Byf...the wording used in game...is Heirloom. As in Savathun inherited the egg. She then passed it to us. The only event from which she might have been able to inherit the egg, aside from a potential deal with riven, is her secret purpose among the harmony.
That's possible. I mean we don't know much about how the ahamkara work so maybe you have to do something special to hatch one and savathun definitely had a way to keep it in some sort of suspended animation if she didn't want to hatch it yet. I mean we saw her messing around with time dilation by setting up around a black hole to gather tribute faster with slower passing time so we know she would do something like that.
That explains so much, if that ahamkara egg is powering her source of imbaru then it tells us why savathun felt like she was powerful enough to split from her family.
Keep in mind that riven is always referred to as the last KNOWN ahamkara. There very well could be more out there, and we just haven’t come across any yet
They are shapeshifter and the lore says that they can take human form so maybe some are hidden amongs humanity in the last city, no proof for that but the possibility is out there
@@alexandrelessard7168 very true, not that they would go there narratively but it’s possible. I just hate how they are being treated as extinct when there is strong possibility for them to be out there.
If you read the lore about the Nine; after Oryx took Riven, they apparently killed ‘the others’ in a panic and to prevent Oryx from Taking the other [Ahamkara]. Meaning that before Riven had been Taken, there had been an unknown number of surviving Ahamkara that the Nine knew about.
There's one more detail about that theory of Savathun cleansing the egg with the Light, something unrelated to the Ahamkara: Sloane. Recently reintroduced, Sloane is currently half-taken, and she confirmed her Light keeps the corruption at bay. Just with that, the idea of using the Light to cleanse the Taken corruption sounds a lot more possible.
That's plausible and would make sense, Savathun got the taken egg from dreaming city, stowed it away in case she ever needs it, she got resurrected by the Light, now she can use her Light to cleanse the egg and it worked. At least that's how I imagined it went down if the theory is correct
i mean, yeah we've done it before. last wish literally has us cleanse shuro chi and kalli with our light, and then we later cleanse rivens heart at the end.
@Ahnock its turns out that was due to Rivan granted their Apprentice tech-witches were subconscious wishes for Shuro-Chi Sadia and Kali's corruption to be reversed, in return she killed them all. Sloane's ghost might be the solution to the her Taken corruption, as Savathun's been experimenting with Light for a full few weeks before she revealed herself
I also think its worth pointing out that the perk name for the "wish" Arcana card (the thing that shows up on your HUD when activated) is called "Wish and Whim", which looking back was foreshadowing a baby Ahamkara
If wish magic can allow riven to keep her own will after oryx’s demise, give eris functioning eyes from a different species, hold the hive to a stalemate till trickery was used, and create a time loop, I would say the proper wish (which is something Savuthun is smart enough to make) could fix the taken corruption. I also saw a great theory in these comments from @asimovstarling8806 that she got the egg from the harmony. The clue be the use of the word “heirloom” meaning the eggs age could be very old.
Since Savathûn specifically referred to the egg as an "Heirloom", that would almost guarantee that she was _given_ the egg by another caretaker, perhaps even before she met Riven. The choice of wording there is important, because Savvy wouldn't use a term without purpose - she could have referred to the egg as any number of things, but she specifically chose Heirloom when sharing it with us. So it may be likely that Riven was not the first Ahamkara Savathûn had dealings with, directly or otherwise - and she would _definitely_ see the potential power a viable egg could give her. I think she's had the egg for a very, very long time.
Since Riven was intimidated by Savathun on the first wish when they met, I think its safe to assume Savathun knew exactly what she was dealing with on that encounter. She was ready for Riven, even if she didn't know Riven would be there.
I'm glad this was brought up... I firmly believe the corrupted egg is either hatched or made uncorrupted. The possibilities of Sloan being partially taken, to the point that she can "eavesdrop / hear" a sort of corrupted communication is an interesting plot possibility. We've more to see/hear from Sloan and Asha.
Considering the recent story arcs/expansions, have Guardians learning more about light and dark than anyone has before, and we’re gleaning revelations no one has before, maybe after or during Final Shape, we discover how to free others from taken corruption. Think about it, Sloan may wish to be cured after Final Shape if her being taken no longer serves a purpose, and after the events of Beyond Light, and season of Arrivals, there are supposedly dozens of Guardians that were corrupted by Stasis, or taken/corrupted by the Witness’ lies. With our mastery in balancing Light and Dark, we may discover how to free them all of corruption, like how an anti-body purges a virus corrupting an otherwise healthy host. We could discover the power to Free.
So back when the three hive gods separated so very long ago, they had just fought a group of creatures that were using wish dragons. Savathun went and did something secretly during that time as she helped to eliminate the dragons and the other two gods took the gift mast. She could've got an egg back then and hid the egg in the Imbaru Engine all that time ago. It would be looked at as an heirloom if it was hard won and never hatched because we don't know how the eggs work, or how they would work in the Imbaru Engine. Maybe I'm wrong about the dragons, but I'm pretty sure i remember that happened during the gift mast stuff.
That's where mind is drawn the most too. Of course sparked by watching Byf's other dragon history video, Sav having sneakily infiltrated Harmony to dismantle their Wish Dragon power. It's the perfect situation for her to have had access to protective clutches, as well as the metaphorical 'become different' line and her beginning her path to splitting from her siblings, starting to stash away these tricks and weapons.
The term whim might not have been for the name of the species' young... but rather, Ikora speaking of the innocent whim of a newly hatched dragon. I.e. even in its innocence, could cause misunderstanding of wishes, etc.
I’m literally going to be so stoked if we gonna witness a battle of wish dragons this next season, savathuns uncorrupted ahamkara and maras corrupted taken ahamkara, that would be so cool
I really love your videos. I just started D2 this year and there is much stuff I never saw or will never see because it's no longer playable so I love to go through your Videos and watch everything where I didn't know anything about. Many still to watch xD
Two Ahamkara on the final battlefield with The Witness would be both amazing to see and frightening bc the possibilities with the number of Guardians and enemies in the same vicinity. The range of wishes for the dragons to feast on would be massive. Great video, I’m currently binge watching your content to catch up on the lore and story
I'm watching this video at the start of Week 2 of Season of the Wish. And just from the Dungeon and the first week's story, revision to a lot of this information is something I'm excited to hear.
Maybe it fits in the sense of balance between the light and dark, maybe we need two wish dragons one born in light, and one born in darkness. Mara having the power of those two dragons and herself in order to open up a safe passage into the Traveler. Maybe this repeats the type of events that created the awoken, this is our access point, our balance in order to gain access. Oh, what if Cayde is the result of a wish by Ikora! Great video Byf Love it as always!
Called the imbaru engine. And at its core was an uncorrupted egg. Our actions in the engine when we failed made Savathun stronger. So what was the outcome of succeeding each chamber? Just open a door. :-)
i mean Riven somehow managed to make many taken ahamkara eggs which we destroyed even though she can't realistically have a partner because she's the last ahamkara to ever live as we thought. so maybe the reproduction of ahamkara doesn't even need 2-4 dragons.
I love the idea you suggested about two clashing Ahamkara, that creates such a cool setup for a story and it's a great way to incorporate the abilities of both dragons clashing against each other for the seasonal activity. We could see two teams of champions so to speak, The Taken for the Corrupted Ahamkara (if it is even possible) and the Guardians for the Uncorrupted Ahamkara. Another nice tidbit would be if both eggs hatch at the same time Speaking of, your also right about how were not sure if the taken egg is even alive and us destroying the others was just us being careful about containing Riven/her brood. There's a lot of unknowns here were facing and maybe through this unhatched Ahamkara we might find some answers, hopefully at best
I think Byf overlooked one point that needs to be mentioned. In the season of the Deep I belive it was, Xivu revealed why she was furious with us guardians. When we took Oryx off of the Hive census we as guardians had the right to claim his throne as the Taken King and didn't. With that being the case, is it not possible that a Taken Ahamkhara could be obedient to us if we chose to claim that title and mantle? That could in theory create a struggle of dominance over it between the Witness and ourselves.
This may be completely impossible and/or outlandish BUT what if the Ahamkara that hatches from the Taken Egg wants to fight the one that hatches from the egg we have?
