Point is that there is no Macaroni trophy for track day events, we all need to goto work the next day, if you want to go race do it at a club level and not a track day. There is a difference which people do not differentiate. Track-days are meant to improve your skill, racing is for lap times.
Executing safe, respectful, passes is a track day skill. The conga lines that form when riders with weak or non-existent passing skills encounter each other create extended, unnecessary, opportunities for contact. I'm pretty sure most track day operators and coaches would prefer quick, decisive, safe, passing to that.
really when you think about it your riding should be no different on a track day then what it would be in a race ,the reason I say this is I'm not going to risk my life on a track day nore would I risk it on a race everyone has a ℅ of Risk and everybody's ℅ of Risk comes down to rider's ability as well as riders character there are guys who go round on close to or on lap record pace on track days and track days are advertised unlimited speed limits so as far as I'm concerned "speed" is written within the constitution so go speed your little hearts out better there then on the streets
That's why there different levels for track day riders. Top level should be like sort of a practice race but I agree going for the "macaroni"(lol) trophy should be reserved for club racing.
Thank you for the upload. I did a track day a few weeks ago, Intermediate group on a R3. Familiar track for me. In the first couple of outings, I just worked on myself, corner speed entries and exits and found that I can carry more and more speed entering which I would also need for exits. Then in the afternoon, I started overtaking. I followed riders ahead of me and studied their entry habits, speed, line, exits. On the following lap, I was able to make clean outside passes (at or right after entry). I did this for every overtake. Not just dive in, like Lean says, patience. For me the rider ahead will dictate my course of action for any given situation. A consistent rider is always best, a rider with inconsistent lines is a challenge, but with patience and a planned course of action, that can be overcome. Later in the day, I did Double outside passes and I was screaming Hell Yeah in my helmet!
to reply to your hell yea moments, I was laughing inside my helmet at my first TD when getting passed cause it reminded me of the Talladega Nights clips: Are those the other cars?! lol
Good video. I was passed ALOT on my first track day, and only passed a couple of riders. One thing I did see was when I was passed (Turn 1 @ roebling Road) I was back on the gas much quicker than the riders than passed me, and in a couple of instances, had to brake more to avoid running into them. Our Novice class is only allowed to pass when the bike is vertical, so a lot of folks were using that braking zone to pass. When I was gaining into someone slower in the corners, I would sit back a bit, and start working on a plan to pass. Pick out my spot a few turns up, and put that in the back of my mind. I would keep sharp focus on my personal riding and vision, and occasionally dart my eyes to their bike to see their trajectory, line ,etc. to note any changes that might affect me. Once I was in the place I wanted to be to make the pass, I would make the attempt. It worked a couple of laps, but some it did not. Just was a great learning experience. We had one session in the rain where I passed a rider that had been passing me all day. I set him up the same way and followed him all the way for a complete lap until I was where I wanted to be and in the right gear to make the pass. It stuck and it was a very rewarding experience to make a safe pass in less than ideal conditions.
I can't believe how quick you got this video out after I asked you about making it not even a week ago! Great video man and thanks for doing that for me and everyone else who was trying to better understand how to cleanly overtake. I definitely remember focusing too hard on the rider rather than the turn which made passing nearly impossible. You rock!!!!
Thank you for all of these amazing videos. I’m not a track rider and I’m pretty new to riding in general and I feel so much more confident after watching your videos.
Been tracking aprox. 14 days total through the year, GSXR-750 and a Triumph Street TripleRS, now in the intermediate group which I think is very dangerous, due to riders that think their Rossi and no riding skills. From my last day I always ck. the riders and if I see a group of close riders most of the time I pull off and then re-enter the track. I try not to pass and try to ride away from everyone. One session going down the straight hitting speed of 107mph before a hard right, Usually break on the last cone and noticed 2 riders to my left trying to pass me. 1 rider had turned in front of me and broke hard hitting my front wheel with his back wheel, my whole bike felt like the front end was going to come off. After I settled the bike I stayed to the side of the track and eventually rode off and ck'd the front end. Everything looked tight and straight, very surprised no damage but I was upset due to someone's poor riding skills that may have gotten me hurt. We had a meeting after that due to runoff's every session. I had experienced seeing someone going over the handle bars and flew 30 feet over the track in a corner. He was lucky and didn't get hurt but his bike was toast. As someone mentioned track days are just track days not a race day. Hopefully I will get at a higher level of skill and will be riding with the A group, most of which are AMA riders and know how to ride. I no longer street ride, do a little canyon riding due to the track closing for the summer, looking forward to next season. We have a riding group called racers edge and most of the time it's limited to 17 riders which the cost is double than the other riding groups. This will be the group I will be riding in once a month and will learn 3 times faster due to no idiots on the track. Hope this will help others in doing track days. I know you have to start somewhere! Remember you don't have any idea what the other riders skill level is and that could be dangerous! Other wise I track and it's a part of my life, should have gotten into it when I was younger. At 67yrs. of age I'm not doing too bad, so thankful having a good friend that taught me safety and good riding skills, once was top 20 pro in the nation, won over 550 races. He is a wealth of info!!! If it wasn't for Earl teaching me all I know I would have gotten hurt bad or killed. A bike is not a toy and takes time to master, some catch on faster than others, don't rush it and some riders will never hit a top skill level! Takes lots of seat time and learning skills. As Earl would say there is no such thing as a fast street rider and any monkey can go fast in a straight. Just go out there and have fun and be safe!!!
