Torchlight Infinite was a big surprise in recent years. The game is really very good. Now, Grim Dawn is unquestionably tier S+. The difference is that Grim Dawn is a direct and improved evolution of classic ARPGs, while games like POE and TI followed different paths in this evolutionary line. I would say that Grim Dawn is an evolution of the ARPG genre, while POE and TI are a revolution. There is a tendency for older players, who have experienced the era of classic games in the genre such as D1, D2, Torchlight or Titan Quest, to adapt to Grim Dawn.
TLI devs said on bilibili that they aren't doing a preseason and are rushing next season so they can focus on updating UI with a focus on PC support among other things. The game deserves so much more praise than it gets.
Im so looking forward to this. There are dozens of UI annoyances that take away from the experience. I wish we had more graphics options too, the game is blinding if you have a big monitor. Hope they dedicate more time to the PC crowd
Everytime I see ARPG content creator talking positively about Torchlight Infinite I'm so damn happy. It's the most underrated ARPG on the market currently, and their league mechanics are so damn unique and fun (Mistville absolutely demolished Necropolis League for me). Cudos!
TBF - Diablo 3 owns d4 in every aspect. Build variety, theory craft ability, ability to swap builds with an armory, no bricking items, real leaderboards, party play that mattered (supports, rift killer, trash killer), team building, clan management system, repeatable fun end game, features diablo, set items (regardless if you like sets or not, they are a part of a diablo game), actual rewards for challenges, pets, wings, treasure runs. The list goes on and on. Most people that complain about d3 played it on launch and never touched it again, or straight up never played it. It literally eats d4 for supper.
I really feel like people need to get over the D2 nostalgia to progress the arpg genre, it was objectively remarkable and innovative when it came out, truly the father of the genre that anyone watching this video loves but new games need to move past it taking the best elements and leaving the worst behind. I think the nostalgia boner people have for it really hinders innovation in the genre unfortunately.
TLI is a really fun game and you’ll probably have a good time if you play PoE. The biggest annoyance I have is the localization. Given it’s developed by a Chinese company, a lot of the English translation is very bad.
Yeah, I was laughing at "OLD STUFF" from this season. For me one of the most annoying things is the voiceover loop of the characters - repeating the same quote every 10seconds in town is mad, gladly you can turn them off now.
i agree with torchlight infinite..game is super good..but everytime i recommend it to ppl try after they burnout from poe..they just laugh at me..and keep recommending me to play d4 instead..crazy
Yep, I have the same thing - people are really discouraged by the graphics and it being mobile game and because of that so many people miss one of the best ARPG on the market, which is sad. I was recommending it to my friends for 3 seasons, and when they finally gave it a shot this season - they are now saying, that they enjoy it more than PoE, mostly because it's chill and arcady fun and they don't have to waste hours in POB. Another thing, that is absolutely amazing is build sharing and sharing of your map recordings - those are the things that are (not ironic here) revolutionary for ARPGs
Totally agree with Last Epoch. Gosh I was so excited the first time I played it and then the endgame... i tried so hard not falling asleep while doing monoliths but its just so incredibly boring content.
@@ChaosxLordx In PoE there is a lot of layers of endgame: maps, delve, heist, labs, boss fragments, sanctum, the league mechanic, etc. You can rotate between different endgames each league or during the league. Even if you make only maps you have 3 customizable atlas trees, it is very different to make maps focusing on Maven invitations, or in Ultimatum or in breaches, or farming scarabs or completeing syndicate, o wathever. Every league I play a different endgame content, no other game can compare.
@@ChaosxLordx until you get to high tier monoliths you just ignore monsters and run to end, monoliths objectives suck ass, forced boss side quests suck ass, running thru the dungeons suck ass, etc
what are you on about? d2 is better then torchlight lol u have 30 hrs on d2 people have been playing it for years and still playing it dont think you really know arpgs at all and it shows torchlight 1 2 and 3 and the new one was sub par at most id even put tian quest up with d2 honest other then poe nothing beats d2 and lod
D2 is the only game that nailed loot drops, dont need a lootfilter, tons of fun items to find. But everything else is pretty bad by todays standard, really wish we could mod D2R, would be awsome.
Any game with scaling world deserves to be on the lowest tier. Whats the point in getting loot upgrades and skills and leveling up if everything just scales up with you. You might as well not have levels and loot at all except for le dopamine
I'm on the team that has played grim dawn since the beginning. Today I decided to install Diablo 4 to try it out. I couldn't even play for 1 hour. Those who played better things like path of exile and grim dawn will hardly return to diablo 4. Unfortunately, many mistakes were made in the design of diablo 4. Diablo 4 is for a more childish and superficial audience.
Don't sleep on The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing. I know the name is a mouthful and makes it sound like shovelware, but it's truly a hidden gem!
Man the way this video just ends after washing machine... this is some progressive Avant-garde content. I cant believe how delusional are the D2 fanatics xD (D2 is my fav game from my childhood, but its clearly dated nowadays. And btw, the influential masterpiece was D1, we like to say is D2 because it aged better)
D2 endagame is the item chase: gg rares, gg jewels, perfect uniques, high runes, tyrael's might, etc. (real item chase not just hh and mb), baal runs, chaos sanctuary, cow level for bases, building different builds, key farming, dclone farming (blizz kinda ruined this recently), lower kurast, trav., actual party play in some activities, pvp, terror zones. Claiming that it has no end game is....i dont know what to say. The key thing about the game is that it is all about player choice. Not sure that the endgame mapping in POE is better as I often get bored of it (over 15k hours in poe). To each their own I suppose. Only thing that actually trigged me is dismissing all us players who LOVE d2 and can't find a game that does what we like about d2 better as simply ppl who play the game bc it has diablo in the name. Great vid regardless. Edit: I also think Grim Dawn is A Tier and Last Epoch is B Tier. C tier is my books stands for CRAP lol. You get a C in school and everyone knows thats not a good.
you must smoke some serious crack if you say C in school is not good D is still a passing grade, C is average - which is what LE is, at best can't talk about grim dawn as i never played it you're also probably not looking for a game like D2, but for the time back then when you started playing D2
Devs already talked about your criticism with the skill tree They said the numbers would shock you on how many people max out all of the basic skills. So...they are stupid.