These would make a lot of sense, primarily the witness has controll over all Taken and it's defect Sivu so these is a big possibility but I don't believe bungie will invest on that they would have had to hire voice actors for the new Ahankara and that doesn't sound like something bungie would have done with everything that was going on.
it's possible that the egg is in stasis, or made unhatchable by being taken. mara's long term goal may have been to hatch the ahamkara and have it take riven's place. maybe it just becomes a backup once we share our discovery with the awoken
On the subject of eggs, we can look back to a lore card from 2015. One of the best lore cards in all of destiny, outlining hints of lightfall and final shape. Ghost Fragment: Mysteries 2 Ingress via dreams alone Things I saw inside A wild river and a broken dam (or maybe it's just the sea crashing through a narrow gap I can't be sure). Waves slam through the gap and where they hit the stone they throw up pillars of spray that pierce the mist and crash down in thunder. There's a giant in the cataract, trying to wade against the current, and I can tell it wants to reach the lever and pull the lever which will seal off the flow or maybe give it the sword, but the torrent throws it back so it just keeps its head down and tries to push on. I can't see the face but it breathes out white smoke. I feel for it hard. (^ the inside of the traveler with the witness inside) A world painted around the interior like a stranger Earth everted and glued inside itself but I don't believe this one it's too much like a metaphor. (description of the traveler from the inside... smells faintly of vanilla ;) ) A switchboard or a train station, empty, dead (waiting). The tunnels branch off into infinity. I stare down one for a long time and see a pale worm move in hungry coils around itself. I think this one is the most likely although I might have brought the worm. (Ahsa? Another worm perhaps?) An egg but I'm not sure if the broth inside is warm still, or if it's gone to rot, or if the warmth comes from the struggles of the tiny winged zygote or the bleed from the wound or the thoughts of something thinking very hard. (probably metaphor for the traveler but this may also be the egg we have in our possession..?) A star I think. We count on stars as steady friends because they always rise and always shine but a star's a delicate truce: an explosion caught by its own mass so that it can't erupt and can't collapse. Thus I imagine the state of the machine might be. But one force or another has gone awry and now it rests here, snuffed and broken, waiting for the two rival forms of ruin to be set in balance again.
The moment I saw the uncorrupted egg, I wondered what Mara had planned for her Taken one. She’s often two steps ahead, so she’d know something we don’t. I like to think she was planning on using its status as Taken to control it. Somehow bypassing the Witness and instead control the Taken Ahamkara herself. It’d be much easier to control its wish magic than an uncorrupted Ahamkara’s.
(Sorry for length. I'm just thorough with my thoughts is all.) My guess is that when they met, Riven revealed to Savathun how to gain extra power through deception wishes, and the Imbaru Engine is the result of her adapting it to suit her needs impassively. That knowledge and the egg are Riven's means to keep Savathun in play gaining power to fight, and a failsafe in case a/the Taken egg breaks things up. A few more theories: Xür's appearance and personality is based on a person of The Ammonite race, one of the races The Nine influenced and assisted during their war with the Hive (they didn't originate in Sol system.) The Nine are..gatekeepers of a sort, but for their own interests. The Final Shape will end with the Witness unknowingly tricked into or knowingly creating the key to opening the prison doors of The Deep (maybe with the Taken Wish Dragon's wish power), where the powerful beings of the ascendant plane have been trapped. The new baddies will be the Ascendants. Also, the Cayde we see in the TFS teaser is who Elsie Bray is talking to when we encounter her as The Stranger. In her timeline, our Guardian died and Cayde lived. Afterwards, they did something similar to what we'll be doing over the next few seasons/TFS, and Cayde went in alone and lost contact as Sol was being destroyed. That's why Elsie ends up staying more on our timeline.. nothing left to go back to now with Cayde gone. We show up and he's there. Nobody else in the timelines made it through the portal that leads to where all timelines split, the central moment of time that connects all of them. Again. Sorry for the length. Have a good one.
I wonder if there could be a chance that the Ahamkara in the egg, and here me out, is Riven. After all, Ahamkara are paracausal in nature, so what if through some wish magic, and the line about her prison loosening. It loosened, because she knew if she died, she could be reborn, in the possession of Savathun, who was willing to take up the strings. It's totally a crack shot of a theory, but it definitely is one that I have.
Riven didn't want to be at anyone's command, it's why Riven is the only taken with its own will By being reborn and in our control, she surrenders her will
3:20 - 3:40 Idea. Nokris was cast out of Savathûn’s court as suddenly as he had been ripped into her presence. He drifted in the Ascendant Plane, no longer directionless. Behind him, the court faded, and its shimmering illusion fell like curtains upon a stage. The dark core of the singularity wavered; sunken within its gravitational well was a lone Thrall and no other. Its death spread over eons of deterioration, mouth agape to utter words at the Taken Queen’s whim as patsy, and nothing more. Her presence had been but a mirage, soaked and sold by the lie of her mouthpiece puppet to whom Nokris unknowingly spoke. In truth, only a Thrall stood within orbit of the singularity, for the Queen would not be so foolish to reveal herself. Savathûn looked upon her charlatan court from distant transcendent hollows. Her nascent alliance had produced power twin-fold, in that of Nokris’s devotion, as well as his deception through her mouthpiece Thrall positioned within the singularity. She breathed in his desperate agreement and prepared for the struggle to come. - "Until now, the shadow from which you skulked has been your brother's. Without the Taken King to cast your swaddling shade, you stand naked in the sun for all to see, yes? No shadows, no hiding, no tricks. Just the Guardians and their god-slaying weapons." "I have little to fear from the sun," she insists, but there is no twist in her face. No secret delight. - "Tell me, O Witness mine-does the Light that fills this once dreadfully tiresome space blind you from its newfound glory?" Let me share my perspective then, which you must be waiting for with bated breath: my acquisition of the Light itself is delightful proof of an existence higher even than yours-a sort of karmic wit, if you will.
I want Shaxx to have a prominent role in next season's story, we know so much about him yet he rarely ever features in story content but given next season's theme, I think it would be awesome to see him pop up a few times with some of his own insight on the Ahamkara.
It's possible as Lennie James recorded new lines for the Halloween event, of all things. He's hard to get hold of for Destiny which is why Shaxx makes so few appearances, no way they brought him back just for the fucking Festival of the Lost. Though perhaps it was for The Final Shape.
Byf, i thought there WAS a way to undo being taken. Uldren Sov was taken in Forsaken, and was untaken when he combined the power of the light with his own taken essence to restore Riven. the Spire was made expressly for experiments with the light, so it’s not farfetched that the crux of her experiments was the Ahmkara egg being untaken.
at 15:42 you said that it would be too delicate for the hive but in a prior video you did a reading where it describes what the role of each of the hive gods was prior to them breaking up at Savathun's prompting. in that vid the text you read said something along the lines of Oryx leading and Savathun's spies (there was likely a thing abt Xivu being a space Nazi but I can'tremember). I could just be wrong about my memory here but using that exerpt it doesn't sound that insane to assume that the hive could have done just that. I mean Savathun snuck into the Guardian ranks as osiris, and while she didn't "steal" the light she did learn a great deal. Also having a brain wave as I'm writing this but as we see in the campaign Savathun can make clones of herself who I assume can interact with the material world so maybe she did something like that as she was sneaking out? Then again I joined destiny in the Beggining of the Witch Queen and have no where near the amount of experience you have with the game let alone the lore of it.
I recall Mara seemingly bargaining with Savathun and it creating mistrust between us. Perhaps part of the bargain was the exchange of the taken egg in exchange for something? Maybe Mara bargained for “control” of the cleansed and hatched Ahamkara or maybe even just the opportunity to wish away the taken curse cycle from the dreaming city…maybe the thought of an uncorrupted wish dragon being able to cleans the dream city was enough for her to bargain with savathun and it was all a part of her plans to get us to defeat her sister and revive her back into a position of prominence as the lone hive god empowered with the light…
We actually saw this egg earlier, when we first met Mara again in D2 by traveling trough the portals before her return to the system, it was there but most people didn't notice it i guess in part because it wasn't of the same textures as the taken eggs
It could be the wish dragons are "native" to the inside of the travelers biome, which would explain why they follow the traveler, because the traveler or gardner is home...or something of this nature. This could also explain some way to get through the portal. Back home so to speak for the upcoming season of the wish. Not through a wish but rather their paracausal power maybe.
Since the Season of the Witch is about Savathuns experiments with the light its safe to assume that this was the culmination of all that effort. Fixing the Taken Wishdragon egg and preparing the guardian for the final shape through the imbaru engine.
Wei Ning before dying in the Great Disaster killed half a dozen Ahamkara with Eris Morn. I’m so glad someone else brought up that Praedeth wished to fight forever and ended up lost in the Vault of Glass.
Random thought on one of your points in this vid. Ahamkara may be shape-shifting dragons, but several real examples of faculative parthenogenesis spring to mind. Most excitingly in scientific terms; parthenogenesis was confirmed in two archosaur lineages: crocodilians & birds (Suggesting the possibility in non-avian dinosaurs). Edit. Sorry if this reads like ai, I'm just Autistic and bad at conveying stuff..
