Katrina calling them out on what they were really wanting to do, separating them from their delusions, reminds me of when Sandman in the comics forces serial killers to see themselves for what they really are. I think a lot of mid level monsters are people who have deluded themselves into thinking what they do is cool or special rather than the grim dirty reality of it. Katrina stripped away their illusions.
If Willow, Xander and Giles represent Buffy’s Spirit, Heart and Mind, Tara unquestionable is Buffy’s Compassion. Tara is my favourite character in the season. Perhaps of the whole show.
Given how Buffy tends to beat herself up about everything (particularly in this season, but also just generally throughout the show), Tara refusing to let her do so here is so important.
14:46 Notice how Buffy here is in *exactly* the same place as Faith in Season 4 during the climax of the bodyswap. Both times, each character is atop of someone else who they project all of the things they deeply hate about themselves - beating the representation of who they are in disgust. With Faith, it was that she was a worthless, disgusting and murderous bitch. She was nothing but disgusting. With Buffy, it was that she was a soulless thing with no good in her. That she was disgusting and must have no soul to be so disgusting. Then at 17:46 Buffy completely breaks down, crying in Tara’s lap stating “it’s wrong. I’m wrong. Please don’t forgive me” exactly how Faith broke down in Angel, crying in Angel’s arms stating “I’m evil, I’m bad. Please just do it - just kill me”. Faith was a character designed to show how Buffy would become without the love and support of her friends and family. And here, after the death of her mother and alienated from her friends, Buffy indeed becomes as empty, violent and desperately depressed as Faith did. I just *really* wanted to draw peoples’ attention how near identical Buffy and Faith are becoming. Down to two of the most heartbreaking scenes for Faith are echoed here with Buffy. (I really hope someone noticed this also).
Great points! Though Buffy chose to do the right thing a lot sooner than Faith did, also highlighting some of the differences between them. Part of that just being that Buffy has a much better base to understand what's right because she has had that solid base of support and love, which Faith never had.
@@ceceliam9014Excellent point. Each time Buffy believes she’s killed a human, she goes to turn herself in to the police (the first time being when she thought she killed Ted). Whereas Faith was in denial and turned herself in years later, after letting the situation spiral Though they start as two extreme mirror opposites of the same person to begin with, as the seasons go on, we gradually see them both “meet eachother in the middle”. SPOILER: . . . . . . . . . . . . Buffy has a scar of The Master and Angel on the right-side of her neck, and Faith would later get the same scar by Angel on the left-side of her neck. By the end of the series, they become very much a Yin and Yang of the same being. Buffy becomes far harder, detached and militant whereas Faith becomes much softer, focused and compassionate. I don’t want to spoil too much - but I can’t wait until the final season where Buffy and Faith have a certain conversation. Can’t wait to see people’s reactions to it.
@@arc7375 SPOILER ALERT*** Personally, I don't love the depiction of Buffy in the final season. Mostly because Im tired of her getting zero slack from her friends and never being allowed to just be who she is and do what she feels needs to be done. She's proven herself time and time and time again and yet she still gets shafted and dismissed every time she does something a little imperfectly. I also hated the codependent "no one else is there for you" relationship with Spike continuing and even getting worse (it was like they had the same toxic patterns but now the show lacked self awareness of how toxic it was. I was really glad to see Faith again in season 7, and I love that she got to complete her arc on Angel and Buffy and be there at the end. It was great to see her coming into her leadership role, but it's a shame she was set up in competition with Buffy. Buffy has a scar from Angel too. And that's the one that's referenced more often. Though her death from the Master is referenced often, not so much his bite. Buffy and Faith are definitely foil characters. Buffy and Kendra were too, both of those foils highlight the balance of freedom and independence, as well as morality and respect that Buffy exhibits. She'll break the rules she needs to, but is good at knowing which ones are there for good reason. Faith is meant to show show aspects of who Buffy could be and who she'll never be, but she's also a very interesting and unique character in her own right.
@@ceceliam9014 I agree with the S7 part just cos Spike had a soul its like Buffy didnt need to deal with the trauma of AR even though that is one of the most horrific things shes ever gone through.
Exactly how Faith did when she was beating on Buffy in Season 4. And the way Buffy breaks down with Tara at the end is also very much like how Faith broke down In Angel’s arms.
Tara has been there for two of Buffy's toughest moments, here, and when they were at the morgue after Buffy's mother died when she talked to her about her mother's death and the suddeness and lack of suddeness. I wish we had seen more of that between those two events. I like Tara being the one Buffy can trust.
The parallel between the scene where Buffy is beating up Spike here and Faith-in-Buffy beating up her own body in Who Are You always kills me. They're both trying to hurt themselves.
As a die-hard Tillow shipper, I instinctively hate the break-up, but one major silver lining is the stengthening of (and increased screentime given to) the Buffy/Tara friendship: I greatly appreciate how the writers positively leverage Tara's current situation, being outside of the Scoobs but still invested, leading to several excellent Buffy/Tara (and Dawn/Tara) scenes. Plus, the Tillow reconciliation arc (Older and Far Away coming up next) is super cute.
Spike not having a soul, not knowing what a healthy relationship looks like and Buffy having an existential crisis is making it toxic. I think Buffy also cares about Spike, but she's in denial and is taking it out on him. He should walk away, but this goes back to when he was human he was also mocked and rejected by women that's all he knows. Warren is as bad as if not worse than some demons, he's definitely a psychopath. The other guys seem like hostages rather than partners or friends.
It's interesting to watch Spike and Buffy come to grips with their feelings for each other in this season. I think Spike has developed real feelings for Buffy, but he can only express those feelings in toxic ways. He's never had a healthy, adult relationship in his entire life, so it's understandable when he fumbles the ball in such epic ways. Still, I just love Spike's (redemption?) arc since getting the chip...and I love that Tara completely gets the situation.
Lacking a soul makes it difficult for him to get a healthy relationship going. His feelings of attachment are genuine but it makes him possessive and manipulative. He can’t understand why she’s hurting and probably doesn’t care that much. As long as he can manipulate her into being with him, he’s good. It’s really abusive language he’s using on her to isolate her from friends and family and shaming her. It’s not healthy when a human does it. Seems like it would be worse if a demon does it. He is separating her from humanity and trying to drag her down to his level of darkness. And she’s only allowing it because of her deep depression. That’s probably fueling self hatred the longer she stays with him.
Slight correction: Warren made the bot before he met Katrina. It's one of the things I think the show (and most people) get very wrong. Sex toys shouldn't be considered INHERENTLY disgusting, even if they can be unsettling. Just don't shame folks for things that don't hurt you or anyone else. Katrina is objectively wrong for calling him a creep over what amounts to a sophisticated sex doll. The creepiness was his treatment of Katrina and his lack of responsibility over the machine he had created. (Buffybot is different. This is using somebody's likeness without their consent, so it's at BEST a grey area, but honestly it's just morally wrong to fake something to a degree is could be mistake for real. The grey area is simply that we're all humans. We have fantasies or take inspiration from life. Failing to appreciate this would essentially render a lot of art a violation of the muse, and attraction before consent a thought crime. Both of which are obviously absurd) Warren does PLENTY of fucked up things without needing shallow sex shaming. I actually like Katrina's anger and lecture at the boys in this episode though. I think it touches on something very real. That MANY people delude themselves into thinking certain behaviours are okay, bc they find the outcomes beneficial. Here, it is undeniable that what they plan is rape. They just don't THINK of it that way, bc to them it's just "getting girls" A lot of evil is perpetrated by people who simply don't consider the implications with empathy for others. I don't particularly like the smart = unempathetic trope. I have honestly found the opposite to be true in life. Most of the smarter people I know genuinely care for others. But it is a very common trope. My FAVOURITE part is Buffy understanding how fucked up the situation is, and how it is NOT okay to use Spike just because he's a monster and also agrees to it. SHE knows. It honestly appalls me that MANY fans of the show seem to dismiss Buffy's own perspective to render her a pure victim (It's been rather refreshing to see this part of the discourse shrink as more reaction channels cover it. There REALLY is more nuanced understanding of sexual politics in the last handful of years) To me, the episode Seeing Red is the litmus test for principles. If people can forgive Buffy and Willow (and Anya and Faith) for all they have done but ABSOLUTELY condemn Spike for what he DIDN'T do (& should have been able to without remorse, as a soulless monster) then I have my answer. I don't even so much mind what side people fall on. But Faith, Willow and arguably Buffy have all done similar (whereas Anya is simply a reformed mass murderer) Either they're all beyond redemption for taking unforgivable actions... OR circumstances render their actions somewhat mitigated, and forgiveness attainable. & I'd argue of the bunch... Spike is the least responsible. He literally has no soul. No moral compass. He had done MUCH worse things *on screen* and DESCRIBED doing much, much worse things. And as always SMG's performance BREAKS you. She really is a special performer, and has NEVER received the credit she so clearly deserved.
