really cool to see alternative positions added to the league tho
Great video. Who’s greater Ray Allen vs Vince Carter ?
Depends on which one you care about more, the best passer or the best shooter OAT
My knowledge of basketball is far newer, and I think everything you said here is valid. In terms of PG I guess though, they way I would decide is if I had to build a team from any people in NBA history, Curry is one of the 5 guys I would build a team around without hesitation. If MJ, Lebron, Kobe, and Kareem were not available, I would choose Steph w/out hesitation. Maybe even before some of them.
Magic is an all time great no doubt, but IDK if he is a guy I would build a team around more so then the guy I would pick after I got my cornerstone piece and made sure he distributed to the other players after I got my elite scorer. So that's my rational behind it, though I am far from anyone whose opinions should be taken seriously
Rusty didn’t bring in Cooper a DPOY. Don’t got the time to debunk this whole segment. Kareem and Worthy were 20 point scorers! Klay was Steph’s only 20 point scorer from the start of their dynasty until KD. Steph is #1. Magic only benefited in an era that was transitioning. He said Scott was borderline 20 points scorer and was a defender. It’s a lot to go back and forth on but Magic don’t impact the game unless he has the ball but Steph can do it with and without the ball.
No debating. Magic was a rookie all star AND finals mvp. He was top 5 as a rookie. Took years for Steph to even make all star. And Isiah got titles as the best player on the Pistons, finals mvp and rookie all atar honors.
Just saying Steph Curry was never going to be allowed to be great in his 1st seasons because teams didn’t believe shooting 3s was a viable option even when he was shooting like 44%.
He had to prove season after season that a PG that scores a lot can work to get the green light.
@@sergeistalin7916 I think Magic tears through this soft league, day one. I don't know if Curry is even a superstar in the 80s. The translation of his game across eras has obstacles.
Well Steph didn’t have the Luxury of playing next to a top 3 player of all-time walking into his rookie season. He was drafted to a poverty franchise who had a few spikes of success but nothing major. On top of the injuries that derailed him early, he had to wait for his team to put the necessary pieces around him. Also it’s pretty unbelievable to say ANY all-time great couldn’t play in another era, Great players figure it out and if the diminutive PGs of yesteryear could find a way to be effective I’m sure Steph who’s essentially a outlier in terms of his ability to shoot the ball could find a way to be effective. If your argument is “He couldn’t handle the physicality” then how did other smaller and weaker PGs find success, you can’t just say they’d injure him because that’s indictment of his health more than his ability to play basketball. Assuming health he’d be dominant wherever you put him.
Magic did walk onto a team with a top 3 player - then Magic promptly took over that team. I don't think Steph has that his rookie year in any era. I don't think Steph runs the Warriors right now.
@@envyops The thing is no matter how good you are, no team was ever going to allow a player to take 9 3s per game in their rookie season until Curry proved you can win like that.
If Steph was coming out of college in this era he would be a number 1 pick and taking 17 shots per game in his rookie season.
Just curious what you define the role of a PG. you can put anyone listed at any position but the role they play is proven when watching.
Basketball has become so position less I don’t think just listing someone at PG means anything.
In magics era, even when he wasn’t listed at PG everyone knew he was the PG. Why? he was the guy who setup the offense.
This is not at all Steph’s roles and never has been. Steph is an elite scorer, so much so it opens the offense and makes him a playmaker.
their roles are SO different. I think LeBron -> Magic is a much better comparison than Steph to Magic because their ROLE is so different.
So what makes someone a point guard is my bigger question to you.
I would say that the pointguard is the guy that creates easier opportunities for others consistently in most possesions.
Traditionaly players did it with the ball in their hands with passing.
Curry at the start of his career was a 25/8.5 PG without even being in his prime and without much greenlight so to me he was a good traditional PG.
But the moment he started to play off the ball he created the new evolution of a PG. A Player that creates for others every possesion, but with or without the ball.
