The mic really destroyed it for me. UNSUBBED! No wait I'm still here binge watching yer stuff. Bcos it's great stuff. Thank you! Edit: This was an example of PUSH and PULL. It's great for picking up chicks.
I worked for a pharmaceutical company. We also used agile development. Works fine, as long as you understand that you're doing waterfall in small increments :)
I made a career change, used to be a prosecutor, now I'm a full-time Software Developer, hearing all of this stories is really helping me understand a lot of things that happen in the dev work environment, helpful and insightful
9:00 It's wild to me that they hated you rather than their bosses for paying them so much less. You don't decide what you're paid - management does. And yet...
Yet, it happened to me as well. I left the company i worked for, but they re-hired me immediately as contractor at the standard rate they used internally. I had already given them 4 months advance notice and they still hadn't prepared. However, this caused a lot of jealousy with one or two coworkers. I strongly recommend people to not stick around in a similar situation.
From what I've seen and heard, people often seem to come up with this kind of misdirected resentment and anger because they can't manage to confront the actual issues head-on and openly talk them through with the people they'd need to do it with. For all kinds of different reasons. Adults too often engage in childish behavior as organizational psychologists tell us. This is a theme that tends to pop up almost every time I talk with people about the problems they have in their organizations. And I tend to do that a lot as organizational development was the other half of my studies apart from software engineering. So many adults in so many different lines of work with deficiencies in the most basic social skills. It's kind of aggravating to see so many problems all around that never get solved but which people just whine about for years and years when the only thing they'd have to do to become a part of the solution would be to just talk to the right people about it instead of whining behind their backs to others. But I guess that's just human nature or something. smh
I didn’t expect to enjoy this video as much as I did. I admire your analysis and willingness to own up to what you and your team might have done wrong even though it seems that something really underhanded happened to you guys. I’m a new dev and I think I’ve lucked out with my workplace in that there seems to be little or no politics and people on all levels tend to be generous and kind. My CEO is a great developer himself and he respects my team’s technical expertise! And if we say “your idea is unrealistic and here’s why”, he’ll say “what do you propose then?” But still, it’s good to know not to become complacent and assume everything is just so.
Hey thanks for watching and sharing your feedback. That’s great to hear about your current gig! I’ve been on some great projects too so I try to enjoy the good times when they’re here! Sounds like a fantastic CEO, at least as far as expectations with engineering goes. I hope you have a great run with your products! 👍
I was in a similar position. I was working for a fulfillment company where over 90% of the company was working in the warehouse and/or had low wages. Me and my programming buddy were friends with some of them and we'd go out for drinks and stuff but we had to be careful to never bring up salaries because us tech workers were paid so much more it would cause resentment and dissension.
Sounds like a toxic setup from the start. I've been doing startups since before the DotCom era and I've always been concerned about startups that have that much "family and friends" involved. Without knowing all the skill sets of the 3 brothers, it's hard to think that these 3 brothers just happen to have all the professional skills needed to fill all those positions. Odds are that they just needed someone to fill the positions and just happen to have 3 brothers to fill them. One larger startup I worked at was fairly close to what you described. My boss, became my boss just because he worked there longer than me. I had 10 years professional software business on him, and he knew it. He had no management experience at all, zero. I was the very first person he ever managed in his life and it was a nightmare. I quit the company and he lost his job. Management is a profession not a promotion.
@@FahmiEshaq I somewhat disagree. In most cases, I don't think it's possible to have\be a good manager without first having a certain level of technical expertise in the industry. This depends on the industry, level of management, and their "power" in terms of decision making, products to use, team structure, processes, etc.) A manager at a FRANCHISED RESTAURANT is an example where it may be possible to be an effective manager without much technical knowledge. Franchise = Well defined processes = limited decision-making power for the manager Restaurant = Low amount of industry-specific concepts/pre-requisite knowledge required to effectively communicate That said, I think technical expertise can only serve to make someone a better manager than they would be without the technical expertise. This is because they will have a better idea of potential technical (as opposed to cultural) pitfalls and challenges the team may face.
@@ancientelevator9 biggest problem, like with hiring relatives, is that not every personality is suited for manager job. Specifically if it is used as "prize" for 10 years of duty. Also, some training to change mindset as manager is very useful to learn away some habits of previous title. Ofc that experience is very very valuable then in manager position to make right choices and avoid silly things right away. But as you said, if higher management and leadership is done well, there isnt much to be had in middle management, than sort things out like work shifts of people and basic project management. But sounds like there is much bigger problems in company when they hire brothers etc practises.
That sounds like the time I was working for military market - tons of detailed documentation, standards, audits, reporting etc.. that covered everything from requirements to handover.. When I joined a business market I was horrified by the low quality of documents they produced with justification of "oh.. nooo we are not doing that.. we are AGILE" ffs. Same for salary.. we had really bad looks for our salary because during some drinking one man leaked numbers.. Being hated by military stuff is really not a pleasant exp
I did some work for a biotech firm last year. The compliance documentation was insane! I think the overhead of repeating that every 2 weeks for a sprint would have generated so much noise for management they couldn't tell what was really happening. I've been in a similar situation with management not understanding the project. Rather than relying on the documentation as the main communication with them, nowadays as a project manager i would have a weekly chat or phone call with them, or pause the project entirely if they're not engaging after a few weeks. You need buy in from the top or the whole thing can collapse fast.
Рік тому
Another very great experience sharing here. As an engineer having work in similar environment, and now being CTO/Founder of a growing company myself, those challenges you've met are real and your analysis on point.