Took me a while before I felt comfortable however I now know that seeing a riders line at corner entry (for a corner or 2) allows me to prepare to enter on a different line. I can then focus on 50% of the overtake being completed with space for both of us then I can power out down a straight to get the job done. I always work to give the person in front of me (who I am overtaking) there chosen line before I choose mine then work from there. If I do find I have to bail out or change plan so be it but the key goal is both people are happy and nobody is crashing or getting upset. So far so good 👍
something else i see a lot of people doing is sit too close behind the rider and mimicking their exact moves. if that rider is only slightly slower, that can make it difficult to gain enough of an advantage towards the next corner to put yourself in a position to safely make the pass. it is worth considering dropping back a bit, and make the pass at a point where you can tell the other rider is weaker. if their exit speed is lacking, make sure you hang back so that the exit speed you know you can achieve isn't hampered by their line, and you should get past by the next corner. if it's their entry speed that is too slow, they'll have a worse line, or brake too early, in which case a passing move should be easy.
very good again sir ! I've started doing track days 20 years ago. Just a old guy now in my mid 60s, gives me a old guys perspective as well. I know I'm not going to win anything being faster than another. There is always someone faster. So I go to every track day wanting to improve on one thing or another. I was a control rider for a couple of years with a track day /road racing organization. And when you come up to a group of riders, or a couple groups of riders, I would take my students into the hot pit . I'd give a distance as so I wouldn't catch up too quickly, and if so, maybe they were not bunched up as much. Of course, as we get smoother we all enjoy making a pass ! And as a track day rider it is important to be patient, learn where your faster, and make sure you go home with a smile on your face and not have your bike and body banged up. I still have to work on Monday !
I'll be better this year, than I was last. You + others and pandemic practice... are gonna make a difference when the local circuits open. Thanks my brother. Cheers!
I'm in novice class and close to moving up to intermediate. I've started passing allot because I'm not learning anything following a newbee. I've always worked on less than ideal lines because I knew I'd need to be familiar with them too. I use the classic race method of studying the rider I need to pass and find their weak/slow point and pass on the next opportunity. Mostly that's the breaking zone, newbees have an early and long breaking zone. Watch for them to wander side to side too, that's when they're dangerous.
Great topic! One of my weakest points by far :) I'd like to here more on this one, about overtaking lines and trajectories, as well as recovery-overtakes when someone passes you in the entry of a corner but goes too wide because of the speed he carried in.
Another tip to try to overcome the fear of overtaking is to practice making yourself run different lines around the track. Instead of always practicing running the perfect line make yourself get used to becoming confident no matter where you are on the track that way when you do attempt to overtake and cannot run that perfect line you are much more confident when using an alternate line to achieve the pass.
some of these situations you described in the beginning of the video actually helped me get faster. i would follow a rider that started braking way too early that made me brake harder than i would like to, making me realise i can carry more speed into the corner by braking a lot later and harder, or a rider would overtake on the inside of a corner, making me take the corner later, caussing me to exit the corner faster because i could go on the throttle earlier. All these things, among a few others made me a better rider. sometimes i wait with overtaking until after a corner, especially fit he rider has a less powerful bike than mine. try and see their line on corner exit and then accelerate and overtake on their outside.
Very good video, I've watched all of them and they're full of great information for all riders. This one is something that I definitely struggle with. I have no problems being passed, but when it's my turn to overtake I panic and end up going through corners well below my ability. Not that I'm a fast guy or anything ;) Definitely gonna apply these tips at my next outing, thanks again!
My frustration is with people on litre bikes who are slow in the corners. They hold you up in the corners but then pull away on the straights due to the power gap. You then catch them again in the corners and the cycle starts again...!
I ride a 600 and was on the other side of this at my track day. Someone passed me on an RC390 braking into a turn. I knew I would blow past him on the straight, but When we got out on it, I just tucked in behind him and stuck there so as no to make him get stuck since we had minimal passing zones. This was my first track day so I am still quite slow. Once I get to learning how to track ride better, I'm sure the scenario has the potential to be different, but those little bikes can be very fast.
MrFrzZ yup are are all trying to improve. If he was close enough to pass under braking then it's no big thing really. At least in the UK track days you can pass in the corners, I have done US track days and in novice you are only allowed pass on the straights, no overtaking in the bends which effectively means if you can't out drag a slower rider in the straights or get close enough to out brake them in to a bend you are stuck behind them. I prefer the U.K. way!
MrFrzZ was your trackday at little Talladega in Alabama? Because if so i was that guy on the RC390 lol that was a great time. And ya i had pretty good pace through the turns but everyone ate me up on the straights, that’s why in order to stay ahead of people i had to push 100% the whole time.
Nah, I was at Roebling Road Raceway just outside of Savannah GA. You guys on the little bikes carry so much corner speed, its impressive! My wife has a ninja 400 that she'll be taking to RRR in August, so I hope to get a couple of laps on it then. I thought about jumping into a liter bike, but after talking with a couple of people, I wanna get better on the 600 class and possibly just stay there. Hope to see you at the track sometime!
If you end up in a situation where you're yo-yo-ing behind a bigger bike, just pull through hot pit for a second to get some space, and head right back out.