I'm so glad one of my favorite Angel episodes aired the same night. This Buffy episode is one of the hardest (and in a string of hard episodes starting with the _Doublemeat Palace_ episode and ending with 6x18) episodes to watch, for me.
😂5:13 Dakara why do you have such a dirty mind 🤣 and Man there are some bloopers in this episode that James and Sarah couldn't get word's right, It's always crazy to see in this season what they could have gotten away with after landing that new Network before Standard's and Practices got in like "Wow okay chill guys! We can't show that!" Stay awesome my friend and remember You Rock 🤘
I'm sure someone else has said it but there is a catwalk at the Bronze. It's first seen in the first episode with Giles and Buffy talking about pointing out vampires
Yes . Buffy was a teenager needing a Watcher/ Guide for being a Slayer. Buffy is now a young woman and her sexual identity and needs are coming into focus. Spike is only to glad to be that guide and Buffy has the Slayer darkness . Now Buffy is understanding when Faith was talking about her needs.
@@williambowman1660I don’t think that’s what it is at all. Buffy had lots of sex with Riley. Spike is not an expression of Buffy as a mature adult that is exploring sexuality - Spike represents everything that Buffy is against - represents everything she hates and what she’s literally born to fight. Him having sex with her shows how much she hates herself and how she feels as unclean and “not good” to allow herself to be on the same level as him. Spike’s relationship with Buffy isn’t a sexual relationship - it’s symbolic of how empty and dirty she feels, and how she’s using Spike and is violent against him for fill the void.
@@arc7375 Thank you for your response. That’s how I felt for over 15 years. Like almost all BTVS stories there can be other underlying themes. I rewatched during 2020 and that is when I thought that there was the possibility of Buffy having a dark side to her sexuality. We saw the results of her unbridled and free to explore appetite in Where The Wild Things Grow. We have seen her desires for Riley after slaying and then the passionate sexual they have ( while Walsh watches. Have you thought that was a typical Buffy duality nod to watcher Giles?) At the end of Season 4 Buffy and Riley are partners. It was the opening of Season 5 that changed my perspective. Buffy was needing to go hunting . She can not rest/ sleep because she is not satisfied. She goes hunting, that’s not patrolling, and only after the kill can she find her needs satisfied and get some rest. She was a lioness on full speed to get her prey. She needed the violence from the kill to be at peace. Remembering Faith and Buffy with Riley in Season 4, the mixing of violence and sex is part of the Slayer DNA. I then saw the lack of vampires and violent demons for Buffy to kill or hunt for most of the season. She first kisses Spike after killing 3 i of Sweets henchmen. The second kiss is after they both killed vampires, similar to the fight she teamed with Riley in The I in Team. Her first sexual encounter is after she has been frustrated finding the Ice killer and fruitless research. Yea Buffy is depressed but the only emotion she is feeling is violence. That moment of attack and then slaying gives some reason and at least an adrenaline rush. After the frustration comes the violent fight with Spike. I agree Buffy is self hating but she is hating the world. She is depressed, suffering from PTSD, and no one is reaching out to really understand her…. Except Spike for selfish reasons. Spike and Buffy are terrible for each other but Buffy needs something to feel and sexual energy is something her body and mind can feel. With Spike , and his being a Vampire, the limits are lifted. She may hate herself after but she can go to a place that she is getting something needed while the world or a building can collapse. After all this is so common that Dawn does not expect Buffy to be at home. From Sid and Nancy to Whitney and Bobby in real life to Batman and Catwoman or George and Martha in Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf in fiction…. Toxic relationships are destroying the lives of the people but they can not separate They need the energy of the relationship. Inflicting pain on the other and then sex is a common theme. Buffy may not like herself but she has come back dozens of times and history tells us that the fulfillment is achieved by more destructive actions/
We see Buffy in every episode and the audience wants her to be a hero, and always heroic. But Buffy is a complex character and always has been. Her complexity has changed with her age. She is now a young woman that has been thrust into forced responsibility ( single mother, college drop out, saving civilization, and taken from heaven to name a few) all the while suffering from mental and emotional depression. It was not just the change in network but the change in Buffy that has just illuminated her sexual appetite and lustful desire to feel. We forget the darkness in Buffy and the sexual desires of fellow Slayer, Faith. After high school and her hook up with Parker, examine Riley. Once Buffy allowed herself to no longer deny herself, she took Riley to a world that was no longer with anyone else. They did not destroy a building but their sexual energy powered a jungle to grow in a house. Then how season 1 started, Buffy needed a hunt( violence) to be satisfied sleeping with Riley . For me , Buffy is where so many young women are that have allowed themselves to be in a toxic relationship and frustrated with their own life. She feels shame because she values herself and what she knows is about her own growth as a woman. Spike can not understand or do anything to give himself value. Drusilla turned him when he has no clue about becoming a man or understanding what love or sex meant . He only had a sexual relationship when violence and lust were present. Spike can satisfy part but like Riley he can’t deliver all. That is why we have the parallel story with Warren and the idiots. Warren and Spike can not appreciate anyone else but their own needs. Buffy has used Spike and that’s her real shame. If it was just sex she could understand but the decency within Buffy is what she is most ashamed. Unlike Faith, Warren, or Spike… she will go to the police and tell them she is responsible for a death, accidental , but still her fault. But using Spike is too hard and shameful for Buffy to tell her friends , family, or Giles. It’s not the sexual pain received and given, it’s the desire to use someone else for her own pleasure. For Buffy, that makes her just a variation of Warren and what she has always feared, like Faith. That is why Buffy is so complex. Part or becoming a strong, independent, and self assured woman also includes her sexuality. Buffy has discovered with Spike after Riley, she needs her equal to both give and receive satisfaction. Great acting in the episode and it needs SMG to no longer be a teen girl or coed but a strong woman with mature needs.
She doesn’t wanna ask Willow because she doesn’t wanna trigger her. People in recovery are very sensitive to certain things and Buffy is trying to be mindful of that and that is a good thing.
Tara is more mature than the other Scoobies. Perhaps because of her family situation, or because she lost her mother at a young age (which sort of led into her other family messiness). But it's why she was able to help Buffy when Joyce died, in a way that Willow, Xander, and Anya couldn't. Giles was this understanding when Buffy caused (unwittingly) Angel to lose his soul, and with him back in England, Tara takes the place of the -- not quite parent figure, but that of a wiser friend who you go to for advice. (I don't agree with Tara's "It's okay if you do, and it's okay if you don't" speech, but it is what Buffy needs to hear.)
You touched on this a bit in your commentary: I think there are parallels in multiple plot points here. Buffy’s trying to find a way to stop blaming herself for her relationship with Spike, and the nerds are trying to find a way to not blame themselves for killing Katrina. Additionally, @13:11 when Buffy’s telling Dawn what happened “there was an accident. There was a girl…she was hurt. I hurt someone.” She (understandably) feels guilty because she thinks she hurt Katrina. But the phrasing can also be read as her feeling guilty about hurting Dawn. Well constructed bit of storytelling, this one.
