What It Means to Act as if You Believe in God | Jordan Peterson & Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубліковано 29 жов 2024
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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Season 4 Episode 8: Jonathan Pageau: • The Perfect Mode of Be...
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“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.” - GK Chesterton
Always this.
These kinds of quotes surprise me, but remind me that the intellectual realm has been allowed to form a boundary. Meanwhile, Washington Gladden inspired the Social Gospel Movement in his support of pro-labor and pro-Afro-Am actions, and his writings. Earlier still, George Fox and the Quaker-Friends made intriguing strides, forming the basis for the work of T Clarkson. Clarkson became the pioneering social movement activist, supported by the Quakers and a range of other participants.
@@robinhoodstfrancis This comment reads like it was written by an AI. What exactly are you trying to say?
@@wierdpocket AI. Yeah, I guess you know what a human being can really do now, for Jesus. I´m no church-bred doctrine-talker. I´m a free-range spiritual seeker who reclaimed true Jesus. AI. Yeah, so that´s how you perceive my thoughts here. So, how you perceive yourself would be....XYZ.
So, the quote is Chesterton saying that there aren´t any real Christians. When did he operate? I´m thinking Charlie Chaplin´s days after he left the UK in the 1910s.
Off the cuff, I know that Robert Owen was influenced by a Christian doctor T Percival to start pro-labor business, that combined with the UK anti-slavery movement that I started to refer to and led to the founding of the co-op biz movement in Rochdale.
FD Maurice had started his kind of "Christian socialism" around that time that also converged with co-ops. A little later, I believe, came the couple who is credited with the settlement house movement.
That´s just the UK. Washington Gladden in the US started the pro-labor, pro-poor, pro-Afro-Am Social Gospel movement that influenced FD Roosevelt, actually. Eleanor participated in Jane Addams´ pro-poor Hull House project that she got from the UK pro-poor settlement houses.
That extends to today. As someone who started as an interfaith seeker, I picked up a book by Huston Smith, then Alan Watts, and went to a Zen Temple before I ever approached Christianity much at all.
I guess I´d say Chesterton would have been more correct to say, "The Christian ideal has been widely forgotten in institutional circles, but pulled far out by profiteers and other ambitious types.
Difficult? People who seek show how integrity resurges. That´s what spiritual experience is for. Even William Wilberforce had that experience as limited as it was in his experience in Parliament for abolition. There is beauty in how George Fox helped lead the founding of the Quaker-Friends, and is credited with some fifty plus others as co-founders. How their legacy led to anti-slavery messages that converged with Anglican dissident T Clarkson.
William James´ book Varieties of Religious Experience took Christian Science seriously, calling testimonies from it, and maybe offshoots, "mind-cure." Yet, today we have interfaith practice in Buddhist meditation, yoga, tai chi, and more that all promise more integrity in spiritual experiences and appreciating Jesus without becoming indoctrinated or trapped in institutional distraction.
Physicist Fritjof Capra started by meditating that led him to write Tao of Physics.
Now, if that´s too AI for you, then I guess you´ll have to find another more user-friendly human being.
@@robinhoodstfrancis I really wasn't trying to be snide, I literally couldn't parse out what you were trying to say. I apologize if that came off as rude. Peace to you.
My Dad was a pastor but he was truly motivated for his own ego, not the glory of God. I was exposed to so many Christians that were not transformed because they did not let that process take place. It caused so much doubt and pain in my life I almost closed my life off from God completely. Like Jordan said, I also lived like God existed and it was through that process and constantly pursuing truth that I’ve been transformed. Now my life is filled with a combination of joy, gratitude, and sadness/suffering. Because when you understand the depths of love God has for you you are also exposed to the depths of sin and death. It’s in this combination of polar realities that God can be found and it is sweeter and more fulfilling then honey.
Can you tell me what it means to live as if God existed?
@@rockysage7760 I live as God exists and I what I mean by that is that I live the way Christ would want me to live by his example. I often don't do as I want to do but I do as Christ showed me how he did it and want me to do and that is not always easy at all. I do that even though I don't know if Christ exists. Christians therefore do not think that I am a real Christian. I don't go to Church and I even stopped praying. There are Christians that go to church and even if they don't live The Life, they are seen as Christians and I am not.
@@AnnemieM that's really interesting because I've always found Christ's teachings to be incredibly valuable for us. But I'm not the kind of person who goes to Church either.. I don't even believe in gods. So we are kindoff similar you and I.
@@rockysage7760 hey, sorry it took me awhile to respond. Honestly, I don’t think I’m qualified to tell you but I’ll tell you what it means to me. I’ve heard wisdoms starts with the fear of God. To me this has always meant dealing with his judgment. It can be really hard to get passed that part as a believer. Because honestly we all sin. We all make mistakes. Everyday. Sometimes we don’t feel worthy. Let go of shame because shame is not from God. God wants you to be free. (Not all Christians are free just to be clear.) when Jordan Peterson says clean your room he is telling you to take care of your environment. When you do that you learn to be grateful for it (Praising God) and when you are grateful you care and you learn that you can influence your environment for the better. FOR EVERYONE. (Turn the other cheek if necessary.) Monitor your sleep. If you can’t quiet your mind you have thinking to do. Something you need to get in order. Nothing better then a clear mind (don’t lie) when you go to sleep. Stand up for injustice (tell the truth). We all fall short of the glory of God. And that’s the point. You need to give it your all and you still will not be good enough. But the cool thing about life is that you can try again in the morning. Gods love is renewed every morning.