That is big problem for me on track..... I was fast and when there was traffic in front of me, i was too careful for me and others , and i loose half a lap to overtake, i think after watching this video i will be one idea better. Thanks a lot Dan !
Great video and i love this channel. Ive done 7 track days now and am comfortable in group 2 (intermediate) being one of the quicker riders in the group without getting above my comfort zone. With that the frustration comes being on a lower powered bike (FZ-07) compared to all the supersports and liter bikes when you are clearly quicker through the corners and can make clean passes usually done on corner exit so im not "block passing" anyone but then only to have them take the spot right back down the next significant straight section. I wish slower riders on high hp bikes would be courteous enough to just let me go but with egos thats usually not the case. I know the easy answer is to just get a faster bike but i just love my well setup FZ-07 and the joy of making a pass on bigger bikes stick by getting my pass done early enough in the corner section then gapping them far enough that they can't catch up and pass down the next straight. Im a firm believer in corner speed is where the fun is at on track not simply going fast down the straight. Thanks for the great videos.
Another great video, if people go back and watch 3:56 on wards, you can see very very clearly the chasing rider "lining up" the rider in front, watching his or her line. the trailing rider in almost playing tag with the leading rider, seeing where and what they are doing and lining up for a pass based on what the leading rider is doing. its fun game, be smart and look for the opportunity based on what you see the leading rider do and see where you can do better and POUNCE!
Last track day there were a couple of very fast bikes with very slow riders. I myself are not a experienced rider, but I was a lot faster in the corners. But with my Thruxton 900, I was missing a lot of power to pass them during the corner exit and fast sections. Do you have any advise on what to do when you are stuck behind a slow rider with a fast bike? What I did now was to wait until a section with a lot of corners and overtake him by squeezing my but tight and trying to out-brake him by braking harder than I was comfortable with.
Love watching your videos matie.. I ride an srad 600 in intermediate as I'm generally on one of the slowest bike's nearly all my overtaking is on the brakes when I come up on someone who is of smiler speed but a qwicker bike like you said I sit a bit behind them sometimes for a lap or two and there is always a bit of the curcit I will be quite a bit quicker so line my overtake for that part and hope I pull away enough by the next straight so they can't reovertake me (although it just means I can do it again 😉) it's not a race so no need to rush in like a bull in a China shop..... look forward to seeing more of your uploads.
Vids are quality Dan. You ever consider doing paid tuition for noobs? I'm getting started with track riding this summer on the UK circuits with a few friends.
Hi buddy, I currently had a small private membership group which I'll be talking about soon. Outside of that I do the odd days coaching on track, but it's not something I do a lot of.
hey had an idea about a topic for a video. I had a big off fairly recently, broke right side ribs 3- 7 in multiple places, punctured lung etc. etc. I am wonder if you or someone you know has had a big off and has gone through the struggles of getting "their head back in the game" I personally am struggling with this at the moment. I am frankly scared.
Sorry to hear about your off, Nick. I hope you're getting back to full health quick. As to your problem, in truth the best advice is to simply learn what caused the crash, learning the correct techniques and skills to be sure it doesn't happen again, then practise practise practise. I know it's frustrating, but you will get back to your old level with that approach.
While you are talking track days which I never did . I will say when racing and coming up on slower riders/ novice in a endurance race if I felt it would be close based on watching them through other turns as I closed much of it is timing when you do catch them . . Instead of diving under and forcing them into a correction . I would opt to going wide on entrance . Setting up out side of them In The braking and just square it off passing them just past the apex on the inside with enough exit speed to not worry about them . If I could have added anything to your video it would be to watch the rider ahead entrance and exit locations while gaining . And if possible at your level see how close they are to inside and outside edges. Even a slow rider can use the whole track in fact often slower riders are harder to read because of their inconsistency. Reading people's style and preferred lines quickly is the key to safely passing in my mind .. on a track day you could even just play behind or practice Vs being frustrated. Back off just a little and try different lines and compare . This is common in racing prepping for a hard pass . Racing is different but really like comments I read even racing many are there just to compete at a level not the higher risk . I mean I knew I was crashing once or twice a month but I also understood in endurance race I could give a little here or there and just pick it up if needed . Why ruin it for a newbie by scaring them stuffing it under them in their line . One thing beginning riders are also poor at is passing on the inside pulling back over in front and over braking which feels like they are intentionally trying to take out your front . Be kind return to "the line " In a gradual way, maintaining predictable lines . Read a comment from roebling road . Mid 80s I did my share of laps there very fun track . Looked online looks like the course is simular all these years later . Kevin S rode there he crashed in turn 4 so before he rode for team Suzuki he rode a fj600 there and of course many other places but just a note for that person you blasted down the same course as a world champion when he was just getting started .
I struggle with this, especially when it's someone who is slow in every corner but then has the HP to outrace me on the straight into turn 1 and I'm right back where I started. I took some good advice and just come back to the starting grid and have the starter re-send me out. It only takes 20 seconds and the whole game is reset and I'm back to having fun.