The way Spike intentionally uses Buffy's shame to try to separate her from her friends and own her in this episode really bothers me. And I think it's a more obvious version of something he does a lot. He tries to pull her down and hold her there. He also ignores a whole lot of "No" "Don't" and "Stop" throughout this relationship. Obviously Buffy just beat him to a pulp, too. So yeah, they're both very toxic here... But I just can't with how real the type of abusive control Spike exhibits here repeatedly with Buffy is, pushing further and further.
and there is that oh grow up gain…boys playing men…The Bronze has had an upstairs since Welcome to the Hellmouth…From the land of Doctor Who and you don’t get that timey wimey can be wonky???Tara, the only adult in the Scooby room...
Now you know that up to this point season 6 is the darkest season in Buffy. The network change did make the show raunchier but it also led to the writers taking some chances and some interesting storytelling and characterization. It only gets crazier in the second half of the season.
Arcs within arcs. No spoilers, but this was actually an episode that sort of defines a relationship between here and the finale at the end S7. Shutting up now to avoid spoiling, but I will be interested as I watch your reactions to see if that makes sense.
She didnt want to ask willow because they are keeping all magics and magical items away from her incase she slips. Thats why she asked the next super witch available plus to give tara airtime since she hasnt been seen much since her breakup with willow. This episode creeps me the f out. It shows how warren is a psychopath and actually a threat. Hes a monster but human you know??
Oof Season 6 is so tough to watch. Just all of it. The Big Bads just being three twisted humans, and Buffy being massively depressed, and just all the terrible things that happen… it’s probably one of the most effective seasons but I just don’t enjoy it because of how real it all is. That scene where she’s begging NOT to be forgiven… oof.
Buffy doesn't want to go to Willow for two reasons, 1: It's going to require magic to figure it out, 2: She doesn't want Willow to find out she brought her back wrong if it turns out there's something wrong with her. There may be a bit of 'don't want to admit what she's doing with Spike' in there as well but I think it's mainly the first two. I really do like your take on the relationship though, you have issues with both Buffy AND Spike where most people just handwave it, or just blame Spike entirely for the wrongness of their situation here.
i for one subscribe to the "death of the author" school of thought, which states that what's "intended" isn't inherently any more important than anyone else's interpretation. i feel a little sad when i hear you apologize for and caveat your personal reading of the material.
Passion of the Nerd put this well (and I'm reciting from memory, so caveats aplenty): Buffy as a work of art is complete, so we get to decide what it means.
This is the episode where we see how evil Warren truly is. 100% Misogynist, 0% conscience. The reactions of the other two are quite telling as well. Andrew thinks Warren can do no wrong: a true sycophant. I don't think he's even aware of how bad things really are. Jonathan, thankfully, is still Jonathan. He has the same look Willow had when she found out she ripped Buffy from heaven. He's horrified. He knows he's stepped in it again and is in way over his head.
I gotta admit when Buffy beat the snot out of Spike in that alley, it’s the only time I ever felt disgusted by her. We’ve all been to dark places but it’s never okay to assault somebody, especially if they do love you.
The idea "it's ok cause it's a monster" can't really work there, right? It feels bad, wrong even. She feels bad for sure. Then what about those others guys she beats to a pulp every other night? All the killing? They may be bad, but they are made of the same stuff Spike is. I call that "Buffy's dilemma.". Never a thing.
It’s the only time we see Buffy do this but what they do to each other in private May be much worse. Several of the comments between the 2 and what we saw in Smashed can only think that this is common. Buffy has looked to be in pain after time with Spike. With her Slayer powers, her aches and pains are not from only sex. She never was like that with Riley. Spike also looks rough after a night with Buffy and he is a Vampire that is not moving well after a romp with the Slayer To get the high they need more like any addict and they are needing more. Lastly, violent relationships were very popular in movies in this time period.Having this type of toxic relationship was not uncommon in hit movies and stories.
@@eduardofilippi7698 it’s like while he is still a monster, he can’t harm anyone BUT her. Even then, he doesn’t want to hurt her by choice because he loves her. Sleeping with him aside, he’s helped her and the scoobies countless times without asking for anything in return. She kinda lost the right to treat him like the other creatures where they can kill, will kill, and she has no attachments to them.
@@Pancake3225 that is the problem: Spike has to be just a thing otherwise she is just a female punisher killing bad people. But he is people for us and he is slowly becoming people for her as well. Most of fanbase really don't care but I think that for Buffy this distinction I'd be crucial for her sanity.
To be fair she should have staked him right there. As if a year of stalking and pressuring her into sex wasn't enough he's now coercing her into public sex and isolating her. Staking him would be a catharsis and let her start to rebuild her life. But no the show cared more about spike than buffy at this point.
I think we can see the way Buffy is now with Spike is that her sex addiction to him is reaching critical levels. Even though she needs him to fulfill her desires we know that deep down she knows this to be wrong, even though we see a soulless Spike seem to have genuine feelings at this stage. Buffy of course can confide in Tara, as she is still very much a periphery character in the group, and Buffy feels she can trust her without the others knowing. The Trio from being somewhat slapstick in earlier episodes are now becoming very sinister indeed, or rather Warren who is totally dominating the other two. Warren meeting Katrina again and treating her like this is terrible, this is actual sexual abuse (mirroring Rohypnol spiking), and the other two just seem to go along with it, as they a puerile idiots. When Warren murders Katrina, we can really see how totally evil he has become. The part back in The Bronze with Spike and Buffy is so telling, as she cannot resist the temptation from Spike, and he is questioning whether she really belongs with The Scoobies, again since switching Networks we can really see the adult tone of the show now. The devious plot by The Trio to frame Buffy for Katrina's murder spectacularly backfires thanks really to Spike begging Buffy to not go in, and I think it is so uncomfortable to watch Buffy beat Spike outside the Police Station, bordering on abuse after he tells her he loves her ' he says to her you always hurt the one you love'. When Buffy hears Katrina's name she realises the truth. A powerful ending when she opens up to Tara, saying 'why do I let him do these things to me' Buffy seems to be painting herself as a victim here, which in a way she is, but she is very much a willing partner unable to control her sexual urges. A terrific episode a 100% improvement on the preceding
Warren is completely psychopathic, and outside of possibly Angeles, the most evil character in the Buffyverse. Jonathon is beginning to show some regrets. Andrew just goes along with the flow.
Lot of people allow themselves to be dragged into this exaggerated drama. And for some reason lot of them consume whatever they see without asking any questions. When only current episodes exist, nothing else. All these things they are about plot consistency. Like she trusted him with Dawn and her mother even. But let's forget it. She doesn't trush him. This and many more examples when they clearly showed that the character is way more than the main vampire ideology of the show about 'souless monsters'. This idea was created for her to kill them easier and doesn't think too much, they are just monsters, there is nothing human left in them, typical war ideology. Demonization of the enemy. And for Angel to convince people that he has nothing in common with Angelus. That they are just completely different characters. But because of this ideology they f_cked up everything else. So everything should be bad now and this overused word 'toxic' etc. And she should be condemned by everyone around her and simply stoned to death maybe only because she allowed herslef to touch him and to be touched by him. Oh My God. And I would like people to actually see how much this all looks forced and exaggerated. I am waiting for the moment when someone of the reactors says 'Hey, that's actually not what I saw earlier and this looks forced'. They clearly went overboard in their desire to darken everything. All this season is about their desire to punish Buffy for what she did, to make her punish herself for it and to punish the audience who liked their story even when he was 'souless'. Because again, how could they. As well as how could she did that.
A soul weights a lot on the show. Of course, vampires are capable of emotions and even moral acts, but only for selfish reasons. Spike is not really a special vampire. Remember he is also the only vampire we see navigating life with a chip. He isn't murdering, raping, torturing innocents because he literally can't, not because he chose to be better. I think it's fair to question your decisions if you're sleeping with a serial killer in prison.