IAoVH is such a hidden gem. I think it's completely overlooked because the name makes it sound like forgettable trash. Honestly it was one of the best Arpg experiences I've ever had!
One of the worst things about D3 was the skill system (even though I don't hate it honestly) and I had super high hopes for D4 because they were going back to a skill tree system. But to steal a term from the immortal Alkaizer they still somehow managed to mess it up by creating the first ever arpg "skill twig".....
Some of the skills in D3 are actually way better. I just hated how the majority of runes to modify skills also modify its elements. Why not put that in items and let the skill be an element of itself?
They both suck TBH. But for different reasons, D3 was intended to be Blizz's next cash cow, when the AH debacle happened they didn't turn things around trying to find alternate ways to monetize the game, so it was natural that after Reaper released (which was cool at the time) the game would go into maintenance mode, so it was the situation that once you finished playing every class at least once there was nothing else to explore (that was like 8 years ago btw). D4 has everything going for it, it was built with monetization in mind (although not a great model IMO) and it has a huge team behind it, but the devs are so clueless, they are either desperately trying to seem original to the point where they prefer to implement something worse than the alternative (refer to resistances) or they legitimately have no idea what people look for on this genre, like the terrible monster density and badly designed gear progression at game launch.
D2>Grim Dawn> Everything else. I don't know for everyone else but the biggest factor and what gave the most popularity with Arpgs is loot and being meaningful. Like any addiction to carry on playing and keeping you hooked you have to feel rewarded is a big factor of a great Arpg. And these two games do it best.
Nice list. Deserves more views. Good for anyone getting into the genre. I would add that there are 3 major D2 mods. XL is in last place in my opinion. Still good but i would say Path of Diablo is better, and Project Diablo 2 is the best one. They are all worth getting to hell on at least one class though. You did forget Titan Quest and Sacred, but I assume you have not played those. I would rate them both around a C+ As for Grim Dawn, I 100% agree with B and maybe even B+. The default game is a big fat 'ok'. Again is worth pl;aying through, but the mod "Reign of Terror" adds all D2 music, all classes, all acts, with graphics and sounds and items and its a solid A tier experience. Its fan made and still updated and has been developed for years. Im pretty proud of them for how well they did it.
As someone that never played D2 on it's prime (20 years ago) I say that this game is pretty bad on it's base form, is old and it shows, people who put D2 at the top are the ones driven by nostalgia for being the OG.
Hello👻 I think D2 has one of the best soundtracks in gaming, which is really such a big part of the game. Also the sounds design and the art of the game are just so good. It reeks of great talent and no other arpg comes even close in that aspect. Its true that there is no cookie-cutter end game but u can still find things to do. Im playing 1.14b lod for the last 5 years trying to complete a grail and push a character to 99. The game design is so good, that i feel every click has its meaning. Its an old game with little QoL which makes it engaging and i dont feel like a bot while playing it.
Just to add a comment about TLI: The graphics / art style require a huge adjustment if youre coming from POE. Its a fantastic game but I cannot grind it like I can with POE or the Diablo franchise. It makes me go blind.
Lily is coo, but this list kind of sucks. -D2 is like really, really bad by today's standards. The inventory management, missing melee attacks like an old school turn-based D&D game, etc. Easily the worst arpg I've ever played. It's the only one where melee combat actually somehow feels bad. -PoE is shit once you get to mapping, although I do enjoy the leveling experience. Also, just the fact you cannot go into this game and make your own build as you go, prevents it for being S or A tier. That is the best part of arpg's. Hopefully PoE 2 fixes this. -Grim Dawn is S tier for me. It is the quintessential arpg. -The only one she really got right was D4 being dogshit, I think we can all agree on that.
Totally agree - POE by far the best ARPG - I would switch D2R and Grim Dawn, D2R is old but just feels good/right to play (didnt play in olden days, only resurrected) and Grim Dawn, doesnt have clunky combat but has bland visually combat, its like text game, but really good game. - D4 like D3, good gameplay, terrible game with nothing to do - Last Epoch is great for playing campaign and discovering what you can craft, beside that, game is empty, so treat it as some singleplayer game you complete and leave Great list
It's the Path of Exile soundtrack. Lioneye's Watch is the track. Composer posted playlist here on youtube. Good song, but I had to eventually turn off cuz spent so much time in-town. :)
You forgot Torchlight 2 which also sucks. Also as an avid PoE player I have it as S tier as well. However, I truly wish they would optimize the game engine better. Having a dope PC just to watch it drop to 5 fps in PoE because mob density gets so high when blasting juices maps is annoying. One thing D4 gets right. It pretty much never drops frames.
PoE engine is both pretty bad and at the same time impressive af. When watching Empy vids where they try and get as many projectiles on screen at one time, and there being hundreds of thousands of them without client crashing, that is impressive. But also true what you said about optimization for regular play
Thanks for saving me the time of trying to get into Lost Ark. I don’t really play mmos the game looks good but I’m playing every ARPG I can get my hands on. Last Epoch, Diablo, POE style no time or much interest in most other genres. I do like Divinity original sin 2, Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous type games CRPGs but again no time. Also a negative and only problem I have with Torchlight Infinite is that it’s not on console that is what is seriously hurting Torchlight Infinite. Just got to the end and have to mention Wolcen and Warhammer 40k Inquisitor Martyr both are actually really good as is Undecember.