I found one thing that made a massive difference in my passing issues: Taking stone cold showers. Hear me out... It never gets really enjoyable, but it trains your brain to do something you dont want to, without hesitation. To just get on with it. I heard this psychological benefit mentioned in a reel while death scrolling insta and it really worked. A lot of people will talk about all sorts of other benefits with cold showers, im not into that - it just started as a way for me to give the middle finger to the gas company when they rocketed the price, now i pass without over analysing or hesitating.
exactly focus on clear track- respect other riders, the driving in hard to stand them up or force them off line compounds risk. On and off the bike, those people stand out like a sore thumb- track day super star
You can always enter the pits to get some distance to the front group. But yeah, overtaking can be hard. Especially when riding with the inexperienced riders that are rather unpredictable and drive in the middle of the track or hold foot on the brake pressing it 20 times during the turn. It's also interesting phenomenon how people are careful with the throttle in the beginning of the session and by the end most open it rather wide. So if they have more powerful bike they just zing away on the straight line and you catch up with them in the corner and you can't overtake them there (due to rules limitations or them being unpredictable). This can create some frustration. In this case one can do some excercises or go to a faster group.
Passing up the inside on corner entry surely has to be a last resort? In my experience it's a bit dodgy. If you're trying to pass the person in front then you're already faster than them, so just sacrifice corner entry and take a late apex and drive past them on the exit. Failing that, just ride down the pit lane and get a clear track.
I was faced with this in this past weekend in Round 2 of the MRA at PMP. I was in 2nd and chasing first down when I made a mistake and dropped back 2 places. Well I knew I had pace to regain position and for the first time I let emotion of losing positions and being over eager to retake it that I became a little impatient. So going into turn 1 which is a deep, fast turn that takes commitment, I got right on one of the guys rear wheel when I saw I was faster in the turn than he was and was already planning my attack for the exit. Since I knew I had a better drive I was overzealous with starting my acceleration not too early for the exit but too early to figure out what he was going to do and because of that I didn’t see that he was hesitant till it was too late because I was already driving out when he actually ended up slowing down so to keep from hitting him I tried to adjust which upset the bike too much and I high-sided. So yea lesson definitely learned luckily the bike survived just fine and I walked away just beat up and bruised a bit.
Thanks Thomas. I got my licences in spring 2009 and was on the track 3 months later. Ridden exclusively on the track since 2010 (though I will be back on the road soon!)
i myself struggle with over taking. i find myself target fixating on the bike/bikes in front and stay behind until its a easy pass. i also find myself dropping back and giving the bike in front plenty of room but then it turns into too much room as the gap may increase if the rider has a good exit.
I think you likely just have to start committing to a few passes. Once you see that they're actually pretty easy (because the speed difference is usually big enough) they'll get easier for you.
For anyone reading this. I find myself not being able to grip the sides of the tank with my legs very well in corners because there is not much of my leg actually making contact. If I slide forward on the seat it’s easier but that seems counterintuitive to what I’ve heard about cornering.
Life at Lean I’m in a buell firebolt and I believe I have figured it out. I changed my foot pegs as they seemed to be to high and it’s made a huge difference.
Life at Lean Thank you very much for all of the amazing content you have put out it has helped me a lot. I am sure the rest of the riders around here can agree.
For me track days are not about lap times it's about improving skills espeically in the novice group. The guys that crash in the novice group are the guys that are chasing lap times, trying to race their minute man or buddy. Unfortunately that means red flagged sessions cutting the 20min down to 10 or less.
I personally prefer to chase so if I'm in a group of say 3 bikes I'll sit behind them abit as long as they aren't to slow then if another bike comes takes all 4 of us then I'll over take the 2 I was with before then chase the new guy mainly because I'd rather a rider in front of me I know I can take any time then a rider behind me pushing me way beyond my limits I'd rather let them go round and try to hold on if I can't then atleast I tried my best
I would think that the most dangerous place to pass would be at corner entry. Unless you are racing I would advice against this. Passing at corner exit or on the straights is much safer. On the track days I attend passing and at corner entry is a no-no, unless explicitly stated (for race practice). This is mainly because all riders pay for their own bikes and do not want some hothead idiot bump them off the track just because he thinks he is faster. The bottom line, unless it is racing, safety should always be more important than lap times.
FredricF My pit mates are all racers and it makes track days really stressful at times. I look like I have social anxiety when I avoid the noise. Track days is becoming a chore. It's a weird situation.
Does not sound fun. But riding, or doing whatever, with people better than you will make you better even if you do not notice it until you see someone like you a few years ago. I recently started training to be an instructor, even though I do not consider myself an expert rider by far, but when I saw the beginners we where supposed to train and how they rode I realized that the years on the track did really teach me a thing or two.
Point is that there is no Macaroni trophy for track day events, we all need to goto work the next day, if you want to go race do it at a club level and not a track day. There is a difference which people do not differentiate.
Track-days are meant to improve your skill, racing is for lap times.
Executing safe, respectful, passes is a track day skill. The conga lines that form when riders with weak or non-existent passing skills encounter each other create extended, unnecessary, opportunities for contact. I'm pretty sure most track day operators and coaches would prefer quick, decisive, safe, passing to that.
really when you think about it your riding should be no different on a track day then what it would be in a race ,the reason I say this is I'm not going to risk my life on a track day nore would I risk it on a race everyone has a ℅ of Risk and everybody's ℅ of Risk comes down to rider's ability as well as riders character there are guys who go round on close to or on lap record pace on track days and track days are advertised unlimited speed limits so as far as I'm concerned
"speed" is written within the constitution so go speed your little hearts out better there then on the streets
That's why there different levels for track day riders. Top level should be like sort of a practice race but I agree going for the "macaroni"(lol) trophy should be reserved for club racing.
