All great points Paul! I run a one man shop. So maybe a little different than some of these bigger shops when it comes to billing the client. But between all the service writer duties, parts ordering, invoicing, talking with the clients or suppliers and actual diagnostic or time spent on the vehicle for repairs . I don’t hardly have time to sleep. Long story short, when I’m at work, I’m getting paid. I don’t care whether I’m upfront at the computer or physically wrenching on a car. That time needs to be paid. And my bill reflects that every time! This research time that has become such a big topic, that’s work! If I’m sitting at a computer pouring over diagrams or TSB’s or data, so I can fix my clients vehicle efficiently and correctly. Then I need to be getting paid for it because like any other business, the money has to keep coming in. Any client that’s not willing to pay for your time researching, is in my opinion a client you do not want. Research is essential in our field. Like you stated, we can’t possibly be completely up-to-date on every single make and model coming through the door, that is just unrealistic. I always let my clients know that I have a one hour MINIMUM for diagnostic. If it’s looking like something that will take more time, when I get to that point I let them know. I will call and discuss the options before proceeding. This ended up being a longer comment than I intended, but we need to stop underselling ourselves. What we do is very complex, and takes an immense amount of knowledge. Furthermore, these clients should be happy. We are not throwing parts at their vehicle, because we all know that can be very expensive. Way more expensive than paying some guy another hour or so he can do his research.
The correct and honest message customers need to know : "...... whether I’m upfront at the computer or physically wrenching on a car. That time needs to be paid".
i'm a retired Network Engineer. I can completely relate. Had so many complaints about charging $200 an hour to diag and fix a 7 million dollar network that required 99.9% uptime. So yeah, get paid for the research.
Id happily pay for a competent electrician rather than some parts changer who cant diagnose a corroded wire and ends up changing everything he can think of.
My research usually starts and ends with Mr.ScannerDanner. Thank You for Your Time. You are the one who has taught me how to read my scope and trust in my diagnosis beyond a flowchart that says replace this, if the DTC resets replace that then this then that. Thank God you made me more then a parts changer 🙏 🙌
@ScannerDanner all 4 sensors have read normal and I had just about given up when I decided to take a break and watch another one of your classes. Just happened to glance at my scantool and seen that B2S1 HO2 was a steady line but there were 2 switching signals on my line graph. Paused your video and noticed B2S2 was switching in time with B1S1.... unplugged B2S2 and B2S1 went to default 1890mV. God Bless You as You have Blessed me.
Scanner danner you are the man!! We need more techs like you in this industry even dealerships throw parts at the car and bill huge amounts of money, can you imagine dealeships that they are supposed to know how the system works and still making bad calls smh.
until shops start apprentices at more than minimum wage, (which is still 7.25 federal and the same in PA where Paul and I both work) we will never get competant techs. The median income for master techs in this field is currently around 67k a year. This also doesnt indicate many mechanics work upwards of 50-60+ hours a week. A neighbor of mine joined the plumbers union in Philly and started as an apprentice at 25 an hour. There is a serious pay issue with this industry as well as training disconnect. Many dealerships will only satisfy shop competence requirements. So why should any technician earning minimum wage or only slightly higher even enter the field when they can go work at mcdonalds and take home way more money due to not having to pay for school loans and continually update their tools. We also need a better apprenticeship system. Don't take the tallented young man/women and stick them in the quick lane oil change portion. Set them under a few different A/B techs and allow them to learn more on the job and have a system in place that requires their continuing education after set periods of time. Many neglect sending employees to training if its not required by the manufacturer, and many aftermarket shops neglect training all together. The training within our industry needs to be better now than ever. These cards are extremely complex and diverse in the systems implimented. But some "trade schools" charging premiums are still teaching on outdated vehicles more than 15 years old.
@@Ashroyer86 agreed 100% too many techs simply read the error codes, google the part closely associated with it and simply just replace the parts. That's if your lucky, i've had a few mechanics lie and screw me over.
When you take your car to the shop, do you expect to be charged a couple hours labor because the mechanic watched a few youtube videos to figure out how to replace your part causing the problem? Or do you take it to the expert expecting them to already be trained and experienced and only think you should be charged for the actual repair?
@@sumduma55 you're not serious? You know any "experts" that have intimate knowledge of every single of the thousands of components created every year for the hundreds of vehicle models and all their iterations? Maybe you should go to a wizard or a warlock lol Experts are people that understand how and why things work and can follow the pathology needed to diagnose the problem. Like going to a doctor (expert) and they run tests and charge you for those tests. Do you tell your doctor "you're supposed to be an expert, why do you need to run tests?" No, you don't... Complex systems and new developments in technology make some repairs very challenging and no one person knows it all. Reset your expectations back to reality.
@@cryptoking7093 what is the difference between being charged for the tuition of an auto mechanics course and being charged for you to learn how a system works so you can diagnose it like you originally said you would?
I say to people all the time, “a shops best guy is the one producing outcomes the fastest and with the highest quality, or accuracy, in the case of diags.” This is the highest paid guy in the shop as a rule. Now ask yourself, does it make sense to bill this guy out for the least amount of money because he completed the job faster than others!? The answer is obviously no! If shops bill out their best guys for less they will go broke. Scanner Danner, you are on the money with this no matter what other people think! Keep on educating man! The industry needs you!
The main purpose of this video is to define "research" and what it is I am actually talking about when I say that. Of course accuracy is key in all of this! We cannot charge for our expertise in the way that I am describing if we are not accurate in our call the very first time! There is no room for error, especially when it comes to making a call on a say a $2000 module or even worse, a $10000 high psi fuel pump on a heavy duty diesel engine! Are you $10,000 sure??
What an amazing example of the cost & effort, that goes into fixing these new systems, which is just a simple fix for Mr. Customer Thanks for sharing this great part of the case study👍 Stay Safe & Blessed Guy's❤
Thank you for the massage it's truth the many people don't want to understand they think of money but they don't appreciate the man Life effort for the job God bless the truth u said
To all the whiners; was it OK for the last 2 shops who worked on the vehicle and charged the customer for a PCM, an alternator and labor? But it's not OK for a competent tech [last resort] to then correctly diagnose and repair the vehicle and charge for the solution?
Spot on. The customer has to learn from the experience and accept the garages he used made the wrong calls and he paid for it. Lesson learned and never go back. Once you go to a new shop then everything that happened before doesn't matter, slate wiped clean and you go forward from there. It is then up to the customer to decide if he wants to go back to the previous failed repair attempts and dispute/recover costs based on the diagnostics/bill from shop that fixed the problem.
Look, no one ask for your perfectly logical conclusion. Of course it’s okay to rip-off the customer and charge for labor they don’t need rather than actually figure out what’s going on…
I spent 15 years in the dealership doing everything properly and how you should do it. Diagnosing issues correctly and being paid the time do it. Got in a motorcycle accident and was off work for couple years. Started working at a small shop in my town. The owner is a firm believer in go out to the parking lot, scan the codes and order a part based on the code. It drives me ABSOLUTELY INSANE! Not to mention when I say charge for diag, and do it right. He says people won’t pay for diag. They think you are ripping them off and they won’t come back. I may be going back to the dealer.
Yes, a very common problem - but you cannot change your boss. So, you'll get sick for staying in a job, where you can't do satisfying work. Seems like a good idea to look for the next job.
We don't know everything about every vehicle but know the diagnostic process. We're diagnosticians and vehicles and problems are increasingly and exceedingly complex and require prep and research before approaching a concern. This is all part of the diagnostic process.
@Not only a member But the president Seems like you have no idea what you doing - except running your mouth all over comments, which makes you look like “know everything” which in fact knows nothing!
Hey Paul, this video should go viral! The integrity of some technicians is not acceptable. We are pushed in a corner and are not allowed the time to do the research. We are playing both ends against the middle like you said between wrong or absent service info and junk new parts, new/reman with the customer paying for it all. We should get paid for research time and allowed to do so to prevent guessing. I see this all the time. I work for a transmission shop now and I have general repair in my back ground. I have been one of your subs since 2012. Also had the premium channel for a time. I’m considering jumping back in just to keep up with the hidden changes!!! It is really sad how the manufacturers are fleecing the customers! The dealerships and shop owners are helping them by not giving the technician the time to make the right call. I am not speaking about the guys and gals out there who are really good, I’m talking about the ones who want to really be good but don’t get the experience/chance because of the time issue. Thanks for the video and your work to bring awareness of a broken system. Peace brother!!!
@@Thunderroad8517 UA-cam is completely stupid now. I didn't know this was you Michael until the reply in my email. wtf they don't give me names anymore, they give me the @ fist and something else. Though yours is clear now lol
Time ,knowledge and money spent on diagnostic tools aren’t cheap. I agree with you on charging for your services. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Love the video.
Good video Paul👍🏻! I really enjoy diagnosing just about anything. Sometimes I think that we will almost have to start specializing in a few select manufactures in order to be able to diagnose/repair things in a timely manner. Seems like so many cars these days require specific scan tools, subscriptions and special tools it’s almost a loosing battle trying to stay up to date on all years/makes/models.
This is the single most important issue facing us today. The combined elements of fast changing technology which gets more complicated yearly + the side effects of the pandemic (skilled worker shortage, supply line issues & trusted new parts issues) have converged and is represented by Paul Danner in this video. Unfortunately, its the last two links in the chain that feel the most pain; the repair shops and the customers. Its unfair for both groups to have to shoulder the burden of this perfect storm. -Some of the major issues will work themselves out but some will not. The age of specialization & complication is upon us. The once workable ‘fix every car’ facility can no longer cope. Its time shops and technical folks limit themselves according to their strengths for their sake as well as their customers. This will need to extend to the education and training sectors as well as parts manufacturing. The details and accuracy needed to be successful are being ignored, lost or skipped. Our future slogan may be simplify or perish. Thank you Paul for bringing this issue to the masses.
I’m not a mechanic by trade, but I’m a weekend wanna be, so here’s my $0.05. Do I want to know up front what it’s gonna cost for you to look at my vehicle? Yes! Do I want communication with the mechanic (not person answering phone)? Yes! Do I want to be told after the first initial diag fee is up that you are working towards the issue? Yes! Do I want to be told the cost per hour (even if it’s the same as the original diag fee) moving forward? Yes The more information the mechanic can give the client, the more likely the customer will be to paying you to fix the train wreck they dropped off. Coming at a customer after 6 hrs and asking for $800 isn’t gonna be good. Communication is key! Great video as always Paul!
