One thing I really enjoy about Portal's puzzles is the sense of progression you get, as if each puzzle is comprised of a few smaller puzzles like "How do I get there?" followed by "How do I get that cube" then "Now how do I turn that off?". The small solutions help you feel like you're actually making progress along the way instead of spending a long time thinking or trying different things before getting the solution all at once.
Perhaps a nice compromise between linear and intertwined puzzles is the optimal way to go about it. Baba Is You also often have puzzles that consist of two linear tasks. The first will use one of the game mechanics as an obstacle, and the next will ask you to use that same mechanic in a creative new way to solve the chamber.
This has also held true for practically all of my favorite workshop chambers as well. Though in harder maps the mini goals are usually harder to come about, they are very cool to find for yourself when you eventually do so.
i tried the chamber out for myself, and honestly it was pretty fun and better than most of the other ones. though theres are 2 things i noticed after watching the full video. 1. you can use the tractor beam to gain height, skipping a part of the chamber idk what its called, but you can basically use the tractor beam to fly. if you jump into one, then slowly raise the height of the portal, it will cause the tractor beam to slowly rise. as a result, you start going up too. this allows you to skip using the beam and blue gel all together, landing you at the top platform. you could fix this by removing unnecessary white tiles, causing the player to not be abe to increase the height of the beam 2. the blue gel isnt really used you dont even need the blue gel to get to the top platform, by simply waiting the tractor beam will deliver you there, and you can make your way out of the beam. a way to fix this would be to put a glass panel covering the direction the beam is going, forcing the player to drop down and bounce on the blue gel. all in all it was still pretty fun though, nice job!
Thanks for testing the chamber! I'm new to the game so I don't know most of the tricks you can do with portals. I will fix the shortcut, thanks for the feedback!
@@Cah-Games I found an unintended solution as well: 1. Place a portal on the wall behind the pedestal 2. Drop down and place a portal on the wall facing the cube dropper 3. Using the blue gel, you can jump through the portal on the wall Takes a few attempts, but I did it and cheesed it. At the time, I wasn't sure if it was unintended, but I know now it is.
One note about your advice that non-intended solutions should be avoided and removed. In principle this is good. However my most memorable experience from the portal mod portal:reloaded was on a puzzle where I knew I wasn’t figuring out the proper solution, but Ide realised a sequence of really precise movements and portal placements that could cheese the level. It took me a few attempts and Once I did it the announcer said “that was not how you were supposed to complete the puzzle, but you did it anyway, congratulations!” It felt like Ide been clever and found a secret. I think alternate solutions are a positive thing as long as they are similar or more difficult to achieve as the regular solution.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Doing things in an unintended way feels so good, it's one of my favorite things in all of gaming, not even just puzzles. If you find an unintended, but difficult enough, solution to your puzzle, and you still think it's fun... leave it in! Maybe make it more obscure, or make it more of an actual solution, or (like your example) add some kind of indicator that the solution is different from the true path, but if you can keep that "aha!" moment that someone might get from solving your puzzle in that way, absolutely do so. Then again, I'm no game designer. This is just coming from me as a player.
I agree, and must note this "not intended" aspect can be a good thing as it engages player creativity and a good time is had by all -- not to mention this is how rocket jumps were discovered!
Removing non intended solutions is the same philosophy Nintendo uses and they end up patching out unintended solutions or glitches in their games, even if they're single player experiences. I really dislike this and agree with you for this reason. Unintended solutions should be encouraged as they promote player creativity and allow greater freedom, something speedrunners have been doing for years.
That kind of thing is welcome in "problem" solving games, where the intended solution is only one of many, and the game encourages you to outsmart it. But the way I see it, puzzles should only allow the solutions implemented by the designers themselves.
Ah yes - a shortcut as mentioned in the video. I assume OP just made the portal-wall less mide with a gap above the goo so this becomes imposdible. Thats also a thing to consider. Let people, who DONT know the solution try to solve it if possible - otherwise await feedback, which is technically the same thing.
Didn't expect to see you under this video lol, but yeah I really liked the way the video explained things, especially since he linked the test chamber in the description, so (for people who have the game) it actually almost makes the video interactive which is a pretty great way of teaching things. I felt like after I played the test chamber I understood what he was talking about even better than if I had just listened to the video
I found an unintended solution where I was able to carry both the cube and myself through repeated portals that nudged the excursion funnel ever so slightly while I was inside it. I transferred between the two walls and ended up able to get to the topmost platform without the bouncing gel or the reversed polarity of the excursion funnel. Twas a fun non-standard solution, and I'm glad you kept it in the game.
I have spent a lot of time designing my own puzzle games. My process is like this: 1. Figure out an interesting interaction between some of the available game mechanics 2. Design a puzzle in such a way that invites the player to discover the same interaction you did through playful experimentation, but not in a way that solves the puzzle immediately 3. Require the player to use a little bit of planning (and previously learned tricks) in addition to understanding the interaction, or require them to spot an opportunity for the interaction in an unintuitive place 4. Ensure that all strategies not involving the interaction, and strategies that would be unreasonably precise or inefficient, are blatantly shown to arrive at dead-ends in two steps or less
As a puzzle game developer the first thing I do when trying to make a good puzzle is to start with a contradiction. Something like "Do A to solve the puzzle, but A also activates B, which blocks the exit". This throws off the players intuition and forces them to think outside the box. Of course the designer has to implement a way for the player to get around this seemingly impossible obstacle and this is where I feel like making a puzzle becomes a puzzle itself. Also, not only do you need to test it thoroughly on your own, you absolutely need other people to test it too. Knowing the solution beforehand changes your whole view of the puzzle and for someone who has never seen the room before, the experience is completely different. You'll be surprised to see where people want to go and what they try to do. This is true not only for puzzle games but game design in general.