@@AnnemieM There probably was a historical figure like Christ during that time period. I'm pretty sure he didn't do a lot of the stuff they tell you he did in the stories though.
"to act as if God exists is first of all to worship" YES!
God has lined out a very specific set of standards that he wants his people to do...these standards also separate God's people from the rest of the world.Believing in God Is not worship.Like Paul said "even the Demons believe and yet shudder...". Demons
@@webbit1518 "to act as if God exists"is what I wrote, not "believing in God" . I was quoting a comment Jonathan Pageau makes in response to Jordan Peterson saying he doesn't believe in God but he behaves as if God exists.
An all powerful being that needs reinforcement from me, is no god - worship is asking santa for presents
@@AldousHuxleysCat He doesn’t “need” worship, believers worship because we desire to love and praise God. We choose to worship out of our own incentive to be in the presence of other believers who wish to dwell on God as well
@@HobbitLord1248 please, it demands worship, it's sad how needed an all powerful being is. Yes I get it, you need reinforcement of your fantasy from others caught up in it. It's why there are huge sporting stadiums
How do you know someone is not transformed? I'm always reminded of the time I was concerned at someone's behaviour in church and I was told, 'Imagine how they were before they were saved'. Then I remembered how I was. We are all a work in progress.
There's also something somewhat prideful in saying people aren't transformed. It automatically puts you on a higher place over the other person when you make that judgement. How do you know you're that much better than someone you claim isn't transformed?
@@emmagrace6396 I believe what Dr. Peterson is implying is that the degree of transformation is not sufficiently equal to the gravity of actually believing that God (specifically the Christian God) is real, and has communicated His will and plan for mankind, and has made the way to redemption open from His end. You can notice objectively and empirically that a person has improved and moved from something low to something higher and still recognize that the percent of that transformation is as a single raindrop in a lake. it is not required that a person is higher, more skilled, more knowledgeable, or in any way better to be able to serve as a judge. Olympic judges are not themselves Olympians, umpires and referees do not train their muscles to play the game but their perspectives to measure it. An individual cannot properly judge themselves “ 𝑫𝒐𝒏'𝒕 𝒕𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏 𝒂𝒍𝒐𝒏𝒆, 𝒊𝒕 𝒐𝒏𝒍𝒚 𝒆𝒎𝒃𝒆𝒅𝒔 𝒚𝒐𝒖𝒓 𝒆𝒓𝒓𝒐𝒓𝒔.”
If we truly believed that God was actually real down to the core of our beings; we would either be raised to the precipice of our potential or, unable to achieve that, be reduced to a sniveling puddle.
@@davidbizzanelli7803 First, works do not lead to salvation, only by faith in the work of Jesus on the cross are we justified. Second, Peterson wants evidence of change and you are correct that some change is demonstrable (self effort) and can be evidence to other people. After all, the pharisees could put on quite a show when tithing. But Jesus knows the heart. Third, we don't all start at the same point or progress in a straight line. This is why Jesus gives so much grace (infinite grace). A heroin addict may be saved for years before they conquer that addiction while I may be battling a prideful nature or a tendency to be crude. I cannot compare their struggle to mine.
Exactly, I came here to ask the same thing. Holiness can be much more humble, and appear much more mundane, than people might expect.
@@clairet5636 Yes- It is man who looks on the outside but Jesus knows your heart. Which is both reassuring and terrifying (to me) at the same time!
Good conversation....I didn’t think God existed. Then at a rock bottom place in my life I desperately cried out to “Him”...(if there was a “Him”). I pleaded for Him to prove to me He existed. If He didn’t answer, I decided I had no reason to live and would soon take my own life. And oh my goodness....He DID show up!! He set me free. I was overwhelmed by His love. That was the beginning of a long journey to understand how Christ came to set the captive free. It is possible to live free in the midst of chaos and pain! Ask for Him to fill you with Holy Spirit and get baptized.
2 Timothy 2:26....the enemy has blinded their eyes so they can’t see.
Right on. When I'm talking to agnostics or atheists who are nonetheless 'curious', I don't usually try to 'convince' them, but I do encourage them to ask God to show Themselves to them, and to ask 'As If' God was real.
Praise god. He cannot use a man who is prideful - he works through us more as we are more receptive when we fall to our knees and humble ourselves . Continue in faith
(Phrygia) | ancient district, Turkey | Britannica.
Jen, I am curious about the experience you had. In what way did God reveal himself to you? Thank you.
Tell us what you experienced regarding Him showing up.
“Be be doers of the word, not hearers only” James 1:22
Amen
The letter of James is my favorite non-gospel book of the Bible.
Here is the Original Semitic Text. HERE IS THE REAL SAVIOR
YaH The Heavenly FATHER HIMSELF was Who they Crucified for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic Scroll:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moses wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
@@Praise___YaH That literally had nothing to do with the verse quoted above.
Amen
I climb trees for a living. A lot of people consider it to be a very risky job. As many people die doing this profession. But Up there at around 80 ft I start getting real close to God and I start acting as if he exists. I think that's the wisdom of putting yourself in the path of danger. It makes it easier to start acting as if he exists, when death is so close at hand.