I started playing D2R this year, the game is definitely a masterpiece for its time, I don't think it makes sense to compare it with a game like POE. I would just take it out of the list. I would never play D2R if I wanted to try an ARPG, I'm playing it because it's POE's grandpa. Modded D2 in the other hand its fair, It's being "developed" and I've heard it's pretty good, a lot of balance done and qol added by the community. Unfortunately it's not compatible with the remastered version so I can't try it.
ppl need to give a second try in undecember, the game changed so much since release I would put as tier B+ maaaybe A. The game has a lot of QoL features that I would love to see in some of those ARPG but ofc is not perfect.
@@brandonkruse6412 LE has had this problem for a while, amongst other things, like class balance, they had very good ideas about how they wanted to develop certain archetypes but kinda fell short on others, for instance Forge Guard is close to being one of the worst designed classes I've ever seen on a game, whereas I think Warlock is complete genius. It's understandable that the endgame would fall behind on an indie game that had to do Char design, graphics, optimization and arguably the best item system in the whole genre atm.
Last Epoch is a weird placement for me. The strengths mentioned are pretty much the most important things for an ARPG to get right. So they hit that, but somehow its still worse than D4?
Surprised to see Last Epoch that low considering all the hype around the game. I'd like to try it at some point, but I'll definitely wait at least until the endgame is sorted.
I agree with almost everything said in this list, although I think LE is better than D4, although not much better, but to be fair in your list it wasn't to far below either, but the fact that LE is developed by like 10 guys at home and not in San Francisco in a huge office gives it a massive edge above D4. One of the things I will put POE has against, is that the age is showing on the character design aspect (compared to D4 specifically, although D4 chars are not exactly that appealing either) , and that you need to swipe for your char to not look like a Hobo, also melee is trash GGG pls fix.
They can't fix melee because of character design. A melee skill needs a separate animation for each character.Ranged animations can be used on all characters. So melee dev is much more expensive (time and money) than ranged dev. The know it's a mistake, and made sure POE 2 doesn't have that problem. I wonder if it's something they can fix after POE 2 comes out. One of those "small" design choices early on that turned out to be huge.
@@aarons3014 Yeah, I mean I heard they explanation about why it was a difficult task to accomplish, but it was understood by the community that the reason why melee wasn't being fixed in POE1 is because POE2 was going to be good for it, but when they announced that both games would be coexisting they removed that as an excuse. Also the problem with melee is not really due to animations, at least not entirely, is the power level of the skills themselves, and the fact that for instance strike skills are artificially nerfed by all of them having a negative AS multiplier, and Slams being nerfed to the ground for actually no reason, because they were clunky AF to play and still worse than most spell builds in the endgame.
Oh dang I've been on a poe bender for 3 leagues now. I forgot about inquisitor martyr. That game is fun, easy but fun. I can see why you might not be so into it, since you're usually looking for a challenge. But sometimes I just wanna shoot slugs into chaos demons and not think much about it
We all know that any arpg game is better than diablo 4. It's better to forget that diablo 4 exists. I'm going to be more honest and say that Diablo 4 is one of the biggest failures in the gaming industry.
A very good list. I also think TLI is crazy good it just needs some more tuning and attention. I like it a lot more than Last Epoch or D4. But ofc nothing comes close to POE. No matter what some ppl say.
good tier list, but d1 should be in there imo. its the founder of arpg and it is a game that i still go back to with some well done mods (the hell 2). maybe you wanna give few hours into it :D
TLI is very personal opinion, graphics are not for everyone, there is paywall to play new hero traits which is big no go to me - better to pay for stashes or pets (which is also sad) than for new heroes. Skill trees are very boring, linking your skills with supports is literally completely stolen from PoE. It has very repetitive endgame as well - maybe fun for few days, but not with new heroes being unplayable, to compare i am not spending bucks in PoE every league, and its a game, which gave me fun for 10 years. Seasonal mechanics are the biggest and only upside for me, it has some interesting ideas. But its still mobile game in the end with very childish graphics.
i played a lot of poe and yes i understand your very low rate on diablo 3 i also understand and it's a fact path of exile is way better than Diablo 3 by a lot of ways but i don't know why i really liked this game I really played arpg with Diablo 3 i loved it at first i only did the campaign and i was a beginner but i loved it more time later i discovered the end game and the reaper of souls extension. it's good but not like the campaign. I had a lot of fun playing this game but it's a game that i like only for the campaign so i guess i can't compare it to poe really Didn't played Diablo 3 since i played poe so i guess maybe nostalgia is speaking also
no d3 is way more fun, but it's a completely different game than poe, poe u have to put the wiki next to u at all times, read every map before u do it while playing while d3 u just play the game, run grifts and have fun, especially season 28 and 30 where they added the altar of sacrifice, u basically sacrifice the most rare items in the game to it and it gives u permanent buffs (for the season) like no level req on items so u can level alts or your pets automatically collect and disenchants magic and rare items. so it's not nostalgia despite the similarities they have, they're just completely different style of games now like apples and oranges
@@post_rot Cap. If you have to put wiki next to you at all times, you're just a slow learner. That's fine tho, take your time. "you just run play and have fun", sure that can be fun for a bit. It can also be fun actually thinking about stuff and getting invested in your goals.