I fixed some shortcuts since I released the video, so the level you see in the video is slightly different than the one in the steam workshop (but the way you solve it is the same!) Also check out the whole collection of "A Box And A Button" puzzles I made so far: steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2899955722
I still found another solution. By jumping off the bouncy gel I can make it into a portal that was placed on the illuminated wall and made it back to the other side with a portal placed aiming at the spot where I need to catch the dropping box. I legit thought this was the solution and was sad it relied on a bit of weird feeling platforming (the jump into the portal is sorta tight and you hit your head on the overhang roof)
Breath of the Wild shrine puzzles reminded me a lot of Portal and Portal 2 puzzles. However, in almost every shrine, there are multiple possible solutions and yet none feel so trivial that you feel disappointed. In many cases, it's hard to tell if you came up with a solution the designers intended or merely allowed.
First of all, very good video! You covered the basics of puzzle design nicely. I really appreciate the emphasis on how to make the puzzles interesting and satisfying to solve, rather than the typical puzzle clarity advice (make connections clear, make sure lighting is good) I see on Discord servers and UA-cam videos alike. I feel you explained the concept of non-linearity in puzzles brilliantly intuitive and unique way. One thing I would say is that I don’t feel you necessarily need a wrong intuitive solution as the backbone to a good puzzle. In many fantastic P2 maps, I find that the intended solution is more often disguised through multiple re-uses of elements and connections, rather than through a decoy solution. I think this “reuse” approach is also what made puzzle designing a lot easier for me. While your method of “Think of an obvious approach, make that approach impossible in a non-obvious way, implement a more roundabout approach” is by no means invalid, I think it is a lot harder (for me, at least) to have to come up with two similar solutions and reject one of them. Moreover, you don’t really have any way of seeing if your other roundabout solution is hidden enough, or even that creative of a move in the first place. Likewise, trying to create longer and harder puzzles isn’t all that practical with this technique, since you are more often trying to prevent solutions rather than force new ones. What I like to do instead is “think of the main ‘crux’ move you wish to implement, think of a setup that forces that move and is as open as you can, think of all the moves that you could also implement with a setup, find a separate setup which forces that move, rinse and repeat.” In an ideal world, I manage to force a puzzle which uses most/all the states of the setup in a longer or more intricate sequence. As such, because (with a good setup) there are far more states to consider, you then naturally have the solution hidden in plain sight, and the decoy solutions usually occur naturally, without me having to specifically incorporate them into the puzzles. Hopefully this comment wasn’t too long, though it’s not every day I get to nerd out about something I’ve been doing for three years on a video randomly recommended to me by the algorithm :P The tips you gave are very insightful and are bound to help someone in their puzzles, and for a first map, yours was far better than the usual quality on the P2 workshop. Great video and good luck in future mapping!
I can attest that Dolphiner's philosophy is very generative. I think that the modern rhetoric of "reuses" isn't actually incompatible with the strategy described in the video. The idea of a use and reuse is that an initial (and perhaps more intuitive) use of an element/structure within the puzzle provides an initial context for that piece, which is then accepted by the player. Then, if a reuse of that element/structure is sufficiently different in nature than the first use, a player will be challenged to step back and recognize that the piece of the map they had used before has a greater power than they had first assumed. A player that is forever stuck in the initially established context of an element/structure will never be able to solve the puzzle; stepping away from that context and approaching the element from a different angle will yield results. (Comparable to the false-but-intuitive solution v.s. the true-but-non-intuitive solution presented in the video) This is how I design all my puzzles as well, but the method tends to induce longer, more complex puzzles, which can be difficult to balance; (and have long development times, haha) I hadn't really thought about the style proposed in the video and I'd like to try to make some smaller crisp puzzles with it, as long as I can keep my misdirection passive and not active. I'll add that I agree with Dolphiner that this video hits on some critical points about Portal 2 puzzles that often go unsaid, which is great; the points at the end, such as putting effort into emphasizing what is and isn't possible mechanically to avoid players thinking that their failures are simply due to an inability to meet a mechanical skill check rather than the real reason of approaching the puzzle incorrectly, are very important and well-said.
Genuinely a jaw-dropping intended solution, was very impressed by it. I will say though, that I was completely taken by surprise when you could look over the giant wall at 5:50. One of the things the game devs noticed when originally making portal 1 is that players rarely looked up at the ceiling, so they had to remake a bunch of chambers to put all the important things much closer to eye level. Great chamber though! Best I’ve seen in years! Excellent lighting, too!
I just watched this video during my lunch break at work and was eager to leave a like and a sub. With big surprise did I notice that you only have 61 subscribers??? I enjoy listening to your voice and your way of narrating is also fitting. I'll leave a sub, hoping yout channel grows! Great content.
I like the idea of 2 opposing teams having to solve symmetrical puzzles like a tf2/csgo + portal map. each team has doors in their base you have to hold open with key/cube on button to have a chance of pushing mid flag to end base...
I just played the test chamber and am writing this before watching the video. It was a nice puzzle, but because of the part where you have to jump to open portals, it took me 10 minutes to complete the test. Other than that, it was easy. "I watched the video and realized that I found an easier way." First, open a portal where the middle button is located and of course, open a temporary portal to go through Place the Second Portal: Open the second portal across from where the cube will drop, Jump into the Portal Using the Blue Gel on the Ground. Return through the Middle Portal: As you emerge, direct the middle portal towards the pushing laser and open portal. Press the Button: Now, press the button to release the cube. Wait for the Laser to Pull the Cube Towards It. Position a Portal for the Cube: Open a portal in a location where you can easily retrieve the cube once it is accessible. Retrieve the Cube, Place It on the Button, and Complete the Test.