What job requires that? Tree surgeon?
AAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEENNNN
Because "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord'..."
Exactly! Jonathan's answer was wrong. The majority of those who claim to be Christians and are not transformed are not truly regenerated. And if Jonathan understood this he would be able to make a strong case to help people like Jordan Peterson differentiate between faults Believers and True Believers
Can you expand on this?
@@Built_By_Bacon Are you asking me or James?
@@MrKneeV you, “not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord.’ I haven’t heard that statement
@@Built_By_Bacon we are called to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. And in jude it says that unbelievers have crept in among us. Jesus says many who call him lord never actually new him. Titus 1:16 they claim to know God but they did not him by what they do. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit do anything good.
I wasn't a Christian during college and I cannot tell you how many so called 'Christians' I saw that were living the same kind of life as I was or even worse.
because people use imagery and Jesus as a good luck charm in hopes to gain something for nothing.Gods standards do not work that way.
The older I get, the more merciful I hope God is.
So
Of course, being Christian doesn't mean that you are better than any other else, but means that you understand and accept how bad and sinful you are and know that your soul will be saved not because you did enough good deeds but because our merciful God sacrificed to offer you the salvation. Than you try to build a relationship with this God. And as stronger this relationship gets, you get transformed. And this isn't something that happens in one night! Sometimes people go through hell in order to ripp off their ego and allow God to take its place, so the Holy Spirit will transform them.So the Christians you knew, doesn't mean that because are called Christians, were better than you, or even as good as you. On the opposite, if we Christans don't have a profound and honest relationship with God, can be very arrogant and dangerous! But on the other hand, you can find Christians that have build such a great and deep relationship with God, that their good deeds, which are result of this relationship with God, are beyond of what a simple human being can do!
That doesn't mean that they were not Christian. It means that they are immature which in many ways we all are.
"Why does the world seem so unchanged?" Absolutely a wonderful statement and I think it's the reason who Christianity necessarily was born out of the Israelites. We are not separate from all men who are fallen, and even God's chosen wander and stray from His truth and instruction.
It sounds like Peterson is in the grip of the fear of the Lord. "The beginning of wisdom." It's uncomfortable, but actually a great place to be.
He can scarcely speak of Christ without breaking down and being reduced to tears. I feel like this is a precursor to salvation, being gripped by The Spirit.
Whole - WHOLEheartedly agree.
Wow! Great point !
Absolutely, 100% agreed.
@Nathan Nitai Das I hope I'm still in it!!! I want to be more under the fear of the Lord. It's not a thing to be "over" but an awareness of the reality of the awesomeness of God. Now, there was a time when I feared Him in the negative sense (hopeless, self-condemnation, unconscious unbelief at His salvation) -but that's a whole other thing....
Deep, honest, vulnerable. Why is it so hard to find conversations like this?
Because we are afraid to go deep inside of us, we are afraid of losing ourselfes by understanding who we real are and our real meaning. So we aren t honest first of all with ourself, and obvesly it becomes hard to be honest about this with others.
Yes very succinct and strikes to the heart of many of the issues.
Why are so many people transformed by "tidying their room" is the real question no one wants to talk about.
Because these men have IQs at the 99th percentile and higher
@@tomhudson4719 A high IQ is no help when you are in error, it actually makes it harder to make a correction.
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Let this fear evolve and progress into hope and then finally Love. Stop thinking with your intellect and think with your heart. Much love
P A N O
@@dr.klausschwab6184 This is my channel, now 😎
@@panokostouros7609 not if i delete all your social credits 🤑
Proverbs 3:5, Jeremiah 17:9, Fear is a reverential awe of God. Discernment is key.
Jesus. The crown of thorns. Putting to shame all the prideful kings of the earth.
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and not tried at all. GKC
This is the truth of the matter. Christianity and its transformative teachings have been lost.
@@newdawnrising8110 Would Christ let Himself be forgotten? I guess not. He is the teaching, He is the transformation
Gandhi: “ I like your Christ but not your Christians”. G. was Hindu.
What part has been considered difficult?
@@konyvnyelv. Monogamy, truthfulness, self restraint, abnegation, prayer, sacrifice, honesty, idolatry, theft, drunkenness and ignorance.
This is one of the most important conversations, ever. Jonathan you’re an incredible listener and friend.
Amen
I don't understand what they are saying. I understand the words but what ARE they saying? Can you help?
@@rockysage7760
If it's any consolation I struggled to follow most of the video!
But my summary is that Jordan is (rightly) questioning the truth of Christianity as a result of what he's seen in the church, and in so called believers, today. The overall lack of faith, courage and conviction.
For example, if Christians believe in God why don't they live and act as if they do?
Jordan said in the video that if being at one with God is the case, then "why does the world seem so unredeeemed?". I think there are too many Christians who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour but then they think that they can carry on living as before. Instead, as redeemed children of God, we need to be living out that change and that transformation, by surrendering everything to God and being visibly set apart for Him.
If we don't shine with the knowledge of God and what Christ has done for us, why would anyone in the world feel their need of accepting Him? We are the only bible some unbelievers will ever read. We need to be fighting against the stream on the Lord's behalf, not going 'with the flow'- though that is often the easier option.
