Answering Orthodoxy w/Michael Lofton
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- Опубліковано 16 гру 2024
- Keith is joined by @catholiccom contributor and host of @ReasonandTheology Michael Lofton to discuss his latest book called
Answering Orthodoxy: A Catholic Response to Attacks From the East.
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I love you all! One of the things that pains me more than anything is when Catholics are tribal, childish, and uncharitable towards each other. It's sad to me that some of you are more concerned with the need to express that you don't like Lofton than interacting with the content of the video. If you don't like Lofton (or me), you are entitled to your opinion, but it's unnecessary to let the rest of us know that for its own sake. My choice to have Michael share about his book should be isolated from all the drama about everything else. Notice we didn't talk about FS, PF, or anything divisive within our Catholic faith. Everyone says they hate the division and the drama, but we often fail to recognize when we are the ones promulgating it. I do not want this channel to turn into a place where people come to argue about other Catholics. So, please, rise above this. Thank you, my friends.
Ok I'll stop
@KeithNester Hey I've noticed there isn't much in the way of apologetics against the New Age movement , Spiritualist, Esoteric so forth.
Lately they are using as much Bible verses to support their ideas as anyone else.
You ever engaged in that type of apologetics?
I've seen a few people try , but they really were not versed or had experience in that movement.
If you could turn me on to someone that is Id appreciate it . Or possibly cover that in a few videos.
I haven't really, but I would be open to it. I did some video with Charles Fraune about the occult. Thanks for the suggestion. @@lonniestoute8762
@@KeithNester Thanks , I'll look him up. They are really hard to witness to because they do have an air of peace and love about them. They are open to conversation but always end with " that's your reality " 😔
I have this new motto
"Love without the Truth is a Lie,
Truth without Love is Abuse "
Ok man , look forward to seeing more of you . This was my first time on your Channel.
ua-cam.com/video/EpQ3XBIFvck/v-deo.htmlsi=RCqC5aYgTb4urDUH@@lonniestoute8762
Michael Lofton is amazing. He is a gentleman and a scholar, truly…
Thanks for having him. Your interviewing style is great. You let your guest speak.
I was Protestant for 29 years and studied the history of the Church for 2yrs and became Orthodox, yet I find myself being drawn to Catholicism. I find I relate more to Catholicism, than orthodoxy which I love. It’s more of a culture of Europeans and very educated people which is good yet, I’m a former gang member and drug addict and alcoholic and there are none at my church only educated college grads. Don’t misunderstand me I love my Church yet I can’t seem to make connections due to our background. I’m so grateful for the ppl at my church whom are very nice and gracious but we can’t seem to make that connection. Learning so much
Long, hard path with a heavy cross to cross. Admirable you're seeking the face of Christ and discerning what the fullness of His truth is. Know of my prayers.
Speaking in general terms, my experience is that the Franciscan Order, endowed with a humble spirituality, offers a heart-to-heart, down-to-earth connection to people with your street background. Perhaps you might consider going on a lay retreat with them, as well as making St. Francis of Assisi your go to saint for intercessory prayer. Enrollment in the Third Order of Franciscans is available for those lay people for those wish to immerse themselves in this particular way towards God in Christ, one of many available in the Church.
@@annakimborahpaThank you
Love both these dudes.
Why does Lofton refuse to debate Ubi Petrus? Cowardly.
@@b.r.holmes6365he doesnt necessarily have to in order to be correct, no one is entitled to a debate or is forced to debate anyone and quite frankly, refusing a debate saves u alot of headache and annoyance so i dont blame him, doesnt mean hes a coward tho debates are just rlly tiring u have to understand and respect that
"You can't use the abuses in the Church as the standard" I like that
God bless you Keith, one of the one UA-camrs out here still relating to Lofton.
Thank you to both of you for responding about the mean, negative people both in and out of the Catholic faith. I too have experienced both sides of the issue and it very much hurts, but I learned a lot by listening to this video.
Michael Lofton is a great guest to have on Keith, don't listen to the haters! Lol. Thanks for letting us in on the discussion!
Can't wait to watch this one! God bless both of you!
Thanks!
Wow! I found this incredibly fascinating! Thanks for sharing!
Awesome so Great Guys so Truthful 🙏🏻✝️🙏🏻✝️ Othodoxy is Split up and Speak differently to Catholicism 🙏🏻
Currently Orthodox looking to revert back to Roman Catholicism! God bless!! 🇻🇦
Thanks for this episode Keith . 🎉
What an awesome conversation, Keith and Michael. You made it so easy for me to understand a lot of j to things on this orthodox vs catholic. I was very impressed by the fact unity is very hard to unite the church if there is no obedience and they could appoint new heads to replace the ones that come into communion with Rome.
GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME AMEN
2 of my favorites!!!!
Lofton is a good guy trying to defend the integrity of our faith, by following the rules of the Church.
I love the orthodox church of the east. There’s a Byzantine there’s the Maria night there’s many. I personally love them. I am a cradle Catholic, but I love the other churches because they give you a different way to worship, which I prefer frankly. I’m not changing my faith, but I’m appreciating all of it on both sides. I love Jonathan Pageau. I love it all and I’m ready for some new stuff which they give us. The Catholic Church is great but it’s pretty basic in many ways and I’m ready for some more interesting stuff which I’m getting plus I love icons.
Huh? I'm Byzantine Catholic and have no idea what you're saying
We are Catholic under the Pope.
Thanks for the talk, now think of how many rites we have in the universal church.
Good video, but I still want peace between both church’s like want Benedict wanted
I was raised and still protestant. My denomination is very anti-Catholic. I've recently started to investigate both Catholic and Orthodox. Rather i convert to any them, i dont know. But there's the 2016 issue with Orthodox attempt counswl of Crete thats giving me pause
This was really great. The only thing I'd like to add is that the wacky Masses were led up to by Vatican II, so traditionalists aren't particularly claiming that it was ever promised that the liturgy would never change at all, but that there are deeper issues (as presented really well by Dr. Taylor Marshall).
he is a man after God's heart IMO admirable
I'm confused about the Coptic Rite. Why are some in communion with Rome and some Coptics aren't? How does that work?
Good question! So it comes down to Christolology. The Coptic church that isn’t in full communion with Rome is within oriental orthodoxy. They reject all councils since Chalcedon. They believe that Chalcedon taught nestorianism and believe in Miaphysitism christology. As opposed to the two natures christology taught by Chalcedon. Coptics are in full communion with Rome believe in the Catholic position and thus accept Chalcedon as a council. They just retain the Coptic liturgical rite and customs.
It is part of the absurdity of the RC system, which many have painfully accepted and left.
@@orthochristos So charitable of you. Much alike the many on the social media. You guys care so much about being protective and righteous the Pharisees of Jesus time would even blush imo!
@@marcuslow1386 You do understand you are slowly but steadily becoming Lofton's cult followers. The guy has become a meme even by RC and the words used to meme are...can you guess "charitable" and "nuance" It has become a joke
I am from the Philippines🇵🇭
Hello, i am from Germany 🇩🇪 😄
Why did the Roman Catholic Church ditch the Bible of the Early Church and the Orthodox Church ( The Septuagint/Greek Old Testament) and allow Jerome to translate the Latin Vulgate from the corrupted proto- Masoretic text ? Why do you believe Jerome was right to do so, and why as Augustine wrong to resist this change in the Biblical text ?
Here's an evaluation of Pope Honorius I from an independent, i.e., non-Catholic, point of view:
The Anglo-Irish historian J.B. Bury, who was Regius Professor of Modern History at the University of Cambridge and a Professorial Fellow of King's College, Cambridge from 1902 until his death in 1927, stated that "it was for the 'imprudent economy of silence' that he (Honorius) was condemned."
[Bury, John B, A history of the later Roman empire from Arcadius to Irene, Volume 2 (2005), p. 252]
So my last comment is there a divisions and heat everywhere it doesn’t mean it has to be between orthodox and Catholic it’s everywhere. Every religion has people from everywhere being hateful so this is to separating our discussion because I don’t look at it is two different things but that’s just me. He’s very interesting though and so I say thank you very much.
I agree I want peace not division like what pope Benedict wanted
I used to be a devout Orthodox Christian for over 12 years, so I'm going to list a few attacks/arguments against Catholics that I remember from my own experience. Mind you, I'm an agnostic now, so these are just recollections, not personal convictions.
1. Holy water blessed by an Orthodox priest does not go bad, whereas it does if blessed by a Catholic priest.
2. The Pope allows wicked things, hence is is a Satanist / the Antichrist / fallen from grace, etc.
3. The idea of a purgatory is heretical.
4. The understanding of the Holy Trinity that Catholicism holds is heretical.
There's also a bonus one regarding the allegedly miraculous flame that "comes down" during the Easter mass in Jerusalem.
I'm surprised you didn't address any of these.
Matthew 13:24-30
[24]He put another parable before them, 'The kingdom of Heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
[25]While everybody was asleep his enemy came, sowed darnel all among the wheat, and made off.
[26]When the new wheat sprouted and ripened, then the darnel appeared as well.
[27]The owner's labourers went to him and said, "Sir, was it not good seed that you sowed in your field? If so, where does the darnel come from?"
[28]He said to them, "Some enemy has done this." And the labourers said, "Do you want us to go and weed it out?"