The first step to designing a good puzzle is to gain some perspective on what differentiates good ones from bad ones. In the landfill of the workshop, even mediocre maps can appear good when juxtaposed to garbage. The 2nd step is learning how to implement ideas and concepts into a tangible 3D layout (on top of coming up with original ideas in the first place). Without a proper level geometry to contain it, concepts cannot be manifested properly. The 3rd step is trial and error, and patience. Unless you’re willing to put in the effort, and the many hours, days, or even months to bring your idea to life in the best possible way, it will always be released in an unfinished state. Keep going young padawan, and maybe someday you might make a good puzzle.
I solved the puzzle before watching the solution, and used a different solution. I placed a portal next to the cube dropper button, and then a portal facing the cube dropper on the wall. I bounced off the gel into the portal facing the dropper, connected that portal to the tractor beam, dropped the cube and then reversed the beam to pull it back. It took a few attempts to bounce off the gel into the portal on the wall.
I definitely didn’t solve it the intended way. I didn’t use the tractor to get up to the top platform and just bounced up there after jumping through a portal. It took me a few tries to get the portal placed that you use to catch the cube with the tractor beam, but I got it in the end.
I haven't played the puzzle myself, but from the preview you provided, my solution is to use the tractor beam to go up to the platform on top of the illuminated panel, and have the portal come from the far wall to the spot just below the cube dropper. Drop to the platform with the pedestal button and press it, drop down to the floor button and hold until the cube is on the right side. No bounce jel needed, and no need to visit the other side of the room. Edit: looked at the current workshop preview, and it appears you have fixed that
I didn't even use beam) I just placed blue portal high (Just like you placed orange) and then i used white panels at the floor near to floor button. Jump then place portal just below to gain momentum then place orange portal on the wall in the middle of the flight and bounce off the gel
One thing I did to make my levels unique is to add circuitry using cubes, pressure plates, and tractor beams all inaccessible to the player. This can create irreversible effects for the level. In one of mine, I had it where a player had to retrieve 3 laser cubes that were fairly easy to get. They routed them through 3 cones, but then a bunch of panels moved, cutting off all easy solutions, forcing the player to use the lasers diagonally. I think I made it too hard because it didn’t get good ratings.
This video was great at explaining the puzzle creation process!, I absolutely loved the example you made since it really would've taken much more time to figure out and would have felt rewarding once you understand it. The thumbnail you chose was really good too, even if it may be simple!
Chamber solution spoilers! I backed off from the high platform and placed the cube grabbing portal before bouncing off the gel back to the high platform. Fun level.
Another thing I'd like to point out: The solution should require minimal skill to perform and not make the player question if something was intended (i.e. "barely visible portal surface"). I really like your puzzle here for that reason: the solution is not immediately obvious, but very easy to perform.
Fun, entertaining video. I agree with most of the tips. One thing that I'll add is that P2 campaign isn't really the best example of well designed puzzles, as it might be of a well designed game. One thing I noticed your chamber lacked was element reuse, which is the core of most of excellent puzzles nowadays. The button near the exit is only used once to retrieve the cube, but once you retrieve the cube you're done. A way to spice up your chamber would be to actually give the player the cube right away, but prevent him from getting it to the button. Force the player to reverse the funnel to get the cube on the button, and then get the cube on the button so that the player uses the funnel for a final move.
This brings up a great point with the element re-use. I'm in the works of revising a test of mine, and V1 still uses my chosen major element (a light bridge) a lot. Demon Arisen's "How to Make Great Test Chambers" series brings this up in episode 3 IIRC. Honestly, the series in general is quite useful and is one of the biggest reasons as to why I chose to revise the chamber. Either way, I also believe element re-use is extremely important when designing a test chamber, among other things.
@@cz_Fenix Demon Arisen videos might be a bit dated, specially when he talks about the difference between major and minor elements (which to me is a bit irrelevant), but many of the concepts he talks about still hold true to this day. There's a ton of potential for complexity inside a puzzle that the campaign never fully explored, mostly due to having to spend a considerable amount of time introducing new elements, and also to allow every player to complete each map in a reasonable time.
Finally someone besides demon arisen makes a video like this because how are all of these people: "you see this junk i just made which i didn't playtest!? Boy this will get many views and it'll be the best map in the workshop." Or what? Also i wish you the best in making puzzles in the future atleast you try to make good puzzles :)
One custom Test Chamber I played did some non-Euclidean shenanigan where the initial room has a cube-only button, that somehow gets swapped to a room with a universal button while you're retrieving the cube from the dead-end corridor. Talk about nonlinear. That was about a decade ago, and I still have no idea how the author managed that!
They didn't use the inbuilt editor. The hammer editor has world portals, which are basically portals without the portal effects and that are customizable in size.
@@Night-Wolf The hammer editor is the tool Valve used for pretty much all the levels, It's much more complicated and unintuitive. That being said, it allows for a higher skill ceiling, you can place whatever models and entities you want. You can do a bunch more scripting node setups via Entity IO and Squirrel code. World Portals were only used a couple of times in the game, they were mainly to work around engine limitations when it comes to the size of source engine levels.