@@dizzy2020 I will agree 100%, but in a case like this one that’s above say like an ABS pump module talking to a tech helps. Plus I’m going to a local shop because I’m looking for some 1 on 1 communication. Does that make sense?
@@dizzy2020 Talking to a tech who is repairing a vehicle is a waste of time, and therefore money. Direct communication on a diagnostic does use billable time but can save way more time than it takes. Would you rather have a reasonably accurate description of the vehicle history and when the fault manifests or chinese whispers from the "well trained" 🤣🤣🤣 service advisor?
Man I have missed watching your videos! Teaching has consumed all of my time while on the road and I give all of my time to my family when I’m home. Great to see PJ there also!
Man got to love that factory info. I especially like when the vehicle in the bay is newer than 5 years. Tons of reading material in Alldata but doesn’t say a whole lot about how a system actually works. I charge 3 hours up front to begin diagnostics but if it’s something new to me, chances are I’m going to lose my butt on that first one. I don’t pay for any schools or seminars at this point so this is where that schooling money is spent for me. I learn hands on and usually after failure so I just go with that flow. Been working for me over the 30+ years I’ve been a mechanic. Really enjoy the videos man
Totally agree. That's why I always take a few minutes to explain to a customer what I did and why I am billing for it. The more info they get the better they feel about the bill.
Good video. My boss sells an hour diag for a check engine light. Anything wonky like this, he sells 2 hours to start, and tells the customer it can go up from there. I like that. Puts less pressure on me and gives me more latitude to fix it right the first time.
I always love your videos , learn a lot from your knowledge . Couple weeks ago I had a 2002 Honda Civic with a tdc code ,,, car would go into limp mode when set ,, customers husband changed the camshaft position sensor ,, I used a scope on it and verified the wave patterns were correct ,,, I talked them into timing belt because they couldn’t remember last time it was changed and car has almost 200,000 on it ,, I did timing belt job , inspected the reluctor wheel on the cog and all was fine , figured while I was there I’d replace crank shaft position sensor and verify the wiring was fine ,,, put all back togeather start car and sure enough tdc code cam back but with long crank time , ,,, scoped crank and cam And the wave patterns are on point ,, timing is perfect ,,, having bad luck with after market parts , I talked them into factory cam sensor and sure enough all is fixed I don’t know that was the fix as the wave patterns matched ,, but lesson learned with Honda wants it’s factory denso sensor lol
You are right on the button, Paul. The techs should be paid for their time, and if the customer disagrees then they should seek their compensation for that bill from the manufacturers. Added to that it was the customer's choice on the type of cars they wanted to own, and with their specific set of problems.
Preach! 30yr tech here. Must get paid for our time. I didn't build it. I didn't sell it, I didn't buy it, I didn't drive it, I didn't break it. But it's my fault when Mr/Mrs. customer has to pay me when I fix it. Preach it brother. Thank you!
Someone who understands my pain Preach Danner Preach!!!!…. Speak the truth Diagnostics: to pay someone for his or her time (working on your vehicle) : to give someone money for the time he or she spent (working on your vehicle)
Your spot on. This topic is why so many have left the automotive industry. Try working on flat rate and being told that DTC (fill in the blank) pays 1.2 diagnostics time. Meanwhile it takes you 3. So you just worked 1.8 for free solving a problem. Wrong information, diagnostic tools that don't do what you need them to, defective parts, and the list goes on and on. Technicians are in high demand and there are so many reasons why. Now I see trade schools with 6 months training and your certified. Like the man just said he's still learning. You can't learn the entire vehicle in 6 months. Even OEM diagnostic tools and information can be wrong, all over the web you see it. Dealers that can't fix the car they sold you.
Very good video Paul and Caleb! You guys have done so much to change the industry along with many of the other technicians on UA-cam! Bravo for all your hard work and dedication!
Excellent video Paul! I run into this daily in the aviation world. Yep, those manuals have mistakes too. The “secret” technique of all above average diagnosticians is DESCRIPTION and OPERATION or the other terms you find. You must know without a doubt how and why things work the way they do or you will never fix it properly. We absolutely must be paid for the hours of research each time.
The criticism will come form customers who do not understand whats being done (educate & communicate), or people who have a pre conceived idea that us techs & shops rip people off. You will never win with these people sadly, how ever much you try to reason with them. I would point out to them that a good technician will 'diagnose' their car correctly & not guess, therefore resulting in an accurate repair of the actual fault. This saves them money & repair time by being correct 1st time. Or would they rather keep firing the parts cannon until it & their wallet is empty?! Paul, you are spot on & we appreciate your campaigning on this important issue. Thankyou!
You're absolutely right, I tell my boss that all the time and he doesn't take in the fact that if I take a car apart inside and find and fix the problem now I have to put everything back together and that takes time, he doesn't think about that.
Just had a customer spend over $7k on lifters, injectors, crusty old pigtail, plugs, wires, then gave up... I spent 7+ hours (mostly testing voltage drop, compression, injector drop, current and spark waves Over and over again. All PIDs appeared normal till I was watching you and noticed B2S2 HO2 sensor started switching like an upstream sensor. Paused your video and went and unplugged B2S2 and B2S1 went to 1890mV....👀 now I'm drinking a beer finishing your video.
I was an Avionic technician when I was in the Army. we were told you can't fix something. If you don't know how it works, you must have information on what your are working on to help you to diagnostic it
Amazing content as usual. Really insightful! Good diagnostics, especially involving research can be very time consuming. Many thanks and greetings from the UK
Great one Paul! I have been fortunate to be able to bill all my time... I am upfront with the customer... You may see me 20-30-40 minutes in front of a computer but it's for your car... I cant fix what even the engeniers cant figure out! i can throw 500$ worth of parts at it but it will not fix it... And they understand... Probably because it had already had 500$ worth of parts at it!
Hi Paul. Not sure if your going to read this but I just wanted put it out here. I work in Europe in a shop driven by the biggest aftermarket company. 80% of the time our electric diagrams ,or just service info in general, are wrong or missing. which is really sad… But this have taught me to really think logically (my colleagues is always asking how I know certain stuff) but it’s really tough to be able to always make the right call yet I’m rarely wrong. I keep telling my bosses that we need better info but nothing happens. When I’m writing this now I’m not sure what I wanted from this comment but I guess I just wanted to say that I wish to be like you when I get older.
Paul you are an inspiration to every tech out there, you undoubtedly love this industry, you're going to have negativity in a crowd of thousands personal I've always believed techs should charge for this type of work. If there unhappy get out or step up, this industry has to change starting with our peers then the public. Please continue what you do best educate
There are usually two ways to do a repair. The correct way and the cheap way. Most of our days we are correct, but the occasional problem vehicles require the ability to charge for the time it takes to do it right. Not charging properly for diagnosis leads to guesses. People should not expect their mechanic to work for hours for no charge, or if so, don’t complain when they guess.
Our automotive family MUST watch this!!!! Between the information provided to the repair side of their dealers varying from what they release to the public and missing and completely incorrect information provided to the aftermarket we've found ourselves with a massive challenge as independent repair providers. Increased research cost has often been subsidized by the repair shops and technicians, or worse yet they've simply guessed instead of testing. The dealer? They often turn away the complex faults seen by the aftermarket, and if they do take them, it's more acceptable to parts cannon or call the help line. The manufacturer? Let's be real.... they don't care nearly as much about fixing cars as they do selling them (and the parts needed to fix them). So who takes the hit here? The independent facilities, their staff and the consumer of course. What do we do to fix it? I have no clue. If we charge what we need to charge to fix the cars and properly pay our people to do it? Well, in many cases it pushes the client to replace the car. If the client replaces the car, it places them in a modern automobile that are often seen as consumable as the infamous Bic lighter. Driving them to the dealer, who is cutting warranty times and working to pay techs less.. If we subsidize the testing and repair, we can't pay our people what they deserve or meet the quality folks are used to seeing in the dealership world. Many of us are trying to balance this, but the infighting in our industry has us bickering with one another as opposed to developing a way to overcome these challenges. It's why we should all be working with organizations like The Equipment and Tool Institute to make sure we're sharing our perspectives with the people who can improve the situation!
Great video Paul as always, just watched Mike '' Flat Rate Master '' and it was based on training great video. Research and Training is a must you could not have said it any better.Have a great week.And also nothing is free today.
Diagnostics, especially after parts have been installed often becomes more complicated. I’ve got over 20 years of stories while honing my skills as a diagnostic tech. Sometimes a small amount of diagnostic billing results in thousands in repairs, sometimes a large diagnostic bill results only a few hundred in repairs. The stories of the large diagnostic bills more often then not is after thousands of repairs have already been done. If consumers actually want logically built vehicles that are reliable and easier to diagnose, please make that known by the manufacturer. It doesn’t need to be as ridiculous as many models are. Luckily I love my job, and helping people gets me up in the morning.
I agree with everything you said but I think there's a reason why technicians are leaving this industry and saying they can't make the money they used to be able to make. The labor times are rapidly changing and they're not increasing even though the cars are more complex they're shrinking and I know that has to have an effect on these technicians that are out there every day turning riches trying to make a living and they're having to fix more cars and work faster and harder just to make the same amount of money as they did 2 or 3 years ago
I second that. 2021 Lincoln aviator 3.0 TT. Book says 4 hrs to replace the right side valve cover gasket. Quoted the customer 4 hrs and went through some slow and painfully regretful HOURS. 0 access to the right side turbo inlet and outlet hose clamps. Nearly impossible to remove lower bolt on the HPFP bracket and actually impossible to put it back. People writing labor times don't actually try it.
7:03 LOL 😂 ... Seriously though, too many people/customers still have the old mentality that "mechanics" should just look at a car and listen to it a little bit and know immediately what's wrong (like it used to be decades ago - sometimes even over the phone or text/email messages). The uninitiated general population have no idea about the complexity of their cars and what techs are dealing with today. We need to educate customers the best we can, and that's what you did in this video.