In the last Ahamkara video you read that Riven basically relished it's deal with Queen Mara Sov because it loved the thought of finding a way to twist the queen's wishes, so i dont think Riven being imprisoned and yet not imprisoned would matter much to the young Ahamkara even if they do inherit the memories of their ancestors. What i keep thinking though is what if all this Ahamkara business is all part of Mara's desire to have a unique power all to herself and she ends up with both eggs (if there are two) thus having a Taken and normal Ahamkara at her side, even without the wishing wall the lore from the previous video stated basically the entirety of the Dreaming City was designed to mitigate the negative effects of Ahamkara granted wishes so she'd have ways of keeping them in line (also as you mentioned this video we Guardians are pretty effective dragon slayers). Since the Witness isnt technically in the universe anymore perhaps Mara could exert her will enough to effectively control the Taken Ahamkara if it hatches from it's egg, like when a radio signal suddenly cuts out and a different station comes in because you've gone too far from the station that was originally being listened to.
My take is that with some tech witch magic and hive magic we will, fuse both eggs to create a hatchling that is more tame, of weaker will if you may. Basically make it less unpredictable thanks to it's partial taken will, far far reach but one can dream.
When we first met Savathun in season of the Lost, Mara told us that she and Savathun "have come to an agreement", Mara's part in that agreement was the topic of the season, but we never got to know Savathun's part of the agreement, perhaps it was something to do with the ahamkara egg, and so when Savathun escaped at the end of the season she took the egg with her.
so a few thigs i've noticed in fantasy lore when it comes to dragons, clutch is often used to refer to siblings for dragons, so this could in theory be one of Riven's siblings, the other piece that could be the clue staring us in the face is the Harmony. They had wish dragons on their planet and we know Savathun's covens were hidden among them for centuries. So it is possible that Savathun and her covens stole a few eggs for study, since her worms domain was trickery and deception before it was removed, what better omelet then a creature who's whole purpose is trickery and deception
Probably not gonna go this way but here is how I would love for this tale of two dragons to play out: our egg hatches and we have to raise, bond with, control and synchronize with our Ahamkara as our final ally to enter the Traveller and face The Witness. Like second or third week, we learn Mara's egg hatched but the Taken dragon could not be contained and fled, potentially seeking The Witness. That gives us a ticking clock to ready our dragon. "End" of season, we launch an assault on the portal, only to meet the now grown taken dragon who smacks us and our dragon away, it's wish magic and Witness power overtaking us without the aid of the dormant Traveller, we are then insentivised with a community challenge to power up even more in the build up to TFS and the true season end is an epic battle where our dragon seemingly beats the Taken dragon, but both fall into the portal, our ally seemingly gone like Rasputin was in Seraph, but giving us our opening to dive in and start The Final Shape. But wait, there's more!! During the TFS campaign, we get to a boss fight with the still alive Taken dragon using Riven and Illusion dragon mechanics. At about half way, we are forced to wipe before our dragon, weathered but alive, charges in to save us and we have the two titans clash in the skybox as a visual spectacle of Light vs Darkness as we make our way to our final showdown. Wishful thinking, most likely. Badass as hell to imagine, definitely
One thing I'd like to say is that Riven wasn't the only taken being with independence. I'm pretty sure the original vex mind Oryx took (Q, blade transformed) when the vex invaded his throne world had some form of of independence. I don't remember how but I remember it simulating pre-taken king Oryx and savathun supposedly using it to learn to take and I remember the conversation Oryx and Savathun had when he gifted it to her. I say all that not to correct a small part of the video but because if we have two independent taken (both taken by Oryx l), taken weapons and armor wielded by guardians, guardians that wield the darkness and the light ect. There's definitely a chance we can start seeing stuff like us curing Sloane, maybe saving some scorn to give the kell of darkness to come to our side, maybe having conversations with some OLD taken beings and potentially seeing some old alien races only seen in lore show up for big dlcs or episodes. You could also make the argument that Oryx Taking himself after we beat him in the campaign means that a powerful enough being can just straight up be taken and still hold at least some of their own will or independence regardless of what whoever took them wanted.
I feel like I remember reading a long time ago that wish dragons have to be wished out of the egg. It's like a long forgotten memory that I can't place directly. I think it has something to do with their First Wish defining their natures or something like that.
I’m thinking two possibilities: 1) it’s an egg that was bargained for around the time of the Great Hunt, hidden in her Throne World as a means to deal with the Witness 2) Savathun knows more Ahamkara exist in forms and in places both unknown and or inaccessible to the usual suspects of Destiny’s universe. They do sit atop the 4th Wall after all.
Thought of something recently about the relationship between the Leviathans, Worm Gods, and Ahamkara. If the Worm Gods are Leviathans corrupted by darkness then could the Ahamkara be Worm Gods "uncorrupted" by the light? It would make some deal of sense given that Ahamkara only pops up when the Traveler blesses or terraforms a planet, and it would make the lore entry where Xivu talks about how she is angry that her gods are serving another species make a lot of sense. If the Ahamkara are Worm Gods "uncorrupted" then they would probably wanna fight against the hive since the hive would probably want them dead. It would also explain their appearance and how they have the same "mandible" things that Worm Gods do while still having what appears to be vestigial filter-feeding teeth (found on the inner portion of Riven's "mandibles"). Obviously, they can change their form but I don't see why Riven wouldn't be in her normal form since there is no reason to shapeshift while she was locked away. This theory has a lot of holes like why aren't the uncorrupted worm gods named in the books of sorrow? Although I think that one is actually pretty obvious, they wouldn't be since they were traitors, and having that in the books of sorrow could've sown dissent within the hive. But yeah, just a fun theory I thought of.
Question, can wish dragons make wishes/deals etc. with each other? Sure they could do the whole pacific rim fight, but that to me seems obvious but what if with their own agendas, they’re trying to fight out of both our and the Witnesses’s control and turn this into some sort of love or friends at birth, or sibling story between the uncoruppted (light) and dark to show how you need both to pass through the portal. Edit: Just thought of this but we havent interacted with crow in a while, so what if 2 eggs translate to the 2 siblings, crow (uldron) and mara, a “child of the light” with crow reacting with an uncorrupted egg and the ever selfish Mara with the taken egg, combined that’s a pretty good yin-yang dynamic
Fun fact: The word “Ahamkara” is a Sanskrit word meaning “A sense of being an individual separate from everything else” and it refers to the human ego. Fun little tidbit I found while surfing the web, though it should be shared
20:30 Parthenogenetic ahamkara? Parthenogenesis is more common in insects, but sharks and lizards can do it without "doing it." 8:34 Crown Splitter forever!
I really want to know how things are un-taken. We cured the techeuns in the Last Wish raid. The techeuns themselves also cured Riven’s heart for ‘the sake of plans to come’.
That is a good thought I mean in game logic we beat the living crap out of the techeuns and came back with bruises on them, but how they came back is very unclear and how the process actually works
What if the egg that was in Savathûn's possession is not of Riven's clutch but of one the ahamkara that lived among the Harmony. Savathûn might have toke the egg during the Hive's assault on the Gift Mast before Oryx and Xivu Arath could wipe them all out and Savathûn has had this egg all that time since.
it seems to me that this pure and untainted egg must have been whisked away by before oryx wishing to take riven, else she must have somehow purged the taint with some form of magic.
I think that since Mara took her Throne World back, that probably means that the Taken Ahamkara egg is under *HER* command, because it was likely corrupted when Mara's Throne World was taken. If she can take her TW back, she can probably command that Taken Ahamkara when it hatches.
Don’t know if it’s been said but it’s also a possibility that the egg Mara Sov had is the same egg that we have now, since it’s a possibility that when savathun left she just took the egg with her.
I think there is a potentially very important distinction to be made about taken. There is the potential that taken are not "husks" but rather the perfected versions of those life forms, and if Ahamkara's perfection involves a lack of subserviance or some kind of independence from something, then that may explain why riven was special.
Riven was special because Wishes are almost always subverted, and Riven manipulated Oryx in conversation such that her Taking was a Wish rather than an act of the Deep.
Just thought of this. What if part of savathuns plan was to wish for cayde’s death as a backup plan to send him into the traveler in case the guardians stopped her from sealing the traveler? Ahamkara appear as the traveler moves and she did know how to get in. we’re now going into a season with an ahamkara just before final shape. Just some food for thought
While I'd love something as big as a fight between two ahamkara, and a mini-war to enter the traveler, I have to go off of Bungie's track record and say that it isn't likely. I believe it will likely end up with one ahamkara hatching and the taken one being forgotten, or it will be the taken ahamkara egg turned back into a normal one. Bungie has done plenty of retcons before, so it wouldn't surprise me.