Each portal puzzle (or test chamber) author can make it how they want, but I heard at least main game of portal and portal 2 test chambers have multiple solutions.
i have over 900 hours in portal 2 most of it is in the level editor but I have never been good at non linier puzzles and it really annoys me this has helped me think about level design differently making the puzzle is a puzzle in its self
why is youtube recommending me so many channels with little to no subs i honestly thought that this channel had 2k at least keep up the great work tho :)
i just b-hopped from the portal surface down where the blue gel was, all the way up to the top, b-hopped, got enough distance, and just went in the sky, easy way of fixing it is: remove blue gel (intended solution didn't even need it) or make the top parts un-portalable
Have you ever wanted more options in the level editor for portal 2 like to make multiple chambers in the same map or change the style to Overgrown or different style Well then look for bee2 it can get a lot of those things done it's supposed to give you more options in the portal 2 level editor but be aware these new options and power abilities could cause errors to happen in your puzzle like leaks map errors building the puzzles It's most likely for leaks to happen when you're in Overgrown style
I played the puzzle blind and wrote down my thoughts as I went: walk into room, at least one moving thing - tractor beam see a button - what does it do? press button, look around - it drops a cube into goo explore area with goo can move tractor beam under the cube dispenser, but can't get back to the button tractor beam is going wrong way, can't get it to rescue the cube can direct tractor beam into itself, then move one of the portals can use this to get to vantage point can use the bouncy goo to bounce up and down from the vantage point, and get a shot at the wall facing the path of the cube, putting the tractor beam in its path okay, how do I now get the cube?? If I place any portals, it will fall If I place the portal pointing at the cube slightly higher each time, I can pull it higher OR SIDEWAYS and I can get it from the recessed wall to the wall that's next to me, too! okay but I still can't get to it and then return hmm.... If I get it to the top left corner of the first wall, then the portal on the bottom left corner of the opposite wall will catch it! Did it! I then watched the video WHAT THE FUCK THE BUTTON REVERSES THE POLARITY?????
wow, i am really impressed. that is the most nonlinear solution i can think of, but the bouncy kinda gel feels out of place. other than that, very good puzzle!
If you like puzzle/exploration games, you should absolutely play Outer Wilds. It's a solar system mystery game with multiple intertwined puzzles over several planets which characteristics change over time. It's mind blowing ! And after playing it, you will lament and wonder when you'll be able to find another game like it.
Cool puzzel, even though i think i did none of the tings you did to solve it. You can place a portal where the beam needs to go and then jump through it with the blue gel. And I used a different strat to get the cube out of the beam, but the way you did it is probably faster.
I managed to complete it completely wrong, I placed the orange portal in the spot where if there was a tractor beam it would catch the cube, and then placed another portal near the button, and then jumped in the orange portal using the blue gel and then moved the blue portal to the tractor beam then pressed the button, then stood on the weighted button which transported the cube to me
Thank you so much! But, not to bother, but could you please recreate it in Hammer, and add the abandoned-style like in the first tests of Portal 2 please? Like, pipes sticking out of the walls, water dripping from a pipe, holes in the ceiling, Etc. 😁😁 If not, I'll learn Hammer, and make it myself!!
What would you suggest to a player who does not enjoy puzzles? I really struggle to understand how that works. I can "solve" them, or sometimes I can't, but the emotional response remain identical - frustration in the process, and annoyance at the solution when it is finally discovered.
@@SashaS-s2z well the frustration is definitely relatable. Being stuck in front of an apparently impossible problem is part of solving a good puzzle. If you're feeling annoyed after you solve a puzzle it could honestly be the designer's fault: a classic example is when some elements of the puzzle are hidden or their purpose is not clear, in that case when you figure out the solution you're just gonna feel like you got scammed. Instead I find very satisfying to solve puzzles with a simple structure but with a solution that requires thinking out of the box. Talos Principle for example is full of those type of puzzle
I made a very linear map that makes you do the same tasks twice but you progress at the same time. Not sure how much time you have but I’d love for you to give it a try and have feedback on it.
Hey love this video, definitely make more chambers! ill play all of them. Anyways I played the chamber before you spoiled it and this was the route I found most intuitive to me (though that might be abnormal since i used to speedrun portal 2 a lot), I thought I'd just make a video instead of trying to explain it. ua-cam.com/video/MDCwcFNLL94/v-deo.html
One thing I really enjoy about Portal's puzzles is the sense of progression you get, as if each puzzle is comprised of a few smaller puzzles like "How do I get there?" followed by "How do I get that cube" then "Now how do I turn that off?". The small solutions help you feel like you're actually making progress along the way instead of spending a long time thinking or trying different things before getting the solution all at once.
Perhaps a nice compromise between linear and intertwined puzzles is the optimal way to go about it. Baba Is You also often have puzzles that consist of two linear tasks. The first will use one of the game mechanics as an obstacle, and the next will ask you to use that same mechanic in a creative new way to solve the chamber.
wait...Chip?!?!?
@@TheMazarineIsReal hello?
@@KeenX72 sorry, im PogChampDiamond lmao
This has also held true for practically all of my favorite workshop chambers as well. Though in harder maps the mini goals are usually harder to come about, they are very cool to find for yourself when you eventually do so.
i tried the chamber out for myself, and honestly it was pretty fun and better than most of the other ones. though theres are 2 things i noticed after watching the full video.
1. you can use the tractor beam to gain height, skipping a part of the chamber
idk what its called, but you can basically use the tractor beam to fly. if you jump into one, then slowly raise the height of the portal, it will cause the tractor beam to slowly rise. as a result, you start going up too. this allows you to skip using the beam and blue gel all together, landing you at the top platform. you could fix this by removing unnecessary white tiles, causing the player to not be abe to increase the height of the beam
2. the blue gel isnt really used
you dont even need the blue gel to get to the top platform, by simply waiting the tractor beam will deliver you there, and you can make your way out of the beam. a way to fix this would be to put a glass panel covering the direction the beam is going, forcing the player to drop down and bounce on the blue gel.
all in all it was still pretty fun though, nice job!
Thanks for testing the chamber! I'm new to the game so I don't know most of the tricks you can do with portals. I will fix the shortcut, thanks for the feedback!
