"MMO" Means Nothing Anymore. (Asmongold Reacts to Bellular)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Why MMO Means Nothing Anymore
Original video by Bellular Gaming: • “MMO” Means Nothing An...
Support Bellular
/ join
/ @bellulargaming9515
► Asmongold's Twitch: / asmongold
► Asmongold's Twitter: / asmongold
► Asmongold's 2nd YT Channel: / zackrawrr
► Asmongold's Sub-Reddit: / asmongold
Thank you all for watching! Stay tuned and subscribe to the official Asmongold UA-cam Channel to always be kept up to date about the best Asmongold Highlights, Asmongold Reacts and funniest Asmongold moments from World of Warcraft, Elden Ring, Lost Ark, Final Fantasy 14 (FFXIV) and other games played on stream!
Channel Editors: CatDany & Daily Dose of Asmongold
► 🎸 Outro song: CatDany - Get Enough
If you own the copyright of content showed in this video and would like it to be removed:
► / catdanyru
►
#Asmongold
In my mind, an MMO is just a game that is always online and where you have a big shared open world in which you can see and meet many other people and play together. I don't think the endgame really matters too much for that definition. WoW could technically not have any endgame and only have the leveling and it would still be an MMO. A boring one but non the less an MMO.
That’s literally what an MMO is though lol I think they mean MMORPG
Yeah what he said^ also i think its them seperating the paid character mmorpgs vs say the normal mmorpgs that have mainly only cosmetics that are paid
I feel the same way for the most part, though I don't necessarily like using the term "open world", where the term is usually used as the opposite of a linear game, which MMO's can most certainly be. The key example I'd use of an MMO that I used to play is Wizard101.
Large shared open world AND can not be better categorized by another title... Diablo, PoE are ARPG's, Destiny 2 is a Looter Shooter. They may have some MMO features but they are best described as something else.
I haven't seen anyone else mentioning this but did people forget about quests? Im not a typical MMO player but for me a MMO is an Online Open world game that has Quests. I think Questing in an open world with other players is the definition of MMO
First logging into WoW all those years ago (vanilla) it just blew my mind that I was online with thousands of other players, each character was a real person behind it.. we have forgotten that though and everyone treats everyone else like garbage.
cuz the games pay to win so when u have a bunch of rich ppl max gear thinking they know everything it makes a toxic community
@@silvioantonio6952 they dont count because they are pvp with ranking systems.
@@csick425 gotta love attributing random things that have nothing to do with pay 2 win to pay 2 win! Next up, I bet it'll be the cause of climate change and ww3 lmao
@@loonylunaticmaxhammer3401 what? Why would that make them not count? Most MMO's also have PVP with ranking systems...
@@loonylunaticmaxhammer3401 and are you really saying wow wasn't toxic in 2007? Because you def didn't play in a raiding guild if you think so
An odd, but really good example of a MMO space is from the MMO-FPS, Planetside 2. Sure it's a first person shooter, but everything you do in that game revolves around everyone else you see playing it. It's built around it's playerbase and without it, is functionally dead in the water.
this is real and true. would have been a good point of comparison against games like destiny or warframe which are mmo-shooters but with instanced content. cheers.
When Planetside 2 came out i had so much fun in it and its still probably one of the most epic moments in FPS gaming i have ever experienced, it gave the true feeling of being insignificant footsoldier whose life doesn't matter in grand scale :D
as a person that really wishes more mmos (that i liked) allowed me to play it like a singleplayer game, i 100% agree with the take that people enjoy being in that open world where you can see other people. i don't ever want to actually talk to you since that genuinely makes me nervous, but just knowing i'm seeing a ton of people running around in the world i'm in is badass and i love it.
I really like the small things like doing a quest or gathering and another player shows up and you do it together or running somewhere and seeing a group doing a difficult event and you join them. I don't think I talked to anyone ingame in the past month or so... I just want these silent interactions.
You want to play in a living world but you don't want to be assigned group projects :)
Have you tried playing single player games with optional multiplayer? They do exist.
why are you nervous to talk?
Wow bad mmo good
Asmons story about his mom only using a guild for the perks is great, him then proceeding to finish the story by outing his mom for robbing a guild bank, it literally had me in tears I was laughing so hard, Asmon didn’t fall far from the tree lol
With how much developers are incentivized to make games pay to win its no wonder the genre is having an identity crisis. All we can do is support the games that don't waste our time/money. Really hope Ashes of Creation is a banger.
@@llava2173 You realize they have to make money to keep a game running right? You people always have something to complain about if it aint about items that help you progress you start crying about fucking COSMETICS?! You are the main reason mmos are dying.
@@JaeJae95 Whats the point of the monthly sub then? If a game has 2 million subscribers are we supposed to believe that it costs $30mil a month to maintain servers and the game?
@@SquaulDuNeant It's like people have completely forgotten about the subs and box prices they pay for games. Server costs have fallen significantly as technology approved and becomes more available, and most modern MMOs don't back up their revenues with quality game development, just more microtransactions. The shilling is real with some of these folks for sure.
Ashes of Creation will not succeed. Do you know why?
The main target audience is hardcore PvP players.