Thank you for the upload. I did a track day a few weeks ago, Intermediate group on a R3. Familiar track for me. In the first couple of outings, I just worked on myself, corner speed entries and exits and found that I can carry more and more speed entering which I would also need for exits. Then in the afternoon, I started overtaking. I followed riders ahead of me and studied their entry habits, speed, line, exits. On the following lap, I was able to make clean outside passes (at or right after entry). I did this for every overtake. Not just dive in, like Lean says, patience. For me the rider ahead will dictate my course of action for any given situation. A consistent rider is always best, a rider with inconsistent lines is a challenge, but with patience and a planned course of action, that can be overcome. Later in the day, I did Double outside passes and I was screaming Hell Yeah in my helmet!
Passing can be so rewarding. Some of my best sessions on track are when I've had a few good clean passes in there.
to reply to your hell yea moments, I was laughing inside my helmet at my first TD when getting passed cause it reminded me of the Talladega Nights clips: Are those the other cars?! lol
Good video. I was passed ALOT on my first track day, and only passed a couple of riders. One thing I did see was when I was passed (Turn 1 @ roebling Road) I was back on the gas much quicker than the riders than passed me, and in a couple of instances, had to brake more to avoid running into them. Our Novice class is only allowed to pass when the bike is vertical, so a lot of folks were using that braking zone to pass.
When I was gaining into someone slower in the corners, I would sit back a bit, and start working on a plan to pass. Pick out my spot a few turns up, and put that in the back of my mind. I would keep sharp focus on my personal riding and vision, and occasionally dart my eyes to their bike to see their trajectory, line ,etc. to note any changes that might affect me. Once I was in the place I wanted to be to make the pass, I would make the attempt. It worked a couple of laps, but some it did not. Just was a great learning experience.
We had one session in the rain where I passed a rider that had been passing me all day. I set him up the same way and followed him all the way for a complete lap until I was where I wanted to be and in the right gear to make the pass. It stuck and it was a very rewarding experience to make a safe pass in less than ideal conditions.
I can't believe how quick you got this video out after I asked you about making it not even a week ago!
Great video man and thanks for doing that for me and everyone else who was trying to better understand how to cleanly overtake.
I definitely remember focusing too hard on the rider rather than the turn which made passing nearly impossible.
You rock!!!!
Thank you for all of these amazing videos. I’m not a track rider and I’m pretty new to riding in general and I feel so much more confident after watching your videos.
Been tracking aprox. 14 days total through the year, GSXR-750 and a Triumph Street TripleRS, now in the intermediate group which I think is very dangerous, due to riders that think their Rossi and no riding skills. From my last day I always ck. the riders and if I see a group of close riders most of the time I pull off and then re-enter the track. I try not to pass and try to ride away from everyone. One session going down the straight hitting speed of 107mph before a hard right, Usually break on the last cone and noticed 2 riders to my left trying to pass me. 1 rider had turned in front of me and broke hard hitting my front wheel with his back wheel, my whole bike felt like the front end was going to come off. After I settled the bike I stayed to the side of the track and eventually rode off and ck'd the front end. Everything looked tight and straight, very surprised no damage but I was upset due to someone's poor riding skills that may have gotten me hurt. We had a meeting after that due to runoff's every session. I had experienced seeing someone going over the handle bars and flew 30 feet over the track in a corner. He was lucky and didn't get hurt but his bike was toast. As someone mentioned track days are just track days not a race day. Hopefully I will get at a higher level of skill and will be riding with the A group, most of which are AMA riders and know how to ride. I no longer street ride, do a little canyon riding due to the track closing for the summer, looking forward to next season. We have a riding group called racers edge and most of the time it's limited to 17 riders which the cost is double than the other riding groups. This will be the group I will be riding in once a month and will learn 3 times faster due to no idiots on the track. Hope this will help others in doing track days. I know you have to start somewhere! Remember you don't have any idea what the other riders skill level is and that could be dangerous! Other wise I track and it's a part of my life, should have gotten into it when I was younger. At 67yrs. of age I'm not doing too bad, so thankful having a good friend that taught me safety and good riding skills, once was top 20 pro in the nation, won over 550 races. He is a wealth of info!!! If it wasn't for Earl teaching me all I know I would have gotten hurt bad or killed. A bike is not a toy and takes time to master, some catch on faster than others, don't rush it and some riders will never hit a top skill level! Takes lots of seat time and learning skills. As Earl would say there is no such thing as a fast street rider and any monkey can go fast in a straight. Just go out there and have fun and be safe!!!
Took me a while before I felt comfortable however I now know that seeing a riders line at corner entry (for a corner or 2) allows me to prepare to enter on a different line. I can then focus on 50% of the overtake being completed with space for both of us then I can power out down a straight to get the job done. I always work to give the person in front of me (who I am overtaking) there chosen line before I choose mine then work from there. If I do find I have to bail out or change plan so be it but the key goal is both people are happy and nobody is crashing or getting upset. So far so good 👍
something else i see a lot of people doing is sit too close behind the rider and mimicking their exact moves. if that rider is only slightly slower, that can make it difficult to gain enough of an advantage towards the next corner to put yourself in a position to safely make the pass. it is worth considering dropping back a bit, and make the pass at a point where you can tell the other rider is weaker. if their exit speed is lacking, make sure you hang back so that the exit speed you know you can achieve isn't hampered by their line, and you should get past by the next corner. if it's their entry speed that is too slow, they'll have a worse line, or brake too early, in which case a passing move should be easy.