You're doing a great job with these videos. I've been a software analyst/developer for 23 years now, and while there's lots of ways in our industry to learn and improve technical skills, I find that it's hard to learn the political skills needed to do well. (Especially for younger developers with less experience and introverts!) Keep it up :-)
The chanel rocks! You really good in narration and I relate to your stories!!I would enjoy to see more stories about things that did work and really changed the company, or yourself as developer in a positive way. Sometimes even very very small changes can make a big difference, but is difficult to spot those changes.
The solution to the sign-off issue is sign-off reports to management. This is actually fairly common (these days) in regulated industries. We had a similar issue when going contract work. Someone would sign off of things and then try to come back with "I didn't agree to that." near the end when it was clear they didn't understand or want to spend the time. So... You track tasks, sign-offs, non-sign-offs, etc. and report on this to senior management (and typically everyone else). Simple bar chart with 80% sign-off this week, 85% last week, 70% two weeks ago, etc. This can be explained as wanting everyone to see if there are overall issues with misunderstandings, processes, etc. causing things not to be approved. However, it also has the cover-your-butt reason in that it is hard to say "I didn't agree to this." when the chart shows you did every week for the previous six months. Finally, you can be proactive in your process reviews. "Hey... we have a 95% sign-off. That's really high. Are you sure this process is working." In some regulated industries we've had SOPs which include testing the procedures by deliberately introducing fail cases and ensuring they are caught. Such tests are normally supervised/initiated by your security/regulation specialist. Every so often, they'll have you put "Process audit, report this to XXX when you read this." into the headers/footers or bolded on the first page or two and then see how far down the process it gets.
Interesting. As stated in the video, we had them sign off on their own process, but I never thought of reporting on their compliance with the sign offs. I guess some people really do need their hands held more than others. Not a bad idea in hindsight for this situation!!
@@HealthyDev In regulated industries, reporting on verification metrics is often a tool for validation. If 100% of your code reviews, security reviews, documentation reviews, etc. passed... it is more likely a failure of your verification policies than you have a super-human team. Sign-offs (depending upon the type) are no different. If you get really high pass rates, you should look at the verification procedure and test it. It isn't hard to imagine where verification is going wrong on sign-offs -- people aren't reading the document. Try different people in the roles (have someone else write the document or someone else review it, see if they get 100% also), introduce errors, walk through the process, require additional steps which force reading, etc.
I work in med tech. Our official tool for sign-offs is so unwieldy that in practice we don't use it for approval, but only for documenting the approval. The approval happens by sending the document to all approvers by e-mail, and have them approve it informally. Only when everybody is on-board will we upload the document and start the offical sign-off process. Same thing could have been done here: Informally ask for approval first, then print it out to be signed.
New team arrives with promises that they are going to be working on something different? Yeah, I've been there. I didn't believe them then and didn't believe them when I got transferred to new departments. As far as the R&D guy, sign-offs and regular meeting updates even if it's just to say hello. You did everything right. Can't do much more than that. Now, I've been in enough of those meetings to realize that SOMETIMES there's someone in those meetings that is being ignored and that person trying to tell the other team that they are going down the wrong direction. Team leads and PM's get tunnel vision and they'll never figure out what's wrong. I've taken over a project or 2 and that was exactly what was happening. The clients wanted something totally different than what was being requested or produced. I came in and listened and was able to get the job done. I also came in and they wanted a design change WAY different than what was agreed upon, so I know that feeling as well. As far as the salary thing, the blue collars wouldn't really hate you...I mean you have some, but others really wouldn't even care. Now, your peers on the other team, yeah, they'd hate your guts, as well as management.
In consulting it seems to me like the dynamic of Us VS Them is a constant and dominant factor in the daily experience and the outcomes of projects. Being successful is surprisingly less about technology and more so managing relationships.
I guess everyone who worked in a medical project knows it is not that much about coding, but rather writing tons of documentation, which often looks like explanation of obvious things (explanation of an array) or how exactly a well known encryption algorithm works as if it had invented by the team. 😀
I think if the other developers had been brought into the team for the changes, feedback, and possibly even some of the work, they could have become more accommodating to your team being there and maybe even picked up some of the culture of development you describe. I've seen people lash out at others doing similar work because they think their own work isn't being valued by being left out of the process.
Senior developer here... couple points.. I worked at Transportation government gig.. everyone was like 60 yrs old waiting for thier pensions.. they were there at 7am every day and took prompt 15 min breaks and lunches.. I stroll in bright and shiny around 10ish.. i take long lunches and breaks.. and I made 4 times more than them.. i saw the anger and jealousy they saw in me.. but my personality doesn't allow me to give a rats behind what they think.. I also learned when you tell people like it is and be less politically correct (but not out of bounds) and with confidence.. people tend to STFU.. because at the end of the day you are providing value.. you also need to know how to deal with people and get them on your side.. and identify the wolves..
Thanks for sharing! I think the only mistake was to join a malignant company like that. Some business are just bad ideas lol Engineers need to put their business cap on during interviews and investage the health of the business itself before joining!
Sounds like you were doing a tender list. I've never done those, but a CEO I know would constantly pester me about it. Probably very normal at IBM and such. Really happy I'm not into that.
I have to screan out, what you're saying based on your experience, and others who trying to recup . Most companies have team development plans so the team work to support each other. Other mangers don't like when teams get along they create toxic environments. What I picked on it even before you said one of the managers got fired, I was thinking there must be problematic relationships between managers so, that reflects on the team's relationship.