@@Cah-Games I found an unintended solution as well:
1. Place a portal on the wall behind the pedestal
2. Drop down and place a portal on the wall facing the cube dropper
3. Using the blue gel, you can jump through the portal on the wall
Takes a few attempts, but I did it and cheesed it. At the time, I wasn't sure if it was unintended, but I know now it is.
One note about your advice that non-intended solutions should be avoided and removed. In principle this is good. However my most memorable experience from the portal mod portal:reloaded was on a puzzle where I knew I wasn’t figuring out the proper solution, but Ide realised a sequence of really precise movements and portal placements that could cheese the level. It took me a few attempts and Once I did it the announcer said “that was not how you were supposed to complete the puzzle, but you did it anyway, congratulations!” It felt like Ide been clever and found a secret. I think alternate solutions are a positive thing as long as they are similar or more difficult to achieve as the regular solution.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Doing things in an unintended way feels so good, it's one of my favorite things in all of gaming, not even just puzzles. If you find an unintended, but difficult enough, solution to your puzzle, and you still think it's fun... leave it in! Maybe make it more obscure, or make it more of an actual solution, or (like your example) add some kind of indicator that the solution is different from the true path, but if you can keep that "aha!" moment that someone might get from solving your puzzle in that way, absolutely do so.
Then again, I'm no game designer. This is just coming from me as a player.
I agree, and must note this "not intended" aspect can be a good thing as it engages player creativity and a good time is had by all -- not to mention this is how rocket jumps were discovered!
Removing non intended solutions is the same philosophy Nintendo uses and they end up patching out unintended solutions or glitches in their games, even if they're single player experiences. I really dislike this and agree with you for this reason. Unintended solutions should be encouraged as they promote player creativity and allow greater freedom, something speedrunners have been doing for years.
That kind of thing is welcome in "problem" solving games, where the intended solution is only one of many, and the game encourages you to outsmart it.
But the way I see it, puzzles should only allow the solutions implemented by the designers themselves.
what? no.
I didn't even know the button reversed polarity. I just nudged the portal to the side until the cube was close enough for me to grab.
I fixed that, thank you for the feedback!
Ah yes - a shortcut as mentioned in the video.
I assume OP just made the portal-wall less mide with a gap above the goo so this becomes imposdible.
Thats also a thing to consider. Let people, who DONT know the solution try to solve it if possible - otherwise await feedback, which is technically the same thing.
Really well explained actually, and I really like that you showed a good example of your explanation working with your own chamber at the end!
Hello Tride
Didn't expect to see you under this video lol, but yeah I really liked the way the video explained things, especially since he linked the test chamber in the description, so (for people who have the game) it actually almost makes the video interactive which is a pretty great way of teaching things. I felt like after I played the test chamber I understood what he was talking about even better than if I had just listened to the video
i cant escape tride bru
Oh wow Tride?! Didnt expect that but i guess it makes sense you enjoy portal
hol up....
I found an unintended solution where I was able to carry both the cube and myself through repeated portals that nudged the excursion funnel ever so slightly while I was inside it. I transferred between the two walls and ended up able to get to the topmost platform without the bouncing gel or the reversed polarity of the excursion funnel. Twas a fun non-standard solution, and I'm glad you kept it in the game.
I have spent a lot of time designing my own puzzle games. My process is like this:
1. Figure out an interesting interaction between some of the available game mechanics
2. Design a puzzle in such a way that invites the player to discover the same interaction you did through playful experimentation, but not in a way that solves the puzzle immediately
3. Require the player to use a little bit of planning (and previously learned tricks) in addition to understanding the interaction, or require them to spot an opportunity for the interaction in an unintuitive place
4. Ensure that all strategies not involving the interaction, and strategies that would be unreasonably precise or inefficient, are blatantly shown to arrive at dead-ends in two steps or less
As a puzzle game developer the first thing I do when trying to make a good puzzle is to start with a contradiction. Something like "Do A to solve the puzzle, but A also activates B, which blocks the exit". This throws off the players intuition and forces them to think outside the box. Of course the designer has to implement a way for the player to get around this seemingly impossible obstacle and this is where I feel like making a puzzle becomes a puzzle itself.
Also, not only do you need to test it thoroughly on your own, you absolutely need other people to test it too. Knowing the solution beforehand changes your whole view of the puzzle and for someone who has never seen the room before, the experience is completely different. You'll be surprised to see where people want to go and what they try to do. This is true not only for puzzle games but game design in general.
I fixed some shortcuts since I released the video, so the level you see in the video is slightly different than the one in the steam workshop (but the way you solve it is the same!)
Also check out the whole collection of "A Box And A Button" puzzles I made so far: steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2899955722
I still found another solution. By jumping off the bouncy gel I can make it into a portal that was placed on the illuminated wall and made it back to the other side with a portal placed aiming at the spot where I need to catch the dropping box. I legit thought this was the solution and was sad it relied on a bit of weird feeling platforming (the jump into the portal is sorta tight and you hit your head on the overhang roof)
Breath of the Wild shrine puzzles reminded me a lot of Portal and Portal 2 puzzles. However, in almost every shrine, there are multiple possible solutions and yet none feel so trivial that you feel disappointed. In many cases, it's hard to tell if you came up with a solution the designers intended or merely allowed.
First of all, very good video! You covered the basics of puzzle design nicely. I really appreciate the emphasis on how to make the puzzles interesting and satisfying to solve, rather than the typical puzzle clarity advice (make connections clear, make sure lighting is good) I see on Discord servers and UA-cam videos alike. I feel you explained the concept of non-linearity in puzzles brilliantly intuitive and unique way.