The node system has the same problem as the faction system in New World : one faction can overtake the map, and if you're not from that faction, well no content for you!
@@SquaulDuNeant You got some serious issues brother LMAO!
Monster Hunter is an online co-op rpg not an MMO. I think the definition of an MMO has kind of absorbed the online co-op rpg genre. I think the distinction is still important since when you say online co-op rpg, games like monster hunter, or borderlands, etc comes to mind, hell I would say genshin falls under this category too.
"You dont need number 9" says the guy that has to have all the mounts and get neurotic about it lol. FOMO can also ruin games easily sadly, i've seen it many times, a game is doing well and they add in more and more FOMO, pushing you are into it and then it never matters again while leaving aspects of that in the game to show you that you lost out.
what you didnt notice tho is that we all ask for it all the time, YEH? GIVE US MORE CONTENT! MORE CONTENT WHEN?! and then those players quit because they have a Valid reason to do so, Only to come back a week/month later and complaining about missing out.. do this over and over and you have created a FOMO LOOP for yourself.. Try to not be BOUND by TIME?
&
Coming soon to Conan exiles.. fomo is the new loot box
@@askarn94 the problem is they make it limited time
as a person In my mind, an MMO is just a game In my mind
I think the best and most accurate definition of an MMO is a game where there are a majority of instanced spaces, whether in towns\hubs, in the field, in a raid, etc., that allows a large multitude of players to see and interact with each other socially and mechanically.
Activities that help to that end are like raids, world pvp, field bosses, field events, or something casual like queuimg for large-scale field races (PSO2 NGS, queuing up to 32 people for a Field Race) or jump puzzles (in FFXIV).
You ever try GW2? That game is a true MMORPG in every sense. From your personal character getting it’s own backstory to having content in starter areas still being relevant and rewarding for end-game players.
Depending on your definition of "large", Destiny 2 would be an MMO based on this criteria because it has all those elements.
@@Nickulator D2 is basically an MMO/looter shooter chimera
@@fort809 Agreed.
What i enjoyed about the MMO's i played is basically Solo stuff. Even things like farming, literal farming crops, fishing, hunting or cooking. Running around, exploring new zones, climbing montains and enjoying the views. The game i played the most is Age of Wulin/Wushu
You may like ESO if you haven't tried it describes what you mentioned but even if has all that one thing can pull people off like some People don't like the combat whole others love it because it's better than tab targeting.
Playing MMO solo... Yea that's why it is so bad these days
i read this comment and was certain you were a 2007 runescape player
@@tctrickshot also runescape yea
@@zentikk Playing with others 24/7 can get tiresome after a while so solo content in MMO's is good thing to have, for me PvP was always the go-to solo stuff when i needed some "me time" while still wanting to enjoy the gameplay in MMO's and if i didn't feel like doing combat i did gathering and crafting or played/manipulated games economy for hours.
The definition of an MMO is that its Massively Multiplayer. If you can't have a Massive amount of people in one area then its not massive. Its just online multiplayer. Having a 12 player hub doesn't make it an MMO, an MMO doesn't have a hub. The most popular city is the "hub" and 50+ people should be able to be seen chilling in it around points of interest.
Amazing how Tencent is ruling the gaming industry. Warframe belongs to Tencent, so Soulframe will too. And, they often do cool stuff. So it's not like EA or Ubisoft garbage. But still, strange.
The word what makes a game mmo and not just multiplayer online is the first M.
Which stands for MASSIVELY, this means games like wow did fit this description perfect. Because it was massively populated...
It wasnt with lobbys like 12 players or even 50 it was with hundreds and thousands just in one city.
They didnt call battlefield mmo because they make maps with 32players and more.
There is no map for bf that starts a server with thousands of players on one map.
I don't consider Lost Ark an MMO.
Here are the defining characteristics of a fundamentally pure MMO for me:
1. Everywhere you go is persistent for all players (excluding story dungeons or any instanced story element, OR exclusive areas granted access for completing certain questlines). If someone is fighting, crafting, trading, talking, or doing just about anything; you're going to see it - not just them boxing with shadows like Diablo Immortal. I'd argue that seeing multiple people fighting copies of the same boss is still more engaging than watching people swing at instanced enemies you can't see (except for EXCEPTIONALLY rare circumstances where it's necessary).
2. The world is non-linear. While the overall QUESTLINE may bring you through a linear progression through the world, the world behind you still serves purpose in future quests AT ALL TIMES. The best examples of these for me are Runescape and Maplestory. Games like POE and Lost Ark would NOT fall under this category because despite being able to go back to previous areas, you don't REALLY have a necessary reason to except to grind mobs you like or w/e. In places like Runescape and Maplestory, you can go back to the locations you first spawned into the world and see both new players and old players because they all have some relevant reason to be there, not just to hang out. This is one of Runescape's best features and what makes people so attached to its world, arguably more than any other MMO out there.
3. You can feasibly interact with every player that exists (single-server). Regardless of channel hopping or instancing - you are NEVER restricted from seeing another person for any reason.
25:50
Guild Wars 2 proves that skaling works perfectly fine.