[29]But he said, "No, because when you weed out the darnel you might pull up the wheat with it.
[30]Let them both grow till the harvest; and at harvest time I shall say to the reapers: First collect the darnel and tie it in bundles to be burnt, then gather the wheat into my barn." '
I respect a lot of what you’re saying here, but one of my biggest hang ups on Roman Catholicism is that the 10 commandments for the RC church is different than anyone else. When I questioned this and push for an answer, I’m usually told that if I read it’s really more like 13 commandments. I’m also told that it’s not that important to get hung up on. I find it strange though since the hand of God wrote those commandments on the two stone tablets. The only explanation to this I’m left with is the RCC trying to say that God got it wrong, Moses got it wrong…on and on. Why would they be changed? Did God pick out the wrong ones to inscribe? I don’t know what to make of this answer. I don’t mean this as a slam dunk either in any way. I’m genuinely curious.
www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/did-the-catholic-church-change-the-ten-commandments
Also ua-cam.com/users/liveSUMSZaRy3PU
Check these out and see if they help. God bless!
@@KeithNester thank you Keith. God be with you in all of your days and his peace be with you. May Saint Ignatius of Antioch intercede and pray for you to our Lord, Jesus Christ.
As explained in the video link, the CC did not delete the second commandment but included it in the first commandment. Both versions are identical, however, the enumeration is different
By the way, yes the fullness of the faith is probably the Roman Catholic Church. But the worship and love of Mary in the orthodox church is also incredibly amazing. They’re different, but she says I don’t think really cares as long as we’re worshiping the father and His mother.
The church CHURCH Is the body of Christ in the world. I don’t like divisions, NORD separation. Let’s unite and know that we love the Lord Jesus, his mother, father, the Holy Spirit, and that’s good in my opinion. Everybody’s in a different spot in their life and they have the right to worship wherever they want and I think that sometimes in my opinion, the Catholic church that I’ve been out forever gets a little bit proud. We should be proud to love the Lord Jesus and that’s as all.
This can get to legalistic and critical and weird sometimes. But that’s the way it is and I’m just more open. I guess you might say there’s no need to argue just let’s understand each other.
Did you know that there are other rites in the Catholic church aside from the Roman Rite - the Eastern Catholic Rite for example, which are under the leadership of our sucessor of Peter, the pope. Look them up, you might find them interesting
Idk if you misput your sentence but your said “worship” the father AND mother.
If Michael is so sure of his position, why won't he debate Ubi Petrus, or Deacon Joseph Suaidan, or Craig Truglia? Ub Petrus has already issued responses to claims made by Lofton.
Yeah man i try to be nice to orthodox but theyll have none of it. Ive pretty much just seen the aggressive, narcissistic, types. Idk maybe everyone has a nemesis, for us its the freemasons. For them it’s probably us. Youd think theyd be more at war with the Assyrians and oriental orthodox on whos the real orthodox between the 3.
“Objectively speaking where does the data lead me…” This is the crucial difference. St-Aquinas versus St-Gregory of Palamas. The original CREED says in both the Western and Eastern church that it believes in one catholic and apostolic church. To suggest that the one under St-Peter was more ‘catholic’ then the one under St-Andrew (his brother) or the other apostles, is simply a false teaching. We are ONE church no one isn’t going to be saved cause they weren’t under the Pope or a particular patriarch. It will be if you were striving, repenting, and continually moving towards Theosis.
It is not data- but Mystery- that allows us to know God.
If you want apologetics/rationalism/explanations for everything then yes, the Vatican is the right place for you. If you want to know God through prayer, the sacraments and Mystery then the Eastern Church is the best place. But both are catholic. The ‘true’ church is in the next life.
FAKE. Repent for you do not hold the true Catholic Faith. ”We declare, define and proclaim that it is absolutely neccessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff” Unam Sanctam AD 1302. The eastern schismatics do not have salvation.
Btw St Andrew was never the Patriarch of Constantinople, it was an invented myth.
When you called the heretic palamas a ”st” was a major red flag of your apostacy.
Lofton claims the Talmud's horrible references to Jesus the Nazarene are referring to "some other Jesus". Run away from this guy.
Lofton is tribal, childish, uncharitable and a GRIFTER! You Keith? You’re all right with me.
Naaah.
LOL! He spent time as an Orthodox person!! How long was that time, one month or five? he must be an expert on the matter since he has zero bias against the EO Church, right? Come on, man, please, people are not that infantile. If you really want to get the EO perspective get on someone who is actually an EO.
Get a life man. Orthodox does have its problem. It may do you well to grow in love instead of being bitter!