I got fed up with crappy diag procedures a long time ago. Several oems are bad for not providing sufficient info and specs for the techs to be able to do their job. Chrysler is number 1 for this. Fortunately I am on the verge of getting out of this work completely I
hey Paul got that right i been arguing that point with my boss 10 years ago i had a Isuzu another tech had this one he installed 2generators same issue dtc and not charging . i did voltage drop testing flow chart it all pointed to bad gen. we installed a 3rd one still same thing thing . i demanded a OE they finally got me one issue fixed the ECM DIDNT LIKE WHAT IT was seeing . another one a f 150 tech cranks sometimes starts and stalls most times cranks no start setting a dtc crank sensor code dont remember . he replaced crankshaft sensor ECM tested all 3 wires had harness apart pin tension nothing I cked all of his diag work he was right everything was ok so i went to description of operation . The trigger wheel has a total of 35 teeth spaced 10 degrees apart with one empty space for a missing tooth. The 6.8L ten cylinder pulse wheel has 39 teeth spaced 9 degrees apart and one 9 degree empty space for a missing tooth. I copy this from all data so we did a lab scope test on it it looked ok but i counted the humps on the scope and guess what it had 39 and this was a V8 . so we counted the teeth on the engine verified yes sir had the one for a 10 cyl. called dealer and verified had same physical size . forgot to mention it was a reman engine installed at a body shop . we didnt do repair dont know if they were going to replace the part or get anther engine . we billed for 8 hours diag . thet paid it no problem .no one could figure it out .
Man I just went to war with my delivery car long story short was a short to ground crank wires .I'm gonna sighn up for your classes online .all love guys thsnks
@ScannerDanner for sure had a socket set instead of binky .but just really got good last few years .I'll see ya online 55min away from Pittsburgh if yins ever need some good pizza 🍕 holler
This was my main pet peeve when I was involved in the car business. Why should we not charge for our time when anyone else in any job wants to get paid for their time. This is also the reason why I always preferred to work on cars that DID NOT come from other shops and already had parts thrown at it. It just introduces new problems that may not have been there to begin with. Also, it's impossible for techs to know how to fix every single make and model of vehicle. There is much time spent reading wiring schematics and diagnostic procedures BEFORE you even touch the vehicle.
it does not matter what type of repair i used to do, i would always spend some time on research, timing marks, manufacturer information, wiring diagrams, superseded parts and the list goes on, if you run in blind you will hit a problem, knowledge is the key to success, how can you repair something if you don't know a thing about it, you can't, and that's the answer. i have seen it so many times in this trade, like the car everyone has looked at but no one can repair, i even had cars where 4 people have looked at it, it comes to me because im the top tech and the last chance, it has a blown fuse, just a 15 amp fuse, nothing wrong with the circuit, and the reason is because no one bothered to spend 5 mins looking at the fuse box lid/diagram to work out which fuses would stop the car from working. anyone who says this time should not be in the bill has never worked on a car, or if they have it is not in the correct manner, they don't know what they are talking about and lets face it, there is a lot of that going on here on the internet, armchair expert's.
The selfish assertion that diagnostics should not be charged for is absolutely absurd........with a qualifier. And you kind of said it. The qualifier is that, the diagnostic approach needs to be competent and thorough. I compare this to the medical field. Do doctors and hospitals get paid for "research" (diagnostics)? LOL. Of course they do. Do people bitch about that? Well, depends on how good their insurance is. A competent, skilled diagnostician is priceless in my opinion. And to expect to get those skills, to say nothing of the expensive equipment involved, for free, is selfish at best, absurd at worst. And by the way, you and Eric are like the Mayo Clinic in my book. Very impressed.
Perspective, I'm a Kia tech at a dealership. In our electrical class, at the Kia training facility, our teacher tells us, " the wiring diagrams are NOT 100% accurate, they are more of a reference. How's that for assurance? Set up your diagnostic path with something that hopefully is good information. I've been led astray many times due to incorrect service information, luckily in a dealer, when the tech figures that out and builds a case we can get compensated. These independent shops are eating that money due to the manufacturer not being diligent in verifying the accuracy of their posted information. Customers need to be aware of this, and understand real world diagnostic issues.
As for charging customers for R&D on most jobs almost all jobs I say no never charge over the basic hour because U win most & lose few & that margin widens w/experience. 95% of the time w/in 10 minutes U should know if your hour will be inert & require an up sell for more diag time, besides it shows customer's a lot of trust when U give them a back out option for no charge B4 wasting 1 hour ... I am cool like that. Regarding this particular vehicle/situation DEFINITELY MERITS what diagnostic time U gave an estimate for over the initial 1 hour... 🎤
I agree with you we should charge for research , but unfortunately i don't see how we can. Take the average working class customer and it wouldn't be long until the repairs were unaffordable.
@@crashm1 I totally agree with you, but if i charged research time plus diag plus the actual repair, most of the crap that i have to work on would be a write off. I finished my apprenticeship over 40 years ago and if i had charged research time i could have retired 10 years ago, perhaps I've just been a busy fool.
At the dealership level I see a lot of leftover information from year-to-year that doesn’t get updated. It sucks that you can’t trust factory service info to be correct. Also a common diagnostic step from the manufacturer: substitute a known good PCM. WTF
@@ScannerDanner It’s like the person writing the flow charts has zero diagnostic experience. Ohm test the wiring and then substitute a known good PCM… yeah right. The kicker is that warranty usually doesn’t pay for diagnostic time.
@@Jangus I once decided to follow the flow chart, which eventually led me to replacement of the very expensive component! The only problem was - testing that component was the first thing that I did, and it was OK! Flow charts only good to get “big picture”, rest of the job you have to use your own “gray matter”!!!
It takes people like us to diagnosed these cars. Most places say they don't know what is wrong and send it. People not wanting to pay is the reason why I don't want to dig into cars. Side note.I did yesterday It took 3 hours.
Solicitors & Accountants charge for every minute, every phone call, every email, every syllable uttered & for what- Time is precious, We must respect ourselves Touche Scanner Danner
MAKE NO MISTAKE: An accomplished auto technician is as LEARNED as a computer hardware technician. So many wires, modules, and connectors in between so many computers. With knowledge of software coding I know that catching and THROWING errors is at the bottom of the list meaning car's are still some behind the curve at diagnosing themselves. TECHICIANS, therefore, are good as gold. GOOD technicians, that is. Additionally, being physically fit to climb under dashes, into engine compartments, under carriages is beneficial too... Least "vertigo!"
Service information is also VERY important to have. It makes it VERY difficult to diagnose electrical without information such as connector locations, wiring diagrams, pinouts, system operation theory.
@@tomtke7351 There are different levels of service information. Depending on the repair, it may require more in depth service info such as factory over a generic such as Alldata.
So in the HVAC field , you are actually required by the Gas code to diagnose and repair based off of the manual. The principles are all the same but with more advanced technologies, the set up and what to use is solely on the code, which requires research
These cars are not ours. Any other companies charge everything that goes to the consumer/customer/client. Anything done to a vehicle whether by the hour or by the 1/4 hour should be charged. Every can of brake clean, every quart of oil, every drop of washer fluid. Even our time, our inventory is our time. Our time isn't cheap. Our time is valuable.
Zoom Auto ur on Danner level I hope God gives me the wisdom u 2have I'm. 15 year's in the industry end I agree 💯 just need people who is willing to speak the truth
@@JoseTorres-co2ho I've complained about these sorts of things publicly many times on my fb wall. Yes, I've complained. It's ok for us to complain about crummy customers just as they complain about us that charge properly to fix these cars that take them and their families to the beach or to work or to school or daycare. Vehicles are what they call a LUXURY ITEM. The same person complaining about us charging appropriately for our time is out there buying Nikes and marble countertops. They are going to be ok. Charge the time and if the first guy doesn't pay, the next guy will 🤷🏻 I'm a little more harsh about this subject. I've offered to let people stack my wood for me while I work on their car to save them money. And sure enough, they went elsewhere, so now I have to pay someone else to stack my wood. And to do so, I need to be profitable.
I found a egr problem that started when a eng was replaced with the wrong emissions sticker ,ie it was the same year same model same eng displacement but eng had No egr passage.. had to Research engine numbers, Casting found out it had no egr ,but the boss had a Pilot braced drill and drilled EGR passage, it worked, past smog, still driving today
100% accurate. Lawyers charge for all time spent on your case even our estate lawyers charged for emails. Doctors charge for a diagnosis not by time. Their NP’s spend lots of time getting history and information you also get charged for that time on top of the diagnosis. Every other industry charges for all this stuff. Apple and Samsung make massive amounts of profits from these people who argue with charging correctly for diagnostic time and research but they don’t go online crying that those companies are making a healthy profit and charging for all the R&D time and research spent on how to design and sell and market those phones. People are funny.
As a dealer tech, seeing consistent pattern failures, WE STILL NEED TO DO OUR PROPER DIAG. I know that on a newer Honda Odyssey with an inop reverse camera, it needs the camera from pattern failure, I still have to prove it. I know on a newer ridgeline camera is inop that it has a broken wire in the tailgate harness by the lower tail gate hinge on the driver side. I STILL HAVE TO PROVE IT. If cost of part with labor is cheaper than the diag time, I’m ok with customer opting for that route, but they make the call there. Purge valve low flow on a civic 1.8l, Oem purge valve $35 0.2 install definitely cheaper than 1 hour diag. One of very few scenarios I’m willing to shotgun parts. Diag and testing saves customer money in the long run and keeps us employed 99%, as long as it’s being billed.
Hey Paul being at a MB dealership over 30 years total, if the part was bad whether a computer or component we got paid for re diagnose and the r&r of component. We at the dealership do not work for free, and the manufacture will pay for the bad component. They in turn will charge back their supplier. The bills lights heat A/C amongst other things do not go away and must be paid, so we cannot charge the customer for a failed part and the r&r of said component. In Benz world the part if installed by dealer usually will get a 1 year warranty too at least it was before I retired from that field. I can tell you first hand nobody wants to go into this field, why go in spend boo coo of bucks and get a few dollars more than flipping burgers. That does not make sense.
Awesome dude! It's a cheaper for customer to pay some hours more instead for guessing and parts which is not necessarily, indeed and if ... they ready to death (broke) for some future time.