Totally and not to discredit the fact that this was their decision to take on the new team. They picked the people and wanted to expand the original team whilst deciding how to do it.
interesting. i work in as a electronics tech (learning to program) and i have encountered the same types of problems. the last company i worked for wanted me to build circuit boards by hand. circuit boards can be built pretty cheap by machines rather than building them by hand. but they wouldnt listen to me . because the the last person built them hand fairly quickly. long story short companies sometimes have an unrealistic expectations/ views on how things should be done. And no amount of convincing them would ever work. i was fired but i dont care. the company and product will never get off the ground. i will continue my software journey. i have been working on stock scanners/ trading for some time now. tweeking them little by little till i get something thats good enough to sell as a stock scanning service for other people.
It's a religion. Unfounded cargo cult rituals. Devs who aren't as technical start looking for magical recipes, and those are also the ones with the most time at their hands to promote bad ideas towards the management. They should instead try to be good listeners with the customers and other devs in the field with more experience in that particular domain. If a survey was done on many successful software products built within a reasonable budget, I think correlation with "scrumness" would be around zero. I also think success is strongly correlated with having the right number of people on a project from the beginning, and people with good chemistry. And often it's better to have fewer than more. Managers often mix up the importance of a product with number of people who should be working on it. So important ones tend to be overstaffed from the get to. This adds complexity and therefore risk. More risk than the risk of having too few.
@@hemmper I feel the same way about design patterns. To me, patterns seem less like programming and more like zoology/taxonomy. From the point of view of a lazy Computer Science professor, patterns are a useful source of examination questions - but I remain to be convinced that committing 30+ patterns to memory will make a mediocre student into anything more than a mediocre programmer.
@@mandolinic yes! My experience is that patterns are a bandaid to compensate for a fundamentally weak language. If a language doesn’t have symbols, or macros, or whatever, then you either have to fake it with patterns, or avoid designs that need that feature.
@@HealthyDev im finishing a cs degree and getting into it soon. Just trying to avoid pitfalls and it seems like the importance of communication can't be understated.
Yes, this is great. It's not about technology. It's about business. Sociology, psychology & salary, status. This a good tool for ppl who are about their profession. We really have to have an understanding of egos. There's not a good way to get the egos in the office on your side while maintaining business skills that belong to you. But just having the awareness that this shit happens to 9th degree in every office any professional trade & open the mind up for using certain communication skills & need to reward diplomacy within company. Sometimes its w Admin vs Production, production a cost. If you can forsee where its going to occur early, you may decide differently in your company choice. You may ask questions in an interview. Business owners really need to use the leadership in getting rid of the egos. But I understand also, never give out your secrets in biz either. Trust is something only board members have. Poor Management Direction will lead to a Romper Room instead of acquisition of higher achieving goals met. The competitor will smoke you while you argue he said she said. Focus on the goal while protecting the company & your representation them as well as yourself by the skills you use & strategies you personally gain from. Trademark yourself because business will often sell you out to an Ego partner, manager, client or staff member. CYA!
You seem to hve learned the basic lesson; change things one variable at a time. that's true from degugging code to overturning cultures. For documentation, see Machievelli's "The Prince".
I have always found to put out feelers before you even bring it to the boss to see what the people think even if you are in company for a while you can be surprised at the reaction of users
+Patrick Moore it’s tough to say exactly. I would think explaining the potential upside financially to the product we were working on, and how that would enable raises or rewards for the employees would be a good start.
@@HealthyDev I think it would be extremely difficult to say anything as the results would mostly be that the company can continue to engage in business. This would be no real change in salary as the same manufacturing would have to be done as was always done. The brothers sound like they knew this and just wanted to avoid the whole situation. Software is currently expensive and it takes a lot more brainpower to do it right than it takes to run a machine process that is fixed. Both are honorable jobs (they are what you make of them) but one just pays more and you really can't get around the fact that more people can run machines than can do good software. I actually enjoy running machines more than software but that's not where the money is for the reasons previously mentioned. Nevertheless, a good leader would have tried to address the problem.
. Thanks for the share. Poor leadership. Generated endless amounts of resentment. Silly. At the end of the day any organization is people. People are the most valuable resource.
I think it's a common thing in the literature of the field to take note of how only that part of the organization which in practice embraces going agile can succeed and even that is obviously hindered by the parts that don't, with the usual bottlenecks forming at the borders. It certainly sounds like the management was not on board trying to make it a reality. I conceptualize *agile* as being open and collaborative within the same tribe/team and its opposite as *rigid* which is being defensive and adversarial towards another tribe/team with the goal of making sure that if someone goes down it's not your side of the argument. Isn't this pretty reflective of what you see on the left side vs the right side in the Agile Manifesto? "Customer collaboration vs contract negotiation" and all that with the exception that I can totally see this same adversarial pattern of "having to establish rules between parties because there is no trust" also applying between the parts of the same organization.
Yeah I do see a risk of tribalism (like in this case) if the rewards of the team don’t depend on something for which not need to collaborate to be successful.
Good story. I think the organization should have been trained on Scrum or lunch and learn reading through Scrum Guide. Integrate three developers. Make them part of the team. I think this should have been a partnership between your organization and the organization run by the three brothers on steps to make this happen. Should have raised the red flag on the one brother if he is falling behind on approvals. It sounds like the one brothers approval should have been part of the definition of ready so that the requirement doesn't become part of the Sprint backlog.
I've watched a few stories of yours now and it scares me how much I can relate with each of them... The least I would want to do though would be company-hopping. Could you share some advice on that?
Take this advice with a grain of salt as always, I’d have to understand your situation better. But I try to develop more ways I can contribute to a team so when I’m on one where I have to do grunt work or the management is subpar I can still find some fulfillment and make a difference. That may be things outside coding like fostering better communication, helping less experienced staff, or helping clarify requirements that are weak as simple examples. But ultimately I believe there’s no rule about how long to stay at a company. If it’s really bad and impacting your life and relationships outside work to a point where you can’t enjoy your life, start looking for something better. Explaining honestly to your next employer in interviews why you left is a great opportunity to demonstrate authenticity and see how safe you can expect it will be to communicate openly so you can be successful.