@@marcuslow1386 LOL. Facts are not "bitter"
I asked you a question
19. Of the Church.
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ’s ordinance, in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.
As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith
Article 19 of the 39 Articles of Religion
This is sloppy work. Any Orthodox person can identify what an Ecumenical Council is. I am not Orthodox, but I find this amusing.
No, actually, the Patriarch of Istanbul would simply cease to be Orthodox. Moscow, claiming to be the Third Rome, would likely become the Ecumenical Patriarch.
Nope.
@@eabm1984what a dignified response! "Nope"? That is even MORE sloppy!😂
What’s this got to do with the content? This is an Anglican formulary, is it not?
Yo I love Lofton dawg, I hope he is very charitable to Keith, unlike the way he was toward:
Ybarra (and the rest of the original R & T crew)
Militant Thomist
Babylon Bee
Avoiding Babylon
Hhan
Martin
Marshall
Hall
Holdsworth
And many more.
It's always the people who always call upon others to repent of their sins that can't see their own demons...
Anyway love the new hair style Keith. Godbless
He was uncharitable to Dr. Scott Hahn? I’ve seen the video you are probably referring to, but he was definitely charitable towards him, more so than substantially all people who pointed out his errors (which Hahn had already retracted).
I do agree that he could exercise some more restraint, but frustrations may have gotten the better of him at times, as they do to all of us. It is important to note though that these frustrations often came from misunderstandings, and even misrepresentations, of and about Pope Francis or his magisterial documents. Most of the time, however, he is very restrained and charitable.
Anyway, you mentioned Hall and Marshall? Really? They must be rebuked for their false and hate-filled positions, often assuming lies to be true, only to bash the current pontificate and the magisterium, leading people to leave the Catholic faith. Have you not seen the rampant hatred in their comment sections, with some even categorically stating that they are leaving Catholicism after watching their videos?
By the way, include Fr. Altman to your list.
Yeah, maybe cause they're protestants who attack The Church while.claiming they are the church.
😂 what?
Of the list you stated, I heard the podcast Lofton did in response to Holdsworth, I beg to differ and IMO he was NOT uncharitable to him. He was charitable!
Michael comes across as a kind, reasonable individual when he’s interviewed by others. But on his own channel, his personality is different, more arrogant, not charitable (especially in the comment section) and with a tendency to attack other Catholics commentators. He has no patience for Catholics who are truly troubled by things coming out of the Vatican. I wish no ill will on him. I gave him a chance but he’s just too abrasive
Man, I can't watch a show with Lofton in it. Better to have invited Erick Ybarra for this subject
the king of sophistry.
Nobody's got a gun to your head. And I did do a show with Erick last year. Great stuff.
Read the profession of faith and you then should have no problem listening to Michael Lofton.
Who do you like ?
@@paulmualdeave5063 does the profession include blessing sodomite relationships which he defended?
Using critical thinking, The words from Vatican II (ie: you cannot be saved if you know the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ and you refused to enter or remain) surely include Orthodox Christians since they would argue that they are also the Universal Church established by Jesus Christ - no? I'm genuinely interested because as a Catholic, I have more affinity with the Orthodox Church at this point. I find the Marxist Pope Francis difficult to respect, let alone turn a blind eye to the homosexual predatory behaviours of a lot of Catholic priests and the corruption of the Vatican Bank.
Has Michael Lofton ever entered into a live debate with an Orthodox Christian? These one-sided interviews are not compelling. No real challenge to his propositions and presuppositions. Boring!
Keith, I enjoy your podcasts very much.
I know that we want to listen to other points of view. However, having Michael Lofton on is a no for me.
Love you Keith but Lofton is less than credible. He's Aposticized, left the Faith, converted to/from many other faiths so many times it'll make your head spin. Not an honest shooter. He needs less air time and more prayer time.
He left the church because he thought Pope Francis was a heretic. He was more honest than the schismatics that say Pope Francis is a heretic now.
It’s anathema to say the pope teaches heresy btw. That means we have a lot of dishonest Catholics that are in reality, not Catholic.
He discovered that he was wrong about Pope Francis and returned to the church.
It’s rather ironic that you mention this considering you may be listening to people saying what he said when he left the church.
Didn’t he left Catholicism only just once?
What makes Michael Lofton "less than credible"?
@@thelonelysponge5029 That's once more than anyone needs. Who's to say he won't Apostacize again? He's converted multiple times to different faiths. Twice to Catholicism. Not a solid foundation.
@@pendletondrew He's a former Apostate. Maybe in 30 years he'll have some credibility but then again in Lofton years that means he could Apostacize a dozen more times. He's completely unstable. He needs humility and currently has none to think he can convert, Apostacize, and convert again without taking time to understand why his faith is so shaky.
Little beard!!