When is Bulk Fermentation Done? - Episode 4: “Overproofing Problems”
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- Are you struggling with overproofing your sourdough loaves? In this video, Tom uses the Bulk-O-Matic system to help beginning sourdough bakers identify the telltale signs of overproofing during bulk fermentation and identify the optimal point where bulk fermentation is done.
This video is a continuation of the experiment started in Episode 3. I recommend watching Episode 3 first. • MUST SEE: When is Bulk...
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Sections in this video:
0:00 Introduction
3:04 The Experiment
4:27 Understanding the Percent Rise
6:57 Measuring the Percent Rise
8:53 Mixing the Dough
12:35 5hr 45 min Checkpoint and the Bulk-O-Matic System
15:47 Loaf #1, 40% Rise, 6 Hours BF
21:25 Loaf #2, 50% Rise, 6.5 Hours BF
25:34 Loaf #3, 60% Rise, 7.5 Hours BF
32:04 Loaf #4, 100% Rise, 9 Hours BF
38:14 Day 2 Scoring and Baking
42:00 Overproofing Indications While Scoring
46:09 Comparing the Loaves
52:52 Cutting the Loaves
58:50 Side by Side Comparison
1:00:06 Summary - Навчання та стиль
I've gained more insight from your channel than the many other good ones I've watched. I'm now experiencing real progress, thanks to you. More sourdough bakers need to find your channel!
Thank you!
Killin it with the time travel! 🤪😜🥸👍🤓
I'm working on all kinds of advanced technologies here in my kitchen.
If I had chemistry professors like you, I would have paid more attention to their lectures. Your presentations come alive. Oh, BTW, your "poker-faced " humor is hilarious! Thanks for making me a chemistry addict once more.
Thanks. If you like my sense of humor, check out my “Sourdough Brothers” video. It is a comedy.
@@thesourdoughjourney is there a sourdough spouse in the works
Very detailed video and great experiment. Thank you so much for sharing all these tricks with us!
Thanks for the feedback.
Great information from the International Headquarters for Sourdough Excellence based in Cleveland, OH. I really like the Bulk-O-Matic Indicators and wish I had this when I first started with sourdough baking. I've had my best results when I do a 1 hour autolyze then add the salt and starter. I usually go for a 30% rise using an 8 oz. cup measure with about a 1 ounce piece of dough in the cup and use the milliliter scale to measure the rise. Thanks for all of your hard work and for sharing your results.
Thank you for the feedback!
Fantastic demonstration, Tom...extremely thorough and educational. Thank you
Thank you!
Hey Tom, thanks for going through these massive efforts to create such great content. The data really helps me out a lot.
Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. I’ll be summarizing lots of these findings on my website over the coming months so each video will also have a short printed summary.
And we’re back!
That always feels so weird 😂
We are always experimenting here at The Institute.
Wonderful!
I am very much enjoying your videos, very educational and the hummer is great
Thank you!
06:33 The first rule of the SD Consortium: we measure things precisely... 🤌🤌🤌 capisci ?
You got that right.
Great video profesor !!!! I can’t believe how much I’ve learned with your videos. My hat goes off to you. Thank you so much. Now I know that I didn’t know 🤝
thank you.
Even though i use poolish and dry yeast for my baking, you good sir still helped me to move from empirical approach to analytical. Thank you. From Russia with love.
Thank you for the feedback!
Very interesting, thanks for the experiments. I feel one variable has been missed out. And that’s protein percentage in the flour (let’s consider just white wheat flour, to have a good representation of glutens - as that’s what we really want to measure). Maybe volume increase of the perfect bulk is very much correlated to this number? In which case, say 100% volume increase perhaps is reasonable for very strong flours? So the optimal bulk dough volume increase is also determined by the properties of the flour.
Good point. The protein percentage definitely does impact the optimal percent rise. This whole experiment is calibrated specifically to the Tartine recipe. I’m working on adjustment factors of some variables now to adjust for deviations from that recipe.
Great experiment and explanations. Thank you!! 😍
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@thesourdoughjourney and I enjoy a lot your sense of humor :D Or is it a real consortium?! ^_^
I'm learning a lot with you. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Thank you for the feedback.
Love these videos.... and your kitchen!
Thank you! (I love my kitchen too) : )
This is where my frustration is. I’ve been taught that bulk fermentation is the “First rise” before shaping, then the proofing is the “second rise” after shaping, and then bakers use these terms synonymously and I lose all sense of which rise they are referring to.