Yeah, a lot of the projects I’ve been on that didn’t go were like that. My engineering skill or teamwork couldn’t have done anything to ultimately save it... 😕
Developing under VMS in the mid 80's using Logical Names and Search Lists we were delivering to Build, Test and Operational environments decades before it became the "thing to do" in the industry. The capability was built into the OS, it worked like a charm and you didn't need all these 3rd party applications that do the same thing. I thought for sure when Microsoft poached Dave Cutler from DEC to build Windows NT we would eventually see Logical Names and Search list capabilities added to Windows but no such luck. However, .NET architecturally is a direct descendant of the of the VMS library functionalities. Again we had that available in the mid 80's. If DEC hadn't been so greedy and Compaq and HP so useless in their marketing and greed as well, VMS might still be around. So far superior to anything else.
I have to say: I don't know what you earned back then, but if it was obscenly much more than the people on the construction floor, it IS wrong. And it should not be a secret what people earn.
Maybe regarding the R&D you could have had an early warning if you would have asked him if they would have something to add or ask regarding the file he just signed. If time after time he didn't have had any curiosity you might have had a sign that something is really off.
The whole point of him getting each document of requirements before signing was to review it for feedback and approve it. I'm not sure asking him explicitly "hey, before you sign remember your job is to find things to add" would have helped - it was more how challenges in his personal life began interfering with his job that was the problem. And that's not to criticize him for having the problems, we've all been there. I just believe he should have either stepped down temporarily or removed himself from the review process and trusted my boss.
@@HealthyDev If it's a small company, he's the Head of R&D, and this is an important DEVELOPMENT, then he should have been more involved & made himself more available. Did you have face to face meetings with him? I don't think a weekly document of requirements is enough to effectively communicate. Who (internal to the company) championed this project? Sounds like it was the President, not the Head of R&D. Were the benefits of the project clear to everyone involved? In regards to Head of R&Ds personal problems, I agree that --"he should have either stepped down temporarily or removed himself from the review process" But In regards to the "and trusted my Boss" -- I think someone internal (whose been at the company for a long time) should be deeply involved. Maybe it was expected that the leader of the pre-existing team should have been this person, but then of course there is the cultural issue. I'm guessing management and this team don't have a good relationship. As you mentioned, relations with the pre-existing team could have been better if the President had a discussion with them before bringing in the consultants.
@@ancientelevator9 yeah your comment about the president having a discussion with them is literally what I said they probably should have done in the video - completely agree. Unfortunately as far as the requirements document being our only communication touch-point, that wasn't the case. He met daily with our immediate development manager. It really was just an unfortunate personal conflict that had negative results on the project. I guess that was the main takeaway for me on this project. There were definitely things I would do differently if I was in this situation again! Thanks for your insights, good confirmation of some of the same stuff I thought maybe would be good for others to think about!
Déjà vu buddy.. and nothing worse than having bosses who have no qualifications and especially in IT and many software developers who also have no qualifications so ethics, respect, and professionalism is nonexistent. The success of the group is dependant on management style, experience, foundation, size of the organization however the one who pays your salary is always right. Friction within the firm is destructive and adds unnecessary pressure.
He was in a position of authority and didn't want to take responsibility for his actions. I felt bad for him at the time for his personal troubles, but it was frustrating how it impacted the team.
you keep thinking of all these things you could have done but at the end of the day its the companies problem not yours mate. you got paid the same regardless
Tough situation, but again politics wins, family business always trump’s you and your ideas. Get the outline of what they want, fact check with them, don’t be doing any hotties in the company, try and hold their feet to the facts and mayb they will like you 😆
I hope this story helps you avoid some of the mistakes I’ve made. Sorry about the mic noise ;)
The mic really destroyed it for me. UNSUBBED! No wait I'm still here binge watching yer stuff. Bcos it's great stuff. Thank you! Edit: This was an example of PUSH and PULL. It's great for picking up chicks.
@@kebman 🤣
I swear to god, corporation drama has the same effect on me like tv romances has on an unemployed housewife.
LOL! I think this is the best comment I’ve ever had on a video. Hahaha love it Andrei.
Holy crap, yes. I was wondering why I was so addicted to these stories! Man, I think it's some of my dramatized PTSD from past jobs. Haha!
please stop with the misogyny
i just realized it's the same for me lol
@@phatrickmoore What on earth is the matter with you??
I worked for a pharmaceutical company. We also used agile development. Works fine, as long as you understand that you're doing waterfall in small increments :)
I made a career change, used to be a prosecutor, now I'm a full-time Software Developer, hearing all of this stories is really helping me understand a lot of things that happen in the dev work environment, helpful and insightful
9:00 It's wild to me that they hated you rather than their bosses for paying them so much less. You don't decide what you're paid - management does. And yet...
Yet, it happened to me as well. I left the company i worked for, but they re-hired me immediately as contractor at the standard rate they used internally. I had already given them 4 months advance notice and they still hadn't prepared. However, this caused a lot of jealousy with one or two coworkers. I strongly recommend people to not stick around in a similar situation.
From what I've seen and heard, people often seem to come up with this kind of misdirected resentment and anger because they can't manage to confront the actual issues head-on and openly talk them through with the people they'd need to do it with. For all kinds of different reasons. Adults too often engage in childish behavior as organizational psychologists tell us.