I'm mostly hyped for Palia to come out. it is an mmo purely focused on daily life interactions between players, crafting and other professions like hunting, mining, fishing and so on. you can play until max "level" without having to touch parts of the game you don't want to do. pacifists don't ever have to kill, hunters could just hunt all day.
and most important, there is no "hurry the word is getting destroyed by/through x". but i still don't know what the actual story will be because i don't want to spoil it for that game.
10:30 Old tibia had so much exploration... I remember going to caves and trying to find hidden spots for new quests
People gonna start calling MMOs metaverses mark my words
For me an MMO has 2 requirements: 1 - In order to complete the core game content a large group is required. 2 - The world is shared and has a population at least 100 times greater than the group requirement to complete core content.
So, "MMO" is the new "roguelike."
It's basically just a meaningless term to make something sound cooler than it is.
its almost impressive how such an old and well established genre quickly devolved into a "hot new indie game" marketing buzzword. all it took was a bunch of clueless "game journalists" and the vast sea of moronic steam taggers who can't even bother looking up what the word means. and even if they did they'd just see "game journalists" calling everything under the sun a roguelike.
Despite popular belief, the term "Roguelike" is actually a very apt definition of a very particular gameplay loop, unlike the term "MMO".
Not every indie game is a Roguelike, but a lot of them are.
@@Nickulator The very fact that the term "roguelike" has been debated for decades, and that terms like "roguelike-like" and "roguelike-lite" are commonly used suggests that (a) roguelike isn't as precise of a term as you suggest, and that (b) plenty of game developers and game consumers don't agree on the exact requirements.
Heck, there was even an international conference in Berlin (International Roguelike Development Conference 2008) that set to define what "roguelike" meant, and it qualifies what is roguelike on a scale. The game Rogue, from whence the term "roguelike" originates, didn't even receive the highest score on the Berlin Interpretation scale. It came in like third or fourth. And it's only one interpretation of the term, at that. People still regularly debate if other popular titles like Diablo are roguelikes, despite having a majority of the qualities of a roguelike but aren't turn-based, or if they're "roguelike-like" or "roguelike-lite." In other words, "roguelike" exists at best on spectrum, and not as a precise definition of (as you say) "a very particular gameplay loop."
And the fact that the diversity of games that fit under the "roguelike" umbrella reflects this. Disagree? Check any of a number of game review sites or game genre tags on Steam to peruse the diversity for an hour or two.
@@nulltheworm I mean, yes it exists on a spectrum, but that doesn't make the term any less useful. Most people have a general idea of what a Roguelike or Roguelite means and unlike MMO, it hasn't become inflated like the "RPG" term either.
Roguelike usually refers to the game's progression and how you have to do "multiple runs" in in order to progress either your character, the plot or both. The significant difference between Roguelike and Roguelite is whether or not powerups, upgrades skills or perks carry over from run to run. FTL is a great example of a "Roguelike" whereas Hades is a great example of a "Roguelite". I will admit that perhaps me using the term gameplay loop was not the correct one, as the core gameplay can varry a lot, however it definitely is a definition of how the progression works. Just like with Metroidvania, it can give you a good idea of the game's structure. On top of that, Roguelikes usually has to have some form of procedural generation or RNG. I can't think of any of the top of my head that doesn't.
Tldr: The term Roguelike/Roguelite gives you a good idea of the game's structure and progression, whereas MMO and RPG certainly does not. It's all about "runs" and how every run is different in some way or another.
@@Nickulator See, you've used words and phrases like "general idea" and "as inflated as" to give enough way to prove me correct. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful to you. Just to say, my initial point stands well enough.
Anyway, that "roguelike" as a rough genre isn't as bad as the MMO landscape is irrelevant to me. It's a different genre, a different history, and a different player base. Of course the variance in each genre will not map directly onto one another. The subgenres tend to get categorized more easily in one than the other, for this reason.
But, it's been fun. Cheers, Nickulator.
MMO is just a shared world, if it is not a shared world then it's not an MMO.
This is why World of Warcraft after shading is not really an MMO anymore.
Oh, and it also needs to be able to have thousands of people in that shared world.
MMO is as its name suggests, massively multiplayer online. its gotta be a multiplayer experience in order for it to be an MMO. POE or Diablo aren't necessarily multiplayer. so they're not MMOs. whereas WOW Requires a Group to join a battle ground or a Raid or dungeon and thats why it is an MMO. simple as that !
25:50 what open world bosses need is a player count scaling that considers the level of the highest player. make it challanging to solo it but don't make it impossible. but add croud mechanics to the boss that makes that not everybody can focus on the boss without that the party gets wiped. and once the boss get's damaged the dificulty only rised the more people join the combat and never goes down except when the boss gets resetted by leaving. make the region around the boss an open PVP field that seperated players by guild. so if one guild is almost killing the boss and another guild is attacking, then you can have a guild war fight while the boss reacts to the new group in some way like spawning a hord of mobs that protect him. make it so that when the guild that wins and kills the boss get's rewarded for killing the other guild and the boss.
we are so far in the AI tech that it would be possible to have the boss react to the casses that attack and what players use to exploid the boss mechanics. why doesn't have any mmo an ai that makes the boss harder but possible while trying to break the meta play on a dynamic basis. have it so that the ai is taking into account how many times each player already did the fight and how often they won or lost and bias the aggro of the boss a bit in that way under the name of "it feels danger from that person" or something similar.