I don’t know if it even matters, but as a beginner, when terms get used like this, I can’t figure out if this then applies to after my shaping. I’m assuming not, even though that’s actually when “proofing” begins.
But what I have to draw is that only in the pre-shaping rise is when I need to worry about the percentage of the rise, even though it’s being called over or under “proofed.”
That is correct.
Great video. Like always
Thank you!
You must be a professor....I have yet to see such thorough videos on this subject....and I have watched them all.
I am not a professor but perhaps I missed my calling. I’m am teaching in a way that I like to learn. I was frustrated with many of the videos out there so I began this adventure to fill a gap in the type of instruction typically found on UA-cam.
@@thesourdoughjourney well, you have done a great job and answered so many, if not all and even more, of the questions I had. I am a “what if-er”🤔 and it is best you do the experiments. After covid I am finally getting a little of my business back and hopefully won’t have time to wreak havoc in my kitchen with too many experiments...just bake the stuff. I do love the process producing sour dough and am progressing quite well after a couple three months in this addictive hobby and your videos have helped immensely, and I will recommend them to my friends. I did name my starter though reluctantly...her name is “COVID II”. She is quite healthy. 😳 so glad I stopped long enough to watch and learn. Thanks.
I am too late to come across this golden channel, already subscribed!
Thank you. I am just getting started.
I have learned so much from your videos. This one was spot on. I think that you still understand how frustrating and confusing it can be for a new baker (darn pandemic) and because of that your videos are on point. I wanted to try the meat thermometer/scale trick... but my psychic said time travel is not in my future.
Thank you for the feedback. I really understand how frustrating it can be as a beginner.
I have another video in this series coming out tomorrow.
@@thesourdoughjourney looking forward to it. Thanks for doing this.
Woah where was this video all of my (sourdough baking) life?
Thanks. Also check out my website at thesourdoughjourney.com
This is very useful! I just baked an amazing bread because of your video! 🙌
Thank you. I’m happy it worked out for you. Thanks for the feedback.
Thank you sooooooo much for this lesson !!
You're very welcome!
Thanks! so helpful!
Thank you!
My favorite YT gardener says “store bought tomatoes taste like disappointment.” The over-proofed loaf was “just sadness” stuck. Make it a Tshirt. Lol.
I agree with that (I also grow tomatoes, among other things).
Great!
Thank you!
This is wonderful information. What would really be helpful is to show how to measure the % of rise. How do you know when it’s 20,30,40% etc. Guess?
This video show how to measure it. ua-cam.com/video/PL6wSOrd4L8/v-deo.html
I forsee a spin-off series about time travel in your future. But I guess you already know about it.
Haha, yes. Been there.
it is just ridiculous too she the view counts as your work has been absolutely phenomenal, the guys at the Modernist Bread should definitively invite you for a crossover episode or article.
Thank you! I just purchased Modernist Bread recently. It is really mind-blowing.
@@thesourdoughjourney its still a bit too expensive for me and I'm afraid it will be too great of excessive overload of information haha.
Man, keep up the good work, my humble thanks for sharing your knowledge, and great sense of humour!
Thank you. Modernist Bread is a bit overwhelming. I’ve only scratched the surface. And lots of the essential findings are consistent with the experiments I’ve done (before I had the book), so it is confirming lots of what you find here. And on my website at thesourdoughjourney.com
So many videos to watch , thanks 🙏. I made sourdough bread , crumb ok but a bit moist almost gummy so I think it overproofed. Do you use a convection oven? My oven died 😢so I’m using a little countertop oven. 🤷♀️.
I generally do not use convection because I bake in a Dutch oven. Are you doing an open bake in the countertop oven, or using a Dutch oven? Are you adding steam if it is open bake?
@@thesourdoughjourney -the oven is small so I use a cake pan and an aluminum (disposable) cake pan as cover. Thanks for your guidance.
I think the doubling thing in recipes may be a lingering translation issue of old-time colloquial lingo, like the old use of the term probably didn't literally mean 2.0x
Yes, many people say their dough “doubles” and they are just eyeballing it. But others measure the doubling accurately and consistently overproof unless the dough is at a low temp.
Hi Tom Loved the video. When I cut open my loaves, the knife comes out tacky and the bottom crust of the bread is very thick. It's actually tough to cut through. Bread temperature after baking is 210F so I don't think it is under baked. Would you say these are signs of under proofing or over proofing during bulk fermentation? Or something else going wrong?
