IMO the problem in a nutshell is that every single country's foreign policy can be summed up this way: "Forget coming up with better ideas, let's just manipulate, coerce, and or Force everyone else into accepting our blatantly flawed ideas just because, you know, that's how we've always done it. Always Double Down. Everyone's an adversary or Ally at best. Literally no one's actually interested in true cooperation. Everyone wants to be King of the Hill no matter how much suffering it brings humanity."
I’m surprised by the departure from the question asked at the outset of the debate. Uncharacteristic of IQ2 debates, I thought. They’re debating the question of whether the US’ relative power or hegemonic position in world politics is in decline, not whether the US is retreating in terms of its grand strategy. Those are different questions.
1 thing to keep in mind is Germany, and Britain no longer have empires same as Rome. These aren't horrible places to live. Citizens don't really benefit from empire.
Singh seriously just said the US has arguably performed better than any other country in regard to the pandemic, how did he say that with a straight face? The level of delusion is staggering.
Jakob Smith So you would rather be in Australia were they have taken away all freedom? How stupid are you ? This Scamdemic just further proves how the US is the greatest country in the world
75% of Americans think the country is heading to wrong direction. The number has been very consistent last 10 years no matter who the president was. Yeah. It's the greatest country in the world.. 😆
As a Canadian, I want to see the U.S, China and others work together to address the most important global problems including poverty elimination, health promotion, tackling climate change and so on. This is the global leadership we need. It is pretty disheartening to hear these debaters continuing to beat the anti-China war drums as the kind of "leadership" that they think the world needs. No, thank you!
You think it’s a one sided disagreement? China only wants to work with other countries if it benefits them. And if they’re so great why do all the countries near them protest and fear them? They don’t want to live in a communist surveillance state. China is not a country to “work” with. They are committing genocide on their own people as we speak.
@@aquam3 Most of the protests by countries neighboring China are border disputes centered around tiny pieces of land, and is disproportionately reported on by Western media. But the reality is almost all of them are inextricably tied to China economically both in terms of imports and of exports. I live in Asia and do business here, and I find that most westerners, especially Americans, have an extremely warped view of the reality on the ground. Imagine you are a developing country and looking at it objectively, virtually all of China’s neighbors have been experiencing a sustained economic boom and huge year over year GDP growths for the last two decades, driven almost entirely by their trade with China. Meanwhile the US has been the dominant superpower for nearly a century, and aside from the one other white/anglo country in Canada, America is surrounded by some of the poorest countries on Earth (and I might say seemingly by design). American dominance at its core when seen from the eyes of non-Western countries comes with a heavy dose neo-colonial mentality and racial/cultural superiority complex. I’m not saying that China is some sort of altruistic paragon of virtue, far from it. But the Chinese foreign policies are generally set up as far more of a win-win. China wins more, but there are far more tangible benefits to their partners when compared to the American way. At this point I would go as far as to say that all that’s left of American dominance hinges on just two things - a superior military-industrial complex (though the gap is shrinking especially as China and Russia seemingly have developed a tacid understanding) and a superior media industry/propaganda machine. The economic gap will likely close within the next decade, and the technological gap possibly even sooner. Yeah you are right no one wants to live under Chinese rule, but I don’t think that is what they are selling, nor is it how the non-Western countries see them.
@@M0ebius " driven almost entirely by their trade with China. Meanwhile the US has been the dominant superpower for nearly a century..." Like debt trapped their neighbors? Usurping other nations' territory, claiming their own and threatening sanction if disobeyed? It's true that China's growth spilled over the neighbor's, but this won't prove that it is because China's foreign policy and commercial system served its purpose. It's because the system laid by the US benefits China who now violates and destroys before other nations benefit it. Besides, The US led the global order has brought more prosperity to the world. The global GDP from 1989 to 2016 is more than tripled. You may wanna argue that China took the part of the growth. But that is based on the US engagement policy to China and, again, rule based international order. It is not because of China's policy solo superiority whatsoever. "But the Chinese foreign policies are generally set up as far more of a win-win. China wins more, but there are far more tangible benefits to their partners when compared to the American way." You omit their intellectual theft and coercive trading habits, which violating WTO rules, and has harmed the partner's economy. Also, China manipulates its currency rate and unfairly treat foreign capitals, and shows reluctance even to form economic cooperations like GATT and WTO, both system of which benefits China for the economic growth in early 2000s. Therefore it's unbelievable that "American way" does not benefits the world; its effectiveness has been certainly exemplified by the China's **miracle**. "The economic gap will likely close within the next decade, and the technological gap possibly even sooner." In a book written in 2011, it was 2020 when China's GDP surpasses the US. In 2019, I was 2028, and the recent report says it will be in mid 2030. Even the "dream" come true, 2020/pre-covid analysis say the US GDP surpasses again in 2050 because of the China's population onuses. China is massive but also has structural problems like an untreatable inequality like Central American nations. Under the Xi's "common prosperity" policy, several of tech sectors is shut down. Now that China cannot grow like it is 2010s, this structural problem and political oppression would trigger economic slow down more severely more likely than it is expected. "but I don’t think that is what they are selling, nor is it how the non-Western countries see them." I'm non westerner and acknowledge that most of neighboring nations see China as threats. Nations like Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, India, and some of ASEAN nations, are not in favor of China as a regional leader (let alone global one), by opinions and statistics (even Russia is ambiguous on this.) That's why there is the Quad, CPTPP, AUKUS. The US isn't a quintessential leader, not at all. But that does not mean that the US's leadership has been wrong, not demonstrated likewise. You (probably mainland Chinese?) just underestimate the role of the US and are way uncritical to CCP's propaganda.