I didn't read your post before I started mine. Yes, exactly.
Focused attention.....so true, so simple, and so hard to do. Thanks, Dan!!👍
very good again sir ! I've started doing track days 20 years ago. Just a old guy now in my mid 60s, gives me a old guys perspective as well. I know I'm not going to win anything being faster than another. There is always someone faster. So I go to every track day wanting to improve on one thing or another. I was a control rider for a couple of years with a track day /road racing organization. And when you come up to a group of riders, or a couple groups of riders, I would take my students into the hot pit . I'd give a distance as so I wouldn't catch up too quickly, and if so, maybe they were not bunched up as much. Of course, as we get smoother we all enjoy making a pass ! And as a track day rider it is important to be patient, learn where your faster, and make sure you go home with a smile on your face and not have your bike and body banged up. I still have to work on Monday !
I'll be better this year, than I was last.
You + others and pandemic practice...
are gonna make a difference when the
local circuits open. Thanks my brother.
Cheers!
I'm in novice class and close to moving up to intermediate. I've started passing allot because I'm not learning anything following a newbee. I've always worked on less than ideal lines because I knew I'd need to be familiar with them too. I use the classic race method of studying the rider I need to pass and find their weak/slow point and pass on the next opportunity. Mostly that's the breaking zone, newbees have an early and long breaking zone. Watch for them to wander side to side too, that's when they're dangerous.
Great topic! One of my weakest points by far :) I'd like to here more on this one, about overtaking lines and trajectories, as well as recovery-overtakes when someone passes you in the entry of a corner but goes too wide because of the speed he carried in.
Another tip to try to overcome the fear of overtaking is to practice making yourself run different lines around the track. Instead of always practicing running the perfect line make yourself get used to becoming confident no matter where you are on the track that way when you do attempt to overtake and cannot run that perfect line you are much more confident when using an alternate line to achieve the pass.
So true!
some of these situations you described in the beginning of the video actually helped me get faster. i would follow a rider that started braking way too early that made me brake harder than i would like to, making me realise i can carry more speed into the corner by braking a lot later and harder, or a rider would overtake on the inside of a corner, making me take the corner later, caussing me to exit the corner faster because i could go on the throttle earlier. All these things, among a few others made me a better rider. sometimes i wait with overtaking until after a corner, especially fit he rider has a less powerful bike than mine. try and see their line on corner exit and then accelerate and overtake on their outside.
Great, many thanks for theese tips, they are very helpful.
Very good video, I've watched all of them and they're full of great information for all riders.
This one is something that I definitely struggle with. I have no problems being passed, but when it's my turn to overtake I panic and end up going through corners well below my ability. Not that I'm a fast guy or anything ;)
Definitely gonna apply these tips at my next outing, thanks again!
My frustration is with people on litre bikes who are slow in the corners. They hold you up in the corners but then pull away on the straights due to the power gap. You then catch them again in the corners and the cycle starts again...!
I ride a 600 and was on the other side of this at my track day. Someone passed me on an RC390 braking into a turn. I knew I would blow past him on the straight, but When we got out on it, I just tucked in behind him and stuck there so as no to make him get stuck since we had minimal passing zones. This was my first track day so I am still quite slow. Once I get to learning how to track ride better, I'm sure the scenario has the potential to be different, but those little bikes can be very fast.
MrFrzZ yup are are all trying to improve. If he was close enough to pass under braking then it's no big thing really. At least in the UK track days you can pass in the corners, I have done US track days and in novice you are only allowed pass on the straights, no overtaking in the bends which effectively means if you can't out drag a slower rider in the straights or get close enough to out brake them in to a bend you are stuck behind them. I prefer the U.K. way!
MrFrzZ was your trackday at little Talladega in Alabama? Because if so i was that guy on the RC390 lol that was a great time. And ya i had pretty good pace through the turns but everyone ate me up on the straights, that’s why in order to stay ahead of people i had to push 100% the whole time.
Nah, I was at Roebling Road Raceway just outside of Savannah GA. You guys on the little bikes carry so much corner speed, its impressive! My wife has a ninja 400 that she'll be taking to RRR in August, so I hope to get a couple of laps on it then. I thought about jumping into a liter bike, but after talking with a couple of people, I wanna get better on the 600 class and possibly just stay there. Hope to see you at the track sometime!
If you end up in a situation where you're yo-yo-ing behind a bigger bike, just pull through hot pit for a second to get some space, and head right back out.
i had my first track day last weekend and i watched all your videos ! i found them really helpfull !!
Fantastic! 😀
That is big problem for me on track..... I was fast and when there was traffic in front of me, i was too careful for me and others , and i loose half a lap to overtake, i think after watching this video i will be one idea better. Thanks a lot Dan !