@@howdareyou259 oh yes. Why are you making me retell the story of the show? You don't know it? Why? - This 'murdering, raping, torturing innocents' , 'nothing more than a killer' is Angelus character. We are not talking about him. Spike was never "just a moster/vampire with nothing special about him". If you don't see the difference between them then you really don't want to and you don't understand what you are watching. And it's in no way about the characters, it's only about you. - What's up with 'selfish' comments? That people copy/paste one after another. Did you see somone talking about it and ever since copy it in every comment about that? What about thinking for yourself? So that I don’t have to retell the plot to you. - When he said that he couldn't live with Buffy being in that much pain if anything happened to Dawn and would rather let Glory kill him, oh yes, it was such a selfish act. Do you know many people who are just as selfish and who can do this? Can YOU do this? And when he thought that she is dead and he still was taking care of Dawn, also was such a selfish thing. He thought that she is dead! Hello. Or you think he was doing that because of the chip? Since you mentioned it. Then you don't understand what you are watching. Or when he sympathized with Dawn when she was crying because she was a key. So selfish again. And when he thanked Buffy that she treated him like a man and not like a monster because it was important to him. Not to be just a vampire who needs blood for living. But to be more than that. And many more examples. As I say, if there are more such 'selfish' people who are capable of this, perhaps there will be no wars in this world. Maybe let's even pray for that? Seriously. Do you know any of this? Why I have to retell this? Again, if you really don't see anything special in ANYTHING that I mentioned then you just DON'T want to see it, you don't need it. And no one should waste time proving it to you. And one small thing, did Warren have no soul? So they suggest that if you were born human, with a soul, so its presence should determine that you are 'good' and will not do anything bad, since it's a soul. Haha.
@@Junejane4 Chill out. It's not just Angelus, if you think Spike didn't do those things you didn't pay attention. Spike's love, if we can call it that, is a sick obsessive vampire love. That's why he builds a sex robot of her that mostly worships him. That's why he chained her and threatened to kill her if she didn't admit she had feelings for him. Of course having a soul doesn't make you good, it just gives you the ability to be consistently decent and not always want to eat people.
@@howdareyou259 what's wrong? Don't like it when people have smth to answer? My questions are relevant. Get used to with me. I don't tolerate nonsense when I see it. If you don't want me to answer then don't comment. You clearly said that he is nothing more than a killer, there is nothing else in him. And this is Angelus, that's why I pointed it out. And it shows how much you really want people to think that way about Spike. Too much effort talking about someone you don't think is special, don't you think? And I gave you lot of examples when it's simply not so and you just pretended like it wasn't there because you don't know how to comment them. And started talking about smth else. You think I don't see it? I don't wan't to waste time now describing Spike even before the chip. How he was used by Drusilla that didn't love him. And how he was trying to please her during his entire life, trying to win her over. How he spoiled her or how he tried to have the same monster image because she loved it in Angelus because she was crazy. She loved torture. And he was crying on Willow's shoulder when she left him. His character is not just some 'serial killer' like you say, that's just not his story. Again, this is Angelus story. And Spike story has always revolved around love and what he was ready to do for it, from the beginning till the very end, despite being a vampire, and around Slayers. That was his thing. And at some point it came together. You don't want to understand the other point too. This is not about that Spike didn't do anything wrong. It's about that if you have eyes you see what I said, that it was never just a moster/vampire label with him that you are pushing here. He is more than that so he's capable of more. Even Gellar saw that. She was hoping that Buffy would start trusting him because 'he understands her in a way no one else understands her' and she hoped that something good would start there, she felt the connection and thought that he deserved it. Before they ruined their story. But I guess you would also start teaching her that she doesn’t understand anything. If having 'a soul' still makes you kill people then it doesn't matter of it's there or not. It's not the 'soul' then.
@@Junejane4 And that's why I don't like seasons 6. People can't stop using symbolism to rationalize the completely inconsistent writing. The mistreatment of the Spike character messed up their lore of the show and the entire charm of the show. Spike has done good things left and right whenever it was in his interest as early as the season 2 finale. -Stopped Angel from ending the world. -Had a friendly relationship with Joyce. -Worked with the Scooby Gang to defeat evil countless times. -Did things for Buffy in season 5 purely out of love for her. -Took care of Dawn while Buffy was dead. -Was the only one she could turn to after coming back from Heaven. Then, in season 6 episode 9, the writers did a complete 180 and say "Nah, he's evil. No exceptions". Out of nowhere, his chip doesn't work on Buffy, and he immediately rushes to do something evil again. And he and Buffy finally become an item once the 2 beat each other down. And it just goes all downhill from there.
I have never been a spike and Buffy shipper but they had cute moments but this season and last season ruined whatever I felt. Watching them this season I just felt icky and kinda reminded me of my past toxic relationship sadly. It also makes me sad because knowing how smg felt about this season and how she didn’t like it and spike and Buffy stuff and filming the s*x scenes makes me kinda mad that joss didn’t listen to her.
Joss was being an A hole. He didn't like Spike and couldn't stand that audiences were shipping them. So, he went out of his way to destroy the relationship beyond belief.
@@x-man9473he was a monster. He bullied his staff all the time and would brag when he made his writers cry. And physically assaulted James Marsters for being popular despite playing an evil character. And tried to SA Michelle Trachtenburg when she was a minor.
@terrystickland219 It's the last thing Spuffy fans wanted. They wanted Buffy and Spike's romance to slowly execute his redemption arc. Instead, they shoved a toxic version of a romance down their throats and said "Well you asked for it. Hehe" as an excuse.
@@x-man9473 Quite, I imagine what Spuffers really wanted was a continuation (to its logical conclusion) of S5 Spuffy, which was frankly a delight (i.e. everything from the final scene in 5x7 Fool for Love, though the kiss at the end of 5x18 Intervention, to Spike's "you treat me like a man" speech in 5x22 The GIft).
Excuse me the problem isn't just the confusion behind they're relationship. It's the fact that they're using each other. You can make whatever excuse you want about how hard Buffy's life has been lately but she is still using someone to get what she wants and that's not something to just brush off as if it's nothing. Did you know Hitler had dogs and a girlfriend? Because he did... My point in case it wasn't apparent is even a bad person can love things. No one doubts that Spike cares and even loves Buffy but the fact is he's still a monster. He can't help it it's his natural but it is what it is.
With the amount of times dakara mentioned"toxic" I'm pretty sure she gets it. Empathizing with Buffys side of things doesn't mean she understands it any less.
Do NOT join her Discord, guys. I was in there, and out of nowhere teh varify via your phone number rule came up. I can't because there is an accidental duplicate account for my discord with my phone. I tried talking to Dakara, or a mod, zero response. Point is, if you have a problem, Dakara and crew do NOT have your back, they do not care. Seems like.
Tara really is the best person on the show. Her scene with Buffy always gets to me.
Hands down the best character!
We don't get a lot of Buffy/Tara scenes overall, but the ones we do get are amazing (think this scene, or their conversation in The Body).
Katrina calling them out on what they were really wanting to do, separating them from their delusions, reminds me of when Sandman in the comics forces serial killers to see themselves for what they really are. I think a lot of mid level monsters are people who have deluded themselves into thinking what they do is cool or special rather than the grim dirty reality of it. Katrina stripped away their illusions.
This is espicially true of Jonathon and Andrew. It's a game to them. They don't get it.
Tara is honestly the best, i love when she tells buffy its ok if you love him and its ok if you dont, she's so caring and understanding.
MVP😊
If Willow, Xander and Giles represent Buffy’s Spirit, Heart and Mind, Tara unquestionable is Buffy’s Compassion.
Tara is my favourite character in the season. Perhaps of the whole show.
@@arc7375 I'm so glad Tara makes it through to the end of the show safe, and goes on to live her own life, happy and free! :)
@@WoW4Hunter
Shhh. spoilers
Given how Buffy tends to beat herself up about everything (particularly in this season, but also just generally throughout the show), Tara refusing to let her do so here is so important.
14:46 Notice how Buffy here is in *exactly* the same place as Faith in Season 4 during the climax of the bodyswap.