@@jnfunvufb Debt trap diplomacy is an example of a piece of propaganda that is repeated again and again by Western media despite the fact that even it has been debunked again and again by independent investigators. And what is the Western alternative to taking Chinese loans and hiring Chinese builders? A ruthless system of resource exploitation that began during colonialism and persists into this day, and “foreign aids” that basically amounts to cash bribes for third world country strongmen. The reason that the Chinese push infrastructure deals over cash loans is specifically to avoid corruption while digesting its excess technical labor. It’s what I mean when I say these policies are structured as win-win scenarios. I’m not sure what you mean by usurping other country’s territory. There are alot of border disputes amongst Asian countries, mostly as a result of unresolved issues leftover from World War II when the American-led west basically arbitrarily assigned many of these territories to their allies. And most of the disputed land are random atolls/reefs/island in the middle of the ocean that only matters now because of under-water resources and tactical rights. The US sanctions more than anybody else in the world, probably combined. I don’t understand why it’s more of an issue when China does it. I agree China prospered because of foreign investments, among them money from the US. I also agree that they got their start copying and stealing intellectual property. That said almost every East Asian economy started off that way (Japan/Taiwan/South Korea), so it’s not uniquely Chinese. What makes China different is just the sheer size and scale. As far as WTO rules, the US routinely ignores and operate above the WTO. In fact the WTO court system has been essentially shut down for many years now since the US has blocked the nomination of new judges due to disliking WTO rulings. This is something I rarely see talked about in American media, and the fact that the US has unilaterally destroyed the WTO makes the claim that China doesn’t follow its rules rather befuddling. As far as currency manipulatiom goes, this one is even more ironic since United States is by far the worse currency manipulator in the world. In fact the US has just printed TRILLIONS of dollars and exported inflation all across the globe for the sole benefit of America at a scale hitherto unseen in human history, and makes what it did in 2008 look like child’s play. And the US economic manipulations is also by far the biggest danger to the world trade, having crashed the global economy every decade for many decades now. I’m getting tired and won’t respond to every single point. And no I’m not a mainland Chinese. I’m actually a Taiwanese American that lives in Asia. For me discussions regarding whether the US or China is “superior” really isn’t that interesting. I just find it weird how little Americans in general actually understands about what is happening around the world and how warped alot of its media presentation seems to be.
The US should have no involvement in the world. It needs to go away. The world needs to work with China and embrace the Chinese way of doing things. China is freer and the people are better off. Only china has the answer. We need to beat the anti-US war drums, not simply silence the anti-China war drums.
Very interesting. But the problem I have with these kind of debates is that all the horrible things China and Russia are doing now, the US has also done in the past. And is Trump a better man than Putin or Xi?
Is America retreating? - ask Canada... the current administration in the US won't even open the door to talk to its nearest and dearest on basic trade matters. They have so many internal troubles to deal with that they need to retreat, and everyone outside the US can see it plain as day. It seems to me that the Against side's argument here is just that America still has a positive attitude and wants to believe it is a global leader. Meanwhile they pointed out the many ways that America has continued to be unable to meet its challenges. Leadership means acting first on those matters that matter the most. America increasingly is acting behind the rest of the world, trailing on climate change, trailing on regulating social media, trailing on .... you name it, they're trailing.