This is a theme that tends to pop up almost every time I talk with people about the problems they have in their organizations. And I tend to do that a lot as organizational development was the other half of my studies apart from software engineering. So many adults in so many different lines of work with deficiencies in the most basic social skills.
It's kind of aggravating to see so many problems all around that never get solved but which people just whine about for years and years when the only thing they'd have to do to become a part of the solution would be to just talk to the right people about it instead of whining behind their backs to others. But I guess that's just human nature or something. smh
I didn’t expect to enjoy this video as much as I did. I admire your analysis and willingness to own up to what you and your team might have done wrong even though it seems that something really underhanded happened to you guys.
I’m a new dev and I think I’ve lucked out with my workplace in that there seems to be little or no politics and people on all levels tend to be generous and kind. My CEO is a great developer himself and he respects my team’s technical expertise! And if we say “your idea is unrealistic and here’s why”, he’ll say “what do you propose then?” But still, it’s good to know not to become complacent and assume everything is just so.
Hey thanks for watching and sharing your feedback. That’s great to hear about your current gig! I’ve been on some great projects too so I try to enjoy the good times when they’re here! Sounds like a fantastic CEO, at least as far as expectations with engineering goes. I hope you have a great run with your products! 👍
I was in a similar position. I was working for a fulfillment company where over 90% of the company was working in the warehouse and/or had low wages.
Me and my programming buddy were friends with some of them and we'd go out for drinks and stuff but we had to be careful to never bring up salaries because us tech workers were paid so much more it would cause resentment and dissension.
I worked with a small family owned company. Never again. Family can screw up but never be held accountable
Sounds like a toxic setup from the start. I've been doing startups since before the DotCom era and I've always been concerned about startups that have that much "family and friends" involved. Without knowing all the skill sets of the 3 brothers, it's hard to think that these 3 brothers just happen to have all the professional skills needed to fill all those positions. Odds are that they just needed someone to fill the positions and just happen to have 3 brothers to fill them.
One larger startup I worked at was fairly close to what you described. My boss, became my boss just because he worked there longer than me. I had 10 years professional software business on him, and he knew it. He had no management experience at all, zero. I was the very first person he ever managed in his life and it was a nightmare. I quit the company and he lost his job.
Management is a profession not a promotion.
Good take away "Management is a profession not a promotion"
@@FahmiEshaq I somewhat disagree. In most cases, I don't think it's possible to have\be a good manager without first having a certain level of technical expertise in the industry.
This depends on the industry, level of management, and their "power" in terms of decision making, products to use, team structure, processes, etc.)
A manager at a FRANCHISED RESTAURANT is an example where it may be possible to be an effective manager without much technical knowledge.
Franchise = Well defined processes = limited decision-making power for the manager Restaurant = Low amount of industry-specific concepts/pre-requisite knowledge required to effectively communicate
That said, I think technical expertise can only serve to make someone a better manager than they would be without the technical expertise. This is because they will have a better idea of potential technical (as opposed to cultural) pitfalls and challenges the team may face.
@@ancientelevator9 biggest problem, like with hiring relatives, is that not every personality is suited for manager job. Specifically if it is used as "prize" for 10 years of duty. Also, some training to change mindset as manager is very useful to learn away some habits of previous title. Ofc that experience is very very valuable then in manager position to make right choices and avoid silly things right away. But as you said, if higher management and leadership is done well, there isnt much to be had in middle management, than sort things out like work shifts of people and basic project management.
But sounds like there is much bigger problems in company when they hire brothers etc practises.
That sounds like the time I was working for military market - tons of detailed documentation, standards, audits, reporting etc.. that covered everything from requirements to handover.. When I joined a business market I was horrified by the low quality of documents they produced with justification of "oh.. nooo we are not doing that.. we are AGILE" ffs.
Same for salary.. we had really bad looks for our salary because during some drinking one man leaked numbers.. Being hated by military stuff is really not a pleasant exp
Interesting there definitely is some overlap in our experience. Small world!
I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for sharing. I kind have felt a little bit alone in my own experience. These videos are very therapeutic
You are so welcome!
I did some work for a biotech firm last year. The compliance documentation was insane! I think the overhead of repeating that every 2 weeks for a sprint would have generated so much noise for management they couldn't tell what was really happening.
I've been in a similar situation with management not understanding the project. Rather than relying on the documentation as the main communication with them, nowadays as a project manager i would have a weekly chat or phone call with them, or pause the project entirely if they're not engaging after a few weeks. You need buy in from the top or the whole thing can collapse fast.
Another very great experience sharing here. As an engineer having work in similar environment, and now being CTO/Founder of a growing company myself, those challenges you've met are real and your analysis on point.
The first red flag for me was 'run by 3 brothers'.
You're doing a great job with these videos. I've been a software analyst/developer for 23 years now, and while there's lots of ways in our industry to learn and improve technical skills, I find that it's hard to learn the political skills needed to do well. (Especially for younger developers with less experience and introverts!) Keep it up :-)
Thanks Paul appreciate the encouragement. 👍
BPM theory and Requirements theory approves your message.
The chanel rocks! You really good in narration and I relate to your stories!!I would enjoy to see more stories about things that did work and really changed the company, or yourself as developer in a positive way. Sometimes even very very small changes can make a big difference, but is difficult to spot those changes.
Thank you! Will do!
The solution to the sign-off issue is sign-off reports to management. This is actually fairly common (these days) in regulated industries. We had a similar issue when going contract work. Someone would sign off of things and then try to come back with "I didn't agree to that." near the end when it was clear they didn't understand or want to spend the time. So...