As I’ve said before! I’d love a giant kaiju moment for the season XD like they can push back final shape another 4-5months if we received a raid like that. As for the eggs, I always thought that the taken egg wasn’t so much a new wish dragon but more a reincarnation for reven. Like “in locking me in this prison you will use this egg to focus your power and from here I shall one day die and be released upon the world to be reborn in that egg” like imagine that is the case. As for the other egg, I’ve wondered if Savathun has had this ever since the war with the wish dragons? 🤔
I can't speak for how Savathun got the Ahamkara egg. What I can definitely say is that Savathun likely did not steal Mara's egg during the excorism. Because I remember that following the finale mission to Season of the Lost, the Ahamkara egg was still in Mara's Chambers. The only way Savathun could've stolen it at that point would've been after she was resurrected but given the timeline as we know it, Savy didn't have her memories, was presumably experimenting with the light, then we killed her in Witchqueen and she's been effectively dead and tucked away in the Hidden's Vault until now.
I like the idea that the egg was stolen, and Savathicc used us to reverse the taken affliction through the Imbaru engine. We "cleansed" the egg through the combined actions of death and life.
I think the hint of whether or not there are 2 eggs is in the use of the word "uncorrupted". If Corrupted Eggs are in reference to Riven's Taken Eggs, then an Uncorrupted Egg would be in reference to an Egg whose Taken Corruption was undone, un-taken. Otherwise Eris would say "non-corrupted" or "unaccounted" egg. Or Bungie just screwed up their wording
My thing with the taken eggs, if Riven did lay them, and if Riven has some control over some forces of the taken. Wouldn't it make more sense that Riven would lay Taken eggs and have control over her offspring? As far as we know, we have no idea when Riven had these eggs if they are in fact hers. So it could be possible she was taken either before or during her eggs were being cultivated, which would result in Taken eggs.
I feel like the Ahamkara weren't a product of The Traveler coming to Sol, I feel like they are most likely attracted to paracausality and probably followed it here, similar to The Hive and The Fallen
I could very easily see Savathun stealing the egg in her escape of Mara's grasp and the Dreaming City. She was able to corrupt and control people, the Hive God of Cunning and Trickery finding a host to sneak up and grab it, and then calling a Hive ship to rescue her isn't that far off.
I don’t think it’s from Riven’s clutch, given a potential act and motive to support it. In the books of sorrow, there’s a line that outlines Savathun’s role in the war against the harmony among the 3 Hive gods. In that, it states she had a secret purpose/mission, or something along those lines. I believe this was her trying to obtain an Ahamkara egg. But why would she need to? Which brings me to intent. Savathun is a master in the art of cunning. She is he most self aware of her power, and thus her limitations. In the Awoken lore, in order for Mara to hold a high degree of power, she asks Uldren to find (what I think I remember the line saying) an asymmetrical source of power. Essentially something that no one else has. If Mara was smart bough to devise this plan, surely Savathun was too. I do not know how long the hive have believed themselves to act on their own vs the time they realised their maker was the witness whom they serve. But if it was always in Savathuns’ game to rebel against the witness, study paracausal power of light and dark. It makes sense to take interest in a source of power so reality bending, yet neither affiliated with light or dark, but as equally ontological. I only became aware of this in your first video on the Ahamkara released a couple days ago. I feel it a sound hypothesis unless there’S some hidden holes to poke in.
You mentioned the name of a baby Ahamkara is called a Whim. Which is interesting considering what the definition of what the word "Whim" means: 'a sudden desire or change of mind, especially one that is unusual or unexplained.'. Perhaps this could infer on the decision making and path a newborn Ahamkara will make?
Could you imagine if it hatches and no matter who is controlling the taken at that time the dragon is controlling the taken or has been controlling the taken this whole time unborn and controlling them Love you man your voice I think asked Aztcross said it your voice is just butter I love it You're great and I'm sorry if I butchered crosses name
Let's not forget that Shaxx is standing beneath an Ahamkara skeleton in the Tower... And Savathûn has used those bones to sneak into the tower and manipulate him in the past (Season of the lost lore i think)
Perhaps the dueling dragons of light and dark could lead us into the story and episodic structure after the final shape. A wish dragon, so far as we know, feeds on the gap between what is and what is not. That's a hollow feeling. Let's call that a "yearning." What if a dragon were raised on the light beside the Traveler, never wanting for friendship, never needing to twist and decieve? Cruelty may be in their nature because we perceive them that way. What if it's first wish granted were to not feed on a yearning? What if a dragon were surrounded by hope and instead fed on the gap between what is and what _can_ be? Let's call that an "aspiration." Guardians are nothing if not human at their core. Some aspire to do good. Others yearn for a past they cannot know. Others want to inspire. Some just want to be paid. I foresee a time when Guardians become directionless after defeating the Witness. Idle minds and hands. Dueling dragons doling out wishes of similarly-aligned Guardians would, TRULY, be an epic proposition to entertain. Remember, monsters are real. They live inside us. And sometimes, they win.
We should keep in mind that "The Great Hunt" didn't extend beyond Sol, and the Ahamkaras' extinction only applies to our system, and we know that the Ahamkara exist beyond our reach, the Harmony had them, Calus had access to an Ahamkara bone so to say they're "extinct" is not really true given the limited reach of Humanity.
While I do like the idea of the egg being uncorrupted, I don’t think we can entirely rule out the idea of the egg being outside of Riven’s brood. The lore from the taken king expansion stated that older civilizations used Amahkara to fight the hive, even getting to the point of power to fight in throne worlds, though not to point of victory. But the hive did meet the Amahkara long before we entered the story. Who is to say that in those battles of old the witch queen didn’t take or bargain for a trophy.
I always interpreted Riven laughing with Oryx as Riven starting to match Oryxs will as she is taken. This is why she doesn't laugh when she does the deal with Savathun because she is freely independent.
Here's some thoughts I had while watching the video: 1. Savathun's egg was laid by Riven before she was Taken. When she regained her individuality, she attempted to lay more eggs, which are all taken corrupted. She meets Savathun, who finds the uncorrupted egg, and wishes for Savathun to give her the egg. The Uncorrupted egg is the 1st egg Riven ever laid. 2. Mara Sov's egg is the last egg laid by Riven, before the Raid occurs. Either she willingly gave it to Mara, or It was found while we were destroying them with Wishender, and Mara decided to keep it. 3. Perhaps female(?) Ahamkara lay a clutch of eggs, which remain dormant until the female goes to another Ahamkara (perhaps a male one) and wishes for their eggs to hatch? The one granting the wish then gives its life force to the eggs to make them hatch. I'm excited to see how things will play out. Ahamkara have been one of the things I never thought we'd actually see in the game, and now we are waiting on their inevitable return. Keep up the good work on the videos.
Assuming that the eggs are not the same, I would think that the taken egg would answer to Riven. I think the eggs were placed around the dreaming city by Riven as her response to the curse cycle. Possibly to respond to the will of her heart and be reborn in a way through it. Regardless, I see this as a situation where the hatchling agrees to help in return for protection and freedom.
If taken corruption can be corrected maybe she’s planning on curing it… if not prolly gonna make it into a exotic weapon
Taken one thousand voices moment
little correction WE will prolly make it into exotic weapon knowing our lovely guardian
Correction Eris will turn it into a weapon
Would that be the third taken exotic weapon? (Thinking ToM and Witherhoard)
@@progenitor_amborella malfeasance is too i think, and so is whisper no?
Byf...the wording used in game...is Heirloom. As in Savathun inherited the egg. She then passed it to us. The only event from which she might have been able to inherit the egg, aside from a potential deal with riven, is her secret purpose among the harmony.
My god yeah that would make so much sense! This comment deserves more attention
That's possible. I mean we don't know much about how the ahamkara work so maybe you have to do something special to hatch one and savathun definitely had a way to keep it in some sort of suspended animation if she didn't want to hatch it yet. I mean we saw her messing around with time dilation by setting up around a black hole to gather tribute faster with slower passing time so we know she would do something like that.
That explains so much, if that ahamkara egg is powering her source of imbaru then it tells us why savathun felt like she was powerful enough to split from her family.
Yer onto something, here.
Wym by "secret purpose in the harmony"? (I'm not familiar among this part of the lore)
Keep in mind that riven is always referred to as the last KNOWN ahamkara. There very well could be more out there, and we just haven’t come across any yet
They are shapeshifter and the lore says that they can take human form so maybe some are hidden amongs humanity in the last city, no proof for that but the possibility is out there
@@alexandrelessard7168 very true, not that they would go there narratively but it’s possible. I just hate how they are being treated as extinct when there is strong possibility for them to be out there.
@@alexandrelessard7168That's good. They're safe from Mara's tyrannic fist.
If you read the lore about the Nine; after Oryx took Riven, they apparently killed ‘the others’ in a panic and to prevent Oryx from Taking the other [Ahamkara].
Meaning that before Riven had been Taken, there had been an unknown number of surviving Ahamkara that the Nine knew about.
@@masteridiot123 so the nine have killed the remaning wish dragons?
There's one more detail about that theory of Savathun cleansing the egg with the Light, something unrelated to the Ahamkara: Sloane. Recently reintroduced, Sloane is currently half-taken, and she confirmed her Light keeps the corruption at bay.