It's not about judging other Christians however, but our own hearts. Am I acting as if God (almighty, powerful, Holy, unfailing etc.) exists? Am I acting as if I have been redeemed, and saved for eternity?
Hope that didn't confuse things.
@@rebeccamclaren97 ohh thank you! It's hard to understand what Peterson is trying to say sometimes. English is my second language. But your explaination is clear 👍
I agree that most Christians today (including myself) don't actually understand Christ's teachings all that well. And the church has a big role in that. The scandals, the crimes, blatant hypocrisy everything made people like me alienate ourselves from it.
@@rockysage7760 yes a lot has come in to pollute the church, which doesn't give unbelievers much faith in our beliefs!
Sadly the devil is still trying his best to disrupt the truth and to scatter the saints, dividing churches and making it harder for the world to understand why we believe in God.
But we can pray. Prayer is powerful and even though the world is a mess, and in some ways Christianity is a mess, we know the God Who is able to reach even the hardest of hearts.
In his own words “lack of courage that stops people from bringing into being that union with God”
Or maybe it's a lack of Courage that Prevents People from letting Go of God I can see why the idea of God is comforting for some but reality cares little for my Emotional need
Here is the Original Semitic Text. HERE IS THE ONLY SAVIOR
YaH The Heavenly FATHER HIMSELF was Who they Crucified for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic Scroll:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moses wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
@@Praise___YaH Mere Words from an ancient text are proof of nothing
I love Jordan, not first and foremost for his teachings and what he has to say, but for his sincerity and search for truth and his love for the world.
I feel Jordan's terror of God too. My solution is to ask God for help, continously, in those situations. Sometimes I'm too terrified to even do that, but once my fear is low enough and you are able to ask for help things always turn out okay.
Suggest ask your pastor if he has ever inquired into Orthodoxy. Form an inquiry study group in your church with pastor if possible. Then make appointment with Antiochian or Greek Orthodox priest. Study how Early Church praxis helped them spiritually, not a “ritual.”
Run to the closest orthodox church
@DKLK
God does not want a relationship where you just fear him. He wants a loving relationship. You start by recognizing you SHOULD fear him and that is the beginning of wisdom. What follows is a more intimate connection that is far stronger than fear in itself. God wants you to know he loves you, not that you should just have a respectful fear of him.
The love of God is infinitely gentle.
That is my experience of God's love.
@@hellomate639 me too. 🥹
Three stages of the spiritual life: purgation (moving toward a moral life), illumination (instruction, learning) and union.
Yet a majority of american christians are falling into america's poor moral standards. They truly are the luke warm christians it speaks of in revelations.
Some are ornamental christians, there might be more than you think because some are too afraid to admit even to themselves.. These people go to church for a social hub, they feel good having a place to go, people to talk to. A sense of community that is increasingly rare these days, most people don’t even know or want to know their own neighbor.
Huh.... what about salvation (accepting Jesus' sacrifice for your sins), sanctification (growing closer to God and God's righteuousness helped by the Holy Spirit), and glorification (the bodily transformation at the end of time).
I'm not sure I agree fully, but I get where you're coming from here, Diane. I think a 3-step sanctification process seems oversimplified. It is Father God who draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit attests that Jesus is the Son of God all while Jesus, the Son of God, attests to the Father. At the point that we come into agreement with the fact that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and there is no way to the Father but through Him, we are offered the greatest opportunity to join in the symbiotic relationship between God and mankind we lost when we sinned.
Jesus said come unto me.
Glad I am not the only one on that boat. Born and raised in Church. I know how and what I was taught. Now in my 30s and I ask myself why I truly go to church? Do I truly believe in God? What proof of he's existence and list goes on. Deep down though I still believe but man it feels like a crazy roller coaster ride.
In one place Paul says...
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:12-14
If the apostle Paul was not perfect but still working at it, I think we can look to him as a good example for how to conduct ourselves
Waiting for the day JP joins the Orthodox Church! He certainly helped me find it
I think what a lot of "secular" types are trying to say when they say "mindfulness" is "Worship." It comes so much easier when you have the grandeur of God to inspire you.
Except that your "god" is really satan as proven by the Gnostics 2000 years ago
Thank you Jonathan for being there, you are a good brother in Christ. We pray with you and for what you are doing.
Wow Jordan- born again believer here- struggling with the same things! I am distracted I am attacked by the enemy- Satan's demons, I SO want GOD but I'm SO AFRAID of doing it, I lose friends, I lose physical property, worldly pleasures, etc etc. This is scary. These Are my strongholds and idols. But Jesus has taken me SO far already. He will carry me through. I NEED his grace and mercy and I'm NOT worthy! I don't esteem my time with him and love for Him for what HE has done FOR ME (forgiveness love unmerited grace) when we esteem him pray fast study his word We are transformed into His image. Lord help us.
I wish I could give this video a thousand “likes” my self. Wonderful work, such a blessing.
Around 9:20-9:30 JBP mentions he has seen some priests and monks glow with the love of Christ in their eyes, but that is a level of experience of Christ to which he does not have access. I believe Christ teaches that we all have this close access to him if we ask earnestly for it, if we seek him with all our hearts, and if we knock on the door to his presence. I like these conversations a lot!
"The most difficult task given to mankind, is to fight your own selfish desires... as long as your selfish will rules, you can't pray to God with a clean heart: Your will be done... if you hold on to your own freedom, then you can't be part of the true freedom, where only one will rules."