Great video and i love this channel. Ive done 7 track days now and am comfortable in group 2 (intermediate) being one of the quicker riders in the group without getting above my comfort zone. With that the frustration comes being on a lower powered bike (FZ-07) compared to all the supersports and liter bikes when you are clearly quicker through the corners and can make clean passes usually done on corner exit so im not "block passing" anyone but then only to have them take the spot right back down the next significant straight section. I wish slower riders on high hp bikes would be courteous enough to just let me go but with egos thats usually not the case. I know the easy answer is to just get a faster bike but i just love my well setup FZ-07 and the joy of making a pass on bigger bikes stick by getting my pass done early enough in the corner section then gapping them far enough that they can't catch up and pass down the next straight. Im a firm believer in corner speed is where the fun is at on track not simply going fast down the straight. Thanks for the great videos.
if this is a problem on a track day slow down for a lap rather than doing a dodgy pass.
Another great video, if people go back and watch 3:56 on wards, you can see very very clearly the chasing rider "lining up" the rider in front, watching his or her line. the trailing rider in almost playing tag with the leading rider, seeing where and what they are doing and lining up for a pass based on what the leading rider is doing. its fun game, be smart and look for the opportunity based on what you see the leading rider do and see where you can do better and POUNCE!
Last track day there were a couple of very fast bikes with very slow riders. I myself are not a experienced rider, but I was a lot faster in the corners. But with my Thruxton 900, I was missing a lot of power to pass them during the corner exit and fast sections. Do you have any advise on what to do when you are stuck behind a slow rider with a fast bike? What I did now was to wait until a section with a lot of corners and overtake him by squeezing my but tight and trying to out-brake him by braking harder than I was comfortable with.
Love watching your videos matie.. I ride an srad 600 in intermediate as I'm generally on one of the slowest bike's nearly all my overtaking is on the brakes when I come up on someone who is of smiler speed but a qwicker bike like you said I sit a bit behind them sometimes for a lap or two and there is always a bit of the curcit I will be quite a bit quicker so line my overtake for that part and hope I pull away enough by the next straight so they can't reovertake me (although it just means I can do it again 😉) it's not a race so no need to rush in like a bull in a China shop..... look forward to seeing more of your uploads.
Very nice video !
Vids are quality Dan. You ever consider doing paid tuition for noobs? I'm getting started with track riding this summer on the UK circuits with a few friends.
Hi buddy, I currently had a small private membership group which I'll be talking about soon. Outside of that I do the odd days coaching on track, but it's not something I do a lot of.
hey had an idea about a topic for a video. I had a big off fairly recently, broke right side ribs 3- 7 in multiple places, punctured lung etc. etc. I am wonder if you or someone you know has had a big off and has gone through the struggles of getting "their head back in the game" I personally am struggling with this at the moment. I am frankly scared.
Sorry to hear about your off, Nick. I hope you're getting back to full health quick. As to your problem, in truth the best advice is to simply learn what caused the crash, learning the correct techniques and skills to be sure it doesn't happen again, then practise practise practise. I know it's frustrating, but you will get back to your old level with that approach.
Good advises! Thank you!
While you are talking track days which I never did . I will say when racing and coming up on slower riders/ novice in a endurance race if I felt it would be close based on watching them through other turns as I closed much of it is timing when you do catch them .
. Instead of diving under and forcing them into a correction . I would opt to going wide on entrance . Setting up out side of them In The braking and just square it off passing them just past the apex on the inside with enough exit speed to not worry about them . If I could have added anything to your video it would be to watch the rider ahead entrance and exit locations while gaining . And if possible at your level see how close they are to inside and outside edges. Even a slow rider can use the whole track in fact often slower riders are harder to read because of their inconsistency. Reading people's style and preferred lines quickly is the key to safely passing in my mind .. on a track day you could even just play behind or practice Vs being frustrated. Back off just a little and try different lines and compare . This is common in racing prepping for a hard pass . Racing is different but really like comments I read even racing many are there just to compete at a level not the higher risk . I mean I knew I was crashing once or twice a month but I also understood in endurance race I could give a little here or there and just pick it up if needed . Why ruin it for a newbie by scaring them stuffing it under them in their line . One thing beginning riders are also poor at is passing on the inside pulling back over in front and over braking which feels like they are intentionally trying to take out your front . Be kind return to "the line " In a gradual way, maintaining predictable lines . Read a comment from roebling road . Mid 80s I did my share of laps there very fun track . Looked online looks like the course is simular all these years later . Kevin S rode there he crashed in turn 4 so before he rode for team Suzuki he rode a fj600 there and of course many other places but just a note for that person you blasted down the same course as a world champion when he was just getting started .
I struggle with this, especially when it's someone who is slow in every corner but then has the HP to outrace me on the straight into turn 1 and I'm right back where I started. I took some good advice and just come back to the starting grid and have the starter re-send me out. It only takes 20 seconds and the whole game is reset and I'm back to having fun.
Dude... you explain this shit PERFECTLY !!! Come to COTA for a lesson day... I can get like 40 riders lined up if you did :)
I found one thing that made a massive difference in my passing issues: Taking stone cold showers.
Hear me out...
It never gets really enjoyable, but it trains your brain to do something you dont want to, without hesitation. To just get on with it.
I heard this psychological benefit mentioned in a reel while death scrolling insta and it really worked.