Just with that, the idea of using the Light to cleanse the Taken corruption sounds a lot more possible.
That's plausible and would make sense, Savathun got the taken egg from dreaming city, stowed it away in case she ever needs it, she got resurrected by the Light, now she can use her Light to cleanse the egg and it worked.
At least that's how I imagined it went down if the theory is correct
i mean, yeah we've done it before. last wish literally has us cleanse shuro chi and kalli with our light, and then we later cleanse rivens heart at the end.
@Ahnock its turns out that was due to Rivan granted their Apprentice tech-witches were subconscious wishes for Shuro-Chi Sadia and Kali's corruption to be reversed, in return she killed them all. Sloane's ghost might be the solution to the her Taken corruption, as Savathun's been experimenting with Light for a full few weeks before she revealed herself
I also think its worth pointing out that the perk name for the "wish" Arcana card (the thing that shows up on your HUD when activated) is called "Wish and Whim", which looking back was foreshadowing a baby Ahamkara
We are going to make maras egg into a nice scrambled egg breakfast with the drifter
I feel like the guardian would want “Sunny Side Up”….while Drifter is more of a “Soft Boiled”
Omelette on the field, bring a fork
One dragon omlette with a spot of taken coming right up brother. Dont eat that TRANSMAT FIRING
Egregore salad on the side 👌🏻
Ahamkara hollandaise with a side salad served with vex ranch, transmat firing!
If wish magic can allow riven to keep her own will after oryx’s demise, give eris functioning eyes from a different species, hold the hive to a stalemate till trickery was used, and create a time loop, I would say the proper wish (which is something Savuthun is smart enough to make) could fix the taken corruption.
I also saw a great theory in these comments from @asimovstarling8806 that she got the egg from the harmony. The clue be the use of the word “heirloom” meaning the eggs age could be very old.
Since Savathûn specifically referred to the egg as an "Heirloom", that would almost guarantee that she was _given_ the egg by another caretaker, perhaps even before she met Riven. The choice of wording there is important, because Savvy wouldn't use a term without purpose - she could have referred to the egg as any number of things, but she specifically chose Heirloom when sharing it with us.
So it may be likely that Riven was not the first Ahamkara Savathûn had dealings with, directly or otherwise - and she would _definitely_ see the potential power a viable egg could give her. I think she's had the egg for a very, very long time.
Since Riven was intimidated by Savathun on the first wish when they met, I think its safe to assume Savathun knew exactly what she was dealing with on that encounter. She was ready for Riven, even if she didn't know Riven would be there.
I'm glad this was brought up... I firmly believe the corrupted egg is either hatched or made uncorrupted. The possibilities of Sloan being partially taken, to the point that she can "eavesdrop / hear" a sort of corrupted communication is an interesting plot possibility. We've more to see/hear from Sloan and Asha.
Considering the recent story arcs/expansions, have Guardians learning more about light and dark than anyone has before, and we’re gleaning revelations no one has before, maybe after or during Final Shape, we discover how to free others from taken corruption. Think about it, Sloan may wish to be cured after Final Shape if her being taken no longer serves a purpose, and after the events of Beyond Light, and season of Arrivals, there are supposedly dozens of Guardians that were corrupted by Stasis, or taken/corrupted by the Witness’ lies. With our mastery in balancing Light and Dark, we may discover how to free them all of corruption, like how an anti-body purges a virus corrupting an otherwise healthy host. We could discover the power to Free.
So back when the three hive gods separated so very long ago, they had just fought a group of creatures that were using wish dragons. Savathun went and did something secretly during that time as she helped to eliminate the dragons and the other two gods took the gift mast. She could've got an egg back then and hid the egg in the Imbaru Engine all that time ago. It would be looked at as an heirloom if it was hard won and never hatched because we don't know how the eggs work, or how they would work in the Imbaru Engine. Maybe I'm wrong about the dragons, but I'm pretty sure i remember that happened during the gift mast stuff.
That's where mind is drawn the most too. Of course sparked by watching Byf's other dragon history video, Sav having sneakily infiltrated Harmony to dismantle their Wish Dragon power. It's the perfect situation for her to have had access to protective clutches, as well as the metaphorical 'become different' line and her beginning her path to splitting from her siblings, starting to stash away these tricks and weapons.
I love your content. I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos. I can only imagine. So, thank you. Keep it up man
the taken egg was one of the first things that came to my mind. I would love to see both hatch and chaos ensue afterwards
That clip from Dynasty reminded me how absolutely fantastic Dynasty is. The production value is incredible!
The term whim might not have been for the name of the species' young... but rather, Ikora speaking of the innocent whim of a newly hatched dragon. I.e. even in its innocence, could cause misunderstanding of wishes, etc.
technicality, Eris Morn says that line. but you could be right, a wish magic dragon that is young and inexperienced could be dangerous at any point.
It's also not capitalised, so it's likely not a young ahamkara.
This might be another fallen hatchling (smallen) situation. The name kinda just stuck. The writers would be fools to not use the term in the future
@@alongfortheride1016 Somehow I don't think the communities lack of reading comprehension is going to catch on xD
This is how i originally interpreted it but i think its a cool name for them
I’m literally going to be so stoked if we gonna witness a battle of wish dragons this next season, savathuns uncorrupted ahamkara and maras corrupted taken ahamkara, that would be so cool
Honestly though it’s be so sick. Plus it would blur the line between light and dark even more
22:27 the disappointment in that brief moment of looking up at the shield in the gameplay footage is just 👌👌👌
22:27 Bfy whiffs a shield throw and looks at it sail into the distance was really funny to me.
I really love your videos. I just started D2 this year and there is much stuff I never saw or will never see because it's no longer playable so I love to go through your Videos and watch everything where I didn't know anything about.
Many still to watch xD
Two Ahamkara on the final battlefield with The Witness would be both amazing to see and frightening bc the possibilities with the number of Guardians and enemies in the same vicinity. The range of wishes for the dragons to feast on would be massive. Great video, I’m currently binge watching your content to catch up on the lore and story
This was a big thing I thought of last week. Thankyou for bringing it up.
I'm watching this video at the start of Week 2 of Season of the Wish. And just from the Dungeon and the first week's story, revision to a lot of this information is something I'm excited to hear.
Maybe it fits in the sense of balance between the light and dark, maybe we need two wish dragons one born in light, and one born in darkness. Mara having the power of those two dragons and herself in order to open up a safe passage into the Traveler. Maybe this repeats the type of events that created the awoken, this is our access point, our balance in order to gain access. Oh, what if Cayde is the result of a wish by Ikora! Great video Byf Love it as always!
Called the imbaru engine. And at its core was an uncorrupted egg. Our actions in the engine when we failed made Savathun stronger. So what was the outcome of succeeding each chamber? Just open a door. :-)
i mean Riven somehow managed to make many taken ahamkara eggs which we destroyed even though she can't realistically have a partner because she's the last ahamkara to ever live as we thought. so maybe the reproduction of ahamkara doesn't even need 2-4 dragons.
I love the idea you suggested about two clashing Ahamkara, that creates such a cool setup for a story and it's a great way to incorporate the abilities of both dragons clashing against each other for the seasonal activity. We could see two teams of champions so to speak, The Taken for the Corrupted Ahamkara (if it is even possible) and the Guardians for the Uncorrupted Ahamkara. Another nice tidbit would be if both eggs hatch at the same time
Speaking of, your also right about how were not sure if the taken egg is even alive and us destroying the others was just us being careful about containing Riven/her brood. There's a lot of unknowns here were facing and maybe through this unhatched Ahamkara we might find some answers, hopefully at best
23:53 “doodoo battle” is my new hope for Destiny
I think Byf overlooked one point that needs to be mentioned. In the season of the Deep I belive it was, Xivu revealed why she was furious with us guardians. When we took Oryx off of the Hive census we as guardians had the right to claim his throne as the Taken King and didn't. With that being the case, is it not possible that a Taken Ahamkhara could be obedient to us if we chose to claim that title and mantle? That could in theory create a struggle of dominance over it between the Witness and ourselves.
This may be completely impossible and/or outlandish BUT what if the Ahamkara that hatches from the Taken Egg wants to fight the one that hatches from the egg we have?
Huh that would be sort of epic what happens when two ahamkaras fight
@@darkspiro6467 Could put Bungie into a better place, even slightly, if that could end up happening. And not in a lore book!
That’d actually set up a really good way to introduce more players on the wittness’ side. Given how all taken are under it’s control somewhat.
@@suruxstrawde8322 Being the season before Final Shape, something like this would definitely do that!
These would make a lot of sense, primarily the witness has controll over all Taken and it's defect Sivu so these is a big possibility but I don't believe bungie will invest on that they would have had to hire voice actors for the new Ahankara and that doesn't sound like something bungie would have done with everything that was going on.
it's possible that the egg is in stasis, or made unhatchable by being taken. mara's long term goal may have been to hatch the ahamkara and have it take riven's place. maybe it just becomes a backup once we share our discovery with the awoken
Thanks for the great hard work...that was fascinating.