Tito Colliander: Way Of The Ascetics. (T.C. was a Orthodox writer in Finland between 1930-1981)
It's not a binary of believing and not believing, it's a matter of how confidently you believe. I believe in God enough to go to church on Sunday, but I don't believe in God enough to dedicate 5 hours a week to charity work, for example. The mission is to increase your faith to the point that you will act as though you believe in God in all situations, but most of us just aren't confident enough to make certain sacrifices. At least not yet, but we're getting better at it.
Wisdom is a seed, watching it grow is fascinating.
The critiques are on point. "Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith." I'd add those most closely living in the presence of God are not out seeking attention or doing what the world would notice. A saint lives his own life tapped into divine life-- it's not a single repeated bloom, but the flowering of multitudes.
The wildest cats are often the most appreciative and cuddly when they find out how good man can be. They know sorrow and struggle very well. It is also hardest for them to trust human. For me it is pretty good methafore for what Jordan is talking about
Thanks for sharing
Have a great day!
God Bless! Stay strong, stay safe and take care of yourselves! Wishing everyone the best! Jesus loves you! May the Holy Spirit guide you! 😇 💗🕊
Cheers to a better year buddy! 💞🥂🍻
It would be so great to get more conversations with JP & JBP.
Jordan said their conversations were hard to take at the end of this talk.
Might have something to do with that, I suppose.
I love to hear these great minds talk it out
I really can't stand any talk with Jordan Peterson. He rambles on in such a confusing, non committal, long-winded word salad manner. In another talk, he actually said, "metaphorical substrate". Oh good grief! 🙄
@@tomy8339 this may be true. I get what you’re saying. Sometimes I get frustrated with him, but I think that’s his way of making sense. He has to go through all of that to get to what he wants to say. It’s his idiosyncratic way. He ultimately says the meaningful thing and that’s why he’s so popular. Jonathan likes him.
@Oliver Melo What language? He's supposed to be speaking English.
I think being insufficiently transformed is, for many people a result of being brought up in the church... where attendance and testimony of beliefs are from peer pressure and parental acceptance. Faith is so much a part of the cultural environment, that even people without the faith retain the outer appearances of faith, to remain a part of the culture and community. And that is even a drag on the faithful around them.
It's a actually a privilege hearing from you sir
Everyone is a work in progress. Being in different stages of life, some can take two steps forward and one step back, while this seems to be a pattern of life we all go through, we must strive while making mistakes as we improve
Because it requires more than belief in the cross. It requires that you be placed upon the cross as well.
We as humans are all broken, even priests. We were broken because of the fall. We must be at constant battle against that brokenness along with temptations from the devil that cause us to sin. We were given the sacrament of reconciliation so that we can be forgiven for our sins and get closer to God. We must all be stewards of this for ourselves. In Jesus amazing love he gave this to us. God gave us free will and we either choose to love Him and follow Him or elevating ourselves.
When you meet a Christian you should be amazed and inspired by them such that you should instinctively want to be like them.... but that doesn't or very rarely happen
Being a saint IS EASY said nobody ever....... But I like he's honest.
Amen. Try fasting. Thats something saints do a lot. Most people today are so comfortable they have never thought about starvation. For what? For who? For christ ofcourse. And for his promise of eternal life.
Being a saint is easy. In the old testament its translation is "holy one". You achieve it via God designating you as one. Living it out is impossible without God's assistance.
I know I person, she lives out the Christian life more than anyone I know. The way she cares and help others in need, in a very humble non showing way. It is just that she doesn't believe in God. I am a Christian and I fail constantly even if I at least gives my best try to live as decent as I can. I just can't wrap my mind around it. It creates alit of different questions in me.
I grew up around faithful people who go to church always and have worship sessions whenever possible basically. They were good to each other, but they were not interested in anyone who isn't "one of us". Whereas I wanted to go help victims of rape, addicts, pregnant teens, the homeless, etc.... They all resorted to kicking me out of the family and ostracize me because I chose to mingle with those that God hasn't deemed worthy of his love.
A lot of religious people have a superiority complex because of their invisible magical friend. They think that they are "blessed", and those who have strayed from the path that I wanted to help were "doomed and damned", because God reaches out to those who love and deserve him or some other bullshit verse.
I left my faith, turned to a decade long search of another faith, but I just saw more of the same wherever I turned my head. And I've traveled far and wide in my search. Lived in a dozen different countries, couple different continents. It's all the same, just a different coat of paint.
You don't need an invisible judge to make you go do good deeds so you don't burn in hell and go to heaven.
You can do good deeds with no expectations of reward, and that, to me, is the biggest reward.
"All fall short to the glory of God" .... No one gets closer, but the effort to be better is the key, I don't want to hurt my friend, and if I do, does this mean I don't love my friend, no, we make mistakes, and our intention is not to hurt them... a relationship is work, but to not put effort then it's doom to fail.... you can only take one day at a time, don't let it hinder yourself with the past
Grace, Jordan, grace.
He still believes Man can actually achieve the level of Christ...
If I'm not mistaken Jorden's daughter Mikhaila is a Christian which is a comfort to those of us who see Jordan's struggle with his faith and pray for his salvation. Maranatha!