For me, an MMO is three things: forced shared environment for a _not_ insignificant part of content, persistence (the world continues and things happen when you're not there), and always online.
The idea you need to have to group of any size to be an MMO forgets that the first game to receive the moniker, Ultima Online, had 100% soloable content. There was nothing originally in UO that a player could not manage on their own.
The idea that content has to be either instanced or easy is defeated by the original Everquest experience. Bosses in that game could two-shot your tank in a few seconds and your Clerics' heal that was absolutely required in order to keep up with the damage (Complete Heal) took 10 seconds to get off. That was not easy to manage. You'd have to have 10 clerics lined up, each ending a CH every second. And end-game bosses in Everquest were multi-raid, meaning you needed multiple raid parties just to hope to succeed. The hardest part was getting a guild big enough and cohesive enough to take on the content. I think there does exist a dichotomy between having instanced content and _widely-accessible_ content. Instances made it so the business could better control how content is handled by the players, allowing for a flexible raid of 10 to 40 players to all have the same basic experience.
I miss Dark Age of Camelot, you can walk into any dungeon in the world no matter what level, it was not instanced and was fun getting into some random group of people and kill stuff
I miss it too granted PvP was pretty one sided due to balance issues when I played.
ESO has dungeons like that called Public dungeons where it's essentially a walk in dungeon
am so happy to have stumbled across ffxiv through asmon the new patch just released and the amount of FUN (and optional) content is just so insane. You notice everywhere u go the development team actually cares about the game and they actually play their own game. Sure there are small annoying things but thats acceptable. So glad i moved on from WoW but i don't regret anything :p
as a person In my mind, an MMO is just a game In my mind
I burned out on it in the original re-release. Did everything up to part 1 and 2 coil with a fun guild. After the excitement wore off we all went out separate ways. Even with new patches I can ot seem to get that same feeling of fun back. More often than not everytime I have gone back I end up just playing the game solo for story without much care for anything else. Flying still is horrible primarily because of the handicap on development because they refuse to let the console go. The game will never develop beyond what it is so long as they can only produce content that the PS5 can handle, they did finally let go of the PS4 support but it was far too late to matter. I loved the series but XIV just "sits on the shelf" far more than I can stand playing it now. Take for example the news of these updates... no feelings anymore, I don't even click on the updates from Happy anymore so I think I am just done with anything XIV related at this point, after all, I primarily played it for the nostalgia of the older series that Yoshi creatively threw in there. Once yhey started doing nonsense like Nier.... nope, I'm out, didn't care about that game so I have np interest in playing XIV for content based around it. I was mainly down for everything from 1-9, every release after that in the series was just a disappointment.
@@DeeFourCee Yes of course it is opinion. As for hardware limitation? Ever asked yourself why the game doesn't feel like an open world environment but rather a series of 'connected' loading zones? Thank console hardware for that. This is what I meant by flying being garbage outside of the fact that once you have it unlocked for a zone it becomes virtually useless outside of using it to gather materials. Nier was NOT Final Fantasy and such does not belong in XIV, again my opinion but it breaks the nostalgia. I do not foresee a return to the game as I did so once again in this last shadow one with the same lack of feeling. Everytime I came back I bounced around FCs hoping to find that group feeling but it just is not there. The game itself is a great solo player experience but like I said once the story is done... so is the game. The coolest experience I had which was unique was watching the evolution of Mor Dhona in real time (via patches). I still remember first visiting that place with just a few tents and npcs, even the walls surrounding the place did not exist. We would spend a lot of time there running other people through Titan runs before they finally figured out how to correct for the time delays in different internet connections. Drunken Titan runs were the best. For all of my love for this series, the first version of XIV they released was the first and only time I actually broke the game disc in half and tossed it in the trash so Yoshi did a good job at salvaging it into something worthwhile. I just feel that it has run its course for me personally and now I'm just waiting on the next good one to be released. That first stage of a great MMORPG is just the best, no overblown skillsets, challenge is on par for nearly everyone, gear isn't scaled all over the place... it was simplistic but challenging with a great group of people. You do you for sure, have fun with it but I do not expect it to maintain on the top all that long as they have run out of nostalgia from the actual series to run on, it was inevitable as there were only so many good games in the series. As for 10, what ruined that for me was removing the ability to traverse a world map looking for secrets like every one of its predecessors and once again it all came down to console hardware limits. Imagine how much cooler 12 would have been if it gave you more of that open world feeling rather than going from one loading zone to the next?
@@DeeFourCee I think it has more to do with it than you are giving it credit for. Most of the excitement in the earlier patches came from "What new esper/eidolon will we see next"... "Will we get Shiva or Leviathan? What about Fenrir?".... "Oooh, dude there's a raid fight involving Alexander"... "Wait... we finally get to see more moogles...?".... "Wth do you mean there is a moogle King??" "...dude we get to go to the floating continents from FFIII, sweeet!"... everything was nostalgia man even down to modification of our personal chocobos or even the fact that we _had_ personal chocobos, let alone battle with them against monsters.