The question itself shows a misunderstanding of the reality, America isn't willfully retreating from it's foolish policies, it is simply declining as all great powers eventually do, America does not have an option but to retreat. By 2050 America will be lucky if it is even a cohesive nation at the federal level let alone a world power, the internal problems have built to a powder keg that is ready to blow at any moment.
Yes. Collapsing from within and also acquiescing to the ambitions of self-styled billionaire oligarchs and the WEF to create a nonelected global "government" with technocracy-style control over all peoples.
History teaches you some patters but you cannot apply them as the model. Things are not simply the same. if we can, humans are not this deplorably stupid and incredibly amazing at the same time.
yes but only when the other country is trying to uncut and circument in all spheres of life like china that is when the problems arises come to india i will give a personal tour.
Indeed. A winning move wouldve been to invest in african infrastructure decades ago instead they are reluctantly forced to do so and even go as far to sabotage chinas efforts. What have they done instead? Blown it to hell and constant coups causing ever more instability. The mere fact that theyre governed by pfizer lobbyists instead of setting up production capacity for the 3rd worlds vaccinations is evidence of hos unfit they are. One could not ask for worse leadership globally. Glad someone is rising up to challenge their inept and terrible leadership
China prefers a multi-polar world over a uni-polar one, and prefers multilateralism over unilateralism. China does not appear to be fond of taking over any role that the US represents (a regime that has been in existence for less than 250 years, and yet not at wars with other countries in only 16 years of its entire existence of 200+ years).
IMO the problem in a nutshell is that every single country's foreign policy can be summed up this way:
"Forget coming up with better ideas, let's just manipulate, coerce, and or Force everyone else into accepting our blatantly flawed ideas just because, you know, that's how we've always done it. Always Double Down. Everyone's an adversary or Ally at best. Literally no one's actually interested in true cooperation. Everyone wants to be King of the Hill no matter how much suffering it brings humanity."
I’m surprised by the departure from the question asked at the outset of the debate. Uncharacteristic of IQ2 debates, I thought. They’re debating the question of whether the US’ relative power or hegemonic position in world politics is in decline, not whether the US is retreating in terms of its grand strategy. Those are different questions.
1 thing to keep in mind is Germany, and Britain no longer have empires same as Rome. These aren't horrible places to live. Citizens don't really benefit from empire.
This is true because they have an empire protecting them, and increasingly they are becoming terrible places to live for their own internal reasons.
I long for the day these can be held in person again. This format just isn't very compelling.
Lol Kristal hahahahaha
Singh seriously just said the US has arguably performed better than any other country in regard to the pandemic, how did he say that with a straight face? The level of delusion is staggering.
Jakob Smith So you would rather be in Australia were they have taken away all freedom? How stupid are you ? This Scamdemic just further proves how the US is the greatest country in the world
75% of Americans think the country is heading to wrong direction. The number has been very consistent last 10 years no matter who the president was. Yeah. It's the greatest country in the world.. 😆
@@usarmycol6087 Goodness you are an idiot.
Even if the country is headed in the wrong direction its still better than any other country
Even the intro and rhetorical questions asked by the moderator directly after the intro come from a very American exceptionalist place.
ask the migrants in the custody of border patrol how wonderful we are
If you cant practice what you preach, you can not lead.
Leadership and intervention are not the same thing. We don't have the money to be the world police and enforcer anymore
I think a lot of Americans would say good. Americans have put a lot of blood and money into the world and for what? The status quo? It isn't worth it.
America gets alot. Just it tend to be stuff that the average American don’t benefit from.
It’s like pouring acid directly into your own ears.
Tell me the real reason why you went to Afghanistan and please tell me the truth
It was never a global leader.
Not enough and long overdue.
As a Canadian, I want to see the U.S, China and others work together to address the most important global problems including poverty elimination, health promotion, tackling climate change and so on. This is the global leadership we need. It is pretty disheartening to hear these debaters continuing to beat the anti-China war drums as the kind of "leadership" that they think the world needs. No, thank you!
You think it’s a one sided disagreement? China only wants to work with other countries if it benefits them. And if they’re so great why do all the countries near them protest and fear them? They don’t want to live in a communist surveillance state. China is not a country to “work” with. They are committing genocide on their own people as we speak.
@@aquam3 Most of the protests by countries neighboring China are border disputes centered around tiny pieces of land, and is disproportionately reported on by Western media. But the reality is almost all of them are inextricably tied to China economically both in terms of imports and of exports. I live in Asia and do business here, and I find that most westerners, especially Americans, have an extremely warped view of the reality on the ground.