A lot of people will talk about all sorts of other benefits with cold showers, im not into that - it just started as a way for me to give the middle finger to the gas company when they rocketed the price, now i pass without over analysing or hesitating.
exactly focus on clear track- respect other riders, the driving in hard to stand them up or force them off line compounds risk. On and off the bike, those people stand out like a sore thumb- track day super star
You can always enter the pits to get some distance to the front group. But yeah, overtaking can be hard. Especially when riding with the inexperienced riders that are rather unpredictable and drive in the middle of the track or hold foot on the brake pressing it 20 times during the turn. It's also interesting phenomenon how people are careful with the throttle in the beginning of the session and by the end most open it rather wide. So if they have more powerful bike they just zing away on the straight line and you catch up with them in the corner and you can't overtake them there (due to rules limitations or them being unpredictable). This can create some frustration. In this case one can do some excercises or go to a faster group.
Finally!
Another one 👌👌👌
Passing up the inside on corner entry surely has to be a last resort? In my experience it's a bit dodgy. If you're trying to pass the person in front then you're already faster than them, so just sacrifice corner entry and take a late apex and drive past them on the exit. Failing that, just ride down the pit lane and get a clear track.
I was faced with this in this past weekend in Round 2 of the MRA at PMP. I was in 2nd and chasing first down when I made a mistake and dropped back 2 places. Well I knew I had pace to regain position and for the first time I let emotion of losing positions and being over eager to retake it that I became a little impatient. So going into turn 1 which is a deep, fast turn that takes commitment, I got right on one of the guys rear wheel when I saw I was faster in the turn than he was and was already planning my attack for the exit. Since I knew I had a better drive I was overzealous with starting my acceleration not too early for the exit but too early to figure out what he was going to do and because of that I didn’t see that he was hesitant till it was too late because I was already driving out when he actually ended up slowing down so to keep from hitting him I tried to adjust which upset the bike too much and I high-sided. So yea lesson definitely learned luckily the bike survived just fine and I walked away just beat up and bruised a bit.
Bummer ☹️ Glad you came out of it relatively unscathed though, Brandon.
Very good!
These videos are very helpful ! What is your experience in riding ?
Thanks Thomas. I got my licences in spring 2009 and was on the track 3 months later. Ridden exclusively on the track since 2010 (though I will be back on the road soon!)
i myself struggle with over taking. i find myself target fixating on the bike/bikes in front and stay behind until its a easy pass. i also find myself dropping back and giving the bike in front plenty of room but then it turns into too much room as the gap may increase if the rider has a good exit.
I think you likely just have to start committing to a few passes. Once you see that they're actually pretty easy (because the speed difference is usually big enough) they'll get easier for you.
Make sure the rider you are overtaking has predictable lines - sometimes following for a lap gives you a better idea on their lines .
Hard to overtake on straights when your on a 250 n the guys on big bikes can’t corner to save themselves so it’s dive bombing n on the outside
For anyone reading this. I find myself not being able to grip the sides of the tank with my legs very well in corners because there is not much of my leg actually making contact. If I slide forward on the seat it’s easier but that seems counterintuitive to what I’ve heard about cornering.
What bike are you riding? Why don't you feel you legs make good contact?
Life at Lean I’m in a buell firebolt and I believe I have figured it out. I changed my foot pegs as they seemed to be to high and it’s made a huge difference.
Glad to hear it pal 😊
Life at Lean Thank you very much for all of the amazing content you have put out it has helped me a lot. I am sure the rest of the riders around here can agree.
For me track days are not about lap times it's about improving skills espeically in the novice group. The guys that crash in the novice group are the guys that are chasing lap times, trying to race their minute man or buddy. Unfortunately that means red flagged sessions cutting the 20min down to 10 or less.
I personally prefer to chase so if I'm in a group of say 3 bikes I'll sit behind them abit as long as they aren't to slow then if another bike comes takes all 4 of us then I'll over take the 2 I was with before then chase the new guy mainly because I'd rather a rider in front of me I know I can take any time then a rider behind me pushing me way beyond my limits I'd rather let them go round and try to hold on if I can't then atleast I tried my best
I actually find the faster group alot safer then intermittent because they are a lot more predictable with lines and braking zones ect
Not an uncommon thought, Matt.
Awesome
Passing
I would think that the most dangerous place to pass would be at corner entry. Unless you are racing I would advice against this. Passing at corner exit or on the straights is much safer.
On the track days I attend passing and at corner entry is a no-no, unless explicitly stated (for race practice). This is mainly because all riders pay for their own bikes and do not want some hothead idiot bump them off the track just because he thinks he is faster.
The bottom line, unless it is racing, safety should always be more important than lap times.
FredricF My pit mates are all racers and it makes track days really stressful at times. I look like I have social anxiety when I avoid the noise. Track days is becoming a chore. It's a weird situation.
Does not sound fun. But riding, or doing whatever, with people better than you will make you better even if you do not notice it until you see someone like you a few years ago.
I recently started training to be an instructor, even though I do not consider myself an expert rider by far, but when I saw the beginners we where supposed to train and how they rode I realized that the years on the track did really teach me a thing or two.
hi
You don't need to watch a video on "how to overtake" it's really just common sense
Overtaking is a hard task.... Marc Marquez: hold my Beer 😎
First one here.
#jus fkn send it
That's a damn good way for your girlfriend to end up collecting on your life insurance.
My God!!! Body position of those riders front of you are sooo terrible!
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