As for 16 I am intrigued but the problem I see right now is... yaaay it's Devil May Cry 7 with a Final Fantasy skin. Not to mention that every FF ever worth anything gave you *playable* party members... Not this one! So yeah, I'm not all that excited for Square to be abusing their legendary series' name just to try to scrape more profit due to fear of actually creating a new IP. From the looks of it, 16 should have just been it's own stand alone title to hopefully end up as a new flourishing series buuut nope, same old abuse of the Final Fantasy namesake purely for profit.
About exploration I think what's most important is to find worth in exploring the world. Just filling out a checkbox for an achievement will never worth most players time. This is why you can have a gigantic open world, like ArcheAge, but nobody cared for explartion since there was no point, you didn't get anything worthwhile (except for naval stuff).
For me the best exploration experience came from two games. Guild Wars 2 and Genshin Impact. GI is a single player game, so it's a bit different, but still a good example.
In GW2 no matter where you start to go, you wil allways find something new to do. Here you can complete a world mission, then join in for a group event, then spot a gathering node, while also finding a cave that leads you to an underground science facility to complete a jumping puzzle and a vista. Suddenly 3 hours and 4 zones later the only question you have suddenly is what the heck did I wanted to do originally. There's never a dull moment even when exploring low level zones, due to level scaling. The same can be said about Genshin Impct, just without the multiplayer stuff.
The players are cosntantly getting impulses, constantly getting objectives to fulfill and of course getting rewards after doing them. It makes the world fell alive, and in turn by interacting and affecting the world you also feel like part of the world. This is what makes a good exploration experience in my mind.
i would say mmo games are criterias like "Online with more people", "QUESTS are given out" "can go past the given limit of the main goal - walking along the mountainsides, go destroy some chest randomly places etc - "
Quests and online with others being the main points for me.
Scaling per player on Open World Bosses
- Your damage is directly reduced by a % based on the number of players, based on the damage you do (Yes this would be dynamic), no the player would not see their damage reduced, but the damage the monster takes would change
- Monster damage directly scales on the amount of healing going off in the area, upto a cap, Yes. That means that the monster would read the amount of healing happening (actual healing, overhealing isn't registered) and increase its damage accordingly (again, upto a cap so its not 1shotting)
- Crowd Control, As the number of players increase the amount of players that can be affected by Crowd Control increases. These stuns are fairly short and temporary, but happen fairly often and the system has dynamic cooldown on the individual player to keep them repeatedly stunned too often. Basically this will have the effect of essentially temporarily removing players from the battle, and would rotate between players to prevent it being a bad experience for any one player.
- Dynamic Adds, the more players there are, the more and potentially stronger Adds the boss spawns.
Basically, you could bring 10 people to the 10 people Boss Fight and it will be a fair challenge for 10 people
or you can bring 100 people to the 10 people Boss Fight, and the challenge will dynamically scale into an absolutely EPIC RAID LEVEL EVENT, with increased Loot
Hell, if enough people show up, the game should even announce to the entire server that about the accomplishment.
For me MMO means there is only a single instance (world) where every player can interact with every other player - by this definition my first real MMO I remember was Project Entropia
Asmongold... getting closer and closer to just accepting P2W /s
Battle Passes, microtransactions, pay for convenience, pay for cosmetics... all of this should/used to be ingame content you purchase when you buy the game. These are all PURE ARTIFICIAL mechanisms to extract more and more money.
Fuck them all.
Pretty sure he was cool with it long ago. Nobody that actually hates P2W or microtransactions is paying for them. Not even for UA-cam content.
Mmo rpg. Mmo doesn't mean what it used to, nor does rpg. FOMO has lots of different levels.
Ever since I started playing osrs few weeks ago, my view of MMORPG has changed from video games to interactive social media
What ruins the "exploration" and game in general are all the easy/lazy modes such as assisted navigation, built in maps with all sorts of information, on screen visual assists like shining objects to pick up. Things should be discovered by the gamer and not the opposite, the game should not show you how to discover things.
FFXI had the world boss figured out back in the early 2000's. It was a good system, that was protected from griefing and using too many people. Basically, you had to farm/craft a "pop" item that you traded to a certain spot to spawn the boss. Only the player and his/her group that popped the boss had claim. No one without claim could interact with the boss whatsoever, unless your group wiped. So you were limited to a normal alliance size of three parties to take them down, with no outside interference. The only way to allow other people to be involved, was to use the "call for help" combat option, but this made you forfeit all loot and xp for doing so.
People played WoW as a single player game because Blizzard made it so you could progress rather easily solo. You could not progress easily as a solo player in DAOC or EQ. TRUE MMOs!
@@nakano15 Correct, forgot about FXI, maybe because it was actually unplayable as a solo player, lol.
DAOC and EQ you could play solo, but it was slow. FFXI was straight torture as a solo player, and damn near impossible at early levels unless you really enjoyed that sort of punishment.
True MMOs that barely have any pop because they don't cater to solo PvE players who are the vast majority of players.
Great argument.
lets get back to the days when it was called MMORPG and not just Massive Multiplayer Online.. The RPG is an important aspect...