Speaking about wrong information from Chrysler I remembered when I first started working for the Chrysler dealer and having to diagnose a parasitic draw on a Chrysler crossfire and the trunk light was staying on, after looking for wiring to the trunk latch assembly I noticed wiring colors and pin outs were all wrong.. called tech support at Chrysler and the gentleman there laughed and agreed, then told me that the engineers had messed up transferring the Mercedes wiring to Chrysler wiring and wished me good luck in my diagnostic. Ended up needing a pcm. Problem solved
If I Conect my test light to positive and touch it to wire number 5 with car running the test light should light right , because it’s ground side switch????
Id much rather pay someone like yourself 5-10hrs of diagnostic/research time if that's what it took to fix the problem than the multiple mechanics who already looked at my car and have charged and still not fixed it. As they from a customer point of view are absolutely useless and have no idea what they are doing. Ive lost more money in time with the car being of the road than say paying you $1000 but you got the job done right first time. I only wish I could find the ScannerDanner of the UK.. Anyway love your vids and the work you do, as its done right :)... Oh and please start doing Audi TT TDI's would be great help hehe...
Scanner Danner you're bad ass. Spot on everything that you said. Not that you need my validation,you know exactly what you're worth and still probably don't charge what you should sometimes cause you enjoy helping others. Don't be a parts changer!!
I do love to help others. It truly is all I care about on this side of eternity. It may not look like that here for the layperson, but I'm actually helping them too, by hopefully putting more money in the pockets of the diagnostic tech who gets it right every time! So the tech is happy and the garage is happy AND the customer is happy too! 😊
There is so much involved in modern vehicle electronics that I believe there is no singular person/brain able to retain or know it all. So every time a complex problem arises the technician working on it has to do research on the specific system in order to avoid the parts cannon being fired. This avoidance of lots of parts being thrown at an issue has to come at a price & cannot be absorbed by the tech or garage. Paul, what are your thoughts on segregating the trade at source?? ie. Vehicle tester, engine rebuilder , auto electrical engineer, electronic programmer or something along those lines 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
Customer nickname "lucky". It seems to me that the first reaction by most techs, in the face of alternator insufficiency, would be to replace the alternator. It is interesting that the mechanism of voltage monitoring and alternator output control changed over this model year from controlling field ground to controlling field voltage (with internal ground) and even more damning that the service literature was blatantly and misleadingly wrong, but in this case, the parts canon approach of simply changing the alternator would have been a silver bullet, producing a far better outcome. In short, i don't believe it reasonable to hang this adventure on the customer. Simply chalk up this valuable learning experience to money in the bank for the next time one of these rolls in. Thanks, and great video.
No doubt you are correct, since all i saw was this video, and it was an incredible feat to uncover the technical discrepancy in the service literature. Still I have difficulty justifying charging the customer for this technical tour-de-force. Just my opinion, as i said, great video. @@ScannerDanner
Paul, I could go on and on and tell you how right you are. But you already know that. The research is part of the diag, and with out that research you or I would have little confidence in our diagnosis. No where in service does it say if you hook a potentiometer to the sense circuit and feed it 9-11volts that the code will not set. Out of the box thinking is absolutely necessary on these problem cars. If you have confidence, your service advisor will have confidence and in turn the customer will have confidence. you said it had 14v at the battery, so was it charging? If it did charge, how did the ecm respond to voltage changes under electrical loads?
Thank you! And yes it was charging normally and it didn't matter much what I did with the sense circuit as it seemed to use the input from the TIPM for proper duty cycle control and therefore output voltage of the alt. In other words, only very slight command difference, if any at all. So this circuit is for fault recognition only, yet it can have its own faults lol
People love parts swaps, they see something tangible done, diag time they don't see something shiny and balk at the cost. Thing is, the same mentality will shotgun parts at the vehicle because they fail to consider something new can be faulty. It's a nightmare when the next tech hits, you have the original fault, and potential additional faults installed with the shiny bits. Had someone change alternator, PCM and battery on a vehicle because he 'knew it had to be one of those' - when he finally let me diag we found within 4 minutes the alternator fuse was bad, then, a few minutes later we also confirmed the new PCM had a bad injector driver. They will spend thousands on parts happily, but hate spending anything on diagnosing the problem.
Some of today's vehicles have over 100 control modules/units. All rely on electronic comm with the ECU/ PCU, at set parameters with loads of connections, switches. The ultimate electronic jigsaw puzzle!
wow i've had to constantly rewind to follow this AMAZING coaster. i SWEAR ive rode this ride at least once: (unknowingly) proving out OEM data not completely factual - but im not the engineer so OEM dealer only data is considered the "bible" of information. wow. love scanner danner
I charge for Diagnostic time and Research!!! My time is valuable, so if I need to research a part for proper fitment and function or other, this is helping the customer and my reputation. Now if we did not research and charge less, then damage the customers vehicle then they would get pissed off and say if you knew what you were doing my car/truck would be fixed. So CUSTOMER you cannot have it both ways.
I'm a customer and you should charge me for your time when you are working on my car. You will not know everything about every car, so when you confront a problem you haven't seen before, you still have to go through a diagnostic process to determine root cause. You may need to do some research along the way to determine what to do, but it still is part of diagnosis. But, you should also study on your own time to learn about new systems, models, etc - this is an investment in yourself to sharpen your skills and increase your value to your customers. Value is the ratio of benefits over costs - I'll happily pay more if I get more value. When I pay you for a service, I am investing in you to be around when the next problem occurs and needs to be fixed.
Charge for diagnostic time and if they allow you to do the job work it out with them . . . but if they don't, charge them full time you have invested. Knowledge is power, and diagnostic tools and updates are not free or cheap. Somebody has to pay and it should not be the TECHNICIAN because time is money and it is not his Vehicle. I totally agree with you Paul and I do not like working for free.🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
hi paul i say yes to a point as the research you will use information alldata autodata or even maufactures data you pay for to speed the job up ie research or you could spend hours or days working on a system to get it sorted so the cost for finding and the tech paying for info should be charged
Hi scannerdanner i just have a question that maybe our delt with. No injector pluse as i searched alot off our vids.i have power to both connectors as soon as put to crank no injector pluse.i done what our done on our vids points to the driver in ecu.but what puzzling me when crank the power side to the injectors fluctuate from 9 back to 12 is that normal for a bad driver.thankyou
I replied, then it disappeared. Anyway, I need year, make, model, engine to help further but one injector driver that fails is not going to cause a no start, it would be a single cylinder misfire.
@@ScannerDanner sorry about lack off info.its a ford xg ute manual 4 litre 6 cylinder. PIP TFi Distributor EEC-IV ecu.its batch firing i think all injectors fire off one driver.all 6 injectors do not pulse.all good untill cranking.ignition wakes up ecu/ecu prime pump. no check engine light,all relays are good put a new earth from battery to engine.made 1 from engine to chassis cleaned checked all earths.earth on ecu read 0.3 off resistance.rpm needle moves just a bit when cranking.done back probing from connection back to ecu all good until you go crank 0.thats green and brown wires to ecu driver. allso tested with a test light as you have shown no plusing off light dead.done resistance test as you have shown where you put probe on connection end other on ground on car, every wire i probe all read the same 0.8 even wires from ecu side 200 m test touch the 2 probe together from multimeter reading was 0.8 same as all wires.everthing ive learnt from your vids kept pointing me to the ecu driver but as you say its a big call to pay cash out a ecu if not the problem.all got spark and fuel just no injector pluse as all six injectors are new and are all good resistances and firing as i have a injector tester.i wrote this before it didn't work thats why you that other comment about spark ect. I live in Australia just trying get old girl fired up thankyou for you time and excellent vids. peace
I agree with you.. But to play devils advocate: at the same time, it ends up forcing customers to just ditch these old junker cars because they cost too much to diagnose with these wild rabbit holes; so then you end up losing a chunk of the market. So there's always a balance happening. it's called "price discovery".. There comes a certain point where people will just simply refuse to pay it and stop bringing you their cars. But I do get your point, if they insist on having it fixed, and you're putting in several hours over getting to the bottom of the issue, you deserve to get paid for that.
All great points Paul! I run a one man shop. So maybe a little different than some of these bigger shops when it comes to billing the client. But between all the service writer duties, parts ordering, invoicing, talking with the clients or suppliers and actual diagnostic or time spent on the vehicle for repairs . I don’t hardly have time to sleep. Long story short, when I’m at work, I’m getting paid. I don’t care whether I’m upfront at the computer or physically wrenching on a car. That time needs to be paid. And my bill reflects that every time! This research time that has become such a big topic, that’s work! If I’m sitting at a computer pouring over diagrams or TSB’s or data, so I can fix my clients vehicle efficiently and correctly. Then I need to be getting paid for it because like any other business, the money has to keep coming in. Any client that’s not willing to pay for your time researching, is in my opinion a client you do not want. Research is essential in our field. Like you stated, we can’t possibly be completely up-to-date on every single make and model coming through the door, that is just unrealistic. I always let my clients know that I have a one hour MINIMUM for diagnostic. If it’s looking like something that will take more time, when I get to that point I let them know. I will call and discuss the options before proceeding. This ended up being a longer comment than I intended, but we need to stop underselling ourselves. What we do is very complex, and takes an immense amount of knowledge. Furthermore, these clients should be happy. We are not throwing parts at their vehicle, because we all know that can be very expensive. Way more expensive than paying some guy another hour or so he can do his research.
The correct and honest message customers need to know : "...... whether I’m upfront at the computer or physically wrenching on a car. That time needs to be paid".
i'm a retired Network Engineer. I can completely relate. Had so many complaints about charging $200 an hour to diag and fix a 7 million dollar network that required 99.9% uptime. So yeah, get paid for the research.
Id happily pay for a competent electrician rather than some parts changer who cant diagnose a corroded wire and ends up changing everything he can think of.
My research usually starts and ends with Mr.ScannerDanner. Thank You for Your Time. You are the one who has taught me how to read my scope and trust in my diagnosis beyond a flowchart that says replace this, if the DTC resets replace that then this then that. Thank God you made me more then a parts changer 🙏 🙌
Awesome comment. Thank you!