@@iFoss they're both really fun actually, im saying they cant really be compared also there's no way u remember every little mod alteration orbs can roll on flasks or every corruption implicit for every item or what type of damage every boss does, u do need the wiki to play
@@post_rot I do remember every mod on flasks. I do know every damage type of every stand alone boss. And you don't exactly need the wiki up at all times for the things you don't remember, do you?
Solid list. For D4 to step up its game going into the future, I agree the skill tree needs a complete revision. The tree (twig) needs a lot more meat and the skills need a lot more variation to them (akin to Last Epoch) because a constant bloat of new Legendary Aspects will just make it impossible to find the Aspects you need for your character to get going. It also needs to sort out its numerics and scaling as well because for whatever reason, with not much "real" changes to your character if feels like you suddenly go from doing 400k damage to 40 million damage. Some weird exponential scaling going on in the background.
Baseg, seasons in Grim Yawn are fun but its not much different from base game tbh. I wish there were more fun arpgs to play in between poe leagues, actually tried hero siege for the first time and it reminds me alot like d2 but more to do and S4 comes out soon
Is this just game whot you was playing???? Beacos I think you miss fwe titles. And try play patch of exile on console you maybe change mind 😂😂😂😂. For me all Arpg is fun to play. Well done saying Lost ark is MMO. And closer to D2 is POE and Titan Quest
What d2 still does great is the look of the game. Its stylized look looks way better than any other arpg I've seen. If D4 was launched with D2 graphics (old ones, not reforged shit)it would have looked 100xtimes better. But other than that, D2 just has a lot of out dated mechanics. I just don't think we should say that the graphics doesn't really matter, when people spend hundreds of dollars on skins in POE and other games.
I have over 1000 hours into PoE. But my main problem is the leagues and new contents every damn months. I still play my old character, but it become SSF because people into league, don't want to reroll 2 min to trade. That's pure BS. It become overhelming when you can't play it 10 hours per day. I hate f2P crap games so much
I would put LE in B tier simply for the dev team and how committed they are to making a great game. And so far they've delivered. Otherwise solid list.
I wanted to give it a shot until I've seen the abysmal P2W character boosts they've introduced this season :( It's basically equivalent of "get the free lv80 PoE character for 25 bucks at the start of new season" - wild af
I can see your view about Diablo 2 if you focus more on gameplay, mechanics, and overall amount of content. It is definitely a different game than PoE, one that you play more for the experience and not to grind content infinitely. Everyone approaches and experiences games differently and that is great. For me though, Diablo 2 was a life changing game. And no it's not nostalgia since I only first played it a few years ago. But no other game has made me feel the way it did. The music, the voice acting, the story, so much character and charm. These are things a lot of people just can't pick up on or care about. It is a work of art. I can't say that about most of the games on this list. I would put it S tier and PoE A tier with the rest of these below those. But again, we're all different and this is your list, so I respect that. Just my 2 cents.
Torchlight Infinite was a big surprise in recent years. The game is really very good.
Now, Grim Dawn is unquestionably tier S+. The difference is that Grim Dawn is a direct and improved evolution of classic ARPGs, while games like POE and TI followed different paths in this evolutionary line. I would say that Grim Dawn is an evolution of the ARPG genre, while POE and TI are a revolution.
There is a tendency for older players, who have experienced the era of classic games in the genre such as D1, D2, Torchlight or Titan Quest, to adapt to Grim Dawn.
"I don't know what they're thinking. I guess they weren't."
- Lily 2024
TLI devs said on bilibili that they aren't doing a preseason and are rushing next season so they can focus on updating UI with a focus on PC support among other things. The game deserves so much more praise than it gets.
hell yea
True!
Huge if true. It's petty but I literally cannot play the game because of the UI right now.
Im so looking forward to this. There are dozens of UI annoyances that take away from the experience. I wish we had more graphics options too, the game is blinding if you have a big monitor. Hope they dedicate more time to the PC crowd
This is nice to hear. Do you think it's essential to get the autoloot pet via battlepass or is free enough? Ty
Everytime I see ARPG content creator talking positively about Torchlight Infinite I'm so damn happy. It's the most underrated ARPG on the market currently, and their league mechanics are so damn unique and fun (Mistville absolutely demolished Necropolis League for me). Cudos!
It's a damn phone game and she was paid to play it....
@@XxKidnoffxX I have over 800 hours in this game and enjoyed every second of it - and I was not paid and didn't spend a single penny
@@Straggler8 do you play some mobile games sometimes?
@@XxKidnoffxX its funny she literally talks about this :D
@@applesauce1230 I know
TBF - Diablo 3 owns d4 in every aspect. Build variety, theory craft ability, ability to swap builds with an armory, no bricking items, real leaderboards, party play that mattered (supports, rift killer, trash killer), team building, clan management system, repeatable fun end game, features diablo, set items (regardless if you like sets or not, they are a part of a diablo game), actual rewards for challenges, pets, wings, treasure runs. The list goes on and on. Most people that complain about d3 played it on launch and never touched it again, or straight up never played it. It literally eats d4 for supper.
I really feel like people need to get over the D2 nostalgia to progress the arpg genre, it was objectively remarkable and innovative when it came out, truly the father of the genre that anyone watching this video loves but new games need to move past it taking the best elements and leaving the worst behind. I think the nostalgia boner people have for it really hinders innovation in the genre unfortunately.
TLI is a really fun game and you’ll probably have a good time if you play PoE.
The biggest annoyance I have is the localization. Given it’s developed by a Chinese company, a lot of the English translation is very bad.