Both times, each character is atop of someone else who they project all of the things they deeply hate about themselves - beating the representation of who they are in disgust.
With Faith, it was that she was a worthless, disgusting and murderous bitch. She was nothing but disgusting.
With Buffy, it was that she was a soulless thing with no good in her. That she was disgusting and must have no soul to be so disgusting.
Then at 17:46 Buffy completely breaks down, crying in Tara’s lap stating “it’s wrong. I’m wrong. Please don’t forgive me” exactly how Faith broke down in Angel, crying in Angel’s arms stating “I’m evil, I’m bad. Please just do it - just kill me”.
Faith was a character designed to show how Buffy would become without the love and support of her friends and family. And here, after the death of her mother and alienated from her friends, Buffy indeed becomes as empty, violent and desperately depressed as Faith did.
I just *really* wanted to draw peoples’ attention how near identical Buffy and Faith are becoming. Down to two of the most heartbreaking scenes for Faith are echoed here with Buffy.
(I really hope someone noticed this also).
Great points! Though Buffy chose to do the right thing a lot sooner than Faith did, also highlighting some of the differences between them. Part of that just being that Buffy has a much better base to understand what's right because she has had that solid base of support and love, which Faith never had.
@@ceceliam9014Excellent point. Each time Buffy believes she’s killed a human, she goes to turn herself in to the police (the first time being when she thought she killed Ted). Whereas Faith was in denial and turned herself in years later, after letting the situation spiral
Though they start as two extreme mirror opposites of the same person to begin with, as the seasons go on, we gradually see them both “meet eachother in the middle”.
SPOILER:
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Buffy has a scar of The Master and Angel on the right-side of her neck, and Faith would later get the same scar by Angel on the left-side of her neck.
By the end of the series, they become very much a Yin and Yang of the same being. Buffy becomes far harder, detached and militant whereas Faith becomes much softer, focused and compassionate. I don’t want to spoil too much - but I can’t wait until the final season where Buffy and Faith have a certain conversation. Can’t wait to see people’s reactions to it.
@@arc7375 SPOILER ALERT***
Personally, I don't love the depiction of Buffy in the final season. Mostly because Im tired of her getting zero slack from her friends and never being allowed to just be who she is and do what she feels needs to be done. She's proven herself time and time and time again and yet she still gets shafted and dismissed every time she does something a little imperfectly. I also hated the codependent "no one else is there for you" relationship with Spike continuing and even getting worse (it was like they had the same toxic patterns but now the show lacked self awareness of how toxic it was.
I was really glad to see Faith again in season 7, and I love that she got to complete her arc on Angel and Buffy and be there at the end. It was great to see her coming into her leadership role, but it's a shame she was set up in competition with Buffy.
Buffy has a scar from Angel too. And that's the one that's referenced more often. Though her death from the Master is referenced often, not so much his bite.
Buffy and Faith are definitely foil characters. Buffy and Kendra were too, both of those foils highlight the balance of freedom and independence, as well as morality and respect that Buffy exhibits. She'll break the rules she needs to, but is good at knowing which ones are there for good reason. Faith is meant to show show aspects of who Buffy could be and who she'll never be, but she's also a very interesting and unique character in her own right.
@@ceceliam9014 I agree with the S7 part just cos Spike had a soul its like Buffy didnt need to deal with the trauma of AR even though that is one of the most horrific things shes ever gone through.
Buffy definitely projected herself onto Spike when she was beating on him.
Exactly how Faith did when she was beating on Buffy in Season 4.
And the way Buffy breaks down with Tara at the end is also very much like how Faith broke down In Angel’s arms.
"I'd ask Willow, but...I don't want to involve her in dabbling in magic again" is my best shot.
Mine is that she also didn’t want to say to willow, “the spell you did, brought me back wrong”
@@EvanSawyer4
A bit of both I think but I’d place magic detox at a higher level.
Tara has been there for two of Buffy's toughest moments, here, and when they were at the morgue after Buffy's mother died when she talked to her about her mother's death and the suddeness and lack of suddeness. I wish we had seen more of that between those two events. I like Tara being the one Buffy can trust.
The parallel between the scene where Buffy is beating up Spike here and Faith-in-Buffy beating up her own body in Who Are You always kills me. They're both trying to hurt themselves.
Who else loves the whole Buffy/Tara burgeoning relationship in the second half of season 6?
As a die-hard Tillow shipper, I instinctively hate the break-up, but one major silver lining is the stengthening of (and increased screentime given to) the Buffy/Tara friendship: I greatly appreciate how the writers positively leverage Tara's current situation, being outside of the Scoobs but still invested, leading to several excellent Buffy/Tara (and Dawn/Tara) scenes. Plus, the Tillow reconciliation arc (Older and Far Away coming up next) is super cute.
@@terrystickland219 Absolutely, Tara just seems to blossom in season 6.
When you watch season 1 who would have thought we'd have such a dark twisted episode a few seasons later?? The range of this show is crazy!
Wow this is one of the darkest episodes in this dark season 6.
dark? not as dark as the episode we never should talk about..
@@LegoGBlok I said one of the darkest not THE darkest lol
The crack of that bottle - the day the music died
Spike not having a soul, not knowing what a healthy relationship looks like and Buffy having an existential crisis is making it toxic. I think Buffy also cares about Spike, but she's in denial and is taking it out on him. He should walk away, but this goes back to when he was human he was also mocked and rejected by women that's all he knows. Warren is as bad as if not worse than some demons, he's definitely a psychopath. The other guys seem like hostages rather than partners or friends.
It's interesting to watch Spike and Buffy come to grips with their feelings for each other in this season. I think Spike has developed real feelings for Buffy, but he can only express those feelings in toxic ways. He's never had a healthy, adult relationship in his entire life, so it's understandable when he fumbles the ball in such epic ways.
Still, I just love Spike's (redemption?) arc since getting the chip...and I love that Tara completely gets the situation.
Lacking a soul makes it difficult for him to get a healthy relationship going. His feelings of attachment are genuine but it makes him possessive and manipulative.
He can’t understand why she’s hurting and probably doesn’t care that much. As long as he can manipulate her into being with him, he’s good. It’s really abusive language he’s using on her to isolate her from friends and family and shaming her. It’s not healthy when a human does it. Seems like it would be worse if a demon does it.
He is separating her from humanity and trying to drag her down to his level of darkness. And she’s only allowing it because of her deep depression. That’s probably fueling self hatred the longer she stays with him.
Stopped in to leave a comment and a like 👍
Dark but very important and powerful ep
Slight correction:
Warren made the bot before he met Katrina.
It's one of the things I think the show (and most people) get very wrong. Sex toys shouldn't be considered INHERENTLY disgusting, even if they can be unsettling.
Just don't shame folks for things that don't hurt you or anyone else.
Katrina is objectively wrong for calling him a creep over what amounts to a sophisticated sex doll. The creepiness was his treatment of Katrina and his lack of responsibility over the machine he had created. (Buffybot is different. This is using somebody's likeness without their consent, so it's at BEST a grey area, but honestly it's just morally wrong to fake something to a degree is could be mistake for real. The grey area is simply that we're all humans. We have fantasies or take inspiration from life. Failing to appreciate this would essentially render a lot of art a violation of the muse, and attraction before consent a thought crime. Both of which are obviously absurd)
Warren does PLENTY of fucked up things without needing shallow sex shaming.
I actually like Katrina's anger and lecture at the boys in this episode though.
I think it touches on something very real.
That MANY people delude themselves into thinking certain behaviours are okay, bc they find the outcomes beneficial.
Here, it is undeniable that what they plan is rape. They just don't THINK of it that way, bc to them it's just "getting girls"
A lot of evil is perpetrated by people who simply don't consider the implications with empathy for others.
I don't particularly like the smart = unempathetic trope.
I have honestly found the opposite to be true in life. Most of the smarter people I know genuinely care for others. But it is a very common trope.