@ScannerDanner all 4 sensors have read normal and I had just about given up when I decided to take a break and watch another one of your classes. Just happened to glance at my scantool and seen that B2S1 HO2 was a steady line but there were 2 switching signals on my line graph. Paused your video and noticed B2S2 was switching in time with B1S1.... unplugged B2S2 and B2S1 went to default 1890mV. God Bless You as You have Blessed me.
Scanner danner you are the man!! We need more techs like you in this industry even dealerships throw parts at the car and bill huge amounts of money, can you imagine dealeships that they are supposed to know how the system works and still making bad calls smh.
until shops start apprentices at more than minimum wage, (which is still 7.25 federal and the same in PA where Paul and I both work) we will never get competant techs. The median income for master techs in this field is currently around 67k a year. This also doesnt indicate many mechanics work upwards of 50-60+ hours a week. A neighbor of mine joined the plumbers union in Philly and started as an apprentice at 25 an hour.
There is a serious pay issue with this industry as well as training disconnect. Many dealerships will only satisfy shop competence requirements. So why should any technician earning minimum wage or only slightly higher even enter the field when they can go work at mcdonalds and take home way more money due to not having to pay for school loans and continually update their tools. We also need a better apprenticeship system. Don't take the tallented young man/women and stick them in the quick lane oil change portion. Set them under a few different A/B techs and allow them to learn more on the job and have a system in place that requires their continuing education after set periods of time. Many neglect sending employees to training if its not required by the manufacturer, and many aftermarket shops neglect training all together.
The training within our industry needs to be better now than ever. These cards are extremely complex and diverse in the systems implimented. But some "trade schools" charging premiums are still teaching on outdated vehicles more than 15 years old.
Yeah, A good diagnostics technician should be paid for his time.
It's really worth it
The problem is..... Finding a good tech.
@@Ashroyer86 agreed 100% too many techs simply read the error codes, google the part closely associated with it and simply just replace the parts. That's if your lucky, i've had a few mechanics lie and screw me over.
When you take your car to the shop, do you expect to be charged a couple hours labor because the mechanic watched a few youtube videos to figure out how to replace your part causing the problem?
Or do you take it to the expert expecting them to already be trained and experienced and only think you should be charged for the actual repair?
@@sumduma55 you're not serious? You know any "experts" that have intimate knowledge of every single of the thousands of components created every year for the hundreds of vehicle models and all their iterations? Maybe you should go to a wizard or a warlock lol
Experts are people that understand how and why things work and can follow the pathology needed to diagnose the problem. Like going to a doctor (expert) and they run tests and charge you for those tests. Do you tell your doctor "you're supposed to be an expert, why do you need to run tests?" No, you don't... Complex systems and new developments in technology make some repairs very challenging and no one person knows it all.
Reset your expectations back to reality.
@@cryptoking7093 what is the difference between being charged for the tuition of an auto mechanics course and being charged for you to learn how a system works so you can diagnose it like you originally said you would?
I say to people all the time, “a shops best guy is the one producing outcomes the fastest and with the highest quality, or accuracy, in the case of diags.” This is the highest paid guy in the shop as a rule. Now ask yourself, does it make sense to bill this guy out for the least amount of money because he completed the job faster than others!? The answer is obviously no! If shops bill out their best guys for less they will go broke.
Scanner Danner, you are on the money with this no matter what other people think! Keep on educating man! The industry needs you!
Thank you so much
The main purpose of this video is to define "research" and what it is I am actually talking about when I say that. Of course accuracy is key in all of this! We cannot charge for our expertise in the way that I am describing if we are not accurate in our call the very first time! There is no room for error, especially when it comes to making a call on a say a $2000 module or even worse, a $10000 high psi fuel pump on a heavy duty diesel engine! Are you $10,000 sure??
Is your book available in the uk?
What an amazing example of the cost & effort, that goes into fixing these new systems, which is just a simple fix for Mr. Customer
Thanks for sharing this great part of the case study👍
Stay Safe & Blessed Guy's❤
Thank you for the massage it's truth the many people don't want to understand they think of money but they don't appreciate the man Life effort for the job God bless the truth u said
Tell me there's a way to contact Chrysler to let them know they have a flowchart discrepancy?!
@@ramborain1 yes sir, we can ship anywhere! Thank you
www.scannerdanner.com
To all the whiners; was it OK for the last 2 shops who worked on the vehicle and charged the customer for a PCM, an alternator and labor? But it's not OK for a competent tech [last resort] to then correctly diagnose and repair the vehicle and charge for the solution?
thank you, exactly!
Youre whining.
Spot on. The customer has to learn from the experience and accept the garages he used made the wrong calls and he paid for it. Lesson learned and never go back. Once you go to a new shop then everything that happened before doesn't matter, slate wiped clean and you go forward from there. It is then up to the customer to decide if he wants to go back to the previous failed repair attempts and dispute/recover costs based on the diagnostics/bill from shop that fixed the problem.
Look, no one ask for your perfectly logical conclusion. Of course it’s okay to rip-off the customer and charge for labor they don’t need rather than actually figure out what’s going on…
Amen!
I spent 15 years in the dealership doing everything properly and how you should do it. Diagnosing issues correctly and being paid the time do it. Got in a motorcycle accident and was off work for couple years. Started working at a small shop in my town. The owner is a firm believer in go out to the parking lot, scan the codes and order a part based on the code. It drives me ABSOLUTELY INSANE! Not to mention when I say charge for diag, and do it right. He says people won’t pay for diag. They think you are ripping them off and they won’t come back. I may be going back to the dealer.
Yes, a very common problem - but you cannot change your boss. So, you'll get sick for staying in a job, where you can't do satisfying work. Seems like a good idea to look for the next job.
I think many of us are in this situation. I think this is the result of some bosses not having experience in the field under the gun. Sad but true!!!
As a customer I want to pay for diagnostic time. a garage should not guess I want a car that works and the quote is correct
We don't know everything about every vehicle but know the diagnostic process. We're diagnosticians and vehicles and problems are increasingly and exceedingly complex and require prep and research before approaching a concern. This is all part of the diagnostic process.
@Not only a member But the president Seems like you have no idea what you doing - except running your mouth all over comments, which makes you look like “know everything” which in fact knows nothing!
@Not only a member But the president Exactly, your sore body tells you that you do brakes and suspension! That’s all! 😂
@Not only a member But the president Olde than you!!! That’s for sure! 😂
Hey Paul, this video should go viral! The integrity of some technicians is not acceptable. We are pushed in a corner and are not allowed the time to do the research. We are playing both ends against the middle like you said between wrong or absent service info and junk new parts, new/reman with the customer paying for it all. We should get paid for research time and allowed to do so to prevent guessing. I see this all the time. I work for a transmission shop now and I have general repair in my back ground. I have been one of your subs since 2012. Also had the premium channel for a time. I’m considering jumping back in just to keep up with the hidden changes!!! It is really sad how the manufacturers are fleecing the customers! The dealerships and shop owners are helping them by not giving the technician the time to make the right call. I am not speaking about the guys and gals out there who are really good, I’m talking about the ones who want to really be good but don’t get the experience/chance because of the time issue. Thanks for the video and your work to bring awareness of a broken system. Peace brother!!!
I'm pinning this comment after mine runs for a bit. Thank you so much. Perfect! All of it!
@@ScannerDanner no problem! Just like you say, “ Snap-on you need to fix this!!!”. They own Mitchell pro demand and they need to fix that too!!!!!
@@Thunderroad8517 UA-cam is completely stupid now. I didn't know this was you Michael until the reply in my email. wtf they don't give me names anymore, they give me the @ fist and something else. Though yours is clear now lol
Time ,knowledge and money spent on diagnostic tools aren’t cheap. I agree with you on charging for your services. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Love the video.
Good video Paul👍🏻! I really enjoy diagnosing just about anything. Sometimes I think that we will almost have to start specializing in a few select manufactures in order to be able to diagnose/repair things in a timely manner. Seems like so many cars these days require specific scan tools, subscriptions and special tools it’s almost a loosing battle trying to stay up to date on all years/makes/models.
That is something Chrysler never taught in my factory training. Always do your due diligence.
This is the single most important issue facing us today. The combined elements of fast changing technology which gets more complicated yearly + the side effects of the pandemic (skilled worker shortage, supply line issues & trusted new parts issues) have converged and is represented by Paul Danner in this video.
Unfortunately, its the last two links in the chain that feel the most pain; the repair shops and the customers. Its unfair for both groups to have to shoulder the burden of this perfect storm.
-Some of the major issues will work themselves out but some will not.
The age of specialization & complication is upon us. The once workable ‘fix every car’ facility can no longer cope. Its time shops and technical folks limit themselves according to their strengths for their sake as well as their customers. This will need to extend to the education and training sectors as well as parts manufacturing.
The details and accuracy needed to be successful are being ignored, lost or skipped.
Our future slogan may be simplify or perish.
Thank you Paul for bringing this issue to the masses.
I’m not a mechanic by trade, but I’m a weekend wanna be, so here’s my $0.05.
Do I want to know up front what it’s gonna cost for you to look at my vehicle? Yes!
Do I want communication with the mechanic (not person answering phone)? Yes!
Do I want to be told after the first initial diag fee is up that you are working towards the issue? Yes!
Do I want to be told the cost per hour (even if it’s the same as the original diag fee) moving forward? Yes
The more information the mechanic can give the client, the more likely the customer will be to paying you to fix the train wreck they dropped off. Coming at a customer after 6 hrs and asking for $800 isn’t gonna be good. Communication is key! Great video as always Paul!
Communication reigns supreme!
@@dizzy2020 I will agree 100%, but in a case like this one that’s above say like an ABS pump module talking to a tech helps. Plus I’m going to a local shop because I’m looking for some 1 on 1 communication. Does that make sense?
@@ScannerDanner Yes!
@@dizzy2020 Talking to a tech who is repairing a vehicle is a waste of time, and therefore money. Direct communication on a diagnostic does use billable time but can save way more time than it takes. Would you rather have a reasonably accurate description of the vehicle history and when the fault manifests or chinese whispers from the "well trained" 🤣🤣🤣 service advisor?
Thank you so much for showing the complexity of these vehicles and why it has to be charged for
Man I have missed watching your videos! Teaching has consumed all of my time while on the road and I give all of my time to my family when I’m home. Great to see PJ there also!