Yeah, I was laughing at "OLD STUFF" from this season. For me one of the most annoying things is the voiceover loop of the characters - repeating the same quote every 10seconds in town is mad, gladly you can turn them off now.
Can I play it on PC?
i agree with torchlight infinite..game is super good..but everytime i recommend it to ppl try after they burnout from poe..they just laugh at me..and keep recommending me to play d4 instead..crazy
Yep, I have the same thing - people are really discouraged by the graphics and it being mobile game and because of that so many people miss one of the best ARPG on the market, which is sad. I was recommending it to my friends for 3 seasons, and when they finally gave it a shot this season - they are now saying, that they enjoy it more than PoE, mostly because it's chill and arcady fun and they don't have to waste hours in POB. Another thing, that is absolutely amazing is build sharing and sharing of your map recordings - those are the things that are (not ironic here) revolutionary for ARPGs
I'm willing to try it. Is it playable on PC?
@@DeivixLV Yep, the only thing I recommend is to reduce the scale of UI to minimum before start playing, makes the game not look so "mobile"
Couldnt agree more with the tier list, TLI > LE any day, just so much more content amd fun to blast
Totally agree with Last Epoch. Gosh I was so excited the first time I played it and then the endgame... i tried so hard not falling asleep while doing monoliths but its just so incredibly boring content.
I've never tried it, but isn't it just like maps in poe? Genuinely interested what makes it worse
@@ChaosxLordx In PoE there is a lot of layers of endgame: maps, delve, heist, labs, boss fragments, sanctum, the league mechanic, etc. You can rotate between different endgames each league or during the league. Even if you make only maps you have 3 customizable atlas trees, it is very different to make maps focusing on Maven invitations, or in Ultimatum or in breaches, or farming scarabs or completeing syndicate, o wathever. Every league I play a different endgame content, no other game can compare.
@@ChaosxLordx until you get to high tier monoliths you just ignore monsters and run to end, monoliths objectives suck ass, forced boss side quests suck ass, running thru the dungeons suck ass, etc
Ye, remember early days PoE? Farming fucking Docks for ever, cause no endgame at all? So fun lmao
@@user-wd4xb8tr5i This isn't the early days of LE I'm afraid, it's been on sale for 5 years.
what are you on about? d2 is better then torchlight lol u have 30 hrs on d2 people have been playing it for years and still playing it dont think you really know arpgs at all and it shows torchlight 1 2 and 3 and the new one was sub par at most id even put tian quest up with d2 honest other then poe nothing beats d2 and lod
D2 is the only game that nailed loot drops, dont need a lootfilter, tons of fun items to find. But everything else is pretty bad by todays standard, really wish we could mod D2R, would be awsome.
Any game with scaling world deserves to be on the lowest tier. Whats the point in getting loot upgrades and skills and leveling up if everything just scales up with you. You might as well not have levels and loot at all except for le dopamine
the 2 main end game systems do not scale with you
I'm on the team that has played grim dawn since the beginning. Today I decided to install Diablo 4 to try it out. I couldn't even play for 1 hour. Those who played better things like path of exile and grim dawn will hardly return to diablo 4. Unfortunately, many mistakes were made in the design of diablo 4. Diablo 4 is for a more childish and superficial audience.
Don't sleep on The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing. I know the name is a mouthful and makes it sound like shovelware, but it's truly a hidden gem!
Man the way this video just ends after washing machine... this is some progressive Avant-garde content. I cant believe how delusional are the D2 fanatics xD (D2 is my fav game from my childhood, but its clearly dated nowadays. And btw, the influential masterpiece was D1, we like to say is D2 because it aged better)
"avant-garde" 🤡
D2 endagame is the item chase: gg rares, gg jewels, perfect uniques, high runes, tyrael's might, etc. (real item chase not just hh and mb), baal runs, chaos sanctuary, cow level for bases, building different builds, key farming, dclone farming (blizz kinda ruined this recently), lower kurast, trav., actual party play in some activities, pvp, terror zones.
Claiming that it has no end game is....i dont know what to say. The key thing about the game is that it is all about player choice. Not sure that the endgame mapping in POE is better as I often get bored of it (over 15k hours in poe). To each their own I suppose. Only thing that actually trigged me is dismissing all us players who LOVE d2 and can't find a game that does what we like about d2 better as simply ppl who play the game bc it has diablo in the name.
Great vid regardless.
Edit: I also think Grim Dawn is A Tier and Last Epoch is B Tier. C tier is my books stands for CRAP lol. You get a C in school and everyone knows thats not a good.
you must smoke some serious crack if you say C in school is not good
D is still a passing grade, C is average - which is what LE is, at best
can't talk about grim dawn as i never played it
you're also probably not looking for a game like D2, but for the time back then when you started playing D2
You’re saying d2 end game is “all about player choice” because players had to create their own end game, because there is nothing to do.
There is a difference between item chase, gear chase etc, and end game content to then use that gear for. That's what d2 is lacking
D2 players just cant move on.. your favorite game is bad kid, deal with it, be better.
@@Leonardofontana11 Love your assumptions and how quick you are to label random ppl as "kid" because they have a different take. Good stuff.
d2 is the greatest game of all time and only people who took a spiritual journey in quantum physics will understand
😂😂😂
Dont know if it is on anyone's radar, but Ghostlore is one indie game i enjoyed a lot
that game was good I just didn't play it enough to make a full judgement
Devs already talked about your criticism with the skill tree
They said the numbers would shock you on how many people max out all of the basic skills.
So...they are stupid.
Lol
Where is Undecember and The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing?
IAoVH is such a hidden gem. I think it's completely overlooked because the name makes it sound like forgettable trash. Honestly it was one of the best Arpg experiences I've ever had!