I wonder if Peterson has ever read about the martyrdom of the earliest Christians. I’m sure he’d be completely astounded by them. They genuinely lived like they believed there was an eternal reward waiting for them.
My two favourite minds from the internet 💖 we all have fear, but fear is not from God, God gave us the spirit of power and of love and a sound mind 🥰
“See I lay a stumbling stone in Zion, that causes men to fall.”
Fail ?
@@stevenlight5006 It’s actually fall. As in the trip over it. Christ goes on to say that people will either stumble over the stone, the corner stone of the new temple (himself) or they will be crushed by it. Jesus is making the point that humanity will have to struggle with the freight of his reality.
We ALL fall short of the Glory of God
So convicting. What a real and logical argument.
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i learned so much now its not that hard at all it makes you feel good when you surrender to god and act how he wants you to act
Acts thru you is way
I'll have to paraphrase and I'm not sure who said it, but the expression was something like this: "You do not judge the effectiveness of a medicine by someone who does NOT take it as prescribed."
Truly, this is the question that I took the time to ask before I would have let go of my faith.
I went to the Book of Job to study this, then I went to Jesus's words. And I prayed to see what Jesus could see, to say that The kingdom of God is among you. And my eyes were opened to a wonder that I had only read about in scripture but had never before seen or felt.
How wide is the way to perdition? And how many people walk it!?
How narrow is the way to Life?
And how few people find it?
I am one of these people who cry, when my body cannot contain the joy.
So what did you learn
Yeah what did you learn?
@@gingfreecss3808 For one: what it really visceraly feels like to love my neighbour as myself, two: to sense the value of each human life, and three: I could see a bright beauty that permeates the world before us, in every existing thing.
This is not to mention what ultimate personal life lessons I was set (that day) to journey through, following from the interactions I had after that prayer. It was the start of a path that has led me to a career that combines my scientific studiea with my religious preoccupation with biblical music, to name one.
@@neilhorsley343 see below.
@@Yamikaiba123 thank you
I never thought I would care so much about the thoughts of a couple of Canadians.
Bwahahahah!
Because you need to purge what is not correct first in order to be available to be illumined by that truth and only then through true humbleness may be united with truth himself.
This is good work Jonathon.
I hope and pray these things sink in, and that the cracks of Jordan's heart opens up to that very thing.
Blessed are the small in mind, for they have no room to doubt.
Flesh is weak, this physical body, desires so much, and ultimately we give in, .... this is why many (not all) get addicted to things, cheat on a love one, hurt those we love, do bad things, ect... our conscience, spirit, heart, whatever fight these urges... I'm not a perfect human being, I try to do better, but that's not to say I won't fail
Yes!
Distractions come from attachments. If you want to eliminate distractions, detach. Detach from everything except God. Detach from your ego, your possessions, even your family and friends. You can still own your stuff and love your peeps, but you must detach from them. Because at some point, you will have to let them go. You cannot take them with you when you die. All you really have is your soul. And we owe our souls to God alone.
Completely detached from my family, it was hard. I still love them and wish them well but I dont talk to my brothers...you cannot be anymore woke or leftist than them. They attacked me relentlessly, tried to turn my parents against me with lies and shcemes. Truely the devil works through them. They know not what they do, I had to detach to save my life.
Genesis 2:7 says we are a living soul not have a soul we are a soul.
@@sooperd00p Forgive your brother
Agreed, only following God / Jesus and to bring other souls to heaven with you are the only pursuits worth doing anymore. God bless each one.
Freedom has a price. Self sacrifice for self.
Dedication to ‘God’ is not playing religion and constraining your mindset out of fear. It is dedication to bringing forth one’s self. How is this not evident?
Jonathan Pageau you are amazing!!!!!
Beautiful Jordan, give yourself permission to come before God without the banner of your powerful intellect, ever so simply, as a little child.
Jonathan, I love your laughter -- it is a truth in itself. "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."
God always has a remnant… I really hope that my life leads others to God, not away from Him. Jesus came to serve others, not dominate them. We are all called to love… first God then others.
the world says serve GOD by worship
GOD says our service is our worship.
What do you do when you open your heart no mind in a charismatic church service and God actually talks to you? Or, as in my case, beams concepts directly into your heart and mind and fills you with a joy that surpasses anything you have ever known?
One thing is that I have absolutely no doubt that he exists and that he is who he claims to be. Now, nearly five decades and innumerable similar experiences later, and after thousands of hours of bible study and church attendance, all I can say is that the original sin in me, and my own stubbornness and willfulness has prevented me from being transformed anywhere near what I should have been.
At the end of my days, all I can do is throw myself upon the mercy of the court. This is my only hope.
It took a long time for me to realize that it doesn’t matter at all what people do or how they act out of concert with their beliefs. In a way it’s all we can do.
Humbling ourselves to walk the path despite this leads to experiential knowledge. From this foundation, converts like myself, can build belief. Reading the lives of the Saint. Heck. Read about the catacomb Saints of Russia during communism to see people behaving as if their beliefs matter.
The west has largely, almost totally lost this connection. And it’s Western ‘Christianity’ that is always straw-manned because it’s just that...a collection of straw men in the face of their own actions as an institution, not practicing individuals.