One thing I would say is that I don’t feel you necessarily need a wrong intuitive solution as the backbone to a good puzzle. In many fantastic P2 maps, I find that the intended solution is more often disguised through multiple re-uses of elements and connections, rather than through a decoy solution. I think this “reuse” approach is also what made puzzle designing a lot easier for me.
While your method of “Think of an obvious approach, make that approach impossible in a non-obvious way, implement a more roundabout approach” is by no means invalid, I think it is a lot harder (for me, at least) to have to come up with two similar solutions and reject one of them. Moreover, you don’t really have any way of seeing if your other roundabout solution is hidden enough, or even that creative of a move in the first place. Likewise, trying to create longer and harder puzzles isn’t all that practical with this technique, since you are more often trying to prevent solutions rather than force new ones.
What I like to do instead is “think of the main ‘crux’ move you wish to implement, think of a setup that forces that move and is as open as you can, think of all the moves that you could also implement with a setup, find a separate setup which forces that move, rinse and repeat.” In an ideal world, I manage to force a puzzle which uses most/all the states of the setup in a longer or more intricate sequence. As such, because (with a good setup) there are far more states to consider, you then naturally have the solution hidden in plain sight, and the decoy solutions usually occur naturally, without me having to specifically incorporate them into the puzzles.
Hopefully this comment wasn’t too long, though it’s not every day I get to nerd out about something I’ve been doing for three years on a video randomly recommended to me by the algorithm :P The tips you gave are very insightful and are bound to help someone in their puzzles, and for a first map, yours was far better than the usual quality on the P2 workshop. Great video and good luck in future mapping!
I can attest that Dolphiner's philosophy is very generative. I think that the modern rhetoric of "reuses" isn't actually incompatible with the strategy described in the video. The idea of a use and reuse is that an initial (and perhaps more intuitive) use of an element/structure within the puzzle provides an initial context for that piece, which is then accepted by the player. Then, if a reuse of that element/structure is sufficiently different in nature than the first use, a player will be challenged to step back and recognize that the piece of the map they had used before has a greater power than they had first assumed. A player that is forever stuck in the initially established context of an element/structure will never be able to solve the puzzle; stepping away from that context and approaching the element from a different angle will yield results. (Comparable to the false-but-intuitive solution v.s. the true-but-non-intuitive solution presented in the video)
This is how I design all my puzzles as well, but the method tends to induce longer, more complex puzzles, which can be difficult to balance; (and have long development times, haha) I hadn't really thought about the style proposed in the video and I'd like to try to make some smaller crisp puzzles with it, as long as I can keep my misdirection passive and not active.
I'll add that I agree with Dolphiner that this video hits on some critical points about Portal 2 puzzles that often go unsaid, which is great; the points at the end, such as putting effort into emphasizing what is and isn't possible mechanically to avoid players thinking that their failures are simply due to an inability to meet a mechanical skill check rather than the real reason of approaching the puzzle incorrectly, are very important and well-said.
Genuinely a jaw-dropping intended solution, was very impressed by it. I will say though, that I was completely taken by surprise when you could look over the giant wall at 5:50. One of the things the game devs noticed when originally making portal 1 is that players rarely looked up at the ceiling, so they had to remake a bunch of chambers to put all the important things much closer to eye level. Great chamber though! Best I’ve seen in years! Excellent lighting, too!
I just watched this video during my lunch break at work and was eager to leave a like and a sub. With big surprise did I notice that you only have 61 subscribers???
I enjoy listening to your voice and your way of narrating is also fitting.
I'll leave a sub, hoping yout channel grows! Great content.
with some polish I could easily see this chamber in an official portal game, good job!
That last puzzle with the tractor beam had a very satisfying solution.
Yay a new portal content creator :D. But really though you explained linearity pretty well, and the example puzzle is really good for a first map.
Nice level! One problem, you can use the other white wall that lines up with the cube to skip most of the level
Now this is quality content, you earned a sub my g
honestly amazing puzzle for someone new to the game
How To Make Better Puzzles?
Step 1: Learn to use hammer
I like the idea of 2 opposing teams having to solve symmetrical puzzles like a tf2/csgo + portal map. each team has doors in their base you have to hold open with key/cube on button to have a chance of pushing mid flag to end base...
Im shocked that you recently played Portal 2 for the first time, and you're a way better tutorial guide than anyone else I watched
search Demon Arisen
I just played the test chamber and am writing this before watching the video. It was a nice puzzle, but because of the part where you have to jump to open portals, it took me 10 minutes to complete the test. Other than that, it was easy.
"I watched the video and realized that I found an easier way."
First, open a portal where the middle button is located
and of course, open a temporary portal to go through
Place the Second Portal: Open the second portal across from where the cube will drop,
Jump into the Portal Using the Blue Gel on the Ground.
Return through the Middle Portal: As you emerge, direct the middle portal towards the pushing laser and open portal.
Press the Button: Now, press the button to release the cube.
Wait for the Laser to Pull the Cube Towards It.
Position a Portal for the Cube: Open a portal in a location where you can easily retrieve the cube once it is accessible.
Retrieve the Cube, Place It on the Button, and Complete the Test.
The first step to designing a good puzzle is to gain some perspective on what differentiates good ones from bad ones. In the landfill of the workshop, even mediocre maps can appear good when juxtaposed to garbage.
The 2nd step is learning how to implement ideas and concepts into a tangible 3D layout (on top of coming up with original ideas in the first place). Without a proper level geometry to contain it, concepts cannot be manifested properly.
The 3rd step is trial and error, and patience. Unless you’re willing to put in the effort, and the many hours, days, or even months to bring your idea to life in the best possible way, it will always be released in an unfinished state.
Keep going young padawan, and maybe someday you might make a good puzzle.