Kareem was still pretty friggin' good during his final few years. Kareem was the best player in the first 2 titles, and Magic NEVER won a title without Kareem. Kareem DID win one, and 5 MVPs, without Magic.
his final few years? implying like his last 2? 3? yeah no.
Magic rookie year Kareem won his last MVP. From 80-86 Kareem was still top 10 in MVP votings. Kareem last good season was 87’ when he averaged 22 and 8, with almost 3 blocks per game in the 87 finals.
@@LegendGamer-dj8om Kareem did my team in back in 1985. He was at least 38, which was super ancient back then, and won FMVP.
He was the best player for 2-2.5 of those titles. Even when he was ancient, they ran plays for him if they absolutely needed a shot.
Kareem was no joke, and although I respect Rusty on a lot of these matters, KAJ was that Dude for a very long time.
@@juliothom2408 i agree but those aren’t his last few years
😂😂magic was the engine of showtime and extended Kareem career. Magic>Curry, Magic>Kareem
Don’t remember if this was done in the past but maybe Giannis vs KG might be a good one to do
I like a lot of what you say here. Good points about Magic and Steph and their strengths.
However, you can say with conviction that you don’t want to entertain the notion that it’s POSSIBLE that anyone besides Steph and Magic are the best 2 point guards, just like it’s not POSSIBLE that the best 2 players aren’t Jordan or Lebron.
But, of course it’s possible. I get that as a successful UA-cam channel, like the NBA and like other media, you are going to advocate for current players and cater to current dominant arguments. It’s in your self-interest.
I think Magic is greater all time than Lebron, regardless of what Lebron does the remaining years of his career, regardless of what the league or ESPN relentlessly push. It is a valid discussion.
It’s a valid discussion that Oscar Robertson is close to Magic. Kareem played with both of them and said they’re basically equal. I happen to think they’re the two best point guards ever. I also think it’s fine to argue that Steph is up there at 2, 3 or 4.
Just because something is a current dominant narrative, and you may genuinely agree with it, it is really erroneous to act like it’s not up for VALID debate.
really liked this and do agree Magic is better (& you reminded me that his Lakers weren't as insane as I think of them), but how do you feel about the western conference in the 80s? feels like it's hard to say the west was better than the east then, it's a slight asterisk that I never really see discussed, even in the context of Magic v Bird
The 6’2 dude who wasn’t drafted on a super team
because having a super team in your prime is much worse than your first few years
Magic Johnson won finals MVP as a rookie, just saying. Nobody else has ever done that
😂😂the Lakers weren't a superteam. Magic was showtime
@MsMrapplepie
That's because he played against plumbers. There's a reason he, Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Dr. J, Wilt, Bill Russell, and many more came straight out the gates dominant as opposed to adapting and building up.
That 6'2 had the best roster around him out of any team in history for 3 years
I MISS THIS SERIES OH MY GOODNESS
Could you do one on Magic vs Bird? I think Bird is greater all time but his career was cut short
The Bird-Bird rivalry is definitely awesome
There are 3 other things that were not mentioned that are important when discussing these top 10-15 all-time greats. Championships, MVPs and Finals MVPs. Magic has 1 more championship, 1 more regular season MVP, and 2 more Finals MVPs.
Just saying it was a different era, with less talent and much more stagnant.
Winning 4 championships is more difficult in this era than in the 80s because now you have superstars creating new contenders every year.
Curry is the better player; Magic is the better point guard
Just say passer cuz Steph is a pg
😂😂Magic is better not even close
Yeah but Draymond green is technically a better pg than Curry while Curry is technically the best shooting guard on the team, despite being a pg.
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 disrespectful
@@younglove3362Draymond doesn’t play pg get it through your head.
Shaq vs Tim Duncan
Magic Fans: Curry had help Magic won on his own😏
Curry Fans: Curry beat greats like LeBron in the finals who did Magic play against😏
Curry had kd, magic had Kareem
Would love to see one of these for hakeem and shaq (if rusty hasnt done it already), KG and dirk, and maybe even CP3 and harden
Do Kobe vs Duncan next
Feel like Dirk vs KG would be a fun one, or Malone vs Jokic
If you could pick a starting 5 with all time players, who do you want at the point? Steph Curry
Who's stats and accomplishments are more impressive?