This is a great, very profound conversation and is based in true examples of Christians that reached their theosis! I am a Christian Orthodox and indeed there are still nowadays many examples of those people that reached theosis. And this wasn't only a result of "good deeds" but most important through understanding and accepting their sinfulness and the gift of salvation from God, through Jesus Christ. Because, no matter how many good deeds a human being will do, its not enough to reach theosis without understanding how sinful man is and how great the mercy of God is! Those people have ripped off their egos and let the Holy Spirit fill that place, so God shows his glory through them. They lives are true devotion to God's will.
And the results are just heavenly! And yet, although they can do literally marvels, ( as for example elder Porfirios, elder Paisios and many many others), they are sooooo humble and selfless! But since most of them are monks that devoted themselves to God, the question is, is it possible to reach theosis through our daily lives, in our families, in our jobs and activities by going only once per week to the church? And is it theosis important to our salvation? Well bible gives all those answers and more.
Jordan Peterson should read “Not of this World: The Life and Teachings of Fr. Seraphim Rose”. I’m sure he would thoroughly enjoy that book.
Dan Mohler can explain this subject like no other!!!
"Lack of courage" That's something a lot of us struggle with. Screw Nietzsche.
John 3:8
King James Version
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
I understand Peterson’s point of view. 💔❤️🩹
I was born again!!! :)!
When you are with God, holding His hand which is always offered for us to take, you begin to be shown your own sins, and your futility in all that has passed. Even in forward movement, your wretched futility is revealed. Yet you have that gift of being held in His hand! Absorbing this takes years upon years upon years. And you may not change much at all. Still a terrible sinner. In the meantime you are commanded to love your brother as your Lord loves you. The idea they are sinners yet, falls to ashes. For you begin to perceive if dimly, you, the sinner, cannot judge them!!! All you can do is love them as your Father loves you. The judgement seat in the world dissolves as a great betrayer of God and brethren! And we are left on the ground, prostrate in our sin alone. Our Lord and His Saints above and we all equal below.
Glory to thee O God!
Glory to thee!
Brilliant conversation. Thank you.
A relationship with Christ is important to grow. Church is His body, not a building.
Level of peace, rest, attention towards Christ. No idols. No current life, have to have desires. Live modestly and humbly in this current life, knowing the temporal talent you develop is from Him. The relationship we have with Him has just begun.
People are flawed, you can always make the argument that people aren’t sufficiently transformed for that reason.
They are on different wavelengths. Jordan talks about transformation of people in the world, Jonathan gives examples of celibate monks and priests with radiance in their eyes or "gift of tears". Everyone could climb to those hights in the security of the monastery where all you do is pray and fast, sheltered from the world. I mean great for your divine gift of tears, ever tried to teach a class of unruly teenagers or done a factory shift among people who use cussing as their only language?
Show us, Jonathan, a Christian who has to earn their bread in the world full of unbelievers, while raising children and facing economic insecurity who is truly transformed by their faith. Far between, and even your enlightened monks are rare. Jonathan is clearly inspired by his long dead saints and monastic Mavericks.
Jordan is approaching it in a much more down to earth way, and asks how can a common person have the courage to take on such great responsibility... "Fear of the Lord" is the only natural response for anyone who is treating matters of faith seriously. This why it is called Awe, a mix of love and fear... Grace is a gift, but a gift that does not remove responsibility.
As someone else commented, how do you know someone is not transformed? For example, many may look at Mike Lindell and see your stereotypical conservative Christian guy, maybe not so impressive to you, maybe even annoying to you, but before that he was a drug addict. Transformation is relative.
Also, it is a mistake to think God has ordained for everyone the utmost heights of heroic virtue. Holiness for many may take a more humble and subtle virtue; a patient and dedicated mother, a man who perseveres through many stumbles, a deathbed convert whose last thought is of repentance and love of God...
Why not give everything up for God.
He promises eternal life.
After all we've done wrong against ourselves and his law. We can try to make up for it with this one mortal life.
@@sapereaudeart3664 There is no making up for our sin. Works righteousness is the quickest way to condemnation. We must cast ourselves at the finished work of Christ. I'm very sympathetic to Dr. P's thesis here...on my best day, my works are as "filthy rags" compared to the purity and holiness of God.
@@mikeseeley1042 wdym condemntation
@@sapereaudeart3664 Eternal damnation. You know, Hell.
@@mikeseeley1042 but the devil accuses us and makes us feel condemned. if we have the lord then we are not condemned. amen. and also good works are a good thing, its a sign of your faith and spreading the gospel, the truth of jesus christ. we are even commanded to spread the good news. amen.
Yahweh you’ve changed me so much. You’ve been true to all your promises. Decrease me, increase You. Nothing on this earth compares, just let me never forget or ignore.
Romans 7-24-25 1 Timothy 1:15-16 Amen
Your answer is here: worship. As you stay, prefer, pursue God, the more you will know him, experience him and obey him. Like a disciple who follows and is tough by the teacher. That doesn't mean we are perfect. That means that we are learning and growing into the will on God.
Very wonderful - off course the monks of the Eastern Orthodox tradition have well understood the importance o being at peace. Such a simple proposition, such a simple idea, yet who is it that has that.... Peace is the key to the tradition Jesus was trying to invite people into - yet what have we got - dissention and academic polemic - which is in exchange for what - so some intellectual idea or peace of mind knowing who you are and what you are here to do!! Do NOT over think it!