Imagine you are a developing country and looking at it objectively, virtually all of China’s neighbors have been experiencing a sustained economic boom and huge year over year GDP growths for the last two decades, driven almost entirely by their trade with China. Meanwhile the US has been the dominant superpower for nearly a century, and aside from the one other white/anglo country in Canada, America is surrounded by some of the poorest countries on Earth (and I might say seemingly by design). American dominance at its core when seen from the eyes of non-Western countries comes with a heavy dose neo-colonial mentality and racial/cultural superiority complex. I’m not saying that China is some sort of altruistic paragon of virtue, far from it. But the Chinese foreign policies are generally set up as far more of a win-win. China wins more, but there are far more tangible benefits to their partners when compared to the American way.
At this point I would go as far as to say that all that’s left of American dominance hinges on just two things - a superior military-industrial complex (though the gap is shrinking especially as China and Russia seemingly have developed a tacid understanding) and a superior media industry/propaganda machine. The economic gap will likely close within the next decade, and the technological gap possibly even sooner. Yeah you are right no one wants to live under Chinese rule, but I don’t think that is what they are selling, nor is it how the non-Western countries see them.
@@M0ebius " driven almost entirely by their trade with China. Meanwhile the US has been the dominant superpower for nearly a century..."
Like debt trapped their neighbors? Usurping other nations' territory, claiming their own and threatening sanction if disobeyed?
It's true that China's growth spilled over the neighbor's, but this won't prove that it is because China's foreign policy and commercial system served its purpose. It's because the system laid by the US benefits China who now violates and destroys before other nations benefit it.
Besides, The US led the global order has brought more prosperity to the world.
The global GDP from 1989 to 2016 is more than tripled. You may wanna argue that China took the part of the growth. But that is based on the US engagement policy to China and, again, rule based international order. It is not because of China's policy solo superiority whatsoever.
"But the Chinese foreign policies are generally set up as far more of a win-win. China wins more, but there are far more tangible benefits to their partners when compared to the American way."
You omit their intellectual theft and coercive trading habits, which violating WTO rules, and has harmed the partner's economy.
Also, China manipulates its currency rate and unfairly treat foreign capitals, and shows reluctance even to form economic cooperations like GATT and WTO, both system of which benefits China for the economic growth in early 2000s.
Therefore it's unbelievable that "American way" does not benefits the world; its effectiveness has been certainly exemplified by the China's **miracle**.
"The economic gap will likely close within the next decade, and the technological gap possibly even sooner."
In a book written in 2011, it was 2020 when China's GDP surpasses the US.
In 2019, I was 2028, and the recent report says it will be in mid 2030.
Even the "dream" come true, 2020/pre-covid analysis say the US GDP surpasses again in 2050 because of the China's population onuses.
China is massive but also has structural problems like an untreatable inequality like Central American nations.
Under the Xi's "common prosperity" policy, several of tech sectors is shut down.
Now that China cannot grow like it is 2010s, this structural problem and political oppression would trigger economic slow down more severely more likely than it is expected.
"but I don’t think that is what they are selling, nor is it how the non-Western countries see them."
I'm non westerner and acknowledge that most of neighboring nations see China as threats.
Nations like Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, India, and some of ASEAN nations, are not in favor of China as a regional leader (let alone global one), by opinions and statistics (even Russia is ambiguous on this.)
That's why there is the Quad, CPTPP, AUKUS.
The US isn't a quintessential leader, not at all. But that does not mean that the US's leadership has been wrong, not demonstrated likewise.
You (probably mainland Chinese?) just underestimate the role of the US and are way uncritical to CCP's propaganda.
@@jnfunvufb Debt trap diplomacy is an example of a piece of propaganda that is repeated again and again by Western media despite the fact that even it has been debunked again and again by independent investigators. And what is the Western alternative to taking Chinese loans and hiring Chinese builders? A ruthless system of resource exploitation that began during colonialism and persists into this day, and “foreign aids” that basically amounts to cash bribes for third world country strongmen. The reason that the Chinese push infrastructure deals over cash loans is specifically to avoid corruption while digesting its excess technical labor. It’s what I mean when I say these policies are structured as win-win scenarios.
I’m not sure what you mean by usurping other country’s territory. There are alot of border disputes amongst Asian countries, mostly as a result of unresolved issues leftover from World War II when the American-led west basically arbitrarily assigned many of these territories to their allies. And most of the disputed land are random atolls/reefs/island in the middle of the ocean that only matters now because of under-water resources and tactical rights.
The US sanctions more than anybody else in the world, probably combined. I don’t understand why it’s more of an issue when China does it.