Man got to love that factory info. I especially like when the vehicle in the bay is newer than 5 years. Tons of reading material in Alldata but doesn’t say a whole lot about how a system actually works. I charge 3 hours up front to begin diagnostics but if it’s something new to me, chances are I’m going to lose my butt on that first one. I don’t pay for any schools or seminars at this point so this is where that schooling money is spent for me. I learn hands on and usually after failure so I just go with that flow. Been working for me over the 30+ years I’ve been a mechanic.
Really enjoy the videos man
Totally agree. That's why I always take a few minutes to explain to a customer what I did and why I am billing for it. The more info they get the better they feel about the bill.
Good video. My boss sells an hour diag for a check engine light. Anything wonky like this, he sells 2 hours to start, and tells the customer it can go up from there. I like that. Puts less pressure on me and gives me more latitude to fix it right the first time.
Outstanding video! I couldn’t agree more, we all need to bill for our time and we need to be accurate.
I always love your videos , learn a lot from your knowledge .
Couple weeks ago I had a 2002 Honda Civic with a tdc code ,,, car would go into limp mode when set ,, customers husband changed the camshaft position sensor ,, I used a scope on it and verified the wave patterns were correct ,,, I talked them into timing belt because they couldn’t remember last time it was changed and car has almost 200,000 on it ,,
I did timing belt job , inspected the reluctor wheel on the cog and all was fine , figured while I was there I’d replace crank shaft position sensor and verify the wiring was fine ,,, put all back togeather start car and sure enough tdc code cam back but with long crank time , ,,, scoped crank and cam And the wave patterns are on point ,, timing is perfect ,,, having bad luck with after market parts , I talked them into factory cam sensor and sure enough all is fixed
I don’t know that was the fix as the wave patterns matched ,, but lesson learned with Honda wants it’s factory denso sensor lol
Interesting comments.I am retired since 2014 on this trade and still learning.Keep up the good work
You are right on the button, Paul. The techs should be paid for their time, and if the customer disagrees then they should seek their compensation for that bill from the manufacturers. Added to that it was the customer's choice on the type of cars they wanted to own, and with their specific set of problems.
Preach! 30yr tech here.
Must get paid for our time.
I didn't build it. I didn't sell it, I didn't buy it, I didn't drive it, I didn't break it. But it's my fault when Mr/Mrs. customer has to pay me when I fix it.
Preach it brother. Thank you!
Wisdom promoting the truth Steve's ur The man Paul ur the man
You’re 100% right! Research to diagnose a issue with a customers car to get it right the first time is essential and we should be paid for that time.
just because you said charge for your time….imma hit the sub button. I tell folk all the time that my time and tools gotta pay itself.
Welcome! Thank you
Someone who understands my pain
Preach Danner Preach!!!!….
Speak the truth
Diagnostics: to pay someone for his or her time (working on your vehicle) : to give someone money for the time he or she spent (working on your vehicle)
Your spot on. This topic is why so many have left the automotive industry. Try working on flat rate and being told that DTC (fill in the blank) pays 1.2 diagnostics time. Meanwhile it takes you 3. So you just worked 1.8 for free solving a problem. Wrong information, diagnostic tools that don't do what you need them to, defective parts, and the list goes on and on. Technicians are in high demand and there are so many reasons why. Now I see trade schools with 6 months training and your certified. Like the man just said he's still learning. You can't learn the entire vehicle in 6 months. Even OEM diagnostic tools and information can be wrong, all over the web you see it. Dealers that can't fix the car they sold you.
Very good video Paul and Caleb! You guys have done so much to change the industry along with many of the other technicians on UA-cam! Bravo for all your hard work and dedication!
Excellent video Paul! I run into this daily in the aviation world. Yep, those manuals have mistakes too. The “secret” technique of all above average diagnosticians is DESCRIPTION and OPERATION or the other terms you find. You must know without a doubt how and why things work the way they do or you will never fix it properly. We absolutely must be paid for the hours of research each time.
Wow, just stumbled into this channel and I find it immensely helpful and informative. Keep up the amazing content
The criticism will come form customers who do not understand whats being done (educate & communicate), or people who have a pre conceived idea that us techs & shops rip people off. You will never win with these people sadly, how ever much you try to reason with them. I would point out to them that a good technician will 'diagnose' their car correctly & not guess, therefore resulting in an accurate repair of the actual fault. This saves them money & repair time by being correct 1st time. Or would they rather keep firing the parts cannon until it & their wallet is empty?! Paul, you are spot on & we appreciate your campaigning on this important issue. Thankyou!
Diag time
It’s important
We need to charge for it
You're absolutely right, I tell my boss that all the time and he doesn't take in the fact that if I take a car apart inside and find and fix the problem now I have to put everything back together and that takes time, he doesn't think about that.
Just had a customer spend over $7k on lifters, injectors, crusty old pigtail, plugs, wires, then gave up... I spent 7+ hours (mostly testing voltage drop, compression, injector drop, current and spark waves Over and over again. All PIDs appeared normal till I was watching you and noticed B2S2 HO2 sensor started switching like an upstream sensor. Paused your video and went and unplugged B2S2 and B2S1 went to 1890mV....👀 now I'm drinking a beer finishing your video.
You are so right, the amount of customers say do you charge for diagnosis “ yes we do”
Bob Oxford Vehicle Electronics.
Definitely a great video Mr Danner if more people in the industry did and thought like this all technicians would benefit
You are also teaching the customer that a proper diagnosis has great importance to their total repair cost and quality of service!
I was an Avionic technician when I was in the Army. we were told you can't fix something. If you don't know how it works, you must have information on what your are working on to help you to diagnostic it
Amazing content as usual. Really insightful! Good diagnostics, especially involving research can be very time consuming. Many thanks and greetings from the UK
Great one Paul! I have been fortunate to be able to bill all my time... I am upfront with the customer... You may see me 20-30-40 minutes in front of a computer but it's for your car... I cant fix what even the engeniers cant figure out! i can throw 500$ worth of parts at it but it will not fix it... And they understand... Probably because it had already had 500$ worth of parts at it!
Hi Paul. Not sure if your going to read this but I just wanted put it out here.
I work in Europe in a shop driven by the biggest aftermarket company.
80% of the time our electric diagrams ,or just service info in general, are wrong or missing. which is really sad… But this have taught me to really think logically (my colleagues is always asking how I know certain stuff) but it’s really tough to be able to always make the right call yet I’m rarely wrong.
I keep telling my bosses that we need better info but nothing happens.
When I’m writing this now I’m not sure what I wanted from this comment but I guess I just wanted to say that I wish to be like you when I get older.
I feel for you Euro guys, the information available on those systems are some of THE WORST!! Thank you!
Paul you are an inspiration to every tech out there, you undoubtedly love this industry, you're going to have negativity in a crowd of thousands personal I've always believed techs should charge for this type of work. If there unhappy get out or step up, this industry has to change starting with our peers then the public. Please continue what you do best educate
Thank you so much!
There are usually two ways to do a repair. The correct way and the cheap way. Most of our days we are correct, but the occasional problem vehicles require the ability to charge for the time it takes to do it right. Not charging properly for diagnosis leads to guesses.
People should not expect their mechanic to work for hours for no charge, or if so, don’t complain when they guess.
Our automotive family MUST watch this!!!!
Between the information provided to the repair side of their dealers varying from what they release to the public and missing and completely incorrect information provided to the aftermarket we've found ourselves with a massive challenge as independent repair providers.
Increased research cost has often been subsidized by the repair shops and technicians, or worse yet they've simply guessed instead of testing.
The dealer? They often turn away the complex faults seen by the aftermarket, and if they do take them, it's more acceptable to parts cannon or call the help line.
The manufacturer? Let's be real.... they don't care nearly as much about fixing cars as they do selling them (and the parts needed to fix them).
So who takes the hit here? The independent facilities, their staff and the consumer of course.
What do we do to fix it? I have no clue.
If we charge what we need to charge to fix the cars and properly pay our people to do it? Well, in many cases it pushes the client to replace the car.
If the client replaces the car, it places them in a modern automobile that are often seen as consumable as the infamous Bic lighter.
Driving them to the dealer, who is cutting warranty times and working to pay techs less..
If we subsidize the testing and repair, we can't pay our people what they deserve or meet the quality folks are used to seeing in the dealership world.
Many of us are trying to balance this, but the infighting in our industry has us bickering with one another as opposed to developing a way to overcome these challenges.
It's why we should all be working with organizations like The Equipment and Tool Institute to make sure we're sharing our perspectives with the people who can improve the situation!
What's thr Equipment and Tool Institute Lucas?
And I agree, the in fighting is killing us!
Great video Paul as always, just watched Mike '' Flat Rate Master '' and it was based on training great video. Research and Training is a must you could not have said it any better.Have a great week.And also nothing is free today.
Diagnostics, especially after parts have been installed often becomes more complicated. I’ve got over 20 years of stories while honing my skills as a diagnostic tech. Sometimes a small amount of diagnostic billing results in thousands in repairs, sometimes a large diagnostic bill results only a few hundred in repairs. The stories of the large diagnostic bills more often then not is after thousands of repairs have already been done.
If consumers actually want logically built vehicles that are reliable and easier to diagnose, please make that known by the manufacturer. It doesn’t need to be as ridiculous as many models are. Luckily I love my job, and helping people gets me up in the morning.
exactly, thank you
you are a great professional keep it up no matter what others say .keep up so good
I agree with everything you said but I think there's a reason why technicians are leaving this industry and saying they can't make the money they used to be able to make. The labor times are rapidly changing and they're not increasing even though the cars are more complex they're shrinking and I know that has to have an effect on these technicians that are out there every day turning riches trying to make a living and they're having to fix more cars and work faster and harder just to make the same amount of money as they did 2 or 3 years ago
I second that.
2021 Lincoln aviator 3.0 TT. Book says 4 hrs to replace the right side valve cover gasket. Quoted the customer 4 hrs and went through some slow and painfully regretful HOURS.
0 access to the right side turbo inlet and outlet hose clamps. Nearly impossible to remove lower bolt on the HPFP bracket and actually impossible to put it back. People writing labor times don't actually try it.