You track tasks, sign-offs, non-sign-offs, etc. and report on this to senior management (and typically everyone else). Simple bar chart with 80% sign-off this week, 85% last week, 70% two weeks ago, etc. This can be explained as wanting everyone to see if there are overall issues with misunderstandings, processes, etc. causing things not to be approved. However, it also has the cover-your-butt reason in that it is hard to say "I didn't agree to this." when the chart shows you did every week for the previous six months. Finally, you can be proactive in your process reviews. "Hey... we have a 95% sign-off. That's really high. Are you sure this process is working."
In some regulated industries we've had SOPs which include testing the procedures by deliberately introducing fail cases and ensuring they are caught. Such tests are normally supervised/initiated by your security/regulation specialist. Every so often, they'll have you put "Process audit, report this to XXX when you read this." into the headers/footers or bolded on the first page or two and then see how far down the process it gets.
Interesting. As stated in the video, we had them sign off on their own process, but I never thought of reporting on their compliance with the sign offs. I guess some people really do need their hands held more than others. Not a bad idea in hindsight for this situation!!
@@HealthyDev In regulated industries, reporting on verification metrics is often a tool for validation. If 100% of your code reviews, security reviews, documentation reviews, etc. passed... it is more likely a failure of your verification policies than you have a super-human team. Sign-offs (depending upon the type) are no different. If you get really high pass rates, you should look at the verification procedure and test it. It isn't hard to imagine where verification is going wrong on sign-offs -- people aren't reading the document. Try different people in the roles (have someone else write the document or someone else review it, see if they get 100% also), introduce errors, walk through the process, require additional steps which force reading, etc.
@@BW022 makes perfect sense!
I work in med tech. Our official tool for sign-offs is so unwieldy that in practice we don't use it for approval, but only for documenting the approval. The approval happens by sending the document to all approvers by e-mail, and have them approve it informally. Only when everybody is on-board will we upload the document and start the offical sign-off process. Same thing could have been done here: Informally ask for approval first, then print it out to be signed.
New team arrives with promises that they are going to be working on something different? Yeah, I've been there. I didn't believe them then and didn't believe them when I got transferred to new departments.
As far as the R&D guy, sign-offs and regular meeting updates even if it's just to say hello. You did everything right. Can't do much more than that.
Now, I've been in enough of those meetings to realize that SOMETIMES there's someone in those meetings that is being ignored and that person trying to tell the other team that they are going down the wrong direction. Team leads and PM's get tunnel vision and they'll never figure out what's wrong. I've taken over a project or 2 and that was exactly what was happening. The clients wanted something totally different than what was being requested or produced. I came in and listened and was able to get the job done. I also came in and they wanted a design change WAY different than what was agreed upon, so I know that feeling as well.
As far as the salary thing, the blue collars wouldn't really hate you...I mean you have some, but others really wouldn't even care. Now, your peers on the other team, yeah, they'd hate your guts, as well as management.
In consulting it seems to me like the dynamic of Us VS Them is a constant and dominant factor in the daily experience and the outcomes of projects. Being successful is surprisingly less about technology and more so managing relationships.
You’r channel is brilliant. Keep up good work! Having similar experiences...
this could be one of that story that the university could use as study case..mostly from project management point of view
I love your stories. Thanks for sharing!
I guess everyone who worked in a medical project knows it is not that much about coding, but rather writing tons of documentation, which often looks like explanation of obvious things (explanation of an array) or how exactly a well known encryption algorithm works as if it had invented by the team. 😀
Those manufacturing people giving you the dirty looks were probably thinking "There goes that guy with the sunglasses and the fancy briefcase." 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ha!!! I was wearing frumpy clothes and tried hard to not be seen back then. Not that it’s changed drastically (being on UA-cam aside).
WOW! Great story!!
I think if the other developers had been brought into the team for the changes, feedback, and possibly even some of the work, they could have become more accommodating to your team being there and maybe even picked up some of the culture of development you describe. I've seen people lash out at others doing similar work because they think their own work isn't being valued by being left out of the process.
Senior developer here... couple points.. I worked at Transportation government gig.. everyone was like 60 yrs old waiting for thier pensions.. they were there at 7am every day and took prompt 15 min breaks and lunches.. I stroll in bright and shiny around 10ish.. i take long lunches and breaks.. and I made 4 times more than them.. i saw the anger and jealousy they saw in me.. but my personality doesn't allow me to give a rats behind what they think.. I also learned when you tell people like it is and be less politically correct (but not out of bounds) and with confidence.. people tend to STFU.. because at the end of the day you are providing value.. you also need to know how to deal with people and get them on your side.. and identify the wolves..
Thanks for sharing! I think the only mistake was to join a malignant company like that. Some business are just bad ideas lol Engineers need to put their business cap on during interviews and investage the health of the business itself before joining!
Sounds like you were doing a tender list. I've never done those, but a CEO I know would constantly pester me about it. Probably very normal at IBM and such. Really happy I'm not into that.
I have to screan out, what you're saying based on your experience, and others who trying to recup .
Most companies have team development plans so the team work to support each other.
Other mangers don't like when teams get along they create toxic environments.
What I picked on it even before you said one of the managers got fired, I was thinking there must be problematic relationships between managers so, that reflects on the team's relationship.
Totally and not to discredit the fact that this was their decision to take on the new team.
They picked the people and wanted to expand the original team whilst deciding how to do it.
interesting. i work in as a electronics tech (learning to program) and i have encountered the same types of problems. the last company i worked for wanted me to build circuit boards by hand. circuit boards can be built pretty cheap by machines rather than building them by hand. but they wouldnt listen to me . because the the last person built them hand fairly quickly. long story short companies sometimes have an unrealistic expectations/ views on how things should be done. And no amount of convincing them would ever work. i was fired but i dont care. the company and product will never get off the ground. i will continue my software journey. i have been working on stock scanners/ trading for some time now. tweeking them little by little till i get something thats good enough to sell as a stock scanning service for other people.