I agree China prospered because of foreign investments, among them money from the US. I also agree that they got their start copying and stealing intellectual property. That said almost every East Asian economy started off that way (Japan/Taiwan/South Korea), so it’s not uniquely Chinese. What makes China different is just the sheer size and scale.
As far as WTO rules, the US routinely ignores and operate above the WTO. In fact the WTO court system has been essentially shut down for many years now since the US has blocked the nomination of new judges due to disliking WTO rulings. This is something I rarely see talked about in American media, and the fact that the US has unilaterally destroyed the WTO makes the claim that China doesn’t follow its rules rather befuddling.
As far as currency manipulatiom goes, this one is even more ironic since United States is by far the worse currency manipulator in the world. In fact the US has just printed TRILLIONS of dollars and exported inflation all across the globe for the sole benefit of America at a scale hitherto unseen in human history, and makes what it did in 2008 look like child’s play. And the US economic manipulations is also by far the biggest danger to the world trade, having crashed the global economy every decade for many decades now.
I’m getting tired and won’t respond to every single point. And no I’m not a mainland Chinese. I’m actually a Taiwanese American that lives in Asia. For me discussions regarding whether the US or China is “superior” really isn’t that interesting. I just find it weird how little Americans in general actually understands about what is happening around the world and how warped alot of its media presentation seems to be.
The US should have no involvement in the world. It needs to go away. The world needs to work with China and embrace the Chinese way of doing things. China is freer and the people are better off. Only china has the answer. We need to beat the anti-US war drums, not simply silence the anti-China war drums.
Absolutely fascinating perspectives. I actually have a little respect for Bill Kristol now.🤔
Amazing
Very interesting. But the problem I have with these kind of debates is that all the horrible things China and Russia are doing now, the US has also done in the past. And is Trump a better man than Putin or Xi?
Sounds like whataboutism and deflection
No Trump falls short of great leaders like Putin and Xi.
@@seraphx26 😂
Excellent master debaters
Is America retreating? - ask Canada... the current administration in the US won't even open the door to talk to its nearest and dearest on basic trade matters. They have so many internal troubles to deal with that they need to retreat, and everyone outside the US can see it plain as day. It seems to me that the Against side's argument here is just that America still has a positive attitude and wants to believe it is a global leader. Meanwhile they pointed out the many ways that America has continued to be unable to meet its challenges. Leadership means acting first on those matters that matter the most. America increasingly is acting behind the rest of the world, trailing on climate change, trailing on regulating social media, trailing on .... you name it, they're trailing.
The question itself shows a misunderstanding of the reality, America isn't willfully retreating from it's foolish policies, it is simply declining as all great powers eventually do, America does not have an option but to retreat.
By 2050 America will be lucky if it is even a cohesive nation at the federal level let alone a world power, the internal problems have built to a powder keg that is ready to blow at any moment.
Yes. Collapsing from within and also acquiescing to the ambitions of self-styled billionaire oligarchs and the WEF to create a nonelected global "government" with technocracy-style control over all peoples.
Where are we now we are in retreat
the against folks live in a fairy land and have lost touch with reality.
If you study history, you know what created an empire will also destroy it. If Americans stick with what has made great, then Americans will lose.
History teaches you some patters but you cannot apply them as the model. Things are not simply the same.
if we can, humans are not this deplorably stupid and incredibly amazing at the same time.
People should be free to do what they want to do. This applies to local policy and foreign policy both.
yes but only when the other country is trying to uncut and circument in all spheres of life like china that is when the problems arises come to india i will give a personal tour.
American influence is certainly on the decline and that is very much a good thing.
Way too close up on John Donovan . Back the camera up !!
Biden continued Trumps policys
Being so called "leader of the free world" is alot of work some other country like China should take over.
China can take over as leader of the authoritarian communist world. They’d be happy too!
Cause free world is collapsing.
Indeed. A winning move wouldve been to invest in african infrastructure decades ago instead they are reluctantly forced to do so and even go as far to sabotage chinas efforts. What have they done instead? Blown it to hell and constant coups causing ever more instability. The mere fact that theyre governed by pfizer lobbyists instead of setting up production capacity for the 3rd worlds vaccinations is evidence of hos unfit they are. One could not ask for worse leadership globally. Glad someone is rising up to challenge their inept and terrible leadership
China prefers a multi-polar world over a uni-polar one, and prefers multilateralism over unilateralism. China does not appear to be fond of taking over any role that the US represents (a regime that has been in existence for less than 250 years, and yet not at wars with other countries in only 16 years of its entire existence of 200+ years).