On the subject of eggs, we can look back to a lore card from 2015. One of the best lore cards in all of destiny, outlining hints of lightfall and final shape.
Ghost Fragment: Mysteries 2
Ingress via dreams alone
Things I saw inside
A wild river and a broken dam (or maybe it's just the sea crashing through a narrow gap I can't be sure). Waves slam through the gap and where they hit the stone they throw up pillars of spray that pierce the mist and crash down in thunder. There's a giant in the cataract, trying to wade against the current, and I can tell it wants to reach the lever and pull the lever which will seal off the flow or maybe give it the sword, but the torrent throws it back so it just keeps its head down and tries to push on. I can't see the face but it breathes out white smoke. I feel for it hard.
(^ the inside of the traveler with the witness inside)
A world painted around the interior like a stranger Earth everted and glued inside itself but I don't believe this one it's too much like a metaphor.
(description of the traveler from the inside... smells faintly of vanilla ;) )
A switchboard or a train station, empty, dead (waiting). The tunnels branch off into infinity. I stare down one for a long time and see a pale worm move in hungry coils around itself. I think this one is the most likely although I might have brought the worm.
(Ahsa? Another worm perhaps?)
An egg but I'm not sure if the broth inside is warm still, or if it's gone to rot, or if the warmth comes from the struggles of the tiny winged zygote or the bleed from the wound or the thoughts of something thinking very hard.
(probably metaphor for the traveler but this may also be the egg we have in our possession..?)
A star I think. We count on stars as steady friends because they always rise and always shine but a star's a delicate truce: an explosion caught by its own mass so that it can't erupt and can't collapse. Thus I imagine the state of the machine might be. But one force or another has gone awry and now it rests here, snuffed and broken, waiting for the two rival forms of ruin to be set in balance again.
'waiting for the two rival forms of ruin'. Curious.
Light or dark perhaps?
The moment I saw the uncorrupted egg, I wondered what Mara had planned for her Taken one. She’s often two steps ahead, so she’d know something we don’t. I like to think she was planning on using its status as Taken to control it. Somehow bypassing the Witness and instead control the Taken Ahamkara herself. It’d be much easier to control its wish magic than an uncorrupted Ahamkara’s.
This was literally my second question. First how did savathun get maras egg. Then i remembered hers was taken
(Sorry for length. I'm just thorough with my thoughts is all.)
My guess is that when they met, Riven revealed to Savathun how to gain extra power through deception wishes, and the Imbaru Engine is the result of her adapting it to suit her needs impassively. That knowledge and the egg are Riven's means to keep Savathun in play gaining power to fight, and a failsafe in case a/the Taken egg breaks things up.
A few more theories: Xür's appearance and personality is based on a person of The Ammonite race, one of the races The Nine influenced and assisted during their war with the Hive (they didn't originate in Sol system.)
The Nine are..gatekeepers of a sort, but for their own interests.
The Final Shape will end with the Witness unknowingly tricked into or knowingly creating the key to opening the prison doors of The Deep (maybe with the Taken Wish Dragon's wish power), where the powerful beings of the ascendant plane have been trapped. The new baddies will be the Ascendants.
Also, the Cayde we see in the TFS teaser is who Elsie Bray is talking to when we encounter her as The Stranger. In her timeline, our Guardian died and Cayde lived. Afterwards, they did something similar to what we'll be doing over the next few seasons/TFS, and Cayde went in alone and lost contact as Sol was being destroyed. That's why Elsie ends up staying more on our timeline.. nothing left to go back to now with Cayde gone. We show up and he's there. Nobody else in the timelines made it through the portal that leads to where all timelines split, the central moment of time that connects all of them.
Again. Sorry for the length. Have a good one.
I wonder if there could be a chance that the Ahamkara in the egg, and here me out, is Riven. After all, Ahamkara are paracausal in nature, so what if through some wish magic, and the line about her prison loosening. It loosened, because she knew if she died, she could be reborn, in the possession of Savathun, who was willing to take up the strings. It's totally a crack shot of a theory, but it definitely is one that I have.
I would like this
Riven didn't want to be at anyone's command, it's why Riven is the only taken with its own will
By being reborn and in our control, she surrenders her will
3:20 - 3:40 Idea.
Nokris was cast out of Savathûn’s court as suddenly as he had been ripped into her presence. He drifted in the Ascendant Plane, no longer directionless.
Behind him, the court faded, and its shimmering illusion fell like curtains upon a stage. The dark core of the singularity wavered; sunken within its gravitational well was a lone Thrall and no other. Its death spread over eons of deterioration, mouth agape to utter words at the Taken Queen’s whim as patsy, and nothing more.
Her presence had been but a mirage, soaked and sold by the lie of her mouthpiece puppet to whom Nokris unknowingly spoke. In truth, only a Thrall stood within orbit of the singularity, for the Queen would not be so foolish to reveal herself.
Savathûn looked upon her charlatan court from distant transcendent hollows. Her nascent alliance had produced power twin-fold, in that of Nokris’s devotion, as well as his deception through her mouthpiece Thrall positioned within the singularity. She breathed in his desperate agreement and prepared for the struggle to come.
-
"Until now, the shadow from which you skulked has been your brother's. Without the Taken King to cast your swaddling shade, you stand naked in the sun for all to see, yes? No shadows, no hiding, no tricks. Just the Guardians and their god-slaying weapons."
"I have little to fear from the sun," she insists, but there is no twist in her face. No secret delight.
-
"Tell me, O Witness mine-does the Light that fills this once dreadfully tiresome space blind you from its newfound glory?"
Let me share my perspective then, which you must be waiting for with bated breath: my acquisition of the Light itself is delightful proof of an existence higher even than yours-a sort of karmic wit, if you will.
Logically, I'd assume Mara kept the egg as a means of restoring the Dreaming City.
Man that riven clip from dynasty gives me chills everytime
I want Shaxx to have a prominent role in next season's story, we know so much about him yet he rarely ever features in story content but given next season's theme, I think it would be awesome to see him pop up a few times with some of his own insight on the Ahamkara.
Could be possible since he participated in the great hunt (the skull above him in the tower is one of a wish dragon)
It's possible as Lennie James recorded new lines for the Halloween event, of all things. He's hard to get hold of for Destiny which is why Shaxx makes so few appearances, no way they brought him back just for the fucking Festival of the Lost. Though perhaps it was for The Final Shape.
I just want to see this new baby dragon be an ally and maybe a friend. If we can raise it without abusing it or it's power
99% sure it's how Cayde is supposed to return
Love all your lore videos!
Drifter is using it to make a comically large omelette
Byf, i thought there WAS a way to undo being taken. Uldren Sov was taken in Forsaken, and was untaken when he combined the power of the light with his own taken essence to restore Riven.
the Spire was made expressly for experiments with the light, so it’s not farfetched that the crux of her experiments was the Ahmkara egg being untaken.
at 15:42 you said that it would be too delicate for the hive but in a prior video you did a reading where it describes what the role of each of the hive gods was prior to them breaking up at Savathun's prompting. in that vid the text you read said something along the lines of Oryx leading and Savathun's spies (there was likely a thing abt Xivu being a space Nazi but I can'tremember). I could just be wrong about my memory here but using that exerpt it doesn't sound that insane to assume that the hive could have done just that. I mean Savathun snuck into the Guardian ranks as osiris, and while she didn't "steal" the light she did learn a great deal. Also having a brain wave as I'm writing this but as we see in the campaign Savathun can make clones of herself who I assume can interact with the material world so maybe she did something like that as she was sneaking out? Then again I joined destiny in the Beggining of the Witch Queen and have no where near the amount of experience you have with the game let alone the lore of it.
I recall Mara seemingly bargaining with Savathun and it creating mistrust between us. Perhaps part of the bargain was the exchange of the taken egg in exchange for something? Maybe Mara bargained for “control” of the cleansed and hatched Ahamkara or maybe even just the opportunity to wish away the taken curse cycle from the dreaming city…maybe the thought of an uncorrupted wish dragon being able to cleans the dream city was enough for her to bargain with savathun and it was all a part of her plans to get us to defeat her sister and revive her back into a position of prominence as the lone hive god empowered with the light…
I say we just scramble the sucker and make his bones into armor.
That worked so far!
We actually saw this egg earlier, when we first met Mara again in D2 by traveling trough the portals before her return to the system, it was there but most people didn't notice it i guess in part because it wasn't of the same textures as the taken eggs
It could be the wish dragons are "native" to the inside of the travelers biome, which would explain why they follow the traveler, because the traveler or gardner is home...or something of this nature. This could also explain some way to get through the portal. Back home so to speak for the upcoming season of the wish. Not through a wish but rather their paracausal power maybe.