Magic Johnson
You never had a hole in your roster when you had Magic.
Who’s better, Tyrese Haliburton or Trae Young
this really reminded me how glad i am that i got to enjoy prime steph instead of being a hater 😌
You cant just say “are listened as point guard” because to be fair lebron had played point every year after the miami heat team. He wasnt listed at pg but he has been the starting pg for majority of his teams
Different eras in terms of measuring accomplishments. Also varying contexts in terms of team-building/roster construction philosophies. I’d pick Magic over Steph because his ceiling is higher. Neither are true point guards. On the other hand, Steph impacts the game differently than Magic. Easier also to slip Steph in any system while Magic has to dominate play making in order to be more effective. Boils down to who else you have on your team, and how you want to “brand” your team.
In this one choose yourself both are GOATs so I don't care which one you pick .
Do James Harden vs Allen Iverson I see them compared a lot when it comes to who’s the 4th best SG of all time behind Jordan, Kobe, and Wade
I want that magic vs Kareem video because that is a question I’ve always had in my head. I think Kareem is more like Durant. A ultra talented weapon but not a leader and magic is more like the point guard version of Jordan
Hakeem vs Bill Russell. Who is the greatest defender ever?
Dirk’s gravity was also epic.
You can say magic is better but I really think you’re giving more credit to magic being the only one who avg 10+ assists as a good thing than his team. The lakers were still a really really good team for that era which benefited more from high assists than most other teams. If you put a handful of other high assist players into the lakers they also are probably really damn good.(maybe not to the same level because I think most other amazing playmakers aren’t pass first or are less pass first)
@1:25 Lebron's name shouldnt be in the GOAT debate either, especially not at top 2. He engineered 3 teams for easy finals trips. 2 of them got him there 8 straight times and he failed more often than not.
That's not GOAT worthy. Kareem, Shaq, Kobe and Tim Duncan should be in the conversation. And hell Steph too at this point. If they're not in the discussion, Lebron shouldnt be either.
The only reason you hate LeBron is because of your obsession with Jordan. Stop the bs.
@@younglove3362 I dont hate Lebron, but i lost respect for him with how he tried to cheat the game in order to be on MJ's level. And i dont care about all the excuses for why he did it. His first 2 superteams pretty much guaranteed him finals trips and he still lost more than he won. Jordan fought for his wins. The GOAT list is MJ, then Kareem, then Kobe, then Tim Duncan. Imo it's being generous to give Lebron 5th in the GOAT list given what he's done to win.
@@younglove33624 championships in going on 22 seasons when Lebron has exercised player movement more than any superstar player ever is pretty disappointing when you think about it through. Be honest.
Amare Stoudemire vs Blake Griffin, Shaq vs Hakeem, Magic vs Bird, Kobe vs Duncan would be my future video matchups
Besides kobe vs duncan i think most people wont like the outcomes of those 😂
KG vs dirk for 2nd best PF would be cool
Nobody argues about "true" centers in the NBA because its universally recognized that centers who can both defend the rim and shoot or playmake are amazing. It's unfair for "fans" to pretend that pointguards have to be jammed into a specific mold. "Traditional" Pointguards (like centers) would make sense, but "real" pointguards?? Lmao
If true point guard was really a thing g John Stockton would be the best PG because he is the lead leader in career assists
Him or Kidd. Stockton got those assist because of the Mailman Malone. There's a reason Malone has as my points as he does and Stockton has as many assist as he does. Neither one of them would have those inflated stats if they weren't playing together.
Nah dosent make sense
Tim Duncan vs Kevin Garnett pls
You need to do Larry Bird vs Kevin Durant because a lot of people debate this even though I think it’s obvious
Who’s Greater Giannis vs Garnett vs Dirk