I solved the puzzle before watching the solution, and used a different solution. I placed a portal next to the cube dropper button, and then a portal facing the cube dropper on the wall. I bounced off the gel into the portal facing the dropper, connected that portal to the tractor beam, dropped the cube and then reversed the beam to pull it back. It took a few attempts to bounce off the gel into the portal on the wall.
I definitely didn’t solve it the intended way. I didn’t use the tractor to get up to the top platform and just bounced up there after jumping through a portal.
It took me a few tries to get the portal placed that you use to catch the cube with the tractor beam, but I got it in the end.
I haven't played the puzzle myself, but from the preview you provided, my solution is to use the tractor beam to go up to the platform on top of the illuminated panel, and have the portal come from the far wall to the spot just below the cube dropper. Drop to the platform with the pedestal button and press it, drop down to the floor button and hold until the cube is on the right side. No bounce jel needed, and no need to visit the other side of the room.
Edit: looked at the current workshop preview, and it appears you have fixed that
great video, love how you started simple and expanded on it with good visuals to match
Bruh, great puzzle, I regret watching the solution before trying :(
Please make more
I didn't even use beam) I just placed blue portal high (Just like you placed orange) and then i used white panels at the floor near to floor button. Jump then place portal just below to gain momentum then place orange portal on the wall in the middle of the flight and bounce off the gel
One thing I did to make my levels unique is to add circuitry using cubes, pressure plates, and tractor beams all inaccessible to the player. This can create irreversible effects for the level.
In one of mine, I had it where a player had to retrieve 3 laser cubes that were fairly easy to get. They routed them through 3 cones, but then a bunch of panels moved, cutting off all easy solutions, forcing the player to use the lasers diagonally. I think I made it too hard because it didn’t get good ratings.
This video was great at explaining the puzzle creation process!, I absolutely loved the example you made since it really would've taken much more time to figure out and would have felt rewarding once you understand it. The thumbnail you chose was really good too, even if it may be simple!
How to make better puzzles
Step one: Study the entirety of the human brain.
Chamber solution spoilers!
I backed off from the high platform and placed the cube grabbing portal before bouncing off the gel back to the high platform.
Fun level.
Another thing I'd like to point out: The solution should require minimal skill to perform and not make the player question if something was intended (i.e. "barely visible portal surface"). I really like your puzzle here for that reason: the solution is not immediately obvious, but very easy to perform.
this is in my watch later playlist for some reason, very interesting
Fun, entertaining video. I agree with most of the tips.
One thing that I'll add is that P2 campaign isn't really the best example of well designed puzzles, as it might be of a well designed game.
One thing I noticed your chamber lacked was element reuse, which is the core of most of excellent puzzles nowadays. The button near the exit is only used once to retrieve the cube, but once you retrieve the cube you're done.
A way to spice up your chamber would be to actually give the player the cube right away, but prevent him from getting it to the button. Force the player to reverse the funnel to get the cube on the button, and then get the cube on the button so that the player uses the funnel for a final move.
This brings up a great point with the element re-use. I'm in the works of revising a test of mine, and V1 still uses my chosen major element (a light bridge) a lot. Demon Arisen's "How to Make Great Test Chambers" series brings this up in episode 3 IIRC. Honestly, the series in general is quite useful and is one of the biggest reasons as to why I chose to revise the chamber. Either way, I also believe element re-use is extremely important when designing a test chamber, among other things.
@@cz_Fenix Demon Arisen videos might be a bit dated, specially when he talks about the difference between major and minor elements (which to me is a bit irrelevant), but many of the concepts he talks about still hold true to this day. There's a ton of potential for complexity inside a puzzle that the campaign never fully explored, mostly due to having to spend a considerable amount of time introducing new elements, and also to allow every player to complete each map in a reasonable time.
I played around with the course creator a year or so ago its really slept on by most players.
Finally someone besides demon arisen makes a video like this because how are all of these people: "you see this junk i just made which i didn't playtest!? Boy this will get many views and it'll be the best map in the workshop." Or what?
Also i wish you the best in making puzzles in the future atleast you try to make good puzzles :)
I can tell you put a lot of work into this video! You deserve more viewers. Good job!
It's so awesome seeing channels with under 500 subs getting over 25.000 views.
One custom Test Chamber I played did some non-Euclidean shenanigan where the initial room has a cube-only button, that somehow gets swapped to a room with a universal button while you're retrieving the cube from the dead-end corridor. Talk about nonlinear.
That was about a decade ago, and I still have no idea how the author managed that!
They didn't use the inbuilt editor. The hammer editor has world portals, which are basically portals without the portal effects and that are customizable in size.
@donovan6320 Today I learned
@@Night-Wolf The hammer editor is the tool Valve used for pretty much all the levels, It's much more complicated and unintuitive.
That being said, it allows for a higher skill ceiling, you can place whatever models and entities you want. You can do a bunch more scripting node setups via Entity IO and Squirrel code.
World Portals were only used a couple of times in the game, they were mainly to work around engine limitations when it comes to the size of source engine levels.
@@donovan6320 Alright, fair point. Critical thinking failure on my part.
Each portal puzzle (or test chamber) author can make it how they want, but I heard at least main game of portal and portal 2 test chambers have multiple solutions.
i have over 900 hours in portal 2 most of it is in the level editor but I have never been good at non linier puzzles and it really annoys me this has helped me think about level design differently making the puzzle is a puzzle in its self
This puzzle is great.