I liked d3 more than d4 bad
One of the worst things about D3 was the skill system (even though I don't hate it honestly) and I had super high hopes for D4 because they were going back to a skill tree system. But to steal a term from the immortal Alkaizer they still somehow managed to mess it up by creating the first ever arpg "skill twig".....
D3 owned d4
Some of the skills in D3 are actually way better. I just hated how the majority of runes to modify skills also modify its elements. Why not put that in items and let the skill be an element of itself?
They both suck TBH. But for different reasons, D3 was intended to be Blizz's next cash cow, when the AH debacle happened they didn't turn things around trying to find alternate ways to monetize the game, so it was natural that after Reaper released (which was cool at the time) the game would go into maintenance mode, so it was the situation that once you finished playing every class at least once there was nothing else to explore (that was like 8 years ago btw). D4 has everything going for it, it was built with monetization in mind (although not a great model IMO) and it has a huge team behind it, but the devs are so clueless, they are either desperately trying to seem original to the point where they prefer to implement something worse than the alternative (refer to resistances) or they legitimately have no idea what people look for on this genre, like the terrible monster density and badly designed gear progression at game launch.
I have over 900 hours played in Inquisitor, I think it's deserves C tier. I would put it between D4 and LE.
THE WARP... WILL EAT ME... ALIVE!
D2>Grim Dawn> Everything else. I don't know for everyone else but the biggest factor and what gave the most popularity with Arpgs is loot and being meaningful. Like any addiction to carry on playing and keeping you hooked you have to feel rewarded is a big factor of a great Arpg. And these two games do it best.
Nice list. Deserves more views. Good for anyone getting into the genre. I would add that there are 3 major D2 mods. XL is in last place in my opinion. Still good but i would say Path of Diablo is better, and Project Diablo 2 is the best one. They are all worth getting to hell on at least one class though.
You did forget Titan Quest and Sacred, but I assume you have not played those. I would rate them both around a C+
As for Grim Dawn, I 100% agree with B and maybe even B+. The default game is a big fat 'ok'. Again is worth pl;aying through, but the mod "Reign of Terror" adds all D2 music, all classes, all acts, with graphics and sounds and items and its a solid A tier experience. Its fan made and still updated and has been developed for years. Im pretty proud of them for how well they did it.
Hey, finally someone I see agreeing with my take that D2 would be completely dumpstered if it came out today. Surprised about Infinite.
As someone that never played D2 on it's prime (20 years ago) I say that this game is pretty bad on it's base form, is old and it shows, people who put D2 at the top are the ones driven by nostalgia for being the OG.
Hello👻 I think D2 has one of the best soundtracks in gaming, which is really such a big part of the game. Also the sounds design and the art of the game are just so good. It reeks of great talent and no other arpg comes even close in that aspect. Its true that there is no cookie-cutter end game but u can still find things to do. Im playing 1.14b lod for the last 5 years trying to complete a grail and push a character to 99. The game design is so good, that i feel every click has its meaning. Its an old game with little QoL which makes it engaging and i dont feel like a bot while playing it.
If only Grim Dawn had a way better engine, I would rate it as clearly the best for single player.
Just to add a comment about TLI: The graphics / art style require a huge adjustment if youre coming from POE. Its a fantastic game but I cannot grind it like I can with POE or the Diablo franchise. It makes me go blind.
Lily is coo, but this list kind of sucks.
-D2 is like really, really bad by today's standards. The inventory management, missing melee attacks like an old school turn-based D&D game, etc. Easily the worst arpg I've ever played. It's the only one where melee combat actually somehow feels bad.
-PoE is shit once you get to mapping, although I do enjoy the leveling experience. Also, just the fact you cannot go into this game and make your own build as you go, prevents it for being S or A tier. That is the best part of arpg's. Hopefully PoE 2 fixes this.
-Grim Dawn is S tier for me. It is the quintessential arpg.
-The only one she really got right was D4 being dogshit, I think we can all agree on that.
Basically, you enjoy campaign content. POE is at its absolute best when you get to maps.
Totally agree
- POE by far the best ARPG
- I would switch D2R and Grim Dawn, D2R is old but just feels good/right to play (didnt play in olden days, only resurrected) and Grim Dawn, doesnt have clunky combat but has bland visually combat, its like text game, but really good game.
- D4 like D3, good gameplay, terrible game with nothing to do
- Last Epoch is great for playing campaign and discovering what you can craft, beside that, game is empty, so treat it as some singleplayer game you complete and leave
Great list
Can somebody tell what's the soundtrack/s of this video?
It's the Path of Exile soundtrack. Lioneye's Watch is the track. Composer posted playlist here on youtube. Good song, but I had to eventually turn off cuz spent so much time in-town. :)
@@inspiredbydata2826the arpeggio section is just epic
You forgot Torchlight 2 which also sucks. Also as an avid PoE player I have it as S tier as well. However, I truly wish they would optimize the game engine better. Having a dope PC just to watch it drop to 5 fps in PoE because mob density gets so high when blasting juices maps is annoying. One thing D4 gets right. It pretty much never drops frames.
PoE engine is both pretty bad and at the same time impressive af.
When watching Empy vids where they try and get as many projectiles on screen at one time, and there being hundreds of thousands of them without client crashing, that is impressive. But also true what you said about optimization for regular play
@iFoss lmao, the POE engine won't thrive, but it will survive.