Love all of your vids.
Since the Season of the Witch is about Savathuns experiments with the light its safe to assume that this was the culmination of all that effort. Fixing the Taken Wishdragon egg and preparing the guardian for the final shape through the imbaru engine.
Wei Ning before dying in the Great Disaster killed half a dozen Ahamkara with Eris Morn.
I’m so glad someone else brought up that Praedeth wished to fight forever and ended up lost in the Vault of Glass.
Random thought on one of your points in this vid.
Ahamkara may be shape-shifting dragons, but several real examples of faculative parthenogenesis spring to mind. Most excitingly in scientific terms; parthenogenesis was confirmed in two archosaur lineages: crocodilians & birds (Suggesting the possibility in non-avian dinosaurs).
Edit. Sorry if this reads like ai, I'm just Autistic and bad at conveying stuff..
In the last Ahamkara video you read that Riven basically relished it's deal with Queen Mara Sov because it loved the thought of finding a way to twist the queen's wishes, so i dont think Riven being imprisoned and yet not imprisoned would matter much to the young Ahamkara even if they do inherit the memories of their ancestors. What i keep thinking though is what if all this Ahamkara business is all part of Mara's desire to have a unique power all to herself and she ends up with both eggs (if there are two) thus having a Taken and normal Ahamkara at her side, even without the wishing wall the lore from the previous video stated basically the entirety of the Dreaming City was designed to mitigate the negative effects of Ahamkara granted wishes so she'd have ways of keeping them in line (also as you mentioned this video we Guardians are pretty effective dragon slayers). Since the Witness isnt technically in the universe anymore perhaps Mara could exert her will enough to effectively control the Taken Ahamkara if it hatches from it's egg, like when a radio signal suddenly cuts out and a different station comes in because you've gone too far from the station that was originally being listened to.
My take is that with some tech witch magic and hive magic we will, fuse both eggs to create a hatchling that is more tame, of weaker will if you may. Basically make it less unpredictable thanks to it's partial taken will, far far reach but one can dream.
We get 2 wishes. And it’s going to be a community event which wish we choose. I’m dreaming but it’s now a probability
When we first met Savathun in season of the Lost, Mara told us that she and Savathun "have come to an agreement", Mara's part in that agreement was the topic of the season, but we never got to know Savathun's part of the agreement, perhaps it was something to do with the ahamkara egg, and so when Savathun escaped at the end of the season she took the egg with her.
so a few thigs i've noticed in fantasy lore when it comes to dragons, clutch is often used to refer to siblings for dragons, so this could in theory be one of Riven's siblings, the other piece that could be the clue staring us in the face is the Harmony. They had wish dragons on their planet and we know Savathun's covens were hidden among them for centuries. So it is possible that Savathun and her covens stole a few eggs for study, since her worms domain was trickery and deception before it was removed, what better omelet then a creature who's whole purpose is trickery and deception
Probably not gonna go this way but here is how I would love for this tale of two dragons to play out: our egg hatches and we have to raise, bond with, control and synchronize with our Ahamkara as our final ally to enter the Traveller and face The Witness. Like second or third week, we learn Mara's egg hatched but the Taken dragon could not be contained and fled, potentially seeking The Witness. That gives us a ticking clock to ready our dragon. "End" of season, we launch an assault on the portal, only to meet the now grown taken dragon who smacks us and our dragon away, it's wish magic and Witness power overtaking us without the aid of the dormant Traveller, we are then insentivised with a community challenge to power up even more in the build up to TFS and the true season end is an epic battle where our dragon seemingly beats the Taken dragon, but both fall into the portal, our ally seemingly gone like Rasputin was in Seraph, but giving us our opening to dive in and start The Final Shape. But wait, there's more!! During the TFS campaign, we get to a boss fight with the still alive Taken dragon using Riven and Illusion dragon mechanics. At about half way, we are forced to wipe before our dragon, weathered but alive, charges in to save us and we have the two titans clash in the skybox as a visual spectacle of Light vs Darkness as we make our way to our final showdown. Wishful thinking, most likely. Badass as hell to imagine, definitely
One thing I'd like to say is that Riven wasn't the only taken being with independence. I'm pretty sure the original vex mind Oryx took (Q, blade transformed) when the vex invaded his throne world had some form of of independence. I don't remember how but I remember it simulating pre-taken king Oryx and savathun supposedly using it to learn to take and I remember the conversation Oryx and Savathun had when he gifted it to her. I say all that not to correct a small part of the video but because if we have two independent taken (both taken by Oryx l), taken weapons and armor wielded by guardians, guardians that wield the darkness and the light ect. There's definitely a chance we can start seeing stuff like us curing Sloane, maybe saving some scorn to give the kell of darkness to come to our side, maybe having conversations with some OLD taken beings and potentially seeing some old alien races only seen in lore show up for big dlcs or episodes. You could also make the argument that Oryx Taking himself after we beat him in the campaign means that a powerful enough being can just straight up be taken and still hold at least some of their own will or independence regardless of what whoever took them wanted.
I believe Malok from the april update back in d1 also had some form of will of his own. He did try to mantle Oryx's throne after all
Next season would be an awesome time to introduce a new suite of Ahamkara armor for all 3 classes.
I feel like I remember reading a long time ago that wish dragons have to be wished out of the egg. It's like a long forgotten memory that I can't place directly. I think it has something to do with their First Wish defining their natures or something like that.
I’m thinking two possibilities:
1) it’s an egg that was bargained for around the time of the Great Hunt, hidden in her Throne World as a means to deal with the Witness
2) Savathun knows more Ahamkara exist in forms and in places both unknown and or inaccessible to the usual suspects of Destiny’s universe. They do sit atop the 4th Wall after all.
Maybe you can "take" using the light.
So while not undoing the process Oryx did, but a change of ownership.
Thought of something recently about the relationship between the Leviathans, Worm Gods, and Ahamkara. If the Worm Gods are Leviathans corrupted by darkness then could the Ahamkara be Worm Gods "uncorrupted" by the light? It would make some deal of sense given that Ahamkara only pops up when the Traveler blesses or terraforms a planet, and it would make the lore entry where Xivu talks about how she is angry that her gods are serving another species make a lot of sense. If the Ahamkara are Worm Gods "uncorrupted" then they would probably wanna fight against the hive since the hive would probably want them dead. It would also explain their appearance and how they have the same "mandible" things that Worm Gods do while still having what appears to be vestigial filter-feeding teeth (found on the inner portion of Riven's "mandibles"). Obviously, they can change their form but I don't see why Riven wouldn't be in her normal form since there is no reason to shapeshift while she was locked away. This theory has a lot of holes like why aren't the uncorrupted worm gods named in the books of sorrow? Although I think that one is actually pretty obvious, they wouldn't be since they were traitors, and having that in the books of sorrow could've sown dissent within the hive. But yeah, just a fun theory I thought of.
Question, can wish dragons make wishes/deals etc. with each other? Sure they could do the whole pacific rim fight, but that to me seems obvious but what if with their own agendas, they’re trying to fight out of both our and the Witnesses’s control and turn this into some sort of love or friends at birth, or sibling story between the uncoruppted (light) and dark to show how you need both to pass through the portal.
Edit: Just thought of this but we havent interacted with crow in a while, so what if 2 eggs translate to the 2 siblings, crow (uldron) and mara, a “child of the light” with crow reacting with an uncorrupted egg and the ever selfish Mara with the taken egg, combined that’s a pretty good yin-yang dynamic
Fun fact: The word “Ahamkara” is a Sanskrit word meaning “A sense of being an individual separate from everything else” and it refers to the human ego. Fun little tidbit I found while surfing the web, though it should be shared
20:30 Parthenogenetic ahamkara? Parthenogenesis is more common in insects, but sharks and lizards can do it without "doing it."
8:34 Crown Splitter forever!
I really want to know how things are un-taken. We cured the techeuns in the Last Wish raid. The techeuns themselves also cured Riven’s heart for ‘the sake of plans to come’.
That is a good thought I mean in game logic we beat the living crap out of the techeuns and came back with bruises on them, but how they came back is very unclear and how the process actually works
What if the egg that was in Savathûn's possession is not of Riven's clutch but of one the ahamkara that lived among the Harmony. Savathûn might have toke the egg during the Hive's assault on the Gift Mast before Oryx and Xivu Arath could wipe them all out and Savathûn has had this egg all that time since.
it seems to me that this pure and untainted egg must have been whisked away by before oryx wishing to take riven, else she must have somehow purged the taint with some form of magic.
I think that since Mara took her Throne World back, that probably means that the Taken Ahamkara egg is under *HER* command, because it was likely corrupted when Mara's Throne World was taken. If she can take her TW back, she can probably command that Taken Ahamkara when it hatches.