7:03 LOL 😂 ... Seriously though, too many people/customers still have the old mentality that "mechanics" should just look at a car and listen to it a little bit and know immediately what's wrong (like it used to be decades ago - sometimes even over the phone or text/email messages). The uninitiated general population have no idea about the complexity of their cars and what techs are dealing with today. We need to educate customers the best we can, and that's what you did in this video.
I got fed up with crappy diag procedures a long time ago. Several oems are bad for not providing sufficient info and specs for the techs to be able to do their job. Chrysler is number 1 for this. Fortunately I am on the verge of getting out of this work completely I
you are true 100 % sir please continue on this
hey Paul got that right i been arguing that point with my boss 10 years ago i had a Isuzu another tech had this one he installed 2generators same issue dtc and not charging . i did voltage drop testing flow chart it all pointed to bad gen. we installed a 3rd one still same thing thing . i demanded a OE they finally got me one issue fixed the ECM DIDNT LIKE WHAT IT was seeing . another one a f 150 tech cranks sometimes starts and stalls most times cranks no start setting a dtc crank sensor code dont remember . he replaced crankshaft sensor ECM tested all 3 wires had harness apart pin tension nothing I cked all of his diag work he was right everything was ok so i went to description of operation . The trigger wheel has a total of 35 teeth spaced 10 degrees apart with one empty space for a missing tooth. The 6.8L ten cylinder pulse wheel has 39 teeth spaced 9 degrees apart and one 9 degree empty space for a missing tooth. I copy this from all data so we did a lab scope test on it it looked ok but i counted the humps on the scope and guess what it had 39 and this was a V8 . so we counted the teeth on the engine verified yes sir had the one for a 10 cyl. called dealer and verified had same physical size . forgot to mention it was a reman engine installed at a body shop . we didnt do repair dont know if they were going to replace the part or get anther engine . we billed for 8 hours diag . thet paid it no problem .no one could figure it out .
perfect example! Thank you for sharing!
Man I just went to war with my delivery car long story short was a short to ground crank wires .I'm gonna sighn up for your classes online .all love guys thsnks
Thank you! Looking forward to having you there
@ScannerDanner for sure had a socket set instead of binky .but just really got good last few years .I'll see ya online 55min away from Pittsburgh if yins ever need some good pizza 🍕 holler
This was my main pet peeve when I was involved in the car business. Why should we not charge for our time when anyone else in any job wants to get paid for their time. This is also the reason why I always preferred to work on cars that DID NOT come from other shops and already had parts thrown at it. It just introduces new problems that may not have been there to begin with.
Also, it's impossible for techs to know how to fix every single make and model of vehicle. There is much time spent reading wiring schematics and diagnostic procedures BEFORE you even touch the vehicle.
it does not matter what type of repair i used to do, i would always spend some time on research, timing marks, manufacturer information, wiring diagrams, superseded parts and the list goes on, if you run in blind you will hit a problem, knowledge is the key to success, how can you repair something if you don't know a thing about it, you can't, and that's the answer.
i have seen it so many times in this trade, like the car everyone has looked at but no one can repair, i even had cars where 4 people have looked at it, it comes to me because im the top tech and the last chance, it has a blown fuse, just a 15 amp fuse, nothing wrong with the circuit, and the reason is because no one bothered to spend 5 mins looking at the fuse box lid/diagram to work out which fuses would stop the car from working.
anyone who says this time should not be in the bill has never worked on a car, or if they have it is not in the correct manner, they don't know what they are talking about and lets face it, there is a lot of that going on here on the internet, armchair expert's.
The selfish assertion that diagnostics should not be charged for is absolutely absurd........with a qualifier. And you kind of said it. The qualifier is that, the diagnostic approach needs to be competent and thorough. I compare this to the medical field. Do doctors and hospitals get paid for "research" (diagnostics)? LOL. Of course they do. Do people bitch about that? Well, depends on how good their insurance is.
A competent, skilled diagnostician is priceless in my opinion.
And to expect to get those skills, to say nothing of the expensive equipment involved, for free, is selfish at best, absurd at worst.
And by the way, you and Eric are like the Mayo Clinic in my book.
Very impressed.
Perspective, I'm a Kia tech at a dealership. In our electrical class, at the Kia training facility, our teacher tells us, " the wiring diagrams are NOT 100% accurate, they are more of a reference. How's that for assurance? Set up your diagnostic path with something that hopefully is good information. I've been led astray many times due to incorrect service information, luckily in a dealer, when the tech figures that out and builds a case we can get compensated. These independent shops are eating that money due to the manufacturer not being diligent in verifying the accuracy of their posted information. Customers need to be aware of this, and understand real world diagnostic issues.
Thanx for another informative video Paul.
As for charging customers for R&D on most jobs almost all jobs I say no never charge over the basic hour because U win most & lose few & that margin widens w/experience. 95% of the time w/in 10 minutes U should know if your hour will be inert & require an up sell for more diag time, besides it shows customer's a lot of trust when U give them a back out option for no charge B4 wasting 1 hour ... I am cool like that.
Regarding this particular vehicle/situation DEFINITELY MERITS what diagnostic time U gave an estimate for over the initial 1 hour... 🎤
The Last Tech to actually Fix the Car gets ALL the Questions that the previous tech's should've gotten. Humans
I agree with you we should charge for research , but unfortunately i don't see how we can. Take the average working class customer and it wouldn't be long until the repairs were unaffordable.
Why should that be our problem though we didn't build the car, or buy it, or break it. I see no reason the repair costs should my problem.
Exactly
@@crashm1 I totally agree with you, but if i charged research time plus diag plus the actual repair, most of the crap that i have to work on would be a write off. I finished my apprenticeship over 40 years ago and if i had charged research time i could have retired 10 years ago, perhaps I've just been a busy fool.
At the dealership level I see a lot of leftover information from year-to-year that doesn’t get updated. It sucks that you can’t trust factory service info to be correct. Also a common diagnostic step from the manufacturer: substitute a known good PCM. WTF
Worst ones ever right? I mean, who's got a known good PCM sitting around lol
@@ScannerDanner It’s like the person writing the flow charts has zero diagnostic experience. Ohm test the wiring and then substitute a known good PCM… yeah right. The kicker is that warranty usually doesn’t pay for diagnostic time.
@@Jangus I once decided to follow the flow chart, which eventually led me to replacement of the very expensive component!
The only problem was - testing that component was the first thing that I did, and it was OK!
Flow charts only good to get “big picture”, rest of the job you have to use your own “gray matter”!!!
Especially on GM vehicles where 'used' don't work.
It takes people like us to diagnosed these cars. Most places say they don't know what is wrong and send it. People not wanting to pay is the reason why I don't want to dig into cars. Side note.I did yesterday It took 3 hours.
Diagnosis is the hard part. Hanging a bunch of new parts such as brakes, suspension, water pump, radiator, exc. is what is easy and makes the money.
Solicitors & Accountants charge for every minute, every phone call, every email, every syllable uttered & for what- Time is precious, We must respect ourselves Touche Scanner Danner
MAKE NO MISTAKE: An accomplished auto technician is as LEARNED as a computer hardware technician. So many wires, modules, and connectors in between so many computers. With knowledge of software coding I know that catching and THROWING errors is at the bottom of the list meaning car's are still some behind the curve at diagnosing themselves. TECHICIANS, therefore, are good as gold. GOOD technicians, that is. Additionally, being physically fit to climb under dashes, into engine compartments, under carriages is beneficial too... Least "vertigo!"
Service information is also VERY important to have. It makes it VERY difficult to diagnose electrical without information such as connector locations, wiring diagrams, pinouts, system operation theory.
@@mph5896 uh.... service data is REQUIRED! Not just nice but REQUIRED! And us diy'ers MUST digest theory of operation before poking wires
@@tomtke7351 There are different levels of service information. Depending on the repair, it may require more in depth service info such as factory over a generic such as Alldata.
@@mph5896 Alldata DIY is also good and accessible via cell phone
So in the HVAC field , you are actually required by the Gas code to diagnose and repair based off of the manual. The principles are all the same but with more advanced technologies, the set up and what to use is solely on the code, which requires research
These cars are not ours. Any other companies charge everything that goes to the consumer/customer/client.
Anything done to a vehicle whether by the hour or by the 1/4 hour should be charged. Every can of brake clean, every quart of oil, every drop of washer fluid. Even our time, our inventory is our time. Our time isn't cheap. Our time is valuable.
Amen
Zoom Auto ur on Danner level I hope God gives me the wisdom u 2have I'm. 15 year's in the industry end I agree 💯 just need people who is willing to speak the truth
@@JoseTorres-co2ho I've complained about these sorts of things publicly many times on my fb wall. Yes, I've complained. It's ok for us to complain about crummy customers just as they complain about us that charge properly to fix these cars that take them and their families to the beach or to work or to school or daycare. Vehicles are what they call a LUXURY ITEM. The same person complaining about us charging appropriately for our time is out there buying Nikes and marble countertops. They are going to be ok. Charge the time and if the first guy doesn't pay, the next guy will 🤷🏻 I'm a little more harsh about this subject.
I've offered to let people stack my wood for me while I work on their car to save them money.
And sure enough, they went elsewhere, so now I have to pay someone else to stack my wood. And to do so, I need to be profitable.
I found a egr problem that started when a eng was replaced with the wrong emissions sticker ,ie it was the same year same model same eng displacement but eng had No egr passage.. had to Research engine numbers, Casting found out it had no egr ,but the boss had a Pilot braced drill and drilled EGR passage, it worked, past smog, still driving today
Awesome! And crazy btw. Good catch on that one
100% accurate. Lawyers charge for all time spent on your case even our estate lawyers charged for emails.
Doctors charge for a diagnosis not by time. Their NP’s spend lots of time getting history and information you also get charged for that time on top of the diagnosis. Every other industry charges for all this stuff.
Apple and Samsung make massive amounts of profits from these people who argue with charging correctly for diagnostic time and research but they don’t go online crying that those companies are making a healthy profit and charging for all the R&D time and research spent on how to design and sell and market those phones.
People are funny.