I don't think there is anything positive about agile, except that it was the wake up call for me that "I need to get out of this industry".
It's a religion. Unfounded cargo cult rituals. Devs who aren't as technical start looking for magical recipes, and those are also the ones with the most time at their hands to promote bad ideas towards the management. They should instead try to be good listeners with the customers and other devs in the field with more experience in that particular domain. If a survey was done on many successful software products built within a reasonable budget, I think correlation with "scrumness" would be around zero. I also think success is strongly correlated with having the right number of people on a project from the beginning, and people with good chemistry. And often it's better to have fewer than more. Managers often mix up the importance of a product with number of people who should be working on it. So important ones tend to be overstaffed from the get to. This adds complexity and therefore risk. More risk than the risk of having too few.
@@hemmper I feel the same way about design patterns. To me, patterns seem less like programming and more like zoology/taxonomy. From the point of view of a lazy Computer Science professor, patterns are a useful source of examination questions - but I remain to be convinced that committing 30+ patterns to memory will make a mediocre student into anything more than a mediocre programmer.
@@mandolinic yes! My experience is that patterns are a bandaid to compensate for a fundamentally weak language. If a language doesn’t have symbols, or macros, or whatever, then you either have to fake it with patterns, or avoid designs that need that feature.
this was incredible, watched it start to finish unpaused.
Glad you liked it. Any particular takeaways?
@@HealthyDev im finishing a cs degree and getting into it soon. Just trying to avoid pitfalls and it seems like the importance of communication can't be understated.
Absolutely. Go into it with that attitude you’re going to do well!
Love these stories. So insightful
Yes, this is great. It's not about technology. It's about business. Sociology, psychology & salary, status. This a good tool for ppl who are about their profession. We really have to have an understanding of egos. There's not a good way to get the egos in the office on your side while maintaining business skills that belong to you. But just having the awareness that this shit happens to 9th degree in every office any professional trade & open the mind up for using certain communication skills & need to reward diplomacy within company. Sometimes its w Admin vs Production, production a cost. If you can forsee where its going to occur early, you may decide differently in your company choice. You may ask questions in an interview. Business owners really need to use the leadership in getting rid of the egos. But I understand also, never give out your secrets in biz either. Trust is something only board members have. Poor Management Direction will lead to a Romper Room instead of acquisition of higher achieving goals met. The competitor will smoke you while you argue he said she said. Focus on the goal while protecting the company & your representation them as well as yourself by the skills you use & strategies you personally gain from. Trademark yourself because business will often sell you out to an Ego partner, manager, client or staff member. CYA!
True! As soon as I heard 3 brothers working together running the company In the same place, I knew it was gonna be bad news.
You seem to hve learned the basic lesson; change things one variable at a time. that's true from degugging code to overturning cultures. For documentation, see Machievelli's "The Prince".
I read Machiavelli every year. It's incredibly valuable and fun to read as well.
Can't imagine parking my car and as soon as i get off my car I see every1 staring at me with hate in their eyes xD
🤣
Great story and conclusions.
Great videos, I've been binging them for a while now. Do you plan to resume doing them? Are you all right?
I am! I had to take a break to work on getting some things in my life back in order. Thanks for asking. 👍 I will resume soon, stay tuned 😉
I have always found to put out feelers before you even bring it to the boss to see what the people think even if you are in company for a while you can be surprised at the reaction of users
How you would like to have had your high salary explained to the low-wage employees?
+Patrick Moore it’s tough to say exactly. I would think explaining the potential upside financially to the product we were working on, and how that would enable raises or rewards for the employees would be a good start.
@@HealthyDev I think it would be extremely difficult to say anything as the results would mostly be that the company can continue to engage in business. This would be no real change in salary as the same manufacturing would have to be done as was always done. The brothers sound like they knew this and just wanted to avoid the whole situation. Software is currently expensive and it takes a lot more brainpower to do it right than it takes to run a machine process that is fixed. Both are honorable jobs (they are what you make of them) but one just pays more and you really can't get around the fact that more people can run machines than can do good software. I actually enjoy running machines more than software but that's not where the money is for the reasons previously mentioned. Nevertheless, a good leader would have tried to address the problem.
. Thanks for the share. Poor leadership. Generated endless amounts of resentment. Silly. At the end of the day any organization is people. People are the most valuable resource.
I think it's a common thing in the literature of the field to take note of how only that part of the organization which in practice embraces going agile can succeed and even that is obviously hindered by the parts that don't, with the usual bottlenecks forming at the borders. It certainly sounds like the management was not on board trying to make it a reality.
I conceptualize *agile* as being open and collaborative within the same tribe/team and its opposite as *rigid* which is being defensive and adversarial towards another tribe/team with the goal of making sure that if someone goes down it's not your side of the argument. Isn't this pretty reflective of what you see on the left side vs the right side in the Agile Manifesto? "Customer collaboration vs contract negotiation" and all that with the exception that I can totally see this same adversarial pattern of "having to establish rules between parties because there is no trust" also applying between the parts of the same organization.
Yeah I do see a risk of tribalism (like in this case) if the rewards of the team don’t depend on something for which not need to collaborate to be successful.
The thing I take away from this and a couple other videos I’ve seen is that I don’t ever want to be a developer.
Is IT still worth going into? All the recent layoffs make us wonder.