I really enjoyed the video! Very nice and I'm very existe to test your room ! (I didn't watched the solution and I hope I can figure it out myself! )
why is youtube recommending me so many channels with little to no subs
i honestly thought that this channel had 2k at least
keep up the great work tho :)
GENIOUS LEVEL love your portal content keep up the good work!
i just b-hopped from the portal surface down where the blue gel was, all the way up to the top, b-hopped, got enough distance, and just went in the sky, easy way of fixing it is: remove blue gel (intended solution didn't even need it) or make the top parts un-portalable
Have you ever wanted more options in the level editor for portal 2 like to make multiple chambers in the same map or change the style to Overgrown or different style Well then look for bee2 it can get a lot of those things done it's supposed to give you more options in the portal 2 level editor but be aware these new options and power abilities could cause errors to happen in your puzzle like leaks map errors building the puzzles It's most likely for leaks to happen when you're in Overgrown style
1:15 krzyhau moment
I made whis test chamber in puzzle maker lol
This puzzle is *really* good
I played the puzzle blind and wrote down my thoughts as I went:
walk into room, at least one moving thing - tractor beam
see a button - what does it do?
press button, look around - it drops a cube into goo
explore area with goo
can move tractor beam under the cube dispenser, but can't get back to the button
tractor beam is going wrong way, can't get it to rescue the cube
can direct tractor beam into itself, then move one of the portals
can use this to get to vantage point
can use the bouncy goo to bounce up and down from the vantage point, and get a shot at the wall facing the path of the cube, putting the tractor beam in its path
okay, how do I now get the cube?? If I place any portals, it will fall
If I place the portal pointing at the cube slightly higher each time, I can pull it higher
OR SIDEWAYS
and I can get it from the recessed wall to the wall that's next to me, too!
okay but I still can't get to it and then return
hmm....
If I get it to the top left corner of the first wall, then the portal on the bottom left corner of the opposite wall will catch it!
Did it!
I then watched the video
WHAT THE FUCK THE BUTTON REVERSES THE POLARITY?????
actual good puzzles are made with Hammer
wow, i am really impressed. that is the most nonlinear solution i can think of, but the bouncy kinda gel feels out of place. other than that, very good puzzle!
If you like puzzle/exploration games, you should absolutely play Outer Wilds. It's a solar system mystery game with multiple intertwined puzzles over several planets which characteristics change over time. It's mind blowing ! And after playing it, you will lament and wonder when you'll be able to find another game like it.
Really well made video!
Great Video, this will help more then I thought =D
nice video! i hope there'll be more from you in the future :)
Cool puzzel, even though i think i did none of the tings you did to solve it.
You can place a portal where the beam needs to go and then jump through it with the blue gel. And I used a different strat to get the cube out of the beam, but the way you did it is probably faster.
I liked the puzzle you made
Fun video and well designed map.
Your solution was definitely alot more graceful than mine! heh
Wheatley watching this be like:
I managed to complete it completely wrong, I placed the orange portal in the spot where if there was a tractor beam it would catch the cube, and then placed another portal near the button, and then jumped in the orange portal using the blue gel and then moved the blue portal to the tractor beam then pressed the button, then stood on the weighted button which transported the cube to me
this is genius. thank you.
very very cool and interesting video! nice work
great ideas and nice thinking!
You're explaining it like this game came out yesterday and nobody has a clue about anything 🤣
Just finished the level. I had a unique solution...
oh i actually played thhis level and i placed a portal by the button that drops the cube and one near the gel, and bounced into it
Thank you so much!
But, not to bother, but could you please recreate it in Hammer, and add the abandoned-style like in the first tests of Portal 2 please? Like, pipes sticking out of the walls, water dripping from a pipe, holes in the ceiling, Etc. 😁😁
If not, I'll learn Hammer, and make it myself!!
I was playing the other day and going through recent chambers and actually ended up on yours
I wasn’t able to figure it out though
I SHORT CUT IT IN ONE PLAYTHROUGH
cool vid, ive made 3-4 maps myself but theres only one map that i find elegant. Its hard to think of new puzzles.
this is a really good video 👍
What would you suggest to a player who does not enjoy puzzles?
I really struggle to understand how that works. I can "solve" them, or sometimes I can't, but the emotional response remain identical - frustration in the process, and annoyance at the solution when it is finally discovered.
@@SashaS-s2z well the frustration is definitely relatable. Being stuck in front of an apparently impossible problem is part of solving a good puzzle. If you're feeling annoyed after you solve a puzzle it could honestly be the designer's fault: a classic example is when some elements of the puzzle are hidden or their purpose is not clear, in that case when you figure out the solution you're just gonna feel like you got scammed. Instead I find very satisfying to solve puzzles with a simple structure but with a solution that requires thinking out of the box. Talos Principle for example is full of those type of puzzle
Nice video
I made a very linear map that makes you do the same tasks twice but you progress at the same time. Not sure how much time you have but I’d love for you to give it a try and have feedback on it.
I did the puzzle, and I did it a completely different way.
great video!
what a great tutorial! Now my puzzles won't be trash anymore! (i think i'm the 991th like!)
Great vid
yes
Interesting
Good video
Bro u can make modded levels and you have more options for levels
how do i make custom puzzle?
The Steam / PC version of Porta 2 has a "Community" menu option. You can create test chambers through that menu
However, it is ONLY on the pc version
Nice
Hey love this video, definitely make more chambers! ill play all of them. Anyways I played the chamber before you spoiled it and this was the route I found most intuitive to me (though that might be abnormal since i used to speedrun portal 2 a lot), I thought I'd just make a video instead of trying to explain it.
ua-cam.com/video/MDCwcFNLL94/v-deo.html
woa
I'm using beemod
Portal 2 liquid puzzles are bad
Just look what u can't do and go backwards
The level was fine but the first minutes of this video were agonizingly slow. would be a great 3 minute video
try beemod
Portal ages like plastic, not wine.
No cake for you
I quietly disagree with your perspective
Nice