The crumb is the best indicator of under or over overproofing. Either one can produce a gummy crumb.
Try some slightly different baking times and temps. Every oven is different. Add or subtract 25F. And bake 5-10 min shorter or longer with lid on or off.
So you are always measuring percent rise from when you finish your stretch and folds? Not from when all the ingredients are mixed together?
Kind of, but not exactly. I make this recipe so often that I know my mixed dough starting point before S&Fs is always 375ml (for the 250g flour-weight loaves). So my bowls are marked with that starting point. I also know from experience, that there is very, very little rise in the dough during the S&Fs. The vast majority of the rise happens later in bulk fermentation. The S&F's will aerate the dough somewhat and it will be domed on top, but I've actually leveled and measured it in the past after S&F and there is very little measurable rise. So, to answer your question more directly, because I know my starting level (375ml) before S&F's that's actually what I am measuring against on my bowl marker.
Tom, isn't the necessary percentage rise target based on the amount of hydration and protein content in the flour itself? I imagine the percentage rise targets would be dependent on these variables.
I believe these have minor impacts. I did all of these experiments with the same recipe. But I did a later experiment with different bread flours. Higher protein flours “show the rise” slightly higher than lower protein flours (e.g., 40% rise in higher protein flour vs 35% in lower protein flour).
Similarly higher hydration dough may sit a little lower in the bowl.
But these are both pretty minor differences in my opinion.
So if a recipe calls for the dough to double in size, should we ignore that and use your Bulk-O-Meter markers to judge? Also can a dough be overpriofed AND stiff? My latest attempt bulk fermented for 10 hrs, doubled in size, and it was very stringy coming away from the bowl. But it wasnt loose or sticky. I barely needed any flour to shape it and it was very taut. But i still think it might be overproofed based on your chart.
Most recipes that call for “doubling” are wrong. It depends on the dough temperature. Bulk-o-matic is for warm dough. Here’s more guidance. thesourdoughjourney.com/the-mystery-of-percentage-rise-in-bulk-fermentation/
How come the doubling in dough during bulk fermentation works for some bakers? I’ve seen sourdough loaves that have nice crumbs, similar to a perfectly proofed loaf, even with an 100% volume increase during bulk fermentation. Learned a lot from the video, I really appreciated it. I’m thinking it is because of a lower temperature that they are fermenting at? Thank you.
You are correct. I cover this in Episode 8 of this series. The target percent rise is related to dough temperature.
When bulk fermenting at 80F/27C, you need to “hit the brakes” earlier because the dough keeps rapidly fermenting in the downstream steps.
I have never had success letting the dough double, even at low BF temperature. I think people say “double” without actually measuring it.
Very informative as usual! The issue I’m running into is different recipes call for different rise%. Also, the more you coil or stretch and fold keeps changing the size of the loaf in the container. Do you only measure the % rise after you finish all stretch and folds? I have been doing all my stretch and folds. Then move the dough to bulk container and record volume. Once it rises 30% stop. Does that sound right ?
Yes that sounds right. The dough does not rise much during the first few hours. Another technique is, right after you mix all the ingredients (before stretch and folds), put the dough in a measuring vessel and level it. This is your starting point. Mark the vessel or mark it in milliliters. Then move it back to a larger bowl until stretch and folds are done. After stretch and folds, move it to the measuring vessel.
I know with the 1,000g flour weight recipe in Tartine, the start I’ve volume is 1,500ml. So for that recipe a good rule of thumb is flour weight in grams x 1.5 = starting volume of all ingredients in milliliters.
Regarding different recipes calling for different rise %, it is dependent upon the dough temperature. Warmer recommended bulk fermentation temperatures call for lower percent rise, and cooler temps call for higher percentage rise. Check out Episode 8 of this series for that analysis. It is fascinating.
@@thesourdoughjourney Ok. So whether I mark the level of the dough before stretch and folds or after, the end %rise should be 30-50% either way. Correct? Because the dough will not have risen much during the first half or two-thirds of bulk rise?
Yes. The vast majority of the % rise is in the last 15% of bulk fermentation total duration. If it is a 5 hour rise time, for example, most of the rise will be in the last 45 minutes.
Tom, have you tried the aliquot jar method for measuring the bulk timing?
I have not. I will do that in one of the upcoming episodes.
@@thesourdoughjourney excited to see it. I love your videos, most thorough guy on the entire platform!