The problem with that is there's more than RPG games that are MMOs. Planetside are an MMO FPS, WWII Online is an MMO Combined Arms Sim, Aces High is an MMO WWII Flight Sim. I think RPGs were so heavily featured because that was much lighter load on the server for early days of tech, and lag wasn't such a big issue with tab targeting.
I feel MMO should be a label for games with a large, persistent open world, with massive amounts of players occupying it at the same time.
theres a big difference between mmo and mmorpg that largely get overlooked
I think an MMO is a game with over 500 people and an open seemless world with the ability to allow the whole server into 1 zone/instance. The server might lag or crash but the ability to do that is there and that is all that matters. New World is an example of this. I think we need a new term LLO. Large lobby online game. Lost Ark would be considered this kind of game.
Destiny just simply called itself a shared world looter shooter for the longest time, which fit the description pretty well.
Exploration in my mind is, for example, having treasure chests give damn good rewards, but spawning randomly in the world. I still remember when I got Lord Alexander's Battle Axe in vanilla.
Also an extensive crafting system with mining nodes spawning randomly across the world. Some being insanely rare and giving better rewards.
Honestly anything that makes you go out into the world.
Turns out, when you replace every bit of atmosphere with convenience, you end up with shitty games. Thought we learned that 15 years ago when Wrath released.
I started out on Alliance, and eventually was persuaded to switch to horde. Seeing the clip of Iron Forge brings back nostalgia, I miss iron forge so much
I played for a long time and I wouldn't call Destiny an mmo, it's more like a multiplayer looter shooter, you never have more than 6 people working together at any point other than during public events but, those aren't really much more.
Quite so, for me the "massive" part IS the max number of players you can have interacting on the same screen before server or client framerate drops below 30 or so. Guild Wars permit 100 players per town/zone or so, and WoW probably permits a great deal more, but FPS might drop under 30 before that is reached. World PvP might be designed for 128 players like Planetside 2, Battlefield 2142 or Arma 3, but framerate probably drops uncomfortably low if they all moved within 100 meters of each other. PvE on the other hand only requires 32+ players in big raids or similar situations, or settle for 16 to 32 players or so. Personally I prefer higher fidelity gameplay mechanics over massive player counts, so no big loss for me.
What makes a MMO it's in the acronym. Massive Multiplayer Online
What makes a classic or true MMO RPG is that it needs to be both a good Massively Multiplayer Online Game, and also a good RPG.
Most newer games could be considered MMOs, you could make the argument that even Among Us is an MMO... if you're feeling generous about how you define "massive". Really what sets most "true mmos" apart these days is being really old, terrible graphics and boring af combat.
Glad someone finally said it.
I think it's this: There's a boss in the open world that requeires A LOT of ppl to kill it? Yes = MMO / No = Any other thing.
I just like to be able to see other people doing their thing in the same digital world that I play. It doesn't have to be forced to group with them- I just like to have the option to do so, while being able to see them even if I don't group with them. Also, just having a city hub or something, doesn't cut it for me. I'd rather have my mobs stolen than be essentially alone in a multiplayer game.
Themepark as defined by Yoshi P is something for everybody like FFXIV is designed. Sandbox is something like Archeage, Atlas, Ark. a hybrid of the two would be Chimeraland, possibly Ashes of Creation, DAOC, Camelot Unchained.
for me the biggest problem with mmo there is to much contact with other player but there isn't any real competition aspect.
A lot of games used to only be able to support 25 to 50 players. An mmo back then used to do 500 or more at a stress limit for tech mind the fact that when a lot ram sticks in early 2000 had only a megabyte ram sticks and not even gigabyte sticks like today 2022. Our tech has advanced enough to support both large player lobbies and larger maps that could be considered openworld. if the player character is set to move at a certain speed while maintaining a fast animation to make it seem like you are in a larger map when it may be very much a medium sized map or smaller.
The one thing that ruined MMO is the answers.
All the BIS, WIKIS, how to guides etc
Takes the magic of the unknown that was the early days of vanilla wow.
All these years later, I still remember crossing into Red Ridge for the first time, not knowing what I would find.
People, particularly older players who are chasing the dragon, don't have the time or mindset for a true MMO. We're too busy, our time is too valuable.
"We all lift together" is such a good song.
Lmao when he goes off talking about fomo... says the guy with 700 mounts and gets glad the last month of the season for the rewards.
I like how when naming and showing different classic MMOs he says "EVE" and its just an excel spreadsheet. True that o7
To me a MMO or MMORPG;
1. It requires an internet connection.
2. It requires you to be connected to the game client and server at all time.
3. It doesn't have a single player mode.
4. It has no lobby.
5. It is normally made of a very large open world with a varying degree in size of instances.
6. It use to have a monthly subscription, now most have transition toward creating intentional inconveniences which are resolved by buying a monthly pass and microtransaction.
7. It has a sort of upgrading or crafting system sometimes more than one. It will require hundreds maybe thousand of hours grinding for materials, or an insanely large amount of in-game currency to buy the resources needed through the in-game auction house.