My FAVOURITE part is Buffy understanding how fucked up the situation is, and how it is NOT okay to use Spike just because he's a monster and also agrees to it. SHE knows. It honestly appalls me that MANY fans of the show seem to dismiss Buffy's own perspective to render her a pure victim (It's been rather refreshing to see this part of the discourse shrink as more reaction channels cover it. There REALLY is more nuanced understanding of sexual politics in the last handful of years)
To me, the episode Seeing Red is the litmus test for principles.
If people can forgive Buffy and Willow (and Anya and Faith) for all they have done but ABSOLUTELY condemn Spike for what he DIDN'T do (& should have been able to without remorse, as a soulless monster) then I have my answer. I don't even so much mind what side people fall on. But Faith, Willow and arguably Buffy have all done similar (whereas Anya is simply a reformed mass murderer)
Either they're all beyond redemption for taking unforgivable actions... OR circumstances render their actions somewhat mitigated, and forgiveness attainable. & I'd argue of the bunch... Spike is the least responsible. He literally has no soul. No moral compass. He had done MUCH worse things *on screen* and DESCRIBED doing much, much worse things.
And as always SMG's performance BREAKS you. She really is a special performer, and has NEVER received the credit she so clearly deserved.
Love tara! So glad she gets through the show happy and unharmed
I'm so glad one of my favorite Angel episodes aired the same night. This Buffy episode is one of the hardest (and in a string of hard episodes starting with the _Doublemeat Palace_ episode and ending with 6x18) episodes to watch, for me.
😂5:13 Dakara why do you have such a dirty mind 🤣 and Man there are some bloopers in this episode that James and Sarah couldn't get word's right, It's always crazy to see in this season what they could have gotten away with after landing that new Network before Standard's and Practices got in like "Wow okay chill guys! We can't show that!" Stay awesome my friend and remember You Rock 🤘
I'm sure someone else has said it but there is a catwalk at the Bronze. It's first seen in the first episode with Giles and Buffy talking about pointing out vampires
The blocking of the two scenes is disturbingly similar.
Yes . Buffy was a teenager needing a Watcher/ Guide for being a Slayer. Buffy is now a young woman and her sexual identity and needs are coming into focus. Spike is only to glad to be that guide and Buffy has the Slayer darkness . Now Buffy is understanding when Faith was talking about her needs.
@@williambowman1660I don’t think that’s what it is at all.
Buffy had lots of sex with Riley.
Spike is not an expression of Buffy as a mature adult that is exploring sexuality - Spike represents everything that Buffy is against - represents everything she hates and what she’s literally born to fight.
Him having sex with her shows how much she hates herself and how she feels as unclean and “not good” to allow herself to be on the same level as him.
Spike’s relationship with Buffy isn’t a sexual relationship - it’s symbolic of how empty and dirty she feels, and how she’s using Spike and is violent against him for fill the void.
@@arc7375 Thank you for your response. That’s how I felt for over 15 years. Like almost all BTVS stories there can be other underlying themes. I rewatched during 2020 and that is when I thought that there was the possibility of Buffy having a dark side to her sexuality. We saw the results of her unbridled and free to explore appetite in Where The Wild Things Grow. We have seen her desires for Riley after slaying and then the passionate sexual they have ( while Walsh watches. Have you thought that was a typical Buffy duality nod to watcher Giles?) At the end of Season 4 Buffy and Riley are partners. It was the opening of Season 5 that changed my perspective. Buffy was needing to go hunting . She can not rest/ sleep because she is not satisfied. She goes hunting, that’s not patrolling, and only after the kill can she find her needs satisfied and get some rest. She was a lioness on full speed to get her prey. She needed the violence from the kill to be at peace. Remembering Faith and Buffy with Riley in Season 4, the mixing of violence and sex is part of the Slayer DNA. I then saw the lack of vampires and violent demons for Buffy to kill or hunt for most of the season. She first kisses Spike after killing 3 i of Sweets henchmen. The second kiss is after they both killed vampires, similar to the fight she teamed with Riley in The I in Team. Her first sexual encounter is after she has been frustrated finding the Ice killer and fruitless research. Yea Buffy is depressed but the only emotion she is feeling is violence. That moment of attack and then slaying gives some reason and at least an adrenaline rush. After the frustration comes the violent fight with Spike. I agree Buffy is self hating but she is hating the world. She is depressed, suffering from PTSD, and no one is reaching out to really understand her…. Except Spike for selfish reasons. Spike and Buffy are terrible for each other but Buffy needs something to feel and sexual energy is something her body and mind can feel. With Spike , and his being a Vampire, the limits are lifted. She may hate herself after but she can go to a place that she is getting something needed while the world or a building can collapse. After all this is so common that Dawn does not expect Buffy to be at home. From Sid and Nancy to Whitney and Bobby in real life to Batman and Catwoman or George and Martha in Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf in fiction…. Toxic relationships are destroying the lives of the people but they can not separate They need the energy of the relationship. Inflicting pain on the other and then sex is a common theme. Buffy may not like herself but she has come back dozens of times and history tells us that the fulfillment is achieved by more destructive actions/
We see Buffy in every episode and the audience wants her to be a hero, and always heroic. But Buffy is a complex character and always has been. Her complexity has changed with her age. She is now a young woman that has been thrust into forced responsibility ( single mother, college drop out, saving civilization, and taken from heaven to name a few) all the while suffering from mental and emotional depression. It was not just the change in network but the change in Buffy that has just illuminated her sexual appetite and lustful desire to feel. We forget the darkness in Buffy and the sexual desires of fellow Slayer, Faith. After high school and her hook up with Parker, examine Riley. Once Buffy allowed herself to no longer deny herself, she took Riley to a world that was no longer with anyone else. They did not destroy a building but their sexual energy powered a jungle to grow in a house. Then how season 1 started, Buffy needed a hunt( violence) to be satisfied sleeping with Riley . For me , Buffy is where so many young women are that have allowed themselves to be in a toxic relationship and frustrated with their own life. She feels shame because she values herself and what she knows is about her own growth as a woman. Spike can not understand or do anything to give himself value. Drusilla turned him when he has no clue about becoming a man or understanding what love or sex meant . He only had a sexual relationship when violence and lust were present. Spike can satisfy part but like Riley he can’t deliver all. That is why we have the parallel story with Warren and the idiots. Warren and Spike can not appreciate anyone else but their own needs. Buffy has used Spike and that’s her real shame. If it was just sex she could understand but the decency within Buffy is what she is most ashamed. Unlike Faith, Warren, or Spike… she will go to the police and tell them she is responsible for a death, accidental , but still her fault. But using Spike is too hard and shameful for Buffy to tell her friends , family, or Giles. It’s not the sexual pain received and given, it’s the desire to use someone else for her own pleasure. For Buffy, that makes her just a variation of Warren and what she has always feared, like Faith. That is why Buffy is so complex. Part or becoming a strong, independent, and self assured woman also includes her sexuality. Buffy has discovered with Spike after Riley, she needs her equal to both give and receive satisfaction. Great acting in the episode and it needs SMG to no longer be a teen girl or coed but a strong woman with mature needs.
She doesn’t wanna ask Willow because she doesn’t wanna trigger her. People in recovery are very sensitive to certain things and Buffy is trying to be mindful of that and that is a good thing.
Really important episode and so audacious. Buffy's writting is so great
Tara is more mature than the other Scoobies. Perhaps because of her family situation, or because she lost her mother at a young age (which sort of led into her other family messiness). But it's why she was able to help Buffy when Joyce died, in a way that Willow, Xander, and Anya couldn't. Giles was this understanding when Buffy caused (unwittingly) Angel to lose his soul, and with him back in England, Tara takes the place of the -- not quite parent figure, but that of a wiser friend who you go to for advice.
(I don't agree with Tara's "It's okay if you do, and it's okay if you don't" speech, but it is what Buffy needs to hear.)