As a dealer tech, seeing consistent pattern failures, WE STILL NEED TO DO OUR PROPER DIAG. I know that on a newer Honda Odyssey with an inop reverse camera, it needs the camera from pattern failure, I still have to prove it. I know on a newer ridgeline camera is inop that it has a broken wire in the tailgate harness by the lower tail gate hinge on the driver side. I STILL HAVE TO PROVE IT. If cost of part with labor is cheaper than the diag time, I’m ok with customer opting for that route, but they make the call there. Purge valve low flow on a civic 1.8l, Oem purge valve $35 0.2 install definitely cheaper than 1 hour diag. One of very few scenarios I’m willing to shotgun parts. Diag and testing saves customer money in the long run and keeps us employed 99%, as long as it’s being billed.
Perfect description, thank you
Dyslexia..$53
Hey Paul being at a MB dealership over 30 years total, if the part was bad whether a computer or component we got paid for re diagnose and the r&r of component. We at the dealership do not work for free, and the manufacture will pay for the bad component. They in turn will charge back their supplier. The bills lights heat A/C amongst other things do not go away and must be paid, so we cannot charge the customer for a failed part and the r&r of said component. In Benz world the part if installed by dealer usually will get a 1 year warranty too at least it was before I retired from that field. I can tell you first hand nobody wants to go into this field, why go in spend boo coo of bucks and get a few dollars more than flipping burgers. That does not make sense.
Awesome dude! It's a cheaper for customer to pay some hours more instead for guessing and parts which is not necessarily, indeed and if ... they ready to death (broke) for some future time.
Great find!!!
Speaking about wrong information from Chrysler I remembered when I first started working for the Chrysler dealer and having to diagnose a parasitic draw on a Chrysler crossfire and the trunk light was staying on, after looking for wiring to the trunk latch assembly I noticed wiring colors and pin outs were all wrong.. called tech support at Chrysler and the gentleman there laughed and agreed, then told me that the engineers had messed up transferring the Mercedes wiring to Chrysler wiring and wished me good luck in my diagnostic. Ended up needing a pcm. Problem solved
If I Conect my test light to positive and touch it to wire number 5 with car running the test light should light right , because it’s ground side switch????
This was a power side switched circuit
Nice video Paul thanks for share
Id much rather pay someone like yourself 5-10hrs of diagnostic/research time if that's what it took to fix the problem than the multiple mechanics who already looked at my car and have charged and still not fixed it. As they from a customer point of view are absolutely useless and have no idea what they are doing. Ive lost more money in time with the car being of the road than say paying you $1000 but you got the job done right first time. I only wish I could find the ScannerDanner of the UK.. Anyway love your vids and the work you do, as its done right :)... Oh and please start doing Audi TT TDI's would be great help hehe...
Where are you in the UK? I have some friends over there! Look up @SimplyDiagnostics my friend Steve Scott is the man
@@ScannerDanner Thanks for that, I'm in the NE but will check them out now :)
@@ScannerDannersteve is a very good man ,yes.
Scanner Danner you're bad ass. Spot on everything that you said. Not that you need my validation,you know exactly what you're worth and still probably don't charge what you should sometimes cause you enjoy helping others.
Don't be a parts changer!!
I do love to help others. It truly is all I care about on this side of eternity. It may not look like that here for the layperson, but I'm actually helping them too, by hopefully putting more money in the pockets of the diagnostic tech who gets it right every time! So the tech is happy and the garage is happy AND the customer is happy too! 😊
There is so much involved in modern vehicle electronics that I believe there is no singular person/brain able to retain or know it all. So every time a complex problem arises the technician working on it has to do research on the specific system in order to avoid the parts cannon being fired. This avoidance of lots of parts being thrown at an issue has to come at a price & cannot be absorbed by the tech or garage.
Paul, what are your thoughts on segregating the trade at source?? ie. Vehicle tester, engine rebuilder , auto electrical engineer, electronic programmer or something along those lines 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
100% needs to be done, in particular with the diag guy!
Customer nickname "lucky". It seems to me that the first reaction by most techs, in the face of alternator insufficiency, would be to replace the alternator. It is interesting that the mechanism of voltage monitoring and alternator output control changed over this model year from controlling field ground to controlling field voltage (with internal ground) and even more damning that the service literature was blatantly and misleadingly wrong, but in this case, the parts canon approach of simply changing the alternator would have been a silver bullet, producing a far better outcome. In short, i don't believe it reasonable to hang this adventure on the customer. Simply chalk up this valuable learning experience to money in the bank for the next time one of these rolls in. Thanks, and great video.
you should see the entire case study, it had a bad ECM too and then another bad reman ECM for a totally separate issue
No doubt you are correct, since all i saw was this video, and it was an incredible feat to uncover the technical discrepancy in the service literature. Still I have difficulty justifying charging the customer for this technical tour-de-force. Just my opinion, as i said, great video. @@ScannerDanner
How about that customer who says he saw a UA-cam video and the guy fixed it in like 5 minutes. 🤣
Paul, I could go on and on and tell you how right you are. But you already know that.
The research is part of the diag, and with out that research you or I would have little confidence in our diagnosis. No where in service does it say if you hook a potentiometer to the sense circuit and feed it 9-11volts that the code will not set.
Out of the box thinking is absolutely necessary on these problem cars. If you have confidence, your service advisor will have confidence and in turn the customer will have confidence.
you said it had 14v at the battery, so was it charging? If it did charge, how did the ecm respond to voltage changes under electrical loads?
Thank you! And yes it was charging normally and it didn't matter much what I did with the sense circuit as it seemed to use the input from the TIPM for proper duty cycle control and therefore output voltage of the alt.
In other words, only very slight command difference, if any at all. So this circuit is for fault recognition only, yet it can have its own faults lol
People love parts swaps, they see something tangible done, diag time they don't see something shiny and balk at the cost. Thing is, the same mentality will shotgun parts at the vehicle because they fail to consider something new can be faulty. It's a nightmare when the next tech hits, you have the original fault, and potential additional faults installed with the shiny bits. Had someone change alternator, PCM and battery on a vehicle because he 'knew it had to be one of those' - when he finally let me diag we found within 4 minutes the alternator fuse was bad, then, a few minutes later we also confirmed the new PCM had a bad injector driver. They will spend thousands on parts happily, but hate spending anything on diagnosing the problem.
Some of today's vehicles have over 100 control modules/units. All rely on electronic comm with the ECU/ PCU, at set parameters with loads of connections, switches. The ultimate electronic jigsaw puzzle!
Sir 1 letter car MAF sensor 5 g / s at idel and total fuel trims -40 plz help
wow i've had to constantly rewind to follow this AMAZING coaster. i SWEAR ive rode this ride at least once: (unknowingly) proving out OEM data not completely factual - but im not the engineer so OEM dealer only data is considered the "bible" of information. wow. love scanner danner
Thank you!
Awesome video buddy!
I charge for Diagnostic time and Research!!! My time is valuable, so if I need to research a part for proper fitment and function or other, this is helping the customer and my reputation. Now if we did not research and charge less, then damage the customers vehicle then they would get pissed off and say if you knew what you were doing my car/truck would be fixed. So CUSTOMER you cannot have it both ways.
I'm a customer and you should charge me for your time when you are working on my car. You will not know everything about every car, so when you confront a problem you haven't seen before, you still have to go through a diagnostic process to determine root cause. You may need to do some research along the way to determine what to do, but it still is part of diagnosis. But, you should also study on your own time to learn about new systems, models, etc - this is an investment in yourself to sharpen your skills and increase your value to your customers. Value is the ratio of benefits over costs - I'll happily pay more if I get more value. When I pay you for a service, I am investing in you to be around when the next problem occurs and needs to be fixed.
Of course! 100% we must continue our training outside of the shop!
Like you said, nobody can know everything about all vehicles, not even dealer mechanics.
Charge for diagnostic time and if they allow you to do the job work it out with them . . . but if they don't, charge them full time you have invested. Knowledge is power, and diagnostic tools and updates are not free or cheap. Somebody has to pay and it should not be the TECHNICIAN because time is money and it is not his Vehicle. I totally agree with you Paul and I do not like working for free.🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Agreed! great job...
hi paul i say yes to a point as the research you will use information alldata autodata or even maufactures data you pay for to speed the job up ie research or you could spend hours or days working on a system to get it sorted so the cost for finding and the tech paying for info should be charged
Great Video!
100% Agree.
Hi scannerdanner i just have a question that maybe our delt with. No injector pluse as i searched alot off our vids.i have power to both connectors as soon as put to crank no injector pluse.i done what our done on our vids points to the driver in ecu.but what puzzling me when crank the power side to the injectors fluctuate from 9 back to 12 is that normal for a bad driver.thankyou
I replied, then it disappeared. Anyway, I need year, make, model, engine to help further but one injector driver that fails is not going to cause a no start, it would be a single cylinder misfire.
@@ScannerDanner and to add to last reply its geetting spark and fuel pumping to regulator.thakyou
@@ScannerDanner sorry about lack off info.its a ford xg ute manual 4 litre 6 cylinder. PIP TFi Distributor EEC-IV ecu.its batch firing i think all injectors fire off one driver.all 6 injectors do not pulse.all good untill cranking.ignition wakes up ecu/ecu prime pump. no check engine light,all relays are good put a new earth from battery to engine.made 1 from engine to chassis cleaned checked all earths.earth on ecu read 0.3 off resistance.rpm needle moves just a bit when cranking.done back probing from connection back to ecu all good until you go crank 0.thats green and brown wires to ecu driver. allso tested with a test light as you have shown no plusing off light dead.done resistance test as you have shown where you put probe on connection end other on ground on car, every wire i probe all read the same 0.8 even wires from ecu side 200 m test touch the 2 probe together from multimeter reading was 0.8 same as all wires.everthing ive learnt from your vids kept pointing me to the ecu driver but as you say its a big call to pay cash out a ecu if not the problem.all got spark and fuel just no injector pluse as all six injectors are new and are all good resistances and firing as i have a injector tester.i wrote this before it didn't work thats why you that other comment about spark ect. I live in Australia just trying get old girl fired up thankyou for you time and excellent vids. peace
I agree with you.. But to play devils advocate: at the same time, it ends up forcing customers to just ditch these old junker cars because they cost too much to diagnose with these wild rabbit holes; so then you end up losing a chunk of the market. So there's always a balance happening. it's called "price discovery".. There comes a certain point where people will just simply refuse to pay it and stop bringing you their cars. But I do get your point, if they insist on having it fixed, and you're putting in several hours over getting to the bottom of the issue, you deserve to get paid for that.