8. It is meant to last for years and is inevitably grindy. Most if not all will often sell XP boost or a way to expedite or buy resources to mitigate the grind by spending real life money.
9. It has a forgettable story and the lore rarely, if ever, explains why; as the "chosen one", everyone in the world is a threat to you, even the City guard lol. Or why are there thousand of other "chosen one" running around the city?
10. Its content or at least the bulk of it, has been design to be played in a group, though many have been friendlier to solo players over the years.
Always thought it would be cool to experiment with actual real people employed by the company, acting as the bosses and other NPC’s, situation depending.
Honestly I'm very happy with the gaming space in 2022 I'm able to play so many different types of games with people.
There is an actual term that they use for games like PoE. "MMO-lite"
This is the same question as "what's your favorite rock music?"
Times surely changed.
I'm just trying to be a yordle in the riot mmo
The fact that some people will look up the optimal way to get to each location, shouldn't mean exploration should be ignored, people are always gonna ruin experiences for themselves, some people look up dungeons before they've even run them, PoE builds before they've even played, bosses in any game before they've even tried them
The main thing that I hate about "FOMO" systems is looking at a games wiki, finding some item that I think looks cool as fuck, and finding out it was only available to acquire during a one-month event two years ago.
I started playing EverQuest back in 1999... been using the term "MMO" to refer to MMORPG's and will forever call them "MMO's" for short. If I ever say "MMO" I mean MMORPG. WoW, Lineage 2, ESO, etc... In our hearts, we know.
While I agree that Destiny isnt an MMO (there is nothing massively multiplayer in it), I do think Bellular undersold how close it is to being one. Its not just a game with a social space and gear score. It has raids, dungeons, public events, weekly rituals, guilds, player titles, and weapon crafting. And with the new expansion, its getting in game LFG along with Paragon ranks and accommodations to see how experienced players are and to find sherpas for end game content. Its sooo close to being an MMO, but it just needs to overhaul its "open world" patrol zones to get there.
Honestly the reason I think people have called Destiny an MMO for so long, even before it was so close to being one, is because Destiny was a console only game for the first 3 years of it's existence. Console players dont really know what MMOs are. And its even more annoying when people think that saying its not an MMO is an insult.
We've gotten to the point when some people don't care about the MMO anymore.
The excitement of meeting new people and playing with them, it's not new anymore because we're all connected somehow through different platforms.
Was wondering why Tibia wasn't mentioned about old school mmorpg but then you see a clip at 8:28 showing the struggle of going to kill a cyclops
to me an mmo is basically a virtual reality. It's a place where there is an auction house, corrupt systems that people abuse, where there are massive social hubs, people dueling, doing stupid shit, and where you do content that is meant to be done in groups, is actually done in groups. But most importantly, people just have fun
Just want to chip in, an MMO is one server with all players on it, no loading screens. You can run into anyone that is connected to that server at any time because they are moving through the world.
In Destiny FOMO goes beyond cosmetics. They lock game changing PvP items behind FOMO. It's why I quit
I love MMOs and I love playing with other people. But I spend like %90 of my time in MMOs solo. The games really have to push me to group despite actually enjoying group content. If I can do something on my own without having to track people down. I'm going to do it by myself 9 times out of 10.
issue is RPG was synonymous with MMO and developers want to slap MMO on everything and forget its roots
"remember me to watch that", I smiled.
5:00 Asmongold mom a savage 🤣
Asmongold. The problem with FOMO isn't that people can't control themselves. The problem is that companies can't control themselves. So Blizzard keeps removing cosmetic after cosmetic in a desperate attempt to make players come back (to get that cosmetic before it is removed). Examples: MoP CM set, WoD CM weapons, Legion Mage Tower skins, BFA Brutosaur, etc. In the case of Gladiator mounts, etc, I know I will never put the effort and time to get that. But Mage Tower was piss easy. I got the skin for Holy Paladin, playing a healer for the first time in my life (playing since Vanilla).There was no prestige there. It was simply a tactic to get people to play the current expansion. And I thought "sure, they will add new cool weapons and I will forget about the class skins that I couldn't get due to IRL circumstances". No. Every time I see a druid with the Mage Tower feral skin I regret not having had the time to get it. I want it so bad and I know I'm never gonna have it. And they can release better looking skins for feral and it won't change, because they will be different and the fun of playing this game for me is having multiple different cool skins that I can switch between and use them to immerse myself in different self-made scenarios.
one thing that wasnt thematized was, that mmos usually have an ingame economy of items and currency, which is driven by the players. that is the difference, why i would call poe and warframe an mmo, but not monster hunter.
Currently more and more people actually question if Lost Ark is actually a MMO. Mostly the players that play it a lot and totally forgets that they play with other people
Anything online with tons of players is classified as a massively multiplayer online (MMO) game. MMORPG however is specifically the WoW/final fantasy style genre.
I’d say the only thing holding destiny back from being a full blown mmorpg is the player count allowed per activity and instance. I think this is even more evident when you look at the additions coming in lightfall.
Throne and Liberety will be the first MMO that will feel like an oldskool MMO. Its basicly Aion 2
once MMO is actually massive, but there is a technological limitation. like internet speed, pc specs, location and time to play. so in order to stabilize the server they made "channels".