Found your series fascinating and reinforced the method that I have been using for the last 5 years, and to refine and improve.
However I have a problem, in the last 6 months the amazing flavor that I consistently had both of crump and particularly crust has gone. Everything looks great but having experienced great flavor want to get back there.
Saw suggestion of using as little a a teaspoon of starter makes it work harder, together with long fermentation might help...
Could you advise any steps that I can take to improve.
My leasing from you has been precise and consistent approach gets results, but have lost my way on flavor.
Hope you can help
Really enjoyed your series
Regards
BrensanK
Thanks for the feedback. Your issue may be with your flour. During the global pandemic there has been a flour shortage and many flour makers substituted different flours, used different supplier, or rushed the product to market without sufficient curing. I experienced this problem last summer. I’d suggest trying a different brand of flour or testing some other types of flour and see if this makes a difference. The flavor of sourdough bread is primarily from the flour (not the starter as some people may believe).
@@thesourdoughjourney Tom - really appreciate your reply - and had thought of this myself, but as there are so many variable with Sourdough was having doubts away my processes. Ironically having watched your series have become very mechanistic and producing very consistent Bread.
Once again thank you for your prompt reply and now looking forward to trying other flours and outcomes.
Is there a copy without a black background so it can be copied?
The last page of,this doc. thesourdoughjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Bulk-O-Matic-V1-04_25_21.pdf
Consistent with your scientific notion: "Why guess, when you can measure", have you ever considered measuring the pH of the dough, rather than using the smell test? To many of your viewers, this might seem like "overkill"; but as a scientist, I find this notion achievable. Of course, your other variables are worthy, as well.
Yes, I purchased an I expensive pH meter and really had difficulty getting consistent readings. A fellow baker of mine bought a more expensive on and his readings were inconclusive. It is something I am very interested in, but can’t justify the investment right now.
And people who measure these things say you really need to measure Total Titratable Acid to get a scientifically valid reading. And that is super complex to do in the kitchen. But I will eventually invest in a pH meter.
Tom the time traveller
It would be good to see the shaping challenges faced when you have loaves that have been over proofed
Thanks. Good recommendation. I was just thinking of that today. I will add this to my list of future topics.
@@thesourdoughjourney don’t you sleep Tom! Thanks for doing this I’ve just been watching the bulk o matic episodes three and four with my breakfast. So my bake at the weekend with the tartine recipe maintained a temperature of 25.5C -27C and started to retard my love after the four hour mark And had the majority of the bulk of Matic parameters in the zone. The rise was around 50% big bubbles good windowpane didn’t do the smell so why did they end up looking like loaf four? I’m even more confused than when I started Tom.
I will try again. But I expect to use the bulk of Matic system with different recipes and use the 30% rise as a guide and all the other parameters but maybe just be cognisant of time but don’t use it to influence all my other decisions.
50% rise is too much with that recipe, in my experience. I’d try cutting off at 30% and see how it goes. Also, your flour and starter may be different than what I’m using. So, the tool will help you dial in for,your specifics. You’ll get there after a few bakes. It will become more clear. The tool is really helping you develop skills. That is what is important.
@@thesourdoughjourney just done another bake today. I followed the bulk on Matic system to ensure that I had as many indicators as possible in the sweet spot. but after four hours the dough was again 50% increase in volume the temperature was never above 23.5C during this period. The only other indicators that were in the sweet spot was bubbles on the surface and bubbles on the side. None of the others that’s why I pushed it to 4 hours but the volume just kept increasing. The protein content of my flour is 12% and I wonder if the combination of the amount of sourdough starter and the amount of water is too much for this flour. I would appreciate your insight
I could stop at 30% volume increase but then none of the other parameters are likely to be in the range. What should I do, do I risk underproofed dough?
What rise are you expecting to get in the proofing refrigerator phase?
Usually little to no increase is size in the fridge. The loaf is still fermenting and “rising” but the cold temperatures shrinks the CO2 in the loaf so you won’t see it rise until it hits the oven heat when baking.
@@thesourdoughjourney sounds good! I was wondering if that’s okay that I don’t get any rise in the fridge.
I want to know what your profession is....it is something that requires attention to detail I'm sure. LOL if you gave it a name it would be Sadness!!
I am obviously the Chief Breadmaker at the International Institute for the Advancement of Sourdough Science and Research of Cleveland Ohio.
In a past life, I spent many years in business and finance. But I've always been more interested in science and art. (I also have a very dry sense of humor).