Was surprising not to see Undecember in the list
Thanks for saving me the time of trying to get into Lost Ark. I don’t really play mmos the game looks good but I’m playing every ARPG I can get my hands on. Last Epoch, Diablo, POE style no time or much interest in most other genres. I do like Divinity original sin 2, Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous type games CRPGs but again no time. Also a negative and only problem I have with Torchlight Infinite is that it’s not on console that is what is seriously hurting Torchlight Infinite. Just got to the end and have to mention Wolcen and Warhammer 40k Inquisitor Martyr both are actually really good as is Undecember.
Path of Exile is the BEST arpg, but also the most over rated. Good list Lily, agree with most of it.
D4 is D for D 4 bad
I started playing D2R this year, the game is definitely a masterpiece for its time, I don't think it makes sense to compare it with a game like POE. I would just take it out of the list. I would never play D2R if I wanted to try an ARPG, I'm playing it because it's POE's grandpa.
Modded D2 in the other hand its fair, It's being "developed" and I've heard it's pretty good, a lot of balance done and qol added by the community. Unfortunately it's not compatible with the remastered version so I can't try it.
ppl need to give a second try in undecember, the game changed so much since release I would put as tier B+ maaaybe A. The game has a lot of QoL features that I would love to see in some of those ARPG but ofc is not perfect.
Last epoch finally getting a real take.
It was overrated as soon as it came out. I think I got 80 hours and haven’t had much desire to return.
@@brandonkruse6412 LE has had this problem for a while, amongst other things, like class balance, they had very good ideas about how they wanted to develop certain archetypes but kinda fell short on others, for instance Forge Guard is close to being one of the worst designed classes I've ever seen on a game, whereas I think Warlock is complete genius. It's understandable that the endgame would fall behind on an indie game that had to do Char design, graphics, optimization and arguably the best item system in the whole genre atm.
Last Epoch is a weird placement for me. The strengths mentioned are pretty much the most important things for an ARPG to get right. So they hit that, but somehow its still worse than D4?
Surprised to see Last Epoch that low considering all the hype around the game.
I'd like to try it at some point, but I'll definitely wait at least until the endgame is sorted.
I agree with almost everything said in this list, although I think LE is better than D4, although not much better, but to be fair in your list it wasn't to far below either, but the fact that LE is developed by like 10 guys at home and not in San Francisco in a huge office gives it a massive edge above D4.
One of the things I will put POE has against, is that the age is showing on the character design aspect (compared to D4 specifically, although D4 chars are not exactly that appealing either) , and that you need to swipe for your char to not look like a Hobo, also melee is trash GGG pls fix.
They can't fix melee because of character design. A melee skill needs a separate animation for each character.Ranged animations can be used on all characters. So melee dev is much more expensive (time and money) than ranged dev. The know it's a mistake, and made sure POE 2 doesn't have that problem. I wonder if it's something they can fix after POE 2 comes out. One of those "small" design choices early on that turned out to be huge.
@@aarons3014 Yeah, I mean I heard they explanation about why it was a difficult task to accomplish, but it was understood by the community that the reason why melee wasn't being fixed in POE1 is because POE2 was going to be good for it, but when they announced that both games would be coexisting they removed that as an excuse. Also the problem with melee is not really due to animations, at least not entirely, is the power level of the skills themselves, and the fact that for instance strike skills are artificially nerfed by all of them having a negative AS multiplier, and Slams being nerfed to the ground for actually no reason, because they were clunky AF to play and still worse than most spell builds in the endgame.
Oh dang I've been on a poe bender for 3 leagues now. I forgot about inquisitor martyr. That game is fun, easy but fun. I can see why you might not be so into it, since you're usually looking for a challenge. But sometimes I just wanna shoot slugs into chaos demons and not think much about it
list is missing Victor Vran, very fun and unique game!
Sounds made up
@@ataridcmade up?
We all know that any arpg game is better than diablo 4. It's better to forget that diablo 4 exists. I'm going to be more honest and say that Diablo 4 is one of the biggest failures in the gaming industry.
Casuals.... thats me now. It's all just about available time. You said it well
I agree with this tier list except for D3, I would put that before D4 & LE, but great stuff.
I played chronicon before d4 launched and i couldnt help comparing this $5 game to D4 and how D4 was worse lol.
A very good list. I also think TLI is crazy good it just needs some more tuning and attention. I like it a lot more than Last Epoch or D4. But ofc nothing comes close to POE. No matter what some ppl say.
Played Torchlight 2, but not infinite, thanks for the rec! Poor Wolcen devs, I remember launch.
good tier list, but d1 should be in there imo. its the founder of arpg and it is a game that i still go back to with some well done mods (the hell 2). maybe you wanna give few hours into it :D
Hahahaha what a load of bullcrap especially D3 and Inquisitor Martyr in D tier list
TLI over Last Epoch and Grim Dawn? xDDDDDDDDD
baldurs gate dark alliance?
Don’t forget dark alliance 2, champions of norrath, and champions return to arms. So goooooood
TLI is very personal opinion, graphics are not for everyone, there is paywall to play new hero traits which is big no go to me - better to pay for stashes or pets (which is also sad) than for new heroes. Skill trees are very boring, linking your skills with supports is literally completely stolen from PoE. It has very repetitive endgame as well - maybe fun for few days, but not with new heroes being unplayable, to compare i am not spending bucks in PoE every league, and its a game, which gave me fun for 10 years. Seasonal mechanics are the biggest and only upside for me, it has some interesting ideas. But its still mobile game in the end with very childish graphics.
this is all personal opinion
Have you played Titan Quest? I think its better than Grim Dawn even though its older. Plus Titan Quest 2 has been announced.