I am a bit curious then. Would a shooter game with map sizes able to host more than 40 people at a time be classified as an MMO?
If not, why would a game which is hub based, without an open world, with instance or raid content limited to 40 people at a time, be classified as an MMO?
In most cases, these things play out like a MOBA with extra steps.
Kind of like PlanetSide 2 perhaps? It definitely doesn't feel like an MMO to me, but that may be because I tend to relate the concept of MMO to games like WoW or Runescape, even though PlanetSide is word for word a massively multiplayer online game just like most games nowadays.
@Joseph Salley Rather than being technical, my concern is that developers will stick the tag of "MMO" these days to anything in order to justify selling a product of lower quality (in terms of graphics, storyline, depth etc) compared to that of a single player, because HEY, it is an MMO.
In the past you could "forgive" these things because the MMO would allow you to interact with other people on a massive scale, which was a big thing. However, if you now take away this aspect, all you are left with is a game with multiplayer mode, that is of far less quality than its peers, and it also a live service model. As a consumer, I dont find this acceptable.
@@chanapkis45 As long as you can interact with people on a massive scale then yes it can be classified as an MMO. Check my reply below for my full concerns on the topic which I think we should all partially have :P
@Joseph Salley I agree with you on that point. I am just being sceptical and somewhat gutted on occasions, because regardless of the scrutiny that comes after the release, we have not seen much improvement with any of the current and latter tittles. If anything, perhaps the contrary. Although slightly out of topic, a certain "immortal" example seems to hold very well against criticism and scrutiny. It also has many tags.
I am unsure why devs havent tried the most obvious thing regarding players exploring. When do players REALLY enjoy exploring the most? When they feel like they are somewhere they are not supposed to be yet, or at all. Why dont devs take advantage of that concept and try to intentionally give players that feeling of "I dont think I am supposed to be here."? The only time I have seen this was in old MMORPG's where you could explore into higher level areas if you could sneak around enemies. Sadly this was inadvertent and was removed in most modern MMORPG's.
I think this is partially to explain for lowering playerbase of traditional MMORPGs, are most games are somewhat MMOs now, and this means online play market is splitting in a similar manner to people's taste in game loops
Massive Multiplayer Online. Any game that is massive, it has multiplayer features and requires an online connection technically counts as an mmo. Genshin being one.
You only need 3 things to be a good MMO nowadays
1) Raids
2) Shadows
3) Legends
best definition: open world game with a server that never closes or wipes until the game's death (server must allow 1000 concurrent players)
Queuing up with a mandatory 4 players to beat a boss would not make PoE an MMO, that would just make it a multiplayer ARPG experience, nothing about 4 players says "massive" that's like calling a 4 player split screen experience massively multiplayer. Which sounds ludicrous.
For something to qualify as an MMO the majority of the experience has to be "massively multiplayer" and of course online. This is usually achieved by having an open world with 100s to 1000s of players running around interacting with one another in real time.
ESO and GW2 were the two closest to getting exploration perfect!
I would consider old MUDs as MMOs as well. Things have changed so much...
If there is player interaction, like trading, it can be an MMO, without that, just Multiplayer or simply Online Game
I believe that sometimes exploration in video games just come naturally from a good story and excellent map, an example would be GTA San Andreas in my opinion (Lol not even an MMO). The game had so many mechanics and a great story and map, but because these two things meshed incredibly well, it was fun to drive around and discover places in the game, even if some of them were completely empty. It was so great that it created myths back in the day and people were so pumped to uncover them, it was great.
hell yea - Tibia; no AH, you just shout in the street until someone has what you want to sell
When I see MMO now I assumed it means, "We've balanced progression around the assumption you don't want to play any other video game."
Bellular earned my respect by putting some Tibia Clips in the video
I do love war frame’s development and gameplay, no click and wait, actually dodging and items aren’t just stats they have different functions(projectile size, travel distance, combos) just feels different then a WOW clone
As long as internet isnt top tier EVERYWHERE, there will never be a true mmorpg
Also most mobiles worth anything are like Diablo.
The open world mobs take is something I do t agree with because FFXI figured it out 20 years ago.
Firat mobs are by claimed basis, and sometimes require items to pop them. Lower leveled open world mobs drop either gear or crafts and have really rare drop mechanics which not only give value to the pieces but also make smaller parties or solos more worthwhile because more people means the likelihood of getting an ultra rare item (sometimes untradable) is less likely. In the higher or max levels then most open world bosses drop crafting materials which require others to unlock or make the said item.
This alone gives players reasons to work together, build friendships, and estaish a social network to get these things done.
In that sense they also had instanced content for relics but it wasn't necessarily best in slot depending on the build you were going for.
The answer to the question of what is an MMO is simpler than ever. Though many of us are used to calling MMORPGs "MMOs" those two terms are significantly different as they represent different genres of games. What Bellular calls an "old MMO" is what would be classified as MMORPG, whilst every other game that has features like global server simply is called an MMO. For example Destiny is an MMO fps game, POE is an action rpg with MMO elements and Warframe is an action rpg tps with MMO elements.
Good dunk at the end, some fresh air in this sea of weakness