Hmm what layoffs? I'm in IT and it get tons of recruiters messaging me
Good story. I think the organization should have been trained on Scrum or lunch and learn reading through Scrum Guide. Integrate three developers. Make them part of the team. I think this should have been a partnership between your organization and the organization run by the three brothers on steps to make this happen. Should have raised the red flag on the one brother if he is falling behind on approvals. It sounds like the one brothers approval should have been part of the definition of ready so that the requirement doesn't become part of the Sprint backlog.
Yep hindsight is 20/20. Many things could have been done better. Alas, humans were involved. 😉
I've watched a few stories of yours now and it scares me how much I can relate with each of them... The least I would want to do though would be company-hopping. Could you share some advice on that?
Take this advice with a grain of salt as always, I’d have to understand your situation better. But I try to develop more ways I can contribute to a team so when I’m on one where I have to do grunt work or the management is subpar I can still find some fulfillment and make a difference. That may be things outside coding like fostering better communication, helping less experienced staff, or helping clarify requirements that are weak as simple examples. But ultimately I believe there’s no rule about how long to stay at a company. If it’s really bad and impacting your life and relationships outside work to a point where you can’t enjoy your life, start looking for something better. Explaining honestly to your next employer in interviews why you left is a great opportunity to demonstrate authenticity and see how safe you can expect it will be to communicate openly so you can be successful.
@@HealthyDev Thank you, that is very reassuring! Have a wonderful Sunday :)
From what I understand you couldn't really have done anything to change the outcome except maybe what you mentioned about the old team.
Yeah, a lot of the projects I’ve been on that didn’t go were like that. My engineering skill or teamwork couldn’t have done anything to ultimately save it... 😕
Developing under VMS in the mid 80's using Logical Names and Search Lists we were delivering to Build, Test and Operational environments decades before it became the "thing to do" in the industry. The capability was built into the OS, it worked like a charm and you didn't need all these 3rd party applications that do the same thing. I thought for sure when Microsoft poached Dave Cutler from DEC to build Windows NT we would eventually see Logical Names and Search list capabilities added to Windows but no such luck. However, .NET architecturally is a direct descendant of the of the VMS library functionalities. Again we had that available in the mid 80's. If DEC hadn't been so greedy and Compaq and HP so useless in their marketing and greed as well, VMS might still be around. So far superior to anything else.
How do I get our current Dev Manager to listen to this ...
I have to say: I don't know what you earned back then, but if it was obscenly much more than the people on the construction floor, it IS wrong. And it should not be a secret what people earn.
Maybe regarding the R&D you could have had an early warning if you would have asked him if they would have something to add or ask regarding the file he just signed. If time after time he didn't have had any curiosity you might have had a sign that something is really off.
The whole point of him getting each document of requirements before signing was to review it for feedback and approve it. I'm not sure asking him explicitly "hey, before you sign remember your job is to find things to add" would have helped - it was more how challenges in his personal life began interfering with his job that was the problem. And that's not to criticize him for having the problems, we've all been there. I just believe he should have either stepped down temporarily or removed himself from the review process and trusted my boss.
@@HealthyDev If it's a small company, he's the Head of R&D, and this is an important DEVELOPMENT, then he should have been more involved & made himself more available. Did you have face to face meetings with him? I don't think a weekly document of requirements is enough to effectively communicate.
Who (internal to the company) championed this project? Sounds like it was the President, not the Head of R&D. Were the benefits of the project clear to everyone involved?
In regards to Head of R&Ds personal problems, I agree that --"he should have either stepped down temporarily or removed himself from the review process" But In regards to the "and trusted my Boss" -- I think someone internal (whose been at the company for a long time) should be deeply involved. Maybe it was expected that the leader of the pre-existing team should have been this person, but then of course there is the cultural issue. I'm guessing management and this team don't have a good relationship.
As you mentioned, relations with the pre-existing team could have been better if the President had a discussion with them before bringing in the consultants.
@@ancientelevator9 yeah your comment about the president having a discussion with them is literally what I said they probably should have done in the video - completely agree. Unfortunately as far as the requirements document being our only communication touch-point, that wasn't the case. He met daily with our immediate development manager. It really was just an unfortunate personal conflict that had negative results on the project. I guess that was the main takeaway for me on this project. There were definitely things I would do differently if I was in this situation again! Thanks for your insights, good confirmation of some of the same stuff I thought maybe would be good for others to think about!
Easy. Head of R&D shouldn't have gotten married. Goverment has nothing to do with your relationship.
was very knowledgeable
Glad you got something out of it!
Déjà vu buddy.. and nothing worse than having bosses who have no qualifications and especially in IT and many software developers who also have no qualifications so ethics, respect, and professionalism is nonexistent. The success of the group is dependant on management style, experience, foundation, size of the organization however the one who pays your salary is always right. Friction within the firm is destructive and adds unnecessary pressure.
Isn’t that what a BA is for ?
REVIVE THIS CHANNEL!!!! PLEAAAASE
Thanks, I plan to! It’s taking me a little longer than I’d hoped =/
12:47 - I don't understand how he could blame you while he signed every document. :(
He was in a position of authority and didn't want to take responsibility for his actions. I felt bad for him at the time for his personal troubles, but it was frustrating how it impacted the team.
@@HealthyDev I see 😔
you keep thinking of all these things you could have done but at the end of the day its the companies problem not yours mate. you got paid the same regardless
You deserved those looks, believe.
Believe what?
*People disliking people who are paid more? Basically democratic socialism.* 😆
Tough situation, but again politics wins, family business always trump’s you and your ideas. Get the outline of what they want, fact check with them, don’t be doing any hotties in the company, try and hold their feet to the facts and mayb they will like you 😆