You touched on this a bit in your commentary: I think there are parallels in multiple plot points here. Buffy’s trying to find a way to stop blaming herself for her relationship with Spike, and the nerds are trying to find a way to not blame themselves for killing Katrina. Additionally, @13:11 when Buffy’s telling Dawn what happened “there was an accident. There was a girl…she was hurt. I hurt someone.” She (understandably) feels guilty because she thinks she hurt Katrina. But the phrasing can also be read as her feeling guilty about hurting Dawn. Well constructed bit of storytelling, this one.
I think the largest parallel is how Buffy is walking down the same path as Faith and acting just the same.
@@arc7375 You know, I hadn't even considered the Faith/course-of-the-series angles and I agree with you completely.
The way Spike intentionally uses Buffy's shame to try to separate her from her friends and own her in this episode really bothers me. And I think it's a more obvious version of something he does a lot. He tries to pull her down and hold her there. He also ignores a whole lot of "No" "Don't" and "Stop" throughout this relationship.
Obviously Buffy just beat him to a pulp, too. So yeah, they're both very toxic here... But I just can't with how real the type of abusive control Spike exhibits here repeatedly with Buffy is, pushing further and further.
and there is that oh grow up gain…boys playing men…The Bronze has had an upstairs since Welcome to the Hellmouth…From the land of Doctor Who and you don’t get that timey wimey can be wonky???Tara, the only adult in the Scooby room...
At this point we should get t-shirts made saying "Anyer & Xanya"
Now you know that up to this point season 6 is the darkest season in Buffy. The network change did make the show raunchier but it also led to the writers taking some chances and some interesting storytelling and characterization. It only gets crazier in the second half of the season.
Arcs within arcs. No spoilers, but this was actually an episode that sort of defines a relationship between here and the finale at the end S7. Shutting up now to avoid spoiling, but I will be interested as I watch your reactions to see if that makes sense.
She didnt want to ask willow because they are keeping all magics and magical items away from her incase she slips. Thats why she asked the next super witch available plus to give tara airtime since she hasnt been seen much since her breakup with willow. This episode creeps me the f out. It shows how warren is a psychopath and actually a threat. Hes a monster but human you know??
For me, the disturbing thing is when Buffy & Spike are looking down at the dance floor and they are dancing a Charleston.
Oof Season 6 is so tough to watch. Just all of it. The Big Bads just being three twisted humans, and Buffy being massively depressed, and just all the terrible things that happen… it’s probably one of the most effective seasons but I just don’t enjoy it because of how real it all is. That scene where she’s begging NOT to be forgiven… oof.
And this is exactly why that is my favorite season. Because of how real it feels
Buffy doesn't want to go to Willow for two reasons, 1: It's going to require magic to figure it out, 2: She doesn't want Willow to find out she brought her back wrong if it turns out there's something wrong with her. There may be a bit of 'don't want to admit what she's doing with Spike' in there as well but I think it's mainly the first two.
I really do like your take on the relationship though, you have issues with both Buffy AND Spike where most people just handwave it, or just blame Spike entirely for the wrongness of their situation here.
i for one subscribe to the "death of the author" school of thought, which states that what's "intended" isn't inherently any more important than anyone else's interpretation. i feel a little sad when i hear you apologize for and caveat your personal reading of the material.
Passion of the Nerd put this well (and I'm reciting from memory, so caveats aplenty): Buffy as a work of art is complete, so we get to decide what it means.
This is the episode where we see how evil Warren truly is. 100% Misogynist, 0% conscience. The reactions of the other two are quite telling as well. Andrew thinks Warren can do no wrong: a true sycophant. I don't think he's even aware of how bad things really are.
Jonathan, thankfully, is still Jonathan. He has the same look Willow had when she found out she ripped Buffy from heaven. He's horrified. He knows he's stepped in it again and is in way over his head.
Does that mean the rest of the time we see how truly evil Anya was, 100% misandrist 0% conscience or regret for her time as a vengeance demon?
I gotta admit when Buffy beat the snot out of Spike in that alley, it’s the only time I ever felt disgusted by her. We’ve all been to dark places but it’s never okay to assault somebody, especially if they do love you.
The idea "it's ok cause it's a monster" can't really work there, right? It feels bad, wrong even. She feels bad for sure. Then what about those others guys she beats to a pulp every other night? All the killing? They may be bad, but they are made of the same stuff Spike is. I call that "Buffy's dilemma.". Never a thing.
It’s the only time we see Buffy do this but what they do to each other in private May be much worse. Several of the comments between the 2 and what we saw in Smashed can only think that this is common. Buffy has looked to be in pain after time with Spike. With her Slayer powers, her aches and pains are not from only sex. She never was like that with Riley. Spike also looks rough after a night with Buffy and he is a Vampire that is not moving well after a romp with the Slayer To get the high they need more like any addict and they are needing more. Lastly, violent relationships were very popular in movies in this time period.Having this type of toxic relationship was not uncommon in hit movies and stories.
@@eduardofilippi7698 it’s like while he is still a monster, he can’t harm anyone BUT her. Even then, he doesn’t want to hurt her by choice because he loves her. Sleeping with him aside, he’s helped her and the scoobies countless times without asking for anything in return. She kinda lost the right to treat him like the other creatures where they can kill, will kill, and she has no attachments to them.
@@Pancake3225 that is the problem: Spike has to be just a thing otherwise she is just a female punisher killing bad people. But he is people for us and he is slowly becoming people for her as well. Most of fanbase really don't care but I think that for Buffy this distinction I'd be crucial for her sanity.
To be fair she should have staked him right there. As if a year of stalking and pressuring her into sex wasn't enough he's now coercing her into public sex and isolating her. Staking him would be a catharsis and let her start to rebuild her life. But no the show cared more about spike than buffy at this point.
Spike and his magic wand 🪄 lol
I think we can see the way Buffy is now with Spike is that her sex addiction to him is reaching critical levels. Even though she needs him to fulfill her desires we know that deep down she knows this to be wrong, even though we see a soulless Spike seem to have genuine feelings at this stage. Buffy of course can confide in Tara, as she is still very much a periphery character in the group, and Buffy feels she can trust her without the others knowing. The Trio from being somewhat slapstick in earlier episodes are now becoming very sinister indeed, or rather Warren who is totally dominating the other two. Warren meeting Katrina again and treating her like this is terrible, this is actual sexual abuse (mirroring Rohypnol spiking), and the other two just seem to go along with it, as they a puerile idiots. When Warren murders Katrina, we can really see how totally evil he has become. The part back in The Bronze with Spike and Buffy is so telling, as she cannot resist the temptation from Spike, and he is questioning whether she really belongs with The Scoobies, again since switching Networks we can really see the adult tone of the show now. The devious plot by The Trio to frame Buffy for Katrina's murder spectacularly backfires thanks really to Spike begging Buffy to not go in, and I think it is so uncomfortable to watch Buffy beat Spike outside the Police Station, bordering on abuse after he tells her he loves her ' he says to her you always hurt the one you love'. When Buffy hears Katrina's name she realises the truth. A powerful ending when she opens up to Tara, saying 'why do I let him do these things to me' Buffy seems to be painting herself as a victim here, which in a way she is, but she is very much a willing partner unable to control her sexual urges. A terrific episode a 100% improvement on the preceding
Warren is completely psychopathic, and outside of possibly Angeles, the most evil character in the Buffyverse. Jonathon is beginning to show some regrets. Andrew just goes along with the flow.
Toxic relationship, absolutely but I will never not appreciate shirtless Spike.
7:45 Jonathan and Andrew are just geeks who don't understand better, Warren is a full on psychopath who's manipulating them.
Lot of people allow themselves to be dragged into this exaggerated drama. And for some reason lot of them consume whatever they see without asking any questions. When only current episodes exist, nothing else. All these things they are about plot consistency. Like she trusted him with Dawn and her mother even. But let's forget it. She doesn't trush him.
This and many more examples when they clearly showed that the character is way more than the main vampire ideology of the show about 'souless monsters'. This idea was created for her to kill them easier and doesn't think too much, they are just monsters, there is nothing human left in them, typical war ideology. Demonization of the enemy. And for Angel to convince people that he has nothing in common with Angelus. That they are just completely different characters.