i played a lot of poe and yes i understand your very low rate on diablo 3 i also understand and it's a fact path of exile is way better than Diablo 3 by a lot of ways but i don't know why i really liked this game
I really played arpg with Diablo 3 i loved it at first i only did the campaign and i was a beginner but i loved it more time later i discovered the end game and the reaper of souls extension. it's good but not like the campaign. I had a lot of fun playing this game but it's a game that i like only for the campaign so i guess i can't compare it to poe really
Didn't played Diablo 3 since i played poe so i guess maybe nostalgia is speaking also
no d3 is way more fun, but it's a completely different game than poe, poe u have to put the wiki next to u at all times, read every map before u do it while playing while d3 u just play the game, run grifts and have fun, especially season 28 and 30 where they added the altar of sacrifice, u basically sacrifice the most rare items in the game to it and it gives u permanent buffs (for the season) like no level req on items so u can level alts or your pets automatically collect and disenchants magic and rare items. so it's not nostalgia despite the similarities they have, they're just completely different style of games now like apples and oranges
@@post_rot Cap. If you have to put wiki next to you at all times, you're just a slow learner. That's fine tho, take your time.
"you just run play and have fun", sure that can be fun for a bit. It can also be fun actually thinking about stuff and getting invested in your goals.
@@iFoss they're both really fun actually, im saying they cant really be compared also there's no way u remember every little mod alteration orbs can roll on flasks or every corruption implicit for every item or what type of damage every boss does, u do need the wiki to play
@@post_rot I do remember every mod on flasks. I do know every damage type of every stand alone boss. And you don't exactly need the wiki up at all times for the things you don't remember, do you?
@@iFoss wym that's exactly why u need it
I feel violated by this list
Titan Quest?
I recently tried torchlight. I was like ill play for 10 mins see if i like it, played for 2 hrs lol
Will you ever play Titans Quest?
Solid list. For D4 to step up its game going into the future, I agree the skill tree needs a complete revision. The tree (twig) needs a lot more meat and the skills need a lot more variation to them (akin to Last Epoch) because a constant bloat of new Legendary Aspects will just make it impossible to find the Aspects you need for your character to get going. It also needs to sort out its numerics and scaling as well because for whatever reason, with not much "real" changes to your character if feels like you suddenly go from doing 400k damage to 40 million damage. Some weird exponential scaling going on in the background.
Baseg, seasons in Grim Yawn are fun but its not much different from base game tbh.
I wish there were more fun arpgs to play in between poe leagues, actually tried hero siege for the first time and it reminds me alot like d2 but more to do and S4 comes out soon
The fuckup part of torchlight infinite is the fucking 200+ ping for SA
playing alone doesn't connect you to a server for gameplay so ping doesn't matter
ping doesnt matter..sometime game have issue show me 400 ping its just the same with when i play at 50 ping..i reach lvl100 on both ping
I'm always on 1000 ping and the game's fine
Is this just game whot you was playing???? Beacos I think you miss fwe titles. And try play patch of exile on console you maybe change mind 😂😂😂😂. For me all Arpg is fun to play. Well done saying Lost ark is MMO. And closer to D2 is POE and Titan Quest
Deserved place for LE
grim dawn Grimarillion mod is a must-try. also ComboMod is innovative and definitely a must-try.
What d2 still does great is the look of the game. Its stylized look looks way better than any other arpg I've seen. If D4 was launched with D2 graphics (old ones, not reforged shit)it would have looked 100xtimes better. But other than that, D2 just has a lot of out dated mechanics.
I just don't think we should say that the graphics doesn't really matter, when people spend hundreds of dollars on skins in POE and other games.
Project diablo 2 is so good now.. its unreal! Play it now!
I have over 1000 hours into PoE. But my main problem is the leagues and new contents every damn months. I still play my old character, but it become SSF because people into league, don't want to reroll 2 min to trade. That's pure BS. It become overhelming when you can't play it 10 hours per day. I hate f2P crap games so much
💗Nox 💗POE💗
I would put LE in B tier simply for the dev team and how committed they are to making a great game. And so far they've delivered. Otherwise solid list.
maybe if it were a tier list based on dev teams...
Undecember must be Swamp Ass tier
I thought undecember was fine mostly, it's just way different now so I couldn't include it
Too bad Undecember was not included. a close third for me after PoE and LE.
I wanted to give it a shot until I've seen the abysmal P2W character boosts they've introduced this season :( It's basically equivalent of "get the free lv80 PoE character for 25 bucks at the start of new season" - wild af
bots of exile wins.
nioh 2 is A tier
Not even an isometric ARPG
beef
I can see your view about Diablo 2 if you focus more on gameplay, mechanics, and overall amount of content. It is definitely a different game than PoE, one that you play more for the experience and not to grind content infinitely. Everyone approaches and experiences games differently and that is great. For me though, Diablo 2 was a life changing game. And no it's not nostalgia since I only first played it a few years ago. But no other game has made me feel the way it did. The music, the voice acting, the story, so much character and charm. These are things a lot of people just can't pick up on or care about. It is a work of art. I can't say that about most of the games on this list. I would put it S tier and PoE A tier with the rest of these below those. But again, we're all different and this is your list, so I respect that. Just my 2 cents.
one minute in ur video and im so fkn bored already damn, i'll skip ur opinion thank you.
PoE went down two places in my list ever since they atopped caring about balance, its main pros is only the amount of content
so 10+ years ago ago?
@@dslily no maybe like 5
*BASED.*
22:33 HUH?
my tier list is POE S tier, Grim Dawn A tier, and everything else F tier
W take
Real and bayzd
baseg
d3 may not have much build diversity but it's the fastest game of them all so it's the most fun
d4 is not even remotely close to the fastest
My top 5
PoE
Sacred Fallen
D2
Chaosbane
Victor Vran