Transformation means different things to different people, though. One person changing just a bit can be more significant than another person changing dramatically because it means more to him and is harder to accomplish. God deals with each person as an individual, and there's no fair way to compare one to another.
God bless you both 🙏🏽❤️☦️
Well said distraction is the biggest problem
What a great conversation.
Reminds me of Luther's conversion who pre-conversion had that awareness of God and was crushed by it because he knew that he had to be righteous and could never be righteous enough. Peterson sounds like that. Then Luther read Romans and found the amazing truth, that the real gospel is the gift of perfect righteousness in Christ to all those who see that this is the faith in Christ that God asks us for. That faith sets us free. That faith is an actual spiritual reality, a faith union with Christ with the Holy Spirit now in us, which did not exist before. Now, there is power to change, change begins, even as we admit we, Christians, are not yet all that we will be. Nonetheless, our light together, shines like a city on a hill, like faint stars but nonetheless guiding stars in the blackness around us as we hold out the word of hope.
That truth truely transformed me into a loving being so connected no limit.
There is no hate like Christian "love"
@alphabet people love for the truth and how to follow the truth, is in the instructions. We can't side with what is Ill. We have to have a sound mind, and that doesn't make a person have the right to not have humility. But the rightous heart knows. So because I'm Christian, people believe, I'm weak ,soft, and submissive.But the truth is I'm powerful because I get it from GOD'S word. IAM very very soft to those that deserve it and I'm hard the same. And I only submit to GOD
maybe I am wrong on that, but your explanation to Jordan Peterson just confirm his point, even more when you talk about the hierarchy and the "saints".
The message of the Cross.
It is and always will be the answer.
By their fruits Ye shall know them.
Many are called.
Few are chosen.
When the standard is perfection(christ). Any imperfection by its very nature not just distant but categorically distinct. Because in my mind my faith is akin to jiminy cricket steering me away from evil (more so than towards light). I have come to ask myself what would I be without christ even with my good family and christian upbringing the thoughts I hold as my own are unclean. It is the thoughts "borrowed from christ" that people applaud me with and say what "a good man you've become"
Beautiful humility, I think what you say is true about borrowing from Christ
This might sound strange... In seeking God's face, I feared the closer I'd get I would go blind. So, I chose to rather avert my eyes and learned the true test of my faith.
I tink Amndemo below hit the nail on the head. It is the difficulty of the path. Christ did not command others to worship him. He commanded them to take up their cross (the physical body and existence with all of its frailty) and follow him. So we are commanded not to go to church and repeat a few words and perform a few signs, no matter how sincere the sentiment behind those acts. We are to be in our desert for 40 days. We are to be tried and tested, and to not give in. We are to pray in Gethsemane. We are to walk up Calvary. We are to suffer in Golgotha. It is daunting. I have had two near death experiences. I have had a stroke which left me blind (I recovered my eyesight). And I have suffered terminal renal failure, now on dialysis. These things have allowed me to drink deeply of water I once took sips of. Is it difficult? Yes. But, oh so worth. it.
No relationship starts with 100% understanding and trust; and no action properly goes far beyond what level of trust has already been built; trust must be built, and that takes work, attention and time. You start as a mustard seed and fulfill your real potential at that level; be honest and humble about what level you’re at-it’s the reality, the truth; live by the truth. Then as you continue to strive to fulfill that potential, your real potential naturally grows; accordingly, one should endure in pushing forward to try and fulfill their real potential at whatever level they are in the growth process. Real relationships deal in reality (though aspiring to ideals is part of that reality). Real relationships grow; God knows He started us out at zero, and that maybe we’ve gone backwards into the negative. God deals in the reality of where we are and gives us ideals for proper orientation and growth (even if perfect sustained attainment is not possible for us in this life). Unconditional love means not giving up on loving someone, in helping them start, grow and sustain, and return and rebuild.
Although the Bible doesn’t directly say it, the saying that “God accepts you just the way you are” is true if you properly understand what you are. You are a seed growing to eventually bear more n more good fruit and then multiply the number of trees that bear good fruit. If you are static then you are either dead or doomed to die.
Just start.
The whole talk was great but this part was awesome!
So beautifully communicated! This is me. ... All that was said
The bad news always makes more noise than the good. 100 good deeds gets overshadowed by 1 bad deed. True Christians are to be a living sacrifice dying daily to selfish desires which involves a daily, sometimes moment by moment, surrender to Gods will but is driven by love for God based on His love and Grace for and to us. It can be simple to understand but complicated to live out because of many things and reveals our dependence upon Him. Plus like others have said some are Christians in name only.
Striving against sin is no small task. Hebrews 12 talks about this.
It is true, the ego-mind would crumble and ultimately be annihilated by the thought God exists in Truth. Achieving thesis is ego annihilation, which terrifies the ego-mind.
As professing Christians, there should be something very different about us! Our example should make others want what we have.
The biggest problem the believer has at conversion is understanding that until they have sought, asked, seeked and knocked to prevail in prayer for the GIFT of the filling, anointing and immersion in The Holy Spirit as promised in Acts, they will remain powerless to serve the Lord in a transformitive way and that would manifest to the world! We are commanded to keep on being filled with the Spirit of God. Until the world sees believers with power transformed by love and filled with joy, we appear no different than they.