Don’t know if it’s been said but it’s also a possibility that the egg Mara Sov had is the same egg that we have now, since it’s a possibility that when savathun left she just took the egg with her.
I think there is a potentially very important distinction to be made about taken. There is the potential that taken are not "husks" but rather the perfected versions of those life forms, and if Ahamkara's perfection involves a lack of subserviance or some kind of independence from something, then that may explain why riven was special.
Riven was special because Wishes are almost always subverted, and Riven manipulated Oryx in conversation such that her Taking was a Wish rather than an act of the Deep.
Just thought of this. What if part of savathuns plan was to wish for cayde’s death as a backup plan to send him into the traveler in case the guardians stopped her from sealing the traveler? Ahamkara appear as the traveler moves and she did know how to get in. we’re now going into a season with an ahamkara just before final shape. Just some food for thought
While I'd love something as big as a fight between two ahamkara, and a mini-war to enter the traveler, I have to go off of Bungie's track record and say that it isn't likely. I believe it will likely end up with one ahamkara hatching and the taken one being forgotten, or it will be the taken ahamkara egg turned back into a normal one. Bungie has done plenty of retcons before, so it wouldn't surprise me.
As I’ve said before! I’d love a giant kaiju moment for the season XD like they can push back final shape another 4-5months if we received a raid like that. As for the eggs, I always thought that the taken egg wasn’t so much a new wish dragon but more a reincarnation for reven. Like “in locking me in this prison you will use this egg to focus your power and from here I shall one day die and be released upon the world to be reborn in that egg” like imagine that is the case. As for the other egg, I’ve wondered if Savathun has had this ever since the war with the wish dragons? 🤔
I can't speak for how Savathun got the Ahamkara egg. What I can definitely say is that Savathun likely did not steal Mara's egg during the excorism. Because I remember that following the finale mission to Season of the Lost, the Ahamkara egg was still in Mara's Chambers. The only way Savathun could've stolen it at that point would've been after she was resurrected but given the timeline as we know it, Savy didn't have her memories, was presumably experimenting with the light, then we killed her in Witchqueen and she's been effectively dead and tucked away in the Hidden's Vault until now.
I like the idea that the egg was stolen, and Savathicc used us to reverse the taken affliction through the Imbaru engine. We "cleansed" the egg through the combined actions of death and life.
I think the hint of whether or not there are 2 eggs is in the use of the word "uncorrupted". If Corrupted Eggs are in reference to Riven's Taken Eggs, then an Uncorrupted Egg would be in reference to an Egg whose Taken Corruption was undone, un-taken. Otherwise Eris would say "non-corrupted" or "unaccounted" egg. Or Bungie just screwed up their wording
My thing with the taken eggs, if Riven did lay them, and if Riven has some control over some forces of the taken. Wouldn't it make more sense that Riven would lay Taken eggs and have control over her offspring?
As far as we know, we have no idea when Riven had these eggs if they are in fact hers. So it could be possible she was taken either before or during her eggs were being cultivated, which would result in Taken eggs.
I feel like the Ahamkara weren't a product of The Traveler coming to Sol, I feel like they are most likely attracted to paracausality and probably followed it here, similar to The Hive and The Fallen
I could very easily see Savathun stealing the egg in her escape of Mara's grasp and the Dreaming City. She was able to corrupt and control people, the Hive God of Cunning and Trickery finding a host to sneak up and grab it, and then calling a Hive ship to rescue her isn't that far off.
I don’t think it’s from Riven’s clutch, given a potential act and motive to support it.
In the books of sorrow, there’s a line that outlines Savathun’s role in the war against the harmony among the 3 Hive gods. In that, it states she had a secret purpose/mission, or something along those lines. I believe this was her trying to obtain an Ahamkara egg. But why would she need to?
Which brings me to intent. Savathun is a master in the art of cunning. She is he most self aware of her power, and thus her limitations. In the Awoken lore, in order for Mara to hold a high degree of power, she asks Uldren to find (what I think I remember the line saying) an asymmetrical source of power. Essentially something that no one else has. If Mara was smart bough to devise this plan, surely Savathun was too.
I do not know how long the hive have believed themselves to act on their own vs the time they realised their maker was the witness whom they serve. But if it was always in Savathuns’ game to rebel against the witness, study paracausal power of light and dark. It makes sense to take interest in a source of power so reality bending, yet neither affiliated with light or dark, but as equally ontological.
I only became aware of this in your first video on the Ahamkara released a couple days ago. I feel it a sound hypothesis unless there’S some hidden holes to poke in.
Take a shot every time byf says egg
You mentioned the name of a baby Ahamkara is called a Whim. Which is interesting considering what the definition of what the word "Whim" means: 'a sudden desire or change of mind, especially one that is unusual or unexplained.'. Perhaps this could infer on the decision making and path a newborn Ahamkara will make?
Could you imagine if it hatches and no matter who is controlling the taken at that time the dragon is controlling the taken or has been controlling the taken this whole time unborn and controlling them Love you man your voice I think asked Aztcross said it your voice is just butter I love it You're great and I'm sorry if I butchered crosses name
I think it would crazy if both hatched and we got to see them both fight each other. This coming season is going to get very interesting at any point.
Let's not forget that Shaxx is standing beneath an Ahamkara skeleton in the Tower...
And Savathûn has used those bones to sneak into the tower and manipulate him in the past
(Season of the lost lore i think)
if they are the same egg which has been cleansed, it could spell out some possibilities for Sloane and the hoards of other races which have been Taken
Perhaps the dueling dragons of light and dark could lead us into the story and episodic structure after the final shape. A wish dragon, so far as we know, feeds on the gap between what is and what is not. That's a hollow feeling. Let's call that a "yearning."
What if a dragon were raised on the light beside the Traveler, never wanting for friendship, never needing to twist and decieve? Cruelty may be in their nature because we perceive them that way. What if it's first wish granted were to not feed on a yearning? What if a dragon were surrounded by hope and instead fed on the gap between what is and what _can_ be? Let's call that an "aspiration."
Guardians are nothing if not human at their core. Some aspire to do good. Others yearn for a past they cannot know. Others want to inspire. Some just want to be paid. I foresee a time when Guardians become directionless after defeating the Witness. Idle minds and hands. Dueling dragons doling out wishes of similarly-aligned Guardians would, TRULY, be an epic proposition to entertain. Remember, monsters are real. They live inside us. And sometimes, they win.
We should keep in mind that "The Great Hunt" didn't extend beyond Sol, and the Ahamkaras' extinction only applies to our system, and we know that the Ahamkara exist beyond our reach, the Harmony had them, Calus had access to an Ahamkara bone so to say they're "extinct" is not really true given the limited reach of Humanity.
23:52 - Byf’s making slipping poop jokes in his scripts.
While I do like the idea of the egg being uncorrupted, I don’t think we can entirely rule out the idea of the egg being outside of Riven’s brood. The lore from the taken king expansion stated that older civilizations used Amahkara to fight the hive, even getting to the point of power to fight in throne worlds, though not to point of victory. But the hive did meet the Amahkara long before we entered the story. Who is to say that in those battles of old the witch queen didn’t take or bargain for a trophy.
I always interpreted Riven laughing with Oryx as Riven starting to match Oryxs will as she is taken. This is why she doesn't laugh when she does the deal with Savathun because she is freely independent.
Riven and savathun are both cut from the same cloth. Both wanted to be free from their bonds and weave threads of schemes to do it.
Here's some thoughts I had while watching the video:
1. Savathun's egg was laid by Riven before she was Taken. When she regained her individuality, she attempted to lay more eggs, which are all taken corrupted. She meets Savathun, who finds the uncorrupted egg, and wishes for Savathun to give her the egg. The Uncorrupted egg is the 1st egg Riven ever laid.
2. Mara Sov's egg is the last egg laid by Riven, before the Raid occurs. Either she willingly gave it to Mara, or It was found while we were destroying them with Wishender, and Mara decided to keep it.
3. Perhaps female(?) Ahamkara lay a clutch of eggs, which remain dormant until the female goes to another Ahamkara (perhaps a male one) and wishes for their eggs to hatch? The one granting the wish then gives its life force to the eggs to make them hatch.
I'm excited to see how things will play out. Ahamkara have been one of the things I never thought we'd actually see in the game, and now we are waiting on their inevitable return. Keep up the good work on the videos.
2 ahamkara duking it out would be an epic cutscene
Remember when we fought the memory of Riven in the Witchqueen campaign? Wonder if that’s going to come back again in Lightfall…
22:27 OH NO IT'S THE HAMMER AGAIN
Assuming that the eggs are not the same, I would think that the taken egg would answer to Riven. I think the eggs were placed around the dreaming city by Riven as her response to the curse cycle. Possibly to respond to the will of her heart and be reborn in a way through it. Regardless, I see this as a situation where the hatchling agrees to help in return for protection and freedom.