But because of this ideology they f_cked up everything else. So everything should be bad now and this overused word 'toxic' etc. And she should be condemned by everyone around her and simply stoned to death maybe only because she allowed herslef to touch him and to be touched by him. Oh My God. And I would like people to actually see how much this all looks forced and exaggerated. I am waiting for the moment when someone of the reactors says 'Hey, that's actually not what I saw earlier and this looks forced'. They clearly went overboard in their desire to darken everything. All this season is about their desire to punish Buffy for what she did, to make her punish herself for it and to punish the audience who liked their story even when he was 'souless'. Because again, how could they. As well as how could she did that.
A soul weights a lot on the show. Of course, vampires are capable of emotions and even moral acts, but only for selfish reasons. Spike is not really a special vampire. Remember he is also the only vampire we see navigating life with a chip. He isn't murdering, raping, torturing innocents because he literally can't, not because he chose to be better. I think it's fair to question your decisions if you're sleeping with a serial killer in prison.
@@howdareyou259 oh yes. Why are you making me retell the story of the show? You don't know it? Why?
- This 'murdering, raping, torturing innocents' , 'nothing more than a killer' is Angelus character. We are not talking about him. Spike was never "just a moster/vampire with nothing special about him". If you don't see the difference between them then you really don't want to and you don't understand what you are watching. And it's in no way about the characters, it's only about you.
- What's up with 'selfish' comments? That people copy/paste one after another. Did you see somone talking about it and ever since copy it in every comment about that? What about thinking for yourself? So that I don’t have to retell the plot to you.
- When he said that he couldn't live with Buffy being in that much pain if anything happened to Dawn and would rather let Glory kill him, oh yes, it was such a selfish act. Do you know many people who are just as selfish and who can do this? Can YOU do this?
And when he thought that she is dead and he still was taking care of Dawn, also was such a selfish thing. He thought that she is dead! Hello. Or you think he was doing that because of the chip? Since you mentioned it. Then you don't understand what you are watching.
Or when he sympathized with Dawn when she was crying because she was a key. So selfish again. And when he thanked Buffy that she treated him like a man and not like a monster because it was important to him. Not to be just a vampire who needs blood for living. But to be more than that. And many more examples.
As I say, if there are more such 'selfish' people who are capable of this, perhaps there will be no wars in this world. Maybe let's even pray for that? Seriously.
Do you know any of this? Why I have to retell this?
Again, if you really don't see anything special in ANYTHING that I mentioned then you just DON'T want to see it, you don't need it. And no one should waste time proving it to you.
And one small thing, did Warren have no soul? So they suggest that if you were born human, with a soul, so its presence should determine that you are 'good' and will not do anything bad, since it's a soul. Haha.
@@Junejane4 Chill out.
It's not just Angelus, if you think Spike didn't do those things you didn't pay attention.
Spike's love, if we can call it that, is a sick obsessive vampire love. That's why he builds a sex robot of her that mostly worships him. That's why he chained her and threatened to kill her if she didn't admit she had feelings for him.
Of course having a soul doesn't make you good, it just gives you the ability to be consistently decent and not always want to eat people.
@@howdareyou259 what's wrong? Don't like it when people have smth to answer? My questions are relevant. Get used to with me. I don't tolerate nonsense when I see it. If you don't want me to answer then don't comment.
You clearly said that he is nothing more than a killer, there is nothing else in him. And this is Angelus, that's why I pointed it out. And it shows how much you really want people to think that way about Spike. Too much effort talking about someone you don't think is special, don't you think? And I gave you lot of examples when it's simply not so and you just pretended like it wasn't there because you don't know how to comment them. And started talking about smth else. You think I don't see it?
I don't wan't to waste time now describing Spike even before the chip. How he was used by Drusilla that didn't love him. And how he was trying to please her during his entire life, trying to win her over. How he spoiled her or how he tried to have the same monster image because she loved it in Angelus because she was crazy. She loved torture. And he was crying on Willow's shoulder when she left him. His character is not just some 'serial killer' like you say, that's just not his story. Again, this is Angelus story. And Spike story has always revolved around love and what he was ready to do for it, from the beginning till the very end, despite being a vampire, and around Slayers. That was his thing. And at some point it came together.
You don't want to understand the other point too. This is not about that Spike didn't do anything wrong. It's about that if you have eyes you see what I said, that it was never just a moster/vampire label with him that you are pushing here. He is more than that so he's capable of more. Even Gellar saw that. She was hoping that Buffy would start trusting him because 'he understands her in a way no one else understands her' and she hoped that something good would start there, she felt the connection and thought that he deserved it. Before they ruined their story. But I guess you would also start teaching her that she doesn’t understand anything.
If having 'a soul' still makes you kill people then it doesn't matter of it's there or not. It's not the 'soul' then.
@@Junejane4 And that's why I don't like seasons 6. People can't stop using symbolism to rationalize the completely inconsistent writing. The mistreatment of the Spike character messed up their lore of the show and the entire charm of the show.
Spike has done good things left and right whenever it was in his interest as early as the season 2 finale.
-Stopped Angel from ending the world.
-Had a friendly relationship with Joyce.
-Worked with the Scooby Gang to defeat evil countless times.
-Did things for Buffy in season 5 purely out of love for her.
-Took care of Dawn while Buffy was dead.
-Was the only one she could turn to after coming back from Heaven.
Then, in season 6 episode 9, the writers did a complete 180 and say "Nah, he's evil. No exceptions". Out of nowhere, his chip doesn't work on Buffy, and he immediately rushes to do something evil again. And he and Buffy finally become an item once the 2 beat each other down. And it just goes all downhill from there.
I have never been a spike and Buffy shipper but they had cute moments but this season and last season ruined whatever I felt. Watching them this season I just felt icky and kinda reminded me of my past toxic relationship sadly. It also makes me sad because knowing how smg felt about this season and how she didn’t like it and spike and Buffy stuff and filming the s*x scenes makes me kinda mad that joss didn’t listen to her.
Joss was being an A hole. He didn't like Spike and couldn't stand that audiences were shipping them. So, he went out of his way to destroy the relationship beyond belief.
@@x-man9473he was a monster. He bullied his staff all the time and would brag when he made his writers cry. And physically assaulted James Marsters for being popular despite playing an evil character. And tried to SA Michelle Trachtenburg when she was a minor.
@@x-man9473 I do feel for the Spuffers, S6 Spuffy is the pinnacle of Joss giving the fans what they want and then making them wish he hadn't.
@terrystickland219 It's the last thing Spuffy fans wanted. They wanted Buffy and Spike's romance to slowly execute his redemption arc.
Instead, they shoved a toxic version of a romance down their throats and said "Well you asked for it. Hehe" as an excuse.
@@x-man9473 Quite, I imagine what Spuffers really wanted was a continuation (to its logical conclusion) of S5 Spuffy, which was frankly a delight (i.e. everything from the final scene in 5x7 Fool for Love, though the kiss at the end of 5x18 Intervention, to Spike's "you treat me like a man" speech in 5x22 The GIft).
Excuse me the problem isn't just the confusion behind they're relationship. It's the fact that they're using each other. You can make whatever excuse you want about how hard Buffy's life has been lately but she is still using someone to get what she wants and that's not something to just brush off as if it's nothing.
Did you know Hitler had dogs and a girlfriend?
Because he did...
My point in case it wasn't apparent is even a bad person can love things. No one doubts that Spike cares and even loves Buffy but the fact is he's still a monster. He can't help it it's his natural but it is what it is.
With the amount of times dakara mentioned"toxic" I'm pretty sure she gets it. Empathizing with Buffys side of things doesn't mean she understands it any less.
Do NOT join her Discord, guys. I was in there, and out of nowhere teh varify via your phone number rule came up. I can't because there is an accidental duplicate account for my discord with my phone. I tried talking to Dakara, or a mod, zero response. Point is, if you have a problem, Dakara and crew do NOT have your back, they do not care. Seems like.